Sam and Kerry discuss the topics planned for their limited series podcast including fertility preservation, sourcing donor eggs and sperm, timelines and costs and surrogacy by country.
Sam shares his global expertise regarding surrogacy and donor IVF, including...
Growing Families https://www.growingfamilies.org or call +61 02 8054 0078
Growing Families was established by Sam Everingham in 2014 (initially as Families Through Surrogacy) and has assisted over 3000 singles and couples to engage in cross-border donor and surrogacy arrangements.
As an International Advisory Board creator Growing Families specialises in education, guidance and support on surrogacy and donation globally. It provides legal, financial, psychological and practical professional industry advice as an independent third party in a complex area to providers. Growing Families helps singles, heterosexual and gay couples on their family building journeys.
Contact Growing Families today to find out more about its confidential one to one consultations, holistic concierge packages and global events with guest speakers and industry experts from around the world.
Sam and Kerry discuss the topics planned for their limited series podcast including fertility preservation, sourcing donor eggs and sperm, timelines and costs and surrogacy by country.
Sam shares his global expertise regarding surrogacy and donor IVF, including...
Growing Families https://www.growingfamilies.org or call +61 02 8054 0078
Growing Families was established by Sam Everingham in 2014 (initially as Families Through Surrogacy) and has assisted over 3000 singles and couples to engage in cross-border donor and surrogacy arrangements.
As an International Advisory Board creator Growing Families specialises in education, guidance and support on surrogacy and donation globally. It provides legal, financial, psychological and practical professional industry advice as an independent third party in a complex area to providers. Growing Families helps singles, heterosexual and gay couples on their family building journeys.
Contact Growing Families today to find out more about its confidential one to one consultations, holistic concierge packages and global events with guest speakers and industry experts from around the world.
Hello everybody. I'm Sam Everingham. I'm the Global Director of Growing Families and I'm a dad via Ignatian surrogacy, with our girls via surrogacy in India nearly 12 years ago now. It was because of that journey that I got involved in helping other singles and couples around the world with this process. Excitedly, here we're doing our first podcast of the series Did you hear about in a minute?
Kerry:Hi, i'm Kerry Duncan. How did I get here? So I was on a surrogacy journey back in 2019. I had my little boy via a surrogate change my life, and Sam helped me on that journey. After that, sam and I wrote a book together called Surrogacy Stories, and we interviewed people from all around the world who had been on a journey to become parents via surrogacy. We wanted to share some of the amazing stories. Sam, do you want to tell us a little bit about what we're planning to do with this podcast, how it's different to the book?
Sam:Yeah, sure. So it's more about what's happening in the world of surrogacy and donor-iveth globally, and it'll feature interviews with myself, but also a bit about what we do as an organization, as well as sort of a whole lot of topics that are relevant to this area, about fertility preservation, turning to egg donors, sourcing donor eggs, sourcing donor sperm, the types of people who are, who are using surrogacy these days and what the availability is, and the costs and the timelines in different environments, but, even more importantly, things like what's this like from a child's point of view? So we'll be hearing it later on in the episodes about how children think of themselves when they're born via donor, ivf or surrogacy, and how are you telling your children about these things. We're talking about particular journeys in places like Greece and the USA and Canada, mexico, georgia, argentina and other emerging destinations. So there's going to be a lot of stuff we'll be going through in the coming episodes to take people on this journey and keep people up to date with what's happening in the fast-changing area.
Kerry:That's true, it's definitely fast-changing, and that's the difference with the book, isn't it? We wanted to make sure this practical guide to give people real information on what can be quite complex issues. I found it completely overwhelming and Sam and his company growing families really was like a lighthouse just to show me the way. So this is about practical advice, interesting topics, about keeping up to date with what's happening in the world, and a global perspective on where to go and how to get started. We should say, sam, that actually it's pretty dynamic, isn't it? We've got 19 topics proposed, but they could change. We want to make sure there's real information, helping people as they need it really, but it's fluid.
Sam:That's right. That's right Part of what we're interviewing people, parents, surrogates, experts themselves about their journeys and processes and what they've experienced.
Kerry:Absolutely. So I'm just having a look at my notes here for where we're going to start today. I've got some questions. I really want to interview you, sam, because you have a really unique view on this whole industry and you've got global exposure, which I think is fabulous, and you're dealing with this every single day. So I think you're the best person to start with an interview And I've written down some questions. I hope you don't mind, i'm just going to launch training to them. Could you tell us a bit about growing families, how it started? You mentioned a bit in the intro there. Tell us a bit about how it started and where it is today.
