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Leadership in Colour from Shez Iqbal, Powered by Media For All [MEFA]
Leadership in Colour showcases outstanding leaders of colour sharing their personal journeys, offering valuable insights and advice, and highlights their current projects. Join us to hear from these inspiring leaders and expand your perspective on leadership.
Leadership in Colour from Shez Iqbal, Powered by Media For All [MEFA]
Episode 22 - The Power of Diversity: Growth Mindset with Matthew Chapman - Part 2
What happens when leadership meets empathy?
In this inspiring episode, Matthew Chapman, CEO of SBFM, shares how he rose from humble beginnings in Bradford to leading with purpose and people-first values. From mentoring lessons at The Guardian to humanising the cleaner, Matt’s story redefines what leadership truly means.
He talks candidly about imposter syndrome, the importance of feedback, and how to stand out by doing the right thing — even when no one’s watching.
A conversation packed with warmth, humour, and insight for anyone ready to lead with heart and courage.
🔥 Listen now and rediscover leadership in colour.
Your feedback is always welcome, as we strive to enhance the content's value for you. Enjoy Leadership in Colour - Voices you may not have heard from before.
Today's tone of conversation is going to be different to what you've experienced in the past. It's not a nervous energy, it's the fact that I'm catching up with someone that I've known for years.
SPEAKER_00:I'm Matthew Chapman, I'm chief exec of a company called SBFM. But if you would really know who I am, I'm some guy who was born in Bradford, West Yorkshire. And nothing more, nothing less. Matthew means gift from God. Which is ironic, because my older brother's called Calton, which means like the geeky guy from freshman to Belair. If a cleaner goes sick in most businesses, you're lucky if they even get a call to see if they're okay. What they do is go, cleaner's sick, can you get someone else in? That's that's that's cattle. That is like, yeah, get someone else in because in building you could not. Whoa, Matt didn't turn up today. Are you okay, Matt? If I didn't turn up to my job or you didn't, they'd check in on you. They'd expect you to take some time. No, here they're like looking to replace you in this industry. We've humanised the cleaner. It's a big piece of empowerment, and we're using tech to help people showcase when they've been productive and build out their TVs. There is companies with 100,000 workforce who could do this. It doesn't cost a thing, really, if you think about it. Doing the right thing. Doing the right thing.
SPEAKER_01:I started so much more. I'm taking it. Welcome to Leadership in Colour. But let me introduce you to my good friend Matthew Chapman. You you you know you've had these great leaders, you you've you've had some uh leaders that you know perhaps have some room to grow as well. But but talk to me about the role of uh mentors and and allies. Because for me at The Guardian, you were very much um an ally, and at some point it's a bit of a mentor, because even though I'd worked in media for a bit before, um, and it and it wasn't my first job, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't my first sales job, getting, you know, having someone who can take you under their wing and show you the lay of the land and and how things operate here is help helps you accelerate and propel forward. Right. So I I really value that part of our relationship as well. And and I and I still have you know come to you on occasion for your feedback and your thoughts on various different things throughout my career, but that there must have been people that played that role for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, there's there's many. And forgive me if I don't mention all by name, but there are many. There's a recent teacher who sadly passed away, I think, last last year, but he was a guy called Bob Ellis. He like I was playing rugby, but I was new to this um school, very lucky to go to an um all boys private school that felt out of place because really our family didn't have the money to do that, so it was like bursaries and scholarships out um got me and my brother there. However, this guy like took me aside and like would talk to me about actually just you can actually be as fast as these other guys or as fit, which is ironic now in later life, those disciplines go away because you prioritize other things. But this guy like would coach me if you wanted to be really good at rugby, why don't you try doing plymetrics? And I was like, Plymetrics, I've never even heard of polymetrics at the time. Some people probably things have moved on to all different types of training, be it you know high rocks or crossfit or whatever people do. But this guy was talking about plymetrics and using like the you know the resistance spans back then, and then it gave me fit a long distance running, anyways. He was saying actually you can do it, you just have to go through the pain to get the game. And I remember how many times used to do this run before um every month called the five-minute run, because one guy who was an Olympic runner did it in five minutes, and you you couldn't you couldn't get near it. And I remember when I first did it, it was like 18 minutes, and by the time the last ever won, I just ran as fast as kind of like six minutes, 30 something amazing, which was amazing, like literally amazing. But this was if that guy had taken your side and keep investing in me and telling me you can actually do it, you can do it, push you when you're like exhausted and uplift you. I don't know, some of my work ethic may not be there because you're gonna get pained and bumps on the way. I think I look at some of the people coming into you know, starting their career journeys in our business, and they don't understand that life doesn't or just go like that. It is literally sometimes, as you said, you learn through hardship or making mistakes, or there is pain, or sometimes it's not nine to five, you have to go a bit further. Instagram reels will tell you when your company tells you to do an extra hour.
