Spy Games in Sales: How to Think Like an Intelligence Officer and Win with Danielle Pearson | GrowthPulse The B2B Sales Podcast Ep15

Ever wonder how being a Critical Thinker can lead to success in sales? Get ready to find out in our latest conversation with Danielle Pearson, a seasoned sales professional with a career extending from the US military & the intelligence community to the top end of commercial & enterprise sales. Danielle's riveting journey features stints in consulting, critical thinking, and analytics, culminating in her current role in Australia. Her wisdom on the need for reflection in decision-making offers valuable insights for all.

Sit tight as Danielle unveils the magic of applying critical thinking in decision making, and how it helps untangle intricate problems. With her diverse experiences, she ingeniously draws parallels between an engineer's approach and the traits of accomplished salespeople. Danielle's tenure at Salesforce, Deloitte & Accenture has honed her comprehension of customer data and digital transformation, equipping her with a unique approach to successful sales.

Lastly, prepare to explore the landscape of thought leadership and the trials of scaling businesses with Danielle. She'll delve into her experiences in the SaaS environment, the scale-up space, and how her time at Salesforce continues to prove invaluable. She stresses the importance of understanding your customer base and acknowledges the problem your product or service aims to solve. As a bonus, Danielle offers some intriguing data from Blackbird on VC portfolios and their implications for scale-ups. Brace yourself for a thrilling ride through Danielle's career and wisdom!

Transcript

Danielle Pearson: 0:00

Yeah, there's a couple things that I often see. One why do you exist? What pain point are you solving? Probably two, and they're a little bit generic, but they're meaningful. One and I think it's been a consistent theme throughout this actually both of them have is don't be afraid to take a step back and think about things. Pause Someone gave me that advice a long time ago, which is basically just take a step back and breathe. Whatever you think is absolutely critical to jump into right at this moment in time, reflect on it and again the conversation we had previously, which is we're so my up if they driven towards an outcome and it's just go and go get it done, it's take a step back. Does this make sense? Is this going to achieve what I'm seeking to achieve? Is there a better way?

Daniel Bartels: 0:46

Welcome to Growth Pulse, the B2B sales podcast. You might be a salesperson, you could lead a sales team, maybe run a business, or you're a battle-tested entrepreneur. Then we built this podcast for you. Great salespeople are built, not born. We learn so much from the deals we win, but we learn even more from the deals we lose. In each episode, we bring you some of the worlds leading salespeople, sales leaders and experts in sales tech to share their best lessons from both their wins and their losses.

Daniel Bartels: 1:18

Before we start, please check out the screen of your phone or laptop and, if you're watching on YouTube, make sure you've clicked subscribe and press that like button down below. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple, click the plus sign to follow so we can let you know when we publish each new episode. If you liked the episode, drop us a comment with any questions about the show. We'd love to get to know our audience. Great businesses always feature world-class salespeople, and the best salespeople are always learning, so let's jump in. Welcome everybody to another episode of Growth Pulse, the B2B sales podcast. I'm Dan Bartels. I'm joined by Simon Peterson. Mate, welcome back to another episode.

Simon Peterson: 2:04

Thanks, mate, great to be here again. It's been a couple of weeks, I think.

Daniel Bartels: 2:08

It has been. We did record a couple in the bank and we've had a bit of a small personal hiatus, which is nice to be back on the show again, right, and we've got a great guest joining us today, Danielle Pearson, who has got one of the most varied and exciting backgrounds I think I've known in my working career. So look, mate, let's get her in. Danielle, welcome to the show.

Danielle Pearson: 2:31

Hey guys, thanks for having me.

Daniel Bartels: 2:33

Now, danielle, I don't even know how to properly introduce you to the show because of really how kind of wild your kind of experience has been. So I don't really always want to take the wind out of your sales. But, look, give everyone a bit of a sort of your historic background, of how you got into sales and sort of what you were doing before. How do I kind of describe that?

Danielle Pearson: 2:59

Look, I don't know, I don't think there are words that describe it Mainly when I talk about my background. So to give a little bit of an idea, I actually started my career in the US military, which that's a whole other story. I got into it because I'm American and America is very different than the Aussie market and school is extremely expensive. So ultimately I ended up in the Air Force because I wanted to go to a good school and I needed a way to pay for it. But what ended up happening was is I became a military officer and I was an intelligence.