Sam:Yeah, sure, so it really started as a sort of an organisation to try and support other Australians who are engaged in this process, and it was called Surrogacy Australia initially And that was really because all of us were just trying to design our family building journeys by going online, and a lot of us that was fraught with problems because everybody's situation was different. There were some little sharks out there on the online space and lots of people were getting burnt, and so it was a way to sort of bring parents, surrogates, you know, experts together to try and talk about these issues in detail and look at what the hurdles are, what the sort of the considerations in the space to make it easier for people moving forward. And it's, you know, it's gone from there to sort of doing conferences and events just in Australia to doing those sort of around the world and countries like the UK and Ireland and New Zealand and elsewhere.
Kerry:Exciting. I think you have one of the best jobs in the world. You might not feel like them every day, but you tell us a bit about what you love. What's the favourite part about your job?
Sam:I think it's really seeing those families created, you know, seeing the kids sort of come out of these arrangements, meeting the surrogates, meeting the parents at the start and helping them throughout the journey and seeing them there at the end with their families. It's been sort of a really lovely thing for me to see the joy that brings these singles and couples who thought they might never be parents. So for them, i mean, it's been really special.
Kerry:And what's the number? Sam, i did read it a while ago. Sorry, i've forgotten. How many couples of families have you helped now?
Sam:Oh, it's hard to count, but I mean it will. Over 3,000 over the last 10 years. It's a lot. I sort of interact with lots of people every week, really through the events and when I'm on consultations. It's always growing and lots of people come back for a sort of a second baby or third baby and they need further support, often in doing it in a different environment, in a different country.
Kerry:Now, what about in terms of intended parents or IPs? Do you think the journey is getting easier? So, over the last decade, is it easy for parents these days.
Sam:Look, there's probably more information around these days to help people, but unfortunately it's not really that easy easier than it used to be because it's such a complicated area, There's so many things that can go wrong in it and there's so many changes happening, sort of you know, year to year in the laws in different countries and the availability of donors and surrogates and supply and demand issues. There are a real problem in this area where you've got lots of people who want to be parents and not nearly as many people who who can be surrogates or donors, So it's an area where you can get really stuck and sit in a sort of a waiting pattern for a year or more these days. Back when we were going through it for 12 years ago, it was a newer area. There was a pliwoth and such an issue. It's now become really fraught with issues for people and lots of people can't find solutions to their own country and are having to go abroad. And that's where we particularly step in and help because it's sort of that's even more complicated.
Kerry:So, yeah, my observation there is that it's probably a lot more accepted and available as an option, that people know about that. The surrogacy is probably more well known, but it's probably no easier because it's probably even harder in many ways That's right?
Sam:I think it is. In a way, Costs have gone up. People are aware now that they need to do a bit more in terms of preparation up front. They need to sort of be aware that counselling is important and they've got to sort of make sure they're protecting themselves and their surrogate, So forth. So with green cruising awareness, it becomes increasing sort of complexity. I think too about how it all works And governments have become more involved in the process and they crack down on these issues more and made it tougher for people in some cases. So you've got to sort of get across those issues too. Yeah, absolutely.
Kerry:In terms of surrogates. Obviously there's a great big demand for surrogates. As you say, there will be more intended parents than there are surrogates. What are you seeing in terms of surrogacy? Are there trends, especially after coming out of COVID?
Sam:We're seeing in countries that allow altruistic surrogacy, such as the UK, new Zealand, australia, canada, we're seeing a lot more women put their hands up to maybe think about doing that. Unfortunately, that's not coming with the right levels of support for those surrogates And so many of them are getting a bit burnt by those journeys or unsupported. In the commercial context. We're seeing a lot such a shortage of surrogates in some places that we're seeing lots of movement of surrogates across borders where, say, a surrogate in the USA might go to Canada for an embryo transfer or one in Georgia might go to Greece to work there. There's lots more cross-border movement And that's partly because there's so few countries that have surrogates that are legally allowed to work there And some countries that have the laws but not the population of surrogates. And this is a cost issue too. Ivf is cheaper in some countries and not in others, so the cross-border issues are becoming more and more complex.
Kerry:Yeah, and I imagine that there's so many different surrogacy experiences depending on where they go and if it's commercial or altruistic, and everything from the clinic they're associated with and the parents they're dealing with. That's probably such a different experience?
Sam:Yeah, and we saw it in the book we wrote, didn't?
Kerry:we.
