The Packaging Therapist

Native Sustainability: Turning Waste Into Revenue Streams, with Megan Dobratz

• Jessie Schwartz • Season 1 • Episode 16

Share episode

Are logistics and sustainability hurdles blocking your organization's progress? 

In this episode, Jessie Schwartz sits down with Megan Dobratz from Native Sustainability to explore innovative solutions for overcoming these challenges. In this conversation, you'll learn:

  • The role of organizations like Second Harvest in streamlining transportation and storage for perishable goods.
  • How industrial composting advancements are revolutionizing waste management despite existing complexities.
  • The impact of technological progress on food recovery and overall sustainability efforts.
  • Strategies for improving communication within organizations to enhance sustainability initiatives.
  • The importance of starting with small, actionable steps to foster momentum in achieving your sustainability goals.

Tune in to gain insights and practical advice on navigating the intersection of logistics, sustainability, and packaging efficiency.

Connect with us: www.StrategicPackagingPartners.com
Jessie Schwartz - jessie@stratpackpartners.com
Connect with Megan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megan-dobratz-leed-ap-58b0a85/
Check out Native Sustainability: https://www.nativesustainability.com/

If you love our content and want to learn more about the packaging industry, hit SUBSCRIBE!

Connect with us: www.StrategicPackagingPartners.com
Jessie Schwartz - jessie@stratpackpartners.com

Jessie Schwartz:

Welcome to the Packaging Therapist Podcast. I am your host, Jessie Schwartz. I've been a packaging engineer for 20 years and currently the founder of Strategic Packaging Partners, where we are obsessed with creating strategic approaches to packaging to enable growth and cost savings in the CPG industry. My goal in this podcast is to discuss hot topics in the packaging space to enable you to make strategic decisions for your business that impact the bottom line and take the chaos out of manufacturing. Join us for technical discussions about packaging and let's make the world of manufacturing better together. Hi everyone. Today I am joined by Megan Dobrotz from Native Sustainability. Welcome to the show, Megan.

Megan Dobratz:

Thanks for having me.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, we're excited to talk. So tell us a little bit about Native Sustainability and kind of how you got here and some of the clients that you're helping.

Megan Dobratz:

Yeah. Great. Uh, native sustainability. We're 10 years old. We just celebrated that this summer. Um, we are a strategic consulting firm. We say that we're, uh, we really approach things with the creative lens. We are really, uh, Focus on communication and collaboration. We work with a lot of mid sized organizations. Um, we tend to actually, in the last couple of years have been really drawn to what we call complicated systems. Um, so. Businesses and organizations that are really diverse in what they do from both producing materials to running multiple different sectors of business, um, with kind of quasi governmental structures to, uh, Food and egg, um, small, small kind of regional producers, medium sized producers, but a whole gamut. Um, our focus tends to be on waste, but we say we know enough to be dangerous in all of the categories and that's where a lot of the collaboration comes in is working with other, you know, Consultants, other people in the industries, if we need extra help on, say, super detailed energy efficiency work or implementation of renewables, or like, in this case, help guidance on packaging solutions and ideas. So really helping people with wherever they're at in their sustainability journey. So, either developing programs and seeing them through implementation. Implementation, excuse me, or helping just recognizing some areas that could use a little bit more focus sometimes serving as a fractional CSO in a way of looking at that kind of overall level and identifying ways to take some steps and improvements.

