Studio Sessions
Discussions about art and the creative process. New episodes every other week.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
Studio Sessions
62. What Do We Owe The Past When We Build With Its Pieces?
We stumble into uncomfortable territory when Matt shares a YouTube channel that initially captivated him—a series of video essays about art and commerce, aesthetically compelling and philosophically engaged. But when Alex identifies the footage as a filmmaker's documentary work, used without direct credit, we're forced to examine our own assumptions about appropriation, influence, and artistic honesty. What begins as a simple observation becomes a deeper interrogation: Is this reconstitution or appropriation? Branding or art? And why does it bother us so much when someone's work doesn't match the authenticity it preaches?
We contrast this with examples of master filmmakers who dialogue with the past—borrowing a philosopher's cadence, recreating classic shots—in ways that feel transformative rather than extractive. The conversation spirals through our own creative missteps (using music as a crutch in early screenwriting), the finite game of protecting acquired cultural capital versus the infinite game of genuine artistic exchange, and the uncomfortable recognition that we all walk the line between inspiration and imitation. We try to avoid drawing hard rules while acknowledging that when your essay is about rejecting commerce, maybe your method shouldn't look like effective branding. We also examine the uncomfortable but inevitable gap between taste and skill. -Ai
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a rating and/or a review. We read and appreciate all of them. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Links To Everything:
Video Version of The Podcast: https://geni.us/StudioSessionsYT
Matt’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/MatthewOBrienYT
Matt’s 2nd Channel: https://geni.us/PhotoVideosYT
Alex’s YouTube Channel: https://geni.us/AlexCarterYT
Matt’s Instagram: https://geni.us/MatthewIG
Alex’s Instagram: https://geni.us/AlexIG
It had been a golden afternoon, and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with some.
SPEAKER_03:This is the greatest idea for a show ever. Do you want to present it?
SPEAKER_02:Because you don't really I don't really know the Okay, folks, story time.
SPEAKER_03:Buckle up here. Boom. If you're listening, cozy up on the couch or Grab a beverage. Slow your running pace, maybe uh I am interested to what's what's like the stationary to active ratio of the floor. If you're doing the dishes, you might want to turn the intensity of the water flow down a little bit so you can hear every word of this, because this one's a good one.
SPEAKER_02:Also, we have like five reviews on podcast platforms. Really? So if anybody wants to give us a review, just like you don't have to write anything.
SPEAKER_03:You just give us a you can have AI write it.
SPEAKER_02:You can have AI write it, or you just give us the stars.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we'll take the stars.
SPEAKER_02:Um, however many stars you want, too. If you think this is a one-star show.
SPEAKER_03:Here's a crazy thing, Alex. By all means. We've been doing this podcast for two years, and we only have five reviews for the audio version. I've been on Deepop, which is cool eBay, just so you know, this is so you know. It's cool eBay uh for three months, and I have 22 reviews.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's just goes to show what you're selling is a lot more interesting than what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_03:Old t-shirts and Atlanta Braves sweaters are, you know, like when you ship them fast.
SPEAKER_02:We have five reviews. We do not ship things fast here.
SPEAKER_03:We ship our ideas fast. Even though this is from two weeks ago.
SPEAKER_01:Settle down. Yeah, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. We'd be greatly appreciated. Just to say, yeah. Just for fun. Especially on uh what's that podcast platform called that's not podcast? Or Spotify.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, the podcast platform that's not podcast. I don't my brain's melting. Podlamania?
SPEAKER_01:I have no idea. Podify. Anyways, whatever podcast, whatever you use.
SPEAKER_03:It's on. It's up, it's scattered everywhere.
SPEAKER_01:Whatever you got. All right, let's get into it.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Um so in my state of disengagement and intellectual laziness, I unplug every night and decompress and watch some of the YouTubes. And a channel has recently popped up into my feed that I found rather interesting because there's sort of a quality to it that reminds me of our conversations, even though this is one person who is likely sort of writing an essay and then voice overing that essay in a very sort of, I'm making this up as I go along kind of way. And that's not for me, that's not like a like a like a negative thing necessarily, but it there's definitely feels like this person knows to do that. Um especially because they're like 24 minutes long, you know.
SPEAKER_02:There's like a window, and and there's a there's a clear layer of like performance that you can feel.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that comes through in sort of like there's a cogency of thought mixed with sort of like a improvisational discovery thing going on. Anyway.
SPEAKER_02:So I was like That's actually what we're doing on these podcasts. It's just really dumb.
SPEAKER_01:Like the essays that we write are really bad. Yeah, right. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Like I have a teleprompter right here, actually, believe it or not, and Matt has one right here. Right. Yeah. We script the whole conversation before we actually sit down and record these.
SPEAKER_03:And we use some assistance. Alex's is programmed to say like Werner Herzog every other episode, and mine's to bring up Rick Rubin. Martin Scorsese. I mean, ChatGPT writes most of it for me. I'm not gonna lie, but yeah, we're just reading off the teleprompter. So this found this channel interesting. I thought the imagery that was presented was interesting, and since I didn't know the source, I was like, gosh, where's this coming from? Is this archival footage? I kind of like what this person is presenting, these ideas, and I find it interesting. And I was like, I'm like curious what Alex thinks of this. So I sent him a link, and then when we got together two weeks ago, when I originally wrote that down, I was like, just watch a little bit of this and let me know what you think. I tried not to qualify it or give a lot of context, uh, blah, blah, blah. And so he watched it, and I think you started asking about the imagery. Like, where's this from? And I think I just sort of was like, I kind of have like Prelinger Archives for those of you that don't know, Prelinger Archives is like an online archive of tons of media, especially video or film that was you know uh converted to video. And you can get stuff from like the 40s and 50s and people's home movies that were shot on eight millimeter, all kinds of crazy stuff. So I'm like, maybe she's pulling from all of that stuff. Um and then Alex saw something in one of the images that let him know it was from an existing piece of work, a documentary.
