082: The Power of Learning From Your Previous Birth Experiences (with Pamela Morzella)

When you’re walking into a hospital for your first birth, and don’t realize the preparations you needed to make as you’re attempting a natural birth, things can spiral quickly. But you don’t know what you don’t know. Then, as you’re preparing yourself for a repeat experience, because at least now you know what to expect, all is going well until well…it’s not, and suddenly your entire experience is tainted to the point where you don’t even want to hold your own baby. Years go by and you're convinced you're having children, never wanting to go through any of it again, until one day God tugs on your heart, because He has an entirely different experience waiting for you that He knows will strengthen your relationship with Him, and bring Him all the glory. Prepare your heart’s as Pamela shares her three birth stories today, and the powerful lessons God taught her through each of them. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I kind of like burst into fear and I'm like, and I asked the minimum wife, I was like, should I be scared right now? And she's like, well, I would. If I'm getting, you know, she's like, if I'm getting one centimeter dilated and my preterm labor test came out um positive, yeah, I'd be, I'd be scared right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

What? Hi, I'm Kayla Heater, follower of Jesus, wife and mother of five children, Christian childbirth educator in doula, and your host of the Surrendered Birth Stories podcast, where we share God-centered birth stories, evidence-based birth education, and our pursuit of surrendering our birth plans to God. Let's get started. Happy St. Patrick's Day and happy birthday to my best friend Taylor. It's her birthday, St. Patrick's Day, and my son pointed out to me that it's very ironic that her husband is named Patrick. And I literally have never thought about that in our 18 years of friendship. So happy birthday, Taylor. Um, we had a great trip last weekend. Girls get away. It was so much fun. It was like almost exactly 48 hours, and it was just the best. It was great. I highly recommend if that's your thing. And you love talking with your girlfriends, just getting away for a couple of days and talking. We talked so much that my voice got a little hoarse. And I'm pretty sure the only moments of silence were when we were asleep or when one of us was in the bathroom. And that was about it. So it was it was a great, it was a great weekend. Um, but it was good to get back to my family and spend the week with my family. I got to see a lot of friends this week. It was wonderful, happy for our beautiful spring weather still, which is so awesome. We just love the spring. And Taylor loves the spring because it's her birthday, I think. But it's kind of like I love the fall because that's when my birthday is. But, anyways, I just hope everyone is having a great week. I really don't have anything else to report. So I'm just gonna go straight into this week's episode. When you're walking into a hospital for your first birth and don't realize the preparations you needed to make as you're attempting a natural birth, things can spiral quickly. But you don't know what you don't know. Then, as you're preparing yourself for a repeat experience, because at least now you know what to expect, all is going well until it's not. And suddenly your entire experience is tainted to the point where you don't even want to hold your own baby. Years go by and you're convinced you're finished having children, never wanting to go through any of it again until one day God tugs on your heart because he has an entirely different experience waiting for you that he knows will strengthen your relationship with him and bring him all the glory. Prepare your hearts as Pamela shares her three birth stories today and the powerful lessons God taught her through each of them. Welcome to another episode of Surrendered Earth Stories. I am your host, Kayla Heater, and I have Miss Pamela with me today. And I'm so excited because I know Pamela, and I had the honor of being with Pamela in her third birth. And we're gonna get into all of that today. But before we do, Pamela, take a minute, introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you and your family and your life.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

Yeah, so my name is Pamela Morzella, and I have three kiddos. And my husband and I, we met online. Um, I am technically I'm from California, born and raised there, and my husband, David, is from Raleigh area. He's well, he was actually born in Florida and then he moved up here, but we met when he was living in North Carolina. So then we got married um in California, and then I moved out here to be with him for his job. Yeah, and then we decided um pretty soon after that to start having kids. And um, he worked and I didn't go back to work, but I decided to stay home with the kids and I majored in broadcast journalism and I minored in business, and I was raised Catholic, but that really changed a lot in college um when I got involved with like a youth group um at my church there, and I started to work for I was actually a pastor's assistant at the church that I was going to until I moved out here and and then I met you at a church here, yeah, yes, yeah. So then yeah, so we went to um Daystar, which is now definition, and um yeah, you were actually you and Taylor, one of the first people that I met here in Greensboro, and the first like community group that we went to, and so yeah, so I feel like we go way back when Brinkley was like a little baby, not even two.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I know, yes, she was uh so little. Crazy. Well, let's let's go way back, let's go way back and hear the story. So start us off with your first pregnancy. Take us back to that time when you were trying, because I know you were trying to get pregnant um with your first baby.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

Yeah, so with Lydia, so I have an anxiety disorder. I have generalized anxiety disorder and depression. And I was diagnosed um in college and it was really, really bad. I had a lot of mental, I've just I've struggled mentally a lot. So um getting pregnant was like a big deal. I tend to get really anxious and nervous about big life changes, big life events. And so um I was like nervous like about having a baby because I was on this medication. I was on my SSRIs and I was really nervous about whether or not I could get pregnant and if it was gonna affect the baby. And so we had to go and talk to doctors and make sure it was okay so that I felt comfortable. So I would say that I had a lot of like nervousness, anxiousness about getting pregnant. I was just worried about a lot of things put together, and I think that hindered me getting pregnant right away. And also I think it just took naturally, it just took my body a little while. So it took us about three months, um, which is not like horribly long, but um, to me, it was like every month that was going by and I was like, something's wrong with me, something's wrong with me, you know, and I was always afraid and scared. But um, when we got those two pink lines, it was like, or we just got so excited and we went for a walk in the park, and I was just I had so much excitement and jitters, I couldn't even like sit still. I had to go walk and do something. So we did that. The moment that you see that you're like, I'm no longer just me, like now there's a human, like that's gonna be in our lives. It was it's a crazy, amazing feeling just knowing that you know, that that's God's plan for you, you know, that he's putting this baby in your life and you don't know what they're gonna look like or anything. But um, I always wanted her to have uh David's eyes. I just was like, I hope she has your eyes. And it's funny because so far she's the only one in the family that does have his eyes, and I prayed for that. So I'm kind of laughing. I'm like, got us a sense of humor. So she has she has his eyes, and she's a lot more like his side. Um, but yeah, so the pregnancy was really awful the first three months. I was very sick, um, very, very nauseous, and just feeling horrible all the time. And we lived in a tiny little apartment, and um, I just remember it was summertime and I didn't want to get up. I didn't get out of bed. I was literally in my bed for days, just feeling horrible. And um, only certain foods I could tolerate, things like that. And um, but as you know, obviously once you get past first trimester, then I was okay. But the weirdest thing about my pregnancy though is I am not a sugar person. I do not, like, granted, I like cupcakes and stuff, but I don't eat like straight up sugar. Like, I'm not a sugar person. And when I was 17 weeks pregnant, I craved a bag of gummy worms. Like, that's all that I wanted was gummy worms. And David was like, This is the strangest thing. But he literally got me, and I was afraid because normally when I eat straight up sugar, I get a terrible migraine. But no, I ate this like half the bag of gummy worms, and it was like my body was like, Okay, you're done. Like, that's all you needed. And I had no headache, nothing. It was like I just needed that sugar. So to this day, that's weird because it never happened in my other two pregnancies, but that's always always remember that. And she is a very sweet tooth. This girl loves sugar. So, um, so yeah, that was um the first, I guess, first half, and then it just carried on and it was pretty easy after that, honestly. Like I didn't really have it, it was kind of an uneventful pregnancy. It was normal, everything was normal. She was healthy, she was great. Who were you seeing for your care? Yeah, I was um hospital and obje. Um, and I, I mean, going into this, like I had no idea like what was gonna happen. It was all kind of like whatever they tell me, that's what's gonna happen, you know, and I just believed every word they said and I just went with it and I knew nothing. And but what's interesting is my mom, she gave birth to me naturally. And so because of that, I was inspired and I wanted to give birth naturally. That was just my goal going into it. And I always said to myself, I'm gonna just do it naturally with all my kids. And so that was my goal. And I took some of the classes that they offered at the hospital, but I don't think it was like Lamas or anything like that. It was just kind of like preparing you for, you know, your baby's gonna cry and this is what we're gonna do when they, you know, we're gonna give them this shot and this shot and we're gonna do this, and that just kind of telling you the procedures. And you just kind of go with it. I just went with it. And me and David thought, okay, I guess this is what's happening. But then I didn't realize that going into natural birth is a huge mindset. And like going into it is like, I mean, it just, it was so no one really said anything, you know, like no doctors, and I didn't have a single doctor there ask me, like, what is your birth plan? What would you like your birth to look like? Let's talk about that. Let's set you up. Oh, you want natural birth? Okay, well, here's someone that you can talk to and go to a class. Or, you know, there was just nothing. Like you just, they don't even ask you. It's like they don't care what you want, they're gonna just do what they want to do. So that's just what it seemed like when I first went in. And I didn't know any different. So I was just like, okay. Um, and so you know, I went into labor, I was um at Hobby Lobby, and I Yay! Yay, Hobby Lobby. I love that store. Yes, I was we had just moved, and so we were in a house finally, and I was like, Oh, you were decorating. Yes, I was nesting and decorating, and it was my due date, and I was like in the store, and I'll never forget the clerk was like, She's like, Oh, wow, when are you due? And I was like, today, actually. She's like, What are you doing here? Go home. I was like, Well, I mean, it could be another while, like, I don't really know. And sure enough, that night it was like at three in the morning of the next day that I started to feel like crampy and it was just starting. And so I sat in the bath and tried to like calm myself, and then it got really painful. And I went and I went into the hospital and I look back and I laugh at myself now because I was only one centimeter dilated, and I was like, but it hurts so much. And I'm looking back and I'm like, that was nothing compared to what you did now, right? But yeah, looking back, it was it was like really painful, and um, but yeah, so they sent me home and then I waited a little longer and then I went back and it was like one in the morning at this point, and I was forcing it. Like one in the morning the next night. Um, yes, yes, sorry. So yes, so it was three in the morning when I started to feel it. I went through a whole day of just you know walking around, but feeling contractions that were not painful, just kind of there. And then it was like one in the morning that following night on the back the second time. Yes, yeah, on yes, and then I was like, okay, so it was over a gradual, like I don't know, 48 hours. Like she took a while to come.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

