The Packaging Therapist

Compostable Packaging Solutions: A Closer Look at Cellulose-Based Films, with Futamura

• Jessie Schwartz • Season 1 • Episode 14

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Plastic pollution and finding sustainable alternatives have become urgent priorities in the packaging industry. 

In this episode of The Packaging Therapist, Dave Craggan, Christopher Tom, and Chris Tyra from Futamura join Jessie Schwartz in a discussion that explores these issues and how cellulose-based films and other innovations in compostable solutions are transforming the market. In this conversation, you'll learn:

  • How partnerships with suppliers have evolved the use of films over the past five years.
  • The shift from sourcing finished films to collaborating on laminated film structures.
  • The compostability and biodegradability standards of metallized films, and their environmental impacts.
  • The technological advancements in compostable films, particularly for food and beverage applications.
  • Current market trends and the economic and environmental balance for sustainable packaging solutions.

Learn more about Futamura: https://www.futamuragroup.com/en/

If you love our content and want to learn more about the packaging industry, hit SUBSCRIBE!

Connect with us: www.StrategicPackagingPartners.com
Jessie Schwartz - jessie@stratpackpartners.com

Jessie Schwartz:

Welcome to the Packaging Therapist Podcast. I am your host, Jessie Schwartz. I've been a packaging engineer for 20 years and currently the founder of Strategic Packaging Partners, where we are obsessed with creating strategic approaches to packaging to enable growth and cost savings in the CPG industry. My goal in this podcast is to discuss hot topics in the packaging space to enable you to make strategic decisions for your business that impact the bottom line and take the chaos out of manufacturing. Join us for technical discussions about packaging and let's make the world of manufacturing better together. welcome everybody to another show of the packaging therapist today. We are joined by Futamura. They are the purveyors of flexible film in the cellulose compostable space. Um, welcome guys to the show. Um, why don't you guys give us a brief introduction, um, each of you and we'll, we'll kick it off.

Dave Craggan:

Okay. Sure. I will lead. I'm Dave Craig and I'm the commercial leader for the Americas. I've been with the company or in the packaging industry for about 14 years now.

Jessie Schwartz:

Fantastic.

Christopher Tom:

Hi, my name is Christopher Tom, Division Manager for Sales and Marketing. Um, I've been with the company 19 years, and I've been in flexible packaging for 21.

Chris J. Tyra:

And, uh, my name is Chris Tyra. I'm the regional sales manager for Futamora. Um, I've been in the flexible packaging world for 15 years. Um, and very happy and proud to be, uh, now on the sustainable compostable side of things after selling plastic for many years, so,

Jessie Schwartz:

Trying to reduce your karma a little.

Chris J. Tyra:

and my carbon footprint.

Jessie Schwartz:

Oh, and your karma. That's very good. All right, cool. So today we want to talk about cellulose based films. Um, there's so many different options in the market right now for compostable films. And we want to talk specifically about the, um, Natureflex that you guys are making. What are the right applications? Um, what are some of the limitations? How do we think about using, uh, compostable films and which products? And so let's dig into some of the details. So you guys are making two different types of films right now. One, you have a cellulose, Um, based line. Um, let's talk specifically about that. Kind of tell us what, how do you make your film? Where does it come from? What are the raw materials, um, have at it?

Christopher Tom:

So we make, uh, we make cellulose films, uh, which includes cellophane, yeah, formation cellophane, which is the original packaging film, and Natureflex, which is the, Compostable version of cellophane. Um, so the main constituent or raw material of our films is wood pulp. It's dissolving wood pulp. And what we, what happens is basically is we, we take this wood pulp and we turn it into a viscose and through a process, we regenerate the viscose into a clear film. So the film is, is, um, it's cast as a clear film and we, um, make rolls of it. And then, um, we, we coat the films. That's one of our specialties is coating the films, which give it, you know, various characteristics, uh, such as, um, moisture barrier and heat sealability. And, um, you know, we make other versions of the film, such as like a metalized film, which I know you're going to ask about that later. And we do some colors as well, like a white film, but in a nutshell, we, we Like I said, it starts off as, um, as a, um, wood pulp. Um, and it becomes a packaging film, which can be used in a lot of different flexible packaging applications. And then as for the nature flex, it will be composted.

Jessie Schwartz:

Okay, fantastic. So let's get into some of those applications. What types of products are really good fits for, um, the NatureFlex films?

