Extraodinary Journeys to Parenthood from around the Globe

Ever thought about the intricate ballet of bringing a baby into the world, when surrogacy and donor IVF are involved? Wondered about the heartfelt stories of parents-to-be who tread the path less taken, bracing through the highs and lows of assisted parenthood? Join us on this enlightening journey as we turn the pages of our book "Surrogacy Stories", which captures twenty extraordinary narratives from across the globe - from India to Ireland, Thailand to Canada.

Listen to the poignant tale of Kate, who ran the race against time and money while attempting to use her own eggs for IVF. You'll be moved by Catherine and Keith's  journey in Ukraine after they experienced an unbearable loss of their first baby in Ireland. And then, meet Nick, a single father who navigated the uncharted terrain of surrogacy with the help of his ex-partner's egg donation and a rock-solid support system. We'll be peeling back the layers on these resilient stories and many others, shedding light on the unique ways people navigate their fertility journeys.

Navigating surrogacy isn't a solo flight, and we dig deep into the importance of robust support networks - from family to professionals. We'll talk about the importance of building the right team, finding the right clinic and lawyer, the science of surrogate matching and even stem cell collection. And as we unpack this complex journey, we also share some golden nuggets of advice for those brave hearts considering setting sail on this rewarding, yet challenging voyage to parenthood. Tune in - this episode promises a rollercoaster ride of emotions, resilience and the sheer beauty of parenthood.

Growing Families https://www.growingfamilies.org or call +61 02 8054 0078

Growing Families was established by Sam Everingham in 2014 (initially as Families Through Surrogacy) and has assisted over 3000 singles and couples to engage in cross-border donor and surrogacy arrangements.

As an International Advisory Board creator Growing Families specialises in education, guidance and support on surrogacy and donation globally. It provides legal, financial, psychological and practical professional industry advice as an independent third party in a complex area to providers. Growing Families helps singles, heterosexual and gay couples on their family building journeys.

Contact Growing Families today to find out more about its confidential one to one consultations, holistic concierge packages and global events with guest speakers and industry experts from around the world.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

My Miracle Baby navigating surrogacy and donor IVF a limited podcast series Recorded and produced by growing families, sam Everingham and Kerry Duncan.

Speaker 2: 0:23

Welcome everybody to today's podcast. It's pretty exciting actually for both Sam and me to talk about surrogacy stories. The book we wrote was last year, wasn't it? Sam? That's right, last year, yeah, yeah, it feels like five years ago. A lot's happened at that time, but Sam and I got together last year and we had a pretty productive year and we produced surrogacy stories, 20 extraordinary journeys to parenthood. How do you feel about the book now, sam? Oh?

Speaker 3: 0:50

look, it's lovely to have it done. It was, as you know, it was a lot of work and a lot of interviewing people from all over the world, but I mean it's great to have it out there now and have that as a resource for people who are at the start of the journey or midway through, and even family members and friends. You wonder what this is like for people.

Speaker 2: 1:08

Yes, I agree it was a lot of work but it was really rewarding and it's so nice to share those journeys which I was looking through the book yesterday and a bit just before actually. I'm reminded by how remarkable these journeys really are.

Speaker 3: 1:23

Yeah, that's right. I mean, what struck me about it was the diversity of situations for the attending parents. I mean, we had those singles, we had couples, we had people from so many different countries. You know heterosexuals, gay couples, you know single women, single men, all with different situations as to why they needed to go forward and all with different experiences.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Absolutely, but I think we both agreed at the time. The thing we thought they all had in common was they were pretty determined and resilient.

Speaker 3: 1:52

That's right and I think that's a quality. You know that you and I would know you need to have to go ahead with these kind of pathways, because there are lots of twists and turns, so many of them.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Yeah, both of what would be really great today is to share some of the sort of maybe easier journeys and then sort of talk about the more complex ones and everything in between, and I thought it'd be really great. Sam, we've got a section at the back of the book which is about tips and recommendations for attending parents things that some of the parents who have been on this often complex journey would recommend others do to make their life a bit easier. So I thought we'd spend some time as well talking about those tips.

