How to make the journey from BDR to VP of Sales | The GrowthPulse Podcast Ep3 with guest Dan Lodge

In this episode of the GrowthPulse Podcast longtime colleagues, collaborators, sales leaders & SAAS software experts Dan Bartels & Simon Peterson come together to bring to you some of the world's leading sales people, sales leaders, experts in Sales technology &  thought leaders in the best sales methodologies & techniques. Our goal is to share with you some of the lessons and coaching we have experienced during our careers to help you excel in your sales career.

In this episode, we interview Dan Lodge. Dan is a veteran of Salesforce, Alterian, Dropbox, BlueDot and Cascade. Dan talks about his journey from BDR to VP of Sales. 

SUMMARY

0.00 Welcome to the Growth Pulse podcast.
7:51 How LinkedIn is becoming less and less valuable as a direct channel for sales.
12:14 What is the role of the BDR in sales?
17:42 The importance of learning from your failures.
24:07 Dan shares two stories about the culture of the Australian business.
27:58 How do you make people feel wanted and enjoy their time?
33:39 How do you know when to stop investing in a person?
37:15 Sales is unique in that it has a built-in barometer measure scoreboard.
41:56 Everyone must speak the same language across the whole organisation.
48:58 Get involved in your customer’s business.
54:00 Creating an environment in the exec team where it’s well thought out and structured.
59:43 How AI is an awesome aggregator of knowledge, but you have to ask the right question.

Transcript

Daniel Bartels: 0:10

Welcome to the growth pulse podcast, where we take a deep dive in the world of business to business sales. We talk to some of the world's leading salespeople, sales leaders, experts in sales technology and thought leaders in today's best sales skills and techniques. In this episode, we're talking to Dan launch. Dan has worked with some of the world's most innovative sales organisations. He started his career as a BDR with Arterian merge his way through to being in leading strategic reconciles later, moving to Salesforce, where he was one of the leading account execs in their fastest ever growing portfolio of the marketing cloud. You rounded out his account exec career with Dropbox, probably to launch their enterprise solutions globally. It's definitely leadership. Dan was the global VP of sales of blue dot, a leading marketing platform, the geofencing space, most recently was the global VP of Sales for cascade, a business strategy tech platform. From the growth pulse team, please welcome your host, Daniel Bartels and Simon Peterson Simon, how are you?

Simon Peterson: 1:15

Good, Dan, how you doing?

Daniel Bartels: 1:16

I'm really good. How's your how's the the last sort of week or so been? You've been busy?

Simon Peterson: 1:21

LP that pretty busy. Let's just use and I went up to the farm for the weekend. spent three days at the imagi Awesome. Very relaxing, very cold. Lots of fires. I actually chop down a couple of trees for firewood too. Excellent. Excellent. Very busy. Yeah.

Daniel Bartels: 1:42

My I was down in Melbourne over the weekend, I had my daughter's 11th birthday. And she was the Harry Potter fan. So he went down to see the Harry Potter show Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. Very exciting. Good show. Lovely. It's been a cold weekend down in Melbourne, which is always nice. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we've got Dan. Dan. Yeah, so very excited. He's obviously a superstar in the in the SAS tech world and sales. Huge amount of experience. So very excited to talk to him. I'm super excited to sort of get an idea of his experience in sort of moving from big tech into the startup land and in all those things in between, but close some of the biggest deals that I've seen in his in his enterprise sales career. So that's a pretty exciting thing as well.

Simon Peterson: 2:35

Absolutely. And I believe he started as a BDR all those years ago. Can't wait to hear about it.

Daniel Bartels: 2:42

Absolutely. All right. Let's bring him in. Hold on, Dan. Hold on. Here we go.

Dan Lodge: 2:47

Welcome. So man, good morning. How are you? Both

Daniel Bartels: 2:51

very, very good, man. How was how was your weekend? Well,

Dan Lodge: 2:54

morning good. Yeah, it's good one actually. Birthdays catching up with friends and a fairly relaxing yesterday which was wonderful for those in the long weekend is perfect.

Simon Peterson: 3:08

We'll meet you you're still going to bond birthday weekend for me it's

Dan Lodge: 3:11

still down at Bondi might still live in the dream.

Daniel Bartels: 3:15

You're not part of this group of people complaining about the parent the trees going into it north or south Bondi. And they're all getting up in arms about it apparently.

Dan Lodge: 3:24

And you've got to complain that I'm English it's part of my DNA

Simon Peterson: 3:31

at Bondi

Daniel Bartels: 3:35

den like thanks for joining the podcast, sort of as as per the the intro might come with a with a with a significant resume. Like all things we all suffer from impostor syndrome. When you hear someone talk about yourself, you like hold on? Is that me? Yeah. So Dan, looking as we as we kind of intro, you know, you started as a BDR. You know, when we work together at Salesforce, you know, you were one of the leading account execs in the marketing cloud space after Dropbox working with our good friend, Charlie wood. And, and then went on to do a whole bunch of sales leadership roles after that. What do you reckon is the biggest difference or between being a BDR? Rep. What are your thoughts on that

Dan Lodge: 4:22

ad on a rep, that's a really good question. I think I think he's mindset right. I think there's a certain amount of mindset there that you understand you've got to get your small wins as a BDR. But they're not small wins to you, you know, as long as you're focused on your metrics and your numbers, I don't think they're dramatically different. No, I wrote down I think if you just get you know, you know what you've got to do to be successful. You know what you have to do it's, it's a proven equation, number of calls, number of meetings being Your brand, onwards and onwards. That said, though, then I know we had a conversation about this the other day. I don't know how I'd get on today. Being a BD, I think the world changed. What do you think that's different?

Simon Peterson: 5:15

Well, I think it's very different.

