Citlali Fabián: Creating Meaningful Portraits Through Collaboration

Mexican visual artist and photographer Citlali Fabián joins Angela Nicholson to discuss how trust, patience and collaboration can transform the portrait-making process.

Citlali grew up in Oaxaca, where her father ran a photo printing shop. Watching people bring in their film and return to collect their photographs gave her an early understanding of photography as an extension of memory. Her grandmother’s careful approach to being photographed also showed her how much meaning a single image can hold for future generations.

As Citlali’s interest developed, she began exploring photography as a way to tell stories about indigenous identity, migration, family and community. Her work places the people she photographs at the centre of the creative process, giving them an active role in deciding how they are represented.

This approach is particularly important in Bilha: Stories of My Sisters, the series that earned Citlali the title of Photographer of the Year at the 2026 Sony World Photography Awards. Created with women from her region, the project celebrates people whose work supports their communities and inspires younger generations.

Citlali explains how she shared contact sheets with each participant, invited them to help select their portrait and developed the final illustrations through conversation and feedback. She also discusses the importance of honouring someone’s decision when their preferred image differs from the photographer’s choice.

During the conversation, Citlali reflects on imposter syndrome, indigenous representation and the value of seeking guidance from people you trust. She also explains why photographers should resist pressure to produce work quickly and focus instead on creating something meaningful.

It is a thoughtful conversation about portrait photography, identity and the responsibility that comes with telling someone else’s story.

Takeaways

1. Build trust before reaching for the camera
   Meaningful portraits often begin with conversation. Taking time to understand someone can reveal the details, places and experiences that matter most to them.
2. Include people in how they are represented
   A photographer may prefer one image but the person in the portrait may feel differently. Collaboration can produce work that feels both visually strong and personally truthful.
3. Do not rush the creative process
   Good work does not always arrive quickly. Allowing ideas to develop can lead to stronger images and more thoughtful decisions.
4. Look closely at the stories around you
   Photographers often overlook familiar people, places and experiences. Personal stories can offer a distinctive perspective that nobody else can provide.
5. Ask trusted people for guidance
   Imposter syndrome can make it difficult to recognise the value of your work. Constructive support from a teacher, mentor or fellow photographer can help you move forward.
6. Protect your values and wellbeing
   Not every opportunity is fair or worthwhile. It is acceptable to decline work that does not respect your time, values or contribution.

Connect with Citlali
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Transcript

0:05

Something that I have learned the hard way is that don't don't pressure yourself to produce fast but take the time to produce your best because at the end you will see the the result, you know, like it is it is not about quantity but quality. Hello and welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I speak to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them and how they got to where they are now. Today our guest is Citlali Fabián, a visual artist and photographer from Mexico. Her work explores indigenous identity, migration and community through deeply personal storytelling. In 2026, she was named Photographer of the Year at the Sony World Photography Awards for her powerful series, Bilha Stories of My Sisters. Hi, Citlali thank you so much for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast. It's fabulous to have the opportunity to chat with you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here talking with you. Oh thank you. Can we start by hearing a little bit about your background and what was it that first attracted you to photography? well I I come from a, my background is not like the the like related to arts or any visual creativity, you know, like it is kind of ~ for me a very natural way how I ended being interested in photography. when I was a kid my dad started a business and it turns out this business was related to photography. He opened photo printing shop in Oaxaca where I'm from in the south of Mexico. And for me that the first ~ interaction to photography was actually, you know, like when people was coming with their film to develop. So it was just like very interesting to me to understand also how photography, the medium, analogic medium worked, you know, like when when you needed to develop your your rolls when it was just not like the inmediacy that we live nowadays, like it was not like ~ now photography is everywhere, right? Like you have it like literally in the in the in your hand. Like it's it's on your phone. But ~ yeah, like not that long ago I feel a bit old when I'm saying this. not that long ago, we really needed ~ professionals to help us to treasure those memories, to to yeah, being able to contact us, make make that connection with photography. It wasn't not as as accessible as i it is now. So Just to respond to your question, I I ~ came close to photography by helping in my family business, by receiving the the film, developing and understanding that photography was working as an extension of their memories, you know, like it is very interesting to me to understand very ~ very well this a very early age how how important ~ was And is photography, right? Like and how yeah, like it was ~ just like this precio precious moment when they came to collect and see what they were able to treasure to capture from from her from their experiences. So that's how I got interested in photography. as I don't know the word in English. We call it officio in Spanish. Like you know like these jobs that require a lot of hands on to master it. So it was more about that. It wasn't as artistic approach. It was like a job. like it is a baker, like it is, you know, like someone that actually works with their hands. It was that that first ~ interaction to photography and how I became interested. And then I was lucky