Branding. Done.
Dawn Creative goes through all elements of branding, from the basics through to the real nitty-gritty.
Each episode, we host a new guest, to speak about how different areas of branding have impacted their role, their business, and the projects they have worked on.
We'll speak to MD's, marketing managers, creatives, and people across various businesses to get a variety of viewpoints on why branding, and all the elements within it, are so important.
Branding. Done.
Values at Work: Victoria Brown's Guide to Flourishing Business and Personal Relationships
What's the secret sauce to successfully starting a business at 17, selling it, and then venturing into a completely new industry? Join us as we unravel this with Victoria Brown, founder of OneHR and managing director of HPC High Performance Consultancy. Victoria’s entrepreneurial journey is an inspiration, but it's her insights on the role of values in both personal and business life that really strike a chord. As she navigates the intricacies of employment law in the hair and beauty sector, Victoria highlights the challenges and how her business ethics guided her through.
Imagine hiring the perfect team, a team that resonates with your company's purpose and values? Victoria takes us through the process, discussing the expectations of the younger generation regarding transparency and how challenging applicants on their core values can lead to hiring the perfect fit. But it doesn't stop there; Victoria believes that applying the same principles to customer retention and our personal and professional relationships can have a transformative impact. Are you trying to appeal to everyone? Find out why focusing on your target market and staying true to your own values can lead to the most rewarding outcomes.
So today we've got Victoria Brown, md of HPC High Performance Consultancy and founder of OneHR, which is an all-in-one software platform for growing businesses. Me and Victoria met probably eight to nine years ago a networking event just getting our businesses out there. Both businesses have grown substantially since then. So we're going to hear from Victoria and find out how important values are to the HR function of a business. Good morning, victoria. Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 1:It's been a little while since we spoke properly kind of bumped into each other at a networking event the other week. But yet today we're going to talk predominantly around values, both from a personal perspective and a business perspective, and how that kind of impacts the way that you go about living your life and running businesses. We first dive into that just rummaging around on your LinkedIn profile, I know it says that you set up your first business at the age of 17, and during this time as well, you've successfully sold a business as well. So just to help everyone understand what it is you do and that background of starting at such a young age, you want to give us a bit of detail around why you started at 17, and what it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. It's nice to see you, dave. Well, to speak to you today, dave. Yeah, so I set up my first business at 17, and it wasn't. It probably kind of fell into it, which I think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2:I was quite studious at school. I was a bit of a nerd. I used to be very academic and my mum always saying to me, oh, you need to go out. And I'd be like, well, I want to revise.
Speaker 2:And my sort of dream was always to be a doctor, so sort of get the grades and go to medical school. And that kind of came crashing down when I was 16, because my mum and dad got divorced. My mum was in an abusive relationship, so it was the right thing and it was great for us as a family. But we went from being very comfortable to have enough in really. So my mum could not have put me through medical school and it was too much to ask. So I gave up on that dream and decided that I was still going to fund myself to study, but I would need to fund that myself.
Speaker 2:So what could I do? And I could get a job, maybe in retail and not earn so much money, or I could actually do something for myself. So I really liked fitness. I was always kind of fit. I was quite a keen kickboxer at the time so I could get all my questions out that way. So I went and studied to do at the time and we've got PTs now, aren't we? But we were gym instructors and I used to do what we call exercise to music at the time. So I used to rent out church halls and I had the kit and the speakers and I used to do a boxing-type exercise, a robust type session, and it was brilliant. I got paid well at the time to do it and I had quite a strong following. And, as you can tell from the accent, I'm from Liverpool and scouts like to look after themselves. Women like to make sure they've got the hair and makeup done.
Speaker 2:So I ended up venturing into the hair and beauty industry. So, with the help of the Prince's Trust, I got some funding, which was fantastic, and I set up a business. I rented a shop and I had a few beauticians and then I bought a property, probably years later, and went into the hair as well. But then during that time I went to university. So it funded me to study. But what I did instead was psychology. So I did a psychology degree and then I went on and did a masters in business psychology, which I've always been fascinated in how we take and how you can get the best out of people. And that was one of the reasons how I sort of fell into HR, because it was a natural progression into sort of HR. I ended up working within HR and then went to night school and did master's degrees around employment law as well, so I had that background. So, yeah, that was sort of where I started.
