Branding. Done.
Dawn Creative goes through all elements of branding, from the basics through to the real nitty-gritty.
Each episode, we host a new guest, to speak about how different areas of branding have impacted their role, their business, and the projects they have worked on.
We'll speak to MD's, marketing managers, creatives, and people across various businesses to get a variety of viewpoints on why branding, and all the elements within it, are so important.
Branding. Done.
Employer Branding with Shoshanna of Fairy Job Mother
In this episode of Branding Done, we dive into a question that many businesses wrestle with: is there really a difference between your employer brand and your main brand? Shoshana, the founder of Fairy Job Mother, joins us to share her insights on this and explain how to build an employer brand from scratch if you don’t already have one.
Shoshana’s journey from corporate life to launching her own business is nothing short of inspiring. After spotting gaps in how young professionals are prepared for the modern workforce, she made it her mission to bridge that divide. With experience working alongside brands like Marks & Spencer, BT, and Amazon, and as host of the “Future Talent Talks” podcast, Shoshana is full of practical advice and fresh perspectives.
Together, we explore why recruitment and branding are so closely linked. Shoshana explains why a bad candidate experience can impact more than just hiring—it can ripple out and affect how people see your brand as a whole. She also breaks down how to align your company’s values with how you hire, which is increasingly important to socially conscious young professionals.
Looking ahead, we discuss how recruitment is evolving, with companies focusing more on skills than formal qualifications. Shoshana also shares how technology is changing hiring practices and how brands can adapt.
Whether you’re looking to improve your employer brand or just starting to build one, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways. Don’t miss it!
Great Well, welcome back to Branding Done, our next series, and today really excited to have Shoshana from the Fairy Job. Mother, make sure I say that right. It's a great company name. We like it. It says exactly what it does. A little bit of playfulness as well in it. Yeah, luckily I managed to say it right this time. How are you anyway?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm really good. Thank you, dave, I'm really good and I'm excited to join you today.
Speaker 1:Great stuff. Well, do you want to give just a little brief background, you know, expand upon the little intro?
Speaker 2:I've given you just a flavour of what it is you actually do, maybe why you do it yeah, absolutely, so I'll try and keep this brief and I've actually just like redone all my messaging, so this is probably going to be the first time that I'm actually saying it, so I'm hoping it comes out right, uh. But yeah, I am founder of Fairy Job Mother, which is essentially a company which is all about empowering young people with the skills and confidence to thrive at work and also working very closely with their managers and leadership teams to help them help young people thrive at work. Essentially, and just a little bit of background in terms of how I got into what I was doing, I started my business around three years ago when I was still working in the corporate world and initially was someone at the beginning of my career and who felt a little bit frustrated and confused. Obviously, school and university you choose to go to university. It does a good job at you know teaching you, teaching you a lot about particular topics, but in terms of how to actually succeed in the working world, you aren't really given that much guidance around that. So I remember starting my first job after education and just being really, really confused and I started to document that journey online on social media to share my journey as someone starting their first job and kind of progressing into more senior positions from that, and I was able to build a little bit of a community through doing that and monetize that as a side hustle early on, working with different brands to help them promote their opportunities for students and graduates.
Speaker 2:And I did that as a side hustle for about two and a half years and then, as of April 2023, so kind of around 18 months ago I decided to leave my full-time job and take a risk and see if I could make this a full-time thing, which is really where I started bringing in the work that I do with employers and organisations to help their young employees set them up for the world of work, so to really help them develop the skills and confidence to to thrive, because it's not something we're taught in the education system.
Speaker 2:And in the past 18 months I've been lucky enough to work with some amazing organizations the likes of Marks and Spencer's, bt, amazon as well, as well as being meant featuring the press and regularly lately as well. And in addition to that and again I said I'd keep this brief I also do actually host my own podcast with a friend called Future Talent Talks, which is where we discuss all things gen a to z when it comes to work. So really challenging stereotypes and diving into things brands and employers should be mindful of when looking to attract and retain those generations. So yeah, that's just a little bit of information about me I know sounds sounds fantastic.
