From Stress to Success: Building strong, resilient mental health in sales with Bronwyn Pendaglion | GrowthPulse The B2B Sales Podcast Ep13

In this special episode of GrowthPulse, the B2B Sales Podcast, hosts Daniel Bartels and special guest Bronwyn Pendaglion shed light on a crucial yet often overlooked facet of sales: mental well-being. As professionals deep dive into the intricate nuances of B2B sales, it's essential to recognize that genuine human connections, fueled by empathy and understanding, can drive successful sales conversations.

The Power of Physical Health in Mental Well-being:
One cannot underscore enough the intrinsic relationship between physical health and mental robustness. A surprising revelation indicates that regular exercise might offer a more substantial positive effect on mental health than even some prescribed drugs. Encouraging daily physical activities, even if it's just a brisk walk in the sun, can lead to profound improvements in one's mindset, which can directly influence sales outcomes.

The Science of Starting Right:
Bronwyn Pendaglion introduces listeners to a transformative morning routine - a simple outdoor walk. As the day breaks, spending just 20 minutes with an elevated heart rate can lead to enhanced neural function, setting a positive and energized tone for the day. This routine is not just about physical well-being but serves as a mental stimulant, vital for sales professionals aiming for daily wins.

The Role of Animal Companionship:
The unconditional love from a pet, especially dogs, can be an unsung therapeutic experience. Amidst the hustle of B2B sales, having a loyal companion can act as a grounding anchor, offering moments of joy, love, and a mental reset.

Genuine Human Connections in Sales:
The essence of "Are You Okay Day" transcends beyond a date on the calendar. It's a reminder that at the core of every sale, there's a human connection. By genuinely checking in, offering authentic concern, and listening without judgment, sales professionals can forge deeper relationships, making business interactions more fruitful.

This episode of GrowthPulse delves into the heart of what truly matters in B2B sales – genuine human connections and a balanced mental state. As sales professionals navigate through strategies, techniques, and best practices, it's essential to remember that nurturing one's mental health and cultivating real connections can be the game-changers in the world of sales.

To meet or speak with Bronwyn Pendaglion:
Website - www.penhaligons.com.au
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bronwyn-penhaligon-32977313/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/penhaligonapppsych/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/PenhaligonAP

Transcript

Daniel Bartels: 0:00

Um, there'll be referred to as that person's at Lone Wolf, because they've done some great deals in the rough running by themselves. And it may be that they're, they've been around longer, they kind of know more of the traps by themselves. They've got a greater level of tenure. But what you'll often find those lone wolves having this, this is kind of a trick for young players, those joining joining the sales models don't have that they'll have that colleague of have that person they spend time with on a regular basis.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 0:25

Yeah, just just set yourself a goal. I mean, everyone in sales is really like numbers driven, goal driven, said literally set yourself a goal. And then every week for the next three weeks, you'll catch up with three friends and text messages don't count voicemails don't count, you actually go and physically see them and hold space and ask the question, are you okay? And by holding space, that that means without judgement and means without, you know, pushing advice or having any agenda. It's just being there and being a good human. And make sure that one of those people you're checking in on the weaklings yourself.

Daniel Bartels: 1:03

Welcome to growth pulse the b2b sales podcast, we take a deep dive in the world of business to business sales, and how businesses can get the most out of their investment in salespeople, sales systems and processes are the lifeblood of any thriving organisation. Join us as we explore a range of topics as well as speak to some of the industry's thought leaders, vendors success stories. People have just won and failed on their journey in business and sales. Before we get started, please do us a huge favour and click subscribe follow alike wherever you're watching or listening to us. Also, please drop us a comment you subscribed. We'd love to get to know our audience.

Voiceover: 1:39

This Are you okay day, we're encouraging all Australians to create space for meaningful conversations. asking Are you okay? How you doing or what's going on in your world is the first step. But genuinely listening to the answer is key. That's why it's important. You're here to hear whatever comes next. Make sure you're giving your mate your colleagues your family member or loved one the right environment to open up. You know them and they know you, you know when they feel most at ease. So take some time to think about where and how you'll be completely here to here. Choose a time and a place where you can give your full attention free of distractions. Create a situation where the person you're asking feels comfortable discussing difficult thoughts, feelings or emotions and tied into something that makes sense to you both. No matter what that is, and where it takes you. From a walk in the park or sit down over coffee or a quiet night in you'll know when and where will be best. And remember, every day is the day to ask Are you okay? And let people in your world know you're here to really hear.

Daniel Bartels: 2:53

Welcome back everybody to another edition of growth pulse the b2b sales podcast. We have a special edition today going live on Are you okay, do we have pre recorded the session? I'm Dan Bartels, one of your hosts, Simon Peterson couldn't be here today. So he doesn't give his apologies. But this is an important topic that we wanted to discuss for, for all people mental health. Well, being anxiety in particular, we have a very special guest to join us today. Brahman Penhaligon. She's a strategic psychotherapist and specialising in anxiety. So prominent Welcome to the show.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 3:29

Thank you so much for having me delightful to be here.

Daniel Bartels: 3:31

So thankful, you know, you reached out to have a discussion about mental health and you know, workplace anxiety etc. Which be a salesperson, myself, I've been spent my entire career in sales, and my wife is a kindergarten teacher. And I think her role would generate enormous levels of anxiety for me, and she thinks the reverse for myself, but obviously, what we're focusing on our audience today, and most of our audience, our, you know, salespeople or entrepreneurs and business professionals, and existing in that space can generate a huge level of anxiety ups and downs of the business world and you know, revenue creation. Is that something you touch on regularly in your practice? And, you know, any, I suppose starting off? Yeah, how do we think about those areas?

