Theatres of Dreams Podcast: S25:26 - EP 66 "The Final Countdown" 29 May 2026

Dom, Richard and Rod discuss the end of the EPL, Arsenal - deserved champions,  City - satisfied, United - set up for 2026/27, Tottenham - the luckiest team this season and West Ham - bouncebackable??   Also, they discuss European cup final wins for Crystal Palace and Villa and round off the pod with a preview of Saturday's UCL Final.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:24

Well and um this is almost our last one of the long season, guys. Um I've got to ask you, Don, let's just kick off. How are you feeling? Because you it's been an emotional week for a lot of city fans. Not only just the you know, the the the the um the premiership finally being done and dusted for Arsenal, but Pep going. Were you ready for this? Did you expect it?

SPEAKER_07 0:53

Well, it's been emotional. I mean that goes without saying. My algorithms on my phone uh full of little bald men. Um, you know, it's just talking about Bernardo and Pep and John Stones and all this last ten years. I mean, the only blessing is I was I was really quite angry at the beginning that we got only told at the last minute and he didn't like hoodwinged, but I wish I wish we'd had time to think about it and you know be told I don't know Easter or something that this is his final Swan song because I don't believe that that affects the team. I think they were already affected and fundamentally we we can talk about who should win the title, but we didn't, right? So the league the league is the league and that and it never lies type of thing. So but it's been a it's been an incredibly I don't know difficult. I mean, difficult's not paying your rent, but it's it's been a challenging um thing because it's an end of an era, and and and you know, I'll continually say it, you know, being shame shame he lost his last game. Yeah, well that no, but it was absolutely I was there and it was I mean the game was not even worth having, they were in tears before they started. I mean they do really it would it would have been nice to win the game. Honestly, did you not see you look, you probably don't you don't watch much football, Richards you know anyway. So it it it it they were I mean they were just honestly, John John Stones and particularly Bernardo were just in bits and he played I mean it was quite funny actually because John Stones was guilty for both the goals and had a nightmare really as a player, so it reminds you why he's going, but he's been an absolute servant, and it was just it's an end of a most incredible ten years, and all we can ever say is don't be you know, don't be sad, be happy it ever happened.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Yes, you know.

SPEAKER_07 2:38

Um, and what we've experienced, I thought I'd never see anything like it in my life after Mancini. It carried on after Pellegrini, I thought that would be it, and then Pepsi just took it to this level.

SPEAKER_05 2:49

And just reminders, we're talking we're talking 10 years, 20 trophies.

SPEAKER_07 2:54

20 trophies. I mean, all right, community shield is you know, but it's 20, right? It's 17 trophy trophies, but you know, Wembley four times on the trot, how many titles, the formidables, the treble winners, the I mean, honestly, never in my lifetime did I think I'd see an FA Cup. So you know, we'll now see what happens after Pep, you know, like what happened at United with Fergie, because the two of them together are giants of the game. Um Fergie's still got a better record. Um there's there's a I don't really like all the oh well, you know, who's the better manager? It's different eras and different decades.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

Totally agree.

SPEAKER_07 3:37

Do you know what I mean? Sir Alex has got 13 13 titles, so clearly you'd argue that statistically he's still way ahead, but has it been a has it been a tougher era?

SPEAKER_06 3:48

You know, but what's sorry to interrupt this sorry to interrupt this love in, but there is a bit of an elephant there is a bit of an elephant in the room, isn't there? There is there is a little bit of an elephant in the room that Klopp or Alex Ferguson didn't have 115 fair play charges uh waiting in the wings, and maybe that's maybe Mr. Pep Guadiola knows something about that, maybe.

SPEAKER_07 4:12

I didn't realise you were an Arsenal fan. Just a thought. Yeah, but that's what I mean. It's just always look, we're there to be shot at, and we are rent-free in everyone's head, because even now there's been more about Pep than there has about Arsenal winning the title, which is quite ironic, right?

SPEAKER_05 4:28

True.