to grow up in one of the most~ cultural diverse cities in in Mexico. The south of Mexico is lucky to luckily to me,~ very prolific on museums, galleries, artists, ~ artists working through to to for their communities to make art accessible. So in this way I was able to take a few first workshops in my local ~ museum to understand a bit of the principles of photography, to understand that i it was also more than capturing ~ birthdays and weddings, you can could also tell amazing stories and bring people closer to your world through images. So yeah, that's a bit like ~ in short how I came interested ~ with photography. That's really interesting because I hear from a lot of people who got interested in photography because a parent or family member had a camera and they were into photography, but yours is quite different because you were looking at the end product a lot. You you're seeing lots of people coming in and sharing that, well, not sharing the images with everybody, but effectively sharing them with you. So you could see all of the things they were photographing and all their inspirations. Yes, absolutely. And and you know like that's why why I feel like I I kind of understand also why for example from my background, I'm I'm an indigenous from Mexico. And also we are not only talking about like the the this this generation has have access to create images for the first time like in a very easy way because it's still not that accessible. Like equipment is really expensive, right? But a camera is you can get a camera. But back then like thinking about my grandmother and their relation with was something precious, you know, like it was a moment to to to think as a as a serious moment. She showed me this importance of the act of being photographed and how people can treasure it. You know, like for her when I asked her for a photo, she always took the time to comb her hair, change her clothes. Like it was a moment. And also she could she could also very easily say, No, I'm I'm I'm busy right now, right? But she understood like in a way that I later understood. Like this is also a memory for my children, for my grandchildren. Yeah, like w the photos we have of my grandmother in in my ~ my parents' house are the ones that I l last take from from her. So in a way I feel like yeah, like this is~ a very different relationship than n now we have to photography. Now we do like the silly ~ duck face or you know, like it is just not like yeah, like I I not not not nothing against that but It was just like a very different approach from their generation to understanding that it wasn't accessible. It was once in a time once in a lifetime sometimes. Her her only memory of her or of her mom comes from a very blurry photo that I I assume is a Kodak one photo, you like this one that in a circle.~ and Mm-hmm. that's the only memory she has of her. Like that's also like a beer very different relation that we have two photography then we have like we have like I have lots of photograph photographies of my of my daughter. But I feel really bad because I haven't print that many, you know, like and it's like w I have lots of them in the cloud somewhere, like in the space, I don't know, like consuming a lot of resources as well. And in a way I'm like, I should you not like just like also understand like the value of the print of the so it was like I think it in in this way make me understand also like photography is an important object as And yeah, like can carry lots of stories. What age were you when you first got a camera? The first time I got a camera, I was having around fifteen, sixteen years old. As I said, like I I grew up in a in a photo printing shop. Mmm. So I I bet it was earlier than that because I bet my dad asked me to take, you know, like ID photos. I bet like I I don't have like I I have memories of me doing it later. But or or that I ask him to help because that's also what kids do, you know, like but Mm-hmm. My first vivid memory was when I was ~ fi fifteen, sixteen years old, sixteen probably, when I was in a high school in in Mexico and I wanted to take photos of my mates in in in school. Like really those photos are when I see them they are so cute, like in the way like you can see like just teenagers hang out ha hanging up and yeah, like And I guess it didn't cost you much or anything perhaps to get the film's process because your dad could do it. Or you could do it yourself probably. I could do it myself. That that was the beauty. Like yeah, like Yeah. and and also film wasn't as expensive as as as it is now nowadays. Like Mm. he wouldn't bother to for me to take some from the th there were even cans. Like there are still cans, you know, like with these like meters and meters of of of film. And I remember because a lot of social event photographers came to his shop to get materials as well. I remember Mm-hmm. me doing those rewinding the the I don't know how you call it cassette, like the the the yeah, to to to sell more and I remember like, okay, I'll grab something for myself, you know, like it's it it was so so accessi I was so lucky, you know, like and as I say I I didn't start with aspirations of becoming a documentary photographer or an art photographer, anything like that. It was just more I was definitely much more influenced by the social event photographers around me. So how did you develop that aspiration to become a social photographer, a documentary photographer? Over time I guess. ~ as I said, like I was lucky and a lot very lucky also to grow up in in a city that ~ was just ~ encouraging a lot of ~ their their locals to get into arts, get into classes. There is a place called the Photographic Center Alvarez Bravo in my city, ~ founded by a very famous Mexican photographer photographer, sorry. Very famous painter. He also practiced photography. He said that in an interview that he was painting because he couldn't do good photography, so he wanted to do photograph photography but he wasn't good enough. But he was ~ extremely talented artist, Francisco Toledo. He was a force in our city to open spaces to yeah, make art and photography accessible to everyone. So He led led with a group of ph local photographers to open a space where people me could come to take workshops and learn. it was just like a very it was a very i it is a very unique space, you know, like it has a very big ~ library just dedicated to photography, like three rooms of just photography books and it was just amazing. It was just amazing to be a teenager that was able to, you know, like walk in her streets and being able to to come to this place and make other friends that were interested in photography and have the chance to meet ~ photographers from Mexico who came there to teach. about their experiences, about their way to making photography. And that's when I understood that there were other types of photography to see. And I think also one of the first shows I saw in that ~ museum included one photo from my from my town, from the town where my parents are from, where the from my my diaspora is from. So for me was that a bit shocking because I have never seen that photo before. It's a photo from Lola Álvarez Bravo that was included for this show.