In this episode of GrowthPulse - The B2B Sales Podcast, Dan & Simon discuss one of the most underrated skills of exceptional sales people, mastering change.
Sales people are experts at identifying and sharing with customers and prospects the opportunities and need for change in their businesses, but personally are often slow to recognise the need for change in themselves.
The truth is that the game of Sales is constant change. We are constantly resetting the clock on our achievements or quotas, territories change, products change, customer change. So how do we manage this constant change? How to we become Change Masters?
Dan & Simon talk through their top methods for getting on top of this constant cycle. They discuss key areas like managing the change of a new role, managing a new opportunity with a customer, managing your entire pipeline.
In this episode of GrowthPulse - The B2B Sales Podcast, Dan & Simon discuss one of the most underrated skills of exceptional sales people, mastering change.
Sales people are experts at identifying and sharing with customers and prospects the opportunities and need for change in their businesses, but personally are often slow to recognise the need for change in themselves.
The truth is that the game of Sales is constant change. We are constantly resetting the clock on our achievements or quotas, territories change, products change, customer change. So how do we manage this constant change? How to we become Change Masters?
Dan & Simon talk through their top methods for getting on top of this constant cycle. They discuss key areas like managing the change of a new role, managing a new opportunity with a customer, managing your entire pipeline.
You don't have to stick to 3060 90. But it's those sort of three phases. Shut up and listen, make some observations and then make some changes.
Daniel Bartels:But the reality is for any, any good salespersons, the CEO of their territory, the CEO of their deal, and, and they have to bring everybody else around them and allow those people who are great at what they do own those particular pieces of delivery. One of these changes needs a plan. If, if whatever on the same page, they better damn well be a page. Yeah. And that's for yourself as much as it is for everybody else. Welcome to growth pulse, the b2b sales podcast, where we take a deep dive in the world of business to business sales, and how you can get the most out of your investments and salespeople sell systems and processes, the lifeblood of any thriving organisation. Join us as we explore a range of topics as well as speak to the industry thought leaders, vendors success stories, and people have both failed and succeeded along the way on their journey to business and sales. Before we get started, please do us a huge favour and subscribe follow our live wherever you're watching listening to us. Also, please drop us a comment that you've subscribed. And please feel free to ask us any questions about the show. We'd love to get to know our audience. Miss episode, can you and Simon are talking about change as salespeople were masters at helping our customers identify the need for change in their business? But often, we answer great looking internally and really mastering change for ourselves. Change is a constant, not a variable in the world of sales. We discussed some tools and practices to help you really strengthen your game when it comes to managing change. So let's jump in. Welcome everyone to growth pulse, the b2b Podcast. I'm Dan Bartels, one of your hosts and I'm here joined, as usual with Simon Peterson.
Simon Peterson:Hey, Dan, how you doing?
Daniel Bartels:How are you Nice. How's the week been?
Simon Peterson:Well, it's been an interesting one, I started a new job on Monday. And, boy, it's, it's, it's an interesting thing, you know, you work for a company for you know, five, six years, you get used to the way things operate, you suddenly move into a completely new ecosystem, new boss, new team. I gotta say, the onboarding experience has been fantastic. But it's it's been drinking from a firehose, I've spent my entire life selling business software, and I'm now very much focused on data data protection, security, cybersecurity, so it's a it's a really different game to be in. It's exciting, but it's, yeah, it's gonna take me a little while to get used to it all. And but I gotta say, the people have been pretty wonderful, welcoming me welcoming in me in and it's, boy got to learn change. Right. That's the thing with sales?
Daniel Bartels:Look, I think that's, you know, it's a good topic for us to talk on today, which is, which is changed? And I think it's interesting changes the constant, not the variable. When you work in sales. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we've, we've sparked this new podcast that's changing now sort of working lives and careers. And we're, you know, we're trying to build this. Whether you've taken on a new role, you've taken a promotion and you territory, it's just a new financial year or new quarter, sometimes just the new month, like, how often are you back to zero starting again? And it's not it's not them? Not me every every set cycle? And that is a salespersons? Change, right?
Simon Peterson:Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, we're as salespeople used to the quarter end or the month end, and every month or every quarter, there's a new metric, a new, shiny, flashy thing that you need to go sell, you need to be across it, there's, there's usually a lot of elearning, you need to do. So. I guess, being comfortable with change, and being comfortable with, you know, trying to be an incident expert, and a lot of new things is is difficult, right takes a while to get used to.
Daniel Bartels:I think that's one of the one of the things around around being in sales is that you're expected to be an expert in so many areas, yet. I mean, just by definition, you can't be an expert in everything. But you need to be significantly more than competent in most.