Chris J. Tyra:

from, from what we do, I mean, we're, we're across the board in terms of the markets that we serve. Um, we've started out in the, in the food beverage markets. I think that's our primary, uh, focus over the years. Um, you know, every, and within that, the, those markets, you know, there's sub, subcategories such as confectionery. Uh, dried foods, I mentioned the beverages like uh, for stick packs, um, and that sort of thing. Um, produce, over wrap for produce, for um, for bar wrap, like for protein bars or on the go health food bars, snacks, bakery. Um, food service, pharmaceutical, little pill packs for pharmaceutical, and then, um, you know, expanding that into non food, um, what we call industrial type applications, you know, across the board from anything from automotive, um, you know, there's a lot of companies out there that are now starting to, um, it, it, it really embrace sustainability. Um, and start walking the walk and talking the talk and so, um, there's a lot of companies out there that are, that have industrial applications, um, that want to reduce their carbon footprint, that want to make a mark. Um, on improving their, their use of single use plastics, um, and in doing so, um, you know, they're, they're looking for things like flow wrap for, um, HEPA filters or automotive parts or, um, medical device parts or, you know, a slew of different things. So, um, we, we can, anything that is essentially, you know, a plastic application, you know, for the most part, we can, we can fulfill, um, those same standards. Um, and performance with our products as well.

Jessie Schwartz:

Okay. So I work in food and beverage and a few years ago I tried to implement, um, a compostable film, but the barrier properties weren't there. and the product didn't survive shelf life. So things have changed dramatically in the last few years. So kind of update us on the barrier properties. You could stick, you could stick with food and beverage, um, specifically around, you know, getting the intended shelf life, um, getting the intended protection against moisture loss or flavor loss. Say a little bit about the science behind, um, the, the compostable films and where, where you've been. Bye. Where you've come from and then where you are now.

Christopher Tom:

Sure. So, um, in terms of, um, barrier and shelf life, um, you know, um, you can combine our films together. We have a high barrier clear films and we also have the metalized film, which is our highest barrier film. So you can combine the, the high barrier clear films with our metalized film. Um, and then you could also add layers of other bio polymers, you know, such as a PLA or even a met PLA to give even added, you know, moisture barrier. Uh, and that'll give you, in most cases, it'll give you the required, you know, um, MBTR and OTR barriers that you're looking for and shelf life. Um, you know, it's always, obviously, it's always incumbent on the brand owner. To do their own shelf life testing to make sure that the packaging is fit for use and that'll meet their, their shelf life requirements. But, um, you know, um, the proof is where our films are being sold. We sell a lot of our films for, for coffee applications, which is a very, very sensory, you know, um, dependent application, right? So if our films are good enough for, for coffee, you know, they'll be good enough for a lot of other different applications for food and

Dave Craggan:

Air fresheners to Chris, right? We're just talking about that one today, right? An air freshener. Um, you know, the barrier that you get, um, that you need for an air fresheners is another example where we see that. It's funny you mentioned the shelf life item, though, because when when we think about, like over the last five years, um, evolution of How films are being used. And we, we use the phrase proof of concept often in, in our, in our meetings and conversations internally, even when we talk to customers who maybe come to us with a new idea. The proof of concept in so many different applications has changed over the last five years, and we think that the reason why I bring that up is when you ask the question about, okay, you know, maybe that barrier didn't work in a project that was conducted five years ago, what may have changed now is that the partnerships that we have have grown substantially in the last five to eight years, um, who we work with on suppliers, right. Co suppliers and that could be all encompassing of a laminated structure, right? So if you take a fully laminated structure, um, and put it on the shelf today versus any of your conventional plastic packaging that you would have seen in the past, we would probably see equal to or just as good equal to perhaps even better shelf performance as that product. Mm

Jessie Schwartz:

Well, I think you bring up another good point too. And that is when you were referencing working with other suppliers that are making different layer, layer structures that are being combined or laminated together. I think that's a little bit different than how, um, the industry typically thinks of sourcing a film. It's usually like a finished film from one supplier. Um, but you guys are. are being more nimble and becoming experts at the structure that you make and then going to other experts in combining, um, the structure that they are experts at creating to, um, deliver these dynamic films that people are looking for. Um, would you agree that that's a little bit of a different approach than your traditional poly films? And maybe you could speak to some of the benefits that you see coming out of, um, that kind of more of a partnership to create a finished film Just, you know, casting the whole thing in one place.

