The OTPreneur Podcast

From Clinical OT to Online Business: Cheryl Crow's Journey to Empowering Individuals with Rheumatic Diseases

Jayson Davies & Sarah Putt Episode 27

Wondering if it's possible to genuinely impact clients while running an online business?

In this engaging episode of OTpreneur, we bring on Cheryl Crow from Arthritis Life to share her incredible journey of starting and growing an online OT business. From leveraging her unique skills, navigating imposter syndrome, to building scalable programs that reach hundreds of clients worldwide, Cheryl provides actionable insights and inspiration for OTs looking to make a big impact in non-traditional ways. This episode is packed with strategies to help you transform your idea into a thriving business without sacrificing client care.

Listen in and learn how to take your OT practice online and make a lasting difference!

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Are you interested in starting an online business, but wondering how you can still make an impact with your clients and be successful as an OTpreneur? Today, I am bringing on Sheryl Crow from Arthritis Life to discuss her journey into running an online business and how she goes about empowering her clients with rheumatic diseases to thrive in their lives. Are you thinking about starting an occupational therapy business but don't even know where to begin? Whether you're starting something on the side or going full time in your business, the OTpreneur podcast is what you need. This show will help you get in the right mindset and give you actionable tips to go from just an idea to OTpreneur. I'm Sarah Putt, and today I am joined by my amazing friend and one of the most genuine OTpreneurs that I know, Sheryl Crow. How are you today, Sheryl? Great. Thanks so much for having me. This this talk has been a long time in the making. And so I'm glad with, you know, life and everything that's been going on. I'm glad we were finally here and, you know, you are seriously one of my favorite people to talk to. And I have been following your OT Preneur journey for almost probably most of the time that you've been an OT Preneur. And it has just been just fantastic to kind of watch you grow and learn and the things that you have built within your business and everything like that. And so I am, I'm just really excited to dive in and really talk a little bit more about kind of online business and, you know, really still kind of having an impact for your clients. Yay. Thank you. Okay. So let's see let's see how well I can do with this here. So to start, you have rheumatoid arthritis, and you've been living with it for about 20 years ish at this point? A little over 20 years. Yeah. About half my life because I'm 43 and I got diagnosed at 21. Yeah. Okay. And you also run a business using your OT expertise, supporting others living with rheumatoid arthritis, as well as other kinds of rheumatic diseases. So let's see, let's see how well I can actually get through everything. Cause I know that you do a lot within your OTpreneur life. So you have a podcast, you do YouTube, you have an online course, you have online support groups, you do webinars, you have an online one on one consultations. You also do paid and unpaid products as well as sponsored content. Is there anything that I missed? I do paid it on unpaid product reviews or, like, say, hey, this is something that helps me, whether it's something like a jar opener or, you know, a lot of our general, like, OT adaptive equipment. That's something that has been really fun. And, yeah, I also do I help a nonprofit in the arthritis space make content. Like, as an independent contractor, I make content for their, like, short form videos for their page. And a lot of that stuff is not what I set out initially to do. It's all kinda evolved, so that's something we can talk more about too. I had a vision initially, and the core vision of making the programs to support people with arthritis, that is still the core, the heart the heart of the business. But then through promoting those programs and making videos and and stuff like that, I have then had other opportunities bubble up. Also, I used to do more of this, but I have done some paid writing gigs, like, as a, you know, writing an article, like, you know, 8 products that help me in the kitchen with arthritis, that kind of thing. And I think that's a really interesting point to bring up is that, especially for those that are listening that are like right at the beginning or, you know, barely starting their business, If you focus on one thing, these other opportunities will come, right? When you establish yourself as the expert in your area or your niche, all of a sudden people are going to be like, wait, we need to learn more you know, from this person about what it is and how they can, how they can help my community, how they can help my clients and that kind of thing. So you set out to help people, you know, with rheumatoid arthritis and all of a sudden people are like, wait, can you, can you do this? Can you do that? Can you, you know, and it's all kind of within your, within your realm and within your wheelhouse, but then you're, you're slightly doing different things kind of throughout your day, your week, your month as an OTpreneur. Yeah. Absolutely. That's been one of the unexpected things, you know. I I heard that early on in my journey from some of the other OT preneurs like yourself or Melissa Lapointe that were further ahead of than me, you know, further ahead of me. And I was like, that sounds kinda like magical thinking. Maybe they were just lucky. Like, I was skeptical of that, to be honest. We feel people would say that, but now it's definitely come true. So you were right. And the other thing I wanted to point, the other thing that I wanted to point out, because again, I've known you for a while now, is that Cheryl, you were making videos and you were doing video content before it was the cool thing to be doing. You started that way back in the beginning, and I know that you've done other podcasts. Like, we're not gonna go too deep in the weeds here. I know you've done a lot of other, like, kind of chats and podcasts about it, but, like, you you were one of the very first people that were doing amazing video content before reels existed, you know, probably even before like IGTV and all that kind of stuff. Like you were out there putting up really solid video content before most of us could even like turn on the video and do anything on them. Well, it's funny. I, so I grew, I was born 1981. My dad actually majored in visual communications, but he ended up doing a totally different job. But I grew up with my dad following us, me and my sister and brother around with the big VHS cameras. So stick with me here at younger people. Yeah. So I learned video editing from VHS in, like, the early nineties where you would have 2 VHSs. It was giant rectangular shaped things. You would hit record on 1 and you hit play on the other, and this is very manual process. Right? And then I learned digital video editing through a nonprofit I worked for in the early 2000. And it's this kind of thing that I always thought, well, videos is something that I'm I love. Like, I love making making videos and doing photography. Like, that's never gonna be a business. Like, that's you know, again, trying to be I I have a very, like, practical side of me along with, like, the whimsical fun side. And so I was like, no, my career is gonna be occupational therapy. Like this is a specific career. It has a path. And then of course, you know, now I've come full circle to using those video editing skills that I first learned, you know, with my dad as like an 11 year old. You know, now I'm 43 doing that on my phone, and it really does. It is it is, it is amazing. But it helps to have and the people ask, how did you become? I'm I'm just anticipating a question people might ask. How did you become so comfortable on video? I'm like, I cannot tell you a journey towards becoming comfortable on video because I have been that way since I was literally born. Like, my mom said, like, I was just like just like, look at me kind of person. Oh, it helps to have a I I joke kind of helps to have no shame. But, I mean I do definitely once you have comments coming in, you'll get trolls if you're out there. Trolls are like people who make negative comments, and certainly there are days like anyone else where I'm