Episode 3: The Power of Dedication

There is a complex push and pull between what the legislature has created agencies to do and what the public thinks they want and need from their government. Guests: Sia Her and Frank Kohlasch.

0:00 Introduction
4:13 Describe your job?
8:19 What should someone know before they show up to make change, so they don't turn around?
11:06 You guys take a lot of heat. Why does it work that way?
23:50 Do you consider yourself accessible to the community?
29:09 What do you wish someone had told you when you started?
34:51 Conclusion

Transcript

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Alan Berks:

 Welcome to Our House, a podcast that pulls back the curtain on Minnesota State government. I’m Alan Berks.

Leah Cooper: And I’m Leah Cooper. We’re the co-artistic directors of a theater company called Wonderlust Productions. In the process of putting together an original show about life at the state capitol, we learned that Minnesota politics is very much like theater. 

CHORUS

It’s a game, it’s a show.

There’s so much happening behind the scenes

That you don’t know.

Alan Berks:

 In our last episode, we talked about the culture of the Capitol with two legislators. But the state of Minnesota employs more than 50,000 people. Only 201 of them are elected legislators. 

Leah Cooper:

 Wonderlust creates art from the stories of people who are essential to how Minnesotans live their lives but whose stories are ignored or misunderstood. There are 50,000 people who are charged with working for all Minnesotans but whose stories are only ever seen through a lens distorted by politics.

Alan Berks:

 Most of the lines in the play we made come directly from people who work at the Capitol and one of my favorites is “Crisis happens everyday and government deals with it. You may not notice if the crisis doesn’t affect you but it affects lots of people.” That’s what nonpartisan staff do – deal with crises you may not see.

Leah Cooper:

 For this episode we brought together two state employees who try very hard to stay out of – or work around – politics. Sia Her is the Executive Director of the Council on Asian Pacific Minnesotans. For her, this work is way beyond politics. It’s personal, it’s cultural, and it is multi-generational.

Sia Her:

So I said to my father, you know, grandpa died for a cause, and grandpa's cause was that the future generations of Hmong ancestry people have to find a way to get to the table, where decisions about tomorrow are being made,

Alan Berks:

And Frank Kohlasch, the Assistant Commissioner of Air and Climate Policy at Minnesota’s Pollution Control Agency – where the work can sound purely technical but it actually also touches on history and real human well-being.

Frank Kohlasch 

So in the 20s 30s 40s, there were racial covenants that said, Black people couldn't purchase a house here, they couldn't live here, Jewish people couldn't purchase a house, they couldn't live here. If we think that Well, that happened in the 20s 30s 40s doesn't happen anymore – Take that map, from where those deeds exist, and where those diverse populations were then forced to live. We place it over what we see today. And they're still pretty much overlaid, just as they were, and then look closer. That's where our interstates go through. And hundreds of thousands of cars a day, with emissions coming out of them, people living right there. And then you look a little closer. And you see that's where the city's decided to put their heavy industrial facilities. So now we're just layered over on top of all of that, and it creates a challenge for us today - to unwind that. And then we end up back with what does the legislature say, what is our authority? 

Alan Berks:

  Here’s another way that the Capitol is like theater. Like professional actors who have to interpret a script, employees in state agencies also have to interpret the text of legislation. How they interpret can shift.

Leah Cooper:

They also talk about how hard it is to do what they do when people don’t understand how government really works.

Sia Her:

 You know, one of the most negative things that I often see is people come in, and then they exit just as fast as they entered, because they were already really disillusioned to begin with, they come in for five minutes, and they say, “See, I told you,” right, and then they leave. Right. And to me, that's an incredibly negative consequence. Because then, we don't have an opportunity to change how they view our institutions. And that's about buying into this idea of what it means to be an American and a Minnesotan.

Alan Berks: 

Because their roles are often misunderstood through the lens of politics, I asked them to explain what their job actually is.