So you were in like early labor. Yes, which to you I'm sure didn't feel like early labor, but it was early labor and lasted a while.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yes, it was definitely lasting a while. And I was like, because I remember I was able to go to stores, like I think we went to an antique shop the next morning and I was okay, but then it was like towards the end of the night and I was feeling miserable. That's what it was. It was towards that's what it was. Okay, so towards the end of the next day of my due date, it was like nighttime came, and that's when we went at like nine o'clock. And then they said no go home. So I went home and then it was around three in the morning of her birthday that I was like, okay, it's intense. So I went back and it was four centimeters. And then um, I remember they were putting me on, you know, the bed and pull, you know, putting me into the room. And and I remember telling I had I had a horrible, a horrible nurse that was like there for me. Luckily, she was only there for like the end of her shift and she switched, but she was, I'll never forget how horrible. Like David could not believe the stuff she was saying to me because I said, I remember through my contractions, I was like, I want to do this naturally, I want to do this naturally. And my mom was there too. It was my mom and David, and I was like, please let me do this naturally. And she was like, I don't know, like, did you take a class? Do you even know how to do that? And I was like, No, I didn't take a class, but I was like, I really, you know, I just thought that they would naturally like work with you, like be like, okay, okay, that's what we want to do, okay. You know, and like I thought they would just help you, you know. And I didn't realize that it was a, you know, a big thing. And so she was just like, Well, if you didn't take a class and you don't know how to do this, you're not gonna be able to do that. And she was just really discouraging. And I was like, you know, she's like the that's what she said. She's like, You think the pain's bad now? It's only gonna get worse. And I was like, you know, screaming in pain, and she was like, Yeah, it's only gonna get worse, and I don't think you're gonna be able to handle that. And I was just really discouraged. So I started crying. I just remember crying and crying, and then her shift was up, and so she left. And I got a new person in there, and she was wonderful. She was a lot nicer, but she still was like, if I were you, honey, I would get the epidural. You know, she's like, that way you can just you can sleep through the contractions, you don't have to do anything, and you know, you don't have to do any work really. And she just kind of talked me into it. And of course I'm miserable and I've got everyone staring at me. And I just felt pressured, and so I feel like I just kind of was like, fine, fine, I'll just do that because I don't know what else to do. Yeah. So then I had the epidural, and then they were like, I heard the nurses talking about pumping me with pitocin, but no one said to me what that was. No one talked to me about it. Um, and I just felt like, I don't know, I just I felt like this was supposed to be like this connection between like, you know, like something I had prayed about, something that I had dreamed about, something that I had told David several times when I was pregnant that this is what I wanted to do. And so him and I knew this plan, but no one really informed me that I was supposed to like tell them because I never asked. So I just assume you tell them when you're there, you know, you go in the hospital and you just say they ask you, okay, do you want to you want the medicine? No. Oh, okay, you want to do this naturally? Okay, let's help you through that. Like I just thought it was just as simple as that. I didn't realize, you know, their mindset and all that. And so I think I just went into it completely blind and it just and it it ate at me. Like after I gave birth to her, I felt like I didn't play, I felt so disconnected. I felt like I didn't play a part in her birth. I didn't feel really proud of myself. I kind of felt in a daze. Um, I was just kind of tired. You know, it was just granted, yeah, I slept through the contractions. I was on the epidural and I was in labor for quite some time before I, I mean, it took me forever to dilate. And then by the time that I did, no one was really there. It was just like the nurse or the OB came in basically when she was coming out. And it was just like, you know, just like nothing really personal, nothing really like, I don't know, it just wasn't a great a super great experience. Did they put you on the Pitocin? They did, yeah. So the the nurses were talking about it and then they put me on it and they didn't say they didn't ask you, do you want this?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Or hey, this is what we're doing, and this is why you might need it. And here are the risks and here are the benefits. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Yeah. Like they didn't talk me through it, and so I just sort of felt like blindsided because I read about it later and I was like, Well, gee, I didn't know that. Um, you know, and right when they took her out, I remember she came out and she wasn't really crying right away, but they, you know, kind of kicked her foot or, you know, did like flicked her foot a little bit. Yeah, and then she started to cry. And um, she was my little seven-pounder, seven pounds, five ounces. She was little, and they um they started pricking her foot and then put like the blood on, you know, to get the testing, and then they were pricking her this way and putting stuff on her, and take they took her from me and put her on the skin, you know, it's just like it was just all like boom, boom, boom. And I just told David to like be with her the whole time because I'm out of it. And so he just kind of was there, but him and I just didn't know. We just didn't know. Like my whole family is nurses, and so I had my my grandmother, my aunt, my great aunt, everyone in my family is nurses, and so they're all very pro-vaccine, pro, you know, pro do everything the hospital says, you know, it's very much like that. So um just growing up in that, it was very much like, okay, do what they say. But it was like after I gave birth to her, I just had this feel, this feeling that something was wrong, you know, like I just didn't feel connected, like it wasn't what the Lord had planned for me and her birth. And I felt disappointed in myself because I couldn't do it naturally. Like I felt like I failed, like it was a big failure sort of feeling. And I was like ashamed of like how the whole thing went. And I couldn't figure out why, because I was like, you know, like I tried, it just didn't work. But I guess I was so discouraged. Like, there was no one encouraging me, you know, there was no one sitting there saying, like, you can do this, like you are fine, like we will get you through this, you know. Yeah, it would have been great if you took a class, but hey, we're gonna help you through this. And I just wish that I had gotten more support the first time around, and you know, but I think that was probably the worst of her birth. I think Logan's was worse. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Oh well, I mean, all those, I mean, those are lies. Those are lies. Lies of the enemy telling you those things, the shame and and the failure feeling and all of that. God can take any situation and use it, right? Use it for good and use it for betterment and strength and and learn from and build upon. But the enemy can also do the opposite, take any situation and and twist it around and make it you know, worse than than it actually is, or just like simply not the truth. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So how did all of that that experience affect your postpartum?

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Oh, it played a part. Yeah. I had the worst postpartum with Lydia. And it was also February, it was a bit like winter time and Lydia was very colic. She screamed nonstop. If she was awake, she was screaming. It just was awful. And she had that reflex, like everything that and then she had an ear infection at two months old. It was, she was so young. She had all kinds of issues with her ear. She has um, she was born with hearing loss in her left ear. So um in the hospital, they tested her, but everyone was getting a negative test in the left ear. So they had all the babies that were there that day get retested because they were giving false negatives. And so we took her in and she just happened to be the baby that actually did have hearing loss in her left ear. So we just thought, what are the odds? But so that poor thing. And then she had a tongue tie, so she had to get her tongue clipped because she wasn't nursing very well. My milk supply was not coming, well, it it did. My body did produce milk really well. I just didn't know what I was doing, and it wasn't, she wasn't getting milk. She was losing weight by the day, and so it was just like, no, I didn't really have anybody to help me with lack, like the lactation stuff. And so I did hire somebody that to help me because I was very determined. I was like, my birth didn't go the way I want. I'm definitely gonna do something I have control over, which is nursing. And so I pumped myself with lactation bars and like just I really I went from like literally, I had barely an ounce, like, and she was two weeks old and I was barely getting an ounce out, and I was terrified, and we just had to supplement until finally, like, I was nursing around the clock, or not nursing, I was pumping around the clock, and I was up every hour at night. I mean, I remember being so tired that I was physically like nauseous and my head was pounding all the time because I wasn't sleeping, but I was so desperate to do it, so I just kept going to feed her, and I think a lot of that, so with like the lack of sleep, the the whole birth, I mean, it was just I was not prepared. I was not prepared for this at all. And I remember crying and telling David, like, I don't want to be a mom, I don't want to do this anymore, like I don't ever want another child. Like, I just it was the worst feeling ever. And I just I couldn't understand it because I was like, everybody makes you know, makes it look so easy and look so great, but yet why am I feeling so defeated? And um, so yeah, it was a lot of a lot of prayer. I went to go see the pastor, and I just had to like sort of figure out how to get my head straight because I was in a really dark place and it was just really depressing. And I think by the time she turned four months old was the time that I took a breath of fresh air and I got up and I was like, I think I can do this because she was sleeping better, she was older, and we were starting to see smiles, and it just kind of gave us that hope. And so yeah, my postpartum with her was really, really, really bad.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I'm so sorry. Yeah, and um unfortunately, I wish I could say that like you were the exception for that, but that is so incredibly common, unfortunately, just with the the lack of knowledge and therefore preparation and support surrounding that time of of earth and postpartum. For sure. So then how do things go the second time then? When did you decide then that you wanted to have another baby since since you said you didn't? But yeah, what what changed? When did it change? How did that go?

SPEAKER_04 23:32

Yeah, so when Lydia was as she got older, like we knew we wanted another one. I always knew that I wanted another one. And I just knew that like when I was discouraged with Lydia, that was like just in that time frame, that phase of my life. But once we kind of got a hold on things and she was older, I it was like after a year, I said to David, I said, you know, once she decides to stop nursing is when we can talk about because I didn't want to be nursing and pregnant at the same time if I was gonna be as sick as I was. So I was like, let me just have when she's done nursing, then I will. And so I waited for her to wean herself and I never pushed it or anything. It was just sort of like, whenever you're done, and one night she was 19 months old, and we were putting her to bed. And normally her routine is she would like pick up the boppy pillow and she would bring it to me and like put it on my lap and climb up. And this one night, she just looked at her book and she climbed in her crib and she was like, Bye night, mommy. And I was like, David's like, should we get the boppy? I was like, no. Like, I think she's done. And so it was like the next day I offered it to her and she was really done. She was like, she's like, no, no, no, no, mommy. I was like, okay. Um, so she was done, and I was like, okay, I think this is time that we start talking about it. And it was like, it took us no time at all. It was literally like one time, and that was it. It was like literally like the moment we tried, she I we were pregnant again. So the next time it happened really quickly. And my anxiety was not bad. It was really good, and I didn't feel like the fear that I had before. Like I went into that pregnancy feeling so good, and I wasn't nauseous with him at all. Like, what? Really? Yeah, with Logan, I was not really nauseous at all. I was just, it was like the evenings. I remember the whole day I'd forget that I was pregnant. I kept telling David, I was like, I gotta put a sign up because I keep forgetting I'm pregnant. Like I feel I just don't feel anything. That would be so cool. Yeah, it was the only one time that that ever happened, and he was a boy. So I just thought maybe it was her being a girl or something, but it was the one time that I remember it was like in the evenings I would feel a little bit tired, yeah. Yeah, but then like the next morning, nope, I was fine. And I remember that pregnancy was such a breeze. I was like, oh, this is so great. So yeah, his pregnancy was great. And I I mean, there's really not much to say about his pregnancy because it was just a breeze and no problems there at all.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Well, did you decide to do anything differently with the second one, like in terms of birth planning or birth prep or care provider or birth location or anything like that, knowing that you were disappointed in in the first experience?