Simon Peterson:Yeah, I think so. And I think, yeah, I mean, the trick trick down is, it's impossible to be an expert. And I think the smarter salespeople learn, who's around them has been in the business for a while. They get to know their solution engineers, and I think you can't do it by yourself. And I think the best salespeople in 23 know that there are going to be new things coming down the pipeline. And you just need to figure out who in the business or her new partner network can help.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's one of the things that I've definitely seen and experienced in my career is the people who succeed the fastest not always the best, but definitely the fastest. Lean on those around them really quickly for advice for knowledge for, you know, previous experience of, of, you know how to not make the same mistake again? I mean, how are you approaching, stepping into this new role from, you know, leaning on others or learning from those around you?
Simon Peterson:Yeah. So, you know, starting a new role, I think the first challenge that I had is, first of all, to learn who's who, in the zoo, there are so many people with different expertise, and a lot of these people that I'm meeting have been in the business for, you know, five, 710 years, and, you know, they're, they're awesome people to, to get to know. And I think my first step was just understanding that personality, how they like to work, and I think, being genuinely curious about what they've learned, and they think, you know, I've sat down with people not really knowing where the meetings gonna go, where the agenda is going to head, but boy, I'm learning and I think the more people you can talk to in your first week, the better. The other trick I've learned is, keep good notes. And I think, you know, you suddenly it's like walking into a, you know, a new organisation, I didn't know anybody, I've got all these names floating around in my head, trying to remember, you know, who's an expert, and what, and it's been, it's been really interesting, it's, it's a grounding experience probably only happens in your career, you know, every three or four years, but you've got to get, you got to get really good at it. And you've got to do it quickly. And I think, for me, a big advantage was, you know, the new sales organisation have jumped into uses a lot of the same systems I'm used to so my CRM system is Salesforce. So first thing I did was downloaded my team's pipeline, and then started asking questions, and immediately your sales team goes, Oh, this guy, really, you know, he's gonna get across the business real quick. So you're building, building credibility, but also being incredibly curious, and certainly not jumping to judgement. You know, people have asked me what I want to change. And I said, Look, my 30 days, my shut up and listen, phase. Last thing I want to do is come in, rock the boat before I really understand what's working, what's not working. I mean, you you started a
Daniel Bartels:new role, you're going through that 3060 90 process? Is that what you're kind of kind of planning and going through?
Simon Peterson:Yeah, mentally I am. Nobody's asked me to, like the good old days where you had to put it put your PowerPoint together with a 3060 90 on it. But you know, we've been doing this for a while down. So for me, 3060 90 is probably three different threats seems right for me. 30 is seek to understand, be curious, don't be too judgmental. It's a business. It's been up and running for years, they're doing a good job, they're ahead of targets, etc. So really shut up and listen for the first 30. And I think, you know, between 30 and 60, you're starting to inspect what's working? Well, what people have told you that's working. Well, that may not be, then you start to have a point of view. And I think in that, that second phase, it's right. For me personally, it's not about screaming and yelling, and telling people to do things differently. It's, have you thought about doing it this way? Have you thought about doing it that way? And that's where you, you kind of build on the experience over the years that you've done things slightly different in other places, and you challenge the norms, but you do it respectfully. And then I think after that 60 days, you've got a good sense of what's working, you've met the partner community, you know, the A's, you know, how pipeline's created you build a relationship with marketing. And I guess, fundamentally, you've met the solution engineers. And so you know, what really is working. I think, after that sort of 60 days, between 60 and 90, you're heading to the end of your first quarter, you need to start making some changes, and not necessarily just stamping your authority, but really starting to add some value. Because I mean, they've hired you for a reason. They want you to come into the business and have a new pair of eyes. And that's, that's what I like. And I think, also, you don't have to stick to 3060 90. But it's those sort of three phases. Shut up and listen, make some observations and then make some changes
