Branding. Done.
Dawn Creative goes through all elements of branding, from the basics through to the real nitty-gritty.
Each episode, we host a new guest, to speak about how different areas of branding have impacted their role, their business, and the projects they have worked on.
We'll speak to MD's, marketing managers, creatives, and people across various businesses to get a variety of viewpoints on why branding, and all the elements within it, are so important.
Branding. Done.
How Personal Principles Power Business Success with Paul Barnes
Are you tired of feeling like your business values and personal values are at odds? What if you could merge both seamlessly, transforming your enterprise into a reflection of your personal ethos while driving success? That's exactly what our guest, Paul Barnes, the Managing Director of My Accountancy Place (MAP), has accomplished. Paul's journey into entrepreneurship was kindled by his frustration with low-value services in accounting firms. He knew there had to be a better way, and his quest led him to create MAP, a vibrant embodiment of his personal and business values.
Paul and I delve into the intricacies of creating brand values that mirror personal values. We unravel how these core principles not only drive business success but also shape the way we operate within our enterprises.
Paul will be shedding light on how he has cultivated a robust value system within MAP that transcends beyond just business; it permeates his team's everyday conversations and actions. Learn how values can indeed be a driving force for success and foster a culture of innovation and achievement. Paul's insights are invaluable for any entrepreneur looking to infuse their personal values into their enterprise, creating a work environment that inspires and celebrates success. So, buckle up and get ready for a journey that will transform the way you perceive and apply values in your business.
Today we've got Paul Barnes with us. Paul is the MD of an accountancy practice called my Accountancy Place, abbreviated to MAP. It specializes in our space actually digital creative design type agencies. That's all it looks after, so clearly attracts the right type of audience. Knows about the industry, knows about the patterns and shifts in finances. Probably knows how to help and fix and support people as well. So we're going to talk to Paul a little bit more about his business and, clearly, the values that drive his approach to doing it. So that's enough from me. Let's hear from the man himself, paul Barnes. Paul known into the Viro Island before I haven't heard yet.
Speaker 1:I hate to say how many years it is, but quite a long time. We basically got you on today to talk about values, both personal values and brand values, really and how that shapes you as an individual and how you go about running your business, and just trying to tease out you, how you see the world in that space and how important you see it as well. Before we dive into asking you a bit more about that, I just want to read sentence from your LinkedIn profile which I think really oh dear. I know it's the opening line and I think it's a good thing for me to read out, because this is the kind of thing I really like when I'm listening to clients why they might want to do something different or achieve something different.
Speaker 1:So you say map, which is your business map, was born out of a deep frustration after seeing a lot of accounting firms providing low value services to any businesses, having little or no impact on the clients they serve, which I read and thought interesting, fascinating. It's out there in the public domain reading it back to you. What does that say to you? Because there's a reason, isn't it? There's catalyst, why you suddenly said I'm going to do it differently, all.
Speaker 2:I think if you look, most businesses in reality are probably born out of a frustration. Somebody's got a frustration. I think a lot of times that's where passion comes from. Passion comes from frustration of seeing things done not as well as they could be by either your former employer or just when you're just recipient on the customer side. And then you've obviously got that bit between your teeth and you've got a passion to go and do something about it and I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 2:Interestingly, because I knew we were coming on to talk about personal values today, I asked my wife what she thought my personal values were and I put it in a text message just so she could have time to sort of digest and reflect and put it in writing.
Speaker 2:And she talked about the usual things about honesty and integrity, which I thought oh, that sounds cliche.
Speaker 2:Everybody says that.
Speaker 2:But then she went on to explain it is you like people to be honest and own up to their mistakes or own up to any weaknesses in particular?
Speaker 2:So I saw that as coming along the lines of frustration as well, and I think a lot of what is written about values and said about values people look at it from like a really positive thing, you know, trying to have things that we can high five about and sound good in our marketing, whereas actually I think a lot of what values are about is about avoiding frustration, and so when we've looked at our core values as a business which I spent more time on than I have my own personal values it's actually we've got the benefit of being in business 10 years now.
