The Packaging Therapist

Maximizing Cost Efficiency: Pallet Strategies and Cube Specs, with Trey Carson

• John Tyreman • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Are your logistics costs soaring due to inefficient pallet patterns and cube specs? In this episode, Jessie Schwartz is joined by Trey Carson from TOPS Software, a company specializing in software solutions for optimizing pallet spaces. Trey shares valuable insights on maximizing pallet density, reducing shipping costs, and enhancing supply chain efficiency. In this conversation, you'll learn:

  • Why designing around the 40"x48" palette is crucial for cost-effective shipping.
  • Real-world examples of how slight packaging adjustments can lead to significant cost savings.
  • The importance of setting concrete maximum parameters for pallet utilization.
  • Best practices for calculating and improving pallet efficiency using TOPS Pro.
  • How to balance pallet stability with stacking strength for optimal performance.

Tune in to discover actionable strategies for mastering your pallet patterns and cutting down logistics expenses.

Connect with Trey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trey-carson/
TOPS Website: https://topseng.com/

If you love our content and want to learn more about the packaging industry, hit SUBSCRIBE!

Connect with us: www.StrategicPackagingPartners.com
Jessie Schwartz - jessie@stratpackpartners.com

Jessie Schwartz:

Welcome to the Packaging Therapist Podcast. I am your host, Jessie Schwartz. I've been a packaging engineer for 20 years and currently the founder of Strategic Packaging Partners, where we are obsessed with creating strategic approaches to packaging to enable growth and cost savings in the CPG industry. My goal in this podcast is to discuss hot topics in the packaging space to enable you to make strategic decisions for your business that impact the bottom line and take the chaos out of manufacturing. Join us for technical discussions about packaging and let's make the world of manufacturing better together. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Packaging Therapist. Today, we are talking about palette patterns, cube specs, how your boxes go on a palette, and why that's important. And I am joined today by Trey from TOPS. And Trey, let us know a little bit about you.

Trey Carson:

Yeah, thanks for having me on, Jesse. So a little bit about me. I'm a sales manager that also handles strategic partnerships with top software. We're doing it for man, eight years now, almost nine, um, came out of college and actually have personal friends with the owner. And he say, Hey, we're looking for some folks out in the packaging world of top software. I said, All right, well, what's this all about? Got into it and haven't looked back since. Um, don't really have a packaging background, but, you know, I've learned to fall in love with it over the years, went back to school, did my MBA. And it's just, uh, you know, getting into the business side of it. And, um, you know, happy to be learning and growing with the industry.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for joining us today. And um, Let's talk a little bit about why it's important to design around that 40 by 48 palette So we're primarily talking food and beverage, but it applies to anything that goes on a palette. That's not custom shaped for Whatever it is. So one of the industry standards or the main industry standard around palettes are a 40 by 48 and And if you think about it, you have to ship the entire column of air above that pallet. So whether or not your product is there, you're paying for that through distribution. And say a little bit about why it's so important that we kind of have some forethought in pallet design and how product goes on a pallet and some of the ways that you've seen customers utilize the design of a pallet to reduce costs of logistics. Thanks.

Trey Carson:

Yeah. So with, with tops, our whole goal is to increase the amount of product that fits on that palette. So product density and a story I can actually, you know, share. Is one of kind of our founding stories about tops really got started and it ties into these fundamentals because it's the same story for the whole 40 years of our existence is, is that it's getting more product in that footprint that is ubiquitous throughout your entire supply chain, just making sure that you're using it to its max. So 40 40 years ago, imagine this. So we're in 1984, right? And this is a big chip and snack manufacturer. And they're looking at this challenge that they have with shipping so much air. And what we had is a bill with who's the founder of tops got in tight with one of these VPs of distribution, and they were looking at this problem and start off as a consultancy, um, type of arrangement to see where can we get some efficiency gains on this? And what they did actually to dramatize this point was they took an entire 53 foot dry van, a full shipment of potato chips. Took everything out of the boxes, all of the chips out of the bags, dumped them on the, you know, bottom of the truck. So how many inches do you think of the truck? You know, how much Potato chips. You think it actually filled up

Jessie Schwartz:

I mean, uh,

Trey Carson:

to put you on the spot?