SPEAKER_04 26:25

Yeah, so that's where I kind of kick myself sometimes because even though I think like after it had been by the time I got to Logan, it had been two years. And I just kind of like, I don't know, like I didn't fully forget everything, but I feel like a lot of it just sort of, I was like, that's just how it is. Like I just kind of accepted it, I guess, in a way of knowing like this is just, you know, this is how they do it in the hospital. This they must do it for a reason. I just have to deal with it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Like this is birth in America, and this is what everyone's experience is and what my experience will be.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Yes, exactly. And everyone I had talked to, I hadn't gotten any different perspective with the group of people I was around. I hadn't heard any others different stories. I heard people saying, Yeah, that happened to me too. And it was just that's all that I would hear. And so I started to just be like, this is the way that it is, and you really can't speak up against anything. Like you just have to go with it. And so this time I knew, like, I knew there were certain things I didn't really want to happen, but it was like something just said, like, I just kind of felt going into this one is like, well, I know more of what I'm doing now. So I'm more confident going into this. And 'cause you know what to expect. Because I know what to expect, exactly. And so I'm like, if this does happen the same way with Lydia, I'm prepared for it now because I know.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

And plus, like the pregnancy was easier. I didn't have the depression like I did, like I was in a better place, headspace. And so I kept feeling like, okay, I'm gonna go back into this battle and I'm gonna be okay. Like it just never even dawned on me that, oh, there's another way, like there's something else. I just thought, like, oh, I could do this. But I will say through the pregnancy, yes, it was easy. But I will say there was a family issue that happened. Um, so I'm not sure, I'll try to make it short, but basically a family member of ours had several miscarriages, like many miscarriages. And apparently, one of the children that she had had, the furthest one along, she had named that child the same name that we were planning to name our child without knowing about it. So she was gonna so Logan was gonna be named Dawson. That was his name because it means son of David, and I liked it because you know, David's my husband, and it just kind of flowed. And so we were gonna name him Dawson, and we announced it to the family like the moment we found out that we were having a boy. And I put it in the group text, I had mentioned it, and we had gotten together for like, you know, events and stuff like that, and I never heard from this person that it was like an issue, but it was literally like a month before I'm due, and she drops this bomb on his dad, and we don't even find out until the grape find that she has a problem with the name and saying, like, we did it on purpose and we're trying to hurt her, and like I had no idea, and she swore that she told me, and I'm like, I wouldn't have even thought about this. If I like, I just was so confused as to like what was happening, and I also just felt blindsided and frustrated because this is supposed to be my happy moment, you know. I'm supposed to be giving birth to a baby boy in a month, and now the name that I've had picked out that we've been calling him for the last six months is now pulled out from underneath us, and Lydia was walking around saying, My baby brother Dawson, like, you know, everybody knew it was gonna be Dawson. He had a quilt made with his name on it. I mean, it was already like set in stone, and we had told her this. So that's kind of what brought me into a bad place. So I got into a really bad place towards the very, very end. And this is literally like right before I give birth, which is also another reason I should mention why I didn't really focus on how I was gonna give birth and how I was gonna do it differently, because I was very, very just very anxious, very depressed, very frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Caught up in the fact that you felt obligated to change your son's name last minute.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Yes, even though we had mentioned this, and I just felt like it wasn't our fault. And then we had his parents were breathing down our necks to change the name every single day. We would get, and then David was getting, you know, she would call him and curse at him and like say horror. Yeah, it got really nasty, and not to mention on his side of the family, but then I had my own problem with my own mother on my side of the family. And her, it's hard to explain our issue, but her and I were not seeing eye to eye on some things, and she was not as supportive as I needed her to be, and so she was causing a lot of problems for me as well. And so I had his side and I had my side, and it I just felt like me and David just felt like, what is going on? Why are we being cursed from every angle on this? And we had no support from either side of our family, and I was literally crying. And I remember I went into labor with him um 10 days early. So he was coming early. And um, I just remember going to the hospital. We were literally in the middle of driving David's driving me to the hospital, and she calls us and starts cursing that we better change his name. Otherwise, she's like shunning us from the family, like we like just threats, all kinds of stuff as I'm in labor. Like I'm literally in labor, breathing through contractions in the car while she is yelling at us. And I just couldn't believe it. So, David, I think he just like hung up because at that point I was crying. I was just in tears, and I was like, why is nobody even worried about my child right now that I'm having a baby? I mean, this could go well or it may not go well. Like, I just don't feel like anyone's excited for us, everyone's yelling at us, and my mom she wouldn't answer my phone calls. She blocked me on her phone because she just didn't want to talk to me and she said she needed personal time. And it was like literally for two weeks during my birth and after. And so she didn't talk to me. And I needed my mom more than anything, and so I felt completely blindsided by that too. So I just had I had a lot of stuff going on. So when I went and I so then it just kind of gets worse though, because through when we get to the hospital, I am forced, I think it was five centimeters. So they they admitted me. But I think that I was so just numb to everything that was going on. I felt like my heart was just breaking. I felt like I didn't want to be giving birth at that moment. I didn't, I felt so disconnected from it's hard to explain, but I I just remember feeling like after he was born, I didn't want to hold him. I didn't want to be around the baby. I just wanted to, I remember being in the shower crying and thinking that I wanted to die. Like it was just really bad. And but I'll go back to where I was actually giving birth. So in five centimeters, and they admit me, everyone's like, Oh, it's your second baby, they'll come out, he'll come out quick, you know, all that stuff. And I was like, Okay, some hoping he'll come out quick. And but um, I was just so like I just remember being so depressed, and like I was kind of like seeing through a fog, if that makes sense. Like, I just feel like I was so in a daze of like I didn't care if I lived or died at that point. Like I was just like, whatever. So when they took me into the room and I had been pushing, I they I did the epidural again. Um, and then I don't know, I don't think they did Pitocin because I was far along, but like they did the epidural and I just remember pushing and pushing and he wasn't coming. And I remember thinking, like, I want to keep pushing, you know, I want him to come. But after about two hours, the doctor came in and he said, It's been two hours, you haven't, you know, he hasn't come out. You want me to just suck him out? And I was like, What do you mean? And he was like, you know, like we he's like, I just did it to like four other moms, so he's like, You want me to suck him out with a vacuum? And I was like, and I was such in a daze, and I was like, um, yeah, sure. And he comes over and he gives David papers to sign. And he gives me the papers to sign. I don't read any of it. David doesn't read any of it. We just sign the papers because, you know, we trust him. And he said that he's done it to three other babies just a second ago. So he's like, you know, just pop him right out. You won't have to push anymore, he'll be here, we can move on. Like he just he was kind of like acting like he was ready to get home and have dinner, you know, like he just didn't really seem concerned about anything. And he made it sound so simple and easy that it was no big deal. And I just thought, granted, in in the state of mind that I was in, I was like, okay, sure. So I just had two little pushes and he took him out. And David said that he will never forget how horrifying it was to watch that, just to see like Logan's head shape completely change and just to pull him out like that. He said that was mortifying. He's like, I thought that he was killing our child. He said that was like the most horrifying thing he's ever seen. And when he said that to me, I was like, I can't believe.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

And so for people who don't know what you're talking about, um, let me just explain real quick. So, because I don't want someone to have this vision in their head that isn't accurate if they don't know what a vacuum is. So um sometimes there are things called assisted deliveries, where it's like the baby is going to come out vaginally and the mom is still pushing the baby out vaginally, but there's some assistance from the OBGYN. Midwives can't do assisted deliveries, it has to be an OB. So a few ways are one is through like an epesiotomy where they'll cut you to make the opening wider, which is almost almost never necessary and always super painful in prolonged ceiling. Um, next is forceps, but they there are some hospitals that won't use forceps anymore, which are almost like tongs, like kitchen tongs, um, to pull the baby out that way. But there's a lot of bruising and sometimes like limb damage and stuff like that that happens. So some hospitals don't use that. It's more outdated, but there are still some um physicians who will do it. And then what you're what happened to Logan was something called a vacuum. And what it is is there's like a little suction cup that um goes on the top of the baby's head and they pump it full of pressure. So it's like a sponge-looking thing, and then there's like plastic around it, and they um they attach it to the baby's head like a suction cup and pump this pressure. They sort of like pumping it almost like a like pumping air into a tire or something, and they pull back and pull back and pull back, and then at the same time that the mom pushes, the doctor pulls because now they're like suctioning and pulling it out, and it usually helps the baby get under the pubic bone, which is usually where the baby is stuck, but usually only because the mom is having to push on her back, and usually she's pushing on her back because she has an epidural. So this isn't something that happens in like a water birth or like when a mom is standing up, pushing, or anything like that. It's usually just the on your back epidural pushing that would require a vacuum. But yes, there are, I mean, I don't know if you're gonna go into this, but there are side effects of that. I mean, there's definitely, you know, head different head molding, bruising. Um, sometimes the baby can get a hematoma, they'll definitely have a headache after the fact. Sometimes there's like scarring that will eventually go away, but there's just like abrasions and stuff that can happen. And you can only use a vacuum if it pops off, like if they try and pull and the vacuum pops off and like the baby doesn't come out, they can try one more time to do it. But if it pops off a second time, it's an automatic C-section. So that's another thing when you sign that paper that you didn't read, which who would in that moment, um, you're agreeing to get a C-section if the vacuum comes off twice. So, and they literally will push your baby's head back up inside you and go cut them out. Yes, just about that. Yeah. If you literally cannot get your baby out, like you absolutely feel like you cannot do this because you know, abdural on the back and everything, then getting them out vaginally with a vacuum is definitely the better alternative to a C-section. Like, you know what I mean? Like between the two choices. If those are your only two choices, a vacuum is better than a C-section. Obviously, we want to avoid those things if we can, but it's like the it's like the lesser of two evils, you know. Right. Right. But it does not take away from the fact that it is definitely traumatic for baby and parents.