Danielle Pearson: 3:28

So I actually spent about nine years in the US intelligence community and part of that time was spent with consulting. So I was with Deloitte and Accenture for a period of time but spent my time with the agency and on covert platforms and how to support those platforms and really learn the ins and outs of analytics and critical thinking. But I was really lucky that I had shadowed a series of partners that knew how to sell, and so I was at the precipice of building a new practice within the Intel community and did that for about nine years and then came out to Australia via Deloitte and then decided about a year in that, hang on, I want to get out of consulting, I want to do something different and ultimately brought me to sales. So that's kind of a roundabout explanation.

Simon Peterson: 4:13

So, daniel, that's an amazing story. How did you find your way to Australia? What brought you here?

Danielle Pearson: 4:17

So, as I was in the Intel community and I'm grateful for that time though it took me a long time to reconcile what that meant to me and probably the skills that I took away from it. But one of the key aspects was is I always felt it was picked for me and I was desperately trying to get out of it, and so there were times where I had to go further into it to get out, and I finally, when I was at Deloitte, after doing about three and a half years of building that practice, finally looked and said all right, I'm 29 years old, I have to get out of this now and I really want to go into the commercial realm. And at the time, it was right at the end of the global financial crisis and I wanted to go into sales. And I would get to the very end of all of these interviews and the sales process. They would say, hey, look, you're great, but you have no prior real sales experiences. We look at it and we're not going to hire you. And so I said, well, all right, what are my other options? And Deloitte had an international exchange program, and I think they still have it to this day, which is fantastic, and originally I was supposed to go to Barbados. I had picked an opportunity to go to Barbados and build gosh.

Danielle Pearson: 5:25

Deloitte at the time was focusing on the Americas and getting more out of the consulting markets in the Caribbean. They wanted to consolidate, and so they were looking at building financial services in government and they wanted a consultant that had an entrepreneurial spirit. And so I said, great, I'm going to Barbados. And they cut me my offer and I went it's a 400% to 600% living increase. Are you kidding me? They didn't increase my salary at all and I thought, well, this isn't going to work. And I looked at one of my mentors and I said, well, what would you do? And he goes well, I'd go get another offer to create a horse race. And so Australia was never, ever, ever on the radar for me and I just ended up.

Danielle Pearson: 6:03

At the time, Australia was one of the few places that was taking interviews at the end of the GFC, and so I finally interviewed with Australia and got an offer and then declined it and I said, no, not going. And ultimately, how I ended up here was there was a partner at Deloitte that literally called me at midnight on a Friday my time in Washington DC and I didn't pick up the phone and he sent me a text and he said pick up, I'm going to call you back in five minutes. And I thought, well, that's brazen, like it's midnight my time. And he called five minutes later, like he said, and I reluctantly picked up the phone and he then proceeded to tell me that I was an absolute idiot. And he goes you don't go to Barbados to build a career, that's a vacation destination.

Danielle Pearson: 6:47

And I said I'm pretty sure Australia is also a vacation destination. And he said you're making a mistake. Basically, I think you should reconsider. And I said fine, that's OK. Great, thanks for that. I'm going to go to bed now, by the way. Thanks for this. And I took about a month to reconsider, went down to Barbados and stepped foot on the ground and went no, this isn't the right. I haven't been to Australia, but I know this isn't right. And that's ultimately what brought me here.

Daniel Bartels: 7:14

Wow. So that's what 15 years ago now?

Danielle Pearson: 7:17

Oh, don't age me that much. Yeah, look, it's about 12, 13 years old, so not too far away.

Daniel Bartels: 7:23

Yeah, well, not too far away.

Daniel Bartels: 7:25

Yeah, it's just. It's one of those things. It's amazing when I see those who've come in and built careers here where all of a sudden they kind of look back and go, oh my gosh, that was like that long ago. I mean I can't believe I set the detect 15 years ago now myself. It's just like it feels like it was yesterday. So you move from Intel into consulting, into sales. I mean I'm sure when you started a career in the military, working for big corporates and eventually tech companies, probably wasn't on the pathway of what you were considering that you'd end up doing. What do you think were the key skills that you learned during that period of your life? That's really built the foundation for what you're doing now. And look, I do want to touch on sort of the exciting business you're building now as well, but what you've done in your career, but also what's leading to for you now.