Dan Lodge: 5:20

Sorry, my, the reason I think it's different is I don't think it's as successful anymore. I was reading a study the other day, it was one of the VCs, and they said that, you know, I think even as close as 2020 20 40% of outbound meetings generated or pipeline closed was from BD Rs. And in the last year and a half, it's dropped down to about 80 19%. So obviously, the world's changed, I think we've got that great big elephant in the room with AI. But before we get to that, I think it's now a lot more about building your brand. And I think if you look at these reps that are being successful in certain verticals, not everyone, you know, maybe not the entire enterprise stuff, because they're sort of on a one to one relationship level. But people who are trying to generate inbound, a lot of it is building this business, building your own brand. And I think that it's such a big part of it now. And I think that people who don't embrace that, in don't embrace this, you know, sometimes it may not be you, you may find yourself, you know, a little bit pressed to say these things, it might even sound cheesy coming out of your mouth. But the reality is on 10, you've got to be there, you've got to be visible, you need to be the expert in that space is no longer about going in and just doing your phone calls or dusts. Just doing your emails and making sure your contents good. It's a bigger piece to it, it's a you've got to be in the right places, you have to be visible. You know, people don't pick up the phone call from cold calls as much anymore. So, you know, when's the last time you answered a call that you didn't know the number? It's pretty rare. So you need to be doing, you need to be visible, you need to be connecting with people, you need to be commenting on their posts, I think it's social selling has gone right, the way across that being a BDR now is as important as that building a brand as it is to build a PNA or even a CEO of your business. Yeah,

Simon Peterson: 7:29

I noticed a lot of BDR has probably rely too much on LinkedIn. What are your thoughts? I think I get a lot of LinkedIn messages from BDR. Does that go for the the presumptive close as they're introducing themselves? It's highly varying from my perspective.

Daniel Bartels: 7:51

Yeah, I

Dan Lodge: 7:51

agree with that. As far as as a direct channel to reach out. I think you're right. But I think that you need to be using LinkedIn in a different way. It's not about that presumption of close, I don't think it's not about you know, here's my email message, except me, and then I'm going to ask you for a meeting. I think that's gone. So, but I do think it's about, you know, like I said before, hearing in the places, you know, these groups in these other conversations with peers of people just get in there and really sort of be part of those conversations visibility.

Daniel Bartels: 8:29

I think the only other thing that's changed dramatically for an AE comparative to even when I started in sales, when I started my first direct b2b sales, I was an insurance broking. And we had a we had a full time role. It was a female filling the role. So she was an admin assistant, because it took so long for you to generate insurance contracts. It wasn't worth the business's time and effort to have me as a salesperson off the road, building a proposal. So you put on a full time executive to do that, well, we use tech to do that now. And managing my calendar. Well, I've got Calendly, and I've got all these things, to speed all those processes through. And I think so much of that, for that BDR role has now become superfluous, or it's just an unnecessary gatekeeping between what actually has to happen and to your point around having the having the right. Access and knowledge and business acumen I'm not interested in talking to a first year, salesperson for three months salesperson has no idea about the solutions or the products we're talking about or the problems that I'm having. I want to talk to the VP or the innovator, you know, long tenured strategic sales rep. Sure, no problem. You've been doing this for 15 years. Amazing. I want to talk to you. I don't want to talk to your admin system. That's not the person that I want to talk to. And I think so many mentioned tech and AI and so many of these Things are easy now for you too. I mean, he's the three of us. I don't have anybody else helping Bill put this together, you know, I'm pressing the buttons to make this podcast work. Whereas back in the day, we would have gone to a venue and there'd be someone who's sitting in the back room pressing the buttons and just wouldn't need that. So I think that role of that functionary below you, is becoming less and less valuable, and people see the gatekeeper process as unnecessary, which then ask the question of, okay, so how do I get my start? How do I step into sales? So I want to be a salesperson, you know, what's the? What's the thing that I need to do to step into that that first level?

Dan Lodge: 10:46

What do you mean as enrol or as in what? Well,

Daniel Bartels: 10:50

I know when I when I, you know, my very first sales role, I sold mobile phones. And if someone had to take a punt and said, you've never sold mobile phones before, I'm now happy for you to stand in a shop and pretend that you know how to sell mobile phones. Someone being a BDR, when you're stepping into a startup, or one of the larger tech firms you've never sold before, but I'm definitely not giving you a territory with a million dollar quota, or even a half million dollar quota when you've never sold before. That typically entered that entry point used to be a BDR. So if you don't have those roles anymore, or they're becoming less and less like there's, there's a much smaller pipeline of people coming through. How do you feel that?

Dan Lodge: 11:32

Sir? That's a really good question. I don't think I've even thought that far ahead. To be honest with you. I think that says a really interesting, right, the role must exist. Because there needs to be a way into it. There is maybe it's maybe as you said, then maybe not a BDR. Maybe it's more of a sales admin. Maybe it's maybe it's someone who can shadow or share or maybe there's certain maybe enablement becomes more focused around, you know, people who are shadowing and are actually doing the job rather than reading a book reading out of a textbook. Because there's certain things.

Simon Peterson: 12:14

Yeah, that's right. And I guess, you know, one of my experiences is when I'm talking to salespeople that are a bit more tenured and the role of the BDR, etc. I challenge you both to say it's how a sales person uses a BDR. And how they engage them in all of the activities of the sales cycle, to get the best out of them. So I'm not going to just ask them to call call A to F today and say, Get me 10 meetings, I'm going to sit down with my territory. I'm going to prioritise them, I'm going to have a conversation about the problems I get to solve. And I'm going to involve my BDR as a collaborator, rather than as a flunky that just goes and makes a bunch of calls. So I think, to your point, Dan, you know, starting out young in sales, you don't know what you're doing. As you work with a seasoned salesperson and do more meaningful tasks, you'll come up to speed faster, you'll get a good sense of what the problem you're trying to solve with your customer. And you'll get a flow of the sales cycle. And yes, you've got to do some of the mundane tasks. But I think our challenge is sales leaders is about inspiring our sales guys to use their videos way differently.

Dan Lodge: 13:24

Yeah, but then he put a little bit more pressure on the on the sales person, the AAA, for example, you know, everyone has a different way that I've worked with salespeople who are inclusive, want to be part of that and want to use you in the journey. And then I've got others, the typical lone wolf that don't want you anywhere in there. And all you're doing is going to the cafe, the cafe shop, a coffee shop, and just bringing back a latte. There are two different approaches to that. So there needs to be a certain pathway still, you know, you're you being a successful rep. A BDR. Rep can't just depend on who you've got as a as a mentor. Been No? Well,

Daniel Bartels: 14:06

what's the question, Dan? I mean, I agree and I, over our career have both been called lone wolves at different stages. But I don't think anybody would regard us now as being lone wolves. What do you think? What do you think the maturity curve? I think there's a thing that takes you from being one of the team into being a lone wolf. And then there's another maturity curve to get you out of it again, right? What do you think that looks like? I mean, in your, in your experience, I kind of know what what happened to me, but what was your kind of experience kind of going through that through that trajectory?