~ I I I forgot the name of this very important show in MOMA ~ Yeah. but included like lots of photographers from the world. And one of the photos from Mexico was from Lola Álvarez Bravo and was this photo. And I learned that that a lot of other photographers have came to my village to take photos. In that moment I really didn't think of take photos of my diaspora, but definitely something moved inside me to think, I didn't think I could do that type of photography as well. And yeah, I I think co joining this space helped me to understand that. It also overlap another very important social time in in the the city I'm from it was 2006 and it was a social social movement in in Oaxaca after repression from the police to teachers ~ syndicate of teachers in Oaxaca and that really created a chaotic environment in Oaxaca. It was a lot of violent protest and this place it was in the center where I'm a block away, all this was happening. And also that made me feel and understand the relevance of photography, you know, like because there were also photographers w who were working on~ reporting about this this this moment historic moment in in our lives. And I yeah, I was just like very, very It opened my mind, you know, it like everything that was happening around me opened my mind about the power of photography, about all the different ways that you could explore photography and what photography can offer to the world and to yourself as well. And what you could offer also. So it was just just like a lot of things happening in the moment that when I was just understanding the power and the my interest in photography was just really expanding. So a lot of your projects are about other people's stories. What was your first project like that? How did you start down that path? I think I think my projects in a way connect with with myself that there are like that I have both both of them because for example my the first series I feel like I finished it was the Mestiza series when I was working with other friends in a different way than this last series. Like I think in a way there are a lot of resemblances be between Mestiza and Bilha. Like it is like I a really full journey in there. But from there I was already exploring the idea of self-representation. I was already working on the idea of the power that that~ photography holds and how in a way to share it or find a way that the s the people that ~ sit in front of the camera feel more comfortable or feel more empowered or feel like they are not being their images their images is not being taken from them. You know, like it is just like for me there already all those things were to feel like ~ are happening. But obviously like this project is like almost ten no eight years ago when I f like and it's a long part. Like I I I'm telling you my beginnings in photography, like my interest in interested in 2006, but I really didn't finish anything anything t t till till 18, 2018. So it's a long, long path, right? So definitely I was just like, you know, like understanding and learning, learning, learning a lot about different approaches, different ways of doing photography, the relevance of photography in everyone's life. And yeah, like I I had a lot of of of contradictory questions to to ask me and yeah I feel like I started from something that it was like bothering me or making me think or question something and then finding people that could join me in this journey to answer or give an answer to those questions that I was just like verb reverberating in my brain. So in this sense I think in this in these two things, Bilha and Mestiza are kind of in the same path. with other projects that I've been doing because I it is not also that I produce a lot of projects. Like I think I've had like four or five projects that I feel like ~ these are actually projects that I feel like I are are are are not finished but circle. Like they have a they have ~ a a a a beginning and a clear path, you know? and when Ben'n Yalhalhj the project ~ from Yalálag yes I'm portraying in the documentary part of my family and that was from the beginning the the goal to portray my family. But I for example I haven't released that many photos of me with my family, right? Like those are photos that I haven't really put ~ around ~ around like openly. Obviously in a in some point I will I will ~ show them, you know, like but yeah like on my on my website you cannot see like the full spectrum of of all the all the project. And in that project itself I work also with ~ photography objects, you know like ~ with embroidery, scratching plates. Like it was just like maybe it wasn't directly in a lot of them I appear actually. But that those those images definitely were trying to reflect in something more about my process and my way of seeing also my own culture and how to present it to to to in a way that it is ~ how to present it visually. That's it. but yeah, like I think I I when I photograph when I photograph I don't I try to understand that and to try to understand it and put myself into the per the person that I'm asking for a photo. You know, like nowadays, like ~ also that's something that really scares me in a way like you put a photo on online and you lost completely the track of it. Like it is like it can it can go in so many directions and it's a bit a bit You know, like it's a bit scary, like ~ Yeah, you don't know where where your beautiful face is gonna end and sometimes not all the people also s like feel fine about it. And y you also need You mean the subjects or the viewers? subjects I feel. Yeah. Yep. huh. Okay.