Jessie Schwartz:

That's fantastic. So let's talk a little bit about waste. So where do you guys focus in terms of, um, reducing waste? And I, and I love that you're after waste because that's a very clear benefit. Um, it translates into data and everybody loves data. So say a little bit about where the waste, like if you think about um, produce for example, say a little bit about, there's tons of waste in that supply chain, right? Inherent to just having fragile products to work with. So say a little bit about that. Tell us a story. Mm

Megan Dobratz:

Yeah, so that's produce is a great example. Um, we have worked with a customer who produces on a regional level, um, and wants to stay at that level due to keeping freshness and, um, just really having that shorter supply chain. But as you mentioned, A very delicate thing as quick spoilage and, you know, our desire for perfection. And so we have engaged with them to both help find ways to reduce waste in general, but then find opportunities for kind of that midline section where they do a great job of getting all of their high, you know, top quality stuff out to stores really quickly. They do a great job of food rescue through, um, a couple of different local organizations. Um, but then there's that kind of third line of really still usable product, but. With that desire for perfection, we're trying to identify areas of, can there be dried options or sauces or, you know, that sort of level of processing a little further, even though the quality is great, but making it into a third product. So that's a way to both look at waste reduction, but also, Adding value to what is currently their waste stream. So that's kind of another detailed focus of what we do is taking waste into what was considered waste and creating an asset out of it. Also opportunities in that sector to look at what could be used with both the growing medium as well as stocks and vines and leaves and that sort of stuff. Where now in the nutraceutical sources, um, There's a way to extract some more of those, you know, polyphenols or like being are, you know, any of those concentrated things that can that often can be more concentrated outside of the fruit and in the actual, um, vines and leaves of products. So looking at ways to monetize. What was considered a waste stream and, um, opportunities there. So that's a really exciting way to look at it. In addition to kind of the traditional waste, um, traditional way of looking at waste consultation of making sure that we're getting as much of the product to the compost stream versus the landfill, um, you know, that piece as well as we do a lot of that kind of traditional access of waste management.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, so it's more about how do we, how can we extract value from this traditional. waste product. And if, if we can't, at least it's going into compost. I remember I volunteered with second harvest and we went through these like a, gajillion totes of apples. they they were rejected by the processer, but there were still a lot of great ones. So then

Megan Dobratz:

Mm hmm.

Jessie Schwartz:

up the great ones, and then we sent the rest to, I think they went to PigFood.

Megan Dobratz:

Yeah. Yeah. Lots of pig farmers. Yeah.

Jessie Schwartz:

yeah, which is fantastic, right? Um, so that, that is great to kind of talk about the produce. I think a lot of people can relate to kind of that, that life cycle. Say more about other areas in food and beverage, especially in manufacturing. So maybe you have like a palette that you need to go through and you know, I don't know if that stuff is subpar, you don't want to sell it. Do you guys get into that space too? Do you get into the, um, you go to manufacturing floor and there's tons of food all over the floor, right? You, you. Something jammed and there's just stuff everywhere. Now we have this waste stream. Um, and then you also think about the product that, um, goes to fire sale, but then it doesn't sell. So now we have food there to like speak a little bit about, um, either how you guys help or ways you see the industry trying to make that waste into something valuable, or at least recover it from. Going down to the landfill route.

Megan Dobratz:

absolutely. I mean, you probably know there's an incredibly high percentage of wasted food of the effort that we put into manufacturing all of this that ends up in situations just like that. Um, the, we have also worked in the past with, uh, industrial compost sites. So we have a lot of great connections within the region. We're based out of the twin cities and. There is really great effort happening at some of those industrial compost sites to add what are called deep packagers, which can really process anything outside of glass because glass is the devil when it comes to compost because it's making a finished product that you really want to have your hands in, right? So having glass in there is not ideal, but everything else, from aluminum to plastics can go through these processing equipment, and it somehow magically separates the packaging from that food waste. So it allows all of that material that would have gone into the landfill because it is intensive to, to touch these things, how many different times and then gets expensive. So there are several different sites around the region that either have that capacity or adding it in short order, which will really make a great impact, um, for that because it, you know, the second harvest is an incredible job of really redistributing a vast majority of things. And especially we're hearing more and more now of sell by versus best by versus actually spoiled. You know, we, we kind of made up these, these names that people don't really understand exactly what they said. And so there's obviously health concerns attached to that, and we want to be really smart about it. But. These new pieces of equipment and the growth of industrial composting in general has allowed more of that material to at least be recovered into the compost stream, which is great. The more we can get into humans to eat and animals to eat the better, but this is at least allowing us to avoid that landfilling