like like my nose looks big or like whatever. Like I have wrinkles on my eyes now or whatever, but it's, like, helped me a lot to just remember, like, what is the purpose of my content? Like, it's a very purpose driven, passion driven, you know, business. And the good of my content is gonna outweigh any negative, stuff that I that I get. So I do see a lot of other OT prenurs or just OTs that are wanting to help people get kinda stuck in the content creation because they're like, I'm so afraid of, like, people saying that I'm look uglier than it's that I'm stupid or, you know, the negative and you. And, what's been amazing. And Melissa really I'll tell you more about Melissa, but she really encourages you. She's my business coach. She was like, believe me, when you start putting it out there more, like, more of my specific, like, helpful, quote, unquote content, You're gonna see the positive comments come in and that's gonna drive you further to keep doing it. And that's really been the case. Like, so many entry level occupational therapy students, like, people who've only been in school for a year, you have so much more knowledge than the average person in so many niches already. Like that's what's been surprising to me is I'll make content about something that to me is so basic as an occupational therapist. Like, hey, think about the way you hold your coffee cup. Like, if you have a lot of pain in your knuckles, if you hold the mug by the little handle versus you can hold it with 2 hands and distribute the force across 2 hands. Like, this is, like, the most basic, like, joint protection principle that seems so obvious to us as OTs. I I'll get so many comments like, oh my gosh. I never thought of that. I just tried that and it's like so much less painful. So that's been really fun for me too. Anyway, I'm already on a tangent. But yeah. Yeah. It's a good video being pumped up on video. Yeah. That's and, like, complete side note, but again, this is something I think that we should that I that I wanna highlight with what you just said is that it's not necessarily everything that you have accomplished, and I'm saying you generally, even to people listening, it's not everything that you've accomplished since being an OT or OTA school and then becoming a practitioner. Think about what skills and what things you learned growing up. Right? Cheryl, you're a perfect example of like, yeah, I was doing video editing way back when, you know, in the womb, basically. And you took that, built on it, learned, and now you're incorporating it into your business. And so I think some people get kind of get stuck of like, well, I don't have a lot of experience as an OT practitioner or I'm still a student. What do I know? But think about anything that you've done in your past that can actually like relate and help you develop and grow a business too. So always think about the whole journey, not necessarily just when you started OT school or when you became a practitioner or anything like that. Think about your entire journey and really what you bring to the table. But that's a whole nother side note. I love that. That's so true. Yeah, that's perfect. All right, Cheryl. So I want to know, and I'm sure you've had so many different experiences, but I wanna know what is kind of one of the most impactful things that has happened to you as an OT preneur. Maybe this is something that you, you experienced kind of personally on your journey, or maybe it's something that happened with a client or a client shared with you or something that. But one thing that really stands out to you. Oh, yeah. I think when I so I I created a what in OT lingo is called like a comprehensive self management program, which is basically teaching people. I like to say it's like an orientation manual for having your chronic illness. Again, this case, rheumatoid arthritis or similar in they're called inflammatory and autoimmune musculus rheumatic musculoskeletal diseases. It's a lot of syllables, but things like psoriatic arthritis, ankylosing spondylitis, rheumatoid arthritis. Things that are often lumped in the OT world is just like, we just need to teach them joint production. I mean, that's like I mentioned earlier. That's the low hanging fruit. But these are things that are systemic conditions more similar to lupus or MS than osteoarthritis, and that they affect your energy, fatigue, they affect your cognition through brain fog, they affect your lungs, your eyes, your heart. You know, that's a system wide condition. So, anyway, affect your mental health, your ability to work, all those things. And so I was I noticed this giant gap in patients were getting no support. They were getting a one appointment with a rheumatologist, which is the specialist that diagnoses these. You get a 20 minute appointment every 3 months, literally, and that's it. And the majority of that appointment is talking about medication management, but which is critical, but you need there's there's so much more patients need. And so, so I'm leading to the I'm pivotal for the important thing. When I made my program, I, which walks people through again, like an orientation guide, how to manage pain, how to manage fatigue, how to manage the social effects, mental health, how to manage executive functions. Because there's a lot of these medications are expensive. There's a lot of admin that you have to do. My medications cost upwards of $60,000 a year without insurance. So within there's a lot of different hoops you have to get through to get your medications. All those things, again, no one was no one was teaching these people this stuff. And, anyway, I I was, at the time, working as a pediatric OT, which was my goal. I in the school based and outpatient clinics, and I loved that, but also I kept saying it's frustrating to me that, it feels like there's so many there's an almost like an oversaturation of services for pediatrics. I'm sorry to say that if it's not true in your area, but in the Seattle area, we have, like, some of the highest rates of autism in the country, and so there's a lot of people serving these kids, and that's amazing. I loved doing that. But I was like, I'm OT number, like, 30 in my suburb helping these kids, and there's 0 helping the people with arthritis. Like, it just started to bug me, and I kept ranting about it. And I was like, wait. Someone should do this. Someone should do this. And then it was like Who's gonna do this? I am the 1. That was that that was actually, that is really the pivotal moment. But the one I was thinking was was that I made this program that I really thought was gonna be the most helpful. It's called Room to Thrive. I used to call it the Rheumatoid to Thrive. Road map. The self paced course with an optional support group. My vision and my anticipation was that it was gonna be the most helpful for people who are newly diagnosed. Right? Because this is, like, the earlier you get this information, the better. But when I did my beta groups, the first groups, and then I did the first pay groups, I started when I looked at the pre and post program, like, data and testimonials, which were really a simple questionnaire of, like, how confident do you feel on this and that, like, managing your pain, managing your fatigue, managing, you know, all the ways that this illness affects your life. The and I looked at the testimonials, just the subjective testimonials. They were strongest when people who had had the condition for over 10 years. And then I realized I was like, why is that? Like, why? Because I'm like, haven't they kind of muddled through and learned on their own a little bit? Like, piecemeal that together through their art. It's not like there's there's no educational resources. I mean, there are blogs, and there's things here or there with foundations and organizations, but there's no, like, systematic step by step program until mine. But I realized, oh, it's because they've suffered. The people who are newly diagnosed don't know what they're missing. Like, they get this information and empowerment and they're really happy about it. But the people who've had it for 10 years or longer were like, wait. I this is so helpful. I wish I had known this earlier. Anyway, that that was kind of the it it changed my mind around whether I wanted to my niche to be just newly diagnosed. And I was like, no. I actually don't want it to be only newly die diagnosed. Even though the general business recommendation is to niche down, I was like, I don't wanna make this only for newly diagnosed people. I wanna make sure it's accessible to people who are available, the people who've had it longer. Like I said, those were 2 for 1, 2 different options. 