SPEAKER_07 4:29

Everyone's moved on from that already. Even they've got the they've had a brilliant turnout, didn't they, for their trophy win? But look, you've got to take it for he's changed football in this country, he's won everything. Wherever the finances came from, because we could talk about United and the fact that we all know that they were buying kids when you weren't allowed to buy kids, you know. The the the class of 92, where did they really come from? Don't just you know, don't just give me that they just happened to be in the academy, all of them, right? So there's a lot more to it. They spent all that money when Fergie came and it nearly went wrong. It was 13.2 million, I remember it, in 1989. 13.2 million. That now is like 300 million. So there was all that going on. Money, money's money, but all I can say is I've had a ride and a half, and if it all goes wrong and we go down, I couldn't give two hoots.

SPEAKER_06 5:21

Do you mean go down naturally or go down because of the 115 charges?

SPEAKER_07 5:25

Either. Either. That's what I mean. I'm I'm honestly I might tefl onto it. I've had I've seen things nobody's ever seen with my own eyes in stadiums. It's just like a blade runner. I've been there and seen it, it's been absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_06 5:42

I've seen things that you wouldn't believe.

SPEAKER_07 5:45

Yeah. So it's been it's been amazing. It's been amazing. And I just thank you, Mr. Guariola. And let's see what happens next. Let's see if they can keep the culture. Let's see, you know, that what is going to happen afterwards. Moresca looks like he's a shoe in. Um I'm just really conscious to make sure that we don't lose our DNA because we're losing banana as well.

SPEAKER_06 6:07

Why is this why is it not been announced?

SPEAKER_07 6:10

It's not over the line yet. I think City have handled it overall. In hindsight, I think it's gone well. They did all the parade activity, they did the event in the co-op. Vinny came over, we had Edison, we had Gundo, we had Fernandino in the game.

SPEAKER_05 6:26

You had Holy You had Hollywood A Lester's over as well, didn't you?

SPEAKER_06 6:31

Honestly, it was monumental.

SPEAKER_07 6:32

They did a great, I didn't go.

SPEAKER_06 6:34

Shame they lost the game, Rod. Shame they lost the game.

SPEAKER_07 6:37

It didn't matter. It didn't matter. Honestly, it was I've actually said to the guy next to me, I said we should have just turned up at like five o'clock because it was a non-event in baking heat. But anyway, look, it is what it is. We need to talk about other things as well, but it has been a brilliant chapter in premiership history. And now let's see what happens next.

SPEAKER_06 6:58

And your thoughts, both of you, about in time, God of Honours.

SPEAKER_05 7:03

Oh, well, yes. Um I I gotta say because the pundits didn't like it on match of the day. Yeah, they didn't like it. They didn't like it.

SPEAKER_07 7:13

I I being there, being there, I would say I I I know where they're coming from, but it was a weird last game of the season. Bar West Ham and Tottenham matches, it was a bit of a dead rubber. Oh, and Sunderland. I mean you can talk about that, but it's a bit of a dead rubber. And that Villa game, because obviously Liverpool, it is they were all no one was moving positions, and and it was honestly it was just a weird game. So actually, when it happened, it was just a gracious thing to do at the time. It does might not come across like that, but when you're there and you're a city fan, I suppose, it it was a good move by Villa. Um and you know what, quite a classy club, Villa. I've got you know what I mean, like the hand with the manager and everything, they've had a wonderful season, pound for pound, probably as good as anybody in the league. They've won stuff, they've finished really well, they've got a great manager, they must be delighted. So, you know, they were applauding, some of them stayed for the whole thing. It went on a long time after the game. Um, but you know, I disappeared off to the beach on Bank Holiday Monday with no phone reception and just sat there getting a tan thinking about something else.

SPEAKER_05 8:18

I I think I think I think if if it was that that whole thing had been set up and pre-planned, then I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily agree with it. I am assuming that it was a natural reaction and you know that No, they would they would have been been told about that.

SPEAKER_07 8:35

Yeah, I think it was told. I agree. It does it just happened very organized and they came off, and it was their moment. Like I said, honestly, I can't tell you how little the game was was of any of interest. I've never been to a football match. It was worse than a friendly. Nobody gives two hoots except for Ollie Watkins getting me some goals. Um anyway, look, you know it's gone and done the platform. And yet John Stones has been picked for the England squad over Maguire.

unknown 9:00

Yeah, it must be.

SPEAKER_07 9:01

Yeah, I mean that's an odd one because I just don't know if John's fit enough to be able to cope with the tournament. I agree with that. I don't I'm a city, I'm a city fan, but I would have definitely took Maguire.

