Branding. Done.
Dawn Creative goes through all elements of branding, from the basics through to the real nitty-gritty.
Each episode, we host a new guest, to speak about how different areas of branding have impacted their role, their business, and the projects they have worked on.
We'll speak to MD's, marketing managers, creatives, and people across various businesses to get a variety of viewpoints on why branding, and all the elements within it, are so important.
Branding. Done.
Brand Identity and Growth with Laura from the Honey Project
Laura pulls back the curtain on the Honey Project's mission to combat the alarming prevalence of counterfeit honey, revealing why authenticity and sustainability are at the core of their brand. With a strong background in brand strategy, she explains how they've focused on purpose and values from the very start, aiming to reconnect people with nature and contribute positively to the environment. Learn about the delicate balance between maintaining brand integrity and allowing room for growth during the first challenging year.
As we discuss the evolution of the Honey Project, Laura highlights their test-and-learn approach and how they've navigated the competitive landscape with creativity and courage. From potential event opportunities to standing out in a crowded market, get inspired by their commitment to strong brand strategy and meaningful branding efforts. Finally, enjoy the reveal of the truths and the lie about Laura's intriguing anecdotes, and take away valuable lessons on staying true to one's brand identity while embracing innovation.
Today we've got Laura on the podcast. Really excited by this, we reached out, which I'll give reason for in a little bit. Laura, do you want to say hello and introduce yourself as to kind of what you do and what you're up to and what this project's all about?
Laura Eyles:is a creative agency in London and I've been here for about two and a half years now, so working a lot on brand strategy projects, predominantly in the sort of FMCG, consumer goods space. And also I'm the co-founder of the Honey Project and my co-founder, ed, is also my partner, and we started the brand a year ago actually a year ago in July, so happy anniversary to us this month.
David O'Hearns:There you go and you're on our podcast to celebrate. Yeah, exactly, we're going to talk more about the Honey Project. That's the main reason why you're on here. Obviously, you're at a successful agency as well, so you've got insight into how to develop a brand and stuff, which is great. Before we dive into that, on our podcast, we do a two truths and a lie, so I think you've prepared a few of these and at the end of the podcast we'll just come back and we'll see whether anyone listening can guess what the lie was our little guess at the end and then we'll finish from there. So go on, you want to share your two juice and a lie with?
Laura Eyles:us. Yeah, sure, um. So the first one is that ed and I started talking about the idea for the honey project on our fifth date. Another one is that we have a beehive on our roof in London. And the third one is that I've been to Glastonbury Festival eight times, wow, okay, try to have some more context to that to come.
David O'Hearns:No, no, fine. So obviously I'll have a little guess at the end. There's some very specific numbers in there. Are they a curve ball or are they so specific? Because that's the reality. So we will see. We will see later.
David O'Hearns:So you just touched on Blaster River as one of those three things you may or may have not been, who knows, we'll find out a little bit later. We reached out to you to talk a little bit more about the Honey Project, based on something that we saw, where you know you're looking to get the brand into, you know different places, get a little bit of exposure, uncover the kind of the honey market really, as to what you know, what it stands for, good and bad, and thought you'd maybe reach out to Harrods but didn't get the success or the response you were looking for because they found you were too blasted, brief and we just thought it was a really interesting response for a number of reasons that we'll go into. But how did you initially think there's probably something that you're going to reproach hard and then like, oh right, well, that's a bit disappointing, but how do you feel about when it happened? And then how do you reflect on it a little bit further down the line?
Laura Eyles:What are your thoughts? Yeah, I think you know, with the honey project, I think our whole approach to it has been this sort of test and learn as we go along. So I think that how we felt about the rejection was kind of, you know, not too hard hitting in a way, because it was really a testament to what the brand stands for and our mission. And I think if you're going to get a rejection of any sort for them to what the brand stands for and our mission, and I think if you're going to get a rejection of any sort, for them to love the brand and understand the brand and you know totally sort of 70s flower power joy that the brand embodies for them to understand that was actually kind of great.
Laura Eyles:So it's sort of like congratulations, in a way, for being so sort of strong in your values and who you are as a brand. And it's okay if it doesn't fit every retailer or every person or every audience. So, you know, not too hard hitting and I think it's kind of exciting in a way. It kind of motivates you to think and dig a bit deeper and think about who are we really trying to target? And you can't please everyone all the time, and I don't think any brand should try and please everyone all the time. So I think knowing who your audience are, knowing who's really going to love your brand and buy into the values of it, is so important.