2 for 1. I love it. And and honestly, like, I'm gonna get personal here because as you were talking, I'm, like, I I get this. Now I was diagnosed, and I really haven't talked about this much, but I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder a year and a half ago. So I was diagnosed with celiac disease, and I remember walking in now, not not the same, but similar in understanding like that it it it affects, you know, systemic and it affects a lot of different things. It's not just going gluten free and all that kind of stuff. But this is not about me, but I want to just tie this into what you're talking about. It's relatable. It's relatable. I remember walking into my first appointment with the GI doctor and this was before I had actually been diagnosed, but like, I already knew it was coming. Like my labs were off the charts. Like I knew I was going to get the diagnosis. And I remember walking in and the doctor looked at me and she goes, are you okay? And I remember being like, yeah, I'm fine. Like I, you know, in my head, I'm like, I'm just going to have to avoid gluten and life is going to be fine. Like if everything's going to be fine. And now, you know, a year and a half later, if I walked in and my doctor said that I probably would just start bawling because I realize all of the impacts that this diagnosis has had on my life, the challenges that I faced, everything that I've gone through. And so it's really interesting as you were talking that, you know, originally you were thinking, I want to go for newly diagnosed, but oftentimes, and myself included, we don't really know what that all means when you're freshly diagnosed. You think that you can navigate it yourself. You think that it's not going to be that hard or you don't perceive some of these challenges that might happen. So I totally understand that, you know, somebody that has been living with it and dealing with it and maybe, you know, not, not really kind of understanding like what the resources that they're missing. They just know that they're not living their best life. What that actually can, you know, can do for a person. So, yeah, that's interesting. And also, Cheryl, you and I talked back on the OT, on my podcast OT for life back in 2020, I think it was. And I think back at that point, you were still kind of gearing it towards more of the newly diagnosed. So it's interesting to see that shift 4 ish years later that now you're like, no, maybe not. Maybe I am gonna pivot a little bit and focus more on people that have been living with this diagnosis for longer than I was originally thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Well and and your experience completely relates. And I do think, you know, there is a a form of optimism that kind of accompanies, like, denial in the early stages of a life altering diagnosis, right, where you're like, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. I'm fine. Everything's gonna be fine. Like, an hour after the you. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's another thing. Yeah. And one of the things I end up, that has changed actually, I'm negative, like, 900 things that have, like, changed my life that you mentioned earlier. But one is, there there is learning about a therapy approach that I think is tragically, like, extremely relevant to occupational therapy yet not included at least in 2010 to 2012. It wasn't included in any of my programs, but it's called acceptance and commitment therapy. I like to say it's like if cognitive behavior therapy and mindfulness practice had a baby because it's the acceptance part is taking what's offered in the moment, like, connecting with your reality as it is, whether that means pain, whether that means anxiety. You know, it's not about altering it. It's about connecting to it initially. And then the commitment part, this is really more like occupation based. It's saying, what can you commit to? You know, what kind of life do you want to have with whatever crap is going on in your life? Right? So with rheumatoid arthritis, with anxiety, which I also live with, you know, what how can I pivot my attention towards what's meaningful and important to me? And that's kind of the behavior part. But, it's really been the most helpful kind of outlook therapeutic outlook for me personally, and I integrated Acceptance Commitment Therapy Principles into all of my course, but there's this paradox, right, that I wish I had learned it earlier, but the time at which acceptance is least palatable to you as a concept is right after diagnosis. Right? Because you're like, why just okay. Like I cut or you think you accept it because you're like, I'm just gonna solve it. I'm just gonna I just I'm gonna make a strategy and I'm just gonna do this strategy and it's gonna work. Like in your case, you were like, I'm just gonna avoid gluten and like that's what I have to do. And like, you know, I think that's a very OG like practical and you you got 2 kids. I mean, you've got a lot going on. You're like, okay, I was just like add this to the list, you know, and I and then you don't real like, anyway, so that's been one of my, struggles is when I I want to help people. Right? And I want and I know that this is gonna be helpful to the majority of people whether they have arthritis or something else or whatever is challenging your life. Acceptance and commitment therapy is actually more evidence based than traditional cognitive behavior therapy for, chronic pain and anxiety as well, but they're you have to meet people where they're at, like you said. And so, you know, I have to accept from a business standpoint at some point, maybe I could tie it into just saying accepting that some people aren't really ready to hear the message yet. Like, there are people who like, and I say really explicitly when I promote my program, like, this is not a program to heal or cure or make your disease go away or to make all your symptoms go away. This is to I focus on evidence based ways to reduce and prevent pain and fatigue, but this is they are going to be there. Like, this program is, like, predicated on the fact that these symptoms do flare up. It's a condition that is characterized by periods of flare ups and remissions, and that is, like, that is the reality that I'm orienting you towards versus our programs are like, do my diet program and then you're gonna like heal everything in your body. That is totally not my focus, but some people are like, I've gotta try the and I get people some again, some of my stronger testimonials are the people who they tried the healing, curing, fixing route or like the remedial route, if you will, with occupational therapy lingo versus the compensatory adaptive. And it when it doesn't work, they're ready for acceptance. So it's Yeah. That's that's a whole other thing. Yeah. So I wanna go back to Yeah. I know you were kinda talking about, you know, working in outpatient pediatrics and working in the schools, you know, you're working clinically 1 on 1 with clients, maybe occasionally some small groups, if you're setting even had that. And you get this idea. Well, you don't even get this idea. You're just like noticing this gap that there are no resources. There are very limited resources and supports for people with rheumatoid arthritis and backing up before that, before you kind of had that, epiphany, did you ever think that you would start a business? Was that something you, you know, when you were video editing when you were younger? Is that something that you were thinking about or Well, yeah. Like, how did that come about? It's kind of funny. I mean, I think I did have an entrepreneurial streak, like my best friend and I in 4th grade, we used to we learned how to make earrings. These are actually coincidental earrings I'm wearing right now are from a different place. But, we learned how to make, like, beaded earrings, and we used to, like, go door to door. I think this is maybe more common again in the eighties and early nineties. Going door to door in your neighborhood like selling random stuff like earrings and my other friend and I would like make little flower bouquets and go door to door. You know, that kind of thing like I in the back of my mind