SPEAKER_05 9:10

I I'm disappointed for Maguire, but from a United point of view, the less games he plays over the summer coming back fresh for next year, the better. Uh I'm a bit surprised given how well he's performed this year that he isn't in the squad. I would have thought. But then there's other omissions in the squad, which you know we could be surprised about as well. We'll come on to that later on. Let's just talk about the end of the season because Arsenal got it over the line. Um and and and and actually the points difference at the end was what it's about seven points or something different. It was uh and it never looked like it was gonna be like that right up until um two games ago. It was looking a lot tighter. Um and and yet there is this weirdness about them. You know, I think outside of Arsenal, a lot of people turn around saying, Well, were they really that good? They you know they weren't a glamour team. Yes, they're okay. Arteta a bit I don't know, he looks like somebody who isn't even happy that he's won it. He he's I don't know, there's there's something weird about Well, he looks happy on the on Crystal Palace to be fair.

SPEAKER_06 10:23

Did you think so? Yeah, um I think they'll be judged more after Saturday. I think if they find a way to beat PSG, uh I think people say, well, there you go, they've beaten what most people deem as the favourites for Saturday. If they find if they find a way, which Dom has rightly mentioned before, they did, they've beaten PSG at the Emirates, I think, in a in a in a group game. So they know how to do it. Um but if they can they do it on the big night, the big stage? Um I think then we'll see.

SPEAKER_05 10:56

Well let's let's come back to that because we we obviously want to talk about um the the UCL game on Saturday. Weird time, by the way. Uh is it five o'clock? Yeah, I wasn't expecting that. But um let's just talk about the relegation because uh you gotta say uh Tottenham got away with it, and um you know, was was this the the master stroke of bringing in that manager at that time to Serby? Um it felt it feels to me like I'm glad Tottenham stayed up. Um because I think Palace as a club are not as well um West Ham you mean West Ham, sorry, sorry, West Ham as a club are are not as well set up. Um and between the two clubs I couldn't tell if uh who I would have wanted to stay and go down, but um bringing into Serbie, I think, was a master stroke by um by Tottenham. And um, you know, I I assume he'll stay for next season though.

SPEAKER_07 11:53

Oh he's got a c he's got a big contract, it's it's five years. He'll have had a big payout for keeping him up, won't he? Let's let's be honest. I don't know what that was, but he's gonna have been looked after. It's weird, you know, because it all came from they made a real Rick getting rid of Frank's and bringing in the other guy, forgotten his name from Juventus. And actually, and he's this is a terrible thing, really. And Tudor's dad passing away suddenly created this is you know, almost it sounds terrible to call it an opportunity, but do you know what I mean? His poor his poor dad passes away. He then suddenly is needing to go and focus on his family. He's had a nightmare a few weeks, yeah, and he's and they part ways very briefly, quickly, and Deserby then comes in and quite rarely takes applauds because he's got them to calm down and didn't go changing stuff and just went to basic leadership skills, no tactics really, no, you know, just got them at the end of the day. The individual players for Tottenham shouldn't have been in that situation, they they're better than the league said, and ultimately West Ham fundamentally got caught out because they were so poor before Christmas, they did brilliant to catch back up, but at one point, and I called I called them finishing not relegation, but I said rock bottom. Do you remember they were so bad for the first three or four months? They were, I don't think they got hardly any points below Wolves for ages. And then they then they actually had a very good second half season, but the balance of the two together got relegated and they finished with 39 points, which is quite high.

SPEAKER_06 13:22

Yeah, yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_07 13:23

It is quite high. You know, that would stay up normally. So I think unfortunately they just ran out of games and points. But I mean they won the last one 3-0, they were very close to getting something against Arsenal. They never let themselves down. No, they just had a very, very poor first 20 games.

SPEAKER_06 13:40

And I'm quite glad they've kept Nunes, actually. Yeah, I'm quite glad they because you know, um, hopefully he'll get them back up.

SPEAKER_07 13:46

Yeah, but either club going down is a big club. But Tottenham, the reason everyone wanted Tottenham to go down was it was the big story. Let's be true, you know, of the two, no disrespect to West Ham because they are a big club, but to lose Spurs after all these years, who not are not a yo-yo team. West Ham had been a yo-yo team in the past, so it wouldn't have been it's not as as new, whereas Tottenham we've never gone down in in in my life, so that would have been the big gossip, but ultimately they've stayed up the stadium's still in the premiership, and it they're already looking at buying people now.