Speaker 3: 2:27

I think that's a great idea. Yeah, yeah, that's true of that.

Speaker 2: 2:29

All righty, have you got a story you want to start with one that stands out, or any of your own?

Speaker 3: 2:34

Look, I mean, I suppose what motivated you know Middic involved in surrogacy, education and support generally was their own story in India. It was years ago back in I started in 2009, I suppose really, and I mean, look, we had no idea what we were letting ourselves in for with that journey and it was tough in that we weren't able to the risks of double embryo transfers and we really engage via word of mouth. I mean, so many people do and feel evident from this book, they engage fibers during Facebook searches and that can lead to problems of itself. Of course, the awful thing for us, described in the introduction to the book, is how we lost the boys Ben and Zach at that really early stage, at their 20, 25, 26 weeks gestation, and that's such a hard thing, that's a late pregnancy loss, and being able to pick yourself up after that and move on again was tough, but I'm so glad we did it in the end. It made me realize you do need a lot of emotional resources in this area as well when I looked at some of the other stories we looked at.

Speaker 3: 3:35

I mean there were some of those couples who they were going to engage in India and then India closed down. There was one, for example, hillary and Ben, an Australian couple, who were a sit on India and then they were working in Thailand and that closed down and they did in fact do an embryo transfer for an Indian Soviet in Nepal. Of course the earthquake happened in Nepal and that was sort of really difficult for them and trying to find wasn't successful, but they weren't going to give up and they ended up going to Canada and doing a journey there and that was really successful for them. I think it struck me about Hillary and Ben Stroy was they already had a child and for them, as well as many other couples, having a sibling for that child is really important and they'll go to great lengths to sort of try and make that happen.

Speaker 3: 4:19

I mean, there were some more straightforward journeys we described in the book, particularly in places like Canada and the USA, where things went quite smoothly. There was that Swedish couple, sonan and Robert, who engaged in Canada and the main complicating factor for them, if you remember, was Sonan wanted to use his sister as the egg donor, which was lovely thing to do, but I think it meant bringing his sister over from Thailand to Canada to donate her eggs there, and then they sort of went to the process that way, but I mean that worked really well for them and being able to think outside of the square. And you know, a lot of these journeys had different ingredients, if you like, from different parts of the world, which made it more complex. But also make sure you realize the effort and thinking people put into these processes upfront.

Speaker 2: 5:07

Yeah, and what's possible, isn't it when there is global cooperation, like all those resources around the world producing a beautiful baby, ultimately? So? It's quite remarkable, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 5:18

Oh, that's right. Yeah, it is. It is really remarkable. I mean, some of the people we know were shipping embryos from one country to the other, made embryos stay in Australia and shipping in the Greece. And the other story that struck me particularly was Murray and John Stroy in Ireland. That was one of the ultra-historic stories we did where Murray's sister carried for her. When they were going through that in 2013-14. There were still no laws in Ireland allowing an Irish clinic to help them, so they had to travel over to the Czech Republic wasn't it? To Prague to get the embryo transfer done and then come back and have the birth in Ireland. And so you know, although it was an ultra-historic journey, there were still traveling across borders to make it all happen.

Speaker 2: 6:02

And I was looking at their photo yesterday actually their family photo and gorgeous family. The little girl looked so much like her dad, like her identical son from the photo they shared.