actually, I remember when I first kind of saw the social media rising, you know, in the late 2000 early 2010s. I actually had this thought numerous times like, oh man, like I wish this was around when I was younger because I would have like I'm too old now to be an influencer. Like that is actually something I thought, you know, like so it's one of those, like, I guess people say limiting beliefs you have to get over or whatever. But, I was like, man, like, I would have been so good at having, like, a blog and having a video channel. I had all these thoughts and the I also and, you know, I had my baby in 2014, Charlie, and, I had a bunch of health issues after that. So, anyway, long story short, did I ever think about doing some of this? It definitely crossed my mind in the back of my mind. But, like, for ex but it wasn't something that I, thought about seriously until in 2019. So I was working in the schools, I was working in the clinic part both part time while my son was in preschool, and then I actually made the decision in 20 the 2019 to 2020 school year. I had been I got in a car accident in 26. I had point I had a flare up of SIBO or SIBO, like small intestine bacteria overgrowth. I had a whole bunch of I also had a pineal cyst with delayed wound healing from that surgery to remove that. And this was all between, like, 2016, 2018. And I just had felt like I just been hit over, you know, over and over and over with just, like, medical stuff. I can remember 1 year I was like, I sent like 30 different I send Christmas cards to like all my providers every year and it was like over 30 providers like in 2018. Like that it was and I'm still sitting here like pushing myself to work and I'm like, what am I doing? I need to take a break. So I I when my son started kindergarten, I decided let me take a 1 year break. The 2019 to 2020. We know what's going to happen in 2020. It's a little weird. I'm just taking a 1 year leave of absence from the schools. I need to recover from all this I stuff I've been through. And it was very much like, let me I'm gonna start my own little I I said I I I'm tired of hearing myself say people need to help people with arthritis. I am people I'm gonna help people with arthritis. I'm gonna start a YouTube channel, and I actually thought I was I thought about naming the business the arthritis talk show. That was one of my title one of my titles. That's actually, like, my dream jobs, It's like talk show host. And, obviously, like, having a podcast is kinda like that. Right? But long story short, so this was gonna be like I'm thinking to myself, I'm gonna do this talk show YouTube channel alongside when I starting the 2020, 2021 school year, I'll go back to school based. You know, I'll have my groove with my son, like, figuring out, you know, the drop offs, pickups, all that stuff. And so, obviously, then 2020 so I was just like I can look back actually looked back last night because I was like, what exactly year? I knew I incorporated the business in 2019, but I ended up calling it arthritis life with life being like an acronym for, like, life hacks, interviews, fun, and education. I'm really glad I put fun in there. I actually struggle with the f, but now I'm like, that's like a core core value. But, anyway, so then I then obviously, the pandemic happened, and then because I'm I am a I have to take immunosuppressant or immunomodulating medications for my for my arthritis, and that made me really nervous to go back into an in person setting and just having additional demands in the home, having my son be in virtual school as a 6 year old. You know, I was like, okay. Well, I'm not going back to the schools now. So, it it evolved I don't know. It's interesting to think in the alternate universe, like, would I I know I would have continued doing arthritis stuff on the side, but I probably would have still gone back to the schools if the pandemic hadn't happened and kind of done it both of these things part time. But the pandemic kind of it opened me up to having more time to do things like taking, like, entrepreneur OT entrepreneur courses and, like, meeting people like you, like Melissa Lapointe, my business coach, and other OTPreneurs, that really gave me momentum to be like, wait. I could actually do this, you know. And then just yeah. Anyway yeah. It evolved, long story short. Yeah. And I love talking with you because there's always little bits and pieces that I'm like, wait, I didn't, maybe, maybe I didn't know it, but I didn't actually make the connection. Cause like we connected in 2020, maybe 2019. So that was like right at that pivotal point of you starting your business. But one thing that I really want to dive into and talk about is making this transition, making this shift where you are working clinically, you know, direct client care, working with clients, you're potentially seeing progress every day or week or month or even every year. Right. Depending on the complexity of the case load that you're working with to then all of a sudden you're still working with clients, but you're working in a different capacity. You're working online. You might not, maybe you have ever met some of the people that you would consider your clients or your target audience. And how do you go about still feeling like you are making an impact with your clients even though you're not, you know, face to face, you're not working directly with them, you're not providing that quote unquote direct OT treatment. Right? How do you feel like you're still making an impact with your clients? Yeah. This is something that, you know, I I struggle with a little bit initially, and and there's a whole identity crisis almost that I had where I was like, okay, if if I want to serve a lot of people. That was one of the hooks that got me really excited when I was going to this, OT printer conference, this online conference in May 2020, and then starting working working with a business coach. One of the things, the promises that got me really excited about starting a group based programs or, like, scale what was the scalability? The fact that instead of, like, serving 1 kid an hour in the outpatient clinic or in the schools now the schools I was also doing consultative, so I will say there's, you know, a little wiggle room there. But, okay, you can help effect, like, have an impact on, like, the larger school system or the school community. But, I the to put it simply, it's be like, oh, instead of 1 to 1, like, I could serve 40 clients a week, 1 to 1. If I started an arthritis life in a brick and mortar clinic in Seattle where I live, I could, through making videos that are just general education videos where I'm giving people tips and tools to, like, empower them. And through my specific paid programs, I could then scale that to affect 100, thousands, you know, 1,000,000, I think, of people potentially. And that is what when that clicked in my head, it was like, okay. This is this is awesome. Like, this this is what I want to do. I still do miss I definitely miss the intensity of 1 on 1 at times, and I miss the school environment. You know, when I go to my son's school, I helped with the yearbook last year and stuff like that. You know, there is something really I think there's it it really I do believe working in the schools, whether it's a teacher or OTs, is truly like a calling, you know, and and sometimes it's it is I'm the kind of person I have to live with the fact that, like, I have a 100 different lives that I think I'd be really happy living. You know, I would love to keep working in the schools. I think it's an amazing environment and I but I also have to, like, for my own mental health, like, re pivot my brain to be like, bloom where you're planted. That's one of my mantras. Like, I'm planting myself here. Bloom where you decided to plant yourself. Don't plant yourself in this business and then like And then try to like grass is greener syndrome where you're like, well, I should have done that or you know? So anyway but back to your question. Yeah. So I think it was the idea of the real core of what got me really excited about building a business bigger and serving what was serving and leaning into this versus traditional OT practice was the ability to serve a large scale amount of people that has been really exciting. And I think that's something that a lot of, and myself included, as I was kind of starting my OTpreneur journey, a lot of people can get hung up on that