SPEAKER_06 14:21

The lad from Bournemouth, yeah, Robertson's going there, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 14:24

Robertson, Savinio will probably go there from City. So they will fix that now. And Deserve's a good manager, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:30

And I see I see um uh that um Ariola has been linked with uh Palace.

SPEAKER_07 14:38

That's strange, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 14:39

Very strange.

SPEAKER_06 14:40

No, I've seen I've seen it more he's been linked with by a uh by a lever cousin.

SPEAKER_07 14:45

Today was Crystal Palace, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

Today's BBC is odd palace with on Areola with Lampard among Plan Bs.

SPEAKER_07 14:53

I saw that. I think that can't be the case. How is that an upgrade? Sorry, Palace. I mean, what they've done with two trophies for the first time in their history is magnificent, right? But that team's getting ripped apart. You know, Wharton's bound to go somewhere this summer. Mateta will go. They've already sold all their crown jewels, haven't they? Let's be sure. At least they're not.

SPEAKER_06 15:14

I watched them. I thought it was I thought they played the second half. Amazing that the energy that they've got, and uh they deserve to win the game.

SPEAKER_07 15:21

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 15:22

Well that well, then we can talk about there's there's a topic there, isn't there, lads, which is you know, we've ended up with a brist a brilliant English week.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 15:32

I don't know, I don't know about you, but I think the vast majority of us have been supporting Villa, supporting Palace. Yes, and then we're and and then we're all supporting PSG, which is quite funny. But the but that's that's what's going on, really. Um Villa were great. Villa were great. Yeah, but but have you not noticed that since the Champions League format's changed and the Champions League teams don't drop down, the argument that's been this week is how valid are those tournaments? I mean, it's really unfair to I guess sometimes the press don't help. You know, these guys go and win, and then almost in the same interview at the end of the met the call, you know, Palace win it, and then by an hour after the end of the game, we're talking about well, is it a tournament that matters anymore? You tell them Crystal Palace fans it matters, of course it matters.

SPEAKER_05 16:16

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 16:16

Well, and anyway, it it puts them back into the cup that they felt they should have been in in the first place. Yeah. Do you remember? They were kind of demoted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 16:25

Um yeah, they've been is but it is strange that since it shows the depth of our league that by the Champions League teams not you know the ones who finished bottom going into the Europa, because that doesn't happen anymore. Yes, we now have a situation where the dominance for England is phenomenal. Crystal Palace finished what 16th, did nothing, had a poor season, and they win the cup. Tottenham last year win it against United. They were both in the 16th and 17th. Villa win it, Villa Villa won it at a canter. Palace and Villa were fate. Nottingham Forest were semi-finalists. So you've got English teams who continue to dominate that now because the format means that we always say this, it's tough to win the premiership. The top top boys might not win the Champions League against PSG or Bayern Munich, but the other mid-table German and French teams cannot cope with England's mid-table teams. We're way we're way better, depth-wise, way better.

SPEAKER_05 17:22

Yeah, and I think that's been quite apparent even within the league this year, Don. I don't know. I if I look back at the league, and we're gonna talk about it next week, and when we look at players and all that type of thing of the season, but in one way I I I was thinking it didn't feel as exciting sometimes because maybe there wasn't as many big score lines because the middle of the league have definitely improved. They're they're harder to beat than they were before. Um but but is that reflected in in the the teams that have been relegated this year? Was it reflected in the quality of the football? Has the league still got the same level of excitement? You know, I I don't know. Maybe it's it's it feels to me like we're all playing pet football type thing, and it's all a bit tighter now. And has that taken away some of the excitement? Well, maybe some of the teams are just not as easily bowled over as they were, and you're not getting big three, four, five nil headline scores, you know? Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 18:29

Don't forget, a bit more direct football uh set pieces and throw-ins as has has uh usurped peps football this year. A different tactic.

SPEAKER_05 18:39

True, true. There has been a lot more counter-attacking football, that type of thing. Yeah, that's very true.