SPEAKER_02:And do you want to share Jonas Mykus? Um, and we've talked about we've talked about that on this show before. Yeah. The documentary. Um, but yeah, it's just like a collection of like 30 years of his home videos, and he he put it into a into a film that's um yeah, like several hours long.
SPEAKER_03:And yeah. So when Alex identified that the footage being used for this video essay, this is all in voiceover. There's the person who's doing it is not on camera. He wondered if there was credit given in the description. So we looked, and at the bottom it said some of the effect of this video may contain copywritten material that's used under fair use because of the commentary clause of fair use and all that stuff. And so we kind of was like having those, huh, moments where you're like, how do we feel about this? This imagery was being used during this video, and we're purposely not going to link to the video or talk about it because we just don't want to. Um sorry, this is really cool right now.
SPEAKER_02:The two IVs converging. Yeah, real and fake.
SPEAKER_03:It's just well, and I from my perspective, I see three two shadows. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Synchronicity synchronicity. I liked it.
SPEAKER_02:And my story is long, so um I'm not I'm and I'm I'm absolutely not trying to be like, oh, I'm not listening. I just totally sucked into that was your truth in the moment.
SPEAKER_03:It was great. I love it. I wouldn't want you to stifle that impulse. That's what I learned in action school. Stop stifling your impulses. Um, self-management. So yeah, we then had a conversation two weeks ago about um 14 days. Yeah, amazing how synchronicity. I'm wearing the same thing more or two weeks ago. It's wild how that happens. Uh so we just wondered what does that mean if someone makes a video like this. Now, I'm going to describe what the channel feels like from my perspective. This is my perspective. You may feel differently if you look at it, you may feel differently when you looked at it. To me, it is presented as someone who is very much connected to art and being an artist. And the vibe of the channel, from the banner image to the name of the channel, to the titles of the episodes, the thumbnails, everything. I get the impression that this person has sort of good taste, an eye for something that is interesting and different and cool, sets them apart. Not necessarily that it's calculated to be that way, but they just feel to me like someone who um just kind of gets it. And for me, when you saw that credit wasn't given to the film that was put into the videos, and we're not sure if it's that film was cut up into different pieces and put in the film out of order, or if it was actually in sequence.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna have to yeah, I'm just gonna find that sequence now. Um I actually I don't know if I'll do that, but either way, we should watch we should watch it together because it's beautiful. It's long, but I don't know if we do like little segments of it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But for me, with my perception of the channel and how it's presented being very sort of pro art and artist, when you pointed out that there wasn't credit, I definitely was like, that's unfortunate. That bothers me. Now I I will say, in wrapping up, it is entirely possible that I am in violation in something that I've made of that that I'm unaware of, and need someone to point out, hey, you did this thing with this thing that you made, and it is exactly the same as the thing that this person did that you are opposed to. And it makes me want to re-examine anything I've made. Okay, so that's the setup, and then you went two weeks ago. You went a fortnight. You went you went and gave an example of something and wondered, is that the same as this? Yeah. And that was, and I can let you tell it, but it was unless you don't want to say talk about that specifically, which is fine.
SPEAKER_02:No, we can't. I mean, um, I just the one thing that I think is interesting is are you talking about the the master? Yeah, yeah. Um I don't yeah, I guess I I guess I can talk about that.
SPEAKER_01:PTO.
SPEAKER_02:Um so the one thing that I I thought was interesting is yeah, it's just like And if you need to fill in your own context or link to that. No, I don't you you you covered it pretty well. Um, I mean the it's an I have mixed feelings. Um It's important like the like are dialogues like that or like uh just talking about art and in a in a not as as like a uh contrast to a commercial world is is important. It's also becoming a subgenre um more and more by the day, uh and it's just gonna get more uh I mean everything like there's definitely a trend in that direction. And with and with any trend, any cultural trend, you're gonna have people that you know try to take advantage of that to bring themselves relevance. I'm not saying that that's what this person is doing, but I am saying that if all they're doing is taking a Jonas Mikus, you know, 25 minutes of of clips from a film that's several hours long, and they're just putting sections and doing a kind of stream of consciousness, but also written out voiceover. I mean, it's not not art, or it's not not, I don't know if it's it's it's not not like a creation, but it's it it it has more of the it has more of the association in my mind of branding. It's it's branding. They're just very hyper-aware of the brand that they're trying to create and they are branding themselves. And I'm not even saying that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it is kind of in direct opposition to what they're speaking of, speaking about. It's kind of in it's the antithesis of what in this case and what this video was about, yeah, ironically, and what the whole channel seems to be about. And I just think we need to be very careful and aware of people that are, and you could even say that we're just trying to capitalize on this whole I mean you know, I personally obvious obviously I always create a justification for everything that I do because I'm me and that is how I how humans are. But you know, like we we've been having these conversations for a long time. Um and like we don't really try to promote this thing, but then again, if this like blew up, then we we we could you know would the context change enough to where we're guilty of the same thing potentially. Um but yeah, I just you know it's important, but it just rubs me the wrong way. And I don't, but I don't even know, like I didn't even engage with it enough to I mean I'm I just it's not it's not my I'm not I don't care enough to like try to I'm not the police of what is art and what is not like I don't I don't care enough nor am I am like do I have any kind of say in this matter or for like any matter for that um it just rubs me personally the wrong way and I thought it was interesting and yeah we we decided to talk about it um one thing though is like uh you know we we that led us to talk about artists dialoguing with the past and I this is an idea that I I love yeah other older work and I love this because you know last last week two weeks ago 14 days a fortnight um we we talked about