~ and and what I'm trying is always like to you know like ~ if I heard like the the the photos are gonna the photos of a a a person that ~ appears in the photo is gonna be in in I don't know,~ for example now now it's in in Arles the the part of the photos and~ look your photo is i is gonna be there and you know like trying trying a bit yeah that part like to to To share. Yeah, yeah, can understand that because you put a lot of work into it and then you suddenly think, what if they don't like that picture or they don't want it in this exhibition? You know, Yeah, absolutely. it's a concern. It might be that they say, great, thank you, you know, but that moment you have a concern about it, I can understand. Yeah, and well well, c with ~ with Bilha I think i I I I I'm really shocked about like how yeah, like just surprise, you know, like in a good way how it has been received and yeah, like all the places that it has been visited. That's that's amazing. And I hope like also can ~ inspire other other girls and other women to to see their their peers and the people that are around there doing amazing stuff because that's the that's the reality actually. Like w there is a lot of good people around us and like ~ it is just amazing to to just showcase a bit of their amazing work and the amazing things they are doing. And sometimes like we w like yeah, we don't take the time to just acknowledge that. You know, like there are a lot of unnamed heroes around us and That's beauty. That's really like amazing and gives me a lot of hope when, you know, like we see a world like in flames like like we're seeing right now. Yeah. Earlier this year, you were named of the Year in the Sony World Photography Awards. Could you tell us a bit about that particular project? Yes, of course. well Bilha is a project Bilha Stories of My Sisters is a project that started in 2024 to conceptualize the idea, to understand Mm-hmm. what I wanted to do and it actually started while I was ~ reading a book to my daughter. And you know, like these stories of amazing women in the world and I was just thinking of all the incredible women in from my region that are doing the things for the girls in our communities or for the communities itself and how how to make something accessible for the kids in my region. So ~ it started like that, it started like an idea.~ I had a year to take photos to understand what I wanted to do, to first at all reach out to the women that I was interested to collaborate in and to understand what I want what I wanted to do with them and if they Mm-hmm. want it and if they wanted to take part. So I I did a list of f eight women that I knew that they were were doing amazing stuff in my region. In that moment I was living in in Mexico. We started with a video call. and I ~ I shared the idea and they were very very~ positive and agreed to participate. and one thing that I remember was very important at that moment, it was like if they feel like there was anyone that they w wanted to include to please share the name and I will reach out to them. At the end I was able to make twelve portraits for for this series. It was a bit complicated because it was in the span of a year to take just twelve portraits, which doesn't sound that much, but you know like Mm-hmm. when you when you try to reach out to people that are you know that they are very busy traveling to different places, doing a lot of stuff, like you don't see them stop. It's one one of those ones that you don't see them stop and to just match your times to actually find find the time to to give you half of the day for making a photo was like a big challenge. And then it came the pick picking the photo, what you were mentioning, what if they don't like the photo? And this is very interesting and very important to me with this project. because while while for choosing the photo, I try to involve them as much as possible. And what I mean for this, I s I shoot all this project in film. And what I was doing is scan the contact sheet and share a contact sheet with them. When I was sharing this contact sheet, I obviously was like, okay, this is my favorite, this is my favorite, this is my favorite and see if if one of them were their favorites as well. And normally we ended they went we ended choosing between three to five photos to to for me to work and edit and then present them to him them like edited and ready to work the next layer on them. And this this sounds really fast when you talk about it. But you know like processing an image on in the computer takes time. sometimes speaking to someone over any any platform sometimes it takes forever, especially if you're a busy person, sometimes like you wait a a week for an email response, you know, like and and that happened as well with them. Like that happened as well with them. And yeah, like it was just like sending photos, expecting for their their response, seeing which ones they like mo the most. And from there, pick one. Pick one photo that you feel represents you, that you feel happy with, and that's the photo I'm gonna work to do or collaborative intervention in the photo. And then was another month or more about sharing photos, sharing sketches of of the ideas to put in the photo. There were some ones that there were like very fast, you know, like it was really fluid the way that we Mm-hmm. were exchanging and the the idea came very fast. And there there were others that it was just like I don't know why we are stuck in this but we we i i i i it it it has taken time for sure with some of them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So yeah it it ha it was a pro a project that I I didn't finish like fast if if you say so like yeah I it took me over a year to to finish and actually I'm still working in in three images to just release the the full project. Something that I have learned the hard way is that don't don't pressure yourself to produce fast but take the time to produce your best because at the end you will see the the result, you know, like it is it is not about quantity but quality. Yeah. Were there any instances where there was a picture or you said to them, these are my three favorites and they insisted on you using another one? Yeah. Were you of course. Of course. There are able to rest with that? Was that okay? You know, like I need to honor what I said when I Mm-hmm. when I first got it with them. And Yeah, as a as a photographer, as a visual person, you know which image is stronger. But if they don't feel it represents them, why pursue to using that image? And this project really gave me that chance to to say to back up and say, Okay, if you don't like it, I will take it and whatever you want. Yeah. And It's very interesting because I I had finished the image of one of them and wan when it was already released with the project and and all and all that. She said like I don't know if it is possible but I would like if po if it's possible because the the idea for this project is to produce a book. And Mm-hmm. she asked me if I could change the image for the book. And she explained me why. I understand I I heard too her motives and I think they are very valid. And we're gonna change the image for the final book and Okay.