Speaker 2:It's reflecting back and thinking about what, when people have pleased you or people have frustrated you, what have been the things that show up? And so, yeah, whether it's the way that the business was formed in the first place or the things that show up on a day to day basis, I think you'll get a lot more credibility from your values if you think about the things that frustrate you as well as the things that that please you, and I don't think a lot of people are spending another time on that perspective of it.
Speaker 1:Yep, well, that's a great, great answer. We try and run exercises that are based on exactly that, like where's the frustration lie? And go down that particular path. Because if you can identify what that is and, like you say, it might be a frustration in a business where you think I can't work here anymore because of X, y and Z, I'm going to move job or set something up. I'm going to come because you're not satisfied with something, but then I feel you can stand behind that value even more. The opposite to that would be that is what I'm about and then shaping your business around it. So give us a little bit of background to the career that you've carved out for yourself here. Obviously, you've gone through studying accountancy and so forth, but there's that catalyst, that point in time where you thought I'm going to do it differently. What was it that you felt you were going to take to the market? That would be different to something else that someone offered you.
Speaker 2:I remember it really vividly actually, dave. So my background was obviously did school, did college, didn't do amazingly well, did average, did okay, but didn't know what I wanted to do. So just went to university, just because I didn't know what to do really, so just stayed in the educational system Quietly. Maths was okay at it, so felt that after a lot of research, a degree in accounting and finance would stand me in good stead for a lot of things Like obviously just good skills to have whether you go into accounting or not. And then just happened to love it, just love the topic area. So then went into accountancy practice. So in finance you have what you would call client side you know, working in industry in a finance division or you have accountancy practice which is then dealing with a portfolio of clients and providing that on an outsourced basis. And so I went into that for a number of years.
Speaker 2:But my move into entrepreneurship, if you like, building a business was I would be lying if I said that I was born to be an entrepreneur. I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. Coming through the education system I didn't, even in my first couple of jobs, you know, I was fully focused on being a good accountant, I never felt like I was going to be a business owner. Then it changed really quickly and it was two things. One was being in charge of, like an office, if you like, like a branch where quite a young age about 26 years old I was running a branch and managing people and signing clients up and delivering the service and working on process and marketing and you know a lot of experience at a very young age, throwing it at the deep end, if you like, and I just loved working with business owners. And then there was a client who said, have you heard of this zero thing? And I said no, what's that? And he saw it as an accountancy software much more modern and more and more businesses starting to use it and it's cloud-based blah, blah, blah, blah. And I looked into it and I just started following it, got to their events and their conferences and I was just absolutely captivated by what a culture they had built and how they'd really galvanized the community of the difference you can actually make to small businesses as an accountant. And so it was really inspiring you with. You've got the skills, you've just not had the technology until now and your clients haven't had the technology and this was a way to be able to I always talk about. Unfortunately, I can't be in my clients businesses every day. I wish I could because I love working with them and loving them frontline, but what we can be is in their finances and then there are only a phone call away from being able to have conversations about live and accurate information.
Speaker 2:So Xero was, you know, a massive juggernaut in the UK over the last 10 years since it came to UK Shores and they really have done an amazing job of captivating the accounting community and inspiring us. So it was a result of being in charge of that branch and then seeing things from a client perspective not from an accountant perspective, but seeing clients started to be excited about the numbers and excited about accounting. I thought this is great and I was just getting my practice and certificate at that time. So in our industry if you go through the university route, it's three years to become an accountant, then another three years doing your professional qualifications, then another two years to get your practice and certificate, which enables you to then operate an accountancy firm or be a direct from the accountancy firm.
Speaker 2:So I was coming up to the end of that eight year window, I was coming up to 27 years old and boss sat down to offer me partnership in the business because, you know, I was getting a practice and certificate and I could become his business partner and my application was already in the post to be able to get that practice and certificate for my own firm.