Speaker 1:That's quite a journey that then Quite varied, obviously still business focused, and can often be the case that an entrepreneur ends up doing something they just believe they can make better or greater, but it might not be their exact skill. I happen to be a designer and run a brand agency, so I've become kind of a person in production that then runs a company, but it's not always the case, is it? You can have people just find an opportunity and think that's what I could operate a business in. It sounds like a lot of yours were passion-led.
Speaker 2:I think at the time, if I'm honest, it probably means to an end I wanted to study. I was good, you know, I was quite fit, I enjoyed it. I thought why not get paid to do this? And I saw an opportunity with the sort of following that I had, that actually we want to look after ourselves, so maybe I can get you to get your hair done by or your makeup. So I wouldn't say I was particularly passionate about sort of the hair and beauty industry. I've worked with some fantastic people that are very, very talented in that way.
Speaker 2:It wasn't necessarily something I wanted to do forever, but what was interesting about it was I got to see how difficult it was as a business owner, because it's quite a tough industry to be in. You've got quite a lot of employee relations issues, absence, young people working for you. They've got a lot of cash at the time, so quite easy to slip something into your pocket. And it was tough because there wasn't anything really out there. I was only a small business. I had seven staff, I think.
Speaker 2:In the end, yeah, I couldn't afford a lawyer to sort of support me through some of the nuances of employment law and I didn't want to go to one of the call centres. I didn't want to be a number because I was passionate about my business. I was proud of what I built, even though it was really small. I didn't want to be a number. I wanted somebody to know who I was and understand my business. So it was fantastic in that way because I felt it gave you the foundations of work. I did make some big mistakes there and I learnt from them. I obviously bought properties, so that set me up in sort of. I do do a little bit of brown property now, so that's from a quite young age. I got involved in property by default and it also gave me. I knew I wanted to do something and I think when I saw I saw what I felt was a gap in the market for a good, personable, boutique HR provision that I didn't believe was available at the time.
Speaker 1:So, going back to like keep yourself fit and the health-based side of setting up a business, your current business or you've got a few, but your main business has been high performance. Is that a name that you think has come from that particular background as well, from, like, a competitive sports angle, or is that not the reason for high performance? Is it a different reason?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely I think it is. I am quite, you know, competitive in that regard with myself and when I was thinking of the name, sort of thought of I wasn't sure whether I would just be HR because obviously I had the psychology background. I did do quite a bit of consultancy early on, just very specific to sort of business psychology in some in large organizations. So I needed something that was a bit more not like my software business, which is quite specific to HR, something that would encompass it all. But you know, matt, the idea would be that you work with high performance and we create that high performing team for you which, you know it's not just about tick box and making sure you comply with your contracts and handbook, it's about actually you know this day from having such a fantastic team it's that employee engagement is massively important and it's something that is really missed by some of the larger call centre type operators because that's just not the service that they deliver.
Speaker 1:And so do you find that when you're working with your clients obviously the HR perspective that is obviously important when it comes to people, people management and culture engagement and stuff like that Do you find a lot of your clients have strong values and it's something that you try and tease out of them to onboard a new client so you can understand the makeup of their business. How does that play out on a day-to-day basis? You're influencing the way that culture might work, or they're trying to tell you how their culture works. How often do you see that being a real importance to clients?
Speaker 2:I think that is one of the most important things, you know, Dave, and when it's interesting, when you say to tease out of them, because that's exactly what you have to do sometimes. I think sometimes people sort of will talk to us and they may be a small business owner that sort of grows at a certain point and not have those foundations in place. So you know not, and the things that we have to have, you know, we know we have to be legally compliant, have contracts and handbooks, and it's not the most exciting thing but a business owner has to do it.
Speaker 2:And a lot of the time you know they will just have quite standardized policies as you expect to be compliant. But it's trying to understand, you know, and they'll have amazing businesses and you know passion and the core values of that business at that point. But it's not communicated anywhere. It's, you know, I don't even think, a lot of the time there are employees and there are people that work for them.
Speaker 2:No, which is which is, hopefully, you know, something that we try and do and try and encourage them to be able to work through that and feed that into their full employee life cycles, and it makes it, it really does make a massive difference to the engagement of their people and productivity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know there's another reason why we're you know we're doing these podcasts and talking to different people from different areas within a business.