~ yeah, she was saying about like sorry for delaying or whatever and it's like Mm-hmm. it's part of the process, right? Like in and Yeah. as I said, like I I really hope I can I can I can honor my my my word with them and I can be true to what I what I I offer them. I I feel really bad that I've been working in this project for so long and I haven't published the book. But the project itself is just going like very, very slow. Like so, yeah. I'm I'm Yeah. What about, because you embellish the images, don't you? Do you scratch the emotion? I I work on I work on because of the of the nature of the project, because of how I would have loved to do it manually, like do the interventions manually, but it wasn't im it wasn't possible for this one because I needed their approval on the photo. And doing correction over the photo was gonna be impossible so Mm. For this one in particular I decided to do all the interventions digitally. And Okay, yeah. yeah, I I I did d digital illustrations over them. Okay, I mean, that's quite detailed as well, but I understand why you would go down that route because if you said they're of the project and they have input, then you have to honor that. And I think particularly if you're saying, I want to represent you, you can't then say,~ no, no, this represents you better than that does because they're Yeah. Exactly. the person who knows. Who know their s themselves better than themselves. Like you know yourself like better than anyone. but yeah. Did you at any point during the production of the project have the Sony World Photography Awards in your mind as a goal or Not at all. Not no, no? at all. I I'm gonna be completely honest to you. Mm-hmm. I heard about them last year. I I unfortunately haven't heard about them But what it really catch my eye was that they allow manipulation on the photo. Mm. And a lot of photography contest doesn't. Mm. does d don't don't offer you that chance. And yeah, when I saw my photos I was like okay like a a a a good friend of me t told me why I wouldn't ~ why wh why not to share them there. And I was like, but it's an ~ I haven't finished the project and you know like i I really want to do the book first and blah blah blah blah blah and and I I I I was feeling like like in a way like it wasn't I really felt like the imposter syndrome there. Like I shouldn't. Uh-huh. And yeah, you know like I Wow. I hope you brought your friend a drink. I haven't seen her 'cause she lives in Peru, but Okay. but definitely she will come to London soon and I will definitely e i get Yeah. her get her out for sure. Mm-hmm. I mean, those images in the exhibition, the women all looked incredibly powerful. It was beautiful work as well. How did you feel when your name was read out as the overall winner? Couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. You know, like there was this this moment when they show this slide and I see a glimpse of my photos on the big screen and I was like Mm-hmm. I was just like feeling like a a drop Yeah. something like a w water drop on me or something like that. I was just like grabbing myself to the to the table. Yeah, and the room went wild as well, didn't it? Yeah, definitely. And I I couldn't believe it. It wa it is Mm-hmm. really for me it's very warm in my heart because in a way, my peers from Latin America there w this year w we were three finalists from Latin America and they were always like from the from day one when we arrived You are gonna get it. Like they they they they never doubted. They never doubted and they were always supporting supporting that, you know, like and they were like, You're gonna get it like Yes Lady. I don't know I don't know why you're lying to us, but you're gonna get They thought you knew. Yeah, like I was like no, no, no, no I I I swear I I d I I I don't know, you know, like it would be amazing, but like all the word like their words are also very powerful. and beautiful and I was just like really happy to Mm. to see them and also like I I it was just a very powerful moment for for us to share because we have known each other I think for at least six years or something like that. Like we started in this in this but kind of and this at the same Hmm. time in this in this career and it was just beautiful to to see them there, to meet with them again there. And yeah. Yeah, makes it extra special when you share it, doesn't it? Definitely, definitely. So I think that's a really good time to go to six from SheClicks. I've got 10 questions from SheClickers. I would like you to answer six of them please by picking numbers from one to 10 at random. So which would you like as your first number, please? Five Number five. How do you determine the stitches or embellishments you will make? Do you take your photographs with them in mind or are they a response to your photography or your photograph? That question's from Liz. Well, it really depends on the photo because not all Mm-hmm. all the well depending on the project because for example for the the actual embroidery that pieces that I have done, everything works around an idea that I already have~ conceptualized. I had a sketch and I had like an Mm-hmm. idea of what I wanted to represent in that particular embroidery piece, which actually might be in Somerset House. Spoiler alert. This year.