My Miracle Baby - Navigating Surrogacy & Donor IVF
A limited series Podcast to support couples and singles from around the world to navigate the often complex and sometimes overwhelming journey to parenthood via surrogacy. Topics include fertility preservation, sourcing donor eggs and sperm, surrogate experiences and support, costs and timelines , with a more in depth review of surrogacy by country. Industry experts, parents and surrogates are featured in most episodes. Not to be missed if you or a loved one is contemplating a family via surrogacy and/or donor IVF.
My Miracle Baby - Navigating Surrogacy & Donor IVF
Exploring the Global Landscape of Surrogacy: Costs, Timelines and Support Systems with Sam Everingham
We explore the topic of surrogacy in nations around the world with our expert guide Sam Everingham. Sam illuminates the potentially long wait times of altruistic programs in countries like Australia and Canada, and contrasts this with compensated surrogacy paths in nations like the USA and Argentina. We compare average timelines, costs and procedures around the world.
Our journey doesn't end with surrogate matching; we also dive into the realm of donor eggs and sperm and steps Intending Parents can take to give their surrogate the best care and support. Finally, we offer a peek into the Growing Families' concierge package – a vital support program for singles and couples embarking on this emotionally taxing journey.
Growing Families https://www.growingfamilies.org or call +61 02 8054 0078
Growing Families was established by Sam Everingham in 2014 (initially as Families Through Surrogacy) and has assisted over 3000 singles and couples to engage in cross-border donor and surrogacy arrangements.
As an International Advisory Board creator Growing Families specialises in education, guidance and support on surrogacy and donation globally. It provides legal, financial, psychological and practical professional industry advice as an independent third party in a complex area to providers. Growing Families helps singles, heterosexual and gay couples on their family building journeys.
Contact Growing Families today to find out more about its confidential one to one consultations, holistic concierge packages and global events with guest speakers and industry experts from around the world.
My Miracle Baby navigating Surrogacy and Dona IVF a limited podcast series recorded and produced by growing families, sam Everingham and Kerry Duncan.
Speaker 2:Welcome everybody. Today we're talking about surrogacy availability, costs and timelines around the world and, as usual, you're here with our host today, so Kerry Duncan and Sam Everingham. And today I'm interviewing Sam because he's got some fantastic knowledge on surrogacy around the world. We know that costs and timelines and availability can vary dramatically depending on the individual family type and the countries involved, and so what we talk about today we'll be talking very much in terms of averages, because we know that every situation is unique, sam.
Speaker 2:But, I'm still hoping you can answer some of these questions and direct people if they want to know more information how they can go about that. So welcome, sam, to your own podcast, as both the host and also our interviewee.
Speaker 2:So, sam, if you think about someone starting their journey from now to a time when they needed a surrogate what would you tell them in terms of timelines, expectations, making a decision that they need a surrogate to then finding one until the birth of their baby? What do you see as sort of common or average here?
Speaker 3:That's a great question.
Speaker 3:People ask about timelines a lot.
Speaker 3:Look, it depends on a number of factors, unfortunately, but much of the factors depends on, a which country you engage in and, b the answer you work with.
Speaker 3:Because in countries which have altruistic programs, like, say, australia, uk and Canada and even Greece, the way times the surrogates have become a lot longer and they're not guaranteed at all in places like Australia and the UK because we don't really have much of the way of agencies.
Speaker 3:So for people looking at those programs, you could easily be looking at a three and a half year journey and to end, if it happens, whereas if you're looking at compensated surrogacy these days in countries like the USA, argentina, georgia, columbia, if you go with the right agency, you can be matched with a surrogate within sort of have the first embryo transfer within about six months. So you could say, look, you could have a birth within sort of 18 months or so of starting the process. Obviously, it depends also how soon you are able to start and whether you've got embryos already made or not, and some programs offer quicker match times at a higher cost. So you've got to really weigh up how impatient you are to get things going with what your budget is. Some countries have, which we'll talk about a minute.
Speaker 2:I know have different costs, but yeah, so it really varies from about that 18 months to three and a half years, depending on where you're going, and I'm sure there's people who know their surrogate could be a sister or a friend, a family member, and I suppose then it's usually yeah. So for that group it's different.