this concept of um like by way of influencing something something stays alive like um like just by way of having influence it keeps that thing alive and um like the ability to for people to interact with it and I I love whether it's film literature music whatever I love things that interact or recreate things that are in dialogue with an old an older thing because it gives that older thing life it shares the influence to a new and you know this the we you have examples of this being done in like you know maybe a fairly lazy way all the way to like a really interesting way and um what were we so we were talking about um The Master and so The Master is one of my favorite one of my favorite PTA films and I I really love that that film I've seen it several times and on this um there was like um our our local theater had uh PTA month and that was one of the films that was playing and it was on 35 and I hadn't seen it on 35 yet and I was really excited to go see it. Um and so I went to see it with my wife and a buddy of ours um and it was amazing it was great and we're leaving the we're leaving the the theater and I was just I don't know why but I'd been um I'd been listening to Alan Watts talks at some point in like the month or two before we went to see it and I just had that rhythm that like voice cadence in my mind and I was like oh man Lancaster Dodd's uh cadence his his his delivery and so that's you know partially in the writing and then partially in Philip Seymour Hoffman and obviously Alan Watts is British Philip Seymour Hoffman is not neither is he's not he's obviously not British in that role but the delivery cadence the the way that he was like playing the room was the same yep um or at least in in my head I was like that's the same that's that's Alan Watts I've I'd never made I'd seen that movie like 10 times I never made that connection until until then I obviously been listening to like Alan Watts talk since like high school um because because everybody does that. Oh yeah um but uh I was like oh that's interesting and I I told my buddy this and then I kind of just let it sit and um you know I just I for me I like digging into those influences um and seeing where it came from and then obviously or not not obviously but like so the the shot in that film where the houseboat goes under the Golden Gate Bridge is like a recreation of a of an Orson Wells film. So it's like dialoguing with that an homage literally yeah kind of an homage to that. And I'm not this isn't like I mean I I have a very clear opinion on this like this isn't stealing like the people are like oh he's stealing this shot or whatever this is like PTA clearly knows how to make and write and direct a film. He doesn't this isn't like he's not using this as a crutch he's using this as a way to dialogue with something that he respects or that he admires and a way to bring that into again like we talked about with the cave last week you know or two weeks ago 14 days a fortnight um he's using that as a way to you know bring it back into the cultural spotlight which is a wonderful thing. That's literally what like a film needs that to survive that that's part of you know creating film or any art form. But yeah I was sitting a couple of weeks ago and uh I became aware I had no idea of like this like Alan Watts uh houseboat and it has a name what was the I'll just give the name so people can look this up if they want um so the houseboat is called the Vallejo it's like a ferry a steam ferry and it was a boat that Alan Watch used to host parties and events on and uh to do work on occasionally and it was in San Francisco and it was home like hosted a lot of you know intellectuals and thinkers and things like that and they would come and you know just do what that group of people does. And for those of you that have seen The master, you know that that's like the primary setting for you know 40% of the film. So I was like, oh, okay. So there's definitely like some inspiration that was drawn from this. Maybe like, you know, I don't know if he was researching that, and then maybe he like took like took the um cadence just unconsciously, or if it was conscious, who cares? But just cool connection. Long way of saying I mentioned that, and then I was like, I don't know if that's the same thing as this. No, yeah. And you were you were pretty clear about yeah, that it's not. No. And so why do you think that? And I I don't think it is either. Yeah. Because of the I mean, just the raw materials that are go into it. Like although I don't know how much time she spent writing these essays. Right. So that's not fair of me to like critique, but I know probably PTA probably spent like years writing that film. I know Philip Seymour Hoffman and Joaquin Phoenix spent decades honing their craft, and you know, I that every member of that crew spent absolutely. I'm not trying to say that YouTube art is not as significant as that, but then again, like there are. Yeah. So, anyways, I'll shut up and let you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, in two different forms, you know, an essay certainly has its place in the world of art and creativity. You know, maybe it's on like an extreme end of the spectrum of the art side, especially if it's sort of a critical essay or um, you know, something that presents a thesis and then is elaborated upon to come to reinforce that thesis or come to a conclusion. Um to me, though, the two words that I think of is with um the master is it's a sort of reconstitution of those influences and ingredients. Whereas taking this footage from this documentary, whether it's played for 24 minutes as it was presented in the documentary frame for frame, or if it's chopped up and reorganized or whatever, it's an the word I think of is an appropriation of that piece of work, that piece of finished realized work. And even if you are rearranging it, you are still showing, you're still appropriating you know, frames or groups of frames of that film in the way that it was um shown in the movie. Now, if she this person like put a filter on there and changed the color, you know, okay. Did they though? I don't I don't I I doubt it. I don't think they can right. And I'm not saying like, okay, then that constitutes a reconstitution.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and like if but even if they did that, then that gives me at least like there's like an original vision. Yeah. I mean you can look at like certain yeah uh like a parody, like a card like uh things like that reconstitution of of like open the open source image or things like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Or, you know, the the the the one that's been closest to being uh difficult and uh is like a weird El Yankovic parody. Yeah. He's literally taking the music note for note, reperforming it himself with his band, and coming up with new lyrics to be comedic and satirical and you know, whatever he's trying to be. Um and while you know, that to me is there's an art form in parody. I think some would argue something like that is difficult when it comes to originality, and others would go, nope, that's wholly original. At least in court it's considered original. Um, I believe.