~ fantastic. So, it really depends, you know, like on on on what kind of idea I'm working with. In the in the particular case of Bilha, there weren't there are a few ones that look like embroidery but actually are digital in illustrations. And on those ones I work a lot with the idea we have to conceptualize but also the dynamics in the photo. That's why also it was hard because not all the illustrations work all the time, right? Like if you need to see how you are gonna accommodate them, how are it gonna Mm-hmm. be balance and they're gonna they are not gonna fight because that was that the the three images that I have left to finish is because I feel they are fighting a lot you know like the illustration with the with the photo itself photo and illustration are not dancing together so yeah like I it depends it depends a lot on what what is the piece I'm working? If it's something that I already had like previously work and sometimes it's okay to be a bit more spontaneous and do something more more ~ that you are feeling with the movement of the needle but it's it's actually very rare. Like I have like I I want to do this and I'm focused on that idea. Rather than digitally that when you can erase actually I didn't like it that much here. It's gonna work more if I work a bit more expanded the line and Yeah, depends a lot on on that. Okay, can I have your second number please? four. Number four, how long do you spend getting to know some of your subjects before you photograph them? I mean, you said some of them were family in the past, so probably you knew them a long time, but some of the other people.~ i I s also like it it really depends on what I'm working with. On personal Uh-huh. projects I feel like the conversations can can start like weeks in advance. And you know, like you have a lot of conversation on online or over chats and~ in the particular project of Bilha because they live in different places in Oaxaca or Mexico. Traveling to them was the chance also to spending a few good hours or days with them. And everything in the photo I think it is more about the conversations we have previously in the photo. And that also allowed me the idea of ~ this actually she said this it was important to her. Like for example Mitzi. She's an environmental activist. She has an I think that's the most one of the most known photos of the series, the one where Mitzi is like with her hand Yeah. at at the at the to to the sky. And we were talking about about that and that ~ we were in the place that she said that it was ~ her favorite ~ place in her village which is a lagoon. with a beautiful emerald color in the back and because I was photographing in black and white you couldn't see it. I I brought the the color of the of the water with the illustration. And all those like conversations that came from from that time when when yeah we spent like I don't know, like I I don't put metrics but I will say like at least two three hours of good conversation. Like there were like times when yeah like I just like started to talk and have my record recording something in case. Which I actually haven't come back because I was also making notes. When I have questions I go back to there but a lot of the times I I don't. But yeah, like I will say like it's a lot of time knowing them and they they showing me their place with Yas also I went to visit her at her house. She told me which were their favorite plants of her grandmother. Her grandmother was a big figure in her life and and how how I I I could put her in her image, you know like well, with this beautiful plant in the black background. So Yeah, it it it is it is it requires a lot of knowing them for sure. And Yeah. I think it's especially important when you are doing a personal project because you cannot go directly to the photos and then talk. You need to talk first, knowing them first. And sometimes maybe the photographs are not gonna happen in that session, right? Like maybe it will happen next time you will see them. Yeah. yeah. Okay. Can I have your third number, please? Nine. Number nine, have you ever turned down paid work that didn't align with your or your long-term project goals? How do you decide when to say no? That is from Anne. Yes, I have done it. Mm-hmm. I have done Especially collaborations. You know, like especially collaborations on Instagram where big brands come to s tell You are gonna be my ambassador and they're not Yeah. gonna give you other than the freaking tag. So yeah. I have Yeah. turned down those kind of collaborations because definitely they don't come from a place where we are in s equal situation,~ an equal position. So yeah, I have turned down big names. I'm not gonna say anyone's but big names of photography industry, but I feel like when someone doesn't sound good to you, doesn't sound fair to you It's okay to say no. And it's horrible sometimes because you know, like there are there have been other times as well that when money has been implied and I have said no. And I was like on not red numbers, but I'm not gonna I'm not sure if I'm gonna survive. You know, like in photography and creative industries happens that a lot when you are a freelancer when you you don't know Yeah. Yeah. if you're gonna make the make it till next month and how are you gonna make it till next month. So Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. Some of the, I don't know about you, but some of the collaborations I've been offered, it's like, hey, you know, we love what you do, blah, blah, blah. Will you put on these leggings? do you think, what's that got to do with what I do? You know, so, Ha ha ha. and you can't, you said, you know, you need money, not leggings. I mean, leggings are handy if you're short on a pair of leggings, but they don't pay the bills. So. Definitely. Definitely. I I I think especially I i for companies that work with photographers or have their products direct to people that are gonna consume consume them, doing that is disgraceful and really don't value the work of a photographer. Mm. Mm. Like like it is for me like it is like simply like I cannot understand it. I cannot understand it for sure. Yeah. Okay. Can I have your fourth number, please? I will give you that chance. So maybe you have one that you want to ask from Okay, yes, well there are lots of great questions actually. Okay, number one, in a world where many of us are from somewhere else, what does it mean to you to be indigenous? And do you think this element of identity shapes your photography in a different way from those who have migrated from their roots, but do not have the indigenous elements in their life story? That question's from Carmen.