Sia Her 

I often like to start off by saying, don't feel terribly bad if whatever I say to you, still leaves you as perplexed by the end of the conversation. Because even the very body that created us in 1985, every single time - I kid you not - like every time I go in front of legislators, whether it's a committee or I'm in a one on one meeting, I'm explaining to them! It feels very much like I'm explaining to them for the first time again, what my office was created to do. And you know, those legislative visits, they're 15, 20 minutes. When you are attempting to explain to the other partner in the conversation, your role and responsibilities in this very complicated and complex enterprise, how does that time allow you to do that, right? And so when it comes to the API communities, I tend to use metaphors, because many of the languages in our various communities had that in common. So I'll say, you know, we will create it to be the bridge between state government, and the various communities that we identify as Asian Pacific Islander communities. Our job isn't to make decisions for you. Our job is to bring government officials to you and bring you to them. And in the act of bringing the two of you together, our job is to inform you about who they are and inform them about who you are. So that when you meet you meet on, you know, what would be like the space that in a Venn diagram, all of those circles have in common, right, and you recognize your differences. But you also understand that you're there because you have that something in common. And that's that shared goal, to make sure that you each have what you need in order to live lives of dignity. And that's probably the most basic explanation of the role and responsibilities of my office. It's too hard to say we're nonpartisan, because I tell you community members absolutely do not believe that a non partisan agency can exist in this incredibly polarized environment. 

Alan Berks 

So it does seem that people have a lot of confusion about what nonpartisan means. Does it mean not having an opinion? Does it mean agreeing with everybody? Does, what it what is, what is the role of nonpartisan?

Frank Kohlasch  

Well, in our agency, that's not a word we use - nonpartisan is not a term we use to describe ourselves. We don't describe ourselves as partisan either. We describe ourselves as, we're an agency, we have legislatively directed authorities, and things that we are to do, and that's what we do. To the best of our ability, we try to balance as many perspectives as possible. But we do have our authorities that we need to rest upon, because if we extend beyond those authorities, we end up in front of the judicial system, and the judicial system comes back and tells us well, you exceeded your authority, and go back and do that work again. And so we're, we're always looking for that, that opportunity to not describe ourselves partisan, nonpartisan, just we have been tasked with certain jobs to do on behalf of the State of Minnesota and Minnesotans, and we use our training and with coming from scientists and engineers, and some economists of how do we do this? And how do we do it the best way that protects as many Minnesotans and then, we find ourselves challenged, if we then we have to explain that to people who don't have the same level of scientific background or even background in government. And I was really interested in your comment of how people show up, and then they they get tired or frustrated, and they leave. And that's the real challenge that we always end up facing is how long it takes to make a change.

Alan Berks  

What should people know before they show up so that they don't turn around? How do they make, How do you make a change? Do you guys know?

Sia Her  

Again I think, I always like to preface my response by saying it depends on exactly who I'm looking at, right? Because the answer is different for members of our Hmong American community, than the answer for members of our like Chinese American community. Because each community, each group of Americans has been here in the United States for, you know, say for the Hmong community, we're approaching the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War. So the community, you know, the first family to arrive in Minnesota came in the winter of 1975. With whereas our Chinese American community, you know, many of these really well established families, you know can trace their you know ancestors back to the transcontinental railroad, right. And so their understanding of mainstream America is light years, you know, different from that of our Hmong American community. And so I, and so there's that differentiation in my mind, but when I look at the API community as a collective, the one number one answer that rises to my tongue, to your question is, I remind our community leaders, that they must agree - that when we disagree, right, we're still going to be kind and thoughtful and respectful to one another, right? Government works in the United States, because we don’t…well, in theory, we we recognize that we all have different ideas about how to get to Rome, but we know we're going to Rome, right? And so like we have to learn how to agree to disagree. That's, you know, contrary to what anybody else thinks. In my 10 year experience as Executive Director, that is, so, that one area is the most problematic in all of our communities, because we have way too many individuals and groups who are of the mind that as soon as they disagree with us, that gives them a full green light to attempt to sabotage our credibility and legitimacy in every single way possible. And we have way too many community members who believe that the end justifies the means, you know, and so if anybody if they disagree with someone, or someone disagrees with them, it's all out war, you know, and, and that is problematic. 

Alan Berks  

There's so much in there that to to unpack, but the first thing is, you guys are in a position where you take a lot of heat, because you're standing in the way, I guess, of what people think they want? 

Sia Her

Yeah.