Dan Lodge: 14:38

Yeah, I think for a long time. I was very lucky when I was at alternative went through the BDR route that I worked with a guy called Chris Chu, and he's one of the best sales leaders. I will sales people I've ever met in my life. Right. And I feel like there was bits I understood what he was doing, but because it was a very small company. In a very small team, it really was just try and replicate little bits of it without understanding why he did it. And I felt that I got to this position where I've made it through with, you know, a relatively quick on the fee, you know, a bit of charisma and I felt I got to a certain point. But then it all came crashing down with with one big particular deal. And I realised that I was nowhere near I was absolutely nowhere near this deal. I didn't understand anything. And when I started to unpick it and unpack what was going on, there was so many things I didn't know about selling pro the say, the process, their buying process, who I was selling to single threaded, yeah, yeah, loads of these issues. And it really got me to start thinking about what was important to me as a salesperson how I need to do that. And that was my first change. And then the second change is when I started thinking about after that had worked, and I've been super successful. We've had that great couple of years at Salesforce, I had two wonderful years at Salesforce. And the third year was tough, right? My third year was a lot tougher from Salesforce, I think you then you manage to evolve quicker into selling a different product, space, and the culture, I think you got a bit quicker than I did. And that put me in a place that I didn't like being in, which was I wasn't number one, I wasn't the top dog and I hated that. So again, that stopped me thinking the same process I went before, which was great. I've been this lone wolf, copy from a lone wolf, I'd learned all the process that I felt I had, then it was time to reassess again. You know, and I think when it's not going well, that's when it changed challenges. You I think Roosevelt said, calm seas don't make a good sailor. And I think yeah, it's absolutely, you know, if I was just surviving that box, that box at Salesforce, I can carry on being successful, when it changed, even within Salesforce didn't evolve quick enough. And I think everyone would have said the same thing. It was, you know, what's happened to downloads he's gone from, you know, Where's he now and I think that was a real key part in in me becoming less than a lone wolf. And really understanding what I needed to do and how I needed to leverage other people.

Simon Peterson: 17:15

Wow, what a story. I love it.

Dan Lodge: 17:19

You

Simon Peterson: 17:22

know, am I allowed to ask about how old you are? Or how many years of sales experience before you like that?

Dan Lodge: 17:32

Yeah, I mean, it was it's, I mean, it's constantly evolving, right? It's not beat around the bush. But that particular one was 2016. Well, that was it. When will we at Salesforce?

Daniel Bartels: 17:42

Well, so I was 12. I joined 12. So that's me. Yeah.

Dan Lodge: 17:50

So was that 10 years ago? 30, mid 30s.

Daniel Bartels: 17:54

Yeah. And that was that was the evolution into, you know, we went from selling what was radian six and Buddy Media. And then there wasn't evolution of social media tech at the time, they acquired exact target, we had to go from selling a product that you sold to one group of people to he was this entire other suite of solutions. Again, you see this in organisations all the time, right. So everybody is trying to find that next add on that they can either go back and sell to their current customers, or expanding a new market or either expanding vertically within a regional you might be going regionally or whatever it may be. And just because you were successful last year, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be successful next year. Yeah. And I think it's actually sort of all people that Ed Sheeran talking about this on a clip on the weekend. And he talks about the fact that, you know, his greatest his greatest steps forwards, in his career came from abject failure, where he launched a song and it failed, or he ran a concert, no one turned up or, you know, all these things that he learned along the way. And he said, I'm actually really interested in the people who are putting out crap music. He said, I think I mentioned in the on the factor that that where did they come from? And how far are they evolved? And now I can kind of see someone in two or three years that I'm going to be able to collaborate with because of where they've evolved into AI. That's a really we all looking inside our like teams and in our organisations for that person who's sitting at the top. What we don't look for isn't that person that Dan and I've worked with some great people have gone from BDR into account executive One of them's sitting in Singapore now. And she's a She's a phenomenal partner manager. And that those transitions of learning along the way, and she's had some significant failures along the way. I'm sure she'll get her on them. We'll ask her about it, but we focus on those wins so much rather than the times that you deal slipped or the customer said no, or you didn't get that promotion or you didn't get that wrong. What do you what do you how do you react from that?

Dan Lodge: 19:57

That I mean, that's exactly it. I mean, that's all represent, if you don't learn from your failures, when are you when are you going to learn? There's no, there's no helping you. You know, sometimes you go through this place, I've said before, when I was super successful things were working well, everything just seemed to work. And I just felt I was doing the same thing. And then as soon as there was a bump in the road, that was when it started, that's when I had to learn from that. And I think a lot of that comes down to evolving as a person, no longer rely on your sales skills, you got to keep learning. So one of those was becoming a lot more data driven. You know, I really started it in the matrix in which fit into it, you know, there's a, there's a reason why the person who making the most phone calls sending the most emails, what the content is, all of that stuff is really, really important. And the person who's constantly out there, building their brand, having conversations, it's, it's a game that you you need to be visible, you need to be out there, you need to be connecting, you need to be learning, you need to be absorbing so many different data points. That's why it's the best oddest job in the world.

Daniel Bartels: 21:08

Yeah, yeah.

Simon Peterson: 21:10

And if I guess, Dan, you've pivoted again, into a different type of role after being a salesperson you've led sales teams now.

Dan Lodge: 21:20

Yeah, absolutely. So lucky. I guess

Simon Peterson: 21:23

my. Sorry, the delays? Not great for me. But yeah, so I was gonna say, as you move into that sort of sales leadership, and you kind of turn the tables now you're seeing people in your team coming through the ranks coming up against adversity, you're clearly judged as to how you manage your teams. How do you use the knowledge of yourself pivoting? In to help bring others?