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, that makes Well, I think the financials of all these sustainability objectives are really tricky, right? So we have conversations all the time with companies that want to move to a recyclable film, for example, and then they're okay with absorbing the extra costs, but then they try running this product on their lines and it's running. 10 to 15 to 20 percent slower. And so then that's an impact of COGS, right? And then maybe you'll lose a little bit of shelf life and then maybe, you know what I mean? There's just like all, all these impacts to the financials of the business. And it makes it tricky to, to make choices that will ultimately either drive your revenue, even a tighter margins, or it's something you pass on to your customers or your consumers on at shelf. And what's exciting about some of this technology. Where we talk about whether, whether it's, um, getting films that are better or at the end, like what you're talking about is machines that separate the food waste from the packaging because that's how we drive the cost down and that's how we implement more of these solutions in general. Um, and so what, what are you seeing in the market right now in terms of what trade offs are people making in the packaging space? Or the food waste space. I mean, it's all kind of tied together. Um, how are people thinking about investments? Cause it's investments in sustainability, because this is like, it's rapidly developing and every couple of months it's completely different is what I'm finding.

Megan Dobratz:

Yeah. Well, and the markets change, right? I mean, our recycling system 10 years ago, the majority of things. You know, we went from keeping things stateside to everything going to China to then, you know, the national sword policy where they didn't want our stuff because we went away from single stream recycling, which then just turned on wish cycling. And so everyone just figures, Oh, they'll figure it out at the site. Right. But even though our, our MRFs are material recovery facilities. Are really incredibly smart. It doesn't necessarily mean that they can handle all of these different layers. And so I think there's a really interesting, you know, challenge with producer responsibility down to consumers. And, you know, the consumers kind of want the producers to figure it out. Cause they can't stay on top of everything. But I think, I think you mentioned, you know, to your point, There's companies who want to change their packaging. They want to lesser their impact. But what does that mean across the entire supply chain? So the way that we approach this work, too, is to really look at it from a super high level and to understand the entire stream, because it might cost more on the front end. But if they're having to dispose of things on the tail end, And looking at the cost of waste recovery, at least in the Twin Cities market, compost is processed tax free, as is recycling, where traditional landfill materials, you're going to have a statewide tax on that, and then each county has a different tax as well. There is a county in the region that it's a 70 percent tax at the end for landfill rates. So. They're sometimes cost to be covered on the tail end, right? But if it's just, uh, to consumer, then that gets a little squishy because they're not handling as much. But I think a lot of it is identifying the main driver of the, why they want to do it, whether it's. increased recyclability of their product or compostability, but then knowing that industrial composting is only available in certain markets. And so do they want to invest in switching all of their products to something that then wouldn't end up in the right spot in the tail end? And so,

Jessie Schwartz:

like 3 percent of Americans have access to curbside compost pickup

Megan Dobratz:

right. And then

Jessie Schwartz:

good decision, you know?

Megan Dobratz:

Yeah, and I, and I know a previous guest of yours touched on this as well of, you know, there's, there's not really a ton of value in compostable disposables. So it's a, it's a vessel to get the good stuff that they want, the food waste, but just sending stacks and stacks of compostable hot cups. It's not going to do anything for the compost stream. So there's a really a big trade off. I would say one of the trends, um, that we're seeing is, you know, this desire to go back to reusables. You know, you think of the milkman of what we used to do in that regard, but that has so many other complications. So I think the main thing we see, which you understand is it is really complicated. It's not just a flip the switch and use the switch. this instead of that. The there's space concerns, t fit on a pallet? What is is the weight different? I'm I'm really an environ but I also understand the Plastics super lightweight now, and it can be shipped in small and blown out on site if it's a bottle. And so there really is that question of what is your motivation? Is it decarbonization? Is it waste reduction? Is it, you know, when you look at a single use plastic bottle, when it comes to waste reduction, if it's empty, It's not a lot of weight there. And so waste is tracked and the metrics are tracked on tonnage. And so if that's what your main goal is, having that focus is really not going to move the needle at all. So it's, it's a really big challenge to look at that overall. What are the desired improvements and how we're going to get there. Right.