Daniel Bartels:for anybody in a sales role. Whether you're leading an account for the first time, you've you're talking to a new prospect, you've taken on a new role or you've moved, you've moved teams, you've moved geographies, whatever it may be, you know, each one of these changes needs a plan. Does, you know I've harped on to to my teams you know, this idea of one on one one time I'm going to write a book on this and all the way that it applies, which is you know, if, if whenever I'm on the same page, the better damn well be at page Ah, yeah. And that's for yourself as much as it is for everybody else. Oh, absolutely, because it's so easy for people to to start with my 3060 90. But my recollection of what that looks like, you know, 15 days in this change, and I've modified it to what I'm doing versus what I planned and intended to do. And I think part of that is communicating to the other stakeholders around you. So in the context of a customer, it's communicating, saying, The reason I'm here, or you've asked me to come in here is to to answer these questions for you. We're going to go through this process, you know, we'll deliver on what we promised to do in the in these these phases, even if it's just in the sale process of I gotta buy or not buy or engage with you or not engage. Yep. But then internally, it's, it's how am I communicating to those below and above me, or beside me exactly what it is I'm trying to achieve and what I'm doing so they're clear on what you're trying to do? Yep, I think it's so easy for people to not communicate clearly or assume that everybody else knows what they're doing. You know, assumption, assumption makes an asset of you and me as the adage. And I think we all, we all assume way too much. We assume that everyone understands what's going on where we're going, and how we're going to go about doing it. And when people document it, and that's really the core of what a CRM is. It's the documentation and the clarity around what it is, we should do that? Yeah, where are you taking this? day, week, month, quarter, year, whatever it may be. But But then how am I and how am I going to plan to succeed, but also plan to recognise when to exit as well? You back in your context of taking on a new role or build a 3060 90? Like, where's your checkpoints? Where's the points where what you'd plan to achieve isn't working, and hey, I need some help here. I know that I need to do these five things will be enabled better on product or your systems and have never used your CRM or marketing tool before, I'm going to need more training than less? Yep. I think all those things come into building the plan.
Simon Peterson:And I think, Dan, I mean, you're an expert at this. But that getting everybody on the same page, building the page, it's not about building the page and moving on, I think, looking at what was on the page on day one, versus day 20, or 30, is going to be radically different.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, and I've had this argument with with different people over enormous number of roles and projects, there's no template to the page, the page is actually a process, not not a thing that you fill out. Because and just take take the context of a sale, if I'm selling, selling cars, or I'm selling houses, or I'm selling software, yes, the product is the same. But the way that the customer is going to use it. Therefore the way that you deliver it is going to be different. The benefits for each of those stakeholders is different. Because the price changes, or the delivery changes, or the use case changes. So therefore the way that you need to talk about it, and think about the context of it will be different, even sometimes where you have to communicate it will be different. Yep, if you deal with and I've dealt with CEOs who are practically illiterate before, this is not a criticism, they just aren't people that are high readers and have built great businesses by by not reading and delegating that to others. So you need to sell physically to them, you need to be in a room and show them producing 10. You know, volumes of PowerPoint presentations or documentation to read isn't relevant for them. Or if you're selling to I've sold to legal firms before, so lawyers like to read. They don't like you to bamboozle them, they want to read the documentation. So here are two people who you're trying to sell the same outcome to the same product, who need to go about it completely different. So the plan changes. Yep. Now your audience think that's a really key, please. Yeah, know your audience, like delve into the detail and understand what your audience requires. It's also understanding that the team you're working within and everybody has a team, even if you're a solopreneur, trying to kind of grow your business, you've got an accountant or you've got some people that are suppliers to you, or some support structures that you're so you're that team changes over time. Yep. But how do they work? Because again, if you're bringing in people who aren't very technical or aren't computer literate, but they're great at their job. Yep. And you want to drive everything via an online spreadsheet, well, that just practically isn't going to work. So How do you make those changes?
Simon Peterson:One of the big changes I'm trying to grapple with is, most of my career has been indirect sales. So my, my sales team, you know, inspect the deals, ask them their next steps. Have you empathise with your customer? Do you know the problem you're trying to solve, etc, etc, all the normal good stuff that you do in direct sales, and I've moved into a new role where it's 100% channel. So it's a very different way of inspecting a deal. And, but what I've learned in the first few days is I still need to inspect the deals, I need to hold my salespeople to account. I want my salespeople to meet the end customer. But there are a lot more stakeholders involved. So that's a big change, it's going to be interesting to understand how that works. And I'm, you know, I think, as you move through your career, it's fantastic to to throw yourself in the deep end, have different different models, different ways of doing things, because I think as you as you get older, it's it's great to draw on some of my direct sales experience as I start potentially making changes to how you might do a pure play channel, kind of sales, inspection, and leading a team. So it's, it's a fascinating thing to change. But I think back to your point about the 3060 90, or a plan on a page, how many times in your career probably happened to me early on in my sales career more, but I get my new boss, he'd asked me to build the plan, I'd build the plan. And we'd never go back and look at it again. The day I sent it to him was probably the last day either of us ever looked at it.