Dan Lodge: 21:53

Yeah, it's a good question. So I'm and I think the most important thing I've found about being a leader is, is people you're managing, you know, you're not managing robots, everyone is different. Everyone learns differently. Everyone has different motivators in their life. Everyone learns, everyone has different things that they want to achieve, you know, family pressures and whatnot, I think the most important thing about being a leader, whether it's sales leader, anything is you need to know who you've got in your team and what motivates them. I think that is such such an important part of everything and something that we, as sales leaders, we overnight, overlook, we just look at numbers, and we just look at people, and we push people, and we push people. And it doesn't work like that. There's more important things in the world and for people's lives, you know, this is a job, right? It's great, we have loads of money, but it's a job, we're not getting kids from cancer, we're selling said, we're selling technology. And I think that's really important that not everybody is motivated by the same way you are, not everyone has the same goals that you have. So you can't treat everybody the same. So that I think that was a key piece. And then somebody comes back, because we said before, then it comes back to the metrics, then it comes back to the numbers, and building the right environment. So I think as a sales leader, not only do you need to learn about you people, you also need to understand about the environment in which you build that environment, it needs to be open, it needs to be collaborative, you know, and it needs to fit your people. You know, we talk a lot about culture. You know, a culture is not just putting a ping pong table in an office, you know, culture is about encouraging people to go, when you know what I think, Dan and I, when we were at Salesforce, that culture of us just sitting in that room, going through the whiteboard, anything was on the table, you know, you didn't feel like an idiot, you're allowed to have your conversation, you know, and encouraging that environment in which I learn was really, really important. I think that's, that's another one that, you know, PC sales leaders have an awful look as well.

Daniel Bartels: 24:07

We had some really interesting culture things that people people walk over. And you mentioned, putting a dartboard or a ping pong table in the office got nothing to do with culture. And I walk into so many offices and say, when people miss this, so I'll tell these two stories, and it's probably worthwhile. We had two things. One was if you had a deal that you were going to close. You basically were allowed to go and book out. We weren't allowed to we just did it right. In fact, we help each other we've had to had one meeting and we had to book right. And if somebody caught that you'd book that meeting room the whole day. Because you were trying to get a deal close on that day or the end of the month or quarter or whatever was happening, whatever the compelling event was, we would actually all collaborate and work together and say hold on, bottles or Lodgy or, or Pete Graves has got to deal with clothes. And we can't back to back book this this one because this was the closing room. And this was where we knew that that person was enclosing the room. So you'd help out your colleagues because you knew that they needed to have that room the whole day. And we had to cover their back the fact that nobody else was gonna go and step in and go, Oh, you need to get a Bondi for because that's one of the that's the closing room get out this the closing. And we had this other thing with one point, Dan, and a little sock business on the successes. But this is. So we had this phenomenal leader. When we called Susan son ledger who went on out of Salesforce to go and lead. She left ran Octa SRE and Splunk. And one day she was she was asking, you know, what makes this culture of this Australian business that she was running, so phenomenal. And lodging, and I was sitting there having a having a beer with her at some event in Chicago or somewhere. And I said, I'll tell you what it is. VG, pull up, pull up your pull up, apparently. What are you talking about? And we've got these colourful socks on. And I pulled mine up said, here's this colourful socks. And she's like, What are you talking about, and I turned around to four or five, the other guys had put your pant leg up, and everyone went no straightaway, what you're talking about. And everybody was wearing a pair of these socks. And we hadn't bought them for the event nobody had talked about, when we go away, you've got to put these socks on. They were our business time socks. This was when we're a team, we're wearing the socks. And those are the things that happened in the organisation underneath it, right. And it became so critical and so crucial to who we were as a team that like these little community, things that we built over time. No,

Dan Lodge: 26:57

I think the other bit, Dan, is that I bought 10,000 pairs, and I was given away for free probably made everyone feel the same.

Daniel Bartels: 27:10

But I think but I love it. Okay, well, what's a team, right? When you see people, when you see groups of people do those things? You know, you, that's we've all we've all watched international sporting events. And when all of a sudden the people that aren't even playing know the team song, and they all know it, and they all sing it. Like that's what builds and drives a community. And then when that team is struggling, they still all turn up and buy a ticket, because that's what that means to get behind a group and actually drive a culture and driving motivation. And I think too often we see leaders, HR people, whoever talk about, I'm going to put some, you know, there's a constant meme keeping around LinkedIn and Instagram at the moment about you know, the pizza party does. That's not what builds a team.

Dan Lodge: 27:58

It's a hard one because you,

Simon Peterson: 28:00

it sounds like most of that is organic.

Dan Lodge: 28:04

So you go through, sorry. That's all right.

Simon Peterson: 28:08

It sounds like a lot of what you two are describing there is very organic, in terms of its team building. So Nobody forced you into stocks. Nobody forced you into behaving the way you did it at that meeting room. I guess as a leader now, how do you how do you encourage that sort of behaviour? And I think you kind of touched on it before you make people feel wanted and enjoy their time, etc? Yes, you've got to focus on the numbers. But there's something else in there that you're kind of describing this builds an organic feeling that the team's really doing well.

Dan Lodge: 28:43

Yeah, look, I think you've got to be there ready to invest in people, you've got to be there, they've got to get, you've got to have their back. First things first, right? It's a cutthroat environment sales. So everybody needs to know that they have your back. And a good sales leader has your back, they have your back above his boss, you know, when they are when they don't, it's too obvious. The culture is too toxic, you need to protect and you need to encourage, but everybody must be accountable to that. So everybody in that team who wants to be accountable, must pull their way. If you say you're going to do certain things, then great, then you build that innovative cultural, where teamwork, I mean, you still needs to be competitive, you still need to have the leaderboard, who's top dog, but you can't be It can't be all about that, because that then changes the culture. If you don't have that environment before, then it becomes a typical sales person thing, which is a one the top dog I'm doing that, but are you adding more to your team? I think again, in my evolution as a salesperson. I've gone through that piece. I feel like now it's more important for me to add value to people as well as sell big deals.

Simon Peterson: 29:54

Yeah, great.

Daniel Bartels: 29:56

So I mean, you're actually really good at that. I mean, you know, we've worked together for a long Time now, and I was always struck by what you know, when when we look at our teams the ability to look at those people that are performing as well as the people that are not performing. And how do you either have some difficult conversations sometimes because people can be in the wrong role or just not be in the right space in their lives right now for taking on and have you had those those tough conversations? But but also how do you how do you support the person that's sitting at the bottom as well as the person that the person is sitting at the top? Because then you can't just roll out the same motivation tactic for the two people? I mean, how did how do you approach that?