SPEAKER_04 39:29

Yes. And that is a hundred percent. This is where like again, like I created my own like guilt and stuff like that afterwards because I felt like, okay, I wasn't doing what I should have done for my kid at the same time. Like I was in such a dark place. I it was once again, I'm trusting, like, this is just what you do. You just trust the doctors because the first time around, I was like, I didn't like it, but this is what it has to be. You know, there's no other way to do it. And my mom and um my aunt, who was a nurse, she's like, You have to have the baby in the hospital. You can't do it any other way. Like it was just, I was told that by my family. So I just trusted, and and they always said, trust whatever they say, trust whatever they do. Because you know, like they always would say, like, oh, because my grandmother, she had a stillbirth. And so they scared me with that a lot. Like, you know, if you don't listen to the doctors, then this could happen, or your baby could die, or like your baby would swallow the poop and not breathe, or whatever, or they're wrapped around the cord. Like, so if they're telling you to do something, you need to listen. And like that's just how I was raised with all these nurses. And so my brain literally did not know any other way. And so when they said like to vacuum out, I was like, okay, I gotta listen to what you say, you know. So after he came out and everything, you know, luckily he was okay. And luckily we made it through. I tore pretty bad, um, as you can imagine, from him just coming out so quickly when he wasn't ready. And um, oh, that was another thing I should say about Lydia's birth is they pulled my placenta out rather than me delivering it. That's what happened first. Yeah, I remember she pulled it out and I bled a lot. And then with Logan, I don't remember exactly what happened, but I remember he came out and I was terrified because right after he suctioned him out, the doctor was like trying to, you know, flick his heel and try to get him to to like breathe, and he was purple and his mouth was just closed shut and his eyes were closed shut. And I remember that he um clicked that button to call like the NICU, like all these nurses came rushing in. They had like a siren noise going, and I thought I thought I had just I thought he died or something. Like I had no idea, and I'm laying there and I'm screaming at the nurse, and I'm like, what's happening? Because they just take him and they bring him to the table over there and start putting it.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

They cut the cord and took him away.

SPEAKER_04 41:52

Yeah, yeah. They cut the cord and just took him and brought him over to the little like table, and then they put him on an oxygen mask and everything. I mean, they were like acting like they were trying to get him back to life or something. And so I was like, we had like to this day, I have no idea like what the heck happened. And I asked the nurse, like, what's going on? And she's like, Don't worry, he's breathing. They're just trying to give him oxygen. And I'm like, Well, if he's breathing, why are they giving him oxygen? And I just was terrified. It was like a whole two minutes, and it scared me half to death because I thought that something was seriously wrong. And the doctor, he took off his hat, you know how like when they do that. So I mean, he like he had a look of horror on his face, and he took his hat off. And I remember him standing there, he looked so nervous, he wouldn't even stitch me up or deal with me. He was just staring over at the people that were dealing with Slogan. And um, in that same moment, I guess after they finally figured things out, it was after a good little while, it seemed, then they finally gave him to me and said he was okay and he's breathing just fine. And so I just took a deep breath and I was like, praise God, he's okay. And I was just terrified and I didn't know what was going on. But then yeah, they sewed me up, told me I tore stage three, and um, and then they asked me what his name was, and I remember I just burst into tears and I said, I don't even know. And like it was just like I was like, I don't even know. And uh even though when I looked at him, all I could see was the name we had picked, you know, like that's all I wanted to call him, but I felt like I wasn't allowed to, and so I just remember crying and I couldn't look at him, and um, just thinking about it like breaks my heart because I remember that. So they wrapped him in a swaddle and like he didn't really stay on me for very long. I don't really remember, I know I nursed him in the hospital, but I just remember after I would nurse him, I would say, David, can you take him? Like I just didn't want to hold him, I didn't want, and I don't know. It was just it was just like I it was too painful to see him. Like it was it, like it was this feeling of just like I can't, I'm just so depressed and I'm so upset and I feel so miserable that I don't even know what to to do. Like I don't know how to be a mom to you. Like it was just this odd feeling. Um, but then what's really cool about his story though, I will say, is that um after this, like my brain was just like, you know, so depressed, and I was so miserable. I will say that when we were leaving, we put him in the car seat. They were the hospital was demanding that we had a name for him. Like they were just demanding and demanding. And um I was just like, you know, I just told them, like, I don't know, I don't know. And David's like, well, I'm just gonna put the name that we had picked on here. We're just gonna put his name down and we'll go from there. And I was like, well, I said I can't use that name now because every time I think about it, I think of your sister yelling at me, you know, or I think of all the horrible things that were said to us. Like, I can't even use the name anymore. It's not our name. Been tainted, yeah. Yeah, like it's been dragged through the mud, like I don't want it. So then I but I was like, we don't have a backup, we never had a backup. So then it was really, really cool because I will say that when we were walking out, I was thinking of a name. David and I were both thinking of a name, and hypothetically, and we had mentioned Logan before, like it had come up when we were deciding names, but we just decided we liked Dawson better at the time or whatever. I think for whatever reason we we liked that one. But we did talk about Logan, but it wasn't like it was so random. I don't remember when it was. Oh, I think it was his friend, David's high school friend, he's still friends with him. He had mentioned, what about the name Logan? You know, he was just kind of joking around, like, oh, you should do Logan. And David's like, oh, you know, we already picked a name. But when we were in the hospital, that name came back to me. And I remember, so backstory is that me and David, when we first met, we went on this hike in Montana, and there's a place called Logan Pass, and it's like up in the Glacier National Park, and it was the most beautiful hike. I remember getting to the top, and I never wanted to leave because it was so beautiful, and um, you could just see like I mean, these mountains are just glorious mountains. And so when he when I was thinking of the name Logan, I was thinking about Logan Pass, and I thought, like, I really like the connection between that because it was such a beautiful hike, and I wanted to be there so badly in my state of mind, in my misery. I was just like, I want to be there so bad in just this beautiful place with my baby, and I just wanted to go that happy place because my mind was not there. And so, as we're pushing him, David went to go get the car, and I was pushing the stroller with Logan in the car seat. We were about to put him in the car, and I remember walking through the hospital, and there was this window, and this light just shined down like right on us, and like the warmth of the sun, and it was just hitting the angle of Logan just so beautifully. And I remember I looked at him and I said, Your name's Logan. Like, and I felt it in my heart, like God was telling me, like, your child's name is Logan, and you need to name him that. And it was such a strong, overwhelming feeling that I got in the car and I said, David, his name's Logan. And he was like, Whoa, where where did you get that? And I was like, I can't explain it, but his name is Logan, and the Lord wants us to name him Logan. And that day we went home, and as we got to our house, there was literally a rainbow over our house, like right over our house. Like I had never seen a rainbow specifically, and I still have a picture of it to this day, but it was specifically over like from the front of our house, the back of our house. And we got home and I was like, I think this is a sign. And it was just like everything kind of looked up from there, and um eventually we kind of made it like it took a few, it took several months to make amends with family members, but yeah, I bet yeah, I was gonna ask, like, are we still speaking to any of these family members today? Yeah, so I was, and this is where God tested me on forgiveness because I my whole life I have never been one to like forgive. My mom was not very good at forgiving, she was very good at you know, you wronged me once, you're out of my life. Like, it was very much like that growing up. She would do that, and I would watch her do that. And so now that I had been married to David and I had learned a lot through my life, I was like, I really need to work on forgiveness. And so she's also a Christian, and so like slowly but surely, like we both the woman cursing her brother out was also a Christian.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Yes. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_04 48:44

So she apparently was going through something, and well, lots of miscarriages, she's hurting, she's in a lot of pain. She had a lot of a lot of pain going through that. And I mean, apparently, from what I had heard, she like had her baby in the hospital when she had the miscarriage, and she brought it home in a shoebox and buried in the backyard. Yeah, like it was very traumatic. Like she just had a very traumatic experience. And so I tried to like try to feel from where she's coming from, and to know that like her words were out of sadness and anger and frustration, and that's not the person that she is, and it was just a really bad misunderstanding.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Well, because if you think about it, it could have been taken a whole nother way. It could have been seen as like this honor. Like a lot of people like to honor people, you know, who've passed away by naming their child after the person who passed away. But I guess, you know, that was it was probably too raw and too fresh.