Daniel Bartels:People need to think about how do they operationalize and use a plan. A plan is not just the general can't build a plan, send the soldiers out, and then they never refer back to it because it's going to leave, it's going to live while the battle goes on. And in order to coordinate all the troops, he has to continually ensure that or he or she has to continually ensure that everybody is updated on what the variations aren't how we're going about it. Yeah, and I think this is where in, again, a sales context, we try to use things like playbooks or, you know, territory plans, or, you know, go to market strategies to try and communicate these different bits and pieces to a sales team. But I think the challenge that everybody runs into is when to when to be instructional versus bid to be collaborative, and even worse, when some people aren't instructional, dictatorial, I'm telling you that rather than instructing you, or telling, guiding you, but the reality is for any, any good salespersons, the CEO of their territory, the CEO of their deal, and they have to bring everybody else around them and allow those people who are great at what they do own those particular pieces of delivery, but then you need to be able to amend and, you know, direct around the edges and point, ensure everybody is pointed in the same direction. Yeah, it isn't the sometimes you need to modify and not one person has got a much bigger expectation of what we should achieve versus another and find a middle ground so that everybody can achieve the same thing at the same time. Yeah, I think that's that's a real challenge for for enterprise salespeople in particular, you know, business leaders, you know, how do you give everybody a combined vision and keep it updated? Yep. Because it's not just the document that pops out wants to your point, it's not, you know, you build that plan. And anyone who's worked in sort of around the Salesforce ecosystem has heard of the concept of the v2 mom, right? Yep. Vision values. For here. Remember, no vision values? metrics or methods? objectives. Objectives A case in point? This is the point, right? Yeah. It has been a while since it used to be too long. But it was a document you built once, and it never got referred back to. And I think in a sales team, like the most living plan, in my experience, is the forecast. You look at it most often, it's there every single week. You remind them what the annual number is your mind what the what the what the next level down, whether it be Quarter, Month, week, day, whatever you're measuring. That's the living plan. Like what are your thoughts on that song?
Simon Peterson:I look, it's an interesting one. I take you back to the V two Monday's you know, I remember sitting in a room in I think it was in Las Vegas and Marc Benioff presented to the leadership team at Salesforce, his particular fee to mom and he had a way of doing it, and it walked us through it and made a lot of sense. Send It was kind of nice as quite a few layers below Benioff I was. But just to see where he was thinking where he's focused on and then the CEO of of Salesforce at the time, that was, I guess one, one step below, Mark would then present his take on that for the sales business. And then each of us had to go on iterate on that. And then the role was I get back to Australia, and then I'd take my team through it, my leaders through it, that leaders would take their ace through, I think that's that that was a good exercise. I liked it, because it ensured that from top to bottom, we're all kind of pointing in the same direction. But what else I liked about it was my plan was not benioff's plan. And he didn't expect it to be my plan was taking the piece of the business that I owned, putting my own personal touch my style, my approach to achieve objectives that he wanted for the whole business. And I think that was a great process. But as you pointed out, it was a the, I guess, the, what actually happened was, it was a point in time plan. And, you know, we were every quarter told to go back and have a look at it. But in the cut and thrust of the year and hitting your numbers and updating your forecasts in your next steps. It kind of got put in the background a little bit. But I think at various points in the year, I would just go back and have a look at it. But it's real power was at the beginning, when you set it up that you kind of knew that you're in alignment with the senior leadership of whichever business you're in. But it was interesting, I think on our last podcast with Andrew Everingham he he worked at Salesforce years and years ago, started his own business. And one of the things he said is, you know, he instituted that in his business because he found it profoundly useful. Now, I wonder whether it's, you know, Andrew leading his business of 3040 people, as distinct from Salesforce 60,000 plus employees, it's, it probably has a much closer alignment for Andrew than it may do for a company the size of Salesforce in terms of ongoing, so you're a lot closer to the action and a smaller business.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, again, I think it just goes back to that core concept of if you want to, if you want everyone on the same page, there better be a page. But the page, if the page is sitting in a drawer, maybe there's there's an extension to visit, if the page is sitting in a drawer on the long term, there may not be a page absolute, you know, it's like, how do you live by it? Because the, you know, the plans change. You know, there's a there's a, there's a famous quote, I'm pretty sure it's Muhammad Ali that said, you know, everyone's got a plan to get punched in the face. It was it was either him or Tyson. Yeah. And I think because Mike Tyson actually did that. I mean, it's, maybe it was Mike Tyson. Right. And I'm actually reminded by the, the, the posters on the on the wall behind me, I can see that seeing the camera. You know, I've seen a lot of international sport and you everyone's got a strategy for the game against all the tournament in until they had their first injury or a play against red carded, and okay, hold on. Now, all of a sudden, we have to change what our tactics are. You know, we need to adjust live, and you're now playing out a position and there is a there is a new plan. Yep. You know, I think all of those things go into it. But you have to coordinate all those people around you. Sometimes you have to do it mid cycle mid meeting. And I think this is where really good planning, whether it be for a new role you've got on or whether it be for an account is in the context of a sporting event. It's like being in a meeting. You can't turn to your boss or your colleagues halfway through a meeting when the customer throws you a curly and says I thought we were all here to go and do a demo. And you said we're doing a discovery. Yep. Exactly. It's my meeting on the customer. Open the tool up, let's go. Yeah. How do you? And I think part of that then goes back to Well, realistically, the issue you've gotten the lesson to learn there is either did we have a plan for how to deal with that? Did we have a plan as a team before we walked in? What if the customer says this? You know, if I'm in my 3060 90 for the first for a brand new role? Yes, I want to sit there and I've had this in a previous role where I want to sit there for the first 30 days and learn and I walked in and when I can't forecast properly with the information I've got, yep, I'm gonna have to institute new rules like today. Yes, because this doesn't work. Yep. And I think all of those things, you know, you have to be ready to deal with but it's got to be on your plan.