Simon Peterson: 30:39

Look, I think a little bit about what D two just talked about, Dan, look, I think respecting people, you just get to know them. And I think I've worked with world leaders in my life, some that I would absolutely imitate, and then some that I would run a mile from being anything like, and I think the leaders that I really resonated with in my formative years, I didn't feel like they were my boss, they were genuinely interested in the ideas I had, were genuinely interested in. me wanting to learn a bit more about things. So as a young person growing up, I was genuinely curious. So take the flip side of that, I hire really smart people, but most of them have got pretty significant background, you know, some of come out of the military, others have flown jet aeroplanes or jumbo jets, to name a few of that sort of left field people I've hired over the years, I hired the bass guitarist of friends or rum at one point, you may know like Selten, I, you know, it's, and I don't only hire people that feel but I guess what I'm saying is those sort of people have done something in their background, are genuinely curious. And I think, as a leader, I then want to talk to people that are just starting out in their career. So I'm really curious about them, what motivates them, and 99 times out of 100, these people have got a wonderful story. So once you get behind the story of the person you're leading, and what motivates them a little bit about their family, you talk to them about hey, look, that presentation you did the other day, that was pretty shit, wasn't it? Let's have a chat about how you felt going into it. What you thought about beforehand, did you prepare? As you're delivering it? Did you know what you're going to talk about? What do you want to leave the prospect with? And you do it in such a way that it's not combative. I know everything and you don't? And I think then the next step is, rather than me telling that person had done a good presentation, it's, I think they know how to do it, you tell me, what would you do differently next time. And then we workshop together? I'd say very much the nature of it is and it's time consuming, right? But you can typically knock off a conversation like that about 30 minutes. And if you're genuinely curious about the person you dig into, then you understand them, don't want to do better for you. And they'll come and ask you. And I think the other thing that is absolutely critical is you foster that. So it's not just me to my team, it's people amongst each other. So you're allowed to ask a dumb question, you're allowed to say, I don't know what to do next in my deal. And if you have a bunch of people around that, see that I'm not going to be overly critical of everybody that makes mistake. The team themselves will start talking to each other, and opening up and learning. So I think that's, that's one of the secrets.

Dan Lodge: 33:39

Simon on that really, really? Absolutely. I agree with absolutely everything there. Obviously, you're an expert in this. I have a question for you, if that's alright, on this kind of podcast, how do you know when to eggs me, as you know when to stop investing in the person? How do you know when you've created that you want to invest time in people? How do you know when enough is enough? There's other places that I can be focusing on or helping the other rest of the team and we may have to manage this person out of the business for example.

Simon Peterson: 34:14

I can think of quite a few of those over the years. Look, I think, you know one particular incident that I had with a pretty good salesperson that you know, we we got on with it was all good. I felt I invested a lot of time in helping them and and I got a lot of angst deck, a lot of anger, a lot of just not really wanting to engage in a two way conversation. So they weren't angry about something their personal life. They weren't angry about other things. They just weren't vested in us talking openly to each other. And then when the numbers started to come online, you just and I'd always said look, if I've got a problem with a person, I'm usually pretty honest with them upfront. here's where it's going. Let's work together. And if it doesn't get there thing, though, and I remember the conversation I had, it's so mean, it's, it's time to go, we've had this conversation. But the point I gave up on that is when the two way conversation wasn't being entertained, it was me trying to lean in and be curious. And all I got was a lot of angst and frustration, directed at me. And that's, you know, that's a shame, I've had a couple of those. I've had others where I'm really, really good friends with the person. And I've had to let them go. And that's the toughest one, that's that really is tough. And the person I'm thinking of, is actually a reference for Him in His next role. So it was never personal. But it was I had to separate what was right for the company, and what was right for the person. And that person is doing exceptional things in technology elsewhere. So, you know, I think you do have to give up at some point on it. The tell for me, is when they stopped investing in a two way conversation.

Dan Lodge: 36:03

Yeah, and I think you've just said a really important piece as well, not only that, understanding from you know, you read people obviously, being a leader, but then not investing. The other part, I think, was a really interesting point you made, which is surprises, if only for birthdays, it can't be a surprise, if someone knows they're gonna get, they're having these conversations, it can't be the, hey, this is your performance review. And they go what I had no idea, it's got to be documented, they need to know, everything needs to be accountable, the the numbers and the the expectations, you know, there needs to be almost a 10 charter in place, I want you to commit to win. And I want you to commit to do these other things, you got to update Salesforce, you got your hand over doc, this way, you've got to engage with SES and the CSM team in this way. And once you've committed to that, then I've got something that we've all got as a base mark and a benchmark. And from that commitment, then there's no surprises because you've not done this, this, this and this, and I've got real examples, it no longer becomes personal, it no longer becomes like you, it's because you didn't do the site, the five or six things.

Simon Peterson: 37:13

Yeah, yeah. And I think

Daniel Bartels: 37:15

sales is kind of unique in that perspective. Because unlike many other roles, we have a built in barometer measure scoreboard, of what your results are, what, on whatever timeframe, you measure them. And typically, even if you're on a annual number, I'm recording the numbers along along the way. If you're on a quarterly and monthly, weekly, daily, whatever you'd like, you know, along the way, how I'm performing, you know, if you're in retail, and you got to you've got a daily number, you know, by lunchtime, I'm not going to get there today, right? If you're on a monthly number, you know, on the weeks through the month, that, hey, I haven't I just don't have the rungs on the board that this is going to look pretty bad. And I think there's an ownership on on leaders to be able to say to their people, it's not just the number. It's the things that go towards the number. And yes, you can swing and close a big deal and get yourself out of trouble. But do you have the pipeline Have you got the general motions happening behind that, that this can be consistent that you're going to perform at the level that we continue to afford to pay you the way we're paying you. Because we don't produce anything else. Salespeople only produce new revenue, we don't produce continued revenue. That's account management, that's a different role altogether. You know, and I think the, the, you know, for us as leaders, though, we've got to look at, it's not just the outputs, it's the things that gets you to the outputs that we have to measure them on. And we have to coach them on and work people along the way. But I think you've also got to own that as a salesperson as well. And you've got to understand if I'm not getting success, and if I'm not getting that leadership from my boss, and sometimes you won't get it sometimes that person may be a phenomenal leader for 80% of the team but you just don't get along. It's on you are you gonna go and get that ship from somebody else that mentor ship or find a coach or whatever it is right? Talk to two level boss whatever the story is, you've got to kind of do that as well, but as leaders or one that story and say is this person, or are we giving them all the all the tools to win?