David O'Hearns:so it just kind of reaffirms that message in a way yeah, there's something that I I picked up on there because it's it's too brown and potentially going to work together in some way. But, as you're saying, harrods are saying, no, I don't think that kind of fits and sits with our portfolio of other brands that we let in our four walls. Yeah, like you say, it's good from their perspective that they're saying a no to it. Do you think the brand that you've created, trying to put in harrods anyway, was maybe would that happen? Or did you just think, well, why not? I've seen other things in handrails that sit and fit. Or or did you just think, why not just try it? Or maybe it's not reflective of their brand?
Laura Eyles:yeah. So we got into Selfridges earlier this year, which was super exciting, and then I think you know it kind of had that motivation to think where else can we go? And yeah, I think you know Selfridges probably felt like a more natural fit for the brand. But it was definitely that attitude of you know why not? And I think totally get it from on from Howard's perspective.
Laura Eyles:You know you have to respect them, sort of understanding their own brand and its values and the sort of aesthetic that they want to create in store and a big kind of playful, kind of challenger brand.
Laura Eyles:You know, really disrupting the shelf is maybe not that setting that they want, but I think it's interesting to think about. I think just because the consumer might be slightly different in that store, it doesn't mean they're not into this sort of new model of consumerism. I think if you think of brands like who Gives a Crap, the toilet paper brand or Brew Good a Beer you know there's loads of examples of Tony Cioccoloni, for example just because, I don don't know, your customer might be a slightly different, you know, into more premium brands potentially. I think it's not to say that they're also not interested in the more playful brands that give back and do good. So I think, um, it's, it's almost a nice challenge to have like totally respect their decision, but it'd be really interesting to see, actually, if their consumers would be willing to buy it, and I think they would, yeah and salvages is, you know, like a high-end store, isn't it?
David O'Hearns:yeah, well, why do you think they they took it on, you know, is that more because they they believe in a story more and they they want to stand up for individuals and yeah, it's like challenger brands. Do you think you got that?
Laura Eyles:feeling from them more? Yeah, definitely, I think they're really really interesting retailer. For that reason, um, claire goldhill actually reached out to us, uh, and she's just you know, her and her team, I think, are constantly looking for new and interesting brands to bring into the store. Um, you know, some last some only go on the shelf for a couple of months, but it's just a really interesting store. That is almost like a testing ground for a lot of brands and we've done a lot of sampling there. You know they're really welcoming to let you meet customers, chat to them, tell your story, and you can kind of do that as many times as you like. So, yeah, they definitely just create an environment where they're really interested to invest in new and exciting brands and I think, as a result, there's no reason why the people that shop there for super premium goods also wouldn't be interested in these new and exciting brands as well.
David O'Hearns:And it was their words from Harrods really to say and you're a bit too Glastonbury, Is that pretty much a quote?
Laura Eyles:Yeah, it's just yeah, it's in the took Glastonbury for us, but love the period.
David O'Hearns:Because I think if you went around Glastonbury and asked everyone what their job role was, it usually varied, yes, at different levels of any organisation. Exactly, quite a popular music festival, isn't it as well? Yeah, yeah, so a brand like that appeals to a lot of different people. For some degree of escapism or point of difference. Exactly, but for some degree of escapism. I'll point a difference. There's quite a bit of reference, isn't there? They've not referenced something that's really small and obscure. Yeah, they've referenced something that's really popular.
Laura Eyles:Yeah, it's so true I hadn't really thought about that. It's actually it's a space that people can go to, you know, to completely escape. It brings this joy. I think the Honey Project's all about that. We've always said it's a brand that looks good, does good, gives back. You know it appeals to so many people. Yes, it's aimed at probably younger, more sustainably minded consumers, but it's not to say that, like our parents don't, friends don't love it and our grandparents don't love it, because it just has this joy to it that that is quite infectious in a way yeah, I'm sure it's harrods as well.
David O'Hearns:I could be wrong here. Haven't they got behind those on their roof, or?
Laura Eyles:something like that. Yeah, I think they do. Actually, it's a popular thing these days. I think quite a lot of places have it.