Speaker 2: 6:11

It's a beautiful story, that one I've actually really drawn. You hear me flicking pages here Brett and Stuart in Canada in 2017. And they were just a really beautiful couple and they spent after being together for six years. They started their egg donation surrogacy journey in Canada and, of course, their story is particularly remarkable because at 24 weeks gestation their surrogate went into labor and it looked pretty horrendous. They were literally flying over there thinking the worst. Thank goodness their surrogate was okay. And after I can't remember how long it was, I'm just trying to scan the book now. I think it was many, many weeks in intensive care in hospital. Their little boy finally was released from hospital and, remarkably, there was absolutely nothing wrong with him. It was perfect health after all these horrendous health scares, and he might be deaf and he might be blind, and he was perfectly healthy and he's a thriving little boy.

Speaker 3: 7:05

That's right, that was a great story. I mean, you know, a really stressful time for them over there in a foreign country, with the mercy of a foreign medical system, but it was a great outcome. I mean, they would just, you know, I had to drop everything and go over there, for I think it was three months at least they were there for when they were in hospital, but no amazing story. And I mean it makes you realise, though, that sometimes, you know, you just do have to drop everything and look after your mother. You know wherever they are, whatever situation they're in, and I mean it is hard to predict what's going to happen here and they had the strength to, you know, to get through that.

Speaker 2: 7:35

Yeah, and it was a fantastic outcome. I also just noticed, while I was quickly reading this before that when that back in Sydney they were talking about being gay dads and some of the discrimination against them. Occasionally when, even if it's unintentional, you know they're taking a thing down to the park and a lady fit in oh you are right with that little boy instead of interfering and they're like we've got this, we're okay. And remember Brett saying and I'm quoting from the book here I think dads get largely overlooked in the community of parenthood. I just feel like everything is built for mums. Lots of dads take time off so the mums can go back to work, but the community is not set up for that. There's just so much language about mummy. There are dad books as well, but you've really got to search for them. Basically, I thought that was really nice. Just to remember that. It is very much. You probably find this yourself, sam focus particularly well on the mothers in many situations and not so much on the dads.

Speaker 3: 8:27

Yeah, that's right. I mean we do have, you know, large numbers of gay singles couples who do engage in sorrows these days and it's important that the community recognize that. One of the stories here that struck me, struck an over me, because I see it so often was Kate and Paul's story. This was a UK couple that were living in Australia at the time. They'd met in the UK and they had a son, told me you might remember, and they wanted a sibling for their boy and they decided to go ahead and end here and they were really keen on the ethical process in India so they engaged with the target directly. They were for the lawyer rather than getting an agency involved. But the interesting thing about Kate was she was really keen to use her own eggs in the process and she knew that was gonna give her a low chance of success. And let me just read out a bit of a quote from her.

Speaker 3: 9:17

I was probably overly optimistic with my own biology. I just thought, yeah, I'll be all right. I didn't quite anticipate eggs being a huge factor in my success. I just thought I got pregnant really quickly the first time, so I'd be optimistic. But if I'd taken more serious mental advice at the time I probably would have known that, having a hysterectomy, the ovaries to die, they're not functioning anymore, so quality is gonna diminish for a rapidly every year. And so, in fact, what happened, if you remember, with Kate's stories? They did do a few transfers and none of them worked and in the end they ran out of money and they did and time really, and they decided look, you know, they want an end to move on.

Speaker 3: 9:54

And it's interesting, I do get couples coming to me sometimes saying look, if it doesn't work for my own eggs, I don't want it have a family and that's a really important decision that some women have to make, but many others come to us if you know who can say look, you know, I'll do whatever it takes, even if that doesn't mean, in the end, an egg donor.

Speaker 2: 10:13

Well, I changed my mind. I was never going to do it, as you know, Sam, and I thought, okay, why not? But I love her story as well. Their story is really beautiful. It was really raw and that you know. In the end they didn't have their second child, but they all grew from the experience and I love her honesty about she would probably do it differently now and would use donor eggs.