Dave Craggan:

Yeah, I think as a group, you know, I think all three of us could probably add a little bit something here with experience. But, you know, there's the, there's the monolayer applications where you can go just as far, just as fast with our films. Monolayer with no print in it is a, you know, an easy drop in application for certain products. We think about, um, maybe twist wrap on a Candy over wrap on a bar where deadfold is, is needed. Chris mentioned a little bit of that earlier. Um, and then you start getting in maybe to a two layer lamination, right? Okay. And how fast, how far can you go with two? And then also with three. And when you start getting into those two and threes, the complexity grows a little bit, um, does take some time, but I would say also one of the things that we've seen, um, over the last few years is the evolution of one of our partners, um, getting into the, Sale of pre laminated films where they're taking that step out of the conversion process. So there are companies out there now that are buying our nature Flex films and, and pre laminating them to roles where they are, uh, ready to go onto, uh, a pre machine

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah. And I think sometimes we forget, um, the industry has been working on composable films for a long time, but we're just getting to the point where scale makes sense and we're getting enough, um, companies interested in using the product. So the volume is growing. And when you get more business is when you can start thinking about how you go to business differently and, um, being able to leverage. Volume in a different way. So it'll be exciting to see how things change even in the next five years from now too. So I want to go back to, um, we talked about the barrier of the film and we talked a little bit about metalized compostable film, so I get a lot of questions like, well, if it's metalized, it certainly isn't compostable. So maybe we could swing back to kind of the nerdy details around. Okay. What is really compostable and why is metalized film compostable?

Christopher Tom:

Sure. So, um, so the metallized nature flex or cellophane, what it is basically, it's just a clear, it's our clear cellophane that's vacuum metallized on one side with with aluminum particles, which are, it's a very, very, very thin layer, you know, it's just atoms thick, you know, and it's only vacuum metallized on one side. So it gives the appearance that it's

Dave Craggan:

That's a natural element,

Christopher Tom:

And aluminum aluminum comes from the earth, it comes from alumina, if you want to get really tech nerdy and technical, comes from alumina, which comes from the earth. Um, so, so the film, like I said, while it looks like a foil, it's not a foil, it's just, it's just a, a, a cellophane that's been vacuum metallized on one side. And it's fully compostable, both home compostable, industrial compostable. And it doesn't leave any, you know, ecotoxic, you know, nasties in the ground, no heavy metals. It's totally safe. You know, you could regrow plants, regrow, you know, uh, it's, you know, vegetables and stuff and eat them. You'll be safe. It's, there's totally, totally safe. Pretty

Chris J. Tyra:

I've got a little show and tell Jessica to to add on to what Chris is saying, because I think it's important for people to see it. Right? So we did this little experiment. We have this company called Alter Eco that makes these nice little round, amazing tasting truffles. that they wrap their truffles in our metalized film. And that's all it is. It's a mono layer. It's printed on one side. Um, but this is, this is an example. I took one, a bunch of their little truffle, um, uh, wrappers and I just put them in my soil, in my raised beds. And this was about three weeks and I labeled it A4 I did A5, A6, A7. Anyway, you can see within three weeks. This is one half that was sitting on my desk, and this is the half that was in the soil, and I just buried it. This part was sticking out, uh, but the rest of it, as you can see, is gone in three weeks. And it's metalized. How about that? So,

Jessie Schwartz:

fantastic. Well, like you said, it's like a, it breaks down to a molecular small atomic, um, particle in, in, in the earth versus it's not actually metal going into the ground. And like you also said, when you get BPI certification, you have to be able to grow plants in the soil that's created and it can't, um, It can't create any kind of dangerous substance in the plant, right? So you can't like, Oh yeah, the corn grows, but also you'll die if you eat the corn. So it has to be, you know, bio neutral or you can't impact. Future generations.

Christopher Tom:

Right. Chris, Chris, I think Chris grew some corn from that soil. Chris, did you eat, eat that corn yet?