David O'Hearns:I feel like I saw it on a TV program at some point where they make their own honey on the roof of Harrods. So who knows, maybe that's an objection somewhere.
Laura Eyles:Yeah, it's true A lot of those big retailers. They make their own honey, so Selfridges have loads of their own honey as well. So you know you're competing against their own brand, which is always a challenge.
David O'Hearns:Yeah. Well, there's other tricks of the trade that you'll know about anyway. Like I'll often reference. If people don't realize, when they're looking for Rice Krispies, the brain is saying pale blue to them because it will be. They don't? Yeah, a bit that it is. Yeah, there's no surprise that tesco's version of the same thing is in a pale blue pack. Of course you have that direct competition. Then you have kellogg's fighting back by rebranding the packaging, making kellogg bigger across the top of the packaging, to say, no, we're the standard and so you'll pay a bit more for the quality rather than get tesco's own version. So you always have those little walls, don't you that? Go on anyway. Yeah, for shelf space and stuff like that.
David O'Hearns:Do you want to give us a little bit of a story behind, kind of where this came from? You know you, you, you work in the brand and design industry anyway and you know we see loads of different people all the time. You can get inspired by certain things, but why, when you? You know you're busy and going quite a hard industry I've been in the industry for 28 years. You know it's full of deadlines and pressure and stuff like that. Why then go? You know what else I'm going to add to my life is a better brand and an other product. You know it's harder when you're manufacturing something and putting it into packaging and trying to get it on the shelf. That's a tough journey, isn't it? So do you want to give us a little bit of a story behind?
Laura Eyles:it. Yeah, sure, yeah. So actually, before Design Bridge and Partners, I was working for an agency called Blue Marlin and we were rebranding Honeybrand at the time and I think what I love so much about brand strategy is you get to become sort of an expert in a topic, often for a very short space of time. So, you know, fully immersed in the world of honey and topic, often for a very short space of time. So, you know, fully immersed in the world of honey, and it really shone a light on the category, a lot of the positives but also a lot of the negatives with it. And honey is the third most faked product in the world, which is quite staggering to find out. You know most of the honey on the supermarket shelf in the UK. On the back, you'll see, it just says a blend of EU and non-eu honeys, um, 70 of it comes from china and I think just, it's really, really hard to trace the authenticity of it, but it felt like such an obvious thing. You know it's the most natural product that you could possibly get. It's straight from nature. It should go straight into the jar. It should taste different every single time depending on the season and where the bees are foraged. But, like many other categories, as a consumer we're kind of conditioned to think that things should be perfect, you know, and it's blended and blended, and blended until it tastes and looks the same every time. But it really should be very different.
Laura Eyles:So I was chatting to my boyfriend about it and just was deeply frustrated by this. You know all these facts about the industry and thinking, you know. You know brands just also aren't doing good and giving back Like it's such an oblivious product to do that with. It's straight from nature. Giving back to nature directly benefits the bees and the honey you know. So why hasn't someone sort of made that full circle connection yet? And he always jokes. In an attempt to impress me he said why don't we do it ourselves? And I think that slightly snowballed and it just carried on going and then we did it where do you start on something like that really?
David O'Hearns:because you've been in and out of loads of different companies and people and I've done the same and sometimes you know you look at our own industry and think in theory, if I buy an apple mac and start designing, I've kind of set up a business overnight. I go to some place with a massive manufacturing plant, that's anything. Or you know the investment in this and tooling and everything that comes with it. Yeah, this has got layers to it.
Laura Eyles:so where do we even start? So I think the thing we're both brand strategists. So I think a lot of people start businesses with spreadsheets and numbers and modeling and figure out if that's actually going to work. But I think we kind of started it from the completely opposite angle businesses with spreadsheets and numbers and modeling and figure out if that's actually going to work. But I think we kind of started it from the completely opposite angle and thought, well, we'll do the bit we know how to do first.
Laura Eyles:So we started with the brand strategy and the branding and started to basically create a concept and idea of the brand that we would love to have. Whether it was actually going to exist in the world, we didn't know, but we basically set out to establish what our enemy was as a brand. I think that was really important for us. Like knowing all these facts is sort of, you know, highlighting that supermarket honey was our enemy and having that in our mind and what we want to kind of create to educate consumers and bring honey to the market that people deserve to have.