Speaker 3:So if you've got a surrogate already lined up and it's going to be your friend or your relative, then that can literally happen within a year. You could get through your counseling and your legals within three or so months. And if the first embryo transfer took, then it could be quicker as a year when you're parent. So for that kind of case it is even better, assuming your surrogate's ready to go straight away. Sometimes you have a family member who's happy to carry it, but she says, oh, I can't do it until a year's time or two years time. So that's what puts some of these things on hold as well.
Speaker 2:And I must admit, even if you didn't know somebody, it would be still a bit of work to do any legal documentation, to go through the whole IVF and getting that person, the surrogate, ready for oh sure, exception.
Speaker 3:Exactly so. Countries like the USA. There's a lot of screening of known surrogates up front. You know it could take sort of four months of upfront legal and medical screening and similar in Australia and the UK. It can be easily be that long. You know, if you're doing what we call traditional surrogates see where you're using the surrogate onyx then that's often a quicker process if it works because you're not going through the IVF system, you're just really using a turkey baster and doing a home insemination and so for people who are prepared to do that, you know it can be even quicker.
Speaker 2:This might be a tricky one, Sam, but in terms of what you're seeing around the world, where do you think the best surrogacy arrangements are?
Speaker 3:Is there one country that stands out.
Speaker 3:Oh look, there's not. There's so many variables here. I mean you know some. I mean the USA has been doing it for the longest. You know they've got sort of 30 years track record doing this. So there's lots of checks and balances in the US system because they've been doing it for so long. But that also means you know that there's a longer time to get through all the upfront checks and balances process. And USA is in demand as a country. Lots of people want to go there for surrogates. It has got off in longer wait times for matching than other places. I mean there's countries like Greece where the transfer of parentage occurs before the first embryo transfer even happens. So for some people that's really attractive, the fact that you're having that transfer of parentage happening upfront, and I think that's it was to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, at the great model for lots of people because they feel that security of knowing that's already done. So you know, I think from a legal point of view, Greece is great, but it's not for everyone, is it?
Speaker 2:there's certain restrictions? No, it's not.
Speaker 3:You can access Exactly In Greece, you know you've got to be a married heterosexual couple or a single female, and under a certain age I think it's 54 now for the female.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, is it possible to break this down into wait times per country? Is it a bit of an indication? Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3:So I mean, this is averages, but let's talk about wait time in terms of time to embryo transfer, because somebody like the USA, the average time that embryo transfer is an average of nine months. In Canada it's about 16 months average. In Greece it's about nine months, like the USA is now, and it used to be much shorter, but it's just changed post-COVID. Argentina around six months, yeah, and Columbia around six months, yeah, but again, these averages helps them make expectations.
Speaker 2:And in each of those countries. I understand that the Greek system, because I went through that the birth of my little boy. What do you see with other countries where there's not the same court process upfront? Did Syracuse and the intending parents typically sign a contract, a standard contract?
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, you've always crossed border arrangements. There are contracts signed so that the Syracuse is declaring she will give up custody of the child and in some of these countries, or the ones I've been mentioning, there are court, either court processes or laws that do protect that arrangement. So the reason why we only really recommend particular countries for the Syracuse is there are only laws protecting you in some of these countries. So that's why they are USA, canada, greece, if you said, and Argentina, the key ones. In some of these other places, like Mexico and Cyprus, the surrogate will often go on the birth certificate with the intending father.
Speaker 2:And then what do the parents intending? Parent mother will adopt the child later.
Speaker 3:Well, often that's not even possible to adopt the child later. So those programs are more popular with gay couples, where they're not so concerned about having a woman on the birth certificate. And whether you can adopt the child later depends on what country you're from. The laws around this at a global level are complicated and different by your country?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes, I can imagine. I know we probably should touch on this because I had this spirit when I was looking to go down the surrogacy path is that you read headlines from time to time about a surrogate keeping the child and I think it's every person's worst nightmare that they'd go through this whole emotional journey and that the surrogate would say sorry, I'm keeping the child and see you later. And I think statistically very rare Sam is that right. It is very rare.
Speaker 3:Yeah, look, are you right. It is a common concern people have, but it's very, very rare. There's more of a concern amongst the surrogates that the parents won't turn up to pick up the child, and that's what's unfortunately more commonly will happen if a couple breaks up or has problems in their own lives. Sometimes that can happen.