Speaker 1:Um, seems like there's a really strong purpose behind. Obviously you've experienced something there and then thought I need to take action on it. So if you're feeling it, multiple other people must be feeling it, so there must be a need for what you're delivering and clearly it's like the science of success, with some of the names you've mentioned there and some of the coverage that you're getting. So that's great to hear. Before we get into some specific areas, specific questions, things like that, we like to play a quick game just to get to maybe know you a little bit more. You'll be familiar with it, called Two Truths and a Lie. Do you want to try and run three things by us and then at the end we'll see whether we can work out which one might be the lie?
Speaker 2:yes, oh, I'm being put on the spot here, so my first one is what shall I go with? Okay, I've been featured on a billboard in times square. Times Square, I have a best-selling book and I volunteer as a fosterer for Guide Dogs UK all right, okay, so quite, quite varied that.
Speaker 1:Um, well, we'll let people listening in have a bit of a mull over that and I think, um, no googling or checking socials there, because you'll probably find out the answers at a thought. Um, but interesting, right, okay, so we're obviously a brand agency. Um, we see brand as everything that the organization does, from top to bottom. Yeah, every decision it makes is brand related. Unfortunately, not everyone else sees it like that.
Speaker 1:I think, um, the word has been misunderstood for years and maybe a lot of people, if you stopped in the street, would say the brand is. Is it like the logo, colors and type and you know that type of thing? Um, and not realize that it impacts, or it should impact, absolutely everything, just as a like a top overview at the moment in the recruitment space and obviously a younger generation coming into the workforce and things like that. How do you think the two are connected? How do you feel that they're connected between companies? So sometimes companies have a big brand you mentioned a few but you'd think they'd do it. Well, every decision would be brand related, but I'd imagine it's not sometimes. And then you've got other people that may have a kind of a brand, but they're not a household name. How do you see the landscape at the moment, the relationship between a brand and then the recruitment process?
Speaker 2:I think it's really interesting. I think, whether they realize it or not, like every organization, every business does have an employer brand, whether they have specifically invested time in building that or putting a strategy behind it. Every business has some kind of aspect and I do think they are connected. But a lot of the time in the work that I'm doing I'll see that internally those teams aren't really connected. So typically in an organization there'll be a marketing team and then there'll be an HR team and a lot of the time the HR team don't really know much about marketing because that isn't their background, and equally, the marketing team know lots about marketing but they don't really know much about HR and a lot of the time those two teams aren't really talking and aren't really working together. So then you sometimes end up with, even though they are intertwined as per se, you sometimes then end up with two separate things. You have a brand as a whole especially if you're a consumer facing brand that maybe the public will know but then also sometimes you end up with an employer brand which is this slightly separate thing and, yeah, people, people can struggle to see the difference between the two. I think one of the main reasons I was invited onto this podcast is because I'm connected to Amy from your company on LinkedIn and on my podcast. One of the episodes we released was around the impact of rejection on your brand as a whole, because a lot of the time companies have lots of applicants especially in my area where companies hire graduate schemes and they only can hire 50 people and they get 3 000 applications and they don't actually realize the impact on their brand. So I do think it has a huge impact.
Speaker 2:Um, personal example for me that was a company I worked at. It was kind of one of my first part-time jobs and I worked there for a few months. I met my manager once. She didn't really speak to me and then I had my first review and she decided that she wanted to get rid of me, even though I'd only spoken to her once and I didn't actually know what I'd done. And I kid you not, this is like a brand that we'll all know I won't say who. I have not walked into their shop since and this was like seven or eight years ago because the impact that had on me. So they not only lost me as an employer, I don't think they cared about that hiring process and bad rejection processes on their consumer brands, and these people that they maybe aren't treating right are actually potential customers as well, so it is really important. There is definitely an overlap, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. How do you find when you're speaking to a candidate Obviously you're looking after a client, in this instance and you're saying there's an opportunity, xyz company how do candidates typically react? They might know the brand name, but it might be a company that maybe they don't know. Either way, how do candidates typically react to that process? So I'm old enough to remember a time where you might have found a job in a paper or somewhere else, yeah, and you knew nothing about the company, nor could you find out anything about the company. I just had to turn up for the interview and what they were telling me was true you know that's it?