Speaker 2:So I said, you know, I'm going to go and do my own thing. I've got that entrepreneurial spirit now. That's not going to go away and I really enjoyed the business side. So you know, coming back to your themes, the idea of being able to build your own brand on your values and your way and do things the way that you felt, fill the gap that was needed and was in line with your values and fulfilled you without any limitations of somebody saying no, I got to it this way, you've got to pass these tests just really excited me. So you know, coming up with the name and the brand and what we stood for and the proposition and everything really excited me and so off I went and that was nearly 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:So in those early days there where, let me say, it's born out of frustration and you get excited suddenly about entrepreneurship and starting something new and something you can actually shape, and it sounds like quite early on, you took on the branding process, whether you fully knew it or not, but you were thinking I need to create something here in substance. Was it quite early on that you started looking at values, and if so, you talked about frustrations. But was it personal values that shaped the business and or not? Did you think of it in a different way?
Speaker 2:I probably didn't use that language at the time that I would use now and recognise now. It was more about being customer centric. For me, I would say so you could obviously argue that that's a value, but I wouldn't have recognised that at the time. For me, it was becoming really addicted, if you like, to creating something that would really satisfy a need for people and, as I said, get them excited about numbers and get excited about their business. That's what drove me, but I didn't have a definition or any language, if you like, to label that at the time. But that's what I was trying to do.
Speaker 2:I was trying to respond to the excitement from those clients and we were very you know, the staff to client ratio was crazy in that firm, like the amount of clients that each staff member had to deal with meant that every now and again you know really good business owner would come through the door. You might have had the desire and the skills to help them, but you were too busy. You just the volume was too high, you were just dealing with too many customers, and so I wanted to be able to get closer to those customers and be able to help them, and obviously Clare accounting enabled me to do that. So, yeah, that was the, that was the pathway, if you like. That led me into then being able to focus on a brand that would stand out and be credible, and I think that's the other big part.
Speaker 2:Isn't it about brand values? Is you've got to deliver as well. You can't just sound the part. You've actually got to be able to deliver on the promise that you're putting out there, and I think that's the bit I would say I've got better at over time. Maybe in the early days I would have been too naive and a bit too gunko in terms of setting expectation too high. And then it's through painful experiences that you start to realise that actually, your brand is about the best representation of what you actually do and how you do it. Not all the things that in an ideal world with unlimited resources that none of us have, you'd be able to do, but what you actually do as a business.
Speaker 1:So have you ever actually took a step back, even in those early days, or just in life in general, and thought what are my values myself, just as a personal level? What do I actually stand for? But I think we've all got them inside us. We just don't sit down and get a piece of paper and write them down.
Speaker 2:No. So there's two things there. So one, we've got very clear core values as a business and inevitably there you would probably tell me that there are a reflection of me and my own personal values. But I haven't actually taken a step of writing down my personal values, which is why I had to ask Penny, my wife, what she thinks my personal values are and what's important to me. What I have done is come up with like these pillars. So they're not really what I would call values, but they're the things that.
Speaker 2:So the other thing that Penny said was, as well as honesty and integrity, was about work-life balance being really important to me, and it is like I won't work at all costs, I won't achieve my business goals at all costs.
Speaker 2:I'll do it within the parameters that I'm willing to set myself, which is being there for my children, being there for my family, having good quality time together, having holidays and all the rest of it, and then I would rather have a good business and a good personal life than a great bit, than a great outstanding business, if you like, fast growing and all the rest of it and sacrifice that personal life. So the work-life balance is important. So I came up with these pillars in terms of the things that I want to be on top of, mindful of, if you like, on a day-to-day basis. So they're like my hobbies the hobbies that I've got, the sports that I enjoy, family time, friend time, business, personal finances, etc. I came up with these pillars as the things that I want to make sure I'm not neglecting for too long any one of these areas. But actually formally writing down my personal values is not something that I've done?
Speaker 1:No, and then I wonder whether anyone ever does really. But I guess that's where my take on it is. The concept of creating a brand and creating values came from the fact that we all happen to have values. We just don't sit down and think what they are or where they came from and who gave them to you, because you could have a sibling with different values, but you both have the same parents and a similar upbringing. So they kind of come from somewhere.