Speaker 2:But the surrogates.
Speaker 3:Or COVID, exactly Because the surrogates are nearly always screened to make sure they've already finished their family or have at least one child, and because in these cross-border arrangements it's never the surrogates eggs that are used. It's always the intending mums eggs or donor eggs. So there's no genetic relationship with the child. So the counseling and screening up front makes the surrogate fully aware that she's really babysitting someone else's kid and she doesn't have any intention to bring it up. So that's just an understanding that people need to come to terms with and realize that this isn't a real risk. The real risk is your commitment to the process as an intending parent. Yes, there's countries like Australia and the UK where the contracts are binding, so the surrogate can, from a legal point of view, change your mind post birth. Luckily, that doesn't tend to happen in Australia, particularly because the counseling up front is so good and so thorough. But it is a risk that puts people off and some people say look, I don't want to even wear that risk, so I'll go overseas.
Speaker 2:I think that you're right. That's why counseling and that screening is really important, because it's a massive job to do. Isn't it to be a surrogate for someone?
Speaker 1:I imagine I've never done it.
Speaker 2:It's just. You know it's a massive responsibility emotionally and physically. So you want to make sure that someone's got the right support and had the right counseling and they've been screened appropriately.
Speaker 3:And we should talk about just briefly Sam the baby gammy story, the media sort of made out that the father had abandoned the baby and just taken the twins back to Australia and in actual fact, that is a good case of where the surrogate had decided that she had fallen in love with the baby and wanted to keep that child.
Speaker 3:So you're right, that is a good example of where this can happen, and there's been other cases like that, also in Thailand actually, where surrogates have decided they wanted to keep the baby. That the other case I can think of is where they were caring for a gay couple and they hadn't been told it was a gay couple they were caring for and they weren't okay with that and they felt, no, the baby should stay with them. So that's another reason why you could be very, very careful, and this was also on the days when surrogacy was operating in Thailand. Well, they had any laws in place. There weren't any real rules around whose baby it was, and so those unregulated countries like Thailand and like India did end up shutting their doors because it was, in comparative terms, a bit of a Wild West in terms of a legal framework.
Speaker 2:And I can see the attraction for people who want it could be quite an expensive process as an IP. So I can see the attraction to try and to take some shortcuts and find a cheaper way of doing things, but then I suppose that's the inherent danger, isn't it? But it's not regulated. People aren't being screened potentially as much as they should be, so there's a lot more risk.
Speaker 3:That's right. There is a lot more risk and people need to be aware of that that while it may seem, you know, cheaper or easier, there's a lot of risk and a lot of us who went through some of those hard lessons when we were 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:Wait times for donor eggs at the moment Sam.
Speaker 3:Look, I get it various by country. Some countries like Canada and the In Australia you can't pay a donor for eggs, so there's a much more limited supply of donor eggs around, whereas if you're going to somewhere like, you know, the USA or or Greece, donor eggs are much more plentiful. But then the wait time will depend on how picky you are. Some people think, oh, I only want a donor who's got these features, and so they are an hour about it for for for many months before finding a donor who meets their needs. So, you know, I would probably like to say between about one month and six months for donors, depending on how picky you are and what country you're engaging in. If you, if you're doing it in an altruistic environment, you know it could be 12 months or two years to find a donor Wait time for sperm.
Speaker 3:Look, it's much easier on average to get sperm simply because there are Berm donor databases more readily available, donating sperms an easier thing for guys to do, and so even if your own country doesn't have sperm available, I think they can import it from somewhere like the USA or from Scandinavia, which have large sperm banks. So we tend to find the wait times is about, you know, one or two months maximum for sperm.
Speaker 3:Is there a particular country where success rates are generally higher and Well, I mean, success rates are really depending on the quality of the embryos you're pointing in and I think we've got us have another podcast on that issue about embryo quality. But if you're using donor eggs, for example, and the donor has been well screened maybe she's a proven donor, so she's done this before and if the embryos are also been tested before they're transferred to the surrogate that process we call pre-genetic testing for aneuploidy then that also increases the chance of weeding out the less equality embryos. So countries that do that standsly, like the USA, do tend to get sort of higher success rates on the first or second transfer, maybe around sort of 45 to 65% success rate per transfer. Just because they're testing up front is more sophisticated and more thorough than it is in some other countries. These tests, that embryo testing, is available in other countries but it can be slower to get done and not everybody sort of pushes for it.