Speaker 1:how do you think candidates today in the modern digital world approach that process before they determine whether they even want to go for the interview process?
Speaker 2:definitely online, specifically social media, definitely online, especially. I mean, I think one of the key differences that not a lot of brands realize and understand is some of those kind of key household names that are traditionally really known. They don't necessarily have the attraction that they once did, or maybe, chances are, young people don't actually, they may have heard of your brand, but they have no clue what actually does, and just because you are a fortune 500 company or just because you are one of the big four, it doesn't mean they have any interest in working for you. There's a completely different generation of brands on social media. So the likes of Gymshark, the likes of Oddmuse, the likes of Lounge Underwear, who are absolutely smashing on social media when it comes to their marketing as a whole but also employer branding, those are the type of brands that they really, really want to work for.
Speaker 2:So if you, you know, if young people don't, if a job comes to them they don't know who are, probably one of the first things they'll do is go on social media, your website and a lot of the time to them. It's not actually clear what you do as well, as there's typically lots of jargon on websites and I think yeah. So, to answer your question, social media is definitely one of the main places people go and it's interesting because some companies do a really good job at showcasing what they do and showcasing the culture and what it's like to work there, but equally, some don't and their websites or their job boards or whatever is still kind of very client focusing, which is potentially quite confusing to anyone applying for a job if they're trying to figure out what you do or why they should attend the interview or why they should apply.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you think? Obviously candidates are looking a bit deeper into how the organization operates. So let's say it's an fmcg brand, you can find articles, pr story. You can dig deep into a company and find out exactly where they maybe get their product from or materials from and stuff like that. So actually quite early on, they might even just bow out and say no, they're not the company. For me, regardless of how they look and feel and their marketing messaging, it might be that they uncover things that they just don't think are right. Do you find that being more commonplace these days as well?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, especially for lots of the young people that I work with. They they're not stupid. They know that a brand or an employer will make out they're the most amazing person to work for on their website. They understand that. So they'll actually dig a bit deeper and they'll, of course, go on social media, but they won't. They'll look at your own, the company's accounts great but they'll also be looking for videos of past candidates that have interviewed there, or people that currently work there that are sharing their experiences, or they'll go to things like Facebook groups and they'll get their information from there as well. And again, I think a lot of companies don't realize that candidates are, especially when the job market is so competitive right now it's. I can't think of any specific data points, but anyone that is looking for a job, I can tell you they're finding it hard right now and candidates are fed up. They're fed up with getting ghosted and they are really now taking things back into their own hands and they're almost. If they're having a negative experience, they are 100% sharing it online. And you know, we all know of Glassdoor. But, again, I don't think a lot of employers and brands are really thinking of TikTok, because there are loads of unhappy candidates at loads of companies on TikTok and these companies just getting bashed or Facebook groups.
Speaker 2:There's a Facebook group which I'm part of and it's called Gals who Graduates. It's like a Facebook group for like females that graduates, basically, and I think there's around 80,000 group members. And I remember there was an example a few months ago of a young person that had applied for like a software engineering graduate scheme. And for these graduate schemes there's lots of different stages and one of the first stages, like a technical assessment, and that person had carried out the technical assessment. They'd spent hours preparing for it, they submitted it and the submission failed, um, and then that was the last day they could submit, basically. So they emailed the support email that they were given and the company basically came back and said you know, there's no glitch, there's nothing wrong with the system, you've clearly just missed the deadline and not done it. And obviously this person was furious because they'd spent hours preparing. They posted on that group, they wrote the company's name, they shared the information. Then there were literally hundreds of comments from like hundreds of other people that were also, that had the same situation. But what companies don't realize is that post is going to be there forever. That's a well-known group. Every time someone goes and wants to apply for x company, they're going to go on social media, they're going to go to that group and those negative comments are going to be there forever. Because it's a closed facebook group. There's nothing that employer can do about it.