Alan Berks

I know from other conversations that, you know, you you that there's a reason why nonpartisan, or however you want to describe the executive branch employees sort of don't often share, because because then they get attacked. Why does it work that way?

Frank Kohlasch  

I think it works that way because oftentimes, we're the ones that are on the front lines and show up. So we are the representation of government, when we come to a public meeting. They don't see their legislators doing this as much unless it's election season, maybe they'll get a few minutes with them. 

Sia Her

Yes.

Frank Kohlasch

We're the ones there all the time. We're the ones showing up. And I think we've even noticed this with frustrations with cities or counties that sometimes a state agency shows up more than the city does, for some of these, these people. So in their mind, you’re government, and then I think the challenge is we're seeing as you can just solve if you just do this. And that's kind of in my brain, in my mind, especially working in the area that I do, be wary of anybody that says, well, we just need to do this. Because that means that they're going to try to give you a simplistic solution. And they're not thinking about all of the other systems that are connected with it. And so like a ripple in a, in the in the lake, you throw that pebble in, sure that pebble will sink and that solved their problem. But now we got ripples going out to everybody. And that's the challenge that we face as systems in systems. But we're just we’re the we’re the faces and the voices of government and in communities. And that puts us right on the front lines. And sometimes we will hear things that are right in our in our lane. And these are the issues that we should be dealing with. And we we can have those conversations and we can look for ways to solve those problems. Other times we'll hear related items, but they're not our lane and we have to try to still listen. Find ways to show that we're hearing, but also deliver at times this disappointing news that I can't help you with that. Because that is a city thing or is a county thing that would need to be or it's a federal thing, and we can't fix that for you.

Alan Berks

Sia, was there more you-

Sia Her  

Yeah, I couldn’t agree with Frank more. I mean, I feel like I'm in a therapy session right now. You know, these are fully loaded questions. And I'm like 200% in agreement. So oftentimes, we're like the punching bag, you know, for frustrated taxpayers, because we are a community facing more so than legislators. And for me, that's particularly true because I'm a statewide agency. And you know, and it, in fact, was State Government's recognition that it had limited capacity to navigate these communities and for the purpose of gathering intelligence. And so it created this office, that would be its eyes and ears on the ground. And so I'm in communities all the time, like, Thursday through Sunday, like, I swear, my community leaders think I live this really like amazing life where I just get dressed up and go to gala after gala, right? But it is not that fun. It looks like that through the, you know, through the lens of a camera, but I think we're punching bags. I think. And I know that, you know, in the last 10 years like this has gotten worse and worse. The really angry partisan rhetoric out there at every level of our society, I think gives Americans no matter what background they are, they happen to be of this sense of like entitlement to, to believing that, because they're taxpayers, they can say whatever, and they can treat you know like government employees, however they want to, you know, and I so that's, that’s really, that’s very real. And then particularly in the cultural communities that we walk in, there is like, in America, in general, I think Americans take their government for granted. And don't know as much as they should, but in cultural communities, for other reasons, there is no differentiation between city government, county government, state government, federal government, don't know don't care, you know, like, if I came to you, like, you need to solve all my problems, right? And if you tell me to call this 1 800 Number, not happening, you know, you're just useless. Okay, I've had one interaction with you, you didn't solve all the problems in my life. That's it - done. Right? You know, and, and we try. So like I say, to my staff, and when I'm out in communities, I say, you know, please just call us. And the worst thing that happens is that we don't have the scope of authority to address the problem you're talking about. But we can try our very best to send you to the office that can begin to help you to address that problem. And even then, you know, I think community members go through this logic model, like decision making process. If I have to jump through three hoops of fires, I'm just gonna live with the current problem and let it be, right? And then they and then they go around and tell others well, I want to talk to the Asian Pacific Council, and they didn't do anything. And look, I told you, government was useless. Right. But the Asian council said, that's a federal issue. We can't do anything about it. I will connect you with one of the congressional member’s offices. Well, the committee member is not interested in that.