Speaker 2:And is there anything that intending parents can do to reduce the time frame and speed up the process in some way? What would you recommend? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 3:Look, in countries like USA you can pay extra money and that extra money will allow you to fast track your matching with a donor and a surrogate. So that's certainly possible in the US environment. In other countries there's not quite the availability of shortcuts, if you like. To doing this. I mean, obviously, growing families has a Consular Service now which is doing a lot more work to support people with their journeys and really keep the communication going and moving with their agencies, because we do see a lot of people get stuck in ruts where the agency just doesn't match with surrogates or donors and they come back to us six months later. Because we were seeing so much of that, we decided to start Consular Service programs to help people with that. Obviously, if you have your own surrogate when you go with your own egg donor, then that speeds the prices up because you can start more quickly.
Speaker 2:Can I just say on that one, sam. So I think this is my view on speeding things up is to get advice and it sounds like I'm advertising for you, but it's so true, it's getting the right advice, because it's so easy to spin your wheels and waste time just going to the wrong country. So if you get the right advice and I know one thing that growing family does now as part of the Consular Service is give you an individual, bespoke recommendation- that can save well months, if not years of time.
Speaker 3:No, you're wrong. We do see a lot of people come to us and they say look, I've been on this journey for a year and I just got nowhere. And I'm more confused than once the start because they're getting so much conflicting information from different places. And they come away from doing the first Consular Service and say, oh my God, this is great, we're going to have a plan and we know what to expect, because it is so hard on your own. You know this area of people assume they can self manage it, but it's often tough.
Speaker 2:Well then you start looking at Google and Facebook pages and if there's so much conflicting information, you end up honestly feeling like you're drowning in information and more confused. So I strongly recommend that people get advice and get someone to understand their circumstances or their objectives I mean objectives, obviously, to have a healthy child at the end but they'll know a bit about their circumstances and make a recommendation. It can save so much time and money, I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:We're going to talk briefly about cost per country.
Speaker 3:I know it's an important issue that we're often asked about. So look again, I'm going to talk about averages and it depends a little bit on whether you've had embryos already made and you're shipping embryos to that country or whether you're making embryos in the country. I'm going to talk about minimum costs where you've already made embryos and I'm going to talk in US dollars, because we work so globally here now we tend to sort of put all the costs into US dollars so they're easier to compare. These cost of course, don't include your own travel and accommodation and maybe embryo or sperm shipping if you're doing that. So somewhere like Argentina or Colombia is more like the $65,000 US mark. Greece is a little bit higher now at around $70,000 US, canada is around $87,000 US dollars as an average and the USA has a starting point around $130,000 US for programs there. They can go up to sort of $200,000 US in the USA depending on who you engage with.
Speaker 3:There are some providers who charge a lot more than others. So really put it, just pay to know what the differences are and what you're getting for your money and these programs. But in general terms, programs tend to be broken up into either embryos are made, we're just doing the surrogacy programs where you're using an egg donor in the other country and you get a lot of your own sperm, and a pay-as-you-go setting where you're paying for every transfer, and programs where they might include three transfers or they might say we'll do a guaranteed live birth program. Some countries offer those where they'll say we'll keep doing transfers until you have a live birth and some people they find those really attractive because they do give them some peace of mind.
Speaker 2:You mentioned before a concierge package, Sam. Would you like to talk a little bit about that? It's a new package, I understand.
Speaker 3:The one that we're running here, yeah, so look, we're seeing increasingly intending parents are wanting support, particularly in the post-COVID, post-ukraine war environment where people are a bit more nervous about travelling now and the wait times have become much higher for people.