Jessie Schwartz:

of packaging we're looking across procurement operations quality logistics and there's tons of money to be saved in um, Getting the right size Getting the packaging the right size getting the most you can on a pallet if you're not weighing out the truck And getting the machines to just run As smoothly as possible The packaging machine interface and so for us we can build sustainability stories on Material savings time savings waste reduction if you're running the right packaging Um, and that for me, I like those stories because they're they're very straightforward, right? It's again. It's a data piece so, um In in your space. So there's all kinds of um legislation coming out You Right. I mean, you talk about day codes with California, like trying to eliminate them. I mean, I don't, there's just, it's just total chaos and with EPR coming out and with every state having different laws and rules and regs, um, I don't know. I don't know what the bottom is for revenue in terms of who has to be paying into the EPR. Do you know what that is yet? Do you have

Megan Dobratz:

I don't. I was just looking in. So Minnesota passed where I think we're the fifth state now to then roll out an E. P. R. Bill. Um, that starts kind of wheels in motion in January of 2025. But there it will. It's a decent runway to get there. But part of it is being a part of a coalition. So I don't know if they know all of the details yet. Honestly, I think it's just, you know, the understanding that we need to do something and get somewhere. And part of that is the state has a goal of 75 percent um, diversion rate from the landfill by 2030, I believe. Um, and we're nowhere close to that. And I think it's now like, okay, well, what on earth are we going to do to get there? And so it's taking those steps to start to figure that out. I mean, that the EPR in Minnesota is not going to really move that needle because the time that all of this kind of unfolds will be. You know, within the next several years. And so I don't know if the drastic impacts will come there, but yeah, I think that it's, I don't know. And that's, what's so interesting is people keep asking us like, well, what is, how is this going to impact us? And I'm like, I'm not sure yet. Cause I don't think we know. Um, but the money has to come from somewhere. Right.

Jessie Schwartz:

right. Yeah. And what I, what we, the message that we keep hearing and giving at the same time is for your organization, do something, just start some momentum. I mean, it's a lot easier to, um, steer a car in a different direction if you have some momentum behind it, then try to make it move and without having any momentum. And. Um, and we also talk to a lot of contract manufacturers who are hearing from their customers, like these different, um, responses to corporate goals, because everyone's trying to establish goals and then hold everybody accountable around them. But the goals really aren't based on clear direction of where they need to go and how they're going to get there, right? It's kind of the how piece that isn't really well defined. But at the same time, we can't just say, well, we don't have the how to find, so we're not going to have goals, right? And what we're seeing a lot is if the contract manufacturers can just take a look at their system. Like, what lines are running less than 80 percent efficient? What, um, how much waste are you seeing? Do you have obsolete packaging? Start looking into the areas of the organization where you're losing money, quite frankly, and fix those problems and then make sure that you're capturing the data on the back end, um, regarding what kind of waste you are able to reduce and, um, Be able to build, start building, um, plans around that. So if you've been able to reduce your plastic usage by 3 percent because you've consolidated structures, great

Megan Dobratz:

Right.