Speaker 3: 10:33

Yeah, yeah, it was nice to sort of see that coming through in the stories about what they weren't along the way. Kate in particular and I mean you know she wrote at the time she wrote beautifully about her journey on a blog. She'd written that we would put some of her blog quotes in the book as well, which were so moving, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2: 10:51

How about Catherine and Keith from from Ireland who went to the Ukraine? I love their story as well. They tragically lost their baby, helen at birth I think, wasn't it Sam? She would die of birth and awful medical complications. Anyway, once they'd healed a little bit from that as much as you possibly can ever heal from that they decided to sort of start investigating surrogacy and they felt completely foreign doing that. I remember they were saying Catherine had to sort of drag her husband along. He was. They realized there were just normal people like them, everyday people who had trouble with fertility and needed help. But I love their story. She was such a character, catherine, when we interviewed her.

Speaker 3: 11:30

Wasn't she.

Speaker 2: 11:30

Yeah, she's a great storyteller and I cannot believe that her and her husband agreed to have a camera crew follow him around. They're part of a documentary, aren't they?

Speaker 3: 11:38

That's right. That's right. No, that was. It would have been quite stressful, I'm sure, having the documentary team there with them when they were over in Ukraine. Yeah, it wasn't extraordinary. I mean, that documentary aired a few years ago now, I think.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Yeah, they ended up with Twin Girls, and one of my favorite photos in the book is her and her husband the two of them, keith and Catherine coming home with Ted and Elsie and a ginormous trolley full of luggage and their two babies in Catherine's arms, and you know half of Ireland. They've got a big family waiting for them at the airport with the camera crew. So it's a good story that one.

Speaker 2: 12:13

You're ready to get your hands on the book. If you haven't read that one, there's some, so all the stories are really, really wonderful, I think.

Speaker 3: 12:18

Yeah, it was great. I mean, there's also some lovely accounts of parents bringing their own family, their own mother, over to them for the birth or before the birth to have them meet their surrogate and sort of be part of that experience, and I think that was really nice as a see that people are including their their own parents in the journey too.

Speaker 2: 12:37

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, we should mention Nick, the single dad.

Speaker 3: 12:42

Yeah, that was unusual because and I see more of this these days so Nick's a heterosexual single dad who who just hadn't found the right partner and interestingly enough, he had asked his his ex-partner, I think if she'd donate eggs as part of the journey for him. She couldn't carry a baby for memory herself, but she was able to donate eggs. I think she flew over there to Columbia, wasn't it? They did the journey, columbia, and so you know he was able to keep her as a part of that sort of that family, if you like, as the egg donor for his child. And I think the other fascinating was his ex-partner's mother is still quite a strong part of their family group now back in Melbourne.

Speaker 2: 13:28

I know, and I love that the donor mum didn't want to have her own children. The grandma gets to be a grandma. So when we did our book launch, I spoke to Nick and he was saying that she's like a really big part of the child's life, as are his sisters, and so it's a whole lot of thinking about the whole community, the family, kind of helping raise their beautiful girl. Yeah, and I, to be honest, it's hard to believe. I even thought this, but I remember being so shocked that a man would have a baby by himself, I mean while I was doing it, but I hadn't really thought of it, sam, to be honest.

Speaker 3: 13:56

Well, that's right. And look, and I also was skeptical about it in, you know, 10 years ago, when I first got into this area and then I started to see these single guys having children on their own, and as long as they had support networks around them family and friends to help out I did see that it could work. The other fascinating thing about Nick's story well, there were two things was A he was at the birth, was sort of at the beginning of COVID, so he had great difficulty getting into Columbia to be there at the start and I think he missed, you know, the first few weeks of his, his mother's life, but also his relationship in Columbia. Well, his surrogate wasn't close, but it was very close with a nanny, was there, he engaged, sort of helped out when he was over there and they became really close friends, how they stay in touch this day, which was, which was lovely.

Speaker 2: 14:43

Yeah, absolutely. We should also talk about another remarkable story. I mean they all are, but this one really stands out in my mind. That's our very last story in the book.

Speaker 3: 14:53

Yes, I thought you were gonna talk about that one. You're right, it was extraordinary.