Frank Kohlasch  

If I can go back to you were asking what should people understand when approaching government? And part of it is, do you understand that all these laws, they came about for a reason. There's a story behind most of these laws that were put into place, and understanding a little bit about that history, is always helpful so that you can understand why are certain things that we can handle here in Minnesota, or certain things that are going to be at a city level, or certain things that are just going to exist at a federal level. So just be able to, so that you can talk to people, perhaps find out either find out information or find an ally that can help you with additional information. But be careful of showing up, getting frustrated the first time, and quitting and then knowing that changing - all of this change - you're going to have to run a marathon for this because you're going to have to create the story about why we need to change and then unpacking why we need to change usually means getting into why was it that way in the first place?

Alan Berks

Although to be fair to people, I think it’s dramatized in the play, like the activist comes in and they’re like “who are you?” And they don’t really want to explain to her how they…

Frank Kohlasch

Yeah, yeah.

 Sia Her  

I'm of the mind that while we have an overwhelming number of majority of activists who are really good intentioned, and whose work have brought have helped dramatically to bring about a better society, for all of us. There are some activists who I think have the saviors mentality, and they come into the Capitol, and without understanding the processes and procedures, and the rules of engagement, and the great walls of China, that executive branch agencies, and agencies like mine are up against, they'll come in, and instead of making things better, what they're there to do is agitate, and cause, you know, the riffs that are already there between state government and the people to be even greater, you know to actually magnify those riffs. 

And I say that because I mean, I've been over at the capitol for a decade, and I've seen this play out again, and again, and I understand why they behave the way they do. But if the intention is to ensure that state government continues to be effective in addressing, you know, the challenges that Minnesotans face, then we have to genuinely put in an effort to live our lives as professionals and as community members in a way that tells others that we're on the same team. You know, it's easy for people to say, See, they're all racist. They're all like, against me, you know, there's no reason for me to engage. This whole society is designed to, you know, to be against me, and so there's no reason for me to engage. And it's really difficult to to build bridges to these to some of these activists because in order for them to remain compelling, they have to, they have to continue to dish out this message that state government is the culprit is the evil doer here. And, you know, I think of my role in state government as like, you know, dodging bullets, like 360 degrees. I have to go to the Democrats, and I have to say, would you consider not assuming that all of my communities are going to turn out to vote for you, regardless of your actions? Right, and then I have to go to the Republicans and say, Would you consider assuming that not every single, like not 100% of API community members are going to vote DFL right? Like would you consider this? Would you consider that? And then, by the time I'm done asking everybody, you know, these really passive aggressive questions, I'm just like, you know, the state is not paying me enough to do this job. You know, like, and then I have to deal with like, the internal politics to one community and I like to say to policymakers, can I just choose a random nation state under my umbrella? Let's choose like Laos? Do you know there are five different ethnic groups from Laos here in the state of Minnesota? And do you know that for the entire histories, for the entire history of these five groups, they've been at war with each other and that's just five groups from one community, and there are at least sixty known, you know, countries nations under my umbrella, like seriously, right? Like, that's a lot of politics. I'm not even talking about partisan. That's just human politics and, you know, historical socio-political lived experiences that I have to navigate. And I absolutely know that when I do the math, the state is paying me two pennies per hour to do the work that I'm doing.

Frank Kohlasch  

One thing that I don't think we quite got is having activists or people that want to make change, work with the state agencies in a way that can be constructive and creative, and move forward. Because it's, to me, it's a giant machine. We know how the machine works, the way it was built, and we are probably sitting here going this machine's doing okay. But it's not doing what it should be doing in 2023. It's doing what it was designed to do in 1973. How do we have conversations with people that want to make changes so that we can explain how the machine works and where the gears are that we should change, and then get that in front of the legislators that are also interested in making that change. So that we're creating the blueprints for a new machine that does what we would like it to do, rather than assuming that if we throw this extra thing on, on the side of the machine, it's going to fix it. And sometimes that it can grind the gear, sometimes it can help, but it's really looking at the opportunity that exists with the faces of government that they experience. Many of us want to look for ways to do things better to achieve better outcomes for Minnesota.

Alan Berks  

I know that I can call my legislator, and I know you might show up at a town hall. But I can just call you up and have a conversation about how we're gonna, you know, affect legislation. Is that allowed?