SPEAKER_07 18:45

Pep's changed his way, don't forget. City had been playing a different game. I mean, we've had to because we're not we're not as good on the buzz. It's his base basis his personnel, but he's recruited a different type of player, and it is a different type of player. You know, there's less David Silvers and more Antoine Semenez, right? That's how it is now. You look at the guys who who the powerful, big, fast, strong. Are they as good a technician? You know, Verts didn't really get into it. You think he's a bit of a baller? He's not right, you know. Have the little lads really done as well this season on the ball? I'm not so sure. If you look at who's done the best, it's powerful, big, strong guys, whether it's Arsenal's defence or Declan Rice, yes, you know, um Tiago at Brentford. It's powerful, energetic lads. Obviously, Anderson at Forest sticks out, you know, it's just a different game. I do think it's a combination of City's dominance, and then you know, that makes it not boring, but there's the it goes back to the Arsenal point, you know, they've won the title and credit to them and congratulations to them. That's all you can do is win it, right? But they've but really they could have I don't think City got 80 points. Nobody got 80 except Arsenal. That's that's that's not normal for the last 10 years. Yeah, it's a Leicester City level, and that's why they get unfairly ridiculed. All they can do is win their games, right? But the fact that Liverpool are completely off the boil, City are we've said it all along, and it's been proven, are and were in transition. Because every time it we've got wobbled, it's been all the city have collapsed. And the only people who've been shocked is non-city fans. We know that our midfield cannot control a game. We know that Nico Gonzalez is not quite good enough, and Kovacic has doesn't have the legs. We know that Rogery's not the Rogery so we the reason we can't control it.

SPEAKER_06 20:34

Isn't there a suspicion? Not suspicion, isn't it? Is it Madrid? He won't go.

SPEAKER_07 20:43

He won't go, he'll get a new contract this summer. Rodri? Roger will have a new contract this summer, yeah. But it will be because everybody wants it to unravel because it's the best story. But we've lost John Bernie, Nathan Ake will go, his legs have gone. He's been a but so they won't allow the culture to disappear completely, and the remaining culture is Haaland, Diaz, Roger, and Donna Rumer actually has jumped in and done very well from a camaraderie leadership point of view. So they need to keep the leaders because the new breed that we've got need to show more leadership. Yes, Cherky might be a wonderful player, but you know, that aloofness isn't always helpful in the dressing room. So it needs people like Gay to step up. So there's a different conversation then about what the new city looks like. But I would imagine Roger will sign a contract, three years or something, extension, two two or three years, to say I'm sticking around for a bit, and we'll and we'll go and make a marquee sign in at least two in midfield, because we need two, not one.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

So so just just on the life after Pep thing I can't see Dawn him currently he hasn't got anything else lined up, has he? Apparently not. I can't see him staying out of football, you know, in the long term. I and I can't see him taking a role for somebody else as a um um uh advocate or whatever they call him, you know, some somebody acts as an ambassador. I I you know uh he's a football guy, he likes to be on the grass, he likes to be around talent and and he likes to see players do spectacular things. That's the impression you get about him. Uh so uh uh he he he's but he takes a beach holiday for a year, whatever he does. He's gonna pop up at some other club, right? But it won't be in the EPL because I don't think he would do that at the city. Yeah, he'll go to another league, but he's done Germany, he's done he's done um um Spain, obviously. I sort of ask myself, where the heck would he go, apart from taking on the national side after the World Cup.

SPEAKER_07 22:56

Well, I think that's it. I I do he I think he's taking a role as like an ambassador for Cities, Citroup.

SPEAKER_04 23:04

Right.

SPEAKER_07 23:04

So I imagine he'll imagine he'll have a rest for a year. And again, you know, without going into his private life and all that, we're here to talk about footy, but you know, I think I get the feeling that he wants to put, you know, try and get his marriage sorted and all these other things in the background where he's put football. He's an obsessive character, right? So I think maybe he's gone, right, I've done the thing here, it's time, I feel it's time. I'm making a decision, I'm gonna go and patch things up elsewhere and get some calibration back. Int international feels the only way, and I know that people would argue, yeah, but it's not the same because he's not on the training ground. Yeah, true. But he's already been to the three, what's he gonna do? Go to Italy, maybe, maybe a Napoli or a a Milan, maybe, you know, maybe PSG after Enrique? Well other than them, other than them, he's not doing club football because he's too loyal. I'll put something up, I'll put something in the mix.

SPEAKER_06 23:58

If two sh if Thomas Tushaw has a nightmare for England, yeah, who's to say Pep might turn up as the England manager?