Danielle Pearson: 8:16

Yeah, I kind of take into consideration the notion of both nature and nurture. So your environment and your career and the choices that you make and the skills that you learn, they absolutely influence you. But the innate you also influences you. I don't know if you guys have ever taken the Clifton strengths. I think they've got the Gallup 5 strengths. I found that I typically don't like psychometric testing, but I actually found that to be incredibly enlightening, not just how I show up, but how other people show up, because we're all living in our own subjective universes.

Danielle Pearson: 8:50

I happen to be positively and negatively very strategic minded, so I can often see the chessboard, all the pieces on the chessboard and where I want to go, and so going back to university before I got into, the Air Force is actually a company like Deloitte was always on my radar. I kind of thought, ok, I'll go through the military. I don't know what to expect of this. I said earlier that I signed my contract with the Air Force a day before September 11th and not that that would have changed my decision, but it certainly put things into perspective and I had no idea what was going to happen, both from an excitement perspective but also a fear perspective. I'm now in the military, I'm potentially going places that are quite dangerous.

Danielle Pearson: 9:38

So when I was in the Air Force, I always had that Northern Star. I always knew that I was going to get out. I always knew that I wanted to eventually go into the commercial world. But I also left a level of latitude to say, ok, I've got my Northern Star, but I don't know how this is actually going to pan out.

Danielle Pearson: 9:53

And so I remember when I was, and so I gave flexibility and openness with that, and as I was getting out of the Air Force, I ended up just soliciting a lot of people's opinions hey, where, I want to go to New York and I want to live this dream.

Danielle Pearson: 10:06

And I had this great idea of what I was going to achieve. And then I looked at the reality and I was going to be living on $30,000, $40,000 a year and not having a luxurious life that I envisioned. And so I had a lot of people say to me look, you have a high clearance, you have a TSSCI and you can go to Washington DC and you can go work for companies like Accenture, deloitte, and play within the Federal Sphere or do other things within that area. You can gain skills and then eventually go into the commercial world. And so I'm rambling a little bit, but I guess what I'm trying to say was is that I always had that Northern Star. I always had that idea of where do I want to end up, what outcome do I want to drive, and then allow life to kind of jostle me a little bit to take me on that journey.

Daniel Bartels: 10:47

Yeah right. So in that journey, what do you think that? Have you had to really define it down to a singular set of key skills? What do you think that you built the foundations for, and what are you really lean on now?

Danielle Pearson: 11:02

Yeah, for me and again, we all have unique skill sets For me it's really critical thinking and critical reasoning, and that goes back to seeing the big picture. And definitely when I was in the intelligence community, it definitely capitalized on those skill sets and taught me how to expand upon them, which is really not taking things at face value and trying to subvert heuristics as much as possible, knowing that we're wired to do that. If you've ever read Thinking Fast, thinking Slow, thinking Slow has a much greater caloric intake than thinking quickly, hence why we tend to think fast rather than slow. But really it's the big picture thinking, that strategic mindset, and then the critical reasoning associated with that, and that critical reasoning even comes down to choices. Right, I had Barbados or Australia, and even though I had someone intervene and be quite brazen with me, there was still a moment of reflection of, well, ok, what do I think I'm going to get out of these and how do I kind of critically break down the positive and negatives to make that next step?

Simon Peterson: 12:04

Danielle. I'm a massive fan of Daniel Kahneman. Incredible books, thinking Fast, slow, amazing, amazing journey, I think, for the audience. Do you want to define what you mean by critical thinking?

Danielle Pearson: 12:19

Yeah, I mean, I think if I and I can't paraphrase the book, it's been a while since I've looked at it. But critical, let's actually go with more simplistic thinking, more of the heuristics, right? It's kind of taking things You're in an environment and somebody gives you a piece of information. You don't really take it, you take it at face value and go, ok, I'm going to make plans off of that. One of the really good examples I experienced was Salesforce. You know, within the sales sphere and there's nothing wrong with this we're going to work our way into the health care and life sciences environment and we're going to do that through medical devices. And why are we going to do that? Because we've got existing use cases and medical devices. They've got deep pockets and money to spend and we've got a product that actually aligns to that space. Cool, right, and actually, if you look at the logic, that makes complete sense.