Speaker 3:So that program involves one of the coordinators at Growing Families providing ongoing support to the single or couple, liaison with the agency, helping them with paperwork, with shipping if required, with contract reviews, with a raft of issues around embryo transfer decisions, surrogate decisions, donor decisions. A lot of people feel a bit left on their own with this stuff because there's so many decisions to make along the way and they want someone there to help them make those decisions and help them guide them and also give them some moral support as they're going along, because sometimes you know things don't get a plan. They've got to start again with new embryos and we can provide a lot of assistance and advice on what to ship over, how many embryos you should be shipping. You know should you provide sperm as well when you're shipping. You know advice about insurance, about visas and citizenship and passport support for newborns are all the kind of things this connoisseurs program does for singles and couples. So we're seeing it really packing off. In terms of meeting a gap.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. It's designed for someone who's at the start of their journey, ideally all the way through to the birth, or even just out to the birth of the baby. That's right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean we're getting also people taking it up halfway through the journey where they're saying, look, I really want support now because I'm finding it's hard. So they're a program like a silver package which is for people who just need maybe three hours to support during their journey and others who want support the whole way. And somebody just wants support at the end for the what we call pre and post birth support. For people who want that support for the end part where there's lots of paperwork to do and lots of moving parts and logistics.
Speaker 2:I remember, just to share really briefly, that I thought the hardest part of the whole journey would be, you know, getting a surrogate, shipping over embryos, the baby's born, hey, everything's done. But then I realised very quickly that actually getting my baby home was one of the hardest parts, and it's just so. Every day when you're overseas, away from your family, can feel like an eternity. So I wish this package had been available when I was going through my journey, sam, because it can feel so lonely and isolating. Yeah, yeah, because I remember, I think, when you were going through.
Speaker 3:I think you had your sister with you for a while, didn't you? And then she had to go home.
Speaker 2:Yes, and then she had to go home and I was by myself and I had a bit of a moment feeling disconnected and overwhelmed by the process. And luckily, a girlfriend came over a few days later, but I was by myself in a foreign country with a baby that I thought what have I done for a few days Now I can't imagine my life without him. I couldn't love him anymore. But it's just yeah. That support, I think, can be invaluable. So I love that you're doing that. That's great to hear, yeah, yeah, just to finish off, we should talk about the surrogates.
Speaker 2:And now we're going to have another session on surrogates. Is there anything you would say? I don't know. You and I both passionate about making sure the surrogate has the best possible journey. You've looked after and respected. Is there anything you want to add there, sam, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's really important that you make efforts to meet your target upfront, even if there's a language barrier, to make sure there's a translator available and you can get to know at the start of the process and be put in touch with her so you can sort of keep in touch with Google Translate or with the translator in person and be there from port scans not have to be there in person, but at least be there on Zoom or on a FaceTime thing so you can see these important scans and make sure your surrogate knows about you as a single or couple, knows your story and she can focus on who she's caring for. That's really important stuff and to be working with an agency who you have confidence looking after your surrogate well because you're not there, because it's having so far away. You don't want to be losing sleep over how your surrogate's been cared for. So making sure she has a good support around her is key and that's really up to your agency to make sure that's being done.
Speaker 2:Just to wrap up, sam, on this topic. So any general advice for intending parents on this topic of surrogacy, wait times et cetera Look.
Speaker 3:I think you've got to plan ahead. You've got to make sure you know don't expect this fall to happen tomorrow. You do need to have patience around the process and you've got to be prepared to put trust in other people. Realize you're not going to be able to do this all yourself. You are going to have to trust people to help you with it. Have some hurdles along the way and be prepared for those hurdles along the way, because that's common in surrogacy journeys around the world.
Speaker 2:And that's a good note. Probably finish on that Self care.
Speaker 3:Actually, sam, isn't it Really looking after yourself, because it could be exhausting and very trying at times and one of the things you know which we have put in the Platinum Conscious program is a counselling session. You know, an in-depth counselling session with a professional counsellor to look after yourself and to make sure you're being looked after and you are. You know, mentally you're coping OK and you've got that support there because you're right. It can be tough otherwise.
Speaker 2:And then, at the end, for those that are blessed, which, as many of us, have gone through this journey, there's a beautiful, beautiful baby waiting on the other side. So all that hard work and yeah, pays off. It's a magical process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for your time, sam, as a host and our guest star today, looking forward to the next podcast. Thanks, Sam Wonderful, it's great Bye.
Speaker 1:MUSIC. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For further information, please head to the Growing Families website, wwwgrowingfamiliesorg. Music.