SPEAKER_05 24:04

Ooh, that would be interesting, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_07 24:07

Well that's been rumoured this week that he said that in an interview that he would be interested. I I th I think even though nobody would he's older, he maybe wants more balance in his life. I would say maybe he doesn't want to go into the intensity of that club football and he wants to do it uh let's go and actually see if he can do it with a Brazil or an England. And normally he likes a bit of a challenge. I know everyone says he's a checkbook manager, but he wants to go somewhere to prove that he can make it happen.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

And actually, with international, you get what you get, you can't go out and buy anybody new, you got what you got. I I tell you what, I love to see Pep in an England track suit with that team because you know for a long time I you you I don't know, uh we'll talk about World Cup in the coming weeks, but Tushel doesn't excite you, right? And and there's something about Pep that excites you, and you sort of think if if England squad are as good as they are, and he knows a number of them, how far could he take them? Oh, I like that idea. That would be the head.

SPEAKER_07 25:07

I I think I don't think that's beyond the realms of possibility. I agree. I assume it would be Spain, but then I I don't know, I'm not political on this, but excuse my ignorance, but because he's a Basque, could would he want the Spanish job? I'm not sure. So that's true. That's very important. Spain would be the obvious one, or Portugal, because he likes ballers.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

I think he Pep would look very good in the England blue, he would look fantastic.

SPEAKER_07 25:35

Imagine Harry Maguire playing out from the back.

SPEAKER_06 25:38

Oh, wait, let's not get too excited. Phil Foden would have a better chance of getting in the England squad, I'm not sure about that.

SPEAKER_07 25:45

He doesn't look on that, he doesn't deserve to be in it. Let's be truthful. Uh Palmer was a surprise, but you can argue that he's not done enough. The one that surprises me is Gibbs White. If he wants to be based on performance, yeah, if he wants to if he wants to play that game, where's Gibbs White? But you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_05 26:05

Anyway, let's um just um reflect on the table, um, and we're gonna talk about the season more overall next week, but I I have to say there's two glaring positions in the table that stand out to me. One is Chelsea in 10th and Newcastle in 12th. And I mean, I I I actually think the story of this year has been about managers and manager churn and manager change and what's going to come down the line, less so than players in a way. Um, you know, Chelsea have had what two, three uh managers this year, you know, and it hasn't worked. Clearly, it hasn't worked. Um, sitting in tenth place, 52 points, eighth place off, uh eight points off by Champions League qualification. It's quite shocking for them.

SPEAKER_06 26:50

Well actually, Rodney, I need to correct you on that. They've had head coaches, Alonso's coming in as manager. Yes. That could be the difference.

SPEAKER_05 26:56

That could be the difference. Maybe it's the only reason why you would take it. Now I have to say, I Richard, I thought it was nailed on this year that that um slot would leave and Alonso would would fit in like a glove into Liverpool. Now, to be fair to the um Liverpool hierarchy, they don't typically sack um managers, they haven't done it this time. That makes it a big, big season next year for slot extra pressure there. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_06 27:23

There's even there's even uh rumours that Verts may go to Chelsea to to be back with Alonso, but uh you don't see that.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

Because you you gotta you gotta say but you're 25 points off first place, Richard. Uh is that's a lot of games. That's what eight eight games, that's eight losses off that, at least.

SPEAKER_07 27:45

That's a long way, isn't it? 19 19 19 defeats in in the season is the most. I know it's across different tournaments, but it's the most of a re of a defending champion ever. It's been uh it's been difficult after such a great start. And the money, the money that was spent, how did you win the first five without really playing well? And we're all going, oh bloody hell, what happens when they get really good? And then and then you just fell away.

SPEAKER_06 28:12

Badly. But let's let's you know, let's let's first of all Canati by the way is um he's going, is leaving on a free, yeah. Yeah, which I'm not I'm not yeah, I'm not particularly sad about. Th there was rumors that he was going to sign a new contract, but they've now haven't can't come they can't agree terms. So it looks like he's going back to PSG where he was he was born in Paris and his fat a lot of his family live. Um free transfer. Yeah, another free transfer. So uh Isaac Isaac getting fit, I think, is really important. Isaac getting fit for next season and see what he can do, whether he can return to his his best form. We're gonna have to obviously make some some um several big signings.