Simon Peterson:Yep, it does. And look for me it was is download the pipeline to actually understand what the deals are about, can I forecast this? And that actually helps inform what I put in my 30 day plan? Yeah. Because I know my, my job is going to be judged on delivering a number. And it's going to be about bringing a team together to deliver that number. And if I see a whole bunch of pipeline there that I just don't trust or don't believe in or don't understand. It's my job to get across that and understand it. Yeah, and as you say, the plan changes. I mean, I know that there's a few cricket teams playing each other over in England right now. And they're in a five day meeting. And there's been a few curveballs, right. And, you know, the winner of those engagements has been the one that's been able to adapt and change. I think our English friends might want to complain about the plans changing throughout the throughout the game, but yeah, look at the scoreboard.
Daniel Bartels:And that's the reality. I mean, it's, it's always it never surprises me, I should say, is how much there's a similarity between sports sales. Yep. You plan that this demo was going to go this this phase of any particular way? And it didn't. And it didn't, it's the same as you thought that your particular batsman was going to be out there for another three hours. And he walked off the crease. And from an underhand throw got bulk taken out. You think it's unfair, except he's back in the sheds? So you can think it's unfair, or you like the plan to the papers as much as you like, yep, guess what? He's still out. And he's in the sheds. That meeting that you had where you thought it was a discovery became a demo, and you demoed the wrong stuff. Okay. What's the plan from here? Yep. How do you recover that?
Simon Peterson:Yep. And I think the other similarity to selling is, have you ever seen a silver medal awarded at the end of a deal cycle?
Daniel Bartels:There is no second place. percent, there is no second place in sales. Definitely. He loves you because your your great people really love the team. But we bought that somebody else.
Simon Peterson:Don't you love that conversation down? Isn't that wonderful? You know, when you're really excited about your relationship with the key stakeholder, you've gone for dinners, you've done a great job. And he or she gives you a call and says, Look, I really like you, Dan, you're an awesome person. You're by far the most likeable, but we're not going with you.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, but I mean, that's, and you and I've been in that story a number of times a couple, I think this goes back to a thing as a salesperson where you actually have to understand another aspect of going back to it, you know, whatever on the same page, the better be a page. Yep. The other piece out of that is when the customer tells you that. Is there a page yet? Yeah. Does the other vendor and other other party? Have they got a signed contract? Yeah, it was, it was a really awesome contract. Guess what? There's no, like there's no common plan here yet. That's what a contract is.
Simon Peterson:Yeah. Some of my best you can young my best wins have been after I've been told I've been lost.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah. By far, absolutely. Some some, some of my best have have included a plan where we wanted to get excluded. You know, we actually wanted that we wanted the customer did tell us that we weren't fit for exactly what it was that they were trying to buy. Because our opinion was they were trying to buy the wrong thing. Yep. And we needed to help blow the whole thing up in order to come back and build and get everybody on a new page.
Simon Peterson:Yeah, I remember. I know you're blowing up RFP processes. I think it's one of your favourite pastimes.
Daniel Bartels:I think it's I think it's the only way to win them. Yep. I think anyone who tries to just follow the bouncing ball and an RFP is just on the on the fast way to be to be commoditized. And longer term, it's zero as a zero sum game.
Simon Peterson:Or I remember us blowing up a forecast call once.
Daniel Bartels:We call exactly right.