SPEAKER_04 49:46

Yeah, that's what actually that was what we kept thinking too. I was like, well, now that we know, like, isn't it cool that like this new baby boy is being brought to life with that name? Like, we thought it would be kind of nice. And I mean, that's actually where I got my name because my my mom's moms, my grandma gave birth to a stillbirth, like I had mentioned, and her name was gonna be Pamela. Her name was Pamela Jo. And so my mom named me Pamela after her sister that she never got to meet, and so that was something that my mom mentioned. She's like, Well, this should be something that's beautiful, not taken so wrong. But yeah, I have no idea what was going on, and we definitely felt very hurt by it. And I mean, I think she thought she was the victim the whole time, and that's really hard to sort of talk out with somebody to be like, I mean, she never apologized for any of it, and of course, I didn't feel the need to apologize. We kind of both just sort of didn't talk for six months after the baby was born, and I I was I I was so angry. I was like, She will never meet my son, she will never hold my son. Like, I was so angry, and I had all this anger and bitterness inside, but then I think after we hadn't spoken for a good six months, there was sort of like signs of like amends. Like she her, she has two girls, and so her they were growing out of their clothes, and she made a huge bag to give to Lydia so that Lydia would have hand-me-down clothes, and so she would kind of like a peace offering kind of thing, and she would like send us invitations to her kids' birthday parties, like she was sort of like coming around slowly without really like let's put this behind us and not mention it kind of thing. And I had to just I prayed along and hard about it, and I just we just decided to move past it and just pray that the Lord had worked on her heart, and the Lord definitely worked on me to forgive because I'm not one to, I mean, if it were up to me, I wouldn't be speaking to her to this day, but the Lord definitely was like worked hard on me. That Jesus forgave you that's right. So you forgive her. That's right, and so I knew that I was like, I cannot do that. So eventually we did, and we the first time we saw each other, he was born in June, and we saw each other at Christmas. It was like six months later, and we saw her at Christmas, and I'll never forget that she showed up and we hugged each other and we just started talking about random things, and it was like nothing had ever happened. It was so crazy. I have a family member like that. Yeah.

unknown 52:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

We're just like, okay, well, we're just picking it up where we left off and pretend nothing happened. Okay. Um, and you know, it was like it was it was weird at first, but you know, I think eventually, like now time has really healed a lot of that, and we really are glad that we do have the name Logan. And I do feel like in some ways I'm grateful because we would have we wouldn't have had the name Logan, and I actually like it better, and it fits him really well, and you know, and now we have all L names. So Oh yeah, that's right. So it kind of worked because David's like, I kind of like that it's Lydia and Logan. I was like, Oh yeah, two L's. So we didn't actually do it on purpose. Anyways, that's his story. Um, do we have time for Lena?

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Should I go through that one quick? Do we have time? I hope we have time because I would like everybody to hear her story to hear how this beautiful ending all wraps in a bow. So that's true. It's several years later. It didn't happen, you know, 18 months later like it did between your first two. So yeah, I know a lot of couples who have two kids, a boy and a girl, or a girl and a boy, and then they're like, Okay, that's it. We did it, we're done. Yeah, but here you are several years later, having another baby. So what happened?

SPEAKER_04 53:37

Yes, yeah. So we I was definitely done. Like when I found out on the ultrasound that Logan was a boy, I said, Yes, I'm done. Like that was my words. I was so happy. I was like, Yes, I'm done. And after I had him, I was a hundred percent sure. I mean, he was, you know, one, two, three, four. And I was like, I'm still done. But that's where I remember we were at the children's museum, and for whatever reason, it was just this day I was started homeschooling. I was home homeschooling my oldest, and Logan was in preschool for a few days a week just so I could work with her. And we were at the children's museum, and I remember looking and watching them play together, and I was just like, I had this overwhelming feeling, like this huge feeling, like our family was not finished. And I was like pushing back hardcore. I was like, no, Lord, no, no, no, no, no, no. Please, please, please don't put this on my heart. Like I was like begging him to take it back because I was like, I do not, I cannot do this. I don't want to do this. After going through what I had gone through and so much of my anxiety, my meds, my family. It's just, it was too much. I was like, I'm not doing this again. And um, and so I talked to David about it that night and I told him about this huge feeling that I got. And he was like, that might be the Lord tugging at your heart. So let's pray about it. And he said, Um, how about what we can do is wait a year. And if you still feel that way by January of next year, we can talk about it. Because he knows that he's like, I just don't want you to have regrets. I don't want you to jump into it with this first gut feeling. Like he's like, let's make sure it's still there. So I was like, that's fair, let's do that. So Logan was four, I think at the time, three or four. And I was like, okay. So we waited literally, it was like every now and again throughout that whole year, I would get moments where I would look at my kids and be like, man, they would do so well with a younger sibling. And that would just hit me. And then I would get so much anxiety because I'm like, no, like I was scared of the feeling, like I was scared that I would have to do this again. And so I would push back and be like, no, no, I'm done. You know, no. And then to make myself like so much more sure, I'm like, see, I'll prove to myself that I'm done. I'm gonna get rid of all these clothes, I'm gonna get rid of all these toys. I don't need them, I don't need them anymore, you know, I'm done, you know. And I just like was like kind of proving to myself, see, you're done, you're good. Like, and then it was like January came around and it was the new year, and I just remember telling David, like right after New Year's, I was like, I was crying in my bed, and I was like, David, do you remember what you said to me last year when I had that feeling? Because I hadn't talked to him about it since that day. So he was like, Are you still getting that feeling? Are you still having that? And I was like, I still am, like I still am. And he was like, Okay, so do you want to? Like, do you want to try? And I was just like, I think I just need to because I'm always gonna regret not trying. And so he was like, Okay, and so I told him, I was like, I know I'm older, like I'm not old or too old, but I am older, so we'll see how my body responds. Like, if it's, you know, if I don't get pregnant, then that's fine. But he he and I both were praying about it together one night, and it was just like, if it's meant to happen, it will happen. And I told him, I said, I don't want to go for months trying, like I don't want it to be exhausting. Like if it happens first, second, or third try, like we'll go for it. But it wasn't something I wanted, like, if I wasn't gonna get pregnant in a year, I'm not gonna keep trying. Like, it's just we'll let it happen. So it was literally like again, with like with Logan, first try, and I got pregnant right away.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

Like it was no questions asked, and I was like, okay, Lord, clearly you had an October baby, and that was January. So it's like it had to have been like right away.

SPEAKER_04 57:18

It was very much right away, yeah. So yep, it was just instant, and I was like, wow, okay, Lord. It was it was almost like he was waiting for that moment, be like, here's my window. Let's do it. So, um, so yeah, so we got pregnant and I struggled a lot with this pregnancy. Like, that's what's funny, or not funny, but like this pregnancy was like Logan was an easy pregnancy, really difficult towards the end in the birth. With her, it was a very difficult pregnancy, but a wonderful birth. So, like I was very, very sick with her for the longest time, longer than with Lydia. I was I was actually vomiting a lot, and I couldn't really keep anything down, like it was bad with with her more than any of my other kids. And so I didn't just I don't know if it was my age or what, but my hormone levels, but it was not great with her. So I was very sick for up to about four months, and then it got better, and then it was okay, but then I had um my anxiety meds were all over the place, they weren't working as well, so I was getting really anxious all the time. I had like OCD thoughts, like I was just having, so I was having to do therapy, had to do constant therapy. Um, and I was in and out of the hospital with just a lot of panic attacks, like it was just not easy. And then towards the end, it was like physically it was hard. I had really swollen feet, really swollen calves. I was just so big.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

And you went into preterm labor.

SPEAKER_04 58:49

Oh, yes, I forgot about that. Yes, yeah. So that's right. That's right. In July, it was like I was 24 weeks, and I was at the park with the kids, and I was getting like this baby was crying, and I was getting letdowns, like my milk was letting down constantly, and I was like, that's weird. And then I was getting contractions like every two minutes, like repeatedly contractions, and they weren't painful, but they were definitely contractions, like tightening, and it was happening every two minutes. And I was like, well, maybe I just need to drink more water. So I would just be gulping down tons of water, or maybe I need to walk. Like I was just trying different positions, trying to walk differently. Everything I did, nothing mattered. It just I was getting these horrible like every two minutes. And I told David, I was like, something is just really wrong. Because I don't normally get let downs while I'm pregnant. Like, yes, I'll get leaking, but I won't get let downs. Yeah, that's abnormal. Yeah. So I was like, Well, that's weird. So, um, but yeah, the whole rest of the day it was like that. And then we were getting in the car to go home from the children's museum, and I said, David, drop me off at the hospital because the contractions were getting closer together and they were feeling a little bit stronger. And I was like, I don't know what's happening, but Are actually starting to hurt. And so he took me in and I was like told them what happened, whatever. And then I had again a horrible experience. I had this midwife who was bragging about how she just got her nails done. So they were long nails, they were not short nails. And she bragged about how she just got her nails done. She sticks her finger up there to figure out how dilated I am. And it feels like someone is shoving a knife up my cervix. Like it was, I was like, why is this person with nails going inside of me right now? But she goes up there to check and then she tells me that I'm one centimeter. And I'm like thinking, well, that doesn't really matter because I could have been one centimeter for like two months. Like it doesn't make a difference. Not a first time up. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, I could have been one centimeter my whole life. I don't know. But she was like, yeah, she was like, you're one centimeter dilated. And I'm like, okay. And then she's like, well, let's take the test to see if I forget what that test is called, but they test to see if you're in preterm labor. It's like a preterm, they look for like some sort of a mucus or cervical something to find out if you're going into labor. And they took that test and it came out positive. So they were like, well, it seems like your likelihood of going into labor is pretty strong. And I kind of like burst into fear and I'm like, and I asked the mid-wife, I was like, should I be scared right now? And she's like, well, I would. If I'm getting, you know, she's like, if I'm getting one centimeter dilated and my preterm labor test came out um positive, yeah, I'd be, I'd be scared right now. What? Yes. And this is without even seeing a doctor yet or anything. And so I'm literally in panic mode. And that's when I called you. And I was like crying, and I was like freaking out because I didn't know what was happening. And it was like all these things, like my maternity photos, and all that it's all flashing before me, and I'm not gonna be able to do it. But then um, they send me in and it just again, it was so I feel like a lot of it was unnecessary. Like they did put me on, um, they gave me two steroid shots in the butt, and that really hurt, and that was to stop the contractions. Um, and or no, no, sorry, the steroid shot was for the baby. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

For the lung development.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:05