Laura Eyles:So, yeah, we started with the brand strategy, really establishing what we're for. You know, we talk about being on a mission to inspire people to fall back in love with nature. Rewilding Britain jar by jar, so for every jar we rewild 100 wildflowers with our charity partner and we're helping people to fall back in love with nature and we talk about using honey as the vehicle for change. So, yes, we sell honey, but it's really kind of the vehicle to get people to think about that full circle connection to nature and give back and do good, whilst they're also buying something that hopefully they love.
David O'Hearns:So you've sat down, developed a purpose, values you want to live and breathe by. All the things that we would do day to day in our roles and advise other people to do. Yeah, I guess, like anything in life, a lot of people don't know. That's the approach that most companies should take. Yeah, don't start to probably sit in a kitchen, name the company quite badly. Yeah, then maybe try and commission a really cheap logo from someone. Yeah, yeah, bank account and register the name of company's house and off you go.
David O'Hearns:You don't know what you don't know, do you don't know actually what you need to do. Sit down, think about the market, think where you want to be positioned, think where you want to stand for. Yeah, all of that influences the ultimate brand and then the identity, doesn't it? Well, unfortunately, people don't know that. That's where they're starting out, so you've kind of got a bit of an advantage against helping you to do that. Moving forward with that.
David O'Hearns:You know, once you, once you've got your strategy and you've got things that you stand by, how easy have you found it in this first year to really have to stick to it as well? Because we talk a lot in our agency about once you define values. The idea is that you need to kind of abide by them, but you can still innovate and be creative around those values and develop and evolve over time. Do you think it's become more natural because of your job that you can control them, or sometimes you're trying to go? Well, that's a tricky decision to make because it's not us. How are you finding that process and how are you doing it for yourself and not advising someone else?
Laura Eyles:Yeah, it's very interesting. You spend your life selling these things to people and then you're doing it for yourself and not advising someone else. Yeah, it's very interesting. You spend your life sort of selling these things to people and then you're the ones that actually have to live by them. It's so true. It's funny.
Laura Eyles:I think it's a bit of a divide. Sometimes it comes very, very naturally, I think, when we know what we stand for. We know what our enemy is. We're trying to rewild Britain.
Laura Eyles:Lots of the decisions we make are very obvious and intuitive for the brand. They're things that we would just obviously do. We need to do good, we need to give back, we want to make sure that the brand's still playful and engaging and disruptive to the market. So there's some things that we abide by that I think those values are easy to align with. I think it becomes tricky, actually, when you're thinking more of the practicalities of things. I think a lot of the time, some of the best or most sustainable values can often be more expensive. For example, you know, like all our jars are British, all our honey's always British. Of course, our labels are British, but it would cost a lot, lot less if we could buy our jars from China, but we won't because that's not aligned with the values of the brand. So I think that's where it becomes a lot harder to follow, because it's so tempting, financially and commercially, to be able to make slightly easier decisions. But to actually stay true to who you are, you have to sometimes make those sacrifices.
David O'Hearns:And that's the biggest challenge for anybody, isn't it? Which is why going through the process that you know so well means that, by documenting it, you have to hold yourself accountable. And that's the whole point of a brand. You can say what you like visually and through messaging and marketing campaigns. Then, if someone engages with your brand or your product or your service and it's complete opposite to what's been said, then you've just told a lie to the world. Haven't you Exactly a service and it's complete opposite to what's been said, then you've just told a lie to the world. Haven't you exactly down massively?
David O'Hearns:And even successful brands that keep themselves well alive occasionally will make the odd mistake because they've not stayed true to themselves or they thought they were saying truth themselves, but maybe their audience disagrees. Yeah, they have to kind of tweak themselves a little bit more, but it's a constant baffle, isn't it? You know it's a never-ending journey. Yeah, something that evolves through time as well. Definitely. Where do you see the honey project going? Have you? Have you got specific aspirations? You know, because there's some huge brands on the planet, not distinct honey, but just huge brands full stop. But then there's there's something nice about an independent, small brand that still has a punch and a weight about it but doesn't get to global domination side. Where do you see there's gonna be just a natural journey and see where it goes? Or are you now starting to think, oh, wait on, I can kind of drive this um a little bit further forward than I thought?