Frank Kohlasch 

Yeah, because we start out with what what is the issue that that's of concern, and we can talk through what is it that is your issue? And how does it relate to what we can do, what we can't do? Sometimes we might be able to fix that. Sometimes we might also be recognizing in some spectrum or some roadway to have along the same realization that you're at that this isn't working exactly the way it should be. We also don't have the direct sense of what's the experience then for you living in that community to understand well, then how can we change it? And, you know, it's it's not, it may not come down to us figuring out a big legislative change, because it could be a process change that we can make.

Alan Berks  

No, I'm embarrassed to say that even though I know lots about state government now that I thought that there was a kind of wall around the executive agencies, in which and then they show up when they need to do something, and they may have a town hall in order to explain the thing they're going to do. But I didn't realize that you can consider yourself accessible to the community. 

Frank Kohlasch

Absolutely. And, yeah.

Sia Her  

Yeah. I have to say during Governor Dayton’s and Governor Walz’s administrations our commissioners, assistant commissioners, and, you know, like, middle management, I mean, I, they, they've been outstanding. Because they understand that being out there, you know, is incredibly critical to their ability to deliver on their duties. Yeah, you know I think we spend too much of our time talking about what's not working. Minnesota is home to the largest urban concentration of Hmong Americans. Minnesota is only second behind California in terms of the largest Hmong American community, you know, and that begs the question why? And the answer is that this community in spite of the tundra like winters, right, this community has matured and flourished like no other Hmong ancestry community in the world. In the world. It doesn't matter if you go to the mountains of China, or California, or if you go into the jungles of Laos, everybody knows Minnesota. Everybody has heard of Minnesota. St. Paul, Minnesota is the city on the hill for the Hmong diaspora. Because the conditions have been made right here that have allowed refugees who arrived in this country and in this state with nothing but the clothes on their back, to build wealth and to overcome the circumstances that refugees find themselves here with, right and so like, I, I would hope that we would do ourselves a favor by talking about some of the things that have worked. We have some of the most, effective public policies when it comes to our E through 12 system. That's why our Karen community is so large here in the state of Minnesota. They move here from California, Texas, New York, because here we had the LEPS act, you know, the Limited English Proficiency Statute, which allows for young adults to remain in the E-12 system until age 21. Right, whereas in other states, they age out at age 18. 

And one of my pet peeves with the legislature is, you know, to your question about, so I can just call my legislator and come in to talk with him or her about my issue? The answer is yes and no. And it depends on what time you're calling them, right? Because for the most part, if you call them once session has started, you get 15 minutes. And like I said, you know, like one of the most frustrating facts for our community members, when API Day at the Capitol comes around is, why am I going to come? You know, like, I'm going to make this long trek trip from Marshall, Minnesota, right? Like three hours. I’m gonna come for like a three hour event. And in that event, I'm going to have like, 15 minutes with a legislator, right? My issues are complex, how is that legislator going to understand, you know? So like, no, not coming. And then on the other hand, community members feel like an hour's worth of time to have a conversation about a topic is what constitutes a meaningful conversation. 

But we know that that's not necessarily the case, as well. And so I think it's that, you know, that's just the nature of the beast right now. And when you tell people that they have 15 minutes to visit with a legislator that's such a major turnoff, right? Because they're talking about issues that have a direct impact on their ability to put bread on the table, pay for the roof over their head. And so when you say to them 15 minutes, I mean, like, they're not interested in what comes after you say 15 minutes worth of a visit. You know, we recognize that that's a point of frustration for the average Minnesotan, but especially for those who may not necessarily engage with state government or with their legislative members on a regular basis, and feel like when they do it's because they've considered all of their options. And this is like the last option, right? And they're going out of their way to miss work and to, you know, find babysitters, you know, childcare in order for them to get to the Capitol. 

Alan Berks  

Yeah. What do you wish somebody had told you, then that you would that you would want to pass on somebody new what what would have been helpful to hear at that time?