Dan Lodge: 39:22

Yeah, it's an interesting one down especially in a big business where you understand where it's a sausage machine, you know what goes in, you know what comes out roughly right? But he's also really important in some of the smaller organisations and some of the smaller organisations and you are the barometer. So I must trust you as a salesperson. I must trust you as a sales team to do what's needed to be done. Because then from then we have an early barometer and how do we have product market fit? Yeah, how are we selling into the rice base? Are we really going after our ideal customer, you know, and without understanding that doing the right things we never know. And if we're too if we're a year late on that, on finding out these numbers, or we can't trust the people, we're gonna make bad business decisions as leaders, you know, especially leaders who are trying to steer the ship in the right direction I've been in, in places before where there wasn't a great product market fit. And that's a really important thing. And that's not the sales person's fault. But it is, there's a little bit on the sales person to provide that feedback so that those decisions can be made.

Daniel Bartels: 40:32

I think that's an interesting question there about the the actual role of marketers versus salespeople, right. And, you know, people think marketers are advertisers, and they're not that they build markets, they, they build an understanding of where does our product fit in where to see them. And you know, we've all three of us on this call, have have worked in organisations where, because we're big enough, we probably don't have any product market fit. But we're big enough to kind of RAM this stuff down a whole bunch of people's throat, and actually create product market fit rather than there fundamentally being one at the beginning. And a market shifts, because you've got a big, big German brands are big American brands sitting on top of this. And as a result, everybody thinks it's good. It isn't necessarily the case. And there's a whole bunch of competitors, who's probably got a better product than you. But they don't have as wide a wider sales team or as good a fit to just getting people through the door to run those transactions. So it's an interesting sort of challenge for organisations.

Simon Peterson: 41:39

Isn't that part of the fun working for small businesses? To working for a really big one or two and your career? Down? I know, that's your path.

Dan Lodge: 41:47

Oh, God, it is it is? Absolutely. But before we take that one, I'll just back to Dan's conversate come comment. I think one thing I believe, is, especially in a smaller company, everything must mean that big companies are right, everything must be aligned. And I think the most important thing about this is everybody, everybody must speak the same language. Because you get so many places where there are bits between what's the marketer speaking, I'm speaking, you know, conversions, click rates, etc. That's not the same language, that the salesperson I'm talking about pipeline generated. And having a consistent conversational consistent language across the whole organisation is massively important. And it's important because what you what the market is seeing what the salesperson is seeing, the customer success team is saying, needs to be adopted or understood by product by engineering, because they're the people who are taking the organisation in the right direction. So we should be thinking about what's the pain that we're solving for? That's important, and what's the impact, and that must be consistent across the whole organisation, because like you said, that building, building markets is important, but you need everything. If you're building a market without the right product to put into that, well, then you go in, in the wrong direction. So yeah, that's something I certainly have to present have come across and uncover and being on the tougher end of the harder part of you know, sales is the easy people to point the finger at, you're not, you're not doing enough, but the market is not getting the right results, or providing that feedback to each other and have the wrong KPIs. And in that we have the wrong ones for product as well, then, you know, we're gonna have a maximum messed up business, but some of you right, I have been in that that place between larger company, I mean, at the time, Salesforce wasn't the behemoth it is today. So I presume it doesn't have didn't have the same things. There were some politics there. But it was always an incredibly well oiled machine. And I think there's some really key points that we need to take. And again, I mentioned the beginning of the podcast, it's a mind shift, a mindset shift. It really is if you want to go and move into a move from Salesforce and SAP, whoever, and you want to go into startup roles, well, then you can't you've got to go with your eyes wide open, you got to go in expecting that you The buck stops with you. Everything you must do you must wake up in the morning thinking depends on your seniority in the company whatsoever, but every time you want to do a job, you must make sure it's done. I don't know how many times we're the first organisation that will Tyrion with with the management there and it was simple question like, right. I need to print out these contracts. Is that do we have a printer? No. Do we have paper? No. It was just getting your car down the road, go to office works and buy one. That was the answer. Uh, but yeah, that was a mindset. It was like I can't get it over. Otherwise, that's going to waste half a day. Yeah, you know, conversations about things that are all sorts of irrelevant. So it's certainly I believe, a massive mindset. But there's some, there's some really important things that you, you can take from that, I think, make sure you've got a really strong value prop at something that bigger organisations tend to do better than small organisations, smaller organisations tend to have a good piece of technology. And do they have a market fit? Do they have you know, is it a CEOs, vanity? Or engineers vanity that we're fixing here? Do you have a very strong value prop? And then the other part, I think that the biggest gap that we always fell into or had fallen into is, do we really understand our target market? Do we really understand that target market? Do we know what we're trying to do here? Do we know what they do? You have you think about that, as Salesforce has moved and progressed into even industry focuses, it's great about the industry focus that bringing in really smart people from that industry, they're bringing in retail experts, they're bringing in car manufacturing experts. And that's great, because that knowledge, you can't just develop a product and go to market without doing a day's work in that environment. You know, we were selling blue.it was, we're selling to fast food. And we worked out there was only two people in the organisation who never worked in a fast food organisation before. But that's a real means than how it works, right? We all needed to see what their pains were we needed to, we need to look behind the counter, we need to see what the burger comes out and put the sauce on and serve the people. People come through the carpet, we have no understanding of that. So really define that target market and learn about it is things that I think it's obviously comes down to resourcing, you know, small organisations don't have that luxury, bring in the CEO of Reno or whatever it is, and bring them in, it's the hard thing to do.

Daniel Bartels: 47:07

So how did you fix that problem? You're? You don't you don't have any fast food knowledge. And you know, you guys are geofencing business? How do you close the gap?