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 4:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Look, it is. It's a major, major issue, I think, and particularly, we know, right, that the fact shows that anxiety is a precursor to depression, essentially. So that's why I guess I reached out to you because I know that with Ioh K de the the core focus there is really on looking at the people that are struggling and have gone down that slippery slope into sitting with their black dog. But I think that also as it relates to workplace and particularly in the world of sales, the anxiety piece is is huge, right? I mean, those those ups and downs that are happening constantly. The pressure that is just relentless, and the sheer fact that sure you can finish a really strong month but then you go sleeping, you wake up and you're on zero. And you've got to start again. Yeah, like, it's that's a lot. It's a pretty hectic merry go round to be so fun.

Daniel Bartels: 5:07

Yeah, I think it's a real challenge that a lot of people avoid getting into sales or having a revenue creation style role, because of exactly that roller coaster and, you know, feeling that pressure of how do I, their own perception of how do I get someone to the end of a transaction, I, you know, I feel like I've pushed them to make a decision. Great, we've celebrated that but wasn't in there, it wasn't in their best interest. And I think, you know, one of the piece of advices that I have, as a sales leader and a salesperson is, you fundamentally can't make the decision for anybody else. You know, so actually settling into that position of, we create solutions for customers that they can step into, you can't actually force anybody to do anything. And I think I've given this advice a few times on the podcast. And my wife doesn't listen all that much. She's a schoolteacher, but you know, I can't convince her to do anything she doesn't really want to do, I can't want to get a dog, we want to go on holidays, you know, we're gonna buy a new house, if she doesn't want to do it. She's she's an adult, she'll say, we don't want to do that. Whereas, and vice versa, her to me. And I think that's a key piece as salespeople that you people moving into sales have to get really comfortable with, we help facilitate that process, by all means we speed it along. And you know, we help customers make good decisions. But it isn't our decision at the end of the day and kind of giving yourself that breathing space. To understand you won't know you will lose more than you win is a really important lesson. Do you see that in your practice?

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 6:42

Absolutely, all the time. The number one reason why people come into clinic is because they've got what we call an external locus of control. So I know it sounds really fancy. But it basically just means that you know it, when you think about the concept of control, right, you've either got, you know, an internal space where you feel that you're in control of your life, you're essentially in the driver's seat, you're the one that makes the decisions, you're the one that responds to what happens, that's when you're in a really healthy space, that's when you're feeling really good. When people come into clinic, they're not in that space. So the complete opposite, so they're running an external locus of control. And what that means is, they're kind of like the kid in the backseat, like just flipping through their phone, like, they don't really know where they're going. They're not really all that involved, and they're certainly not in charge. So instead of being proactive and actually feeling like they're driving decisions, they're more reactive and stuffs happening to them. So you'll hear things like, hit you know, he made me mad, or the traffic's the reason why I'm like, as opposed to actually taking the responsibility and the control have been what's happening in their lives.

Daniel Bartels: 7:51

Yeah, and I think salespeople the way that often often shows up is, you know, going through it an individual deal cycle, how do you take control of the way a deal is occurring, and my advice in that scenario is understanding again, while I can't make the decision, I can absolutely control the environment in which we're all talking about a deal or about a transaction or solving a problem. And if I'm left to extend that concept of external locus of control, if I'm left as a passenger in that process, where I'm not in control of the next meeting, cycle, or time or the agenda, I don't have a good plan around what's about to go and happen then, then I'm, I'm a passenger in that experience, and I've gotten my business or colleagues asking me, you know, and they may be trying to help me on a deal asking me about what's going on, and I'm a passenger. So driving the conversations is external to me, and now that can only serve to increase my anxiety around, are we going to get there? am I wasting people's time, and we're gonna have pressure coming towards me? And I think that's a really good frame of reference to think about it. Are we in control? or is somebody else in control of what's going on in this particular example? Is that how I should think about it?

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 9:09

Well, yeah, you're definitely on the right track. They're down. I mean, like, the idea of control, right, and this is the real pivot point. Like when you think about the the seesaw, this is the fulcrum bit in the middle, like the pivot point is to recognise and appreciate that you're not actually in control of anything outside of yourself. Well, that's a bit scary. 100% emphatically not a thing. You can influence. Yes, yes, you can influence but influence is not control. You think about the sales process. You can hear what your clients saying, you can answer everything they've put in the brief, you can put in all the extra bits that you know, that they asked for plus a couple of sweeteners. You can do all the due diligence and you know, make it you know, tied up with a bow. But pretty much as soon as you hit send and it goes out, it's totally out of your hands. You don't know what's going to happen. It's totally ambiguous. So after that, and that's the part that people kind of get stuck on, right? Because they get really fixated on the outcome. And they get really stressed out and about, like, oh my gosh, what could happen? What could I have said better? Or what could I have done more of, etc, etc, etc. And then they go down the path of rumination. That's when they're staying awake all night, thinking about their day over and over and over, then that sleep cycle gets affected, and I wake up feel like shit, and they're not productive. And guess what? Same deal tomorrow? Yeah.