point of knowing that they can make a difference in the work that they're currently doing. Right. And the, the clients that they're currently serving to then taking a step back, not even a step back, but you're removing yourself from that role and planting yourself in other roles. I don't even want to call it one role because when you become a business owner, you have so many different roles that you have, you know, having to fulfill. Yeah. So many hats. And I remember that same exact thing. Like, you know, I was working with, call it 8 clients, 5 days a week, and all of a sudden I was like, wait, but if I start, like, if I stop seeing clients, like, how am I still going to be able to make an impact? And I remember like kind of reshifting it in my brain of like, if I can bring on employees to work, you know, alongside me in my business, and now I'm helping support them and mentor them, all of a sudden they're seeing 8, you know, this one employee is seeing 8 and this one employee is seeing 6 and this one is seeing 5 and all of a sudden now we're seeing way more than just me personally could have been doing. So, it, you know, and then again, when you bring in the online option of that, your target audience becomes, or the target, the target audience pool becomes so much bigger because you're not just reliant on, you know, the, the in person geographical closeness of seeing people. And so I'm I'm really glad that you, you know, kind of brought that up because I do think that's something that people get hung up on, that they have to be doing that quote unquote traditional direct client care to be able to be to to be able to have an impact, and that's not the case. Yeah. And I think I think where I got hung up, and I know a lot of OTs, have have brought this up in different, like, OTpreneur OT entrepreneur groups I've been part of and stuff on Facebook or wherever is, like, how do you address, like, the legality of, like, I'm helping client, I'm helping people, and I'm using my OT skills, but it's not occupational therapy. And that I spent a long time. I talked to 3 different lawyers. So this is something that you need to kind of needs to be defined in relation to, again, the state. I'm still licensed in Washington state. I'm not practicing clinically, but I keep up to date with all my continuing ed and my license. And the way that actually one of the lawyers really helped me think of it, he goes, you know, when you let's say you read a book from a psychologist. So my favorite book on acceptance commitment therapy is called The Happiness Trap, How to Stop Struggling and Start Living by doctor Russ Harris. He's a psychologist. I learned a lot of things in that book that I also that my therapist in real life, my one on one therapist that I see for an hour at a time, she reinforced a lot of those messages. But I also learned a lot of them in the book. But I wasn't confused when I'm reading the book that I'm getting therapy from doctor Russ Harris. Right? He's the author of the book. He is providing patient education to me, but it's not a therapeutic relationship. Now so when my my self paced course, that was like my self paced course is clearly there's no there's no problem there. Right? I'm just saying I am have having a disclaimer that, like, I'm an occupational therapist, like, that is providing you education based on my training, but this is not you taking this course does not consist of occupational therapy services. It's a asynchronously. This is not services. Right? So that's a little more clear. Now when I'm doing a live group, a live zoom support group, this is where I have had to draw the line where there's there's no the one lawyer said that you're gonna talk to 5 lawyers and they're all gonna say like a little different things. Like it just depends on your own comfort level. Same thing with OTs that provide, like, 1 on 1 OT and then 1 on 1, like, clinical wellness or life coaching or there's a lot of I don't know if you've talked about this before on the podcast, but there's a lot of it's it's hard. There's a lot of different opinions and I I don't like the gray areas. I want it to be black and white. But I decide so initially, I had a lot of stress and anxiety around, like, am I gonna be am I, you know, I I I want a rule follower. I wanna follow, you know, the rules, but it turns out, like, the big ethical issue typically is, like, somebody who says they're providing OT and they're not. Right? So you are billing for services that you're not doing. When you're saying I'm explicitly not providing OT, and then you're doing something that that is maybe in what I'm doing is I say I'm facilitating peer support in these groups. The facilitating peer support is something that any lay person can do. Like support groups are not a protected, like, term. Right? Support groups is I'm not saying it's a therapy group. It's not an occupational therapy group. It is a peer support group. So I have I and I I do actually leave time in the support group meetings for people to ask. I do q and a session at the beginning on the topic of the week, which is based on the course, the self paced course. So they all take the self paced self paced course, and I might answer the q and a's. But again, very clear to say, like, you know, I'm answering, like, your general question. Like, what does this inflammation marker mean in in blood work in general? Like, what is the ANA blood marker? I may answer that, but I'm not saying, like, what should you do in this case? Like, I'm not your OT. Right? So that's where I've been able to draw the line. I think that that's that's kind of one of the downs or the downsides and one of the challenges of being doing a non traditional business where you're directly you're serving clients. It's like I feel like I'm looking at the new OTPF. It's like I'm in I feel like I'm a Schrodinger's box of like I'm I'm providing in some ways, like, my my videos and stuff are population level OT. Right? I'm serving a population. I'm giving OT inform education, but where I'm doing OT in in a way, what I'm doing in the in the groups, it's like simultaneously like some people say, that sounds really OT. It is, but it's also not the delivery of services, right? Because I'm not making an individual if you do OT in a and provide these services through group, you need to have an individualized evaluation for each client. You need to be licensed in the state or country where each client lives, and then you designate you determine that a group services are the appropriate way to deliver stuff. So it is a different process, and I'm not doing that. And I'm I'm not saying I'm doing that. I'm saying I'm not doing it. But it's you know what I'm saying? Like it's like, if you can get really in your head about it like and and again, to me it's like the the greater the greater purpose of helping people and the the fact that I know that this has been so helpful to so many people with arthritis and they're literally getting no other support in the majority of the time. This has made me be like, I'm I'm willing to to deal with this, like, annoying gray area in my head and anxiety because it's worth it to do these programs. But, sorry, long long. That's my identity crisis there. Also, you're willing to put in the effort that you said you talked to multiple lawyers. Right? And that Yeah. That that's an important piece. Right? Wherever you are in your state or country, go talk to somebody in your area and get your own legal advice about this topic. Right? Because you said you got kind of differing opinions depending on who you talk to. And when it comes down to this like legal stuff, I'm not, I'm not a lawyer. Sheryl's not a lawyer. We're not experts in this. We can only share our own journey about it. So you need to make sure that you are talking to somebody and getting good information from that person to help you guide to your, in your business. So do your due diligence when it comes to anything where there's a little gray area or making sure that you're setting up your business correctly, you know, in your area or anything like that. Cheryl, I want to ask you, if somebody else is listening right now and they are like, wow, you know, I was thinking maybe I was going to open up a private practice or some sort of facility, but, Cheryl's really got me thinking about maybe I could actually do this on an online level, right? And a more of an online approach. Do you have any tips or tricks or