SPEAKER_02:It's almost like though if your topic is how art should be separate from like a commercial product, you shouldn't be defining your art or your originality in legal, legalistic terms. Like that's right in complete opposition to the the like the core thesis that you're trying to um it's not very persuasive, if that yeah. Not that and I mean, yeah, like I don't like I'll be the first to say I don't think art should ever try to persuade. I'm you know, I'm like a hundred percent completely opposed to hyper didactic art.
SPEAKER_03:Is it even art if it is hyper didactic?
SPEAKER_02:Right. I I mean yeah, it's like that's an oxymoron. Like yeah, hyperdidactic in in my mind disqualifies it from being art. It's propaganda. Yeah, something else. Yeah. So And I stole that from Gary Winnegreen. You bastard. Uh that's another one of my GPTs. I have to mention like every third episode or whatever.
SPEAKER_03:Right, yes, that's on that's on the teleprompter, actually. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Queued it up nicely. Street photographer, insert street photographer, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um that's right. So um all of that to say, you know, I I would be curious, and I know this is difficult for those who are listening because you don't have the exact channel in front of you. You haven't watched the video.
SPEAKER_02:I want to make sure we're taking it above that, so it's not that's not.
SPEAKER_03:My hope is that you can understand this idea of someone writing an essay, recording a voiceover to have their own original thoughts. Um, and again, thoughts that are shaped from other influences, things they've read, things they've watched, things they've consumed, and taking that voiceover and putting it on a video that is taken from another artist without direct credit.
SPEAKER_02:There also is in on that channel, just a brief observation that just came to mind. There seems to be like a release cadence in several videos that kind of also oppose the idea that that's being discussed. Yeah. Like if the idea is how you know art is not commerce, yet there's like all of these commercial elements in it's almost like the the I mean we've talked about this before, but like the format of YouTube dominates so much that like you whether you realize it or not, you're building on a framework that's already uh like removed the possibility of creating something that's truly anything just because of the parameters of the frame. If you're trying to succeed on the platform, like it's going to force your hand to a certain set of parameters. And in this case, this channel is like doing pretty good. Like, there's a lot of videos that have been posted. Yeah. And I'm not saying an artist cannot be, you know, cannot release a lot of material. You know, there's several prolific artists, but you know, I don't know. It just uh upon first first read. Um yeah, that that's like my thought. And again, I don't want to like I don't want to critique too much because I'm not gonna put the effort into like there's no I get nothing out of like speaking down on anybody in this sense. And then also it's like I'm not gonna put the time in to go back and be like, oh, is this doing this? Or like like Matt showed it to me. I looked at it for a couple of minutes and I I like gave first thought, and then I was like, okay, yeah, like for all intents and purposes, it's like I'll probably leave it there, but yeah, it's just interesting, right?
SPEAKER_03:And and um uh I think the the to to bring it home the question I have is if someone makes something that does what this video did, do they have an obligation to credit the source of the imagery? I mean, if you write a academic paper and you defend your thesis by bringing up points that were made in other books or publications or artwork, whatever, you have uh footnotes or a bibliography, you have to cite your sources, um, cite your work, does something like this. And and the the reason I asked that is because essentially what you did was, and I'm kind of coming up with this analogy on the spot, it probably is gonna make it seem a little bit more nefarious than maybe this person's intent was, but it was as if I saw behind the curtain of the Wizard of Oz.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's like if you screened your film at a film festival and it was just somebody else's images and you did a voiceover, why would that be acceptable?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And like, should it be acceptable? I don't know. Maybe. So but why like it wouldn't be acceptable in that, and so why is it acceptable on YouTube?
SPEAKER_03:So my my feeling is that there was a meaning and a sort of understanding of what this work was, thinking that this person creatively and artfully collage together these disparate clips and all that. And collage is a great word for it because I think of collage artists and I uh and I I love collage work. I did a lot of collage stuff when I was a kid, cutting out interesting images from magazines and sort of recontextualizing them into something that meant something to me that made me feel a certain way. Uh a woman from a good housekeeping magazine and uh a receipt from a grocery store, you know, I don't know, and and putting all these different things together. Now, that woman in the photograph was someone else's work. Um and trying to reconstitute it, like we said earlier, gives it a different meaning and it's new work, right? So I had formed this feeling about what I was experiencing, what I was watching, who this person was, um and to find out that they're putting in this somewhat uh obscure footage from a documentary without giving credit, although acknowledging that it's copywritten, it it kind of shatters this thing that I had built up in my mind. Well, let me play devil's advocate.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, please do.
SPEAKER_02:So when I first started, like I guess like specifically with screenwriting, and I think a lot of people do this when they're when they're like first starting. Yeah. And I'd be curious if you did this. Did you ever write a scene that was like like visually very weak? Like maybe it's just like a close-up, and then you have a song that really makes you feel something.
SPEAKER_03:It's so funny that you over at this. I've been thinking about this the whole time.