SPEAKER_01:So the reality is that yeah, that Instagram life that we get sold, I feel like it's um it's depressing. I actually think it's quite depressing, like it's meant to be motivating.
SPEAKER_00:The irony is someone behind it is doing the post to accelerate their own earnings, yeah. Because they know like the dramatic or the emotive thing that they really, you know, it's a bit like the newspaper headlines that don't have to tell you. It's absolutely that. And people are like, yeah, but people believe in that. If my company gets me a pizza, yeah, is that it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What about the people who from my colleagues in our business don't even get pizza? We had an ice cream van coming to work the other day, and I had two people say thank you. I don't expect it, wasn't actually even just my idea, but two people said thank you. And I bet there'd be a proportion high percent, like, is this it? There's people out there working below the national real living wage, and they ain't getting any ice cream, anyways. To the point, there is this thing where actually people forget how important it is to work hard and they but they still expect the reward. And the two risk and reward, work hard, put where you know, if I get hit the gym every single day, I'd be much trimmer. Yeah, that's hard. It's hard. I find it easier to go to work than it go to the gym. I make more time in work because I find it easier than going to the gym because that is pain. But going back to your mentorship point, this teacher really talked about that, and all it is is then what are your choices and your disciplines in life. Other mentors I've had, um, I had one where I had a boss who we used to clash all the time, but he used to tell me, Do you think or do you know? A bit like a guardian fact and opinion, very similar, him as a product. Do you think or do you know? And then you that made me feel like I needed to find out the facts before I come with a business proposal or a case or a sales pitch, or saying, like, this is the way we're gonna go with marketing. I don't know, I needed to back it up. Don't just come with things that are just made up in your head. And then I had a I had an actual coach and mentor who talked about that very thing. A lot of like a lot of people, a lot of leaders, imposter syndrome, wonder how you look, wonder how you sound, worry about what people really think, will they take me seriously? And then I've got like uh this coach who's like, that's in your head. Who's ever said that to you? And I'm like, no one. I sat in a hotel lobby, just me and him chatting, and there's nobody in his lobby, and the um lady behind the bar cranks up the music. I'm thinking, is she trying to drown us out so she didn't have to hear to us? And he's like, Well, well, Matt, you got that wrong, that's in your head. What if she was thinking, oh, there's only those two, maybe they want to hear some music. I convinced myself she was being rude and she did it to annoy us. I went over politely and said, Can I can I turn down the music? Is it okay? She went, Yeah, sorry. I thought I was doing the music to help you because it was just you guys and thought you wanted to. And he was absolutely right. You create these pictures of insecurities and messaging in your head.
SPEAKER_01:She was blatantly lying.
SPEAKER_00:She didn't hear my channel.
SPEAKER_01:These are two of them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh sorry.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't think it was anything to do. She was like, dude, this this is a slow shit.
SPEAKER_00:You know, she was like, Yeah, these guys are all I can do is hear them chatting about work.
SPEAKER_01:If these two weren't in here, I could just close up. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:She was ready, she was ready just to go on a lunch or whatever it was.