Speaker 1:You know, obviously you've been a HR specialist, but we obviously, from a brand perspective, try and get over the fact. But once you've got values in place for the business, that means everyone in the organization needs to know them, live and breathe them and make decisions on the business, about it. So you know, from an identity perspective, we might need to shape an identity via color and type and tone of voice and other feelings, to give off some of those values, which is fine because that's what we do. But internally they're not often embraced as much as they probably should be, and in a HR function they have the ability to shape the way the business operates and how it engages with partners, employees, based around values and things like that. Are you seeing a greater appetite for that? Because the reason why a company exists, its purpose, its value structure I think it's becoming more prominent and I think people, when they're getting recruited, want that more from a company. Are you feeling that, from a HR perspective as well, that companies are getting a greater appetite?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think that is partly to do with that generational shift that we've got now. You know that expectation for the younger generation now that they want to know our purpose, they want to know our. Why don't they Not just that we want to make a load of money and retire one day? Sometimes the challenge that I do find is that tick box exercise and talking to a client, where they may have had to put like an investor pack together or a business plan and they've got you know their vision and their values, but they're not really true to those vision and values. So they can never really embed those sort of core values because they don't really believe in them. And so we do find, quite a lot of the time it's going through that exercise as well, to say, well, what are your values? And they might be just something with Google to pick it up and do you really believe in them? Because if you don't, your team aren't going to.
Speaker 2:But you totally right on recruitment as well. I think that whenever I get caught up in like what I call employee relations, so a dispute, a lot of the time if the employee is not right for the business and it's a culture challenge of bad attitudes, or just it's from the recruitment process and it's because they've not embedded their core values into some of the questions and it actually might not be for that person. It's not, it's nothing to do with performance, it's just they're just not the right fit for that organisation and vice versa, and it's been missed. It's such an important part of the process.
Speaker 1:It is. Yeah, I think people can get carried away with the CV written well and they've got the right qualifications, or they're saying they've got the right skills who's to know where is right or wrong and they might perform well in an interview. But it's actually challenging what they're about as a person and are those values aligned to what we are? Because I'm a big believer that if you can get people in an organisation that are closer to your values and that doesn't mean the same type of people you can still have diversity, but they have a similar mindset, similar beliefs and value systems and structures you can get a team 80, 90% close. You can have a great performing team and if they've got the right mindset, they'll up skill and train and become better anyway. You can have skilled people that just don't have the right values for the business and actually bring the business down, which you probably get more disputes, I guess, from a HR. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, totally agree on it. I always say that to clients. As you say, they've got the appetite to learn and the ability. We can always up skill our people. I love to grow my own talent within our organisation. But if they've not got the right value match and I've done it, I've recruited the wrong people and I've just looked in the mirror and I've just thought I knew that Actually I interview and you've got that gut feeling and that niggle thinking and sometimes you're that desperate for the role that you just forget. You ignore that sort of feeling, saying no, actually don't take this person on, and nine times out of ten it was right and you should not. You should have waited.
Speaker 1:You're right. I think that's the problem with all parts of this is some business don't have values at all, haven't written them down, haven't documented them. I don't believe in them, I don't know they exist. Others, like you've said, sometimes write them but never action anything.
Speaker 1:But you all get busy and we can all make decisions, like you say, even though you know about values and you'd love to behave that way, you need to fill a role and you forget and, like you, should look back at yourself, hold yourself accountable, and that, for me, that's what values are about is shaping an organization that has values that we can all have a framework to say. This is how we operate and have grown up conversations around you know. If it is a review, for example, you say, oh, when you did this, you could have been a little bit more. This because that's one of our values, rather than it being the opinion of an owner or a boss which feels like they're nagging someone all the time. It's just their opinion, whereas if you're saying, oh, these are our values that you remember when you were inducted, these are the values, I need you to celebrate this value more. That's when I think you'd probably get a better performing organization.
Speaker 2:Definitely and your values become alive and don't make so. You know a lot of organizations can do. They can put them down on paper, they might put them on the wall that we see, they may talk about them at interview and then they're just forgotten. So that is for me that's so important. When I talk about that employee life cycle, you know it starts in that recruitment and then it is, you know, as you say, performance reviews, appraisals. We do something like. We have like a star system. So you know everybody will sort of send stars or clients can as well to our team for doing a great job, but they're linked and aligned to our values. So it's just again, always that business reviews reminding people of our values and always I think you just got to live and breathe and talk about them. I've read quite a few sorts of business leaders have said that every day, you know, every day you should be talking about one of your values.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more on that. They need to be short enough to be remembered. I've seen many documents that have been put together where people are trying to be clavoured by writing so many words that no one's ever going to remember them, and so actually, you need something really quite concise If you're going to write a purpose, a vision, a mission and values. It needs to have impact. Definitely, it needs to mean something to you, it needs to be actionable, but at the same time, it needs to be memorable, because if you can't recall it as an owner or a director or a manager, then we haven't got much hope for anyone remembering them.