SPEAKER_02:Did you do that? Because I did that, certainly, where you like you're literally using the music as a crutch to carry you. Like you you do not have the skill to express the emotional content that you need to express in that moment. So you use this song that just breaks you or brings you to that emotional kind of high point, and you just overlay that on the scene. And so it you're like, oh, this scene's doing all the work, like, because this music is gonna have that same effect on somebody else. And so Devil's Advocate would be like one of your comments was like, This person seems so young. Yeah. So what if this is just like a 15 to you know 22-year-old, and this is them not having not yet having the ability to create the imagery that they want to or that they see that gets them to this emotional place, and so they're just using, they're borrowing somebody else's, and it's like wha while again that was like you know, you that was like I don't even think that like it's not good writing. Like you don't I don't look at scenes like that and I'm like, oh man, like this was killer because like you're you're relying on the music to do all the work. And do you mean that you're relying on music listening to it while you write it, but if it were to be Oh, I mean like full on, like you put it in the script as like as like a yeah, like oh, I have this scene that needs to get this emotion across. I'm gonna put this song in it, and then just like holding like a medium close-up. Yeah. And that's gonna do the trick. It's like so. Instead of actually using your toolbox as a writer or filmmaker, you're essentially just using somebody else's skills.
SPEAKER_03:I think that really brings up a question about music as well. Because that's the same thing as this person's doing in my mind. That one went down. Um, I think that brings up a question about um music and movies in general. Um, iconic moments in film where an artist or a composer did not create original music specifically for that movie in collaboration with the director.
SPEAKER_02:But I think at a certain point, like the director earns the like the way like a Scorsese uses music is he loads the film with music because he's it's the setup for the payoff of the moments without the music. Like he under Orson, there's a great Orson Walls quote in a documentary where he says, um, he's talking about music and film, and they're like, What is the importance of music and film? And he says, music highlights silence. And it's like that's the purpose. Yeah. And when you can use that to bring in some kind of, you know, a cultural, um like a cultural context, or you can use the music to bring in some kind of a um an aesthetic, or even like a juxtaposition or a contrast. We just lost both of these. We'll have to wrap this up pretty soon. Or a contrast to what's being shown. I thought we had more time. Yeah, no. Should we just end it right there? No.
SPEAKER_01:No, just let the video keep going.
SPEAKER_02:Or a c or a contrast to what's being shown. Like there's just a more skillful way to use it. But like when we like when we're writing these scripts, really like that's not it's uh we're not using it in a skillful way. Yeah. Like that is just a lack of understanding of where the music comes into the picture. Yep. Um, and I think that could be what's happening here with images, is there's just like a like a a gap in ability that might be overcome eventually, but it it could just be youth and and experience. So like the intention is not bad.
SPEAKER_03:Sure, absolutely, and I don't think it is either. But does omitting the credit if the credit was there, would you then go they they don't know because the cameras are off, but I'm naked right now. If if um you saw that the credit was there in the description or it was in the video itself, like in an end credits or whatever, would you regard what this person did similarly to what a PTA or Scorsese does when he uses another artist's work to enhance what they're asking, doing, creating.
SPEAKER_02:No. And I'm I'm not trying to be offensive to this person, but like this isn't like the prop my problem with this isn't the lack of credit per se. Like I I would like appreciate the credit. I think the reason that this person didn't put the credit in there, unless they are just they maybe they don't realize where this is from, uh I highly doubt it. I highly doubt it. I hope you doubt it. Um I think they probably have they they know that like, oh, if I like if they are just taking it, like, oh, let me just find a 28-minute section and then throw it in here. Yeah. Like let me just cut out 28 minutes and toss it in here and talk over it. Yeah. If they recognize that, uh they probably like they they probably recognize the fact that if they gave credit, it would give away the illusion. Right. And then it would take away so they it it's like there's a self-realization happening, likely, yeah, that oh, this isn't really art. But I mean, is that any different from like us realizing like you know, reading back on some of that stuff where we just put music in the in the whatever? Yeah. Is that any different from us realizing like, oh, that's shit? Like that is shite. Yep.
SPEAKER_03:You know, that's a shite scene. I think something interesting about music in a movie, Scorsese, PTA. It is part of a large pool of ingredients that make up that finished piece of artwork. And for this, when you're talking about just this video, there are two ingredients. Arguably three. It's a voice and the essay that was written. The performance. The vocal performance. The performance, the essay. The essay and the images. And to me, there are too few ingredients to make the imagery supportive rather than like half the thing.
SPEAKER_02:I know it's a third, but but it's like Well it's like the the like I'm and I'm the performance is not great. I mean, just objectively, like I'm not, I'm not, but both you and I said, like, oh, there's like an artifice to this. Like there's like a it feels like a performance.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I mean that is a the subjective interpretation. I mean, I don't know if it's like empirically that way.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I don't I don't know though, because if if it wasn't, I mean, unless she's actually just going off the top of her head. Yeah. Which then that also that kind of is also defeating because then that takes away the other that that takes away the premeditated crafted form of the essay. So then it's just somebody riffing over eclipse, which honestly is what we're doing right now. No. Um just black. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Or you're gonna come up with something.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna put the I'm gonna put the Jonas me Jonas Miguel. There you go.
SPEAKER_03:Um yeah. Credit given in the credits.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, no, I'm doing like Barney reruns or something. Yeah, there you go. Really fun. Um Veggie Tales. What's that scene in shortcuts where she's like on the phone with the God did I do the sex line? Yeah, I don't know. Anyways, I don't know why I thought of that.
SPEAKER_03:Um There's a sex line in Hunter Drunk Love, too. There is. He stole shortcuts.