Jessie Schwartz:

maybe a sixth of the trailer.

Trey Carson:

Yeah. So trucks are 108 inches or so. It was only 10 inches of actual product, right? The rest is going to be packaging and air. So, so much room there for, for improvement. Obviously you've got quality concerns and things of that nature, but you know, with a product like this shipping is, is a huge component of the cost. So what they did is they use actually the precursor, uh, to tops pro, which is our product. And it was called Bag Sizer. And they did an analysis that showed that shrinking the bag size by just, you know, fractions of an inch here, fractions of an inch there, and running it through these different counts and arrangements, and all the different, um, palette patterns that, that arrange from that, they were able to save, you know, somewhere in the realm of 6, 7, 8 percent on each and every palette that was going out. So you can imagine with their type of volume, that the Cost savings from increasing the product density at that palette level by changing just the bag size and then how that impacted the arrangement and counts inside the box, you know, trickled through to shipping. It trickled through even to the warehouse management because now you've got seven to 8 percent more palette room. Because you've increased how much product is able to fit on it. So it flows through everywhere. And what they proceeded to do from there was go and they showed it to the board. And that's how tops really got kicked off is because the product called bag sizer at the time was able to produce this data and actually show here is what it's going to spec out at for each stage from the box to the pallet, to the truck. And then ultimately how that increased the yield. And from there they took that and they ran with it. Uh, the next, you know, five years was traveling all around the globe to all the different, uh, manufacturing and distribution centers to affect this change across the board. And that's really what got TOPS started because that program that was written, BOGS, or excuse me, BagSizer, was what became TOPS Pro and is still used to this day in that exact same capacity. These algorithms are the same. They've been making the same type of improvements Since day one.

Jessie Schwartz:

that's a great story. And to provide a little more background, if you aren't aware of T. O. P. S. or a palette diagramming software, it allows you to put the primary packaging, let's say you've got cartons that go in a larger box. You put the dimensions in of all the primaries that go into the larger box. It helps you confirm that that box size that you have is right and all the cartons will fit in there, can show you tolerances. And then it allows you to add those, um, boxes to a palette, and the program itself will diagram the entire palette for you. And you can do, um, different arrangements, column stacking, interlocking. You can create parameters and. Make sure that what you, what you receive in terms of options actually works for your organization. For example, you can put in zero overhang because we all know overhang leads to a lot of damage. But the reason I really like it is if, if a business can, can think ahead. And say, hey, this is what we're thinking in terms of a carton of, let's say, cake mix. This is what we're thinking. And if they can get a hold of their packaging engineer or potentially their supplier and say, hey, we're thinking about these dimensions. What does a pallet look like? Um, you really only make little tiny adjustments. That can have a huge impact. So when you think about a carton, if you just take a 16th of an inch out, sometimes you can add a whole nother case to every layer or 2 cases to every layer. And so it allows you the freedom to say, okay, we have a little bit of play in the design. And hey, if we could save 15 percent on logistics, we would definitely consider slight modifications because, um, you know, Like, like, you know, Trey, marketing drives a lot of decisions and how the product sits on the shelf. They really love the billboard and they're not willing to like, they're not, they don't give up that space very easily. But if you can come at it with a financial story, then it becomes a different conversation.