Frank Kohlasch 

Well, what I wish they would have told me and what I would pass along to new employees is you have to be comfortable with uncertainty. And you have to be comfortable with a marathon of looking at making changes and making a difference. Because that's what it will take. If you come in and we kind of live in an IT venture capital world where we're going to take the world by storm with this thing, and it's going to change in two years. That's not how - that’s not the timelines that we work on. Sometimes things can happen very rapidly. But usually, when you peel back the layers, you see, it's because people have been working on this for a very long time and gathering the information and building the relationships and finding out what will work and then finding out what's not going to work and building a big enough coalition that it starts to make sense. And you get the blueprint for the new machine that we're going to build, and it's going to take a while. And if that's not in your makeup, then you can still be successful, but you will be probably more comfortable in certain roles in state government where you don't have to deal with managing that change, where you're just doing the work of the machine. But if you really want to change the machine and make it work, it's going to be a ton of uncertainty, it's going to be a ton of time, and it's going to be sometimes one step forward, four steps back, and then a leap back to where you were, and then finding uncommon allies, and moving forward, but it's always going to be keeping your ears open. And so you know back to our previous conversation of understanding that we have to learn from the people who live the experience on the ground. Because when we hear that we can think about how do I have to change my machine that was built on blueprints from 50, 40, 30 years ago to represent what we expect now, and the problems that we're facing now. And you could find those solutions. It's just you have to have the patience to deal with the uncertainty and be willing to listen and be creative.

Alan Berks  

That's great. What do you wish?

Sia Her  

Alan I feel like that question could be, like, slightly reworded. And then like, be a question about my braces, you know, like, I had braces, and I swear, if I had known how painful it was going to be, I would have never opted for braces from in the beginning. You know, like, I didn't know until they were trying to pull my lower jaw out and my upper jaw back how painful it was gonna be. And that's kind of sometimes how I think about my job. But I, you know, like in a brutally honest manner, I think my answer to your question is, you have to be willing to die, you know, deaths of innocence, like again and again and again. You know, like, like, for me, I came into the system Absolutely, like, convinced about the role of government in the lives of people. I mean, my parents escaped their native country because of communism, you know. They escaped, while like, like 99% of their respective family members either fell in the war, or were left behind. You know, I came into state government believing that the Democrats stand for this, the Republicans stand for this, you know, I studied Abe Lincoln and George Washington and, and I came in like, a total soldier conviction and then 10 years in state government. I've seen like the same legislator dishing out different messages depending on who's in the audience. And I've thought to myself how hypocritical! Like, it's kind of like serving in the military, I think about my brother and my other family members. Like if you were to take a headshot of me year after year or like, no even more nuanced than that, like pre-session, year one, post session year one, pre-session year two, like you would see that I have aged dramatically, and I no longer have this look of like naivete and eternal optimism. 

Alan Berks 

And yet you were just talking about the positive things that government does.

Sia Her  

I mean, I give myself pep talks all the time, in order to continue to do my work, because there's so much about my work that speaks to my heart, right? The work that I do in state government is the intersection of everything I've ever dreamed about, you know, it meets my intellectual, my emotional, my psychological and my spiritual needs as a Hmong American who came to the States as a refugee. So, so there's that. But I just think you, you have to be willing to see things to accept things that you might have not ever thought about. And then you have to get up again the next day, and still try to find reasons to believe in some of the same players. And in a system that you feel is incredibly flawed. But you know, having been elsewhere in other parts of the world, right, seeing images of wars in other parts of the world you still believe that no matter how flawed we are, here we are, this is still the best system, this is still one of the best places to be.

Leah Cooper

 I love how Sia is so honest, and sometimes seems to be so upset, but then also so grateful and sort of angrily optimistic–if that’s a thing.

Alan Berks

 It’s definitely part of the theme: “It’s complicated.” At the end of our first episode, I got super excited about an elaborate metaphor of a machine that works but we don’t know how, which button to push or lever to pull, or what it does. And now we have Frank also using a metaphor of a machine but the machine was built for a different time and it works correctly, but for the wrong outcomes. 

Leah Cooper

Meanwhile, they point out that the public doesn’t want to have anything to do with complex machinery like that. So often they want things to be simple. Sia talks about a 1-800 number for answers to everything.

Alan Berks

Which I think we can all agree would be fantastic, if it were possible. No question about it. But since it isn’t possible, how does the complex machine get rebuilt to work better? I thought the idea that Frank mentioned there is a story behind every law was really fascinating. As a theater person, as a writer actually, I can totally see how hard it is to unwind a story. Like you can strike a few words from a statute, you can just edit the thing. But a whole story. . . once you start pulling on one thread the whole thing starts to fall apart. 