Speaker 2:So hopefully that gives you a little bit of an insight into, yes, that information is being sourced in a different way and I'd say also, in addition to that, I think, like you know, young people do have higher standards when it comes to things like that because, because I think, from their perspective, realistically, based on the state of the economy and affordability, they're doing all these things that they've been told to do by society. They're going to school, they're getting good grades, they're going to university, they're doing all these things and they're promised that job and they can't get it because it's so hard to get a job right now. And they're promised that job and they can't get it because it's so hard to get a job right now. Or when they do get that job, they'll be working for five, ten years and they're never going to have enough money to buy that house because things are so expensive. So all these things that have been promised to them by society, they aren't actually. They aren't actually attainable. So, as a result because they need to arguably work 10 times harder they they have.
Speaker 2:What's the words? They have higher standards. So they'll be looking out for on your company website or on your socials. Can they see diverse in your team? Are you just hiring all white males or an all white team, or is your team diverse? They'll be looking for things like do you care about the environment? They'll be really looking into your practices. So I think again, they're more strict and stringent about those things as well, because they have to be yeah, um.
Speaker 1:No, we talk about it a lot and I have done for years. Um, again, I can remember designing and developing the first website that we ever did as an agency was probably about 20 odd years ago. Um, and from that point, companies have slowly, slowly, got more exposed.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Prior to that, you just lived in your building and if someone didn't like what you did, you'd tell your friend down the pub and that was about as far as it went. We're not in that world now. So we talk from a brand perspective and say you've got to put your best foot forward in all areas. Got to put your best foot forward in all areas. You can't then just put out a lie either, because eventually you'd be found out through the interview process, wouldn't you? By the time you get into the company, or even in your first month. So it was not anything like what they said it was, so I'll leave.
Speaker 1:So it's just a waste of time and effort, isn't it as well? So people got to understand how exposed they are, I think, to the market, both from a customer perspective as well. You might choose not to buy a product. Also, why would I want to work for a company that I don't believe in? For some of the things that I found out online? So I think everyone needs to be way more aware of that. Do you think there is a difference, or do you think there should be a difference, between what you class as the brand and then what people term as an employer brand. Do you think there's a difference there or do you think it's one of the same thing? It's just how you go about delivering the employer brand.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, as a whole, every organisation has a brand, and your employer brand is part of that, and your employer brand is part of that, but I think there are different strategies to, for example, acquiring a customer versus acquiring an employee.
Speaker 1:That is aligned with your company's values and what you're looking for. Yeah, I'm of a view that it's a one entity thing. It's like if you're going to employ people it should be based obviously a bit of skill set around it, cultural fit. But you should also be looking at your own values and your purpose and saying does that align? The candidates obviously looking in the same way and thinking does that align to me in an ideal world, if you get some of that aligned, then you can generally get a better performing team and culture moving forwards, because you're on a similar page at the very start obviously you work with lots of, lots of different people and this may be an opportunity to big up a client, or you might want to keep it quiet, but explain it, has it been?
Speaker 1:has it been a great example that either you've experienced or you've heard some of the people that you look after experience from a brand where everything has been delivered really well, to a really high standard? You know every part of the journey is. You know, getting people excited and enthusiastic about where they're going to start working oh, I was thinking about this.
Speaker 2:Well, I think. I think it's what it is really challenging to get everything right, because I can think of some companies who do a really amazing job at the attraction piece and getting people excited about the brand and getting people to want to apply, but then, when candidates are actually in the process, the rest of the process has been negative and I think lots of brands are quite good at that. So, for example, some of the brands I mentioned before like the likes of like Tala, for example, um, which is the um like activewear brand owned by Grace Beverly um for those listening that know who Grace Beverly is and um, they do an amazing job at like getting people interested in the company, because it's one of these brands that are like do an amazing job at socials, but then they've been um. I've seen lots of videos lately around how awful their hiring process actually is and loads of comments giving really negative feedback. So I can think of lots of brands who do a great job at the attraction piece but can't do um.