Sam:We interviewed people who've done altruistic surrogates. Some of those couples who've done altruistic, they couldn't even do the embryo transfer in their own country And they had to go offshore for that, which made it more complicated. There's so many different permutations to these journeys and no journeys the same. Everybody's got a different sort of scenario. Yeah, A matter of making sure you plan ahead.
Kerry:But one thing I know when we did all these interviews Sam was, it was just I loved how a lot of the parents kept in contact and became lifelong friends with some of their surrogates And there were some really beautiful stories and relationships that were sort of born out of it.
Kerry:Yeah, yeah, there were, and whereas others want to have a really separate sort of experience because they, yeah, just to protect each party really. So I don't think there's any right answer is there, but it's it can be a really beautiful relationship ongoing, if, if, if both parties choose.
Sam:That, yeah, you're right, but the book to show there's so much variety in that some people choose, choose one or the other.
Kerry:COVID. How did that change the journey? and we still. We still got COVID, obviously, but we're not locking down the world anymore. So you think that that's still a big issue.
Sam:Yeah, look, it is in the sense of what it's done to the population. And what happened, you see, doing COVID is is in a thousands and thousands of couples and singles put their family building plans on hold for four years because they thought it's just all too hard. And so what's happened since then is there's a lot more of those intending parents who've come back into the environment looking for a surrogate or donor and it's it's. It's made the supply issues worse. So because we've got lots of people who sort of you know, banked up those, those plans are a bit later in life And they're now impatient to get started and the surrogate sort of supplies isn't as isn't there often, so it's been harder for people. So the supply demand issues got a bit worse.
Sam:In fact, if interesting also, covid gave a lot of people time to think about their their life dream, to what they want to do with their lives, and we've got lots of people come to us during COVID saying, look, you know, i really want to start a family, it's important to me And and so it was interesting. Well, they thought to themselves you know, i want to do it. It wasn't easy to do it during COVID. They come to us during the COVID period and said let's at least get this planning happening.
Kerry:Yeah, in terms of changing demographics of who was an intended parent these days, and how have you seen that change? Obviously, there's more same sex couples. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Sam:Yeah, look, I mean same sex couple has always been a strong demand amongst gay couples to have families, But I mean it's probably getting increased awareness.
Sam:We're seeing more of those gay men coming to surrogacy at an earlier age these days, maybe in the in their 30s and 40s. We're seeing a lot more single people coming into surrogacy, single men and single women who haven't partnered and realize they want to sort of create the family without waiting for a partner to come along. That's been a real increase I've seen over the recent years. I mean part of these changes are the fact that there's such poor access in some countries to adoption And so a lot of those people who might have otherwise adopted a child or fostered a child have instead gone down the street. A child would have instead gone down the surrogacy pathway. We're seeing also a lot more older couples come coming to us now for help, who who maybe spent all time with their careers earlier on And sort of they're coming to the age of 45 or so and they're realizing, well, family's important to me And then it helped with donors or often helped with surrogates too. So that's sort of a real change.
Kerry:And I think it's fair to say that there's more and more fertility issues. Isn't there, as people tend to have the late having families? even heterosexual couples start having trying to have a family and then go oh, we're maybe now late 30s and it's not happening.
Sam:Naturally, Yeah, let's try. Fertility issues are increasing, you know whether it's. You know. Complications to deal with failed transfers or cancer issues or endometriosis or kinds of things are complicating people's family building needs, particularly as they age, they get into their 40s and 50s.
Kerry:Yeah, the next one I had is are there any ideas, sam? How do you make the journey less complicated for people?
Sam:It's a really critical question, that one.
Sam:It's all about planning. You've really got to be informed about what the risks are, what the possible pathways are that you know that this journey could take, understand what the limitations of of eggs are at different ages and what success rates look like. And also I have a plan B. You know I always say to people when I'm doing consorts you know, here's the plan A, which will be idle scenario, but this might not work out this way. We may need to turn to plan B, which might be going to use donor eggs or it might be going down the path of offshore arrangements.
Sam:We don't want to start it locally, and being prepared for those changes and setting budgets is really important for people Also being realistic about success in certain scenarios and everybody's situation is different. You know, some people the success is going to be much higher because they're going to be using a younger egg donor And so things might be less complicated because they're going to be making really good embryos early on. So their chances of having a we call a live birth earlier are much higher than someone who's losing their own eggs at the age of 42 and 44 and struggling with the with success rates based on that. And there's this complication instead about having to switch over to make embryos again and do a second or third or fourth five year cycle, and part of that is just being informed about what these risks are, what the costs of them are going to be, if you're going to want to do five different pathways. So you inform from the start.