Chris J. Tyra:

I, I didn't, but I would, absolutely. Because it's, it's, it's BPI certified, and they do all that ecotoxicity testing in the soil. So,

Jessie Schwartz:

Cool. So, um, uh, I also hear questions around, okay, we've got this compostable film, so why can't I just print all the brilliant graphics on it that I want to, and just fill the whole thing with ink? Um, so let's talk a little bit about inks and how they differ in the compostable space and some of the, um, some things you can do, some things you can't. Let's talk about inks.

Christopher Tom:

So, um, so the rule with, um, with BPI is that, um, all the, the constituents such as the inks cannot exceed, cannot be more than one percent of the weight of the package. Um, and the sum total of all the inks And the adhesives, uh, cannot exceed 5 percent of the weight of the package. And this is, you know, um, you know, if the inks are, because most inks that are used are not compostable. There are some that are solvent based or some that are water based, you know, so you don't want to leave, you know, you want, you want the, the, um, the plant regrowth, you want to minimize the, um, chances of plant ecotoxicity, you know, leaving heavy metals. So that's why they have that rule to minimize the amount of inks, and or adhesives that you put in the package. Um, you know, like there are some compostable adhesives. Um, there are some compostable inks, but the inks, the inks is a trickier part is finding an ink. That'll work. That'll, that'll, you know, that you'll have good ink adhesion to the substrate. So, um, it's a little bit trickier for the inks. But if you, if you respect the 1 percent 5 percent rule, then you'll be fine.

Dave Craggan:

probably worth pointing out as well, you know, with the ink suppliers that we know, you know, and there is always further evolution of, technology in packaging and we're seeing more and more, um, offerings of compostable inks from some of our co suppliers. And also the fact that, uh, we had brushed over the, uh, high receptivity to inks that are cellulose based products. Thanks. have. So, uh, typically you will see our material used in a, uh, multi layer structure as the print web because of the outstanding graphics that you can print on our film.

Jessie Schwartz:

And then, okay. So give us an idea then if let's say we had a pouch and we wanted to put full graphics on it, are we saying that, are you guys saying that you, you wouldn't be able to cover that whole pouch with. Um, with inks, like when you say 1%, that gets a little bit, sometimes it's confusing because you're like, well, how much does this pouch weigh? Or can you give an idea of percentage of like coverage that, that people could expect to get? Um, is it more just printing your brand? And so actually belongs in a carton or something, cause all you can do is kind of print your logo on the bag. You can't really get all the necessary information or say more about that.

Dave Craggan:

I think we could give an example of an actual commercial product that has BPI, uh, certification and, uh, Both Chris and Christopher are familiar with this, this company. Um, coffee bag. So, um, it is a, a coffee bag. I believe it's a 12 ounce bag of coffee, either grounds or beans, depending on how they package and how they're, they're offered, but, um, it is, I believe a three color print job with black, white, and some red, and that package is covered from top to bottom, front to back in inks, uh, black ink primarily with a little bit of white and a little bit of red and. does actually pass the BPI certification.

Jessie Schwartz:

That's great to know.

Dave Craggan:

gents? Anything to add to that, I guess, is, you know, should we

Christopher Tom:

Yeah, I mean, like, um, typically with, with printing, you know, you're dealing in, um, it's process colors, right? So, so you're, you're just combining, you know, different inks to create, you know, certain colors and graphics. So, so that's, you know, 1 way where, you know, you can perhaps not, not go past that 1 percent is if you're, if you're combining, you know, cyan, magenta, yellow, black, or whatever. What are the pantone colors you have? Um, Combining those colors to get the desired graphics and then without surpassing that 1%.

Dave Craggan:

Now, I would also offer that we have a, our European partners. Um, we do have a end use application for cheese wrap, cheese over wrap. Um, it's a monolayer of nature flex. It does have a six color print and that is certified compostable as well. So you point. And I think the important point, all this is that. You can again, you know, replace a, a, um, a single use plastic with a compostable version of, of material without sacrificing performance. Yeah,

Jessie Schwartz:

image on the shelf. Okay.