Laura Eyles:yeah, yeah, it's interesting question. I think it's definitely a sort of natural process. You know, as I said, we kind of have taken a sort of test and learn approach, especially in this first year. I think maybe the pressure's on a bit more now that we're entering year two, but in the first year definitely it was all about, you know, test things out, try things out, see what works, see what consumers like, go out there and chat to to people, see if they engage with the brand and love the brand and they have, which has been great.
Laura Eyles:So I think, going forwards it's as you talk about, you know, world domination things it can be hard when you you're referencing context of other brands obviously working in the branding industry, that the expectations and benchmark is so high. You know we're so used to seeing huge brands that have been super successful or we get to work with them when they're over a certain size. So I think it's hard to sometimes attach that in your mind, to think well, domination versus where we are. But I think the journey we're on is still basically trying to test and learn, still a bit of trial and error, and I think there's also a reality of again staying true to the values, being a British brand, everything being sourced in Britain. And as long as we've got that rewilding initiative going, there's also a bit of a limit to how big it can go. There's not physically enough honey in the UK to achieve global domination.
Laura Eyles:So at some point in the future whether we need to go abroad and suddenly champion, um, other honeys from other countries, that would be sort of you know its own venture. But I think it's very much like following its actual path at the moment and always just trying to look for, I suppose, um, the next few exciting things. So we've got two new flavors coming out soon. We're also looking to do some merchandise for anniversary, you know. So always looking for kind of little ways and little wins to kind of keep the brand moving forward and keep the brand growing as well. We did get a stall at Glastonbury you know what we talked about it this year and it would be kind of amazing. I think we maybe we'd have to merge it with another brand. It feels like a. I'm trying to work out how many people are going to buy a jar of honey at a music festival, but I think in some capacity we'd love to be there one day selling something, even if it's on a stand with someone else.
David O'Hearns:Yeah, yeah, we'll often talk to people about the word brand. I think sometimes it's misunderstood. I think most people in the street can probably say it's like a logo and colors, isn't it? You know, just the basic visual bit, rather than it's everything that the organization does. And sometimes I'll say, well, it's not just because the word brand sometimes means big in people's heads, because they're the brands that people engage with. You could still be a brand in your own town because you're delivering something, you have an idea, you have a method of doing it and you can stand out in the crowd as one retail store, couldn't you? Because that competition you've got is just a competition in your local streets. Yeah, you may have a brand for it, not just a random shop yeah, absolutely yeah.
Laura Eyles:At design bridge we talk a lot about you know stand for and stand out. Like, once you have that brand strategy, you have the values, you know what you stand for, then you know bring that to life. And I think that's what's been so important for us with the honey project as well. As you say, for any brand like, doesn't matter the size of your category or the competition like, there's always an opportunity to stand out and do something different. Like we said to ourselves, what would the Tony Cioccolone of honey look like? Or what would you know the who Gives a Crap of toilet paper look like?
Laura Eyles:Because we just looked at the honey shelf and we just thought it feels pretty outdated. It actually feels very unbranded A lot of the time. It just there was nothing interesting happening in it compared to you know, think of the peanut butter category and what Pippa Nut did to that and all the brands that followed. So we just thought there was definitely an opportunity to stand out, as you say, and actually be kind of that visually disruptive brand as well. So I mean, you'll see it on the packaging and the logo and identity, but it's all very 70s, flower power and extremely colourful.
David O'Hearns:I think the closer you look at certain things, like either products or sectors, you suddenly realise, suddenly realize that a lot of people looking the same in a sector yeah, expectation that we're a financial company, that we have to look a certain way, and maybe maybe not the point. Maybe you actually need to come across quite differently and think quite differently, to stand out, like you say, and get notices all for the right reason, not just doing it for the sake of it, and going in the right direction when it doesn't really get backed up in any way. Sometimes I wonder whether it's the lack of people being brave, maybe, and we've become so accustomed to things going the last way that looks. Isn't it so an expectation, rather than you know, zig and zag kind of concept, where you go in the right direction on purpose to stand out and get stories and get salvages, buying into the story and the brand, stuff like that, and just through your knowledge and what you've worked through, what would be the main thing and we kind of talked about some of this what would be the main thing you'd advise?
David O'Hearns:You know, maybe a brand that's just starting up, or maybe two years, three years in and a couple bits together, but now we're starting to realize, actually, maybe we haven't got enough here. What do you think? One of the most important things? That you just need to sit down, document something, get something in place. What would you say?