Speaker 2:In terms of a specific um company that does a good job holistically, I can't think of a specific one, but what I can say is and I think this might be quite surprising is, I think, the legal industry in general, and again, this isn't every legal firm, but I think they are doing a really, really good job overall. If you go on to TikTok, there are so many law firms that have TikTok accounts and they're actually doing quite a good job at them and also because of the industry that they work within, they have to be very stringent in their processes, they have to make sure they're doing everything, everything correct, and I just think the legal industry as a whole are paving the way in terms of what a good process looks like, which that's. That was very surprising to me, but it's true, because everyone thinks of the law and the legal industry is very outdated, but I'd say it's actually the opposite. They, they're all using ai in their work and they're talking like. It's very interesting actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that will come as a surprise to people. I think you're right. I think there's a few industries that we would sometimes say sometimes aren't where they need to be. Finance sector can be historically quite behind the times and legal you may be putting that as well but it's interesting to know that some of them are moving. Obviously, the financial space is moving at a rate, um, you know, with the likes of monza and things like coming into play which are very the likes of barclays and nat west and stuff like that, you know, appealing to a completely different demographic and audience. So everything's moving and changing quite rapidly, isn't it? And maybe the recruitment process and employer brand maybe is not moving quite at the same speed. You know, maybe that's a space, obviously, which is why you're in it as well is to try and, um, help bridge some of that gap, and maybe that's an area where it does need to be worked a little bit more broadly. Maybe companies need to understand their own brand a bit better and realize that it does impact all parts of the business. You know, it's not just a marketing tool, it's everything that the company does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with, you know, the younger generation, as you said, either finding it hard to get work, or choosing who they do or do not want to work with. How do you see and find the recruitment process these days? Obviously, the pandemic changed things of how people work and operate, whether you commute or don't commute, or whether you work remotely. But going through the process to even get to the point where you've been given an offer, whether that's in two days a week or not, or it's fully remote, whatever that might be, what do you think is a good process? Now, everyone probably do it slightly differently, but is there a way that you think a younger generation would have an expectation for?
Speaker 2:I think it's interesting because I think a lot of the time they don't. I mean, especially if you're looking for your first job, you don't really know what to you don't really know what to expect, so you kind of just deal with whatever's given to you. But the way I would say that, the way things that are being done, that there are changes being made, but so for I mean, I can talk to you about some trends I'm seeing. So specifically and again this is mainly focusing at large organizations. With large organizations, um, the job market is very competitive. But actually one of the great things that's happening at the moment with lots of kind of larger fortune 500 organizations is previously they were very caught up in kind of Russell Group University.
Speaker 2:One of the things I've noticed is, just because you went to the best university, it doesn't necessarily actually make you an amazing employee. And equally, they're now starting to understand that just because someone doesn't have experience, that's not any wrongdoing on their part. There are lots of people that can't get experience when they're studying because they don't have friends and family that can get them opportunities or because they, quite frankly, have bills to pay, so they need to be working that part-time job the whole time. So now lots of these companies are actually moving to a, to a skills based um hiring process rather than a kind of experience and education based process. So now lots of employers that are actually taking away their grave requirements or or saying you don't need any experience, like we understand that you are not likely to have experience, and the people that do, they are in a privileged position, so they're now changing their hiring process away. So some companies, lots of these companies, you don't need a cv. Instead there'll be an application form where you're asked questions around why do you want to work there? Or they're really kind of trying to delve into, like specific skills that you have. So I think that's quite good because it's helping to level the playing field a little bit more.
Speaker 2:I think also there's some things being done around AI and the impact that's having. So obviously now, now, because the job market is so competitive, students, graduates, young people that are applying for apprenticeships they're having to apply for like 50 plus because it's just so competitive, and I don't blame them for doing this, but lots of them are um going to, you know, using likes of chat, cetera, for those applications. And then one of the challenges employers are getting is that number one is obvious when it's been used. But also sometimes they will ask these questions like why do you want to work here, or can you talk about your favorite marketing campaign? And they're getting like hundreds of the same responses. So now it's almost like there's been great progress made. But how can they adapt that process so that it's almost like there's been great progress made, but how can they adapt that process so that it's still fair for everyone? So how can they create questions where it's specifically tapping into, like individual experiences? So chat gbt isn't going to be able to um, you know, come up with these random individual experiences that you're not going to have, or even they're providing guidance, they're not.
Speaker 2:Lots of companies aren't saying you can't use it because, realistically, when they start the job, they're going to be using AI tools and they're saying you can use it. But these are the ways you should use it. It should be used as a tool rather than a replacement. So I think that's quite interesting as well. But again, then there are some companies that are not not behind, but they are smaller companies. So, again in the but they are smaller companies.