Daniel Bartels: 10:30

So one of the ways that I've always I look, I'd be the first to say, you know, you absolutely will go through ups and downs in being in sales. So in a sales run, I think in any role, you go through ups and downs, you know, this is not a unique problem to people who are in sales. But, you know, there's, I found, if I control what I can control, or if I, if I have control of what I'm going to influence, then in my anxiety is significantly less over time. And even if sometimes, you know, those, those engagements, sometimes it's not just doing a deal, some numbers solving a problem, or someone making a hard decision. If I've controlled genuinely all the things that it's possible to control, I'm okay with the outcome, I'm okay with the negative outcome occurring. And often negative outcome as a no or a customer treating or leaving or that you know, that difficult conversation with your internal leadership saying, you know, that thing we plan for didn't happen. But if you've done everything that you can possibly do, and you've planned for it, and you've known that, anxiety really dissipates. Is that unique to me? Or is that kind of part of the process? No, that's,

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 11:41

that's, again, absolutely it right. Because the reason we get anxious, and the reason we get that kind of fluttery feeling. And we're like, you know, our shit is because we're being driven to do something, we need to take action. And as soon as you start taking action, you start to feel better, and you start to do better. It's when you get stuck up in your head. That's when you do solve the mischief.

Daniel Bartels: 12:04

Yeah, right. And what about what about when we take action, but it's not productive action. So it's not necessary that I'm doing myself harm. But it's, it's I know that I've taken action, but the action has ended up increasing my anxiety. How do I sort of think about those, like those scenarios as well?

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 12:23

So there's a difference right between rumination and reflection? Right? Yeah. So we're such creative human beings, like the amount of stuff that we can fantasise and create in our minds is pretty amazing. And so you create all of your problems, right? Essentially, it's you just believing your own bullshit. That's why you get caught caught up. That That means you can also imagine your own solutions. So if you start imagining a solution, and you're going down a path with it, and you take action, and then you realise that, oh, actually, this is making it worse. It's just like, bro, just pull up, just pause, recalibrate, take a breath, try something else. I think, you know, sometimes people will make decisions, and they feel like, you know, it's been set in concrete and Rio, you know, like, really being able to pivot and to make some amends and to change is totally okay. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And moreover, when you're working with a client, and if you're going to certain path down, you know, working with them, and you're providing the solution, you can feel that it's going a bit wonky, to actually just call it out and be like, it doesn't seem like this is resonating, or how about we look at this in a different way, or you know, etc, etc, but just basically own what you can feel is going on, because most of the time, you know, there's going to be something in that. I mean, we get feelings and responses for a reason. Right?

Daniel Bartels: 13:48

Yeah. Right. I mean, I think that ownership piece can be difficult for many people, right? So actually only the scenario that they're in, I mean, I know, I've been been in that scenario before where, you know, things aren't going the way that you want them to go, and actually taking responsibility for where we are, but also then the actions moving forward. That can be scary. That can be daunting to people. I know, it's been daunting to me at different stages. But I think, you know, again, I'm intrigued. internat kind of the advice you give to your, your clients or my experience has been, the hardest step is always the first one. In some direct direction, in any movement in any direction, is actually often a massive part of the resolution of the anxiety that you're in. Just start the movement and how you can also correct along the way but you know, inertia in once you're anxious inertia can be can be the biggest hurdle is that you're what you see in your practice as well.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 14:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of the time Yeah, people do come in they're just feeling really stuck. Right. They've got so many options that they don't know which one to take. And so they have trouble being able to do a solid risk assessment and, you know, kind of feel comfortable in decision making. So like, Fuck, it's too hard or just won't do anything. Yeah, or it's the other way around where they're like, I feel so stuck. I don't know what to do. So, you know, maybe I just, like, just keep thinking about it. And that's, that's also not helpful either. Again, maybe you can record reflect, and have a review of your day and be like, okay, cool. I know that I screwed up that phone call earlier, I probably should have made with, you know, a softer tone. And then as long as you're taking action, that's cool. That's totally fine. If you're just going over and over and over with no action or no new information. Again, that's when you start hurting yourself.

Daniel Bartels: 15:48

Yeah, absolutely. So I know, part of a big part of our yo k day, which is obviously the purpose of this, this session is not just about ourselves individually. And while, you know, I genuinely put the message out there to you know, all of our listeners, and one of my colleagues and friends hear the message. Are you okay? You know, an important part of the day is actually about having the, the strength, the interpersonal strength and the openness. Get to ask your your colleagues and friends like, are you okay? Because too often, people don't actually open up that, that, that piece of communication with each other, to check in and make sure people when they're struggling for life, they can be supported. So what advice can you give to our listeners around? How do they have that conversation with others? Because it isn't an easy one? Yeah, how can I approach that conversation?

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 16:40

Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting, right, the theme of this year is let people know you're here to hear them. So there's kind of you know, two different spellings of the word here. And then just kind of cute, but really, they the guys that are you, okay, day have made some great resources, which I absolutely, you know, hold testament to, but it's really just creating space and holding space for people. A lot of the reason why we don't ask is because we're like, Well, shit, like, what am I going to say? If they say, No, I'm not okay. Like, how do I deal with that, like, what if I hear something really scary, I won't be able to fix that. And it's actually a really good thing to remind yourself, it's not your job to fix them, you don't need to do anything, all you need to do is just create an environment where you know, there's a feeling of trust, where you're free of distractions, and you approach it from a really authentic space. And literally just ask, do some active listening, encourage the person to take action, because again, we all get stuck in our heads, and we get a little bit in that comfort zone. And sometimes a comfort zone is just having a good pitch about it and not actually doing anything, that doesn't really help. But then once you've encouraged that action, then to also check in with the person as well so and be like, how are you going with this? Do you need support with that? And be a bit of a cheerleader? I suppose.