SPEAKER_01:So I I think that the um the value of uh allies and mentors is um is understood, but how do you make sure that you pick that little note up, that little nugget up, and you carry it forward? Because do you think or do you know? I think that's great. That's a great phrase. And that there was, I know it wasn't hers, but there was another manager, actually, ironically, at the guardian, who did the whole uh fail to prepare, prepare to fail kind of thing, right? And uh it was annoying, the context of it was completely annoying, and and I I won't I won't go into that, but but it's uh I think the fact that it was at an annoying moment meant that it just stuck with me. And there was something that you said to me when we used to go about running was is it really gonna kill you? And there was I remember that, yeah. And there were so many times like you know, I've run a marathon, I've done that a couple of months and something.
SPEAKER_00:And do you remember that first run?
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, I was the first thing, yeah. I was done uh with the first. I mean, I've been got over the first time. The first thing was I remember the hands on knees, I remember. But but but the point is that sometimes you don't realise the little nuggets of wisdom that are going to propel you forward, or the conversations or the advice they're going to so how do you make sure that you that you you keep them and you use them, keep them and you apply them. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:It's a really good question. Um, I uh this I think for me personally, everyone's got their own little ways, be it write it, write it down. Me personally, I like I remember so many things. Like it's like a blessing and a curse, like on a night when people should be asleep. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm remembering like I don't know, a rugby try in 1994, or what someone said, like you said, because the same person I think who said that comment to you about failing to prepare, used to say to me, instead of saying um, just say in your head, I pause and I breathe. And they were talking about their um, I think they trained in theatre, or and they were saying, I pause and I breathe, all an um is is a breath. And I still use our work, it's just say in your head, slow it down, pause and I breathe. So I still say um, but I very less than some people that I hear from in um business. I truthfully, I just think that's good. Books I read, I'm like, I like that, it just I can keep it, but use it and it becomes a thing. So the pause and a breathe. I use it when I talk to people who ask me for mentorship or some advice. I also some things that I see when not so good, I just try and do the opposite, and then I reflect there's amount of times at the minute I've got a um an executive officer, so who supports me, works with me very closely, and I'll finish a meeting and I might be on camera and it might be a broadcast, and I'll turn and I'll be like, How was that? Could I could I've done anything better? And taking actually asking that question, taking that feedback helps me adjust how we'll do it. And to be honest, sometimes I'll look and this person will go, Yay, don't say that next time, or you know, you sounded like you were being a bit too direct. I'll I'll actually take it on board. And I think a lot of people won't, they get like high opinions. But when you're imposter syndrome, you question and you actually go, actually, yeah, okay, let me adapt that and add it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's see if you can relate to this because there were definitely moments in my life where I'd done things and I've asked for advice, but what I'm actually asking for is a celebration. So I'm saying to you, how did I do? But what I really want you to do is say, Yeah, man, you were great, you were amazing. And I and I want to have that high, right? Like I want I want the colour.
SPEAKER_00:It looks very human, but but then it's yeah, that lifts up the dopamine hit and the excitement.
SPEAKER_01:But it got me that there was a certain point in my life where I really did not want that, and I wanted actual advice, support, guidance, something to say, as you said, you know, probably don't say that next time, or you could you could have said that a little bit differently, or whatever. And I don't know if it's maturity that gets you there, I don't know if it's experience that gets you there, but but can you relate to that?
SPEAKER_00:Like what did you find a moment in your life where you switched, or is it different moments where yeah, switching from wanting just to hear what your brain to feel good to actually wanting constructive or direct feedback? Exactly. I've always wanted direct feedback because most of my securities are telling me negative thoughts, but sometimes you don't you don't know. Back to the do you think or do you know? I don't know how people took to me as a chief exec coming into this business because it was owned and run by another chap. I don't know, what did I do? I asked every single month and still do every single month a survey to frontline colleagues separate to head office for two surveys. How are you feeling? Are you happy? Is there any other suggestions? Because I needed to know if I'm doing a good or bad job. That's how it started. It's very much a well-being social value survey now. But it was like, I didn't I didn't know. Very often you don't get, well, very little. Do you get someone telling you you've done a good or bad job? And to your point, you get people who, for whatever reason, don't want to tell you the truth, they want to tell you, ah, that was great. And then behind your back, they'll be like, Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:But it's something that you've done to create an environment where people can also give you that feedback. So a couple of months ago, our CEO was over and he asked me this question. Um I just said, um, see, now I'm catching myself. You asked me this question, you asked me this question, if you were in my role, what would you be doing differently right now?