something that you wish you would have known in the beginning for somebody that, might be looking into starting more of an online business and not kind of that traditional private practice? Yeah. And this is this is really simple. So is, like, getting a business coach for me was the most helpful thing because I had so many ideas of what I wanted to do. Yeah. I still have to do all my time. Yeah. I know. I'm thinking as I'm saying this, I need to go back to her. Melissa Lapointe was my business coach, and it was also she had a group along with it. That was it's great to have, like, the hive mind of other people, like support from others that are going that are doing the same thing as you, in terms of starting their own business via having somebody who's been there before, who can you can bounce your ideas off of it. What I remember, you know, I worked with her 1 on 1 and in the group that she facilitated, and I had this gigantic list. I still have it of all the things I want to do. Like, one of them is, like, I wanna write a book. Again, it's kind of a calling. Right? Like, it's like, I want I've always wanted to write a book, and that was that's on my list. All these things that she she helped me kind of sift through that and identify, like, what are the what are the things that are gonna be most likely to, a, give you, a income source. Like people are for whatever reason more willing to pay more for a course versus a book even if the same information is in the book. Doesn't really make sense when we when we think about it. Right? But, it is humans, you know, we're not rational all the time. So she helped me kind of start get started, like identify the small steps and the steps that I didn't even think initially. This is in 2020, she was like, you need well, you need to have an email list. I was like, I don't need to email us. No one likes email. Like, I was literally like, she literally inbox spammed. Yeah. But and to explain to me, you're you know, well, if you build your business, not just online, but on social media, you're playing in someone else's playground, and they can Facebook or Meta or Instagram or TikTok can take away your account at any time, and then where how do you connect with your followers? And I was like, oh my gosh. You're right. So, you know, I like, little things like that. That was just I honestly don't know what I all the mistakes I probably would have made if I didn't have, like, a business coach. So that that's the biggest thing for me. And thank you for saying that because I think a lot of us are like, well, you know, if I'm starting a business, I should be able to learn this myself. I should be able to do it myself. Like if I'm a business owner, do I need somebody to help me in business? Right? Like, you kinda get this like this complex about it. And it's really interesting because in one of our, previous episodes, I was talking to Gretchen Kingma, and she said the exact same thing. She's, like, even as a business owner, I still need a business coach to help me filter through the mess that we deal with in our brains as business owners and help us really figure out what is the most important thing to focus on today, you know, or this year, and, kind of put some of the other things that maybe we really want to do, like write a book. Trust me, I know that's that's been floating in my head too. Yeah. But kind of, like, filter that out and say, focus on this, you know, focus on what what you need for your life, whether that is that income, whether it is that time flexibility, whether it is, you know, whatever reason it is, and really just kinda figure out what is the most important thing to focus on because otherwise, we go deep in the weeds of shiny object syndrome and all these things that we just want to do, or all these gaps that we're seeing, or all these things that pop up on our journey, and we just can't do it all. We don't have enough time. No. No. Exactly. Yeah. And and a similar concept in the group, the coaching group was I see the same thing as I see in my peer support groups that I run is that everyone thinks that they're doing it wrong and that some everyone else has, like, the magic answer. And it's just so nice to be in a group setting to be like, wait. We're all struggling with this. Right? Even somebody that looks really like, people, like, say, you know, oh, you look like, it looks like everything's so easy for you, and it's like things you know, you're just having so much fun. And fun is, again, part of, you know, having a a full vibrant life with arthritis. For me, part of that is is embracing, you know, playfulness and fun and and but also, like, it running the business is hard. You know? And and I struggle just like everyone else. Having that someone to normalize that, whether that's a 1 on 1 coach or, like, a group coaching program was was really helpful. Yeah. And I will say I did a couple other ones. Melissa's at OT, and I think for me, it was I know people have different opinions on whether you should go over, like, an an OT business coach or, like, some outside person. Sometimes it's nice to have the outside Mhmm. Point of view, but there can be some I I went down a few rabbit holes that are a little bit, like, in retrospect, like, I'm not sure that person I consider, like, super ethical and, like, how they were talking about marketing or, you know, things like they'll say things that you really we really can't say as an OT. Like, you have to make a strong claim in your marketing. Like, this is guaranteed to work. And we're like, we can't say it. You know what I mean? Like, even though I'm not part of my OT service, I'm not ethically comfortable saying, like, guaranteed x y z. So it's an I think it was nice having somebody who really understands OT and then also understands business. Yeah. And I think just to kind of elaborate more on that point, even not even outside of having a business coach, but just surrounding yourself with like minded individuals. Cause I know you're a part of an OT mastermind group of other business owners and having people that you can talk to and connect with and, you know, vent to and kind of go through the journey of being an OTpreneur. I know for me, it's been just so important because again, we I think it's very easy for us to be kind of siloed on our island and thinking that we're the only ones just going through the motions and digging through the weeds and just trying to find the light on the other side. And Yeah. We're all going through that. Right? Like or have gone through it at some point. And so being able to connect with other people that are also on a similar journey that understand it, that can be like, hey, have you tried this? Or, hey, have you thought about this? Or I have no advice for you, but I get it. Right? Like, I totally understand where you're coming from. And I think that part is so important as an OTpreneur. A 100%. And my question for you my next question for you is this I'm laughing because I'm like, oh my gosh. I know I know you're gonna go off on this one because I know you can talk about it. What does being an OT preneur mean to you? Yeah. It's to me, it means, you know, creatively using the skills and the passion I have to help to help people. You know, it's just really that's that's what it's all about. And it does also mean in in, you know, my particular context, it means having a little bit more time freedom than I would if I was in a traditional setting. That was something that was the executive functioning part of dealing with, you know, my own medical appointments and my my having a child and taking him. I only have one child. I can't even don't even know how people do it with more than one. You know, taking them here and there and, you know, just it's so much there's so much that is difficult in in your daily life if you're tied down to that hourly schedule. Now I do have times I am tied down. Right? I have specific times that I facilitate my support group. It's not like I'm like, I just do whatever I want all that, you know, but being able to have an impact well and and and actually actually without having that be tied to my time directly is is really helpful, particularly from the chronic illness standpoint. Right? Because I don't know when I'm gonna have a flare up. I don't know. Like, one of the reasons I had to reschedule week is I had a really bad sinus infection, and I was like, I can't barely talk right now. Like, I you're not gonna be able