Daniel Bartels: 18:03

Yeah, I think it's, it's a, an evolution of the way we communicate today as well. You know, so much of our communication ends up back in social media, even with some of your best friends. And you know, the frequency of which we can contact people while it's seems to be we know their lives, because we're watching them on Facebook and Tiktok, and Instagram and whatever else, because we've got that kind of surface level connection, we don't reach out often enough and genuinely, sort of get below the surface. And hey, look, I know you put this great post out, but hey, are you okay with it? Like, is everything it definitely good? I mean, you know, she has some personal stories here, I had a guy I grew up with who unfortunately passed away not too many months ago, and, and my, my colleagues that my friends and I from school were together and we said, look, we want things we don't do is just get together enough as especially as men don't make that space to say, hey, we're going to go out and have a beer because we need to know that 10 As many of us can get together on a regular basis. So as a result we've made we've made a fictitious Sports Club, there's no sport being played. It's a way to actually I drive connection with each other. And once a quarter we organise the the quarterly meeting. And we've got one coming up shortly. But it was and we actually look I can't say we take ownership of it. And one of our one of our friends Brothers has one already. They've got a fishing club. Ours is a badman. And, and it's all about just getting people to come together to have those conversations. And I think too often, you know, you might shoot a text message and someone texts you back, but you don't actually have that genuine conversation just saying, you know, Hey, how are things going? And I know in the software world that I've come to that I mean, still today. It's been a tough couple of years.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 19:54

It is so massive, and again, regardless of which stage in career you're at, we're always doing this thing up I put a post up about this last week, I think, on LinkedIn, where we run comparisons, right. And one of the people I was working with that was running comparison really, really, really badly, some massively hurting himself. He was telling me that he's totally cool to get up in front of a room of 300 people and take a lectern. That's cool. doesn't worry him at all. But saying his close friends that have barbecue on the weekend, that's when he runs anxiety, because he's like, this guy is more advanced than I am, this guy is further along in his family, this guy's doing better financially, that guy just got back from an overseas trip. And he's like, and what am I doing? I, you know, I'm still here, and I'm still grinding. So it's like, if you're going to compare yourself, right? You need to compare yourself to the full gamut of the human experience in your vertical. So say, if you're new in sales, and you've been in there three months, and you're only just starting to find your feet and get a rhythm going, but you're comparing yourself to the dude, that's been doing it for 10 years. It's hardly fair, right? If you're going to compare yourself, you need to look at the whole thing, which includes that person that hasn't even started yet, because they're too scared. Right? So you're actually a bit more advanced than they are? Yeah, for sure. And then I need the other part of the comparison piece, which is important to land on is the only person whose life you really know what's going on. Is yours. Yeah. So if you're going to compare yourself, the only person that it's actually valid to compare yourself to is an earlier previous version of you. Yeah, so where are you a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago? And have you made progress since then?

Daniel Bartels: 21:41

Yeah. Look, I did a course a number of years ago now. And one of the that was one of the big insights that she kind of led you towards, which was we all sit in a room and close their eyes. And it was his whole story and, and developed a level of anxiety around what was going to happen. And then they brought us without opening our eyes, brought us back to the room and said, hey, you've got anxiety about what might happen now, to you. But there are 100 people in this room. And every single one of them has anxiety about what's gonna happen to them. They're not thinking about you. And, and it was actually a real aha moment for me, which was, like, it's not that don't care about it wasn't that they would, would do me harm, but they're focused on their well being and themselves. You know, and when you're in sales, I think a hard piece is I always try to use the reference of where performance athletes were asked to perform and deliver month in month out, you know, if you deliver a doughnut, you deliver $0 For a period, like someone's going to come up and say, Listen, the only thing that you produce is revenue. If you're not producing those things, I can't, I can't afford to keep you. And everybody in sales is always trying for the next bigger deal. The next engagement, you're always trying to grow, just sell more. At some point, if you really engage that type of lifestyle, you're going to a push to a, you're going to push to a point where Hey, didn't work, you're in the wrong team, or in the wrong role, you got a bad territory, your products, not great, whatever the story is, stuff is going on in your life, and you're gonna get traded. You know, if you look at if you take the sporting analogy, again, like great players get traded between teams on a regular basis, and it's got nothing to do with them. So taking that that mentality, and I've coached a number of people through this over time, which is, when did you get traded? Like when did it not work out? Because I want to know that you've got the tiger stripes on your back around, hey, this didn't work. And you've learned from that. But being able to be vulnerable and say, Hey, listen, I haven't succeeded all the time. Because you haven't nobody has. And what did what did you learn from those scenarios? I think in sales, being honest to say, I've pushed hard enough that I've taken the risk, but I failed. And I learn from the failure. And I've and I've gone again, that's when people are really robust in terms of what they bring to a team what you can learn from, I think it's a really critical piece of, of learning and evolving in your career. And looking, you know, how do you get wrote that resilience and robustness?