SPEAKER_02:Like if there's three elements, then one of the elements isn't isn't theirs. One of the elements isn't done well, and I'm not saying it wouldn't get better, but it's just it's still like very raw. Yeah. Which I mean, I don't know. Like, but like craft is definitely uh it is resonating with a lot of people though. It is, it is, it is. I but I then again I just don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Like, is that just like And that doesn't mean that it's good, it just means that yeah, it's people are connecting, you know, they're they're enjoying something. Now the thing that I was enjoying it's like branding. A lot of what I was enjoying though was this imagery. This imagery was very enigmatic and say we need to watch this thing together for like two years and it's make it it is doing a lot of work to enhance what's I'm I'm hearing.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you even said like I feel like the writing, I wish the writing was better.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so that's and that's where I'm getting at. Like, if so, if two out of the three things are subpar, and then the one thing that's outstanding isn't theirs, that's not art. And I want everybody I just I what when I say I wish I sound I sound I just I want to I just want to just give a little bit of like because I I just I I like I don't have any interest in being this negative.
SPEAKER_03:It's not about being negative. Like I'm not trying to be if we would just sat down and said, hey, there's this channel, let's roast it, that's different than this person made a choice. Yeah. Or didn't make a choice and was sort of just uh uh doesn't doesn't know better.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Those are two different things, of course.
SPEAKER_02:If it was a obviously a intentional omission of the credit because it was well, and again, it's not it's not so much the credit, it's just like the acknowledgement like of this this is a f it's just a very lazy uh misunderstanding of what like art actually is. Like they'd be better off just taking a camera and going out and collecting their own imagery, and that would be closer to real art than what this is. Yeah. And I think that that misunderstanding is justifiable in just about any circumstance except for one where you are is pontificating too strong?
SPEAKER_03:Like you're literally yeah, you're so there's a comp it's a combination of pontification and sort of this is the big one. It's like phyllo-wisdomizing, it's like this merging of philosophy and wisdom that you are you know, there's sort of like a question that's asked and and in this in this conflict that's brought up, and then it's sort of brought together with like a point of view.
SPEAKER_02:And now it's not like it's it's really nice that we we talked about the master just with this, because yeah, it's it it's just like it's it's not true. It's not like uh it's not coming from a place, or maybe it even is coming from a place of honesty, but it's it's it's closer to like misunderstanding delusion than it is to again. To me, it comes down to the two words. It sounds really I'm not I'm not trying to be cruel either. Like I just want to be super clear.
SPEAKER_03:Like this is look, look, no matter what, I think it's an appropriation, and there can be an appropriation of something that is innocent and sort of clueless.
SPEAKER_02:And sometimes an appropriation is is beautiful because it gives like it does serve the purpose of showing the perspective of the person that is appropriate appropriating a thing. Yeah. Like by way of the appropriation, you are creating a new context. And that's you know, it you know, if if you're not if you're doing that in an honest way, that's art.
SPEAKER_03:There you go. Especially when it is it is clear to the viewer what you've appropriated. Yeah. Versus But this is not that. Versus I have built this whole idea of you and what you're doing and your perspective and what you are representing and all of this stuff, sort of you as a creative. And then it's it's just a moment of huh, when that idea is broken because you learn something that bothers you. Now look, I I have my photography channel where I go out and take photographs of stuff that I see and I take video of interesting things that I see, and I go to a website and take a music track that lets me remove stems. You know, if I don't want the bass drum in there, I can remove it. If I just want the synth bed, and I can sort of reconstitute that person's music into something I like more than the form that they originally intended. Yeah. And even in doing that, I'm giving credit at the end of the video on screen and in the description. This is where I got this music from. It's from this site, it's from these artists, this is the name of the song. And I'm not like this, isn't it pat myself on the back. I'm such a great artist or creative because my videos essentially are similar in ingredients. It's a photograph, a video, and sound, uh, four ingredients, uh, music and then the sound of the natural environment where I filmed it and did photographing. That's my thing that I made. And I think that even though people would might watch that and go, I really like this. There is something this makes me tell a story about the person who made this and I come up with this or that or whatever. I don't feel like there's anything in the presentation of what I've made where if they found out this thing, they would go it would shatter, it would shatter the entire, yeah. I mean, it's yeah, it's just like they may not like that I can't make my own music. Like I couldn't actually play and cr score my own videos. Um, but Casey Neistat can't either. He has somebody else do it. And guess what he does at the end of every video? He credits them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No, I mean yeah, it's and PTA credits all the music in his film. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I mean, yeah, it's just that's the thing. It's just and uh but then again, I don't want to be too harsh because it's like we've all done that thing. Like we've all done that thing where we have some kind of artistic intuition or feeling and we use a crutch to get you know to reach that expression. And you know, maybe maybe to this person giving that credit is like oh like admitting that they're not at this moment capable of creating something like that. Yeah. And I mean shit, like they're i you know, Jonas Mikas is not a bad influence. Yeah. So like, you know, i this person is not like this is not the end of their artistic journey. You know, so hopefully they they they they hopefully they they grow th past this. And maybe this is just like the the start. Maybe this is just the yeah, put the radio head song in the in the action line and then write your scene.