Leah Cooper

Which leads deeper into the question of what the best approach to making change really is. Short term agitation or long-term coalition building. Sia and Frank certainly prefer the more amenable approach because they feel they are much more accessible to the public than the public understands. They don’t need to be yelled at; they’re doing their best.

Alan Berks

Yeah. I think that came through loud and clear, the emotional toll of their roles in state government when the partisan rhetoric is always so heated. These are two state workers that most people wouldn’t even meet yet they feel like they’re “dodging bullets,” like they’re in a war zone.

Leah Cooper

 In our next episode, we’ll explore where and why that heated rhetoric comes out–by exploring something as seemingly innocuous yet fully controversial as the art and architecture of the Capitol. 

Alan Berks 

Our guests will be Kate Beane, Executive Director of the Minnesota Museum of American Art. 

Kate Beane

There is a limited amount of space within the Capitol complex. And there are a lot of items that take up a lot of space. And there are a lot of us that don't get enough space, and we need to fight for that space. And that's a problem. But I think we're getting to a point where there are more and more of us coming into work at the Capitol where we're trying to pave the way so that there's more space for all of us.

Leah Cooper

And Paul Mandell, former Executive Secretary of the Capitol Area Architecture and Planning Board–which is an agency that actually has the authority to block any new building in the capitol area that they feel doesn’t conform to the spirit of the Capitol.

Paul Mandell

We were trying to get money to fix the Capitol. It was leaking, it was stone was falling off the building. And I made this comment to one of the many people that cover news articles at the Capitol. They said, Would you go on record? And I said, well yeah, it’s the truth. You know, we already had the scaffolding up and reinforced under this one area where there was a huge piece of marble that was broken and could fall. And the next day I came and everyone's like, Oh, God, Paul, you. The commissioner is looking for you. And you are, the commissioner’s looking for you. Your name has really been banded around this morning, I go, I don't work for them. And I told the truth. 

Alan Berks

We’d like to leave this episode with a little excerpt from the scene in the play that inspired this conversation.

ANGELA

No Justice! No Peace! No Justice! No Peace! Are you an ally?

EXPERT

Uh, um, uh. I’m an expert on environmental policy. I can’t pay attention to every issue. I’m sorry. Understanding this one issue is hard enough. Its keeping the water clean—and, um, it’s mostly not about partisan politics actually. We just keep the state running.

ADVOCATE (stepping forward, to ANGELA)

I’ve been working on these issues all my life from the outside, as an activist, like you. I’m an advocate. Don’t take it personally. Politics doesn’t have feelings. Or logic. It’s slow work. You cry a little, and then you have to get a little numb to the realities at the Capitol.

ANGELA (to EVERYONE)

It sounds to me like you’re all basically saying that you don’t care that this crazy new governor gets elected or that the system was built to be unfair to people like me. You act like it's business as usual.

(EVERYONE stops and looks.)

CHORUS (together)

If I didn’t care, would I put up with the regular abuse?

Leah Cooper and Alan Berks:

You’ve been listening to “Our House” 


Leah Cooper:

 I’m Leah Cooper

Alan Berks:

I’m Alan Berks - “Our House '' is a podcast of Wonderlust Productions. Our production assistant is Frances Matejcek, our editor is Marianne Combs, and our sound designer and audio engineer is Peter Morrow with additional help from Rachel Briese. Music was composed by Becky Dale. Lyrics by myself and Becky Dale. For detailed credits on the making and performing of the play and the original cast, visit our website at wlproductions.o-r-g

Leah Cooper

 The professional actors you heard in this episode were LaTanya Boone, Adam Whisner, Laurel Armstrong, and Bradley Greenwald, Megan Kim, and Ernest Briggs. 

Alan Berks

Big thanks to our partners and supporters who have made this podcast possible, including the Minnesota Humanities Center, Eastside Freedom Library, In Progress Studios, MinnPost, The Theater of Public Policy, and the Elmer L. and Eleanor J. Andersen Foundation. See the thank-you page on our website for a full list of the donors and foundations who make all of our work possible.

Leah Cooper

Thanks for listening!

In an awful situation

You want people who are patient

Who will work together all hands on deck

CHORUS

To build a bridge of hope and respect

For you..