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 24:21

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it particularly in the software space, as you touched on before, all about test and learn, right? It's like fail, fail fast, right? You just get in there, you have a hustle, give it a crack. If it's not working. That's cool. Pivot. Like, it's all good. And I think also a lot of workplaces need to have that environment where they're actually encouraging supporting failure, obviously, within limits of you know, the fiscal situation. Yeah. 100%. But you need to have a space where you've got psychological safety, right? Yeah. Where it's not just if physically safe environment where you're not going to get electrocuted, but it's also an emotionally psychologically safe environment to, so that you actually can feel free to say, Hey, I'm struggling, I've got I'm waving my white flag, I've been working on this account, three months, I'm really not making any inroads, someone else needs to have a go. It's like thinking about these sports analogies, I think is really, really helpful, particularly in teams, right? When you think of like a relay race, at the top for performance from your sprint rounds. And then they're strategically placed and who starts the relay. And then who finishes finish a couple of dudes in the middle, right, I was always number two or three, I wasn't nervous. But um, I think that it's important to think about that, that it's okay to pass the baton, because you're a team. And you're working together. Another one that I really liked thinking about the sport stuff, and just leaning into that for a sec is sometimes when you get given a new space, or a new job or a new piece of work. And it feels big and heavy and hard. Maybe it's a new CRM system you've got to learn on, maybe it's a whole bunch of new sub skills that you're supposed to develop, and you sit around, you're pitching Grizzle about it, because this is the heavy lifting, you've got to learn all this new shit that you don't want to do. It's like, okay, cool. So when you go to the gym, and you're picking up the weights, and they feel heavy, do you then just sit around and have a cry about that, and probably not, right? Because that's why you're there to lift heavy stuff to get stronger and to stretch yourself. And if it actually feels too easy, then you load it up, and you make it heavier. So it's like, if you're going to like actually be in a space where you want to grow and push, then you need to experience the discomfort and you need to accept it, embrace it, and actually really create it and love the crap out of it. Because otherwise, you're not growing and you're not pushing.

Daniel Bartels: 26:52

Yeah. And I think in that analogy, as well, I mean, I spent a fair bit at the gym, I'm an amateur weightlifter aside for all the things that I do. But you know, we as a team spent a lot of time talking about my heavy isn't your heavy, and you'll be great at some things that I'm not great at and understanding our own limitations of where we are today. Doesn't mean we can't get to where we want to get to. But being really okay with knowing that what I'm working on is hard for me right now. But also being willing to call out when you know, one of your, you know, one of your colleagues and Jimmy friends in the gym. That's not hard for them. And they're kind of having a go at the moment. But hey, what's going on for you went good injury we got to deal with, we got to manage that? Well, the same as you're doing your work in Korea. Look, I'm just my demos have not worked for the last couple of months, I'm taking a little detour to get those right, and kind of simplifying them down. So I can build them up again, or, you know, my prospect is not working, but you know, make sure that those things are working for you well, but perform to the level that you know, you can perform to and you know, just not putting in the right amount of effort at the right time doesn't work either when you've got their capacity, because you've often been given responsibility for accounts or customers or opportunities need to look at and others are relying on you to perform at that level. And, and when it's not working, not putting your hand up and saying hey, listen, I need some help, which is again, what are you okay, there's all about that can be on you. But it can also be on those around you to reach out and say, Hey, listen. Are you okay? Looks like it looks like you're not getting it right there. And, and we've got a really collaborative, you know, conversation at our gym around. Sometimes people just need that little bit of a tweak to get back into into the right movement so that they can have an impact in what in what a significant impact in their output and their outcome. I mean, you know, sales is a is a challenging pastime, career, career, you know, dedication, where you will lose more than you win. I'd love to talk a bit more about that in terms of your how do we as salespeople, or entrepreneurs really get comfortable with that scenario of, of we lose more than we win.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 29:09

Just circling back to what you were talking about when you notice that one of your your mates or your comrades isn't performing as well. Sometimes what people need is just a running mate, right? Yes, someone to just, you know, fall into line with them for a little bit and give them that extra bit of support. Because again, sales is a pretty lonely road, particularly when you're pushing for that top echelon. Like you don't really want to tell everyone what you're doing until it gets pretty close to end of month and then you dislike the moment. So but it's a long hard, like lonely road. Absolutely.

Daniel Bartels: 29:42

Yeah. Not on that as well. Often we hear the terminology and you might not be across his coding lonewolf so often see someone in sales team, they'll be referred to as that person's a lone wolf because they've done some great deals in the rough running by themselves. And it may be that they're, they've been around longer they kind of know More of the traps by themselves, they've got a greater level of tenure. But what you'll often find those lone wolves have unless this is kind of a trick for young players, those joining, joining the sales model is they'll have that they'll have that colleague, they'll have that person they spend time with on a regular basis, you know, getting advice, you know, testing their ideas. I've had a number in my career where we would just spend time writing on a whiteboard, Hey, can I grab you for half an hour, and we just draw out scenarios, and we talk about problems. And I've got this in this account, what are your thoughts on that? And the number of times you see different ways of solving a problem and, and, you know, pivot, because you just you couldn't see the forest for the trees was a critical and crucial part of that. But it's also the same person that and in fact, I've got a couple of them who are, as I've been kind of moving around roles in the last period have been some of my biggest fans, and, and boosting me up and I can't thank them enough. Because it's, it gives you that confidence back that you know what you're doing, and you right, it's time to go again, and let's pick up let's pick up the yoke. And Paul, but I think you're 100% right, it really is that piece of having that open communication with people as well.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 31:15