Speaker 2:So, again in the creative industry, I see lots of marketing agencies and their hiring processes are like shorter in terms of the stages, but they'll do things like give live briefs or live tasks to work on, which can be very, very time consuming, especially some of them. They're so long and it's like when someone's applying for like 50 other jobs. You're basically asking them to complete unpaid work and who knows if you're going to use their idea. So I think there's lots of negative stuff around social media on that and basically you know lots of people saying it's not fair, because you know the people that don't have to be working full-time or part-time whilst they're looking for that full-time job to sustain themselves, you know they can do these tasks because they have the time, whereas people that you know have to pay their bills they don't have the time, so then it's making the process unfair as well. So there's just so many things happening and then again there are some larger Fortune 500 companies who aren't doing any of this and they're still stuck in the traditional way of submitting your CV.
Speaker 2:It gets reviewed. You'll then get invited to some kind of online assessments. If you then pass that, you'll be invited to a video interview, which isn't like this. It's like you're basically talking to no one. It's just there are questions and you have to record yourself answering. Then if you pass that, you'll be invited to an assessment centre where there's like 30 or 40 other young people and it's like a full day thing, and then on like the fifth or sixth round. If you pass the assessment centre, then it's an offer.
Speaker 1:So some of them it can be five or six rounds still for your first job, which is a lot. Yeah, it is a lot to take in. You mentioned at the very start about people being ghosted. What do you think the expectation is from not just young people, just people in general? You go through the process of seeing a job application, you think you've got the right skills for it, you email in a CV, et cetera. What do you think you've got the right skills for it, you email in a cv, etc. What do you think the expectation is of people from, from what they should get back from the company because, because you know, as you said, there's sometimes it could be high numbers here and that's a company.
Speaker 1:The expectation is that everyone will get replied to, I guess but then the reality is the company probably hasn't got the resource to reply to everybody. Where do you stand on that way? What do you think people want to get from a company in that particular part of the process?
Speaker 2:well, I honestly, I think, regardless of age, everyone as humans, we all want some kind of closure, especially when you're investing your time in something. And some of these application processes are long. Some of them can take one to two hours. Or if you think about how long it takes you to tailor your cv and write a specific cover letter to every role, it takes a long time. So I think, of all ages, people expect to hear back.
Speaker 2:I and it's again, it's one I struggle with and we've spoken on the podcast, I think. I think if anyone is investing their time to apply for their company, they should at least get the closure of no right. It doesn't have to be personalized feedback, because that's not going to be possible at like first stage interview, but at least have the decency to just be, to just let them know the application wasn't successful. Because I think it's way worse when you just don't hear back and it's like, well, I have no idea. Or sometimes you apply back, you apply, and then you hear back six months later and it and it's like, well, I completely forgot about that. That's rude. So I think everyone deserves the closure.
Speaker 2:Um and again, some of these rejection emails are awful. So a bit of humanity behind them and making them not sound like chat gbt definitely helps as well, because, again, that impacts impacts your employer brand. But then again, I do just think some companies are lazy and they just know we've got loads of applications, well, you can still just send an automated email to everyone that says the same thing. At least they have that closure. I then think when you get further into the interview process and someone has probably probably invested like maybe one or two days preparing for an interview, then I do think everyone should get feedback and I think it's not good enough to just say we don't have the capacity. I personally don't think it's good enough. But again, that's just my personal opinion.
Speaker 1:Again, that's just my personal opinion. I'd agree with you. The sad part is that that same situation happens day to day in the work environment. Yeah, you mentioned creative agencies.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, we're asked to pitch creative ideas. I've always disagreed with it, to be quite honest. It's like well, pay and play kind of thing. Sometimes you won't hear back at all how that went and you wait. Well, it's been like three days potentially putting concepts together and you don't get a reply. Or you get to a point where you write a proposal and then don't get a reply. I sometimes wonder whether the digital world is somehow allowing people to say it's fine not to respond in that way, whereas I try my best for myself and my team. You won't get it 100% right, but I always try and say every form of communication should be treated like it's a face-to-face conversation, that you couldn't walk away from someone halfway through a conversation, just just out of nowhere, just disappear. I think you should have some closure on things and come to a natural end on the communication where you can um, just decency, yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree. I think the I think like social media has made it so much, so much easier to ghost people. People ghost in all, all aspects of life, whether it's dating, whether it's work emails and you're just so right you can. You can send someone an email or send someone a pitch and like there's no incentive from their side to respond to you because from their side they're never going to see you again, they'll never have to face you then, when it gets awkward, as if you do ever see that person in real life. But it does make it very easy to just go to people, I agree no, it's funny, isn't it?