SPEAKER_00:That's a good question.
SPEAKER_01:And genuinely, for a second, I was thinking, I'm still pretty new in this gig. How honest can I be? And I had to stay true to myself. So I was honest and I gave him the feedback.
SPEAKER_00:I've always been like that. It's what I love.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, I really appreciate that. So I I had to be honest, and I just told him how it was, and and he took it very took it, he took it really well, and we had a great conversation about it, and we you know looked at ways we could improve that that thing. I mean, as as it stands, the organization is great, but there's a couple of things that of course can always be tweaked in in every organization, but he's also created that environment where I felt comfortable to share that feedback, and and that that's one of the things I really like about it.
SPEAKER_00:Well he's asked for it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But he's asked, yeah, that's true. He's asked for it.
SPEAKER_00:He's asked for it, but it's interesting. It's a great, great book, and I tell people all the time in our business, humankind. Okay, read this book, humankind, and it talks like people can, and it's quite a grim, but it can push a button or make an action when they don't look the eye into the eye of a human. So, you know, a lot of things that you see in war is actually it's not physically a lot of the time someone pulling a trigger whilst they're looking at someone, it's someone pushing a button or in a plane or in a mechanical thing that they don't actually see the impact. So, therefore, humans struggle to actually tell you what you really think because they don't want to look you in the eye and do it in the metaphorical sense of pulling a trigger. So, bringing it making this relevant, my point is how different when you think differently, one of our values, no no coincidences, are you if you can empower and tell per someone that they what even if they're right or wrong, or you but it's your opinion on something that they want to hear, and they can take it, the person receiving it can take it or leave it, but they're gonna respect you that you're not just telling them what they want to know. The whole executive officer role that I've got is it's like my mini shadow board because I don't know everything, I don't even know this demographic of this person is different to me, and I'm the world's moving at a rapid pace, and I'm learning new words and new takes, and I can't just believe that everything that we learn at The Guardian and telling people carry a pen. Most people in our business are using remarkables and they don't even have a pen. And chat gaps might not be a different thing. And prospecting isn't about funds, you know, they're on LinkedIn or using whichever AI tools I need to learn, and I need this person and other people to tell me things that I may not know or things I need to adjust to continue to improve. I respect that person more than someone who goes, You look great today, Matt. When actually I might have chive in my tooth, booger up my nose, or stains on my top, and I should have dressed differently. That that's the flex. That is the real play, isn't it? Someone who tells, could look you and actually not do what most other people will do, which is tell you just what you want to hear. How will you improve?
SPEAKER_01:I was at this festival uh industry event recently, and this guy walked past me who I didn't know, and um he'd very clearly eaten a donut, like like you know it's like sugar cover, and he had it like all and I was in the middle of a conversation with someone, and it was a really important conversation, like it was someone that I was trying to get hold of for for a while. So I'm just guys going past, and I'm thinking if I don't say something, he's gonna end up in a situation. So I just quickly just scrambled on it. I think you've had a donut, and and you you just you just you just got a little bit something there, and it transpires that this guy was also someone that I wanted to talk to, like, and he sort of joins our conversation into this and the the point isn't that you might be able to get something back, no no he but he appreciated the fact that I pulled him up on it and I just sort of and I I didn't want to show him up or anything. I said, give me a second, and I just grabbed a cigarette and say, Oh, but he's running past, right? Not running past, walking past, past I said, mate, I think you know, and and he and he and he tied himself up and and we just laughed it off and then you moved forward, right? But I I think it's we're also gonna look out for each other. It's not even just like giving people compliments. I think you're looking for someone in a situation where they're going to not be their best self.