~ So it's quite an involved one. Yeah, absolutely. I I feel like at the moment I I in the moment I understood that the value of my story also came from where it come from as I said previously like the first photo that impact my life was this photo Mm-hmm. from Lola Alvarez Bravo who came to my my village and photographed this in the forties if I'm not wrong forties sixties I don't remember it's a big span what I said I think Yeah. it was forties Family of Man is the the the the show sorry yes~ yes, yes. yes like ~ sorry I realize, you know, like the importance of of telling the stories that come from close from your heart. I didn't see it and I actually as I said like it it took time. I started in 2006 to be interested in photography and my first project wasn't the project about my family because I didn't feel I didn't feel I didn't feel like I it wa it wa I was ready. It is interesting to to understand that I also require a lot of encouragement from teachers and people that were more knowledge in in this who helped me to see the value of my work. And for me it was like very moving when James Estrin the ed a photo editor and photographer now for well, he he was a long time a photo editor for the now on non-existent Lens blog for the New York Times. He saw this project and I remember the first time I so show it to him, I was still like not very sure of of showing it. because I was just finishing my Mestiza project and I like, I I wanna show him this and he loved it. He actually published it in the Lens. and I remember a lot like he telling me, But what else are you working on? And I was like, ~ well I'm working on this project about my family and you know, like very shy, like and ~ I really want to go to LA to photograph more of my family there because the diaspora is there. And it was just very interesting to me to understand also that he saw in me that it was important to my my point of view. So in this way it has per like the the indigenous in me, like understanding that value. Sounds weird but I needed to be validated because in Mexico we suffer a lot of discrimination, you know, like a lot Mm-hmm. like I know I'm indigenous from from day one, but it is very hard when everyone in your environment tells you to that is grown in a way. I I I I ~ feel so happy for the generation that is coming now growing in pride, growing embracing their culture, their heritage. But that really didn't happen as much to me. You know, like I grew up in in in an environment and then like yeah, I wanted to be whiter. You know, Okay. like I I remember that a lot. So I know I'm I'm I'm I'm going like a lot like I could com I could have a big conversation about this itself. Mm-hmm. But yeah it has been like~ a really big ~ battle also to Big bottle with with ~ demons in my mind. You know, like understanding and feeling like gro Growing that that that Mm-hmm. this is like I'm I'm talking about this converse this battle like a few years ago. You know, like not not now. Like I I don't have these battles right now. Just to to clarify because it's like yeah it's a very difficult difficult subject like a few years ago but now~ so many years after. I'm so happy, for example, to see the girls in my village, the girls from my diaspora being so proud and growing like with so such ~ different perspective of their culture. And the I had the the the opportunity to have a show in Oaxaca in two thousand twenty four, twenty-four, a few years Mm-hmm. ago. And I invited my community because that show was for my community. It was in the in the photographic center where I saw this Lola Álvarez Bravo photo and I invited to come and I asked them, if you can come in your traditional clothes, please do. And it was a celebration. I I cried in the opening because there were just women and men dressed in their in their gatherings and It is a time for reclaiming, you know, reclaiming what they tried to erase in us, politics and all this. ~ that happens also here in in the UK, I mean. I'm now I'm living in the UK and so I have also that layer of migrating here. which is like completely different approach from from And I'm glad that this happened to me in Mexico in the way that happened, because it empowers me now. And I understand also the relevance of creating visual representations. You know, like that's also why I create Bilha because I know how hard it is for indigenous women, Indigenous girls to find something that truly represents them. That they feel connected, that they feel like, ~ I this actually is my my aunt and she's doing this. with this project I also was able to do some workshops with kids. And that was the best part, you know, like bringing the photo and she said, I know her, I know her, this is my nature, you know, like and it is just like, Yes, this is about that. And I'm sorry if I just went in a big circle to say this, but it is very important to understand also the struggle you as a person pass because now I have it very clear. But it wasn't as clear when I was a teenager. And even when since I've been a teenager and been part of my community. I have never stopped to being what I'm being, but maybe I was hiding it a bit. Hiding because I was scared because all the discrimination I was having. And I remember actually one of the first time I dressed my traditional outfit in clothes in in Mexico City. Which year was? Maybe like ten years ago. And I remember all the stare. You know, like all the stare. Like I I enter into the metro, into this underground to to go to this event. And yeah, I I couldn't stop the stare. And and and even like like s like they they were like touching my clothes. Like I was like you know like you don't touch clothes of anyone. Like it is like it was like just Yeah. just like Wait a second. You know. I I I appreciate Strange. I appreciate like ~ you you you are that you are looking at it, but yeah, it is I I I feel I feel like I feel in a way like happy but because was the first time that I was doing it. But yeah, like it was just like you i if we were so secluded in a way, you know, like now now Yeah. I feel like we feel more freedom to just be ourselves. Good, some good progress then. Good. Can I have your fifth number please? Mmm let's go for ten. If a female photographer from a marginalized or indigenous background told I have stories to tell, but I'm not sure the photo world wants them, what would you say to her? That's another question from Anne. It is a lot of what happened to me, right? Yeah well I feel like everyone in the world has a very unique window to the a world that we don't know. Mm-hmm. And sometimes when we see it every day we stop to seeing it with these eyes of you know like being amazed by it. I feel like there is a lot of There is a lot of problem with imposter imposter syndrome for sure. Mm-hmm. Like I don't have work good enough. I like even even this series, I as I told you, like I was like, it's not ready. Like I'm not gonna show it yet. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the times it is just like where you wanna show it, why you wanna show it and how I can help you to to to to make it happen, right? And yeah, if someone someone came telling me like I have this story, I have these photos, I wanna show them but I'm not ready, show them to me. And tell me why are important to you and maybe if you are struggling to make more of this project we can find a route that you can take and make it happen. But yeah, I I understand why it's hard, why why why we a lot of the times unvalidate unvalidate our feelings or our view and yeah it's it's not easy at all sometimes to to fight against that. but yeah I think the first the first step is to ask someone you trust to see the project and ask for advice. Ask for advice like And there are a lot of of of good stars. Like I I feel like I had my very, very, very good father in in James, Jim, the person that I just told you because he he actually helped me a lot to understand what I was doing and he point, he direct me, go here, go there and and yeah like sometimes we don't un we also like in this industry like there are a lot of gatekeepers and we never know who who ~ it's difficult sometimes to know who is that gatekeeper, right? But Yeah. it is it is okay to ask just for can I have one spare time of your time? And tiny tiny, I want to show you something and yeah, let's let's see what happened after that. Yeah, I mean, I think if you ask someone for advice and they sort of say, no, don't, no, you're not ready, then that is a form of gatekeeping. But if they say, well, how do we progress this? And maybe they're looking at your work thinking this person is not ready, but what they want to do is help you get to the point where you are ready. That is a good advisor. That's good advice. Yeah, definitely. And I really hope that you winning the Sony World Photography Awards has made you realize that you really need to quiet down that imposter syndrome feeling. Yeah, definitely. I I'm I'm working on that. I'm working on that, but yeah, it's it's hard. Yeah, but it will inspire others too, which is great. I I hope so. That's the work about like to inspire others. Okay, so it's time for your final number, please. Final number seven? Okay, how do you feel about social media and Instagram? You don't post regularly, so this person was wondering if it's because it's not relevant to your work or because you fundamentally dislike it. That question is from Philippa. I don't dislike it, but I I also don't think it is that important. okay. It is important in a way that it really sh is is now sometimes Instagram is ~ more accessible or more visible than your website, right? Like sometimes Mm-hmm. the people a a lot of people use it as their profile. I do not feel that I need to post every day or every week even. I post when I feel like something is relevant and that yeah, like it's it's important to share. I know in this way I'm not entering in the algorithm and I don't get as many followers as I will I will ~ be aimed to have, but that's okay. Yes! As well like like the the the the thing about the virtual world It's not the real world sometimes not sometimes, all the time. It's not the real world. And it it is a massive, it has a massive impact in my in my mental health. I was Mm-hmm. more regular when I didn't have a a girl. Now my mom as well. And I need to wisely use my time. So ~ yeah, it's a lot about Yeah. man. I share stories, I share things about the world. I always like I'm always posting something that that is impacting in my life. or impact in everyone's life. I definitely like I I I keep on that. I know that not all the people see on the stories. but yeah like I I've been trying to post more regularly but I also try to post wisely so it's like a bit of a challenge for sure. And yeah like I I I struggle a lot with that one for sure. Like it's n I I understand the importance and believe me a lot of people have have reached out to me because of Instagram Mm. but but yeah I I'm I'm I'm hoping it's more about yeah I I hope it is more about the quality as well not the quantity and yeah I need to look after my mental health Yeah, no, I think that's a very sensible approach, to be honest. Because like you say, think websites actually these days are more important because you're in control of that. know, people find you, people can look you up and they find your website. But Instagram, it's just, you know, scrolling through adverts, scrolling through reels from people that you never said you wanted to follow, all of that. And it could change in a overnight. know, all sorts of things can happen, but you'll always have your website. Yes, yes. And on your website you have your control. What I what I mean is like a lot of people use them as their first introduction Yep. Yep. card. And when I'm being in festivals I found interesting that you are not exchanging cards anymore, but Instagram accounts. So you know like~ Yeah, yeah it is just like very ~ yeah, like interesting to me sometimes to see that. Hmm. but yeah it's but I feel more confident sharing a website. Yes, as well. Like I I do both, Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. Yeah you know, like I do both. But yeah, like I I what I feel in in with other with other photographers ~ in the last two events that I'm being is like they are like, what how what is your handle? How I can f follow you and it's like okay, this is this is mine. You know, like it like I I have feel like in popularity a lot of the times it is~ the first ~ ask. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But yeah, like as you say, like you are bombarded sometimes with things that you never sign for. You not necessarily have news from the people you wanna hear. And yeah, you don't have control. You don't have control for Mm-hmm. what you see. Yeah. Okay, well, thank you for joining me on the podcast. It's been absolutely fascinating chatting with you, and congratulations again on being the Sony World Photographer of the Year. Thank you so much, Angela. It was very, very enjoyable to talk with you. I had a great time and I hope everyone will have a great time listening to us. Thank you. I'm sure they will. Thank you. Bye bye. Thanks for joining me for this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Special thanks to everyone who sent in a question. You'll find links to Citlali's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show and tell all your friends and followers about it. In the meantime, you can follow SheClicks on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube if you search for SheClicks Net. So until next time, enjoy your photography.