Kerry:Yeah, i've got to say that's absolutely been my experience when, when you try and search individually yourself, i got lost, you know googling and trying to find information on the web and just got so overwhelmed and it was literally once I heard of you and Your business wrote a report for me that just became so simple. So I 100% agree with that, sam. I think it's. You can never. You can never take all the complexity out. But if you get well informed and have a clear pathway as you say, plan a, b, maybe even a C It just Takes a lot of the complication out, doesn't it? Information is key, i think, which is why, hence the podcast, really Any general advice in addition to that for IPs.
Sam:I think, be open-minded about the options available to you and Prepare to think of things outside the square. I mean, sometimes people have someone who's offered to be a donor for them and and Sometimes we can, you know, do things in various places. Your donor might be in a different state or different country to you and It's still possible to work under those circumstances. You know, we live in a bit of a global velocity states where travel is much easier and we can, and often do, bring together babies by having in 10 parents, one country donor in a second and a saga in a third, and Those kinds of scenarios are increasingly common. But you know, so it's important to think about that also, to think about the fact that you've got to be resilient here. This is an area where it's not like buying a car or It's a bit more like building a house, where things that can go wrong and they and that and they often do, and you've got to think of, you Know ways to overcome those hurdles.
Kerry:Because a lot of people involved isn't there with your like it or not. When you've got a Surrogacy path is yeah, it is really is a community making happen. You've got a global view, sam. Are you really unique one and these fantastic global partnerships you work with? What are you seeing internationally about? to the Changing laws and anything that might impact on intended parents and or surrogates, of things changing fairly regularly?
Sam:Well, yeah, i mean at the moment we've got major reviews of law happening in in the UK and in Ireland and In New Zealand, and they all have impacts over hopefully making the process More simple for citizens of those three countries. We've recently seen countries like Spain, you know, crack down on surrogacy and make things much harder for Intending parents using surrogacy, with Spain saying, for example, we won't recognize children born by a surrogacy by giving passport. So different countries are taking very different approaches in this area. You know, we're seeing new countries Open up laws to surrogacy, places like Uganda Opening up programs. We've seen new programs in places like Kazakhstan. So there's all kinds of sort of Different countries who are bringing in laws or have recently brought in laws to allow these programs. It doesn't mean that it makes it an easier journey having laws in place, but certainly means that it opens up possibilities and I just know, even in Australia, that there's Just talking about the complexity part.
Kerry:There's different laws, isn't there Sam different states and Territories, so it's even in one country can be complex that alone globally. That's right, that's right. It's back to that whole getting the right advice early on so you're not wasting time and energy Going to the wrong place.
Sam:Yeah, could you?
Kerry:share a bit of information about cost. That's obviously, you know that's a hard question, i know, because cost can be so different But to give a bit of an idea about, maybe, the range, and even by country, or just a bit of an overview About what you say.
Sam:Yeah, sure, what currency you got me to talk about this in? oh gosh, i probably the US. US is complicated currency because it's a very global currency that we often talk about these things in. look, if you're doing What we call traditional so we see where you're not using it an IVF, click the donors using your own eggs and you're doing a home insemination, and some people can do these processes from as little as $30,000 US dollars. But look, it's rarer that you.
Sam:you will find surrogates who are willing to do the traditional route, mostly Singles couples we engage with a doing what we call gestational.
Sam:So usually we're either using their own eggs or donor eggs.
Sam:In that case you're using an IVF clinic and there are countries in Africa where people might do this for a list of 35,000 US dollars, but typically you'll be spending something close to 90,000 US in a place like Greece, for example, perhaps 70,000 in a place like Georgia. The programs the USA can be around 200,000 US dollars for a program with a egg donor and a surrogate and so forth. And there are some programs that we have what's called guarantee program We'll talk about we'll be later in the series where they'll fix the costs for you, even if you have sort of a several unsuccessful embryo transfers. they'll keep going until they have what we call a live birth. So costs do very hugely, like by country and depending on your success rates as well, and it's important to be aware of those costs and what the risks are of success or failure. Be aware of what kind of programs you're eligible for, because in some countries you know they're only open to people of a certain age or certain sexuality and others are open to all.
Sam:So the costs range, as I said, can vary from that 30,000 markup to 200,000. And some people do choose those more expensive programs than the USA because they give peace of mind. It's because it's like the USA been doing these programs for many decades now And they know how to screen surrogates well, screen donors well and look after them. So you know, have legal process of the, put both parents in the birth certificate to give people that security and legal legal recognition.