Speaker 1:And if they're not just being casually spoken about day to day, you know, it's not a case of rolling out a PowerPoint at 9 every morning and going back through them, because people would just get bored by it. It's more just a general conversation, and I don't think there's anything better when you hear two of your team members trying to make a decision on something and you hear them say oh well, if we need to be a bit more friendly or bold or whatever it is we're trying to achieve, we need to do X, and you think well, brilliant, they're the conversations that we should be having, because it gives us guidance, doesn't it? And say, makes us a bit more accountable to what we're trying to achieve.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I should say that you just hit the nail on the head. If you've got people that you overhear because they're challenging each other in a good, positive way around the values, then you know you've absolutely nailed it. You know you really have embedded those values into your business. At that point, do you think?
Speaker 1:more can be done in the HR space within other organizations. Obviously you support people with HR or even take it over in its entirety. But from your experience of other companies where they'll have a HR function, maybe sometimes you support that HR function. Do you think as organizations maybe leaders of organizations they need to put more responsibility or allow HR departments to express themselves more to make sure the values are fully integrated?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and I think everyone at the HR network has talked to a lot of HR directors and that is a massive bug there for HR directors. Sometimes that they're not really. A lot of times HR doesn't get a place in the boardroom and they should, and I think it's more of a compliance piece. You know it used to be personnel back in the day and in some organizations it still is. In fact, to be honest, dave, I actually have a rule that if anybody says to me, oh, I'd like to engage your services, we need personnel, I actually won't work with them.
Speaker 2:Okay yeah, because they're just two prehistoric. But for me now, in terms of the way in which HR should be, it should be that business partner. It's very important that a lot of organizations at a senior level, when you do talk around the vision and the values, it's a lot of like, well, I just haven't got the time. Yeah, we need them, I just haven't got the time to do that. And for me it's so crucial that they spend their time and look at their sort of the values, because it will save them so much time for other things we talked about. So the disputes, you know, not confirming somebody in post because they've recruited the wrong people, but they just don't see it a lot of the time and don't spend. But if they're putting like an investor pack together, like we talked about, or a business plan, then you know sort of owners of a business will spend some time on it then. So it's sometimes the challenge of HR is it's quite difficult to quantify the importance of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the value side of things, which taps into culture and people, is still misunderstood in a lot of places, but maybe people don't know how to action it. I often tell a made-up story about reception, let's say a reception desk, and if you want to be friendly and approachable as a business, it's kind of important to you. You can do a number of things with that. It might be tone of voice or colour palette and typography and all those things could make you look friendly and approachable as a company. Ideally you'd answer the phone within two rings, you'd respond to email within a couple of hours. That would still make you friendly and approachable.
Speaker 1:And I say on reception, you just expect to put someone on who's friendly and approachable, but that doesn't always happen. I go into some receptions a terrible person on reception. So you think as a given you'd normally do that. But I'll say to people, as a measure, you could say whoever's on reception always ask three questions minimum. And that's where you come from today, what was your journey like and what drink do you want? So whoever's on reception will ask those three things. So that helps you be more friendly and approachable.
Speaker 1:And then I say, okay, that's one measure you can put in tomorrow, then capture the answers in an Excel sheet basic stuff capture the answers from that person and then have a trigger when that person comes back in again. And next time they come in you can say oh, did you come from Manchester again today? At least it's not raining like last time. Do you want a coffee with milk? Now you're friendly and approachable. Value has transpired greater just in reception overnight by just putting a few tiny things in place, and that's how I see values being implemented in every single part of the business Absolutely.
Speaker 2:No, it's such a good point and it's funny. I keep going back to my sort of first business, because that was what we used to do. So the hairdressers and the beautician would make notes against the file of the client just around her. If they had an anniversary coming up, I should say how to take the coffee, and it made a massive difference around the retention. So, yeah, you know, if you can apply that in your business, it's really being powerful.