to understand me. You know? And, you know, I don't know when those things come up. I have like, there's times that I need to, like, take a nap, but I wouldn't be able to do that if I was, like, a school based OT like I used to be, you know? So that that is is one of the the things I I really like. I'm still, you know, I am still like, just full disclosure, like, I'm still figuring out the financial side of things to make, like, as much you know, I'm not making I'm not paying myself as nearly anything close to what I was making as a school based OT. They get paid really well in this suburb where I live. But, you know, it's not like a full time income yet, but I'm able to because of my husband's job, I'm able to not have to have that complete pressure to, like, make a whole bunch of money now. But I think that that is something that a lot of other OT partners maybe struggle with if they have to like, let's say, I'm gonna start my own business. I'm gonna completely recreate my income I had from my other traditional OT setting. But I I think a good piece of advice I've heard a lot of people say regarding that is just to, you know, start it as a side gig if you can't, you know, and then and then if it becomes successful, then you can scale back on your traditional job. So yeah. And I think that it really just boils down to what is it that you, you, the listener right now, what is it that you need in your life? Right? Do you need that 100 of 1,000 of dollars in income? Or do you need a little bit more time so you can focus on your own health, right? Or that you can focus on your kids, or maybe you have aging parents, or maybe you have other responsibilities that you want to be able to dedicate your time to, but because you are strapped to a job that you have to be there from, you know, 9 to 5 every day or whatever, that you don't have that freedom. And I really am so glad that you brought that up because I do think that's something, you know, within our culture that it's really kind of pushed up like that hustle culture and you gotta go and you gotta make as much as you can and you can never stop working and you know, you just go, go, go, go, go. Right? And like, I feel like I'm getting anxious just like thinking about that. And it doesn't as as an OTpreneur and as a business owner, it doesn't have to be like that. Right? You don't have to be killing yourself to run a business. You can set up your business however you want it to. You can work as much or as little. You can make as much or as little as you need. Right? And, and what will kind of fulfill you as a business and, and, and as a person. And it doesn't have to be all, you know, that that that hustle culture. It really can just be like, hey, I'm making enough to sustain my lifestyle, to support my family, to support myself, to do the things that I wanna do, and I'm happy. Right? And that and it it really is kind of that that personal touch. Yeah. You said it perfectly. Okay. Is there anything else that you wanted to say before I kind of wrap up? I think that if you have a little voice in the back of your head that's saying like, why isn't someone doing this? Like, why isn't someone helping this? Like, I've seen people do this with you know, it's not just about arthritis and autoimmune chronic illnesses. There's people that I'll say, like, why aren't more people supporting moms postpartum? Mhmm. You know, why aren't people why aren't people supporting x y z? Like, I think it's really I think as the OT lens that we develop through, oh, an occupational therapy school programs is so so valuable for so many different settings that, you know, listen to that little voice and consider that you know, consider what it would look like to for you to actually have a positive impact in that area because, yeah, it's been very, very fulfilling for me. And I have to remind myself that I will say one of the things that I have to remind myself of the impact I've had. It's it's weird. There is something that when you do everything online, you can you can quantify things by, like, I have x number of people in the groups or, like, if I'm educating people and I'm getting a lot of comments on, like, let's say, a TikTok video or something, It was this many likes or this many, but it's it's still kind of ephemeral. I think maybe it's just my generation, like, growing up in the eighties nineties without comp you know, that many computers and technology. It's like it is that is actually a struggle of mine to feel like this impact I feel when I'm face to face with a client is so, like, it's visceral. Right? I feel it when I'm not live in the support group meetings, but some of the other work, it's harder to feel. If someone takes my self paced course and they, like, say that they learned a lot, it's still hard for me to, like, completely take that in. Look. I've done things like these post it notes. I put, like, a on the person's initial for everyone that takes the group. I've I literally have them in my room because I was like, what am I doing? I'm not, like, doing enough. And I'm like, wait. This is what you've done. Like anyway, but point being, the last thing, yeah, I would say it was just to to listen to the voice of yours that's it that's saying somebody should do this, and remember that you are somebody. And that you can do it. I I love that, because I think it's very easy for us, just as people, just as humans, to be like, somebody else needs to do this. Like, who am I? Yeah. Who am I? How can I start a business? How can I, you know, who's gonna pay me money? Right? All of these kind of, like, imposter syndrome, limiting belief, and I know, you know, we've talked about this on previous podcast episodes and yeah, I, I, I love, I love that kind of like last words from you of like, if, if you hear that little voice, don't, don't let it die. Right. Do something with it, regardless of how big or small you can turn that into. But if you see a gap and you know, you know, that OT, OT practitioners, OT students can fill that void. Right. Can, can help that gap. Do it. Yeah. The other the last things that really reminded me of something that I had to repeat to myself a lot when I first started the program, the so I started offering it as an actual offer to the universe, is you don't have to know everything. You just have to be one step ahead of the person that you're helping. I said that to myself so many times because I was like, well, I don't know it. I had an imposter syndrome because I never worked in an actually arthritis setting. Like, I never worked in an arthritis clinic or a hand clinic or ortho. Everything I've done was developmental disabilities. So it's like, who am I? But like, at the same time, it's like, well, I learned a lot in OT school that these people did not learn. You know, the people with arthritis did not learn this stuff. So I'm I am one giant leap ahead of them. I don't have to be somebody who's also like, I I would fail the CHT certified hand therapist test, like, miserably right now. I don't know every muscle in the hand and every tendon and everything, but I know a heck of a lot more than the average person who has rheumatoid arthritis. Right? And I know the comprehensive, like, holistic way that this is affecting their life. So just remember don't I think there's a little bit of a thing that happens in OT school sometimes where you have to be, like there's this kind of perfectionism thing, or you have to be, like, you have to know everything and think of everything. It's like, you actually to help people, you have to just be one step ahead of them. Like, it's literally that simple. Like, that is it. So don't don't wait until you know until you're an expert, because you'll never begin. You and I, we're still not experts. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So much there's so much that you can continue to learn. Be firm in that and understanding that you are, you know, one step ahead, but, like, then just do it. Right? Just, just start because there are a lot of people that have ideas and the big difference between people that have businesses and people that have ideas is those people that have businesses, they started, they, they got over whatever was in their way and they just started. Okay. Cheryl, if gosh, you've shared so much today. And if people want to learn more about your offerings, about your services, or they just want to connect with you and, and hear more about how you are supporting your clients, where can they find you? Yes. So my website, if you go to my arthritislife.net, it redirects you to my website, which is arthritis.theenthusiasticlife dotcom, which is longer. And, I'm most active on Instagram of all the social medias, just at arthritis_life_cheryl, with a c h. And my and my email is info at my arthritis life dot net. So all those those three ways are the best ways to to get a hold of me. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to be here today. As always, I love chatting with you, and I seriously learn so much every single time we chat. So thank you so much, Cheryl, for coming on the show today. My gosh. Right right back to you. I mean, like, it's so surreal talking to you because the first I first knew of you from your podcast, from the OT For Life podcast. And then I got to know you after the OT Preneur Summit OT Entrepreneur Summit in 2020, and then we began friends. So it's it's it's surreal. I feel very fortunate and and lucky to to, be be able to call you a friend and, to be able to share what little wisdom I've developed on your podcast. So thank you so much. I absolutely love talking with Cheryl and learning. I swear, every single time I talk to her, I learn something. I take away something and, you know, hearing her talk about kind of her business, her OTpreneur journey. There's so many things that we could really dive into, but I think one of the biggest things that I really wanted to just kind of highlight at the end of this episode is really embracing your journey as an OTpreneur. Right? And I, I mentioned this kind of during the episode, but recognizing what skills you have and have had even before starting OT or OTA school and becoming a practitioner. What are things that you have learned in your past that now, wherever you are, if you're a student or if you are a practitioner thinking about starting a business or the very beginning stages of starting a business, what are these other skills outside of your professional knowledge and expertise that you can bring to the table that can help you, you know, grow, develop, and run your business. Right? For Sheryl, it was video editing and kind of this comfort in front of the camera. For others, it could be, you know, any number of things that you have experience with that you can actually bring to the table. So think about that and, and really embrace that on your journey. Right? And I think too, many times our OT business might actually kind of stem from a personal reason or some sort of a personal connection. So going back to my episode with Gretchen Kingmo when she was talking about real estate, I think, you know, kind of one of the pivotal moments in her really just becoming super solid in her business was when she had to go through real estate and selling a house and buying a house for her parents. Right. And she had that personal connection. And, you know, for Cheryl, it was, she was a pediatric practitioner and getting diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. This was, you know, this was, and getting diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, loving her job, loving working in pediatrics, but then real recognizing that there was a gap, that there was so much that wasn't being talked about. There was so much out there that could help people also going through a similar diagnosis, but it wasn't there or there wasn't enough of it, or it wasn't in the right form. You know, it wasn't in the right resource or something like that. And so if you find yourself being one of those people where you are going through something personally and recognizing that as an OT practitioner and as an OT business, we could support people in, you know, going through that, that same diagnosis, that same, that same struggle, that same anything, recognizing that we could make a difference and that we could support that community. We could support those people, embrace it. Right? And, and maybe lean into it a little bit, especially if you're like, I don't see anybody else doing it, or maybe there's one person, you know, across the country or or in a different country that's doing it, and you're like, but nobody's doing it in my local area or something like that. Cheryl brought up the example of, you know, postpartum and motherhood and all of that. I have seen so many OT practitioners step into that role after having their own kids and realizing this kind of lack of resources or lack of education. You know, personally for me, I went through it as well after having my own kids and realizing, like, there's so much out here that one checkup 6 weeks after, you know, having a baby, it doesn't doesn't do it doesn't do anything. Right? Like, yes, it clears you to go back to exercise or whatever, but that's about it. And there's so many other things that can be impacting your life. And so that's, you know, that's just one little example. But if you are recognizing a gap, whether it is because of something personal that you're going through or maybe a friend's going through or a family member, you know, lean into it. And if it's something that you find yourself super passionate about, don't be afraid to go out and do something about it. Right? It doesn't have to be this big full fledged business to start. It could be something that you're doing on the side or maybe you look for other people that you can partner with to, you know, help support in any way that you can, something like that. If you hear that little voice, right, don't, don't let it disappear if it's something that you, that you are truly past passionate about. And I think another thing to bring up is really knowing that it's okay to seek out support as, as an OT preneur, right? I do it. I know Jason does it. We, we have our own support systems. Maybe it's a coach, maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a mastermind group. We have our own support systems that we can go to and vent our problems and, you know, search for answers, search for some sort of validation, or just search for some solidarity that, you know, somebody else is kind of going through something similar or has in the past. And so, you know, don't don't believe that you need to go about this all about your own. And I think that's one of the one of the big kind of foundations of why Jason and I came together for OTpreneur is that a lot of what I learned through business, I did learn by myself, and a lot of it and and we really kind of hope to share our own mistakes and share some of the things that we went through. And so you don't necessarily have to go through all of that. Now, of course, you're going to have your own things that you're going to go through, but that maybe we can help with some of these things that alleviate some of these things that you don't have to go through, that we had to go through when we were starting our business and just being okay with seeking out that mentorship, seeking out support. And, you know, that's another big reason that we started the OTpreneur community. Right? We we really wanted other we wanted OTpreneurs to be able to support each other on their journeys regardless of where you are. So if you are listening to this, realizing that you need some support and that you want to connect with like minded OTpreneurs that are also starting and running their own businesses, you can go to OTpreneur.com/community to join our OTpreneur community and surround yourself with people that get it as well. Again, a big thank you to Cheryl for coming on the show and, you know, sharing so openly about her journey and about her business and everything that she has gone through and is going through. And, you know, business is not always easy. It's actually, I could say it's never easy. Right? There's always so many things that we are dealing with as business owners and learning and trying to figure out the best ways to show up, you know, as our authentic selves and show up within our businesses to support the people that we want to. So thank you, Cheryl. Always a pleasure talking to you and remember wherever you are on your OTpreneur journey, we're here to support you. We will catch you in the next episode and over at 0tpreneur.com. Catch you next time, OTP crew. Thanks for listening to this episode of the OTpreneur podcast. For links or resources mentioned in the show, head on over to OTpreneur.com. It's OTpreneur, where occupational therapy means business.

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