Yes, the lung development. And then they gave me they probably gave you medication to stop your contractions. The contractions, yeah. So they did both of those things. And then once I had that done, then they put me into a different room. And then when I was there, I had like an actual doctor come to me and they were like, Oh, it's not really abnormal that you have a positive um preterm labor test. That's pretty like it doesn't really tell us much. Um, a lot of they're like, Don't worry, most moms that come in with this, we really don't know why it happens, but most of the time they go full term. So they're like, you know, and then they took a um ultrasound of my cervix and they said your cervix is very thick. So there's like, there's no progression of baby coming. Um, so they're like, I wouldn't worry. Um, and so I got a lot of reassurance, but then I was also angry because I was like, I was panicking for 24 hours before I saw this doctor and had someone tell me this earlier, I would not have been in such a panic mode. I didn't sleep all night, like I was supposed to sleep in the hospital, and I just panicked all night long, like what's gonna happen? And it was the 4th of July, and my kids, you know, I couldn't be with them. They were at a friend's house and had to stay there because I couldn't be there. And they were just like monitoring me. They wanted to monitor me and make sure that she didn't come early. But they did an ultrasound. They said, She looks great, my cervix is great, everything's great, you look fine. So then they sent me home and I my contraction stopped and I went home. And to this day, I look back and I'm like, was that necessary? I mean, I feel like all they really I know they were doing their precautions to make sure she wasn't coming, but if they had checked my cervix earlier, like if that was the first thing they did, I wouldn't have needed all the other stuff, you know? Like, I don't feel like I would have needed that because they were telling me, Oh, there's no way she she could have come because your cervix is so thick. Well, then why were you making a big deal out of these shots and all this other? I just it was frustrating. They put me through all the protocol, yeah. Like the yeah, exactly. Like making sure they cover their end. So, anyways, yeah, that was the 4th of July. And then, um, but yeah, then everything was fine after that. I mean, she stayed in, she got really big, she got too big.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

No, she didn't. She was perfect, they got really big.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:15

Um, but yeah, I kept going to so this time around, I should say, I was doing the Obi thing, but I knew I didn't want the same outcome. This time for sure, I was like, when I got when I when David and I talked about getting pregnant again, I told him I said, because now after these five years I've gone by with my kids, I had gotten to new circles of friends and knew different people at the church. I had gotten involved with a lot of different things, uh, talked to a lot of different moms, and I just got a lot of different perspectives on things I didn't know before. And one of my close friends who was actually a neighbor, we hung out all the time, and she started to get very um like holistic minded. And so she had her twins and she refused to do anything, and she explained to me why, and that's kind of what got me into all this like, oh my gosh, there is another way, like, this is amazing. And of course, I always knew that you were a doula, but it was just like I didn't really understand what that all meant and what that kind of stuff, you know, what you could do with that, and um, I also wasn't aware of what insurance would cover, and so a lot of it was like, Can I afford that? Is that something, you know, that's safe or whatever? And in my family, it's like a big fat no-no to have home births. And so this time around, I told David, I said, I don't really care if it's I mean, I want it to be at home, but I was like, if it's in the hospital or at home, I want this to be a full-on natural birth. I was like, I want what I've wanted since the beginning, and I'm gonna make sure that that happens. And if if the if like no one else would do, I was like, I'm okay with just giving birth in my bathroom over the toilet. Like, if that's what I have to do to get what I want, that's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:59

Because it was so certain to me that that's what I want. And also I hated the fact that I could never feel when I'm supposed to push. Like I never knew. Like they would just say, Okay, here comes a contraction, now push. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then I don't know, like my body should be doing. I feel like God designed my body to do these things, and if I can't feel what the Lord had given my body to do, how am I supposed to do what it's supposed to do? Like I just can't do it. Yeah, so it was me wanting just this whole new experience. I wanted my redemption birth, and um, so that's when um I switched to Wendover because I I knew a lot of people there from my group too, and also with your recommendation, I was like, Yes, I'm doing this, I'm going to do that. And so we had the midwife.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:48

You switched from an OB to a midwife.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:50

Yes, so I switched to the midwife, and that was just so much better. The first thing that she asked me when I walked in is, What do you picture your birth? And I was like, You are the first person to ever ask me that, like in an office. Like, no one has ever asked me that. So I was already really excited because she was already on board with whatever, and I came up with my birth plan, and she was like, Absolutely, we can do all this, like this is totally fine. She wasn't sure if um my kids would be able to be in the room because I really wanted them to be a part of it. I feel like I just in my mind too, like I figured they would have less resentment towards their younger sibling if they got to be a part of the process and be alongside, like they weren't being left out. And my kids both were like, they were like, Yes, like we definitely want to be there. So um, so this time around, I I will say I got everything, not well, not everything. I wanted to do it in the water, but it was not like it was necessary that it wasn't. But but yeah, so with her, it was a very quick labor. And um, I would say like it was 5 30 in the morning when I started getting contractions, all the way until 5 30 at night when she was born at 5 30. So it was literally 12 hours, the span of 12 hours on her due date, nonetheless.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

It was her due date.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:10

I was like, okay, on her due date.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

And it was the most beautiful day.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:14

Yes, it was beautiful, and we took a walk and it was so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

And you texted me at like 8 30 or 9 or something and called me. And I was at the farm, I remember I was at the farmer's market, because that's what we do on Saturday mornings, and you were like, Yep, contractions are here. I think you had had some bloody show, and you were saying, you know, they're I think by that point they were like almost five minutes apart, not quite, and ready for me to head over.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

And I was like, Yay, this is it, we're gonna do this.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:47

Yes, yes, it was exciting. I was like finally ready. My I think after having my second one be 10 days early, I was like so prepared to like this one might be just this early, or you know, you just never know at that point when you see that that's happened before. So I was like, She's either gonna be early or whatever. You never know. Third one's always a wild card, I hear. So but to be on her due date, I was like, I did not expect that. That was funny. Um, so yeah, the morning of her due date, um, I I had a well, I will say I had a lot of false alarms. Like I kept getting like one night I had um it was like a week prior, and I had like consistent contractions, but they weren't getting any more painful or going anywhere, and then they stopped. So I was like, okay. Um, but yeah, so on Saturday it was from 5 30, and I woke up in the morning and I felt a little bit of contractions and I was like, oh, you know, it's not a big deal, but I realized I couldn't sleep through them. So once I realized I couldn't sleep through them, I knew that they were a little bit stronger. So yeah, so then I called you around nine something because they were getting stronger, and then um, so then after you came, I just remember I ate a giant quiche.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

Oh well, not yet. First, I could tell we were still like in kind of early labor. We hadn't really we were we were transitioning to active labor, and so we decided to go on that walk first with David and the kids. And but it was like a hike. You had the greenway in your backyard, and we went on a beautiful October, perfect temperature, perfect sunny sky, blue sky. I just remember like we took and we took pictures. I was like, this is like the the best thing to do when you're in labor is to like go on a hike in this beautiful outdoor weather. It was I just remember being like, if I was in labor, this is what I would want to do. This is so cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:44

Yes, it was amazing. That was a brilliant idea. It really did also get me out of my head too, and like out of like the pain. It was like, oh, look at the day. And and I was like walking by my neighbor and she's like, Hey, how are you doing? I was like, Well, I think I might be in labor, so we're going home. She's like, Oh yay. Um, but yeah, so yeah, we were we walked on the hike and just kind of stopping every now and again, I would feel it and it would be pretty intense. And just the fact that I I mean, normally, like I had mentioned to you, like if I had felt those kind of contractions in the past, I'd be like, okay, it's time to go to the hospital. Like I would have instantly gone if I felt any remote amount of pain. I just didn't want to, it was just too much. But because I was so determined and I did have that mindset, um, and just a shout out to Kayla's class, the six-week class was amazing. And I feel like it mentally prepared me so much for like what to expect and like what to do. It just literally like mapped out everything. And I felt like I was so ready that it was just there was no other way. Like I saw it and I said to myself, like, there's no like pretending that there's no other way to do this. This is the only way to do this. And so once I set that in my mind, it was like, I'm doing it, and yeah, it's gonna hurt, but I don't have another option, so get through it and toughen up, you know, get your lady pants on, and you know. So um, we were walking a lot, and then I just remember, yeah, we went over the bridge, and then my um David was having some event at his work that day, and so he said, Um, I told him, I said, can you please take the kids and just go there? It was like for Halloween, some kind of thing they were doing at his work. I said, just take the kids, and he was like, you know, okay, you think that's okay? Um, because they were worried, obviously. And Lydia started crying because she didn't want to miss. She was like crying, and she's like, No, I don't want to go because the baby's gonna be here and I won't get to see it. I won't get to see you have the baby. And I promised her, I was like, I promise I will not have a baby without you. And so she it took a while to convince her, but then she was okay, and we walked back and we got there, and then my in-laws were there, and as helpful as they try to be, I was like, I really don't want you to see me in my labor self right now. I kind of just need to be like me and Kayla, just hanging out until you know it's time to go. So, anyways, and then they left, they went to this thing for about an hour, and I feel like it shifted pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:15

Well, and so I'm gonna say that that's first of all, that's when you slam the quiche, is whenever they left. Um, when it was just me and you in the kitchen. But I could tell that's when you shifted into active labor because they left and you no longer felt like you were being watched, you no longer felt like you were it was almost like sort of the pressure lifted. I could tell it was like, yes, we wanted your kids there during the birth, but it was like you needed some time to just be alone in labor, like to just be you know, primal almost. And that's when we got you. This is also, I think, what helped. We got you on the ball and we started doing like the abdominal tucks with the rebozo. And I started making you hold it, and I could tell they were getting really intense. And then I do you remember this? I explained to you the whole art of milling your own grain while you were having contractions to distract you from what from what you were feeling.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:16

I learned a lot though, and I was interested.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:19

You sure did.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:21

Yes, and I now have a mock mill.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:24

So, so you're welcome. Cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:27

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:28

Um yeah, but that's when it shifted. That's when it, that's when things got um a lot closer together and a lot more intense. And that's when I texted David and I said, Okay, it's time to head back. We're we need to, we need to go to the hospital now.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:42