SPEAKER_03:And I think this brings up another interesting question. I keep gravitating towards a rule. If if what you're doing with the thing that you're making contains this without this, it's wrong. Right? I want to have this hard, fast rule. Yeah. And I feel like what you're talking about is let's try to attach ourselves to that person's intention. Yeah. And it is likely that this person was not trying to pull a fast one on anyone. Yeah. They love this imagery, they want it to be a part of their expression, and there was a very innocent and altruistic incorporation of that work into their work. Yeah. And that's all it is.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. And you know, it's like, would it would it be better to credit that person? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But then, I mean, yeah, it's like it's hard to admit to yourself that you're not at the level that you want to be.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it's like we go through that every day with tons of things. Absolutely. And so do I blame that person for being like, I'm not gonna include that. Right. Somebody calls me out on it, then I'll say sure. Well, but then also maybe just trusting the fact that like this is such an obscure. I mean, it's a it's a pretty obscure pull. It's not like the most obscure, certainly not, but it is obscure enough to where you know you can probably be pretty confident that you could build an audience that's not gonna be.
SPEAKER_03:Well, here's how this comes full circle with something we talked about two weeks ago. Fourteen days of Fortnite. Talked about finite and infinite.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And in the society example, it was like society versus culture. Yeah, this is a bad paraphrase of it, but essentially sort of like if you have acquired something and you fear the loss of it, you will make enemies out of those that put that at risk, right? So her channel created something that I liked an idea, a feeling, an impression, something that made me intrigued and interested, and start telling a story of maybe who this person was, especially because it's uh just a uh disembodied voice, and you know, your imagination starts telling a story and putting all this stuff together, and I built this thing that wasn't given to me.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and that's why I said it was super effective branding.
SPEAKER_03:Like and I liked that feeling, yeah. And then it was taken away, yeah. And that loss creates outrage or anger, and then are you looking for something to make what they them the enemy because they did something wrong, they broke a rule, and am I just having this kind of finite reaction that needs to be more nuanced and spectrum based and on a gradient? Yeah. And just chill the fuck out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I hope I'm not misinterpreting.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you know, there's always a chance that they are completely aware of it, and they said, I'm gonna create a channel and I'm gonna take advantage of this authentic art shit.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Cause that is a space that or I mean it's the you know, it's the example from a couple of weeks ago. It's the the channel, the person wants to just be an influencer or a blogger or a vlogger or whatever. So they pick a genre of you know, health or dumb phones, or like here's this thing that I'm gonna that I don't really care about, but I'm gonna assume the identity of because it's gonna allow me to gain influence.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:So maybe, maybe that is, and uh, that's one thing I said is like we have to be very careful because we are treading into territory where um effectively branding authenticity is going to be valuable, it's gonna be culturally significant. Hence when that happens, you're creating a world where suddenly it is, you know, it is monetarily incentivized to you know falsify or to manipulate you know this idea of I mean it you know, to go back to the finite and infinite games example to create borders on this thing that should be infinite, to pick enemies and to you know fight against things and yeah, and that's dangerous, and we have to be careful as just as a as a species, we have to be careful about that. But you know, that it's also not the first time that's happened, it's not the last time that'll happen. Um, it's just something to be aware of. But well, and I think I don't think that's what this person is is doing. You know, benefit of the doubt, I I I say it's probably not. I say it's probably more likely that it's just like it's the you know, what's the irregular concept of like the gap or whatever? It's yeah, skill and taste. Right. It's probably that manifesting in a number of ways.
SPEAKER_03:But well, and and and also what we've talked about before, sort of um the the difference between uh an artist and a hack, and that being someone that sort of sees an opportunity and crafts something, kind of like you said, branding, to reach a sort of um a commercial end. And commercial doesn't always have to be money in the way that I'm saying it. It could be fame, it could be um influence, it could be these things that are the cultural currency.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um and I think maybe part of my frustration with it is that deep down there are you know concerns and hesitations and thoughts of me doing similar things. You know, am I wearing the clothes that I'm wearing because I truly love them, or is part of me wearing them because of what it'll signal?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And what it might make someone think about me because, oh, you've got that jacket, or you've got that cool t-shirt, or you've got this or that, you know? And and is it a do you realize at the end of the day that, you know, the banner on her channel, the way her voiceover is, or the obscure documentary she used, is that another um version of what I or someone else might do to achieve some kind of more shallow result, which is um, you know, money, riches, wealth, influence, power, relevance, um uh people you don't know thinking nice things about you, all of that. And that's I think I think this little thing on a YouTube channel throws all of that stuff into the blender and makes you go. I'm, you know, again, uh a little bit of everything. I probably do a lot of stuff with pure intentions, and I probably do a lot of stuff to signal, to brand myself, to, you know, all of this stuff. And it vacillates back and forth between degrees of intensity, and maybe you pulled back from your YouTube channel because there was something going on there with something on that other side that this doesn't feel good, and I can withstand a lot more of that than you can. Um, you know, uh all of that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I was interested, it's an interesting. I'm glad you I'm glad you showed it. Yeah. I didn't I don't want to like I feel part of me does feel a little bit of guilt because like I didn't I didn't my intention wasn't like to ruin a thing. Like no. And I don't want you to be like, oh, I don't want to show him this thing that I like because it he's gonna just like shatter it. Like that's not like I didn't I didn't want to shatter it. No.