Dan Lodge: 47:18

And you look, you have to you have to get out there and do it's come back to this startup mentality. You know, we even got the team at 1.2. So what we were doing a blue dot was the clinical process that whole process from order, and then you pick it up. So we even created a process where we wanted the team to be in fast food restaurants, I wanted them in there, I wanted to see how many people will come how many cars were coming through, what was the typical experience for people, how many people were served, how many people turned away how many people got in saw the line was too big, really understand that and that just simply came from, I want you to go and sit outside there. I want you to go and sit down once you record it, it was also good because then you could go and speak to the customer and say, Hey, I know your environment, because I was actually set out there on Thursday afternoon. And I know you had this many people come through that many people through the the drive thru. Therefore, if you could improve, improve your process by 30 seconds, 40 seconds, whatever it was, you're starting a conversation about business value. Again, no longer about a piece of technology, which is a Locate piece of technology, you're having a conversation about 50 cars coming through and saving 30 seconds. Well hold on a minute, times that by how many franchises Do you own? How many does are there in the in the you know, in the States, and you've got a business case, and learning about this case, it also helps you then define the product you want to build, because you understand the pain point. But Dan, it was, you know, it was no better than just go in there and sit there and spend time in there. Yep. Kalos

Daniel Bartels: 48:58

Oh, yeah, I think a lot of reps forget that. Right? Which is just get involved in your customers business somehow. I mean, you know, we all worked with a particular Dutchman who was renowned for it, and he would go and do do time right along different organisations or do ride alongs right and and for and he's a senior senior strategic rep now and now runs teams, but he would do it regularly. And you know, I think that's a it's a it's a lost art sometimes of how do you go and have that conversation with a person who doesn't even think they want to buy from you yet they've got no interest in this But realistically, I've in my entire sales career. I've never had a customer or prospect say no. To someone who wants to come and learn about their business.

Dan Lodge: 49:44

Can you remember that story? Absolutely. The guy in San Francisco who stole a saw one of the biggest deals ever at Salesforce. And he actually went and got a job there. Yeah.

Daniel Bartels: 49:55

So this is so this is this is a great story, right so And this at the time for about five or six years was the largest deal that Salesforce had ever done. And it was to what was the insurance company called?

Dan Lodge: 50:08

State Farm, I

Daniel Bartels: 50:09

think State Farm. Yeah. And so he wanted to go and deal at State Farm. And as part of it, he said, Well, I need to, I need to genuinely understand where their pain points. He went not he went and got a job at State Farm. So he told him what he was doing. And he said, Listen, I'm going to come and work part time in your in your call centre. And I mean, okay, great. Sure. And they paid him. And he did the metrics. He worked there for six months. So the story goes, well, I'm paraphrasing now, somebody else's anecdote, but this is a pretty well known story. have worked for six months. These are all the problems you have. Do you want to talk about this? Absolutely. Because leadership didn't know these things were happening didn't know that problems. Didn't know there was solutions to them. And for years, they were the largest customer at Salesforce by a country mile. And he built the biggest deal by a factor of two or 3x, I believe at the time, but it was the world's big was the world's best right along.

Simon Peterson: 51:13

Yeah, but absolutely. It's interesting, I guess, business. There's so many anecdotes like that. I think you're alluding to it before there was certain garbage collection company that we were selling too. And he got up at 4am. And literally wrote on it that garbage trucks to understand process from collecting through to the, to the Depo. That's done. I don't I don't think every sales guy would do that. But he was certainly successful. Because he needed the business. And I think there's a certain amount of respect he got, because he was actually genuinely interested in the problem solving, not sort of putting it on a PowerPoint, putting it in practice.

Daniel Bartels: 52:01

becomes a different door open. And when you say, Hey, listen, I've got a six month case study here, I want to share with you you didn't pay any money for and I'm an expert in this in this technology space. Do you want to talk about it? Yes, of course. I do.

Simon Peterson: 52:13

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Bartels: 52:18

So Dan, you We alluded before, you know, you've gone from BDR, to senior strategy, ie to running teams worked in big tech worked in small businesses. If you had to go back and do a couple of things differently, or, you know, what are those key lessons out of all of that? Can they?

Dan Lodge: 52:36

So a really good question, then. And I think one of them, one of the biggest mistakes I made most probably fairly recently, was not, was trying to be trying to please everybody trying to try to make sure that everybody was happy with what I was doing. I was I was afraid. Because of getting the job, I didn't really push back enough. I didn't push back and say, I've been here, I've done this, I know where this is going. We're not at the point where you think we're at, I think that was an important part, I should have pushed back there. You know, the company is in a great spot, really good position. And I think it needed a little bit more. It needed a little bit more insight. Maybe it needed two or three voices like mine coming through to say, actually, we're not ready to get this point right now. I mean, look, it was a hard time, you know, we had the industry changed, right? It was growth at all costs, and then it became building sustainable business. And we weren't at a point ready to build a sustainable business. And I think we all needed to understand where we were. So first, I should have pushed back. And really, you know, made sure that and the reason I didn't push back is because I didn't have the actual underlying data. And I think that's a really key thing, right, which is, we think we're the smartest people in the room. But the reality is, this has been done before. It's been done by many, many people earlier than us smarter than us. So that data is out there. So being able to use this data, being educated, being knowledgeable in this space, to say, this is a sales cycle, it typically looks like this, this is how you got to if you're going to sell a million dollar deal, you these are the things that has to fit to it's going to take this or it's going it's going to need this many leads, and it's going to be this many conversations and you're going to need this many teams in your team is going to be structured this way. I think having that data and being knowledgeable on that is really important to push back, what would have been for me, and just, you know, being able to have those conversations. And the second part is creating an environment in the exec team. So it's always great doing it in your team in your sales team. But creating an environment in the exec team, where it's everyone's able to have these conversations. And these conversations are well thought out We're moving in the right direction. You know, you're not afraid to say something, it's not going to get vetoed, because someone has a bigger job title. Yeah. And I think that's an important part of that, that that's, that's you need to build that environment got to live at the top. Because ultimately, it's the top down, that creates and defines a culture. Maybe that's values. Yeah.

Daniel Bartels: 55:26

What about going through yourself, Korea? So if you think about as an IC, going back on, you know, what, what are the things you make sure you did more of? Or you do less of?