Danielle Pearson: 13:06

But I'd actually put that more in this simplistic thinking. Right, you're connecting the immediate dots that are six feet in front of you. The more thinking slow or critical thinking and this is a real world example is when you actually look at, for instance, the data and you break down that example I just gave of medical devices and this is where we're going to sell and where we're going to get our beach head and really expand into. When you look at the data of that and you apply more of slow thinking, critical thinking, what you actually find is well, in this country there's only 500 medical device companies and actually 50% of those manufacture medical devices and export them. So your product offering doesn't even align to that 50% of that grouping. Then you've already got a 20% market share and then, in addition to that, 30% of those are multinationals. So that actually changes your entire business model. So actually you're indexing your growth strategy on 30 or 40 companies and when you take that lens, that logic you just applied in this more simplistic thinking no longer applies.

Simon Peterson: 14:07

And I guess see, you're at Salesforce and that's a high pressure sales environment. You've got a background in strategic thinking. You've got some Deloitte experience. What did the likes of Salesforce, the whirlwind that is that environment, what did that add to your skill sets?

Danielle Pearson: 14:28

Oh, so there are. You know I tell you what, and I think across our careers at least I know in mine while every experience adds to your toolkit, you know, good or bad, what you took away from it. I think for me, there are two probably real clear experiences that I look and go. Those made a really big impact in my life. One was my experience in the US and Washington DC with Deloitte, and the other was Salesforce and Salesforce one taught me SAS, which, if you think about the environment now, I mean I entered in 2013, 2014, to have cloud and understanding how all those things fit together and the expansive definition of CRM, not just leads and opportunities, but how all of that customer data all fits together, how customers buy and how they think about digital transformation and seeing where things go wrong. That myopic thinking, you know it always shocks me when you look at large transformation projects and yet there's often a myopic way of thinking about how to get those systems in. So it taught me sales. It taught me tech. It also taught me, you know, when I had come from being a military officer where I had people that I was the leader. That's what it was.

Danielle Pearson: 15:44

And then at Deloitte, as you kind of move up the ranks, even as a manager. You have consultants and analysts that are reporting to you for lack of a better word but in sales it was the first time that I only really had to look after myself. But you also have to influence other people. I don't have people directly reporting to me anymore. I'm not Lieutenant or Captain Pearson, I'm just some random sales person in fact, a win-gee sales person at that. And so how do you get people, how do you influence people to do what you need them to do in a high-precious situation, to close a deal. But they don't actually have to listen to you. So I learned a whole host of skills and I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for Salesforce, and I genuinely mean that. It was a really pivotal experience for me.

Simon Peterson: 16:27

What I was going to say is I've met a lot of salespeople over my career and one of the things I've often noticed is the best salespeople I've ever worked with. I've often had a background in consulting, you understand. I think that critical thinking piece is a piece of it, but you take a view in your sales cycle where you're solving a genuine problem for a client and you're piecing it together and you're not just asking for an order at the end of the quarter. You've got there's a lot more to it and I think the best salespeople I've worked with definitely have that little bit of an engineering brain, a problem-solving brain, as you mentioned before, thinking three steps ahead of the chess game, et cetera, and those consulting skills, I think, really make the best salespeople. Do you feel like that certainly helped your entry into Salesforce, and then obviously we'll jump beyond Salesforce in a second. But I think putting those two things together is kind of an interesting mix.

Danielle Pearson: 17:29

Yeah, it is. One thing that it kind of always interests me is the bare problem of how people operate, and that goes back to how we're taught, which is we're not taught to stop and think. We're often taught just to react, to pick what we think is the right answer and move forward. And what you're calling out is that's actually showing up now in our business lives. You did this great yesterday. Now go give me a return and result tomorrow. And in order to break that cycle, you actually have to have an awareness of it and a desire to break it, and so that typically starts with leaders that understand that had been burnt and are looking for someone like me that can kind of help change that across the organization.

Simon Peterson: 18:14

Yeah, amazing, I think. Look, you've now moved back into the world of consulting, advising, thought leadership, et cetera. Tell me, I guess you've moved out of that whole software sales mentality but you've obviously taken a heck of a lot of those skills and moved them into what you're currently doing. Now to tell us a little bit about day to day for Danielle these days what are you seeing out there? What are the opportunities you're jumping on? What excites you?