Laura Eyles:a few things that someone should really focus on yeah, um, I think you touched on it already really is is, is the brand thinking? I mean, obviously I'd say that as a brand strategist, but it is something that's overlooked for so long. You know, people can have the most amazing sales data of you know, the growth of their, of their brands, but then you have to actually think is there really a brand behind it? You know, is there really something emotional, that's clear what it stands for, or it's clear what the consumers get out of it? I think so often people think about the brand last, and then there's amazing sales, but they suddenly then need to sort of build a brand on top of it.
Laura Eyles:But I think if you can have that brand and its meaning and its identity and get people to identify with it, I think what's been so great about the Honey Project is people really comment on the branding. They see it and they go, wow, that's really interesting, well, that stands out, well, that looks different. And whether they buy or not, you know, almost doesn't matter at that point. It's just that they engage with it and they get it and they love it. And I think that means so much more to us than selling the jar, because that's the sort of foundation. I think that you can then build the brand on. You know, you can then hire the best salesperson in the world and they can sell it to everyone, because you've also you've already got the, the reassurance that people like it.
David O'Hearns:I mean, I think the whole story is brilliant and, you know, I think, luckily, we are seeing a movement, aren't we to some degree, of companies setting themselves out that way from the start? And I think it's important in our industry to encourage that clearly, because it's been a long, long time where you produce something, you sell it. You might make a profit, please, shareholders, no real deep understanding of why we're doing what we're doing, and I think we can help shape the future for that, can't we really? Yeah, we wish you the best of luck with the Honey project. Thank you, we'll look out for it. On the shelves. I'll need some nipping salvages in Manchester, and so on.
Laura Eyles:One of the things I was just going to add to that is also just from a branding aside. I think, going on this journey, one of the biggest learnings, in a way, has also been that there is no right way there's. One of the biggest learnings, in a way, has also been that there is no right way, like there's no template of how to set up a brand or how to do things. And at times that's really disconcerting and worrying and you always think am I doing things right? Am I doing things wrong? But I think the truth is is that there's no template of how to build a brand.
Laura Eyles:You know, some of the most successful brands in the world have the most crazy stories behind them. That was sort of a bit of luck and genius and somehow it worked. And others are, you know, deeply thought through and probably followed a very rigorous process. So I think that's quite liberating in a way is is there isn't a template and there isn't a right way. So I think that test and then approach has been great for us and, you know, would encourage anyone to sort of give it a go and try it out. You know what's the way that can happen. I think you can stumble into things, can't? You, and you know, would encourage anyone to sort of give it a go and try it out.
David O'Hearns:You know what's the way that can happen I think you can stumble into things, can't you? You know, there's certain things that I think we'd advise that it'd be good practice to have x, y or z in place. But, yeah, of course, you know, tried to make the strongest glue possible and end up with the weakest glue, yeah, and then it became something you could stick on and off on a wall on their post-it note brand. So that was by fluke to get to that point. Then it becomes this iconic brand over time. So yeah, like I said, there's no definite way. We never know who will be successful and who won't be successful. To some degree, there's a lot more to it than just putting the structure in place and a strong identity. So yeah, so good luck with it all Before we depart.
David O'Hearns:At the very start, we asked you if there were two truths and a lie. I'm going to have one guess and then you can reveal the answer. As I said at the start, you were quite specific on numbers, which I sometimes think, ooh, that could be interesting. But I'm going to go for your first one. Feel like you've got a nice story on your website. You've been having a few conversations around things. I'm going for the specific fifth date one. That's that. That that's a true sorry, I think. And then the hive on the roof. It's definitely a possibility, isn't it? But then I think you spoke quite passionately about glastonbury, so I'm going to go with glastonbury, the eighth, the fifth, that's a specific one, and maybe the hive is something you'd love to have, but maybe you haven't got a roof to take. Well, that's my guess, that's exactly right, yeah, completely right.
Laura Eyles:exactly that we don't have a beehive on the roof, but maybe one one day we will. Yeah or multiple, yeah, multiple.
David O'Hearns:Bigger than Harrods. Well, there you go. I managed to guess. Hopefully people listening in also did so. Yeah, once again, best of luck with it. Thanks again for joining us on this. It's been great to get the story behind the Honey Project, but also from someone who's knowledgeable in their day job and career as well.
Laura Eyles:Thank you so.