Trey Carson:

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I like to call it the low hanging fruit and a lot of these supply chains because, you know, these things, it doesn't take very long to actually use tool like tops to do that analysis to simulate it out to get it out in front of you to create concise and, um, you know, professional reports that not only visually, but, you know, show the solutions, but also gives the data. That you can then take and do these extrapolations on shipping, storage, uh, even labor. Um, it all comes down to pallet efficiency.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any advice for people as they think they take this information and they're like, wow, I really want to have a conversation with my business team around optimizing, or I want to have a conversation with warehouse managers, right? I think there is something here for my organization. Like, how do people. Start either, we can talk about it from two ways. So if you've got a brand new product, that's one way. But another way is like, wow, we want to do an assessment. We really are looking for cost savings. And I'm not really sure, I don't even know what my pallets look like. I don't know which ones have maybe two, three inches of underhang, or maybe they're only 36 inch pallets and they could be much taller than that. 63. So say a little bit about a strategy around how people can take either new products or existing products and look at them.

Trey Carson:

Yeah, so it is two, two sides of the same coin. Whether it's a new product that you're coming out with or something that you've got, um, historically. And, and especially what I would say is start with the high volume items. Those are the ones where you're going to stand to have the most cost reduction and benefit from, uh, by doing this type of analysis. But when, when you look at those pallets, you know so many times, um, the simple column stack can pass the eye test. Maybe it's got an inch of under hanger there, you know, here or there. You can always start with those. Um, it is super quick to say I already have the box size. Not even gonna change that. I just wanna make sure I'm getting the best pallet pattern. That is a very quick analysis that we can do. Um, you know, start there. We do even free trials. Come talk to us. We will be able to take you through how to actually do that calculation. Um, but the other component of it is you've got to come up with the standards that you're going to have for your pallet. Um, so depending on everyone's product is a little bit different. You have certain requirements from customers and vendors, but establishing the maximum height and the amount of overhang that you're going to allow are kind of, you know, step one. So whether that's the racking in your warehouse, or if you're going to double stack in trucks. You know, that's what's going to inform the maximum height for your pallet. But if you start off by getting concrete, these are the maximums that we can achieve on a pallet. Then from there, you can use a tool like TOPS Pro to make sure you're getting as much as you can out of those restrictions. When you do your box design, when you do your pallet layouts, um, those types of calculations.

Jessie Schwartz:

That's great advice. Um, in terms of how the industry is evolving, we kind of started off with the snacks, the bag snacks, and then it was like, wow, there's a huge opportunity here. And tops is kind of evolved now to being, um. A tool that anyone can leverage, whether it's a tool that you have internally, or your packaging suppliers are, um, have it and kind of help help you make decisions. Um, where do you see this industry going in the future? Um. To even be something organizations can leverage even more for insights and abilities to save. Money all the way around, right? Reducing packaging. Increasing the quantity on a pallet, those types of things.

Trey Carson:

Yeah, so, you know, where I see it going is, you know, everything is coming down to data driven decisions. Right. That's that's some three letter buzzwords there. But you know, it's true. You got to see the information to make good decisions. And so a lot of times where people are starting and wanting to go and get into this type of optimization is that need, um, to make decisions and they want the data for it. So we're able to produce that. And where I see, you know, things really going is seamless integration. Between a platform like TOPS Pro and perhaps, you know, a PLM, uh, your, your ERP, WMS, any of those systems that serve as repositories for that data, you know, doing the calculation in TOPS and then having it automatically, you know, arrive and be Semi permanently saved in those systems is really what people are, there's a hunger out there for that because then you've got concrete data that can inform current and future strategies.

Jessie Schwartz:

yeah, absolutely. And as we see, AI or a large language model, um, data decision making come kind of the forefront of everything, including manufacturing, do you think TOPS will ever get to a point where it's actually making suggestions? Because I know, I mean, I've used TOPS in the past, I could kind of manually adjust a carton or a case. But do you think you'll get to the point where it's making suggestions? Like, oh, take out a quarter of an inch or take out whatever you could, you could get better, you know, this much better.