Speaker 1:because you know you can always use digital tools in another way. You know people could start outing people that are companies that don't respond. They do, yeah, well, yeah, so then then that that brand's in a bit of trouble, isn't it as well? Because you think, well, I want to work in a culture where we're collaborative and communicative and we talk. You know we talk to each other and work out through problems and solutions and so forth. So, um, yeah, it's a strange one, isn't it? So, to wrap up, um, you know we've talked quite a bit about this particular landscape.
Speaker 1:Um, would you have two or three key tips that you might say? If you're a company and you're trying to develop more of an employer facing brand and we use the term employer brand, I still think it's one of the same thing but you need to be talking to that particular audience, which is new team members joining your brand. What two or three tips would you say? That, if you're going to tackle it a bit, just improve yourself. What? What should they go for? What are the things they should start?
Speaker 2:just try and focus on maybe, maybe some kind of quicker wins, possibly yeah, I think the first thing we'll probably do just to kind of conduct some kind of audit to understand where you're currently at. So looking at both internal and external perceptions. So, internally, can you survey current employees and ask them about their experiences, can you conduct focus groups to understand how they actually perceive the company's culture and values? And can you look at your existing kind of turnover and retention rates. And externally, what are people saying about your brand online, whether that's on LinkedIn, whether that's on Glassdoor? Looking at things like social media sentiment, looking at how your competitors are doing.
Speaker 2:So I think a really, really good starting point is just doing an internal audit, because there's no point going with all these ideas if you don't actually know where you're at currently EVP, which is your employer value proposition, which is essentially a statement which like articulates who you are and like the unique benefits of essentially like working at your company. So, having a real good think around things like what do you want to be known for, what makes you different, what are your business values, what do the people that work there have to say, what are their stories? And really thinking about you know who are these key employees that we can use as ambassadors and advocates to really communicate our story and our brand values are important as well, so I think those would be my two top tips of where to start fantastic.
Speaker 1:Well, hopefully, you know people listening in um can take some of that advice and guidance. I think it's an area that has massive opportunity to grow. Lots of companies still need to realise that even just your website will be looked at and viewed and judged within seconds, both from a customer and a potential new employee, and that might be enough for them to say I'm not going to take it any further to a recruiter. And so you get in the water before you even start because you've not represented yourself well, um, that's the digital world that we live in.
Speaker 2:Really, you know you go on, sorry no, or you'll just hire the wrong people because again, like most companies, you know, most organizations don't find it hard to find people. They find it hard to find the right people yeah, no, I'd agree with that completely.
Speaker 1:So, before we finish, we just go back to your, your two truths and a lie. Do you want to share with us what did?
Speaker 2:I say, oh yeah, so the lie. So the two truths were that I've been featured on a billboard in Times Square and that I'm a fosterer for Guide Dogs UK. And the lie was I have a best-selling book. I currently do not, but maybe one day in the future fantastic.
Speaker 1:Well, I knew about the billboard because I'd seen that on social um, guide Dog thing's brilliant, uh, fantastic, um. I'm sure you will have a book with the enthusiasm and passion that you've got for what you're doing and the purpose that's driving it as well, through your own, your own experience. I'm sure there's some interesting content that can come out of that as well, and we'll obviously help you back it a little bit and promote it when you get to that stage. So, yeah, I'd like to thank you very much for your time today. Your insight into exactly what you do and your enthusiasm for it completely shines through as well. I'm sure you'll be successful. I'm sure you'll make other companies successful as well and hopefully you can bridge that gap between younger people and younger talent coming through from education into the workforce, and I think it's very much needed.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's been really great chatting to you.