I remember you, you were, I think you came back from the bathroom or something, and I was sitting on the ball. And when I realized that I was transitioning is when I started to feel like I was pushing. And you're like, Did you just push? And I was like, mm-hmm. And you're like, Okay, that's what you called because I was like starting to feel that urge, and that was new to me. Like, I was like, Whoa, I'm actually like feeling this. This is amazing, and I was just so excited. Like for this birth, it was like the first time I was actually excited, and like I knew obviously it was gonna hurt. I knew there was a lot of pain involved with this, but I wanted to feel it because I wanted to, I feel like in some ways, like with this experience and this birth, I felt the Lord's presence so much more than I had ever felt before. And it was just like, I mean, granted, yeah, you do have like the nurses around you that are talking and doing all, but like I feel like that's all such a blur because all I really felt was like this like spiritual connection because all you really have when you're in that much pain is the Lord's strength. That's like all you have at that point. Like, you cannot, I I feel like I can't do that in my own human strength. Like I look back and I'm like, there's no way. But anyway, so yes, we get to the we get to the hospital, and then uh we go up and they check me, and I'm seven centimeters, I think I was seven centimeters dilated, which was like the highest I'd ever been. So I was like, whoa, okay, that's cool. And then um they took us up to the room, they got the bath ready, and then my midwife, who was not technically on call, um that's right, was called she came in anyways, yes, she came in anyways, and I I mean I was hoping she would be there, and so it was like amazing that she was there. Um, and so yeah, so I got into the water and I was pushing and pushing, and it was interesting because I didn't even know if I was like 10 centimeters or not. Like in the past, they had told me, like, okay, you're 10 centimeters, it's time to push. But like this time, it was like I just kind of went with my whole gut instinct. I'm like, oh, my body's pushing, I guess I better push. I guess I am 10 centimeters. Like, I don't know if I am or not. But I just was in the the pool or the bath, and then of course, like, you know, my midwife and the OB are there trying to like stretch the area to kind of get things moving and make it a little easier. And I was pushing, but I remember that was that's when it hit me that this is painful. That's when it hit me. I was like, oh no, and then it was like instant, like not regret, it was just more of like, can I really do this? Like, did I make am I am I able to do this?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

Like you had that moment, you had that moment, you're in transition, and you have that moment of like, I don't know if I can do this or not.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:26

Yes, most people have that moment at the end. Yes, that was intense, and so I'm like trying to push, but I feel like the more that I'm pushing, the more pain I feel. So I start to get in my head where I'm like, if I don't push, I won't have pain. So I don't want to like push too hard. Like it just I was playing this mind game with myself, and this is where I truly see what they mean and what you guys mean when you say like this is all a mind thing, like it's literally in your mind, and you have to, you know, control yourself with that. And um, I just remember screaming so loud and just screaming and screaming, and I want it to be over. And I guess what um my midwife had said is that my cervix apparently maybe wasn't fully, fully open, or you had a lip, you had a cervical lip, which is like basically where there's just a little bit of your cervix left that's blocking the baby's head from coming down.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

Okay, yeah. So she then tried to push that lip and you felt that.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:23

Yes, yes, she was doing that, and I was like, huh. So then I remember she said, you know, it'd probably be I was trying to do it on all fours. I tried turning around, and baby just did not want to come out. She was just hanging out in there. I mean, she was trying to come out, but it wasn't working. So then they got me out of the water and decided let's try it on the bed and see if we can get what we need and get more of a leverage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:49

And so then it's almost like you were floating a little bit too much. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, and you needed a little more gravity, less less buoyancy.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:58

Yes. I mean, I agreed at that point. I was like, I wasn't gonna resist anything that she said. I knew that at that point I was in so much pain that I'm like, I don't care where this baby comes out, let's just get her out. So, um, and I was doing it naturally, which is exactly what I wanted. So it didn't matter to me where she came out, it's just as long as I did it without meds. And so I didn't even have the IV. Like it felt so like empowering. Like I will say it felt so empowering to be like, no, I don't want the IV. No, I don't want that. No, I don't want that. Like it just felt so good to be like, you don't have to, you know. And um, so laying down, you know, and then pushing and pushing. And um, I do feel like that's where I don't know why I wanted to put my hands on my chest. Like, whenever I like I think that was great.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:44

It felt instinctual to me. But in the hospital, of course, they're always like, No, you're gonna get more leverage if you put your hands behind your legs, which sure, but if you you know, that was I've never seen someone push like that when you were holding your chest, but I've but your body's Gonna tell you to do what your body wants to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:02

Yeah, and I I don't know, it's always been like whenever I'm pushing, like even when I have to poop, like that's what I do. It's just like I've always done that. And so when I was pushing, I felt the most leverage when I was squeezing my chest. Like that's just what felt good to me. And so when the nurses kept telling me to grab my legs, I felt like I was losing myself, like I couldn't get what I needed to get out. So that part was a little frustrating, you know. And I feel like there were some nurses that came in that had no idea what my birth plan was. They didn't even take a look at it. And that's frustrating because you're just like, what are you doing here? You didn't look, I mean, if they had seen what I they wouldn't have been doing, all the things they were doing. So I was a little frustrated with that. But um, granted, you know, eventually I pushed and pushed and pushed, and then she was starting to come out. But what was amazing to me is the way that God designed our bodies to literally numb, I don't know if you've ever experienced or anyone else's experience this, but like the whole granted, I felt the ring of fire. Yes, I felt that ring of fire very strongly. But what I mean is like I felt the pain, but I couldn't feel her head coming out. So I was pushing, but I had no idea if her head was out or not. Like I just felt pain the whole time. I felt pain, and it was all equal, equally painful. And so I just remember they were like, oh, you know, oh, her head's almost here. Oh, her head's coming out, or you know, oh, come here comes her shoulder. Like it just, I didn't feel any of it. Like I didn't feel her coming out, which I thought was very strange. Like I thought I'd feel every bit, but I think in some parts it was like the outer lip of like my labia, maybe just the outer layer was numb because then also when she was trying to sew me after I tore just like a little bit. Um, she said like stage two-ish. But when the OB was sewing me up, I she was numbing me. She's like, Okay, this might burn with like the needle, but I didn't feel any of it. I'm like, you probably didn't even have to do that. I don't feel it. And she just kept poking me and she's like, Okay, and I was like, Did you poke it yet? And she was like, Yeah, about eight times. I'm like, I didn't feel that. So that was a big shock to me. I thought for sure I would have felt everything, but I think Yeah, other people don't experience that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:16

Um, some I mean, some people probably could or do, but that's not like something that is expected or usually happens.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:25

Really? So that really okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:27

Yeah, I just a little blessing to you there. Um for that part. Yeah, it probably I mean, maybe like there was just a nerve that got blocked or something. Like, I don't, I don't know. Maybe there's just so much pressure in that area that it kind of like fell asleep. I don't know. But yeah, people getting stitched up can usually feel it intensely. So even with the even with the lidocaine, they're usually like, more lidocaine, please. Yes, I can feel that.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:55

So yeah. Wow. Okay, well, yeah, now I'm feeling really lucky because I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

Your great birth just got greater.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:04

Yes, it did. I'm like, wow, I did not feel that. And like after giving birth, the most painful part was the hemorrhoids. Like, I didn't even really hurt from the stitches or anything. The healing part was more of the hemorrhoids. So I've never had hemorrhoids like that before.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:18

It was like well, you you pushed out a pretty big baby. Tell her tell everybody how big she was.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:22

Oh, yeah. So she was 10 pounds, six ounces, which was a lot bigger than I think. I think um the midwife she was saying, Oh, I think she's sunny side up.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:32

Yeah, she thought she was OP because but she was really just that big.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:35

Yeah, she kept saying, like, I think she because she was trying to figure out why she was so hard to push out. I think because that's what she told me when I saw her later. She's like, I just couldn't figure out why you were struggling to push her out because we had moved the lip, we had gotten everything done, why was she not coming out? And then she was like, Oh, and then she saw her head. Well, that's why. She's just a big girl, she's just a big old baby. So, um, but yeah, so then we pushed her out, and I decided to um, I didn't want them to do anything with the umbilical cord. I wanted to keep everything intact and push out the placenta by myself. Um, and so the Obi was like really respectful of that. And she just said, you know, is it okay if I just feel where it is? Because if it's right there, you can just push it out. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, Oh, it's right there. So all you got to do is give it one good push. And so I pushed it out. And um, it was just nice for the first time to not have someone digging in there and pulling things out of me. It was just kind of my own. Um, and I lost, I think they said like half a pint of blood or something like that. I don't remember what they it was like a lot of blood apparently. Um, from her birth. So it's more than half a pint if it was a lot of blood. Okay, yeah. See, oh yeah. See, I'm not really good with half a liter, maybe. Yeah, it was a good, it was a good amount, they said. Yeah, half a pint, that's not very big. It was I haven't slept in a few days, so um, but yeah, so I think um they just said it was a lot of blood. They said it was close to like what they would call hemorrhage.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:08

But um, and you weren't hemorrhaging, you just yeah, I mean, you did. I mean, you lost you lost a lot of blood.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:15

Yeah, so that's probably what that is. But then I remember after that, holy cow, I don't remember. I think you had left to get the I went to go get the breastfriend for you. Yeah, that's where that happened because then I I remember. Do you remember? I do, I remember pieces. I remember I didn't have the baby. I think David was holding the baby while they were gonna transfer me to a wheelchair to bring me to the next room. Um, and I was looking at them like they were crazy. I could not move, like I was just torn apart, but like it was ran over by a car. And I'm like, you want me to get into that? I was like, okay. So I sat up and I tried to turn my body, and I all I remember is my ears got really hot, like on fire hot. And my ears got hot, and then suddenly I felt my feet get hot, and it was like this rush of like pins and needles, and I felt so dizzy and lightheaded. And I looked at the nurse and I was like, I don't, I was like, I thought I think I'm tired, or something. I said something to her, and that's all I remember. And the next thing I know, I'm like laying in the bed on her lap, and there's like four other nurses staring at me, trying to like get me to wake up. Apparently, I passed out in a minute.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:33

I saw it happen. It was the weirdest thing. Well, no, I didn't see it happen. I was walking down the hall, and as I was walking towards your room, all these other nurses started rushing towards your room. And I was like, Oh, good gravy, what is happening? And I walked in, and the nurse was holding you in her lap, and she said she just passed out. And I was like, Oh, and yes, you were unconscious on the on the bed.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:55