Trey Carson:

Yeah, you know, and in preparation for this, I was speaking a little bit with the development team and talked about that. This is definitely something on our radar where, where we see it as being the most useful is, is really just making the user experience that much simpler. You know, like you said, it's. Over time, it is recognized that, yeah, you know, if you're doing domestic shipments, that's usually 53 dry vans, at least in North America, the height on those 100, 108, 110 inches. So, if you're going to double stack these, go up to 54 inches on that maximum pallet height, you know, those type of suggestions and overhang. And then also, where we see it'll be helpful is, is, um, with actually getting, you know, Kind of metadata out of tops. So right now you do an analysis for a single type of product. You're going to look at its entire packaging sequence from the retail unit, you know, out to the palette to the truck. Well, there's a lot of information in there from parameters to the actual solution information and being able to compile that and kind of query it and a user friendly way is something that we look to include in future versions of tops as well.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, that'll be fun to see that, see that come out and to see the, the program evolve even more. So anything else your developer said you want to share with us?

Trey Carson:

Well,

Jessie Schwartz:

of the

Trey Carson:

sure, sure. Yeah, the ones that make it go. Um, you know, Out focus really has been, though, in just the past few years has been this great migration to the cloud. Of course, um, that is continuing to grow and being able to provide accessibility and security for these companies and their data that that they're generating from a program like tops and how we connect those Cloud solutions to these other systems. That is really where we've been focusing most of our development effort. Um, now I say that we are going to have an exciting new release tops pro 7.0 It's gonna be a major version release a whole new user interface. It's gonna get a facelift. So all of that's gonna be part of, um, you know, in the next few months here before 2025 that's gonna be rolling out as well.

Jessie Schwartz:

Any demos at Peck Expo?

Trey Carson:

Yes, yes, come visit us at Pack Expo. We'll be there. We're doing trainings for our live trainings for our current customers. If you want to be a part of those, let us know and we'll get you taken care of.

Jessie Schwartz:

So I want to kind of circle back to, we talked a little bit about strategies and how people could think about leveraging kube specs for their organization. Uh, we talked a little bit about like, okay, where would you start? Okay. Your top 10 SKUs. Um, and then taking a look at their, those, those pallet specs and either you'd have them internally, or that would be something that you could get from your supplier. You should be able to get from your supplier. Um, What types of, um, utilization numbers should people be looking for? Because like on a TOPS report, it will have different data around dimensions, but it will have a utilization number. So a percent utilization of that palette. And it's good to set parameters for what ideal is, because 100 percent isn't, isn't, um, isn't appropriate. Or, I mean, it's not

Trey Carson:

a lot of times.

Jessie Schwartz:

right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of times. Or like you wouldn't, you know, Yeah, you wouldn't aim for a hundred percent. So talk a little bit about some of the data around a cube spec. So if folks want to take a look at their products, they kind of know, Oh, this could be an opportunity. And then any kind of information you have around, okay, well, let's say it's only 70%. If you jump up 20%, are there any kind of thoughts around savings? Like in terms of percentages or anything you'd speak to around that?

Trey Carson:

Yeah, so to kind of start this, I would say it does come back to, as far as utilization, you know, having concrete maximum parameters. Because you can kind of fudge the numbers on that when you, your utilization is based on a parameter that's not truly your maximum possible. So getting concrete on those is number one. But then as you do these calculations, the big thing you'll find is that with smaller items, there are lots of good options and good possibilities. So those aren't typically smaller items. You can get 90 plus percent cubic efficiency and really what you should be targeting for especially small items that You can do lots of different case counts and arrangements with those ones really need to be up there in the 90th persons Um larger items are much more difficult But those are also where you really need to lean on tops and you know to do those calculations the most Because with larger items there are fewer good options, right? Because it's it's bigger There's it's a small footprint. You may it's just not going to fit very well So with those larger items, you really need to make sure you're getting the best layout because if you're not You The difference in efficiency will be 15, 20%. So, those larger items, making sure you're doing the right count, orientation, arrangement of, of those units in the box or, you know, and out to the pallet is going to be critical. Um, with those, it just depends. If it's, if it's a pretty big product, you know, 70 percent plus is, is a bit more realistic for those. Yeah,

Jessie Schwartz:

say a little bit about palette strength because, you know, we're double stacking, sometimes triple stacking, um, and column stacking. Anytime, anytime you can stack corners on top of other corners is when you get the most strength out of the corrugated box. And flutes should always run vertically. Okay, um, but, but sometimes it's like you don't want like a tippy palette either because sometimes columns can create sort of this leaning tower of Pisa effect. Um, so we interlock, right? And is, do you have any guidance around how a palette pattern is built in terms of interlocking? And is there a, what are the downsides of kind of disengaging some of those corners? Any best practices on that?