Jessie Schwartz:

it. Maybe you can get another 3 percent next year, or maybe you moved to corrugate or do you try to get 3 percent there? Um, That's kind of how we try to get people thinking inviting this off in small pieces so that it's not super overwhelming and um Doesn't end up costing them a ton of time and money. It's just kind of you're rolling with it Right and just collecting as you go along. Um, how how do you guys approach? the same issue in in your way

Megan Dobratz:

Yeah, I think your point, you know, it's, we, we say that we work in waste and it's not just solid waste, right? A lot of what we do is efficiency work to your point. And that's, you know, we look at these big goals, which honestly, in my opinion, were kind of established without a baseline. It was just a, here's where we're going to need to be, but with really no sense of where we were starting from and identifying the how to your point. So I think there is a bit of a scramble right now to see. We're still trying to figure out that how I have another client that, um, we have the same goal as the state with the 75 percent reduction. We're also struggling, um, to figure out how to do that. And we have put a lot of time and effort into and finances into doing. Waste audits and full waste characterizations to really try to figure out where that opportunity Is but a lot of it to your point is finding those efficiencies and that's a great role as a consultant To come in and say oh if you just kind of tweak these areas You'll get that and then get the cost savings in addition to the material savings and then at least we know Okay, we're running as smooth as we can Now let's start to take that step to find the other opportunities for improvement. Um, it's not always super easy. I also said, I should also have a degree in psychology because all we do is go in and ask people to change, right? Like I know this is what you've been doing and it's been working, but what if we, so it's, I think it's identifying the champions who also, you know, people want to do their job. Well, I think that's really, and it's like, if they can also get the credit for helping to find these improvements, that's great. Um, so it is, it's a really interesting challenge to face and to be a part of finding those solutions. But really, I think, to your point, like, efficiency is really. A really great first approach and then exactly pivoting from there and seeing, okay, what's next and possible,

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah.

Megan Dobratz:

having that momentum of proof that things can be done.

Jessie Schwartz:

Exactly and then if you find efficiencies and you're able to save money Then that's also a way you can fund some of these more innovative solutions if you're going to Need new equipment to run a paper tray instead of a plastic one or whatever Um, and I think a lot of organizations are seeing sustainability as just overall It's going to cost me and they're just scared of it. And the reality is that's not the case for most for most companies There most companies have a lot of runway when it comes to building in You And achieving efficiencies and manufacturing.

Megan Dobratz:

the other thing there, you know, with, uh, it's a company we mentioned is that there's opportunity to, to look at that broader perspective. In like the ESG three legged stool of there's the people, the planet and the profit, right? So there's, if, especially when we're coming, talking about food production, if we can divert more to food, you know, all of a sudden there's a good social story to be told of either we're donating more or we're finding a new avenue to support a small producer with our thirds or, you know, like however you want to talk about it. But I think, um, I think it's how we communicate this work as well and how we pull the successes back into the supply chain. You know, like I said, we go in and we ask people to change, and I don't think we do necessarily a great job of telling them their success and getting people excited that, Oh, actually we did this. And we got 2 percent reduction. Let's see what else we can find. You know, once people feel like they're part of the solution and feel like they're part of moving that ship, it gets create, you know, and it's like the people that know the people that are doing it the day to day are the ones who are like, well, if we just did this instead, but don't necessarily always have that opportunity to, to speak up and have that opinion. So I think, um, Um, a lot of what we do is also tied to the storytelling of the success and making sure that internally, people know that they are seen, they're appreciated, their ideas are welcome, and that it's actually moving the needle. I think that's an important piece as

Jessie Schwartz:

Okay. So we talked about how if you have packaging or if you have product waste, um, so some of it's like this landfill diversion, but then there's, although also this space of how do we get more of the food to people,

Megan Dobratz:

Mm hmm.

Jessie Schwartz:

animals, sure, but more are along the lines of people. What do you, what What do you think about that network of like the second harvest, for example? Um, do you think a lot of CPG companies are connected with the network of repurposing food or getting it to, getting it to organizations and actually getting it to people, or do you think that network is kind of disconnected or what's going on in that space, um, for producers that are like, well, I don't know, I just send my stuff to the landfill right now. I would like to do something else with it, but I don't know where to start.