Speaker 1:And you can apply it anywhere, can't you? You know, becoming more digital and I think because of that, there's less kind of human aspect to it. Too many automated emails that no one rereads, so they allow the software to spit out the communication and don't think we need to rewrite that based on our values with our business, to make it feel more us. So, you know, it's all part of a business where the values need to play out. Having gone through what you've gone through and the success you've created for yourself with the different businesses, what, would you say, some of your own personal values are then? What are the things that you think you hold yourself accountable to? Because not many people sit and write their own values down. They'll write business values down, but we've all got values that we live by. We just probably don't document them.
Speaker 2:I think I've always tried to be kind and I always say that to my two sources. I always say that's important and not girls can be like sometimes or you know bickering school. I'd say just be kind and you can never really go the wrong in that way. I've always found that in a personal life and then professionally as well. So I've always liked to think I've got, you know, a good moral compass and I will always treat people how I expect to be treated. And I think through, as I've got older I've learned to sort of remove that toxicity if they are different. So I suppose it's aligned into my personal values. Really, if somebody's not aligned to my personal values, then I'll quickly remove them from either my personal or business relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the important part of it, isn't it?
Speaker 1:No one writes their own values down. Really, I've read some books where people do all they're encouraged to because it's good to understand what you're about as a person. And then what makes you kind of be happy or have some joy in your life but, at the same time, the things that suddenly make you a bit angry or get you upset and for me, both of those things is because you're either embracing your values or something is going against them, and that could be another person rubbing you up the wrong way, or another person that you get on with and enjoy the time, or it could be something within a business, or it could be at a restaurant or hotel or driving your car on the road. There's certain triggers that will frustrate you or make you happy. What would you say? Some of the things are that you lean towards thinking that makes it a better place for me, it makes me more happy. And then some of the triggers that you think they're the things that could get you a little bit uptight and angry from time to time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of making me happy, I think it's again, it's success, and I don't just measure success as financial.
Speaker 2:It's that success of growing your business and sometimes looking at the people that you employ and that happy and engaged and feeling quite proud of that and from a home perspective as your children grow and that sort of family time. In terms of frustrations, I used to get probably quite upset actually when I was younger if somebody didn't like me. So if I because I am quite a personable outgoing person and I always do I would never intentionally try and upset anybody and I like to think in business actually you don't have to be completely ruthless, you can't be a pushover. But equally, if you're fair as I always am with my clients and we're all running a business but if somebody didn't like me and I couldn't really understand why, it used to bother me. Whereas now I think, as I've got older, I've sort of a lot more confident in myself and sort of think well, I know, I've not thought everyone's gonna like you and actually that's okay, you know, just need to move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree with that. You know, if I'm not back when you were younger and some of your nervousness might have come around, what do other people think? I am old enough to not care at all. But again, it comes down to values as well, especially from, like, a brand perspective. The whole point of creating values and the purpose and a brand and an identity is to appeal to a certain type of person or collective.
Speaker 1:So I always use Apple as an example, as I believe that's a good brand. It's design-led, generally a high-quality product. I kind of believe and trust in it. I've used it since I was 20. 50% of the world or more hate it. You're never gonna please everybody. No one can. Brands can't do that either, but nor should they. They're supposed to stand for something and part of what shapes that is the values that sit behind the business, and I often think that, especially when it's a. You know, every company's been founded to some degree, unless it's a big corporate that creates a new product or a new service overnight. But most startup businesses come from a founder and often those values that the founder has, that are given to them by upbringing, parent, school, are the ones that partly get applied to the business because you want things done in a certain way. Do you think you look back and think some of your personal values have impacted how you have created values for your business as well?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because I've always been taught like one of our core values is to be personable and I think you know Link's back to what I talked about earlier about wanting to have that boutique offering. So we were big enough to cope cliche, but small enough to care and not dilute that anyway. And I was always taught you know the importance of good communication and to pick up the phone. Don't put things in an email or, you know, don't make something for them that you'll regret in the future, which one of my teenage daughters does all the time in a text to one of her friends. But you know that is something that I added as a value to the business and it's lovely actually, because I do see a lot of the time the sales team or the consultants when they're talking to a client, they will talk about that I was the founder, why I set it up and that value. So they'll talk about what actually she wants to make a difference.
