Unravelling Georgia's Surrogacy Ban: Implications, Risks, and Recommendations for Intended Parents

We discuss the news of Georgia's impending surrogacy ban for foreign nationals, a situation that's causing great concern for many . Our episode brings invaluable insights from our Host Sam Everingham, Global Director of Growing Families and Poonam Jain, a migration agent. Both have  a rich experience in international surrogacy, and front line experiences with similar legislative changes in India,  Thailand and Nepal. Amid the uncertainty and ambiguity, we'll attempt to decode the potential implications of this closure and recommendations for Intending Parents.

Based on what has unfolded in other country bans our essential message is: Don't panic. There will be a solution and we are here to help. 

Growing Families https://www.growingfamilies.org or call +61 02 8054 0078

Growing Families was established by Sam Everingham in 2014 (initially as Families Through Surrogacy) and has assisted over 3000 singles and couples to engage in cross-border donor and surrogacy arrangements.

As an International Advisory Board creator Growing Families specialises in education, guidance and support on surrogacy and donation globally. It provides legal, financial, psychological and practical professional industry advice as an independent third party in a complex area to providers. Growing Families helps singles, heterosexual and gay couples on their family building journeys.

Contact Growing Families today to find out more about its confidential one to one consultations, holistic concierge packages and global events with guest speakers and industry experts from around the world.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

My Miracle Baby navigating surrogacy and donor IVF a limited podcast series Recorded and produced by growing families, sam Everingham and Kerry Duncan.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Welcome everybody to today's podcast. It's all about Georgia. I'm here with Sam Everingham, who's a global director of growing families, and Poonan Jayne. She's a migration agent specializing in international surrogacy and she's based in India. Welcome Sam and welcome Poonan. Thanks, kerry.

Speaker 3: 0:40

Thank you. Thank you, kerry.

Speaker 2: 0:42

You both have a professional background in global surrogacy and I'm sure over the years you've seen many changes in the industry. So we're really keen to talk to you today, particularly following the announcement in Georgia. I understand there's a current announcement about potential closure of Georgia and I bet there's lots of people feeling concerned about that. If I can start with you, poonan, i understand you've just come back from Georgia this week, so you'd be close to the news. I hope you can tell us a bit about that, but also share your background before we get into the Georgia situation. What you saw happening in India.

Speaker 3: 1:15

What happened in India was when there was a ban announced, a similar kind of ban like announced in Georgia. Obviously, the first thing that happens is panic among the IPs because you hear so many rumours and you don't know which one to follow. So there are tons of rumours around and the clinics also do not have a clarity from the government because they just abruptly say ban, but that ban does not include clarity what will happen to the embryos? How much would the government support the pregnancy, which are already there and with the deliveries in 2024? So we don't know anything like that. So India had the similar problem and the clavities came after like six months, eight months, and so people were panicked for six months, eight months. Nobody knows what's happening. And the same thing I saw in Georgia, where my brother is on the ground. The ban is there but nobody knows because the government is not releasing any information. So nobody knows what's going to happen next. Can we go to the border country? Can we sell freeze? Can we keep our embryos there?

Speaker 4: 2:32

Nobody knows, and I think, pernum, it's probably safe to base some of our recommendations on what we've seen happen in countries like this in the last 10 years. Remember when the ban happened in India? the government didn't allow people who were in current contracts, i think, to continue their arrangements, didn't they? and they were able to keep doing transfers if they already had a contract in place. was that right?

Speaker 3: 2:58

Yeah, in India they allowed people who had already signed the contracts and allowed those whose pregnancies were in action. you know already the surrogates were pregnant, so they allowed them to deliver and follow the program which was already there.

Speaker 4: 3:17

That's right. We saw the same thing happen in Thailand and in Cambodia, i think. When that was banned there, people who had current pregnancies were allowed to continue. I think what's unclear in the Georgia situation now is whether the government will allow embryo transfers to occur after January, the first next year, for people who are already in arrangements. Will they allow second or third or fourth transfers?

Speaker 3: 3:45

Yes, that's a good question, because I asked the same question to the clinics but they did not have the answer. And the same thing I asked like first attempt, we don't know successful. So will they allow? so if there is a contract signed, then the contract is signed for unlimited. So will they still acknowledge that contract? the government that since it was an unlimited sign, so unlimited transfers as per that contract, so that can even go ahead in 24. But will that contract be?

Speaker 2: 4:17

acknowledged. So can you two both explain to me what's actually been said so far? What do we know for sure?

Speaker 4: 4:23

So what we know for sure is the Prime Minister of Georgia has announced that he would like the Syrogynyi region to be banned for all foreign nationals from the 1st of January 2024. And the background here is that after the Ukraine war broke out and after Russia closed down the Syrogynyi programs, a lot of agencies from Russia and Ukraine moved both their Syrogots and their businesses to Georgia, and it meant that Georgia suddenly had an influx of foreign Syrogots and foreign people who really the law wasn't designed to support. And so I think Georgia and government is still a bit overwhelmed by an environment in which many of these Syrogots are foreigners who are sort of giving birth under Georgia law, and that was never the intent of the law. Would you agree with that, purnum?