Danielle Pearson: 18:43

Yeah, so my main goal. A couple of years ago I had a friend to pull me aside. I was in a job I didn't like and it was during COVID, and I just went oh, I don't want to make a jump. I'm not happy, but I don't want to make a jump because I'm in the unknown. And my friend pulled me aside and he goes you strike me as a thought leader. That's what you strike me as. I don't know if you've ever had the experience where somebody external to you has made an observation that as soon as they say it, you go oh, that's exactly what I am. I couldn't put it into words, but thank you.

Danielle Pearson: 19:13

And so when you look at the thought leadership world, I break it into two kind of groupings. One is a company of one, somebody who has a set of skills. So I typically get relegated to strategy. I don't always think I sit in strategy, but I get relegated to strategy and it's going and offering strategic workshops and let's talk about your mission, vision, purpose and let's get into the data and your baseline setting and where's the business headed? Kind of this company of one that I can align to a specific industry or a skill set, but I just want to offer contracts and kind of jump from world to world and that's fine, no judgments whatsoever. And then you have the other style of thought leader and that's somebody who's got a platform that isn't necessarily going to align to market need but has a message, and unfortunately I sit in the. I have a message and trying to align market need. So for me, I'm actually an aspiring author and a public speaker, so I'm working on getting on a TEDx talk about thinking, about critical thinking and what you know I learned from the intelligence community and how that aligns. I'm writing a book right now on why strategy gets a bad rap.

Danielle Pearson: 20:18

So basically my experience predominantly at Salesforce but other SaaS businesses that are hyper focused on hyper execution and often miss the whole analyze, the data piece and the strategy bit. I have to keep a roof over my head, so I do work with with some companies. A lot of them sit within the scale up space and not far removed from technology. So my skills at Salesforce, for instance in the SaaS environment, still very much apply. Because I operated in those worlds.

Danielle Pearson: 20:47

I understand what they're trying to build and I understand you know what does it mean to be an account executive and actually fill the pipeline? What are the workings between marketing and sales and how to get this together? What does this mean from the on flow of product and the you know the great market data that sales people come back with? How do you actually take that customer information and market data and align that to your product to make sure that the product's actually a market fit? And so I actually spend from day to day if I'm not writing or devising some type of pack to talk about critical thinking and how to get out of that, thinking fast, thinking slow and how to bridge the two worlds. I end up leaning quite heavily on my Salesforce SaaS experience with businesses that are looking to grow but they're looking for more of that sustainable growth and have an open mind of how they go ahead and achieve that rather than being myopically focused on a singular outcome.

Daniel Bartels: 21:39

It's usually raised at that scale up space, which is a piece that so many SaaS companies sell into and I think for a lot of our listeners are actually in that space or in those types of organizations themselves. So I'd be really intrigued to understand, you know, when you approach that sort of typical customer that you're dealing with at the moment in that scale up space. What are the what's the? If there's one feature that kind of stands out the most, where you know that's their Achilles heel, what is the thing that is, you know, in most of your customers that they really have to focus on and I think the value piece here is not just for those companies but for those who talk to these companies to understand what happens on their side, because I can't tell you the number of times I've seen salespeople at any different organization just not understand their customer base really well. They might understand a bit about the sort of the market and some demographics etc. But understanding the space their customers are in is a really poorly investigated space.

Danielle Pearson: 22:41

Yeah, there's a couple things that I often see. One why do you exist? What pain point are you solving? And there was some really good data that came out of I think it was Blackbird, on portfolio venture capital portfolios. So, if you're in a scale up this kind of notion of I've got venture funding, so I'm good I must have a good idea because I've had a venture capitalist invest in me. But actually you probably do have a good idea. That's how you solidified funding.

Danielle Pearson: 23:10

Most people aren't able to solidify funding but actually if you look at and I released an infographic on this not long ago if you look at a portfolio of about 100 companies that a VC might invest in, they automatically anticipate that about 64% of those are going to go belly up, that they're going to completely lose their money. 32% of those are 32% They'll break even on and about four they'll actually make their profit on. So even if you're in a scale up and the astute CEOs know this and leadership teams know this the odds that you're not going to make it are actually still fairly high, even if you're sitting at a series C, series D kind of environment. So what I often find is that one do you know what you're solving in market and will someone pay for it? And I think that's a. I was working with a company that's digitizing the door tag on a hotel and actually what I didn't realize and it's something like 70% of businesses still have some type of analog manual, paper based process, which is just crazy. It's 2023. It's insane to think that.