Speaker 2:She wanted to deliver a more personable service to her clients and you know that's what we do now and I think if I was to survey my team, I think one of the core values that they talk about the most is being personable. It's what they're really proud of. You know that they are, they are and they're proud of their retention rates and their service, that they deliver, and it probably keeps them at HPC for a lot longer because they enjoy their work, which I think is so massively important. You know, I talk to the team all the time to see what we spend more time with each other than we do with our family. You know, let's make sure we have a great time along the way. We're not, you're not at school and we're all adults. Let's, you know, let's have a bit of fun, but let's get the job done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, completely. So, to finish off, you mentioned your team and how much time you might spend with them. You also mentioned family as well. So all the things we've discussed today discussions around values, whether they're business related or client Base values, or personal values, and things like that If you were going to take one value from all the discussions we've had and say to a younger person so it could be your daughters in this case take that one value. That's the one you're going to pass down and say this is important. These are the reasons why. What, what would you pick out?
Speaker 2:Well, as I mentioned earlier on, I just look at my daughters, and one's 15 now, so I sort of see her, you know, coming up the ranks to be, you know, employed by someone one day and I'm thinking, gosh, I want to make sure that she's not a nightmare of an employee. I do talk a lot around communication with my children and linking back again to such that personable point, because it does concern me massively that the younger generation don't. You know, my daughter will sit with her friends and they'll communicate via their phones on Snapchat rather than talk. Lots of our disputes are a lot of the time around like emails or, you know, keyboard warriors that said something to someone if they misinterpreted.
Speaker 2:I'm forever saying pick up the phone, phone out a coffee, sort it out. It's actually not as probably bigger deal as you're perceiving it to be. So that, to me, is really important that my children do learn to have those interpersonal, softer skills really and, as I mentioned earlier, to be kind. I just think don't be a pushover in life, but equally, if you play fair and you are kind, it's incredible how much that's reciprocated and that's, I think it's been one of the ingredients that. I think that's my success so far.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean communication, and communicating in the right way. So that's a caring aspect of that. Or saying something as you want to be, it said to you. It's massively important. I think most disputes, whether that's personal and man and wife relationships, that type of stuff it's because communication has not been as clear as it could be and it causes a problem. And the same in business, and same when it comes to values, about expressing them and seeing them happen all the time. That is communication in itself and it can shape things. You know you talk about email and stuff.
Speaker 1:I say to our team our purpose is to rid the world of bad design and poor communication, so that can happen internally as well. We could have badly designed processes over time as we grow, so we need to fix them. We could choose the wrong form of communication, so we need to be aware of that and, depending on what you're doing, a long email isn't good where a phone call would be better, a video call might be better now in the modern world because we're all accepting of them. And even better, if you could do it, would be a face-to-face conversation if the dispute is needed. But they're all forms of communication and they're all good at a point in time, but some are bad at points as well. It's picking the right form of communication, deliver it in the right way, which I think makes a big difference, and that can be shaped by making sure you've got the right values in place within a business in the first place and the right people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I see so many sort of emails I've been sent to somebody and they'd copied the world in from the business and that can be perceived in a bullying way. And it's all what I do always say to a client is it's down to perception. So you may look at that and think it's not offensive. I wouldn't be bothered by that, but somebody else would be and it's totally down to perception and you can't change that and you can't change that in employment tribunal. A lot of the time as well it's if that person's being perceived as being bullied, harassed, discriminated against. The judge will make the call on the day whether they believe that that was the right perception. So, as you say, there's different types of communication and at the sometimes it's just that education piece, I think a lot of the time as well within an organization, of what one to use at the right time, what to appropriate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think you need to be yourself, don't you? But at the same time, you probably need to realize everyone is different. And if you could take a step back, just pause, reread your email, think what you're gonna say on a call. It's just consideration, isn't it? Whichever way you look at it, so that's the main importance, really. Oh.
Speaker 2:Dave, I do that all the time. Still, I still have like a draft. If you get annoyed by something, and I'll send something and I'll put it in drafts and nine times out of 10, and I'll go back to it and 24 hours later and go. I'm one way you can say by that now and it could be just as a bad day, couldn't? You know? The kids are annoyed you, you've been stuck in traffic when you came in something's bothered you that wouldn't normally bother you.
Speaker 1:Well, completely, and again, that's part of your own internal values, isn't it playing up or down in some way? So it's always important just to know where you're at with something. So I'd like to thank you for joining us and all the insights into the businesses that you've grown over the time and successes you've had, and sharing both personal values and business values and what impact they have Been. Great chatting to you. Hopefully we can chat again soon.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thank you, dave.
Speaker 1:All right, thanks a lot. I'll see you next time.