Kerry:So one thing I thought I'm sure there's other intended parents who are listening to this that they probably worry about is that there's obviously a lot of costs in this process, but you wanna make sure that the surrogates looked after, whether it's commercial surrogacy or altruistic. This is probably a hard one, too, because it's such a different experience. But what would you say to people about how they could help that happen, because it's like it's such an overwhelming process in some ways. But you wanna make sure the surrogate you've got the right surrogates. You might know them or you might not know them often, but we don't know them beforehand very well. But how do you make sure that they're gonna get a good deal out of this in terms of being looked after emotionally and physically and financially, whatever that might mean?
Sam:Yeah, look, it's a really good question. I mean, part of that is, if you're doing what we call independent surrogacy, making sure you got the capacity and time and preparedness to look after your surrogate yourself, and in that sense, it's much better doing that with someone who's in your own city or town. If you're doing agency managed surrogacy, it's really important to have an agency who comes recommended, who has good reports from other attending parents and from other surrogates about looking after the surrogates well, and that's where you know, due to just as important, you're talking to experts like growing families, talking to parents who've used the provider and talking to surrogates who work with an agency too, about where they looked after. How do they feel about you know, working with this agency in the past, because you really are relying on other professionals to a great extent in this area because you're not gonna be there close at hand with your surrogate a little time.
Kerry:Yes, well, i'm sure we're getting to some of the individual podcasts. We'll talk more about this, because I think it's a really important area, isn't it? That one? Yeah, right, and just look. Finally, this is another tricky one. What is the industry need? It's so this is my observation It's quite piecemeal, it's complex. Different countries have different laws, different tolerances and different expectations of souring a sea. What do you think the industry needs and what would you like to see happen? Sam?
Sam:Well, i'd like to see more cooperation between countries in this space, more recognition that that that surrogacy does happen across borders and it's going to be continuing to happen in the decades ahead And, as a result, more protection and recognition of the surrogates and the children born from a legal perspective So the barriers, you know, are less, but also that this is a more cooperation between countries in terms of making sure this is a space that is protected, well protected and more regulated, because the moment there was a little lack of regulation in the area. There were some countries where anybody can engage as an attending parent without checks and balances being put in place, and others were souring, so probably not well screened, before they go ahead to. So both those areas need to be addressed really thoroughly to make sure things are happening in a safe way.
Kerry:And Sam, can you talk a little bit about a sort of global or international chart? Is that something you can chat about, or is it a bit early to talk about that?
Sam:Yeah, sure, i mean there's been a hage of invention working on a global charter for the last decade or so And unfortunately, that group hasn't had much progress in coming up with a general agreement amongst nations, given there's so much difference of opinion globally about where surrogacy sits from an ethical viewpoint. It's been difficult. I mean, as a result of what growing families has done is put together an advisory board of experts from a range of different countries which offer surrogacy, to try and bridge that gap, if you like, and try and come up with it, whether on minimum standards and our own guidelines for how this should work, because there is a real black hole in the area right now in terms of agreements amongst countries about surrogacy.
Kerry:I mean, ultimately it's all about protecting, I think, all the parties, whether it's the surrogate, the intended parents, make sure that the clinics and everyone involved comes up to a certain standard. You know, the industry has a really good reputation and when you stand outside of all the complexity, amazing things happen. When these babies are born, they're so loved. So how do we make the process easier and for everyone involved and everyone's rights are protected. So I love you know that you'll put this international group together to do that Fantastic. Is there anything else you want to add?
Sam:Sorry, I think it's really good introduction to the space for people who are coming to this refresh, because I would cover quite a few of the other issues from a list from an overview point of view before we dig deeper into the later episodes.
Kerry:Yeah, absolutely Quick plug, Sam. You've got some on your website. People can find out when there's actual Yeah, yeah.
Sam:We do have sort of a regular schedule of events in different parts of the world, whether it's an annual conference or a seminar in different cities, and they tend to be into large cities like Sydney, dublin, perth, london, places like that. So you know, they're a really good place to meet up with other parents. So these are all quite lots of planning because we're bringing experts from around the world to talk to people. So you know, often it'll be very usual for us to have providers from sort of eight, nine different countries at an event.
Kerry:Exciting. Well, I can't wait to get stuck into more of these podcasts.
Speaker 1:We hope you enjoyed this episode. For further information, please head to the growing families website, wwwgrowingfamiliesorg.