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you just you don't want to feel alone. There's a big difference between being alone and being lonely, right? Yes. Huge difference in that. And I think, you know, when it comes to being comfortable with having all of those metaphysical, like punches in the face of people saying no to you, and the rejection piece, like when when that's your life, and if you're not quite comfortable with that yet, because you're new to industry, then you need you absolutely need to have a team around you that keeps propping you up and keeps saying, bro, it's just about the numbers. Just keep pushing, keep hustling every time you hear a no, you're just another step closer to a yes, you know, I know it sounds kind of a bit cliched and a bit like aioli. But it can get really quite brutal. And particularly, you know, sometimes people are jokes, right? I say this a lot, you know, because I'm trying to extend my reach too, right? So constantly talking to people telling them about my clinic and what I'm doing. And everyone will say, Oh, that sounds like a great idea. Let's let's catch up and talk about that. And then you try really hard to actually make those next steps meetings happen. And those conversations happen and everyone's busy and the diaries are clashing. And I have a I have a rule where when I'm speaking to people in pitching or prospecting that I say it is totally okay to say no to me. Absolutely fine. But it's not okay to jerk me around. Yeah. Because again, let's say if it's if it's not something that aligns with what your company wants to achieve, and you don't want to invest in your people in this way, that's cool. That's fine. If you've got your own thing going on babe, you do you but don't do that whole year, maybe or POSCO or let's catch up and think about it. Or just pick one.

Daniel Bartels: 33:00

Yeah. And I think one of the one of the things I've coached teams on a team members over time on is is taking a customer to know is a really important skill to learn. For starters, people don't actually like to centre they like to say yes. And so often you'll see an in in sales context, want to clarify that for business, you might say, Hold on, I've got lots of customers say no right now. No, they're not actually saying no, they're not saying anything. They're not saying yes, but they're actually not saying no. And when you look at sales pipelines, often you'll see this long tail of smelly deals, they've been around for a long time. And there's, there's a bit of inertia with a customer, we're waiting on this thing to happen, or, you know, that particular contact just left or the product wasn't quite right. They haven't made a decision with their competitor yet, but haven't made a decision with ours. An important skill to learn is to get them to that definitive answer or, actually, it's not no. Okay, so if it's not no, what are you saying? Are you saying yes? Are you saying I need more information? I need to actually define these other companies. Let's go and do those things. Because if it's not any of those things, let's be clear. Is it No. And being really okay with it's no line through? We should asked, happy to come back and talk to in the future. But even in getting that definitive answer, like that's a really important thing for salespeople to lower anxiety is the definitive answer. We're moving on. We're going and chasing the next, the next opportunity. And I think I think that's one of the biggest causes of anxiety amongst entrepreneurs and sales professionals. When you think there's the potential for all of these things that underneath it, you know, is not there and you're scared and can cerned and worried about, but what if I left this opportunity that could have been there? What if? What if I said no and walked away from it? Rather than just saying this isn't a this isn't the right one for us? This isn't the right one for them. The timing is not right. Okay, great, we're gonna cut it, we're gonna move on. And sometimes the timings not good. Sometimes, I mean, the bank means the bank manager is at the door, right? But at least you know what the new problem to go and solve is, rather than being in this limbo land of halfway half there. And I think that's a, in my experience as being assaulted. It's a it's a crucial skill of learning to take customers to know.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 35:41

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, again, part of our human condition, right, is that we're wired to look for patterns. And yeah, our brains are constantly just trying to keep us safe. In the way that we're trying to keep ourselves safe is by lowering the ambiguity. So we don't like things that we don't know, right, essentially. And that's what anxiety is, it's just a fear of the unknown. And so how do we deal with that? Well, sometimes we get really, really creative, and we just start inventing all of these outcomes and situations that may or may not be real. And we do lots of fortune telling, and mind reading, which is really, really fun. Not helpful, but can be quite an interesting thing to think about. But really, the best way to be able to engineer out ambiguity is just to take action, to lean into that awkward conversation, and literally just get on the phone and be like, Hey, I haven't heard from you for a couple of weeks. I'm just going to lean straight into this. Are we done here?

Daniel Bartels: 36:41

Yeah, yeah, I think the other area of anxiety that people often associate with sales, is that outreach to somebody that you don't know, cold calling or developing a relationship early on, it's daunting, even in our personal lives, you know, ask someone out for a date for the first time or you know, you go to a new club and want to join spreads, you start a new company, and you've and you've got to go around and meet your colleagues like that, that can be really daunting for people, when they when they don't have a really good picture of themselves in terms of where they are. At any advice for people how to kind of deal with that type of anxiety, it really comes

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 37:19

down to having an accurate self assessment. And basically, what that means is, is knowing your place as it stands in the hierarchy of the information also in the space that you're going into. Yeah, so some people, you know, have a really inflated sense of their own skills and their own capabilities and their skills levels here, but their confidence is up here. And that's dangerous, right? You don't want to say that. Other people are the other way around, which is like the imposter syndrome, stuff that pops up where they've got these mad skills, but they think that they're pretty shit. Where you actually want to be is just a little bit shy of your skill level, so that you're constantly still pushing and striving and open to new opportunities and open to having a growth mindset. That's the best kind of space to be in, when it comes to, you know, going into those new environments. And again, this this pops up for people all the time, particularly when they have to start doing networking, for the first time going into those big rooms with, you know, bunch of business cards stuffed in their pants, and they're like, far out. What am I going to do? It's just taking a moment to recognise that every single person in that room has been in the exact position you're in right now.