Simon Peterson:So I thought first of all forecast call of the quarter. So I'm gonna watch a number for the region 00. That's certainly got their attention. I might do it differently. No,
Daniel Bartels:but hey, using using adding content, using that particular example in context, and look, we should we should get our good friend, Mr. Ken on the podcast at some point to talk about it. But you know, look, it was about us saying to the business, and before we didn't we had a plan. Yet we had a plan on a page as to what we're absolutely going to do. And we were we were solid on the reasons why we were doing it. We'd thought through what they were going So we thought through answers to what they were going to say. We thought through the questions that came out of those out of those answers. Yep. And I can look
Simon Peterson:on my as a result of that. We're gonna, yeah, I looked on my PC where I kept my CV as well, just to make sure I still had it, just in case it went pear shaped.
Daniel Bartels:But how do we were prepared for the outcome when you're
Simon Peterson:Yeah, well, I think the big lesson. Yeah, the big lesson in that, for me was really, look, you know, your business. And if you know your business really, really well, and you've got a plan, and you've thought it through your workshop, that if you do something that's a little controversial, back yourself, because, you know, if you've got the best interest of the business at heart and your customers are, it's a really good logical conversation to have in a debate. And, you know, we're forecasting to somebody that was 12,000 miles away.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, yeah. And I think also, as salespeople, what always risk takers, so you don't have a job in sales if you're not a risk taker, right. Because you live half your life with, you know, most of your most of your salary at risk, if not all your salary. So, you know, and you're always on the edge of, is a great as it not, and as and the better you get, the higher the expectations come from, you know, your colleagues, the industry, your customers, you know, as much as you're as good as your last deal. That's now the standard, then the next deal is meant to be better again. Yeah, and that just becomes what everybody everybody wants from you as part of the course.
Simon Peterson:Yep. So by the way, next 40. New products.
Daniel Bartels:I've never seen a quarter go down.
Simon Peterson:Yep. I've never, I've never really seen a character increase, right.
Daniel Bartels:Never seen a two or three increase, never seen the quarter go down. You know, and, and that's, and that's because that's kind of how this game works. Because growth growth is a is a is a number that goes up. You know, so So I think that back to these core pieces of right, you know, you've got a new role. You've got a new territory, you've got a new year, hey, yet,
Simon Peterson:what's the plan, and a percent. And I think the other year, the big one I've seen go backwards and forwards over my time is the migration from industry aligned salespeople to geographic, and every two or three years, it swaps and changes and it's as a salesperson, you're not potentially in control of the conversation. But suddenly, you've gone from being industry align, let's say your focus is financial institutions. And the next year, it's okay, well, we've split this into geographies, you're now in New South Wales, or you're now Victoria or whatever. You just got to, you've got to rebuild your territory, you've got to rebuild your plan.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, it just comes back to sales is about constant change, you're either you're the driving change, because someone's gonna buy a product from you to solve it solver. A problem they either know they had or didn't know they had, that you've created for the help create formal graddic Create acknowledgement from them. You know, you've sold it for them. But in that is changed, but you're also constantly changing in terms of what it is that you're delivering and doing your products change, your leader changes, your territory changes, customers are constantly changing. And you know, it's becoming that I suppose the only thing that doesn't change in that is you as a constant, but even your experience and your knowledge changes the way the you know, the the tools, you're going to use change. So
Simon Peterson:I've certainly changed over the years. That's the one constant. Yeah. I mean, yeah, let's, let's hear but apart from that, I've changed the way of doing things. But it's
Daniel Bartels:gotten us here. A little bit a little bit wider.
Simon Peterson:Yep. Yep. A wiser. Yep. But it's interesting. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting for me, I mean, I've had two journeys with two big software juggernauts. And I think, you know, the first one SAP it was, when I first started, we sold ERP. And, you know, you had a couple of skews. But as, as the business was under pressure to grow it acquired other businesses, it added new skews. And I, I think as I as I left SAP there, were, you know, there's probably over 1000 skews that I had, when I first started, there are probably four or five and I think, you know, same thing happened at Salesforce. I think, you know, the pressures on those big corporates to grow, they can't do it 100% organically, so they acquire businesses and as a salesperson, you might enter a new year and then another 10 skews you need to learn
Daniel Bartels:yep, yep. Yep, for sure. You know, I think that's but again, that's that's part of how do you how do you drive growth? I mean, going back to how do you build a plan and how you're going to work around that, I mean, the, the the keys that, that I've seen companies look at, I'm either finding customers and selling to net new customers, I haven't spoke to Botha before, I'm going to sell more stuff to the same customers that I've got, I'm going to expand the, like the current offerings. So you know, if I've sold you, one can have COVID. And so your two cans of Coke, or I'm going to sell you coke and Fanta, or I'm gonna expand the value of what you're getting. So I used to sell your coke. But now I'm going to sell beverages, rather than a 1010 $1. Coke, I'm going to sell you a $10 bottle of wine. So I think they're really the options that that you've got around, or I'm going to tell you how much of consulting around the beverages you've already got to make your enjoyment of the beverages even better. And they're really how organisations grow what it is that they're doing. Yep. Are they going to different geographies? Which is just I'm just going to sell more cans of Coke.