Dan Lodge: 55:35

Me? Yeah, I think, like explained earlier on. I've been through that journey, where things are good things are bad. And you've got to look at the times in the fixes piece, I think the reality is you never stop learning. Never stop learning never stop getting too precious, that you think you know, everything. So never stop learning. The other one is, keep looking again, at that data and those numbers, you know, there is no, there's no substitute for doing the effort doing the time. There's no substitute for building the relationships, they'll last with you forever. Look at them as relationships for more than just your current work environment. We live in Australia, right? We're going to bump into these people forever and ever and ever and ever and ever, to be calm down. It's a big country town. And we need to make sure we have these conversations, we respect our relationships, and we can use them on and on. So have a view that whenever you speak to someone you're delivering trust value. It's really important to them in communication, and constantly keep this open, right? You're doing a great job with this podcast, be invisible, keep talking. The reality is, you know, in a relationship with a senior exec can't just exist, because it's two days before the end of the quarter. Yes, don't just exist, it's gone beyond was normal. So look, I think, doing the basics, right, then listening to myself a lot more listening to learning what's going on in what I'm doing. And yeah, I mean, I've always been lucky work with really good people. So it's a team sport, as much as you're the one with the You're the head. It's certainly a team sport, and everyone needs to come on that ride with you. And you've got to, they've got to believe in you. They've got to want to help you. You've got the best essays, the best CS team in the world. Well, let them want to work on your deals, and no one else.

Daniel Bartels: 57:31

Yep. Now we're now we're getting close to the top of the hour. But we did kind of mention this in in the pre prep to this. It's on everyone's sort of general conversation at the moment. What are for the team predictions, AI? Plus sales plus BDR? What are your thoughts?

Dan Lodge: 57:54

Mine? Mine is really good question. I think that we just spoke a minute ago about the expertise of all the knowledge that we have, when you I wish I had that extra knowledge to be able to make a better decision. AI has got that. So maybe it changes the job of the VP, maybe that VP no longer becomes the person who's got the knowledge who's been around the block, maybe they become somebody who is better at two things one is selling. Right. And then the second part is actually looking at enabling their team. So maybe it becomes maybe you have two people in that organisation that one's the salesperson and one's the person to enable or getting the most of them or knows the data models, I think that it no longer has to be one person at the top. And I think the other thing is, there is going to be no substitute in the discount exact place for people and good people. And I think that people in that space should get the credit they deserve. Sales is the best job. Sales Management, it's great. But it's not as good as it's not important to the company as the people doing the job. So therefore start respecting that and start bringing that up, they should be the most highly paid people in the company. Because they're the ones who've got that relationship. They've built that network. If I want to go on sale to banks, who do I go and speak to, you know, I don't go and speak to I want to make sure that that salesperson is the one who's connecting me to it. And it's not just their knowledge of, you know, revenue structures and you know, enablement strategies. It's someone who's actually going out there and doing the sales piece. I'll pass that over there.

Daniel Bartels: 59:43

So I'm What do you reckon?

Simon Peterson: 59:45

That's why I love that. Yeah. Well, I'll just get back to Jim. His comment there. It's, it's incredible. It's about doing the extra effort. And I think that tie that into a I think for Mi AI is an awesome aggregator of knowledge. And I think it's, you ask the right question. At the moment, we're pretty nascent, right? So we're asking questions, and we're getting a wealth of knowledge and content back, but I think it's going the extra mile to take the content, and do something useful with it for your customer. And I think, you know, I watch my 13 year old doing her homework, and do I think AI will make her submit better papers, possibly. But will she learn anything from it? Possibly not? A similar thing, I'd say to the the ad or the salesperson going out there trying to make a difference for their, their prospect? Sure, use the I use the data. And then Danny mentioned it. I think AI right now is a better aggregator of data are faster aggregator of data and intelligence about a topic on whether the head, but you got to put it in the hands of somebody that's going to go the extra mile with it. I think that's what's different to an AI. I like your thought about splitting the top, your sales guy is the most important part of the business. I think I partially agree with you. I think a poor sales team can destroy a business, a great sales team won't make just a brilliant business, I think you've got to lead lead the charge, I think you've got some wonderfully focused individuals who are salespeople, somebody needs to point them in the right direction and give them encouragement. I mean, I'm talking to two dancer, two salespeople, and, you know, sometimes we're edge egos are fragile, your motivation is limited, etc, you're gonna need to have somebody to push that in the right direction. That's my two cents worth. And I think we've probably gone over.

Daniel Bartels: 1:01:56

Yeah, I mean, I'll just have my passport last week before we wrap up, but it's, you know, AI is never going to replace humans. As in, I'm never going to have a long term relationship with a with an AI. My customer is never going to be an AI and it's an it's highly unlikely that you'll have everyone is just run between two API's talking to each other, but that's not the world. So people, if I break it down to the most basic transactions, it's gonna be a commoditized conversation. If my local coffee shop and the barista isn't AI, I'm gonna choose to go on to some human who fought for some for a coffee, who's actually going to engage with me and understand me and my family. And my history isn't what did I do and cares about me for the weekend, right? If that's all replaced with, I can't see a world where that's replaced with vending machines, because they've been those technologies have been around for a long time, and it's never ever worked. So I don't see the human aspect of within organisations in decision making being completely replaced by AI, we have to learn to use it, we have to learn to become more functional with it. I mean, even even in our sales careers. I recall when CRM didn't exist, there were a foreign concept, right. And that's now just become part and parcel of what you use to manage your flow of information where I will be, I will probably become one of those things, but it's not gonna I'm not going to replace is your customers still going to be a human? You're a human selling to them, people, you work with a humans? And how do I operate in that space, I've got a whole bunch of additional tools and then making either more effective, or they change where they operate. But at the end of all of these tools, there are still humans. And I think, you know, Dan, you mentioned sales is one of the best roles in the world. I agree. It's one of the hardest roles in the world. And people stepping into sales need to understand you lose more than you win. And there are very, very few careers in which you lose significantly more than you then you win. And if you can deal with that, like that's, that's the bit that people get upset about in sales that you lose so often. And you've got to have a thick skin as a result of that. If you can get through that you can use AI can use this technology, then you will make a lot of money and you'll be successful and have a great career. And it's fun when you when you win sales. Super fun. It's got to

Simon Peterson: 1:04:17

be fun. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Daniel Bartels: 1:04:22

Simon, thanks for joining us, Dan. Thanks for joining us, our guest today. It's been a great chat. For everyone listening out there. Wherever you are listening, please, please subscribe or like, share this with your friends. And this has been interesting share with your colleagues. If you have some recommendations of topics or people we'd like you'd like us to talk to or if you'd like to talk to us. Please reach out. We're obviously on LinkedIn, YouTube, there's a Facebook page. Jump on. Give us some comments, give us some feedback. We appreciate it. I'll talk to you all you guys next time. Thanks so much. Thanks.