Megan Dobratz:

Yeah. I think that's a great, a great question. I think, It depends on what the, what they're producing, right? I feel like more kind of finished consumer packaged goods that are maybe like a cookie or something like that. They think of that, that food rescue connection. I know too well from compost site experience that if it's a single product, right, like let's say corn, often that'll go in bulk to a compost site because. Because a, it's just like, Oh, you know, the compost site loves it because it's a super clean stream, all that sort of stuff. Um, I think the market has changed in the last couple of years in a, in a great way. I think there are new, um, there's new work out there that's not in the CPG space, but in restaurants and grocery stores saying, okay, we have a bunch of Sushi that like You can pay 20 percent for it today and it'll, you know, come pick it up and you can eat it. Right. So it's finding new avenues, but with so much of the work that we do, the biggest challenge. Is logistics and transportation, and it's it has to move today. It has to have a cooler that it can go to. And then how do we get it to the right spot? So, having and that's where I think 2nd harvest and those sorts of organizations and specifically them, they have such a network where they're really that high level logistics partner and they partner with smaller food shelves all over the place because they have the trucks because they have the labor to move. Materials. So I think some of it is education of knowing what's available and who might want this product. Um, a lot of it is geography of, you know, can it get to the right people in the right amount of time? But then also that that storage and that real timeliness of we're dealing with products that often are going to spoil in 3 to 5 days. So then how do we move it? But I think it is also one of those industries that, you know, people, if they're engaged in it and see the impact, they want to do the right thing. It's just kind of. You know, who is, who is bringing them all of the resources available and how to get it there and that's a lot of what we like to do is just to be that person who can say, okay, what do you have? Great. I know. XYZ will take that. They have this capacity. There's now something called meal connect for, um, you know, finished, you. Products that are packaged, but, you know, maybe made in a deli, but then can go out to places and that is a program of second harvest. So there's, there's different things unfolding.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah.

Megan Dobratz:

I think a lot of it is those, those resources in industrial composting and that sort of type, and the ones who will have the deep packagers should they need it. That is still, it's, it's changed a lot in the last 10 years, but there's still. Plenty of material that could be recovered that's out there.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah. And I think as technology gets better and faster and the cost starts going down and the speed starts picking up, that's going to be a game changer. And that goes not only for recovering food for composting, but also the sustainability space in general. I know. Like the compostable film space right now is like the wild west, right? You've got multi layer structures. We're not creating multi layer structures, but we're still to the point where all the multi, all the layers are made by different companies. Right. We're importing stuff where like it, and so it's, um, when people say I want to go to compostable film, it seems like something that we should be able to commercialize right now. Right. Because I don't know, we can land a SpaceX rocket on

Megan Dobratz:

right. Yeah, yeah,

Jessie Schwartz:

but we're still kind of, you know, Kind of evolving in this compulsible film space, for example. And so sometimes it's like, we're so highly technically advanced in so many areas, but not in all areas. And so, um, just kind of getting a grip on what's, what's possible. And then being able to explain back to leadership, the numbers, right. Like in how we, why we can't do something or why we should wait to do something or when we think we could do something. Um, and that, that's kind of a space where you can help as well, because. That takes a lot of time. And if, if you're a packaging engineer or you're fearing somebody in marketing your ops or wherever the sustainability might fall for your organization, it's, it's hard to just go out and start Googling things because it's not really, not really efficient. And also, I don't know, you don't, you don't really start from a place of truth all the time. So, um,

Megan Dobratz:

Well, and I think your point about that of, you know, back to like, what's, what's your main motivation of, you know, those. Having a compostable film like gets me really excited, but then also you're like, yeah, how many, how many places is this traveling from and how much transportation is included in this. And so its ability to not end up in the landfill. Is great. Is the overall impact better, right? So it's, it's, it's complicated. I mean, I think that's just the main thing, right? Is that this is a very complicated system and having all of the right players on board to understand both from design. I mean, I think that's a big thing. And we've talked about that before of like, how can we just design things from the start to maybe be Be less wasteful and not have to figure out, okay, let's change the components so that we know how to process it. But like, how do we just make less stuff in general? Right.