Speaker 1:You know, find that founders might start a business, get a bit frustrated by maybe the first few people they employ or maybe class they deal with or whatever it might be, and get wound up by it. But I don't know why they're getting wound up by it. And so they compare opinion on a decision that's made or something that someone's done in a team, rather than saying, well, we don't do it like as we're trying to be this, and then that's all of a shared discussion, isn't it, rather than someone's opinion. So we often find that it's you know, that the human emotion and the value within somebody's a big part of what shapes the way that someone operates. So you talk about frustration and things like that and you've touched upon, like family life and sport and other things. What are the things that you'd say to stop the curve, things that get you like a bit more upset and angry, which clearly I would say treading on your value system, and then make you more happy and you know you find joy in them? What would you say if you go?
Speaker 2:Interestingly, joy is a very relevant word there. So I grew up with a dad who basically would, in his words detested what he did as a career. He was a plasterer and he left school at 16 in Glasgow and he's 74 now and he's still plastering. So it really frustrated me that he would go year after year doing something that he, in his own words, detested and just carry on doing it. So you know, we map now.
Speaker 2:We've had people have said to them we don't think this career is for you, not because you're doing a bad job, but because we don't. You know, particularly as we're taking on younger people, you've got a whole career ahead of you. It's really important to me that you do something that you love, and I'm not sure that this is it. So I get frustrated by people being too accepting of them on this career path, and this is what I need to do, because you don't. There's a whole world of opportunity out there and you better retrain in and start at the bottom of a ladder that you want to climb rather than being halfway up, one that you don't. So people not pursuing their dreams and the things that gives them joy, people not being the best versions of themselves or the best versions that they want to be, because not everybody has the same level of ambition.
Speaker 2:You know, some people are happy just doing a decent job, good work, life balance. But the decent job, I think, is the key bit. So people not giving their all for any piece of work or any job or any task that they do, I think is frustrating. It's not about ambition that, it's just about taking pride in your work, I guess.
Speaker 2:And then honesty will be the other one, as Penny said in the text back to me. There it's not just me being honest, it's other people being honest as well. And when people don't communicate how they're really feeling or something that is frustrating them and then they wait for it to blow up, it's frustrating that maybe they didn't necessarily have the bravery to come forward and I'm having to sort of realize that the hard way is that just because I'm quite direct and I'm brave to open up about things, not everybody else is. So I don't get as frustrated about it as I used to, but I have to sort about my lip a little bit and try and give those people the right attention and try to get them to open up, whilst recognizing that not everybody's the same and not everybody will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So with those two sides of the fence there and you're, you know You've touched on your own personal values, even though you know one really goes through the process of writing them down. It seems like you've taken it to a step where you've got pillars and a bit of structure and stuff like that. Things that will frustrate you, naturally, things will make you more happy and relaxed and give you a bit of joy, and so forth. So, during shaping, you know, the accountancy firm that you've got, using your values, now that the business has, and what you shaped, how do you see them working within the business of a day-to-day basis, within your own role as well as a leader, and, ultimately, the way that you work or change the way that you work as a business? How do you try and implement those values? Because you're talking about some, some people may be keeping them themselves themselves or not sharing their own frustration. That becomes too late, you know, and that's about open dialogue, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and yeah freedom to some degree and great communication stuff like that. What are some of the values that you you have in the business and how do you, how do you kind of take them forward?
Speaker 2:So we talk about values and principles, and the difference being that values is what you have to show up at the door with and non-negotiable, whereas principles are kind of our way of behaving as a business that you can learn over time. So an example as if you take something like we talk about developing the map brain. So if we've got a process and you see a weakness in it, you've got the opportunity and the autonomy to go and develop that process to make it better, so that it becomes not just my process is how you have to do things, but they combine knowledge of all the people in the business. Now the reason that's a principle, not a value is because they might have come from a firm or background where that wasn't allowed. You know, they were just expected to do their job and they weren't expected to input, so they might not come through the door with that as a as a value or something that they already clearly embody, have got experience with that's more because of External conditions rather than who they are.