Speaker 3: 5:11

Yes, i agree, i agree.

Speaker 4: 5:13

So I mean it's unusual situation in that Georgia did have a fairly robust law, unlike India or Thailand, which didn't have laws, and yet Georgia's decided to just cease things. But we have seen this happen in the past. Purnum, you'll remember, during the COVID pandemic Georgia did also ban Syrogots for about six or nine months, didn't?

Speaker 3: 5:33

they. Yes, it was banned. The ban wasn't announced. It wasn't internal ban.

Speaker 4: 5:38

That's right. The issue with Georgia is the reason they had such power here the government is because they control the notaries, and notaries are a key part of the Georgian-Syrogynyi process. Unless you have your contract notarized by Georgian notary, it can't be recognized at the birth Right. And so the government said to the notaries you must not sign new contracts, and that's what we think is going to happen from January 1st Is the notaries will say that And the notaries are not in control of the agencies. They're controlled by the government.

Speaker 2: 6:08

So did the Prime Minister say that it may happen or that it will happen? Do you know what the language was specifically?

Speaker 3: 6:15

They did not say it not happened, he just said, it will happen if it happened in January 1st 2020.

Speaker 4: 6:20

Right. So he was still in black and white, yes. So the next question is for people who were in current revanements, that they have not got a pregnant surrogate by 1st of January and they're in a contract. I mean, what I'm thinking was going to happen is that the embryo transfers they may be often maybe in neighboring countries, like what happened in India going to Nepal. So the neighboring country I think we're talking about here Purnima, i think, kazakhstan and Armenia, is that right?

Speaker 3: 6:52

That's absolutely right Yeah.

Speaker 4: 6:53

Yeah, so the the difficulty there, though. I see, though, is that Armenia certainly does not have any surrogacy laws in place, so who would go on the birth certificate if the birth happened in Armenia?

Speaker 3: 7:08

See what happens in countries like Armenia. I'll share my experience with Nepal. So in Nepal, the generic law is so what happens in these countries? they make an arrangement prior to moving the business. Okay, so the Indian clinics did make an arrangement with the Nepalese government, which they agreed internally, that we will be running the this many surrogates developers here and we'll be doing this kind of an arrangement. So in India, the name of the parents goes on the birth certificate. So we would like to continue here in Nepal, The same thing.

Speaker 4: 7:47

Okay, okay.

Speaker 3: 7:48

The both parents name will go, though the birth is given by the surrogate mother. But we would like to keep the similar arrangement because the IPs won that and that was followed in India. So the similar kind of arrangement. The clinics were moving the business to Armenia for delivery. They'll have to do internally with that government there and the same thing will be followed.

Speaker 4: 8:10

Okay, but we don't know that the Armenian government will agree to that, do we?

Speaker 3: 8:14

We don't know that That's right.

Speaker 4: 8:15

Yeah, yeah, i mean the other issue that happened in Nepal was and then the Nepal arrangement didn't last. I mean Nepal got sick of having those cases with me and they closed it down.

Speaker 3: 8:24

They closed down because you see one of the clinics moving out of India to Nepal. Those who made the internal arrangements, they were okay with it, but suddenly many people followed. So there was a huge demand, huge crowd, and then there are too many people in a place where there's no law, where there's only an internal arrangement. Then it falls apart.

Speaker 4: 8:47

Yeah, and I think that's the risk we're going to see with Armenia is that's what will happen, and I think you and I already talked about the fact that North Cyprus is the other issue where some of the Georgian targets are already giving birth And if those arrangements increase, the North Cyprus government will also close that down. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:08

So you see from my experiences, germans are not very comfortable with a woman traveling from one country to another country and to deliver. Yeah, You know if something is happening within the country with their women, they will still accept it. But Indian women crossing the borders miles away to Nepal by road because clinics did not make them travel by air. They wanted to save money, so they made them travel, and the distance between India and Nepal by road is 18 to 20 hours.

Speaker 4: 9:42

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:43

So they were all loaded on the buses and they were taken by road and then they're delivering in. a government came to know that our women are going there and delivering, so they kind of stopped.

Speaker 4: 9:55

Yeah, i think the same issue is going to happen in the Georgian region as well. I mean, you're right, at the moment we have a lot of so-gets coming into Georgia from Kazakhstan, from Ukraine, delivering babies there, and I think it's a really difficult situation legally and ethically to have those foreign women delivering in another country who are having to deliver under Georgian law but they're not Georgian nationals.

Speaker 3: 10:19

Yes, and another problem is since I do migrations when you're crossing the borders by road, by area air, if there is a bump on the road or any accident happens and you're in between the two borders and say one surrogate has a pay, who takes the responsibility of the bus at a ticket?

Speaker 4: 10:39

Yeah, it's just like the police.