Trey Carson:

obviously, if you're worried about quality assurance, you've got crushing going on, then, like you said, the corners is going to be better. Anytime you have a more square box, those don't interlock too well, right? Because the square, you're not going to get the, When you interlock, you're not going to get that crossover, that kind of brick laying look that you want that's going to create the stability. So, um, you know, if you've got a heavy product and crushing is an issue, then, you know, your column stack is going to be the best option for strength. Within TOPS, we have a stacking strength calculator. And what our goal of that, that program is basically to look at the solution you calculated, whether it's got, you know, the degrees of interlocking, because a lot of times you can column stack. The first few layers, and then, you know, rotate the top ones to prevent the tipping, at least at the top portion. So, um, those factors are taken into account in TOPS. It also lets you input other factors, of course, like humidity, storage time, um, modes of transport. Those things will play into, um, Um, you know, our formula that calculates what the recommended ECT range is for your box. And so depending on how aggressive versus conservative you want to go with that, you know, we can suggest here's here's a range. You know, if you've got a pretty durable product that you're not worried about, you know, getting a little bit of damage is OK. You know, then you can be. more aggressive on the corrugate and your materials there. But otherwise, you can use that to get an ECT range that you can go and take to your suppliers and make sure you're within that type of range.

Jessie Schwartz:

that's great. And then, um, when you do get those cases, and you get that range of ECT, and you talk to your supplier, it's always really important to test, to test that out as well. So test it through your case erectors, test it through your palletizer, and then if you can, take it to, take that whole system to a 3rd party evaluator, kind of depending on risk. And you can. Talk to your business team about that. Um, it'd be great. It's always good to get a 3rd party evaluation of the whole system and validate the specs. Um, and if not, I mean, I have some. Clients who just they'll load a trailer up and drive it around and see what happens. Um, hit some potholes neutral drop. Well, maybe not that 1, but just kind of wanting to understand and seeking to understand the total system. And it's also a good idea, especially if you're in a refrigerated or frozen where the humidity levels are higher. If you are double stacking, or even if you have just a single pallet, usually you don't double stack, hopefully, but, um. Test test, like a do a static test, so you just set those pallets in a corner. For a few weeks, and make sure that you're not seeing. Um, those being compromised and those pallets tipping over. That's also a good measure. Any other advice you'd give, Trey?

Trey Carson:

No, not so much. Um, but there's always accessories and things of that nature. You can add into, um, you know, friction pads and such that I can help out. Obviously the, the classic stretch wrap, uh, can, can help with that. But

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah. Yeah. And not for this show, but um, having, having the right force load for your stretch wrap is really, really important. Maybe that's another show idea. Um, but you have to have the proper containment and more wraps doesn't equal more containment.

Trey Carson:

right

Jessie Schwartz:

So cool. Well, anything else you're just dying to share?

Trey Carson:

now at this time, you know, we're, we're excited for anyone that's, uh, you know, felt moved by, uh, this conversation come out to our website, top C and G. com. We'll get you a free trial. Let you talk with someone, uh, to, to get you set up with doing a quick case study, pick your highest volume product and let's see if we can do better.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, absolutely. And details to connect with Trey and Tops will be in the show notes. Thanks everybody for joining. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. If you found the content helpful, please be sure to share your comments with me by leaving a review so that I can keep the topics coming your way. If you haven't already followed me, click subscribe on your podcast app. So you get notified the next time we release a show. If you have packaging issues, you want to talk about contact us via our website at www.strategicpackagingpartners.com and click on the contact us page. Thanks everyone.