Dave Craggan:

exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Chris J. Tyra:

And that is, if you know your, you, your, your goal is to, if thi if this is an end user, um, obviously, you know, you talk to your packaging converter and you know, they should be knowledgeable if you're going to them for a compostable package. They should be knowledgeable of what they need to do to get this tructure to pass. And like David, David mentioned before about pre laminate, you know, films that you know, that are fully certified, that are out there on the market right now too. Um, but, you know, if the ultimate goal is to be BPI certified, um, for industrial, uh, and then there's other certifications for home composting. And in the industrial composting, the BPI, you know, if that's your goal, then yeah, you've got to abide by all these things and make sure you, um, you know, mind your P's and Q's when it comes to design and working with your, um, your, your converter partner, uh, to make sure that it does pass all those things. Uh, there's some people that, that want to have, uh, some kind of message, but they don't necessarily want to go the certification route right away. They want to just test it out in the market and see how. So they're, they're, they're, um, consumers are to that and, and, and they may not get certification right away. And then, you know, that type of thing, you know, you're not necessarily tied to all those things, but eventually if you want to get there, you need to meet that. But, um, you know, there's, so there's, you gotta keep all these design things in mind when you're, when you're saying, okay, what's the end goal of, compostable package and replacing a single use plastic for, you know, what's our, what, what do we want to accomplish with that.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah. And that kind of goes into the next topic of the end of life and what happens to, um, the film. So we have the industrial compostable side of things, um, and industrial compostable, they're controlling the heat, they're turning the pile, they're making sure that you're getting enough oxygen. So that. The aerobic, um, metabolisms of the microbes can, can continue on, um, and, and more and more people I think are getting concerned about litter, um, and to somewhat, to some degree in the U. S., but also abroad where maybe the waste collection isn't, um, as reliable or does not exist. And so some compostable, um, materials. I mean, they'll break down faster than plastic will in the environment. Um, but I see a shift to different organ companies offering backyard compostable solutions too. So, um, sometimes people are confused that they can't just take a BPI certified compostable product and just put it in their compost heap and think it'll um, disappear, um, quickly. Um, but then there's also this, this new space opening up around backyard compostable. So do you know, like you can talk a little bit about the differences between the two and where you guys see that, um, fitting in with Futamura?

Christopher Tom:

okay, so the thing about, um, like people get a misconception about home composting. Like you said, they think that you could take a, like a, whatever, a BPI certified package and throw it in their compost heap and it'll go away. Okay. Um, and it's a little bit more, um, complicated than that, nuanced than that. First of all, um, you know, the structure needs to be, like, TUV certified for, like, okay, home compost. So that needs to be home compostable, right? Because some industrially compostable, um, products will not, will not compost in a home composter. Secondly, with, with home composting, and I know this because I used to home compost, um, it's, it's, it's an actively managed process. Um, process it's like, uh, an industrial composter, but on a much, much smaller scale, you know, you need to turn it. You need to make sure there's enough moisture in there. You know, you need to have the right carbon to nitrogen balance. So it's an active process. So, even if you take a, a, a, like a home compostable structure. And you throw it in your compost, you still need to do all those things that they do on a larger scale in an industrial composter. And then the other aspect of that is like, You know, like we, as, as a company and, you know, as, as, as I guess, um, civic minded people, we don't advocate, you know, throwing stuff out into the streets, you know, um, however, you know, worst case scenario, if, if our packaging does end up, you know, somehow in the streets or not in a lot, you know, not in a place where it's supposed to be, it will eventually go away as opposed to plastic packaging, which will stick around for, you know, 500 to 1000 years and leave microplastics.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's kind of the, the accidental something blows away. Um, it's going to disappear and break down into the

Dave Craggan:

We like to say if it blows away, it goes away. that

Jessie Schwartz:

Nice. Nice.

Dave Craggan:

haven't trademarked that one yet, but it's one of many that are in the,

Jessie Schwartz:

Now it's out in the world, so look out.

Dave Craggan:

it's it's it is out in the world. Yes.

Chris J. Tyra:

And, you know, in the U. S., you know, we, we have this problem with, with plastic pollution, but if, if you compare that with other parts of the world, and David goes to other parts of the world a lot, and he takes pictures and notes this on a regular basis, that, you know, um, some of the developing countries have a much worse plastic pollution problem than us, you know, and, um, so this is not just a U. S. problem, it's a global problem. You know, thing that we have to address. And we're doing our small part, um, to manufacture films that can replace some of that. You know, we're not going to be the, the total solution to, um, any type of plastic pollution and it's, you know, it's, it's, and it's a multifaceted solution, right? It's, it's across government agencies, it's across education of consumers, it's across, you know, having the infrastructure in place, it's having the commitment by companies and, um, and brand owners to, to get there. Um, so we're here and we're ready for them when they're ready to make a decision, I think. Um, you know, and so that's, uh, but it's, and it's, it's a global problem. And, um, you know, like I said, we're, we're here to solve a, a small piece of it for now.