SPEAKER_03:But it's just like as well, and you had no idea what my perception of it was, but you just made a sort of uh uh uh an objective observation it was just a simple thing and it you know it brought about uh a greater awareness of what this thing is yeah and I can let my imagination take it to a dark place or I can give people the benefit of the doubt and keep things in a positive light and go, okay, well, you had a perception of this thing and an idea of what it was and now you can that will shift and adjust and evolve and reach a different level of understanding. And maybe a year from now if you're still watching things from this person, you'll compare and contrast where they are later and earlier, just like you would want someone to do for the stuff that you do.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I do. Oh I mean I wouldn't want somebody look like judging me you know by the work I made when I was yeah I'm 15 or 20 or even you know 22, 23. Like yeah yeah I think there's there's something too about constantly working at the at the edge of your current capability. Like there's something to that of always being at the the absolute razor's edge of your current capability. And you know that might you know that it might look like I don't know excuse the overused expression but child's play. Yeah you know 20 years down the line but i if you're at the moment that is the like the edge of your current capability and if it is honest then that work will never lose its relevance to you. And it will never and there's you know if if it never loses its relevance to you it'll never lose its relevance to some people but then yeah there's also like I think the big thing there is like is it like there's no there's obviously there is a bit of a benefit of growing a channel like that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But like if this person really does care about creating art they can have a million fuck they can have five million fucking subscribers. If they care about creating art if that's not just something that they're talking about doing and maybe that is maybe it is just that you know it is just the subgenre to achieve the the it's the the means to the end. If that's the case more power to them. But if they really do care about it like this will eat at them because it's that the this is not the right approach.
SPEAKER_03:That's my opinion all right well I'm gonna say something that kinda blows this up a little bit. You're gonna I I'll put clothes on that fine so our podcast starts off with two pieces of IP or content that are not something we made. Yeah the imagery dude I don't even know where it's from to be honest.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah like I have no idea and this is not I literally searched when I made this so if somebody can tell us we'll happily credit it I just I literally don't know I searched Japanese anime car sh like car whatever yeah and just found these clips yeah so I have no idea I mean obviously we know that uh the uh the Larry Fisherman right um I mean yeah the Mac Miller birthday um and then yeah there's the Gatsby quote in that which is being yeah used from the awful awful Gatsby movie was that like 1970 with uh uh what's his name Robert Redford and um yeah what's his name just dirt bag yeah he's not I don't know if he's actually dirt he just plays dirtbags God what's that guy that movie stinks um anyways yeah and I don't mean to say like I'm not trying to defend like sure I just I literally it's not like I'm not putting it in and that's why I did say like if she doesn't know where this is from but I mean if you're putting 20 minutes there's likelihood is that you know it's uh but yeah I literally don't know where this is from I have no fucking clue it's been three years too since I pulled that yep I don't have yeah but I think there's there's there's like a there's like an innocence of that that if okay so let's say somebody watches our podcast and says hey check out these guys' podcast and the friend there is like hardcore anime yeah yeah he's like oh that's from yeah yeah whatever and the guys I don't know if we've been watching this for two years I don't know if we've ever like I don't know if any part of our podcast though hinges on that like we could in this intro away completely and our podcast is the exact same like I have literally like we literally had the conversation like there might be a time like and I don't think this will happen because this is I mean one his estate manages the thing and they're really good about it but you're like you're like if if we ever got like copyrighted for the for that Larry Fisherman intro yeah like and I was like well we'd have to just fucking go take it out and it would suck. Yeah like we'd have to literally carve but YouTube makes it easy. We could just carve it out of every episode pretty easily doesn't change the content at all. Yeah changes the vibe a little bit I mean exactly whereas we could do a replace with some like boop boop boop boop and it's the same yep how how's that go?
SPEAKER_03:That's it.
SPEAKER_02:Just extract that audio of the future is just and I mean I that's I I get it I sound like I'm trying I'm being super defensive here.
SPEAKER_03:No no it's not about being defensive defensive it's trying to again it sucks because we're trying to draw lines.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah right which is like the opposite of what yeah our heart wants us to do but then there's a part of you your brain that goes well we need to have some groundwork here and I think you're making a great argument the entirety of what we make does not hinge on this ingredient being present and there's an argument that these videos of this person because there's three ingredients and this is one of them and it's 24 minutes 28 minutes the subscriber count would not be the same without the images if you took it away and just had black or or just them on camera or they sourced their own imagery by using a camcorder and filming weird shit yeah and editing it all together think that that channel could be have more people I think I think of like the intellectual content though of like an Alex Soth essay where he's just sitting at his desk and he's like filming the shitty top down yeah the overhead and I'm like so what if he put Jonas Mikis over his talks like how profound would that be yeah so so I am curious for our listeners and our viewers and I know our listeners don't have a way to comment on the podcast the audio podcast but they could come over to the YouTube channel and write a comment.
SPEAKER_03:I'd just be curious to hear a goddamn review write a review podcast and then throw some comments down again I know it's a little difficult to get as close to this as we are because you haven't seen the channel in the videos. And that it just we can't it just kind of it doesn't work then I'm not yeah no we can't we can't show this. Oh no yeah yeah I'm not gonna like sort of like that's just cunty yeah I don't want to and I know it's like oh just show us whatever but it it definitely is like without question a hard no on sort of outing yeah YouTube's big enough you're probably not yeah it's just it yeah just not uh it's it's not a question. But I just for those of you that are kind of engaged in this question about how do you handle these types of things and sort of like what is a again I'm trying to avoid like rules like just in the situation that we're talking about do you think it's appropriate for someone to give credit or are they okay not to? Yeah it's one of my favorite expressions it's like it's like when people are you know it's porn you know it's yeah just the easy out it yeah you know when you see it described yeah when does it cross over it's like a buddy buddy we're having this conversation then you haven't seen it yet that's a fair point yeah so is that from anything is that I don't know we need to find it I've used that a quarter of a million times it's a good it's a good uh yeah you know it when you see it I know exactly what that is yeah so okay well it had been a golden afternoon and I remember having the familiar conviction that life was beginning over again with someone else