Speaker 2:Values that we have, example, be be caring. So that is something that I think is clearly and non-negotiable, like you're either a caring person or you aren't, and so we look for people that exude the values of, of being caring, and if we don't see that in them during the interview process and we'll test against it, then it doesn't matter what's on the CV or what they say, it's just going to be a non-starter. So once, once they embody the values, we're ready to take them seriously as a candidate, but until that point it's like don't pass go. Really, in terms of the actual execution, it's as much as I said before about Acknowledging when people are not living up to the values, as well as it is celebrating when they are. It's easy to celebrate when people are, but it's harder to be able to pull them up on it when they're not.
Speaker 2:So, so, making sure that you you're honest with yourself and that you're doing that, and then, when people come and maybe ask a question, rather than try to be the smart alec that gives the answers to try and turn it back on them and get them to do some of the Thinking for themselves, often my question will be what would you do if you're being caring? Or what would you do if you're being brave, which is another one of our core values and then Often then they have that light bulb moment and they come to the conclusion themselves, and that makes them more equipped to be able to answer those questions themselves in the future and so develop their own capabilities and really start to embody the values. And that's the case with many things in life and many people asking questions is they've got the answer within themselves. It's just about asking smart, smart questions back, and I think you can do that through the lens of your values.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I mean it's brilliant to hear because that just sounds like it's fluid, it's like a Not necessarily a daily thing, but you're referencing them more casually in conversation, putting it back to the individuals in the team and getting them to take some kind of action or decision-making on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we've taken the time to actually present those values, when they were Created, to the team and and go through talking them through it and what they mean and, you know, design them nicely and put them on the wall and put them on our website and put them front and centre. So they're there. But then the hard work begins, which is then about, as you say, having the day-to-day conversations. But at least you've got something there to have conversations about and they're very clear. But then it's, you know, it's a journey then to get them to stick and to get them to show up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's no. It's no easy task. I think a lot of businesses have seen them written on a wall somewhere in a big corporate, but that's it. They've been written, never get referenced to. All people don't action them. You know whether that's a manager or a director in a business, they're not behaving by those values. So you've got them going. Why would anyone in the company? I think they're not important. Yeah, it's great to hear how important they are. You know another reason why we invited you on because I knew you had this structure and you can see the importance in them. Have you seen them? People within the team Create some innovations off the back of it, then specifically to think him how could we be more brave or how could we be more caring? You know, have you seen people kind of come to the table with a new idea, however big or small?
Speaker 2:We've definitely seen it used as a language. So another one's be a team player, and they'll regularly say congratulate one or thank one another for being a team player, whether it's covering for them when they're on holiday or just helping to take on a task for them, and they'll use the language of it. But in terms of actual innovation and current innovations, none that easily jumped to mind. Sometimes that bit is because they're being selfless, though. So Annabelle did a skydive recently to raise money for her nephew, who unfortunately passed of cancer, and so we made a big deal of that as well as contributing. We're getting a picture of her doing a skydive printed on a big canvas, one for her to take home, one to keep in the office, and we posted on social media and we about her being brave and we and being caring, and we told her that as well. But that's where I think, as individuals, we're not as good at shining that mirror on ourselves, and often it requires others to do that for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's a great example of where it's kind of the blurred lines between business and then what people do outside of work as well and how the working harmony. You know we all work to earn some money, whatever that might be, and that money influences what you do outside of work as well. So the two are completely connected.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's nice to hear things like that. Equally, you know, team members can think about the values you know regularly and it sounds like you're talking about them daily. Just gives people an opportunity to say you know well, how could I celebrate caring more? That could be some of the simple saying do we answer the calls quicker than we did before, two rings rather than five rings or whatever, even though that might sound like efficiency, the person who receives the call or picks it up, and how that's dealt with as a call you can elevate something like that, can't you, and so certainly that value becomes important to a customer or a client.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I really like that. Obviously, it becomes real then, doesn't it? But you've given them a framework by which to have those conversations and have that thinking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, the more that you can talk about them, you know, the more important they come to a business and they become a day-to-day thing. And that's the problem we see is people can go through the process of writing them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Going. Yeah, we've approved it. Three, four, five people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then they never look at them ever again. And so, even though we might have created a visual identity to reflect those values and some things about being efficiency, or always there, or, and then someone phones our emails and they don't pick up the phone and they don't respond for four days, five days on email, yeah, because that's what we've done. You know, we've put some nice clothes on something, but it's not active, living and breathing and it's ultimately trying to get them into the day-to-day. So, you know, even though it's from natural conversations you're having and asking, you know, turn it back on them and saying, well, how would you be brave or how would you be more caring. It's a brilliant way of delivering them, because the being spoken about also means people can see that they're important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think words like values and brand are too much pigeonholed towards marketing. So it's like that scene is not our responsibility or not our area, because we're the accountant, so we're the finance panel, we're the payroll. It's like that's marketing, that values and branding thing. So I think if you can actually use the language of being brave and being a team player and being caring and being dependable, which is our others, you almost don't need to talk about them being values. They're just what we expect of people and how we want to behave around here. It's like your personality as a business, isn't it really Like? I think, if you use language like that, that's what everybody's responsible for. So, although the values and the brand is what people should embody, I think it's harder for a lot of people to recognise that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, completely. I remember someone saying to me years and years ago saying don't tell me, you're a comedian, just make us laugh.