Dave Craggan:

Chris brings up a good point, you know, it's that it's it's the solution part. And, you know, we, we like to think that sustainability when it comes to packaging is is a three legged stool right where you have composable reusable recyclable and if any one of those legs of that stool. Um, are removed, then, you know, you lose balance and it's not going to be supported. So having all three of those are important, right? And the, you know, regardless of where you travel, um, domestic or international, the lack of infrastructure is the biggest concern that probably all of us should have when it comes to what do we do with all the packaging waste that we generate? Because even in, you know, I've lived in a. Pretty large city that did not offer recycling where I had to drive it a mile and a half from my house to actually deliver it. Um, you know, how many people are going to commit to doing that on a regular basis? It almost becomes somebody else's problem at that point, right? And then there is the more rural areas where that infrastructure doesn't exist. And what happens to materials that, um, Don't find they'll find their final resting place, you know, in those situations. So infrastructure is a huge part of the problem, regardless of, of where, however, you know, we do know that there is reality, that there is what escapes as Chris was saying, and what happens to that material when it escapes. And thankfully, ours can go away in a safe manner, just like Chris's planter at home, right? That wasn't a home composable environment.

Jessie Schwartz:

Specifically around the infrastructure that's necessary to really, I mean, take compostable packaging back to the earth, right. And have, um, kind of this neutral, um, end of life story. So, um, the last data I saw was, Somewhere around 3 percent of people living in this country, in this developed country have access to, uh, curbside compostable collection. And so like, where do you, where do you guys see this industry going even in the next three to five years? Cause certainly I mean, we're at the lowest we'll ever be, right. And like the hope is that that will increase to some

Dave Craggan:

you know, I'll let the guys also, um, add to to anything that I may miss. But we're learning a lot from Europe and the steps that they're taking. We're seeing a really Um, a lot of momentum building on adoption of policy in, in the UK, that is working and what may not be working, there's adjustments being, uh, made in adoption of legislation that's happening over here. So it's, it's both, it's, you've got companies that are actually making their own sustainability choices to say, we want X, Y, and Z for our packaging. And then there's also at the state level where we hear, okay, we're going to make changes. related to packaging and how it's affecting, uh, the environment. So with that, you know, there's the evolution of extended producer responsibility laws that we see building momentum here in the U S I think we're at five right now, um, and, and growing. So as that continues to happen, um, there's, there's going to be more of a, um, an awakening And an awareness of, okay, how do we become a lot more fluid in the process of finding a package that we can feel good about to know that it's meeting the regulations that have been set and also can provide a protection to the products we're offering to our consumers as well as shelf life and reduction of food waste.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, it really seems like we're at a good point. Yeah. right now for changes to start in the, in the, especially in the food and beverage industry. I think even a few years ago, we didn't have, um, the necessary barrier structures, um, the throughputs on, you know, manufacturing equipment, uh, the baggers and, and things were a lot slower. And so everything costed more, not just the material, but everything else. Um, and so kind of where we are now is. Um, is, is, is a much better place. Can you guys say a little bit more about the cost of like, if, if folks are thinking about cellulose based films, compostable films, um, something about what they could anticipate from a material standpoint and then from an operation standpoint in their plants, um, how does, how does cellulose film run through equipment and then kind of on the, the front end of that sourcing piece, how it relates to, compares to, um, plastics? Thanks.

Dave Craggan:

say on a. level, I'll let the guys maybe talk a little bit more in the micro, but on the macro level, it goes back to the conversation of, okay, what kind of application are we talking about? If we are thinking about an application where it's a monolayer cellophane, that is in a straight. Forward print application. Um, we're going to be very competitive with, uh, the traditional plastic pricing. I would say that right off the bat, that we can be very competitive there. you start to get a little bit more, uh, pricey is when you do start to look at the laminations of other substrates. And that's where, um, some of the challenges come in. However, um, my, my take on, on cost. Always ties back to end of life in one way or another. So, and this is, this is a reality of right. The cost of, of, of the compostable material, cellophane or cellulose based PLA or a recyclable plastic. What's the, there's an initial cost, right? Chris and Chris and I, we talk about this all the time. There's a, there's that initial cost of manufacturer extruding a absolutely. What is the cost of, of Collection and having it sorted at a recycling center and have it regenerated into another piece of plastic that is to then be recycled again. And so when you, if we were to say that the life cycle of a reusable, uh, plastic material is four X, Do you then take that first time cost and multiply it by four to say that's what your true cost of that plastic is, right? So when you look at the two comparatively, I would say maybe there's not going to be a whole lot of difference when it comes to end of life.