Jessie Schwartz:

yeah, so that's neat. So you guys can help organizations like navigate all of these different avenues because like you said, it is complicated, but I think part of the complicated nature of it is that we have so many diverse types of manufacturing, different, so many different things going on. But once you get into a company, they're kind of doing a lot of the same things within that organization. And probably a lot of the. Themes around sustainability and where they can look for reducing waste in this situation They start they start coming to to focus and like you said earlier You've got a lot of people in your organizations, especially at the plant level who see all these crazy things And I think that's one of the challenges Is that by the time information gets to directors, VPs, um, the C suite, it's been translated several times and you've lost a lot of the detail. And so organizations like ours, organizations like yours, we go in, we go to the ground and we collect all the data and we just zoom it up to the C suite. Right. And we can have these business conversations about goals and objectives. And we can reflect what's actually going on and provide those insights. So I love that. Well, thank you for joining us today, Megan. Any last, uh, thoughts you wanted to share?

Megan Dobratz:

the one other thing I was thinking about was just as we're looking at materials and products and where they are going, we as humans, this goes back to our psychology, have this great understanding of aluminum and that that goes into the recycling. But for some reason, we're not quite there with plastics. And so, and I think it's because we've continued to change the shape, change what's acceptable. It's. acceptable in different regions, depending on the end users, all of that sort of stuff. So we've seen more movement towards, especially in water, um, people wanting to move to aluminum, which can be reused, is easier to read, you know, like all of that sort of stuff has a bigger impact, um, when it comes to shipping and carbon intensity there, but the recyclability of aluminum Is, is greater than plastic in addition to not even just the recyclability, but human behavior of actually recycling it. Right? So I think that's something as just another thing to think of in all of this is and another example of how complicated this stuff can be. Right?

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, absolutely.

Megan Dobratz:

of, you know, human behavior in addition to challenges of development and manufacturing and, and all of

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah. all of this, this whole industry of reclaiming, recycling, it all hinges on the very end of the product life cycle, which is the consumer. And That is, wow, that's a circuit. Like, it's really difficult because you're right that we've created a lot of complexity in packaging in particular, especially in plastics when you've got multi layers, you've got all kinds of different structures, you've got P. E. T. swinging back and forth between a widely recyclable. Um, I had a conversation with somebody the other day, I said, we should just put the number on the label and then have all the garbage haulers just put the label on top of the garbage can of the stuff that they're going to collect and just be done. You know, we've created all this complexity around like trying to tell people, but then if we can't tell people, we'll just tell them we can't tell them. And you're like, no, but there's still a number. Like, you know, this is the information they need, like, you know, not this little microscopic number. But, um, anyway, I mean, everyone's trying their hardest, right? It's just, um. Like you said, it is, it is complicated, but, um, there's a lot of energy in this space now and a lot of focus

Megan Dobratz:

movement. Yep.

Jessie Schwartz:

and trying to kind of guide your organization to a course of, um, the least complexity and chaos and just figuring out something that you can do is easier than creating some goal. You don't think you can achieve and you don't even know how to get there. Um, there's always something you can do to move a little bit. Um,

Megan Dobratz:

And baby steps work. And you know, that's like you said, getting the, getting the ship moving, getting the ball rolling is amazing. And there's, you know, just, you got to start somewhere. So just start for sure.

Jessie Schwartz:

Yeah, and there's resources out there to help you with that. So,

Megan Dobratz:

that's right.

Jessie Schwartz:

thank you.

Megan Dobratz:

Welcome.

Jessie Schwartz:

us

Megan Dobratz:

having me. You're welcome.

Jessie Schwartz:

Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. If you found the content helpful, please be sure to share your comments with me by leaving a review so that I can keep the topics coming your way. If you haven't already followed me, click subscribe on your podcast app. So you get notified the next time we release a show. If you have packaging issues, you want to talk about contact us via our website at www.strategicpackagingpartners.com and click on the contact us page. Thanks everyone.