Simon Peterson:And that my friend is by sales and product or services? That's what you do? Yeah, I mean, that that. That is why sales is the best career. We certainly don't work in a sausage factory. Yeah.
Daniel Bartels:No, and it changes every year, I mean, the what you're gonna do and achieve changes year by year. And other strategy for what the focus is. I mean, you can see it in any good sales team, you better see it inside the plan, which is your your comp plan, that we're going to pay you to achieve these outcomes where we're targeting these types of growth. I mean, those things, I think, become really important for you to really understand, you know, what it is that you're trying to do?
Simon Peterson:Yep. And I think, you know, obviously, with the economy and the jitters around inflation and interest rates going up, companies are thinking more before they buy software, they don't, they're not making decisions as quickly. So you need to be more patient. And as a salesperson, you've got to be really in tune with the changes that are happening in your prospect or customer as well. I think you know, the people you talk to, you know, two, three years ago that you would go through a discovery and a demo, and you talk about the value and guest in the box were better than the other guys. You're buying software, traditionally, great sales cycle that is, but you know, these days, it's Yeah, look, we really loved the process, you really understand our business, you know, the problems of ours, you're going to solve them. But I'm sorry, I can't make that decision just yet. Or, you know, I was going to roll it out to all of the divisions, but I'm going to do a proof of concept. And I know that your favourite way of selling software down proof of concept, not
Daniel Bartels:I hated proof of concepts. But I think like this is again, like this goes back to what what's the plan for for that conversation. And we really should do a whole session on on that discovery and that discovery process. But I think, you know, whenever you get to a, whenever you get to a desire for a proof of concept, something's going to strain your plan and your conversation with the customer. Because it's a, it's either a really intentional part of what you're trying to achieve, because potentially you have to build a product. If you're genuinely building the product with them, then hey, proof of concept content, that kind of makes sense. But if you've got a defined product, and you've got a step to a proof of concept before the sale, something's gone astray here, which is either you don't understand why the customer is buying it, the customers understand why they're buying it. Or they don't really understand the benefits of why the buyer but they think this could be a good idea. Which means earlier in the process, like there's a there's something of this documentation or delineation of what it is. They're what problem they're really solving. It hasn't been qualified hasn't been DACA hasn't been made apparent and qualified or qualified. Not everyone uses this term qualified, right? And I think I've always thought it's the wrong term. Because qualify back on my documentation says, Are they ready to buy? Or do they have the money to buy or do they fit the type of customer that that would benefit from our product or service? Yep. But that's actually not the problem when you're a customer. You could be the perfect fit, but if I haven't understood why it is I'm actually buying inside my company. That's what I've got to go and sell.
Simon Peterson:And that's a formal qualification from the challenges for qualification from the other side, right that the customer needs to qualify internally what why they're looking for something.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, yeah. 100% 100% Yeah, I think it's a it's a real challenge for, for people to understand internally, why it is I'm actually doing this and why I should buy this solution. They can see it's a good idea, but they can't document it for themselves so that they can sell it internally.
Simon Peterson:Well, they've got to be able to put up with your change. Yeah, they've got to be ready for the challenge. Have they documented those pieces? It's, that's interesting. I mean, we've both seen companies that have spent a fortune rolling out CRM and a lot of that change impacts, let's say, the sales teams, the sales leaders in the business and the, the CFO signs off a check to buy that and forces the change into the business. And then we've also sold software to CFOs. And when that's the CFO that needs to change, it's completely radically different conversation on most CFOs are happy to sign off for change that will grow revenue, and a lot of the impact of the change happens outside the the finance organisation, but you know, selling software to the CFO that will impact their organisation. It's completely different conversation and stuff and a lot slower. Yeah.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, it's always slower selling to kind of the back office, people in the front office people. That's just a matter of the way that decision making is made in different parts of the business. But it goes back to understanding understanding change, right? Yep. Do you understand how they think about change? Do you understand the types of changes that they like to implement their capacity for change? I mean, that's kind of a another key lesson back within, stepping into a new role, right? You can have the best plan, you can be the best coach possible. But if your team aren't ready to take on the lessons, too irrelevant, whether you're ready to sell whether we're ready, you're ready to talk to them about it or not.