SPEAKER_00:Correct. Listen, this is that thing is why you are where you are and why you successful succeed because you helped. Just like you're saying this this podcast is uplift. You said to me before we even started, I want to uplift, I want you to look good, you want to you know protract the things that will empower other people or inspire. It's the same thing that you did not want that guy to have a bad day, look bad, or bring him down, and he will remember that, and that's why I don't know, call it karma, or you give to receive the good things after that energy. Turned out that guy was something that you did for business purposes need to know, and then remember how you made him feel, you supported him and embarrassed him at the same time. But you supported him, I'm joking, I'm joking. You you told him something that he needed to know and you helped make his day better. That's that's the flex.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, man. Right? If you were to give advice to those individuals just starting up in in the world of work, right? What advice would that be?
SPEAKER_00:In the world of work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'd say in the industry, but the reality is that actually I think it transcends any advice that transcends all industries.
SPEAKER_00:Um it's a really good question. And I feel like I'm gonna quote something from the musical Hamilton, because I referenced it earlier. Sure, sure, sure. Uh one of my favourite musicals, by the way. Um but like what are you gonna be remembered for? Like and to be remembered, so we all talk about building allies, and we talked about you know mentors and coaches, but also if you talk about your question, which was to help your career journey, there's a lot of competition out there. What are you going to be remembered for? What is going to be your authentic way? Because remember, I said like our business needs to do what all those other people are doing, need to do one or two things that they don't dare to do, so the whole thing differently thing. I think the biggest advice is it might be the sugar donut example. You know, are you gonna be that person who calls out the sugar donut, the sugar in the face? Are you gonna be the everyone else? So you need to think about how you can stand out professionally and still you know be light and collaborate with people. I think you absolutely need to think like what are you gonna do that they're not going to do so that you can get ahead. I think some of the best sports people, the Cristiano Ronaldos and Messies, they need to do something to beat that defender. And there's only some that will do a bit of flare, a step over, or a trick. The people who just do the same old, same old are gonna get tackled. So you're gonna be there to do something different. Um, you didn't ask me, and it hopefully not your next question, because I remember the programme, but in leadership, in leadership, so that's like in career journey, you know, if you're gonna be an administrator, what are you gonna do differently? So you get that vibe. But in leadership, I always think the best things that I was told are um the best things I was told were these four leadership styles, which you'll you'll probably relate to this, but four leadership styles. My uh one of my business coaches told me is be collaborative. So that's when you get everyone around a table and say, and we want to go to the moon, and you want everyone with you and them to be part of building it. Then there's this straightforward and I would need you to I don't know, set up for this podcast, please. That's a straightforward direction, so you have that persona, and then there's this one that some other people just won't do, which is restore order. Some people will not look to the point that we've talked about someone in the eye and go, that is not acceptable. I'm not asking you a straightforward thing, I'm telling you you need to do this. And some leaders have to, you can't be everybody's friend. At some point, a leader has to tell someone to do something that they may not want to do, and not everybody will front into that. And you do this really well, you do it professionally in your style, but you still can get people to do things that they might not want to do. And then the fourth person, which is where some people fall down on ego, is understand when it's complex. When it's complex and you're out of your depth, and you might need someone who knows more, that's cool, that's all right. Me going on, I don't even know how to change statuses on Instagram, it's too complex for me. I might need to ask someone who knows better, or it might be a legal thing in business sense where I'm not like the litigator, and I might need someone to take counsel and advise me. And too many people think they know they don't, they just think it goes back to that thinking, nothing. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I I think it's really good advice. There's two points really. So on the first one, from a from a grassroots level, I do feel like just being good at your function isn't enough.