Daniel Bartels: 38:30

Yes,

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 38:31

it all started at that space. And also, again, leaning into it and acknowledging it, the best thing you can do when you're opening conversation, if you feel nervous is say, I'm actually feeling a bit nervous right now. But this is really important. So I'm going to keep going. And because then also, not only are you recognise it in yourself, which means you're disempowering it because you're labelling and calling it out, but it also means you're setting expectation. The other person says you're sweaty, and you're a bit bumbling, and you don't quite know what you're saying. They're going to be like, Oh, that's cool. She said she was a bit nervous. So I'll just make it easy. I've been in that space too. I recognise that.

Daniel Bartels: 39:08

Yeah. I think the other thing particularly in that networking environment is to understand that quite often the people that you're going to talk to a justice issues as you are, because somebody's got a really high middle. Look, one of my good friends and I won't name what company she works for. It's work for some really senior organisations, like you know, I'm talking ASX 10 level organisations in very senior roles. When I talk to her like she's, I've got to go and present at this particular conference and I'm really concerned about and she does it all the time. And you know, she she she can display when you're talking to her a level that I was quite taken aback by in terms of I thought this would just be taken in your stride and still gets you know, she moves rolls. She's a little bit nervous about what people are gonna think about her and, and all the things that I experienced in my roles. So I think understanding that the person, you're going to go and talk to just a person, they've got just as much, you know, self, you know, self image challenges that you might have, or, again, they started where you started. Often, if you can build that kind of middle ground between the fact that you you may have something in common, or maybe the fact you have nothing in common is what you've got in common, right? That conversation with them. And then, you know, progress from there as to humans, I think is a really important part of just what great salespeople do it people who are just great humans are really good at building that that piece and, and acknowledging when you're not good at those things as well.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 40:47

Yeah, yeah. It's all about being authentic. Right. Yeah. Again, that's, that's what I really like about the theme of CSI or Okay, day, it's, it's not about, you know, creating a time and you know, on Tuesday, 11 o'clock, we're gonna have those chat. It's

Daniel Bartels: 41:01

not about cupcakes, right. It's about having patience. Yeah.

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 41:05

It's actually just recognising when there's a need, when you can see that someone's you know, a little bit wobbly. And just going in in a really authentic way, and just being like, Hey, how you doing? And also sometimes that's just checking in with yourself, as well. Yeah, yeah. Just reviewing where you're at and how you're feeling. And if you need to make changes. It's interesting. I was having this chat with another person in industry last week about the idea of self care and self love. Yeah. She said, Oh, would you give a presentation on that, and I tried really hard to roll my eyes quietly, because I'm like, man, like, it's my own audience in the financial services industry, I'm pretty sure we're not gonna get anyone is we pay for that one. Because self care self love doesn't really like that doesn't really nail it. Right? But sometimes, you know, thinking about the concept of it, if you can pull it back a little bit. It's like, what if you reframe self care to be more around progress? And like, how much progress are you making? And what do you need to progress to the next step? Because really, that's all you need to do. A lot of times when people get stuck, and they feel like shit, and they get caught caught up in their heads, they think there needs to be this massive one ad to start doing better and feeling better. It's not true, you only need to make a step. And just another step after that. So it's about thinking from a self care perspective, what do I need right now to keep progressing and maybe that is just you need to just go for a run, maybe it's you need to put fresh sheets on your bed, maybe it's you just need to have a, you know, catch up with your mentor and get a bit of a kick in the pants so that you can work your pipeline a bit harder, because you're a bit worried about the end of month of the schools, like, what does progress look like? As opposed to, you know, shall we run a bubble bath and, you know, get a novel?

Daniel Bartels: 42:56

Yeah, well, cuz I saw, I love your opinion on this, I saw a report the other day that said the, and if I could find out, I'll put a link in the comments. But exercise supposedly has a greater impact on mental health than any of the drugs that are available, prescribed by the medical fraternity. And, you know, so one of the pieces of advice, I'm sure it was the as the American Australian AMA, we're pushing out saying, you know, in order to solve anxiety, and a lot of the areas of depression, it's, it's be physically active. And, you know, for so long, the companies of many companies will support employees with a gym membership acceptable, they don't often do is make that space that says, hey, it's the middle of the day, get outside at the office and go for a walk. You know, Hey, guys, for your lunch break, don't sit in the room we've got here, like go down the road and come back and have that physical move, which I think is, you know, we've got very sedentary lives now. And then I'm sitting in an in a home office, and, you know, I haven't moved more than 100 metres from from my home today. And that's great. And it's important, I want to go to the gym this morning, actually. But it's, it's having that movement is so important for humans. And I think we don't build that as part of our structure into what needs to be done and, and maybe that's part of the conversation we need to have with our colleagues is Hey, are you okay? I've got your desk I've got your line for 15 Don't ever walk come back to him right, get some sun get some vitamin D. I think that's a really important part of what we need to be doing as humans