Speaker 2: 14:56

So Sung-sil and Kyeong.

Speaker 3: 14:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:59

And then war broke out in the Ukraine and it's quite a remarkable story because Sung-sil was born with MRKH syndrome and so I was unable to carry a child. So she had her eggs extracted and I think MRKH were created. And then it was many years later that they were looking for a surrogate and the timing just so happened to unfold where, when their surrogate was ready to give birth, war had already broken out in Ukraine. Growing families really helped out, sam, I understand. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 3: 15:32

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3: 15:33

I think we got a call from this couple sort of you know, not long after the war broke out saying, you know, they were from Korea and they needed to get over there for the birth and of course they couldn't get into Ukraine.

Speaker 3: 15:46

I mean, an extraordinary part of that story was we were able to help them get their surrogate on a train evacuating people out of Ukraine into Poland, and Sung-sil ends up meeting her surrogate at the train station in Warsaw and I think, you know, a day or two later, you know, we organized for the birth to occur in Warsaw. So that was an extraordinary story, you know, filled with you know. It's like a thriller really, in terms of making that happen and getting that surrogate of theirs on the train and then even organizing the paperwork for them to return back to Korea with their child. That was sort of new and wrecking as well, because Poland wasn't a country which really recognized the surrogacy births, and so there's a whole lot of fiddling around with that as well. I know we were really keen to include stories from all over the world, and so I was thrilled we had one from Korea there as well, which showed that this is a global issue where people worldwide are requiring help.

Speaker 2: 16:42

Absolutely. Another thing that's really stood out for me in that story remember we were chatting as they were overseas and they were really stuck there and because their baby was born outside of Ukraine. Just read out this quote here from the book if Maryanna birthed outside of Ukraine, it would be her and not the commissioning couple listed on the birth certificate. So the IPs didn't get to go on the birth certificate or the mum didn't. That's right.

Speaker 2: 17:06

And so then they were basically unable to get back to Korea and I remember when we spoke to her, Sung-sil's mum was coming over. Her husband had to go back home yeah, he hung for work and Sung-sil's mum was coming over and they were looking at maybe living there indefinitely at that stage, which would have been so overwhelming.

Speaker 3: 17:24

Yeah, I remember it was a really tough situation because we had to get the Korean authorities to recognize the birth and I think we had to help them organize a lawyer, get an adoption organized, because you were at the point on the birth documents. So it was really a tougher case. But I mean, unfortunately these kinds of complications can come up in Syracuse all over the place. So it was lovely to be able to help those guys and they're safely back home in Korea now, which is great.

Speaker 2: 17:51

I just want to read this bit out. So it says here this is that of their chapter. For months, sung-sil and Kyung had no legal claim and no idea when their son would be granted a travel document to allow him to return to Korea. And the great news is that they, as you say, they got the help they needed. And then at the end she says at the end of her chapter given all the unexpected circumstances, of course, I felt overwhelmed and worried, also financially. It was well out of our initial budget. I felt it was a bit daunting to pay all the bills for legal services. And then later on she says I quickly tried to put my perspective right. We are parents. They were just so happy. In the end it all worked out beautifully. Pretty stressful at times.

Speaker 3: 18:29

Yeah, that's right, I mean. One more story I think that suddenly could mean which was quite extraordinary, was Frieder and Max, that German couple. So we were initially going to engage in Ukraine this is about 2015 now and ultimately they decided to run out of aid. They'd go to Mexico and they were able to organize a ceremony in Mexico that sort of was so too hard and then worked out the way to get their child recognized under German law and then they were, like many couples, keen to do a sibling journey by that in Ukraine actually again, and that just didn't work. Ukraine was a terrible experience for them and I mean it's interesting. We did see some couples who had awful experiences for certain agencies and others, you know, who had good experiences that it could get very a lot depending on the staff members you're dealing with in the time of the time you're dealing with them. Some of these companies you know were great for a few years and then they sort of ended up being much, much worse.