SPEAKER_00:Correct, that's it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So so you you do need to stand out. If if there are um 10 people in your function, there's probably only two people above you, right? So how just using arbitrary numbers, so how are you going to be one of the 10? And and if it's a sales job as an example, just having great sales isn't enough, right? Because organizations have figured out that great salespeople aren't always great leaders or managers. So I I mean that's that's that's brilliant advice. And and it's it's stuff that I used to talk to my team about at Critio as well, which is you know try and uh lean in on some of the projects within the organization, try and work out you know what else is going on. You don't have to be a thought leader, but you can follow other thought leaders and bring insight from the frontline back. And and on the final, you know, on the second thing, which is you know, from a leadership perspective, I think it's um it's not just there are these four areas, it's it's actually understanding that each situation might require a different level or different style of leadership, but in in that final bit where you can call in other people, it's the part of that ego, man. Because on occasion, you feel like you've been in a role for too long, or you've been in an organization for too long to be able to ask a question. Like the great thing about starting out new in a role or new in a company is you feel like you've been given this green light to ask stupid questions, yeah. And for the first six months, everyone's like, Oh, there's no such thing as a dumb question, Matt. You know, don't worry about it. And then after six months, your worry, and it's could be a reality that people can say, but he's been here for six months. Like, how does he not know this by now? Don't worry about that. Like, park that and just just ask the questions if you need to ask the question or or you know, solicit that um that support. I I think it's that's brilliant advice.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, and it's not it's not mine. Someone, to your point earlier, someone said, Yeah, play play those personas, yeah, find your own customization of those personas, like your own way to articulate yourself or to dress, but just absolutely that last one. Just know when you might be out of your depth or you don't understand and get someone to advise you. And I think a lot of don't know, I'll get confused with all the different generation terms, but a lot of people are that's where chat GPT is playing a good role. There's a lot of people who are getting access to information, some people are using it not correctly and losing that human interaction where I'm actually reading emails and like that's you just put that in chat GPT, you're not even thinking about what you're writing.
SPEAKER_01:However, people By the way, you send me something on Chat GPT, I am gonna call it out. I find it hilarious, so I I do call that stuff out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I and I know you probably would. I I allow it, but I just think to myself, okay, but you're actually ChatGPT is missing the human connection often than not. And um, but anyways, the point is some people are using Chat GPT. Is that mentor or that coach? I met someone actually just last week who said actually they designed a uh a bot through Chat GPT that is their business mentor, but that is the complex when you don't know you can go to there, but what you don't have to just be one person, go and speak to get three people's opinions and then make a bit more of an informed decision so that you don't think, oh no.
SPEAKER_01:I think getting a second opinion is is always valid. I I give you a great anecdote. Years ago, I went to a dentist and he said to me, I needed 13 fillings. It's a true story. True story, you tell me I'm talking about well over a decade ago. And I was thinking, I know my teeth aren't in great condition. You're a lovely teeth. Thank you, but there's no way that I need 13 fillings, like it's just not possible. So I went to another dentist, and that dentist said to me, I don't know what you're on about. You need this one filling. And I just feel like sometimes someone can turn up in a lab coat or with a with a clipboard, and we just think, well, they know what they're talking about, but getting a second opinion when when like go with your gut, man, and get a second opinion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, that's quite bold, isn't it? Because that's a professional who said 17, but they get the second opinion, and this person would be right. But how do you make the decision between the two? Is the other person wrong? Or did they just give you the answer that you wanted to know?
SPEAKER_01:I didn't tell him that I needed that. Actually, to be fair, I didn't tell him how many feelings I needed. When he gave when he gave me the answer, you only need this one feeling. I then said, Because I'm I'm not the sort of person that's gonna go, it's like you'll never guess what. I went to this other, you know. So that's that's really yeah, that is it.
SPEAKER_00:That's and that is I mean, just the whole going to the first dentist is the that leadership persona. We're not dentists, yeah. You need to go and get an expert's advice and give them the transparent symptoms. I don't know why you went originally, but you know, I I'll get knee pains from years of rugby. And I'm like, if I go in and say only half of this bit and don't tell them the full extent and the weight gain control, they can't make an actual advice opinion. So you need to be willing in the first place to go and get expert advice, but tell them what's going on so they can then go, yeah, this is what we want to do.