Speaker 3: 10:41

Oh, it's not my jurisdiction, i'm not going to enter, so the same thing. We don't know Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:46

So what advice do you have for IP who have heard this news and are feeling very anxious and upset? What would you say to them?

Speaker 4: 10:53

I mean for those who have pregnant surrogates already in Georgia. I think those people can relax and know that their processes will go ahead as normal and there's no need to be concerned because we expect the Georgian government will honor all existing pregnancies. I think some clinics are providing a window where they'll take new cases and do embryo transfers, obviously until the end of the year, and I think I would advise people to be very cautious about engaging in a Georgian program with a new embryo transfer arts at 2024, just because of the risks we're talking about now Of birth having to happen in a different country and not being on the birth certificate. We don't know what arrangement we made with the Armenian government, if any. It's worrying, but I think people really need to look at countries which have got secure laws.

Speaker 2: 11:52

If you haven't started the journey yet, but you're exploring, would you just say recommend that people not look at Georgia right now?

Speaker 4: 11:58

I think that's right. Already, a number of Georgia clinics have said to us they're not going to take new Georgian cases now because they just know they need to look after the cases they already have. match the Syrogynsia cases they have right now with intending parents. There is quite a large backlog of cases which haven't had matches happened with the parents of paid deposits where they need to find Syrogynsia for them, and that backlog is going to last a number of months yet. So unfortunately it's going to take some time for that backlog to go. so it does create extra pressure, i think, poonan, would you agree on other countries who do have programs, like Greece, usa and Canada or even Mexico? I think we're going to see increasing demand in Mexico, would you agree?

Speaker 3: 12:43

Yeah, i agree with that.

Speaker 2: 12:44

Poonan, have you got any other advice in addition to what Sam has said for intending parents If they're worried?

Speaker 3: 12:53

Whatever the clinics are telling them they should share, either Sam and me can discuss it and pull their hands because we have a better understanding of the program rather than being awful to them. So then they don't say hands. We don't know what clinics are open to.

Speaker 4: 13:08

I'm hearing some concerning news from some of the providers in North Cyprus. They're claiming that, although the birth certificate will have the Syrogyn and the intending father, the parents own country can change the birth certificate, and we know that's not the case. They're not able to change the birth certificate. One final question I have for you, poonan, is the Kazakhstan question. I understand that there are laws in Kazakhstan currently that do allow heterosexual couples to engage in the Syrogynsia there. So do you see Kazakhstan as a viable option for people going forward?

Speaker 3: 13:41

I am here to check the law there and once I've checked the law but I did hear about Kazakhstan and I've heard that couple of Indian doctors have moving there, so I'm here to speak to them. So once it's open to them, check the law, check the program, then it could be a very good option because, it's close by and also, like Kazakhstan, women were being hired by the Georgian clinics to be a Syrogyn.

Speaker 4: 14:08

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3: 14:10

So Kazakhstan also started it. The rumor that I heard was because the women were moving to Georgia. So they say why not a program here?

Speaker 4: 14:20

Okay, I see.

Speaker 3: 14:22

Yeah, for their own women. Why do we send them cross borders? You don't want to do that.

Speaker 4: 14:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, i mean the issue I think we're going to have is there's not many embassies in the capital, almaty, are there? Yes, so, for example, some national youth might need to go to Moscow to get the travel documents. Would that be right?

Speaker 3: 14:39

Get the travel document. I don't think you have to travel. It's like I'm handling the Aussie clients right now. You do not travel to Ankara it comes via Korea and I can do everything online. So I think Australians are safe. I'll connect myself with the Australian Government there to check what is the rule, because in Ankara they clearly told me nobody has to physically come here.

Speaker 4: 14:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3: 14:59

Yeah, they prepare it and send it Yeah because, generally, they don't want you to fly one country to another Sure sure.

Speaker 2: 15:04

So, sam, just a quick one for you. What can people do? How can they reach out and contact growing families?

Speaker 4: 15:09

They can email us on info at growingfamiliesorg. We do have some conscious support packages for people who are anxious to try and make sure their current Georgia programs do complete successfully, and we have support to help them engage in other countries that might have safer laws or safer environments. So we're doing a lot of that now and experts like Pernum are helping us a lot with some of the current cases and helping them with exit and making sure people don't have as much stress as they would otherwise have. Obviously, having a birth in a foreign country is stressful enough as it is without having to worry about paperwork, so people like Pernum and growing families were really able to help with that a lot and help guide people to make sure they're not making the wrong decisions early on.

Speaker 2: 15:58

And I'll just add it's easy to say this, but try not to panic. For people, i think, and it's like, there's usually a solution. When you get the right help, work through the complexity, there'll be a solution there, won't there? especially people caught up in the middle of all this.

Speaker 4: 16:10

That's right, that's good advice, pernum. thank you so much. it's great to talk to you. Thanks, sam, we'll look forward to seeing you soon.

Speaker 1: 16:18

Thank you, guys. thank you, we hope you enjoyed this episode. For further information, please head to the growing families website, wwwgrowingfamiliesorg.