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 44:30

absolutely couldn't agree more. I, I try really hard to start every day with you know, a good 20 or 30 minutes of outside walking with my dogs that no headphones, no mobile phone, just me and the animals out there breathing the air, hearing the birds, you know, smelling the smells, doing all the things and I swear to God, the days that I don't do that is so much harder, or they feel like just more of a grind than the days that I do. And literally there's brain science that support says Ryan, if you actually spend the first 20 minutes of your awake day, with your heart rate, just around 120 beats per minute, you'll get up to 20 hours of increased neural function. Wow, it's a pretty good ROI. Yeah. 20 minutes at 120 beats per minute. So we're not talking hit classes or anything hectic, it's literally just a brisk walk. Yeah, maybe you squats if you're into that, and, and you get like mad returns on it. It's really, really good. And now that you know, we're almost into springtime, it's um, yeah, definitely getting a go

Daniel Bartels: 45:35

once you did get out, enjoy the outdoors. And the other side of that. I mean, we're both dog owners, I can't recommend to anybody enough own a dog. There's there is there is there are very few things of other animals can be similar, but I find dogs are just unique in their relationship with you, you know, you treat them well, you come home and there's there's a certain piece of love other another entity that just is always so excited to see you just wants to be with you all. And that is I think, a really important piece for for anyone's, you know, strong mental health and how you deal with things. So look, we're getting kind of close to the top of the hour. And I do want to make sure that we give people some some actionable things to come out of our, our session at a time today. It was talking about a whole bunch of different elements of, of, you know, AOK day and I think, you know, one of the key actions is the make the time reach out towards some people. But you know, you're the expert, I really do want to what advice what actions can we can we, you know, encourage our listeners to take today on Are you okay day to get the most out of it?

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 46:47

Yeah, just just set yourself a goal. I mean, everyone in sales is really like numbers driven, goal driven. So literally set yourself a goal. And every week for the next three weeks, you'll catch up with three friends and text messages don't count voicemails don't count, you actually go and physically see them and hold space and ask the question, are you okay? And by holding space, that's that means without judgement, it means without, you know, pushing advice or having any agenda. It's just being there and being a good human. And it makes sure that one of those people you're checking in on the weeklies yourself.

Daniel Bartels: 47:24

Yeah, well, maybe we can make it a part of a challenge. If if our listeners have had, you know, taken that up, made that call to one or two colleagues, look, please you know, and organise that time not just made it a text etc. Please drop a comment into the post, either or the podcasts or the posts we have seen the the the video that you've actually done that I think spreading the word and encouraging others this is an important thing that we've done is definitely the the direction and the message of Ioh K day and it doesn't need to wait for an IU. Okay, day, it's something we should really think about. Regularly lives and our relationships with, with our friends and colleagues around us and family as well. You know, I'm I will kind of wrap up the call. And in my 11 year old daughter reminds me on a regular basis when she'll come home and it'll be a school day or a dancing or a water holiday, whatever she's playing and, and she wants to complain. And I'll try and solve it. And she's very, very good at saying Dad, I don't want you to solve this. I just want to share the story, we can get it off my chest. And I'm constantly reminded that that's such a really important part of like how people communicate, share, you know, problem shared is a problem halved. So from and I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast. I'm sure all of our listeners have learned a lot. I know I have. So it is not a okay day, please reach out. We've challenged you if you've loved the video, please like and subscribe down below. If you're watching on YouTube listening to us on Apple or Spotify. Please give us five stars and drop a comment and subscribe. We'd love to know more about our listeners. But Brian, thank you so much for joining as well. Have a great

Bronwyn Pendaglion: 49:09

last comments if I can get them in there. If if there is someone that when you're catching up and maybe it is you're catching up with yourself and you do have a serious concern for that friend or colleague. lifelines always available 24/7 The number is 1311 14 so that facility is always there. But if there is someone that is you know, falling down that slippery rabbit hole and you're genuinely concerned please make sure that you reach out people kill themselves and they get depressed guys and typically men are the ones that go to that action without much thought so cannot impress enough if there is something happening in your bills you know pretty heavy make sure that you're you're getting the right kind of support to prevent something really to

Daniel Bartels: 49:54

absolutely put the number on the screen but yeah guys do reach out that's a great clip from and I did it to me Genet fully wrapped up. So I'm glad you, I'm glad you caught it before we wrap it up. Everyone. Thank you so much for the for joining. Again like subscribe, reach out for lifeline if you need to reach out to colleagues and friends. Have a great day. Thanks so bye.

Unknown: 50:19

In life, we're stronger together. Just like good friends, your support can make all the difference as we face life's challenges together. These challenges may include exam stress, financial worries, mental health, and relationship issues. We all want to be there for our friends in tough times. But sometimes we're not sure how. That's why we've created these resources to help you become a better friend and have those important conversations. Start by spotting the signs. If something feels off with a friend, trust your instincts and ask, are you okay? It's not always easy for someone to ask for help. So be there supportive ally. We've also compiled aid articles with practical tips to help you support your friends. Whether they're dealing with exam stress and certainty about the future financial troubles low self esteem, motivation challenges, relationship issues, mental health concerns or loneliness and remember it's all a part of the Are you okay campaign leading up to Are you okay Day, a day dedicated to encouraging these conversations and checking in on your loved ones. If you need immediate support, you can talk to a lifeline crisis supporter 24 sevens by calling 1311 14 Let's make a difference together. Learn to hashtag friend better and join us on our you Okay, day