Danielle Pearson: 24:15

But in this particular hospitality example, you know the back end of a maid or a Betty actually getting scheduled to go clean a room and if you think about the situation of a hotel, if you're not checking out that day, then there's really no understanding of when you're going to leave your room. And so if you've ever been stalked by a maid, it's because he or she is desperately trying to get in to clean that room, because she needs to check that off, her paper based blotter. And you would think, oh, that's a great technology piece. They should be killing it because it's all manual and there's a lot of efficiencies lost. But one of the realities is and they're still out there, you know, really making inroads but the reality is is, if you look at the business model of hospitality and who's actually going to pay for that and where the money comes from from a developer who's actually devising a hotel through to you know who's actually running that hotel in the margins that they're sitting at. Just because you're solving a very logical pain point doesn't actually mean there's going to be money associated with it. So going back is what pain are you solving if someone going to pay for it? And then of the challenges and this is one that I see also regularly of the challenges that you're seeking to solve, are they the actual challenges you need to solve?

Danielle Pearson: 25:29

So one example and this wasn't a client, but this was an organization I worked with. You know, the CEO felt that he had a really big problem with sales. You know, marketing was meeting all of their KPIs. Sales was not meeting their KPIs and it must be a sales problem. And then you actually look at the organization and they had a massive sales problem.

Danielle Pearson: 25:50

But that's largely because when sales would go out and talk about product and they'd say, oh, the product's going to be ready in six months, and then actually the product was ready in 18 months, well, the client already walked off by then, and so one sales couldn't influence product to get the product cycles to where it needed to be, and so they always were kind of lying, even though they had no intention of lying. And then, furthermore, when you actually looked at the marketing KPIs, they did nothing to help the salesperson fill the funnel. So they were picked as KPIs and the marketer, who was very brilliant and very motivated, hit them out of the park, but they didn't actually do anything to help sales. So it was like, well, yes, you do have a sales problem, but not for the reason that you think you have a sales problem. It's not about firing the VP or getting rid of that account executive. It's about moving the challenges out of their way.

Simon Peterson: 26:38

So, danielle, we've had a great talk about critical thinking. We're sort of coming towards the end of the hour, I guess one of the things that we often like to ask our guests towards the end of the show. You've been in a whole bunch of really interesting positions, learned a lot over that period of time. Our audience is mostly in sales. Can you summarize any one or two key things you've learned across the way that you would like to give advice to some of the people listening, because I think you've got a wealth of experience, really interesting, diverse background? I'd love to hear sort of one or two gold nuggets that you'd like to share with the audience.

Danielle Pearson: 27:20

Only two and they're a little bit generic, but they're meaningful. One and I think it's been a consistent theme throughout this, actually both of them have is don't be afraid to take a step back and think about things. Pause, someone gave me that advice a long time ago, which is basically just take a step back and breathe Whatever you think is absolutely critical to jump into right at this moment in time, reflect on it and again the conversation we had previously, which is we're so myopically driven towards an outcome and it's just go go, get it done. It's take a step back. Does this make sense? Is this going to achieve what I'm seeking to achieve? Is there a better way that doesn't take hours? You don't have to do a strategic offsite to do that. It can be five minutes of just reflect, as this makes sense. So that's number one. And the second piece and this has been really intrinsic to my journey, particularly over the last 10 years is that self-reflection.

Simon Peterson: 28:18

Danielle, the big, the big, less than there. I'm going to summarize that that's just take a step back and breathe. And it's interesting in my career I've seen leaders tell me I need to fire salespeople, I need to get rid of people, and they're panicking and it's, all you know, frightfully frenetic and I think it doesn't need to be and I love that advice. I think it's, you know, I think, for everybody that's listening. When you're stressed out, you're running around. I remember my first quarter end. It was awful, and one of the things that I've learned along the way is just breathe, and you know sales has a lot of ups and downs. Remember there are going to be some downs, for every time you have an up, and that's just normal and just take a step back and breathe, and I think that's wonderful, wonderful advice.

Simon Peterson: 29:08

Danielle, thank you so much for appearing on the podcast today. It was awesome to have you and I know you know it's been incredible to reconnect after all this time. I wish you absolutely the very best of luck with what you're up to. It sounds incredibly exciting critical thinking, some great thought of thought, leadership and a wonderful career you've had so far. Can't wait to see what you do next. Thank you so much, danielle.

Danielle Pearson: 29:35

Thanks, support. Thank you, sonny. You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you.