SPEAKER_01:They can't diagnose without this.
SPEAKER_00:They can't diagnose too many people and they give you a small bit of their story, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that goes back to the ego.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That goes back to the ego. Yeah, yeah. So the closing tradition in this podcast is you've got to name it. I can give you some ideas. I can tell you.
SPEAKER_00:Give me some ideas.
SPEAKER_01:You're you're the idea, you're the one. You gotta you gotta think about it a little bit. Come on. I can't, I've got to make you work a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:And what tell me what what what would other people do? I'm I'm not looking for that.
SPEAKER_01:People come up with some complex some some people come up with some great clickbaity titles. In all honesty, the the title that comes to mind for me is not sponsored by the Guardian. And the reason is because we must have shouted them out about FIPA. Great! I just think this is almost like a recruitment drive. Not sponsored by the Guardian, yeah, yeah. But you you you don't have to use that one. You can you can use um whatever works for you. Pause, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I think I love growth mindset, and I think the I think a lot of what we talked about is these different personas and people you come across, be it the guardian, be it the Bob Ellis, that teacher. I talked about with the kind of sports side of things. I think it's like the diversity of growth mindset, as in these mentors and coaches are different forms of life, be it parents, or like my executive officer. That's that's a coach. Like someone who on their career trajectory are you know, they're I could be their father, the the age profile, but they are coaching me in many ways that I didn't think I needed to hear. So I I think I would go with uh diversity of growth mindset.
SPEAKER_01:Diversity of growth mindset.
SPEAKER_00:Is that rubbish? No, that's pretty I'm asking for a genuine opinion. You can tell me.
SPEAKER_01:No, diversity of growth mindset is is a lot of words, I'm not gonna lie. It's a lot of words. Take up the growth, diversity of mindset, you know? Uh diversity of mindset. I don't think it makes sense. Diversity of shall we put into chat GPT? No, no, no, no, no. I reckon we can do this, man. We don't need a satin up to get everywhere. Let's uh what about.
SPEAKER_00:No, I don't.
SPEAKER_01:Go on.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_01:How about diversity and growth?
SPEAKER_00:I reckon. Diversity and growth. Right, diversity and growth.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But is that a little bit?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. Um I What would chat GPT tell me? Isn't that what we just said?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, go on, have a look.
SPEAKER_00:Um I ChatGPT says I'm saying diversity and growth. Good title of a podcast. Thinking. It says it could work, you don't sound too confident. There's ChatGPT. It could work. It's got some strengths. Clearly tells listeners the themes. But professionally it sounds suitable for education. And it's got broad appeal. Possible drawbacks. It feels more like the title of a workshop. Not sure, super catchy. Tips to improve beyond diversity. Call on the growth mindset podcast. Diverse minds, growing through diversity, mindset matters, call on diversity and growth. So which one are you going for? I liked my one actually, but um I'm gonna go for the power of diversity. This isn't this one remixing the remix. Power of diversity, colon growth mindset.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Is that uh it's great, it's great for the decision.
SPEAKER_00:We make some informed, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean it's the same amount of words, but it's fine. Alright, brother, I really, really enjoyed the conversation, genuinely. And yeah, it's the first time we've caught up in a long time to make sure we catch up again. It doesn't we didn't have to do it with cameras, but we could do it with cameras. It was I I enjoyed it. Brilliant. I I I hope you enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed it, and um when I say I hope you enjoyed it, I mean you and also the listeners and whatever. I hope someone listens, yeah. I'm just hoping.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, like that there might be one listener, and hopefully it's um someone from the Guardian, because like you say, we big them up massive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, I'm um uh very, very grateful for the time. I'm proud that you can do this, but it's great that you empower a number of people to keep going, man. That's awesome. And if I can ever help anybody, just reach out. It's just a LinkedIn LinkedIn message away.
unknown:Great.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean that the fact that you might get inundated with about three or four messages following this will show you the site. Yeah, that might be the problem.
SPEAKER_00:That's the case. I've been this is brilliant.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Cheers, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Take care.