Simon Peterson:Yep, exactly. So.
Daniel Bartels:Yeah, for sure. So my back to back to your new role? Well, you know, I don't want to forecast and tell everybody what you're about to go and do. But, you know, what, what are the what are the pieces that you're mindful of as you kind of step into the new role? And, you know, yes, you've got your 3060 90, you know, components there. But, you know, you've had a number of new roles over your career, the, um, within companies and changing like, what are the things you really watch out for? And you're careful on?
Simon Peterson:I guess with this one, I think, number one, don't, don't come in and be arrogant, and piss people off. And I've done that, yeah. Not knowingly, before. So I'm very cognizant of where I am. And, you know, I'm not in charge of the region in this particular role. And so I've also got to be a little bit cognizant about the way I hold myself. So I've got a boss locally, I've not worked for a boss that sits inside Australia for 15 years. So that's different, right? So I can't walk in and make unanimous changes to things because I'm the boss, I've got to go in and build a groundswell and be a little bit more humble. And that's actually a really good thing for me. Other things that I've got to do is, I've got to respect the background of a lot of different people that I've just never worked with before. Get a good understanding of what makes them tick. But also project a personality, that's my own. So I'm not being subservient. I know what I'm doing. I'm good at what I'm doing, I'm confident, but just don't overreach in terms of telling people what to do from day one. I think getting a sense of the other but I guess the other big change for me, in this particular role is my team is quite geographically spread out. So I've got people in Perth in Adelaide, New South Wales, in Victoria and New Zealand, Brisbane, etc. And I guess a couple of the last jobs I've had the vast majority of them probably sit in the office with me so it's quite a different approach to getting to know them. I think we're gonna have to do a bit bit more travel and build a one to one relationships. And I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier, that this company does 100% Channel Sales. So the, the, the nature of the type of salesperson I need to hire, you know, the, the number one b2b sales guy that does direct deals is may not be the right person in this because they might be too controlling or they might not be willing to share as much information with their partners. And I think, you know, for me, for me, I think my days that SAP really taught me about working with partners, so that's going to come in handy but you know, Salesforce was 100% Direct. So it's just a different way of doing things. And I'm, I'm really actually quite excited about learning something completely different, but applying a lot of the skills and best practices I've learned through direct sales. And it's just different. So we'll see, we'll see how it goes. I look, I'm excited about it, you know, the nice people. And, you know, I'm working in North Sydney. So for me personally, that's, I don't have to cross the Harbour Bridge. Yeah, I can put my passport away. No, it's just it's a nice change of scenery. You know, I've worked in North Sydney for years and in the city for years, overseas as well. But I think, yeah, it's nice. But as I say, day five, I'm exhausted.
Daniel Bartels:I'm sure you are, I'm sure you are, well, maybe we might sort of wrap things up there. You know, it's been an interval of a long week for both of us. But I'm not I think that's a, you know, a good summary of, you know, what you've got to head for yourself. But, you know, some good advice there for everybody in terms of, like, how do you go about handling change? And I think, one of the skill sets that, you know, I think we really summarised here was, as salespeople were, were masters of change. And what we're typically masters of is helping others out there change. And we, it's, again, one of the, one of those old sayings of, you know, the cobblers kids have the worst shoes yet but understanding for ourselves that we've got to sometimes saw that change to ourselves internally, and do the same things that you would do with, with a customer for yourself, and make your business the the recipient of that change, that you're so good at delivering to others around you. You know, treat, treat your own operations, your own career, like you would, you know, one of your customers and the work and effort and the documentation you'd win for them is going to be what you do for yourself.
Simon Peterson:100% and it's confronting, having, say, I'm quite used to giving change to other people, but having that change thrust upon me it's it's confronting, it's exciting. It's scary. It's, you know, it's new. Yeah. Which is great.
Daniel Bartels:It's awesome. To show excited. Yeah. Well, Simon, mate, thanks for the thanks for the conversation. As always, I hope our listeners enjoyed that. And look for for all the listeners look, you know, do us a favour, jump on to whichever platform you're listening or watching us on now. Click the subscribe button, click the thumb and give us a like, if you're listening to us, give us five stars. Drop us a comment and subscribe. We'd love to hear from you. And we do hope you join us next time for next episode of growth pulse podcast.
Simon Peterson:Excellent. Excellent. Thanks, everyone.