Oh, okay, okay. So I didn't even hear her say that to you. So I just remember you were still unconscious at that point. Yeah, okay. So, and I asked, I was like, and then I just remember hearing the nurses going, she doesn't have an IV. We can't give her any blood. She doesn't have an IV, like they were all freaking out. And I just remember, like in my dazed state, I was like, Don't worry, I'm fine, I'm fine. I was like, I don't need blood, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:21

Like I was just like, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:24

And you were fine. You just you needed to go at it slower than you did. I mean, that's that's not unheard of, like people passing out the first time after they get up after having the baby. I've done it, like it's it happens.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:37

Okay, well, yeah, I was I it happened with Logan. I didn't quite pass out with Logan, but I remember getting up feeling dizzy and I had to sit back down. But with her, that was the first time I've ever passed out. I've never had that happen before. So I was like, so that's what that feels like. Never had that happen. Um, so yeah, that was a new experience. But then I was okay, and they moved me into the other bed and I went to the other room, and the nurse put a towel over me, which is what we talked about later on, because I was I didn't I don't remember any of it because I was in such a daze. But they put a towel over me and then put baby on me, and I was like, I want to do skin to skin. So I was a little disappointed that this lady did that. I don't know why she did that.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:24

She, I can tell you why she did that, but it was on there too long. She did that because you had been in the water and so your bra was wet. And so the so then it was cold because then it was in the air. And so she didn't want the baby laying on your wet bra. And also, like babies are wet when they come out. So, um, so that was why it was there at first, but it should have been like removed, and your baby should have been put skin to skin with you, like very, very quickly after that. But the issue was the baby just stay there on the towel. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:00

And then she started worrying about like her levels and like her oxygen. Her temperature, yeah. Yeah, her temperature. And then she like took her and was um so um, but I will say 95, 98% of what happened is like it was so great. Like it was just the best. I mean, it was really a redemption birth, like it was amazing. And I just like the empowerment that I felt from it walking out, I felt like I actually gave birth, like for the first time. Like it made you me feel like I did work, you know, like I worked for this, and it made me feel proud, you know. I was so proud that I actually did this. And I mean, my last two, like I don't feel like I know that they count and I know that I did it, but at the same time, it's like I didn't feel any of it, so I might as well have not even been there, you know? Like it just feels that way. Where this time it's like I was all in, like this was a lot of head, mind, body, spirit, all connected. It was just it was an amazing, amazing feeling. And um, having her like laying on my chest, and like you know, before with my other two, I would have to lay her in the bassinet, that's what they tell me to do, and it's safe and all that stuff, and so I would never really bond with my baby. But this time I was like, nope, she's on my chest like the whole time, and I just kept her there, and I didn't want her to move, I just want her to be there, and I just felt like I mean, so much oxytocin, it was just amazing. So, yeah, and I feel like ever since then, I just feel like I have a much in some ways I have much more bond with her, you know. I mean, my other two, obviously, I did too, and I love all of them so very much. But it's just the birth really does make a huge difference, and there's also some things like with Logan, they put the that urethromycin on his eye, and he had his eye was swollen shut for two months. He couldn't really open his eye, it was like infected, and it was just it was horrible. Like all these issues that were happening. I always wondered, like, oh, is it because of the epidural? Is it because of the medicine? Is it because of the vaccines? Is it because and I always like, or and then I had the medicine for the strep B or whatever the antibiotics, like, are these things happening because of that? And it's like for the first time I can look at her and be like, if this is happening, it's just, you know, like if you're having eczema, okay, that's just a gut bacteria, let's work with that. Or, you know, like I don't have to sit here and go, oh, is this happening because of the vaccine? Or is this happening because I had an epidural? You know, I'm not questioning so many things now. I kind of feel like I can just breathe a little bit. I don't have to wonder. Um, so I feel like just as a mom, I don't feel as worried. I was worried about SIDS with my first two, and with her, I'm just not really worried at all. It's just been amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:49

So yeah. It has been amazing. Yeah. I was going to say this, and my husband who's editing this, if you want to cut this into an earlier part, if it makes more sense, you can. If not, you can leave it here. But um, just in case people were wondering about Lena's birth, you kept referring um to the OB. But we know you hired a midwife and had a midwife there. What was really cool about your birth, and I've never seen this before, just so you know, is that your midwife was your care provider and she was like the one in you know in charge or whatever, and the one providing care for you. She had an OB who was part of her practice who came in because the OB wanted to see and learn what natural birth looks like. And she wanted to see a water birth if that's what happened, and she wanted to see a natural birth that didn't have an epidural and didn't have all these interventions. And it was really cool because the midwife was coaching this OB on this is this is what you do in natural birth, and we're a lot more hands-off and like all this kind of stuff, and was like teaching her how to just like give you space and watch you and let you do your thing. And and I have never seen that. It was so cool. So I had like mad respect for this OB who was in here, but she didn't have to be in there, she didn't have to be in there at all. Like she was not needed, quote unquote. She literally just wanted to like see and learn, which to me was awesome. I was like, way to go, OB, because she probably does a lot of C-sections, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:26

No, she was, I mean, she was wonderful and she was very, very sweet and very kind. And I had no idea until you told me that later. So I think that was really cool that she was there. Um, I actually did have a question for you is when she the what she was doing when she was down there and she was like putting her hands around the head, working the head out of the area. Um, is that something that the midwife would have done um if she was not there? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:57

They like a lot of midwives, and that one in particular, they like to give you sort of a couple things. One, they're trying to like support your perennium and and help prevent tearing if they can. Two, they're trying to like put like put pressure um where you're supposed to direct your pushing. That is like another reason they'll be doing that down there is they're like, okay, I want you to push right here. Do you feel this? Like feel where I am, like push in this direction um to sort of like give you like this vision and goal of where to push towards. And then another thing is they get like a lot of lubrication and they're putting it around the baby's head, usually too. Um almost like literally like greasing them up so they'll slide out better. Genuinely, that's why they're doing it. Um and yes, the midwife would have done that just the exact same way. Now, if you had if you had said like please don't stick your hands in there, like she would have been respectful of that. But unless somebody says not to, generally speaking, the midwives will do that to try and help assist baby coming out, like home birth midwives even do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:06

So, yeah, I was just curious because I didn't know if that was just something because the OB was there, she did that.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:14

Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't midwives.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:17

Oh wow, okay. So then she was kind of was the midwife sort of helping her do like telling her what to do with that, or did she kind of just do oh wow? Yeah. That's really cool. I did not know that. I think you were telling me that.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:32

Yeah, of course. All right, Miss Pamela. This has been lovely and wonderful. I've actually really enjoyed rehashing all of this. And I didn't know as much detail about your first two births as you just told me. I mean, I we talked about them extensively in your prenatals, but it was cool hearing it and like a narrative with all the family context and everything in it. Overall, what would you say God taught you the most in like those experiences, whether it was an isolated experience or just like all three of them combined? What do you feel like he spoke to you most or you learned most from him?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:11

I learned to, well, I definitely learned forgiveness. That was a huge one that I learned. I mean, to this day, I'm still like, I feel like with that particular um scenario has really taught me forgiveness. Um, and that was a big one. And then another one, I feel like the Lord has just really, I feel like whenever there's a time that I feel like I'm doubting myself or I'm doubting him, it's like I have this, all of what happened with my kids to kind of remind me like, remember what I showed you with Logan. Remember, I showed you that his name was what it's supposed to be, regardless of what you were going through. And then, you know, remember how you were depressed with Lydia, but look how far you've come out of that, or you know, and then all this fear that I had with my get having another kid, like having my third when I was so done, like just seeing that the Lord had had plans for me that if I had not followed through, she wouldn't be here. Like I can't even I think about that every day where I'm like, I can't believe that I almost didn't, you know, like I almost just shut that out and avoided it. But I had like I pushed myself to listen to him, and I just believe so strongly that it was meant to be. And I feel oh, I just feel like he's taught me so much about um birth in general, too, just the whole experience of being a woman and this ability that he's given us and our bodies, this ability to do something so incredible. And I just feel like it's something that I'm now gonna be able to tell my children, you know, and to my girls, you know, like I love now that I've learned so much, I feel like when they're pregnant and they're, you know, trying to figure out how to breastfeed and what to do with birth. And I just feel like I'll know exactly like where to take them, how to talk to them, you know, just to get them very much prepared and to let them map out their birth plan so that they don't have those regrets, you know, and have them like pray about it and see what the Lord tells them to do. Like, I just feel like it's such a huge experience. I mean, it I can't imagine a life where I didn't give birth. Like, I just feel like birth in itself is such a learning experience, you know, and a connection. And like I said too, like you can't, I don't feel like it's human strength to do this. Like, after what I went through with Lena, like it literally is like you need the Lord's power and strength to get through this because I could definitely not do that alone. Right. So Amen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:47

This has been great. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:52

It was fun to kind of remember everything and details I kind of forgot, and I was like, oh wait, yeah, that did happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:00

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. You can reach me at Surrendered Birth Services on Instagram or email me at contact at Surrendered Birth Services.com. Be sure not to miss an episode by hitting the follow button. Also, we'd love for you to leave a written review of the show so that more people's births and lives can be changed by the love of Jesus and the empowerment of accurate birth education. If you really enjoyed this episode in particular, please take a screenshot of it and post it to your Instagram story tagging Surrendered Birth Services. If you would like to be a guest on the Surrendered Birth Stories podcast, please click the link in the episode show notes to fill out your interest form. Also, if you're interested in taking my childbirth classes, birth consultations, or having me as your birth doula, please click on the link in the show notes to take you to my website. For online and in-person options. Just as a reminder, this show is not giving medical advice. So please continue to see your personal care provider as needs arise. We hope you have a great week. And remember, learn all that you can, make the best plans, and then leave it in God's hands. Well, can I see Lena real quick? Can you show her to me?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:32

Sweet girl. Just sitting there past. Oh my goodness. Hi, Lena. Oh, she's so my gosh. Oh my gosh. That was like the best moment. She just had like the perfectly timed sleep smile for that. Oh my goodness. You've got her little hand, like she's so precious.