Speaker 2: 19:28

Absolutely. We can't finish off this part without talking about Audrey's story. Just really briefly, can we? Yes, it was extraordinary God so Audrey ended up with twins. Yeah almost as a single mom really is. Her relationship broke down. Yeah but journey to become a mother is is absolutely extraordinary, so I didn't know he'd do it justice by trying to summarize it. Really you need no, no.

Speaker 3: 19:54

I still don't want to spoil it too much, but but there were some extraordinary hardships. All you went through, you know, with her own body, including an incredible incident on a plane trip to Japan. I think it was where she was miscarrying on the plane. You know she didn't give up and she and a partner did engage in the USA for psoriasy and that Process went fairly smoothly, you know, except for a few complications in the in the relationship made the birth itself really dramatic. I remember, as I've seen with some of these cases you know, that couple did end up breaking up after the birth and, yeah, audrey is now on her own with those kids, but, but, but, so happy.

Speaker 2: 20:30

Yeah, I think. One thing that comes to mind, I think, when I think of all these stories and you're like you never know what's gonna happen with relationships and the journey can be Challenging, no matter who you are. It's gonna be challenging at some point Because it's all unknown. The importance of extended family I think for everyone is really important having that support around you.

Speaker 3: 20:48

Yeah, and I do always when I'm doing it on cetacean with a single couple, I'm always asking them you know, what support do you have around you for the process, because you're gonna need some support. I mean, obviously we have a support service for people and we can provide some level of a Emotional and just support for people, but for an ongoing basis, especially when you you know you're coming home with, with your mother, if the board, you're gonna have to think about those things too and how that will work for your own life.

Speaker 2: 21:13

Yes, should we just spend the last few minutes just with, maybe in the appendix, talking about some of the advice for Intending parents?

Speaker 3: 21:21

Yeah, good idea.

Speaker 2: 21:22

One of the first things was Building the right team, which we just really spoke about, and that's the professional team, and it's also family and friends, and that's invaluable, really, because you really do need it, because it is quite an emotional journey.

Speaker 3: 21:35

Yeah, but part of that is the right IVF clinic. You know the right lawyer to work with if you're needing an egg donor. You know how are you gonna source that. There's a lot of moving parts in this appendix but you know it's important to be aware of that. You're gonna need to sort of think about including your egg donor and your soreness Potentially.

Speaker 2: 21:52

Yes, yep. We then talk a little bit about surrogacy contracts and agreements. Has a bit of advice there, surrogate matching, and another one that's really important. This saved me. I was getting the right legal team. That's so important. Don't try and do it yourself, oh my goodness. You just need the right professional there.

Speaker 3: 22:08

Yeah, that's right. I mean it's important you know in some countries a lawyer for yourself and for your surrogate and others. You know it might be just one lawyer, but it does vary a lot depending on where you're engaging, that's right, I want to call it stem cells.

Speaker 2: 22:21

I actually collected stem cells for my son and it's something that seems to be more prevalent. This is my observation, sam. Tell me if you think differently that stem cell collection it seems quite normal in Europe.

Speaker 3: 22:34

Well, certainly it's quite popular also in the USA. I mean, we don't do a lot of it in Australia here, but I got a query actually from an Australian couple the other day who wants to do it in the USA and bring those stem cells back here to Australia and we're asking only where can I bank them in Australia? So you're right, I think more common, and I think that's that's the cord blood it comes from, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 22:55

That's right and the great thing is, if your child wants to, you know, at any stage becomes ill, they could be used for things like cancer or some sort of disease, or even boarding a member the lady I met with when okay, that could be a good thing when he's older. So, yeah, it's worth investigating.

Speaker 3: 23:11

Yeah, totally no, it really is, and that kind of tip-taunting wasn't around, sort of you know a decade ago I suppose. So it's fascinating to me this thing now for people to be able to have access to.