Jessie Schwartz:

Right.

Chris J. Tyra:

And if you look at, if you look at the history of our product, right, it's cellophane, traditionally cellophane. Uh, it was the first packaging material. It took us from the, from the general store to the grocery store back in the 1900s. Um, it was the main source of flexible packaging back in the day. Uh, plastic came around and replaced it because plastic is cheaper and it always has been. Um, and it, you know, you look at comparable prices of cellophane versus plastic back in the 60s and we've done this study and it's exactly the same difference as it is today. So it's, you know, it's, it's not ever going to change. Um, but what needs to change is the perception of, you know, what, what do you, you know, for example, with certain type of recycling methods and there's going to be recycling methods out there that are going to be more expensive. You know, it's more expensive for a, a non virgin plastic than a virgin plastic. It's much cheaper to go and just keep keep funneling virgin plastic into the pipeline versus, you know, the recycling. There's a, there's a cost that goes up and up and up with recycled resins. Um, you know, and then you got to compare that with our film as well. And so, so there's that. Um, but just in, in, in general. Um, you know, like Dave was saying, you know, it's you got to look at the whole life cycle of the product and where does it fit and where does it fit into your company's goals in terms of, um, where you want to be, you know, and if it's if it's adding a couple cents to a candy bar, you know, are people really going to care? You know, but, you know, who's going to care is, you know, maybe the Walmart buyer who doesn't want that, those two cents added on to the, to the candy bar to sell in the Walmart, you know? So there's, there's a lot of things that go into the decision making around it. Infrastructure, like we talked about is one, but there's a whole nother slew of other complicated financial things that people consider when they make the switch.

Jessie Schwartz:

And I think as EPR rolls out, however, it does, I mean, the idea is the materials that cause less impact and the less material that you can get by using, there's an incentive around that. So hopefully, um, that's a good thing and, um, can kind of help usher in the next generation of packaging materials that, uh, ultimately produce less waste. So. thank you. Thanks everybody for joining. Um, anything else you, you feel like you missed that you wanted to mention before we wrap up?

Dave Craggan:

Sure. Just as far as, um, inquiries, right? So we are, we are a global company. We are the world's largest manufacturers of cellulose films. We have a global footprint. We have manufacturing in the U. S., the U. K., in Japan. We're over 2, 000 employees strong. Operating in all the markets that Chris had mentioned. Um, so, uh, proof. Concepts, something that we love and take a more recent example. We've talked about the evolution of packaging. We like to maybe compare this one to the first person who broke the five minute mile, right? There was something that could never have been done or had never been done. Breaking a five minute mile running was, was an impossible task. But then once it was actually done. It was a repeated, um, uh, uh, barrier that was broken, right. As far as multiple people, uh, exceeding the five minute or, you know, running the five minute mile in less time with that, putting liquids into a composable. Structure was something that was unheard of just a few years ago. Not only have we had a company do it successfully. Recently, we now have multiple companies that are also working on putting their products. I know we can think of a liquid in a pharmaceutical application, a pharmaceutical veterinary application, um, home food meal kits to, uh, condiments to detergents. So if you think about, you know, okay, well, there's limitations to compostable materials. That's pretty compelling in terms of there's, the limitations are fewer and fewer than what they used to be. So we're really encouraged by that type of innovation that we see people with our materials.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah. It's definitely an exciting time. Thank you. Thank you for all you had to share today. And um, if you have any further questions, there will be contact information in the show notes. Thanks

Chris J. Tyra:

Great,

Jessie Schwartz:

Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. If you found the content helpful, please be sure to share your comments with me by leaving a review so that I can keep the topics coming your way. If you haven't already followed me, click subscribe on your podcast app. So you get notified the next time we release a show. If you have packaging issues, you want to talk about contact us via our website at www.strategicpackagingpartners.com and click on the contact us page. Thanks everyone.