Speaker 2:You're brilliant.
Speaker 1:You don't need to tell the outside world your values in the same way. You actually just say them, breathe them, and then people will feel them. So if you're going around making people laugh, people are going to say you should be a comedian. Then you go. Well, actually I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it'll make sense. So that's how it should be expressed within and then people feel it. You create a good culture and then people buy into you or they don't, and that's fine as well. So we're close to wrapping up now and, of all the things you've mentioned today, your own kind of personal values, which might have influenced some of your business decisions and values within the business as well. But if you were to pass on one of those values to a younger person, whether that's a team member or family, what's the value that you think you hold strongest and would try and encourage someone else to adopt? Or celebrate.
Speaker 2:I think it would be about finding joy. You used that word before and I might not have come to that word myself, but when you used it it really resonated with me. So it would be to find joy in what you do, because I just believe that life is too short for us to waste. You know, not every day can be great. Not every day can be a good day. We all go through bad moments. It's not pretending that life's gonna be all sunshine and rainbows of course it's not but at least make sure that if you're gonna be doing something for years and years and years of your life, you can't waste that time. You've got to enjoy the thing that you get out of bed and go and do every day. So I think it will be finding the areas in your life, the people that you hang around with, the career that you pursue. Make sure that it's something that gives you joy and, if not, be brave enough to be able to step out and find a way in to something else that you will enjoy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, we're all in work for long enough, aren't we? During the course of a week. So I'd agree with that. You know our industry well because that's where you've specialized in accountancy and the digital and creative space. So you probably know from some of your clients how tough and stressful it can be and people can critique your work and things like that, even though you think, well, I've done this for a long time, I kind of know what I'm doing. I always try and say to any team member and certainly in the creative space designers we are ultimately getting paid to do a hobby and we're quite lucky to do that, because only sports people and artists to some degree, I would say, a hobbyist and can get paid to do that. So, even in bad times, it's like I'm still ultimately doing a hobby, something that I you know, in the moment I really enjoy. And so, like you say, everyone has ups and downs, but you wouldn't know if you were enjoying life if that wasn't the case, would you it just?
Speaker 2:often I'd ask the question is if we get this working well, will you enjoy it? Because if the answer is no, you're in the wrong career. You know we can work with something that you're going to find joy when we get it working the way that you want it to. But if, fundamentally it's just not something that you're going to enjoy, then what's the point in putting all the sweat and effort? And you might as well put the sweat and effort in somewhere else where you are going to find joy. But it's amazing what people can achieve when they've got passion for something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. Thanks a lot for giving us insights into both personal life and values, and business values as well Really good to hear, kind of how seriously you take them as well. You know, I think they're massively important to shape people and culture and businesses, and I think we'll get better performing businesses when it's done well, like yourself. So, yeah, thanks a lot for giving us your time. We'll catch up again soon, no doubt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no problem, Dave, thanks for having me and great that you're doing this as well. It's a really good topic here and I look forward to listening to more episodes.
Speaker 1:Thanks a lot.