Speaker 2: 23:22

Yes, another really important one. I wish I had a slightly better job myself with this record keeping. There's just so much paperwork from this journey and there's obviously a lot of money that you need to send to various professionals and providers, so being really good at paperwork, keeping track of expenses and documents and general information is really important. So we've got some tips on that in the book.

Speaker 3: 23:44

Yeah, that's right. I mean it is a bit like building a house sorry, with your journeys. There's lots of sort of moving parts to it, lots of things you do have to keep track of, and I mean, as we can do that a bit as part of our services, but there's also some responsibility for maintaining parents to be doing some of that themselves. Of course, that's right because, especially for the end of the process, you can need all the documents often at the end in order to bring your bubble home.

Speaker 2: 24:08

What else. We've got some information about photos and videos and just how you might document the process telling family and friends. One thing in the book there was very different takes on this, wasn't there, sam.

Speaker 3: 24:18

Yeah, there was. Yeah, I mean, some people were very open and comfortable about telling family in a very long and others, you know, perhaps they'd have sort of miscarried themselves before and didn't want to talk to people until they were sure about the process. I think some people felt they might be judged in their own communities and so we're more ready to tell them a little bit later.

Speaker 2: 24:39

Yeah, in my case I told very few people like it was such a for me, a very personal journey and I wasn't ready to tell people until my surrogate was very, very pregnant, probably left it late to tell people, but you know that worked for me. So I think it's a very personal decision really. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Journey length we've written a little bit here about the journey length. Just pick this bit out where it says it can range from 15 months to more than four years in some cases. But what's your view on what's the most typical, sam?

Speaker 3: 25:09

Oh look, it depends on your own situation. I mean, in some countries it will be a lot longer than others. If you're doing it in an altruistic environment like failure or Canada or UK, it can often be three years plus for a journey length, whereas countries where there's commercial surrogacy available, it can be more like sort of a two-year process perhaps. And I mean again, it depends on how successful you are with surrogate matching in which agency you choose. Some agencies have much longer match times than others. So those people who, for whom, time frames are important really important to get advice about that from experts like us, because there's such a variance in match times around the world there which, when it comes to the process of some providers are very good at keeping things moving and others, you could get bogged down for months in paperwork.

Speaker 2: 26:02

Yeah, and that brings back to looking after yourself, taking care of you and your partner and all you. If it's just a single person, just to make sure you get the right emotional support too. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:12

Yeah, I mean. The other thing I know we mentioned in that advice chapter is about the countries which are available and of course, they're constantly changing. You know we've got in the chapter here, we've got currently available in Georgia, but we just haven't learnt. You know looks like it will be closing down access to foreigners by the end of 2023.

Speaker 2: 26:27

Yes.

Speaker 3: 26:28

So you know that's going to cause further complications for people.

Speaker 2: 26:33

Yeah, yeah, get the right advice and there's some notes here on cost. Now Religibility, which again, if someone's listening to this and needs some help with, please reach out to growing families and can make up a whole plan really to help them. And then ongoing support.

Speaker 2: 26:47

Yeah, that's right, I've got to read one of my favourite little quotes out of the book that you wrote Sam. Actually, in Sam's opening chapter and introduction he shared something from his childhood which used some really beautiful visual words. So we recently put it at the end of the book is because it's just a reminder of what is needed for this journey. So, if you don't mind, sam is going to read it. Sure, may you have the courage to navigate the scraggly goat track, clamber down the steep cliffs and jump from the high narrow ledge into the cool, delightful water below For those really beautiful visual about it. You know it can be scary. It can be a big adventure. There's an unknown there. You've really got to put yourself out there. But I love the cool, delightful water below that. That's really probably an analogy of picking up your baby or your baby's born and falling in love.

Speaker 3: 27:34

Yeah, that's right. That's right Not to end on.