SPEAKER_07 28:58

And um yeah, I mean it's you know you're gonna need two years to get back to the top table, Rich. You're gonna need two when you mess up and it happens at different clubs. When are you m when you mess up and it goes wrong like this with sometimes bad luck, injuries, some poor recruitment, whatever, you can't fix it in a year. You can't. So it will take you need to get these new players in, you desperately need somebody in the middle of this.

SPEAKER_06 29:29

Such a shame about Ekatique as well, because that he's gonna be out for a long time. Is it how long is he gonna be out, Richard? He's gonna be out for another at least another six months, isn't he?

SPEAKER_07 29:39

Christmas, yeah, Christmas onwards, and then he's gotta repair. I mean, look at Isaac. He he came, didn't pre-season, it was a messy transfer, then gets unfortunately injured, you know, and yeah, so look, it's it it's funny how how things can change in football. I mean, look at United, they've been ridiculing them, but you've got to you've got to take your hat off and say, what a performance by that club. With I mean, granted, they've got some players in there, but they're not they're not like top top draw, they've got it great, some great individuals, but they've still got gaps in that team. And there they are finishing third, and and obviously the main man getting 21 assists. I mean, you know, it's funny how football can just turn in a matter of a month, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 30:19

I I tell you, uh I thought the whole you've seen all the debate uh uh about um with Keen and Gary and Neville and all this. Um I I I have to say I I've been quite disappointed with the I'm quite disappointed in the the amount of criticism that the Man United linked pundits and podcasters throw at the club and Bruno in particular. And I don't know if you saw Bruno's interview with uh the guy from um Steven, what's his name? Oh it's a great podcast. Um and he's um sorry, I can't hear you, Richard. We can't hear you. Um but um oh goodness, um it it's this is my memory. But it's a great he does a great interview with uh the guy that um does a business podcast, and um I I'm I I'm really disappointed in our former players who are pundits at the moment, um, to the point I'm almost not listening anymore because I think some of the criticism is is a bit over the top actually, and I think it reflects more their relationship with the club than their view on the player. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 31:37

I think that's I think that's spot on. I mean, I like Roy Keane and I like his almost deliberate comments to just spike it up, but I okay, yeah, I I'm not being funny, if I'm Fernandez, right, okay, so they might say, well, you know, he's deliberately trying to get assists, and who cares about assists? When you've had a few years in the doldrums and he's a good player, like him or dislike him, he's a good player and could have moved years ago and won stuff, right? And he and right, you know what, you get near the end of the season, you're guaranteed third. I'm gonna pass the ball to anybody I can. Because you might as well go for some internet and then he's one player of the year. Yeah. I mean, if you're an Arsenal fan, you're thinking, well, you know, that should be one of ours. Actually, what does that tell you? That Arsenal is a machine, yes, right, and not individuals. I think Declan Rice had a serious shout, to be truthful.

SPEAKER_05 32:31

He did.

SPEAKER_07 32:32

Uh um, but I can't disagree with the fact he's Fernandes has had it with 21 assists and everything that he's done this season, and the fact you finished third and you're the most informed team since January. How can anybody criticise that?

SPEAKER_05 32:46

I I and and and I actually, you know, I think I think our fan base is a little bit in civil war at the moment, right? A little bit. I and maybe it's not as obvious or as overt as that, but I think you have the the the fan base who were there all the way through the 80s, 90s, noughties upwards, right? And then you have the fan base who are younger and they're they're more of the naughty's tens and twenties. And you know, there'll be some who will always support what uh school's about a keen says, regardless, right? And you've got those who basically think of them as well, they're they're the past generation, you know that that it's about the new generation. I I I I've been in between actually, and I'm getting it just a bit tired of the constant criticism of the the club criticizing the club to one degree is different, but but you cannot turn around and say Bruno has not been performing at a level way above most of the players at United and being a leader in the way he plays, you know. And and I don't I don't know, I I've just I I it's it's been an interesting experience for me over the last couple of weeks where I'm suddenly thinking, I don't want to listen to these anymore. Actually, I'm fed up listening to what you're saying about the club.

SPEAKER_07 34:08

Yeah, but I think that's just I think it's journalism in as a whole, though, as well, because the quick, you know, the as soon as Pep's go in, even Garolinica was saying something about uh, oh, you know, he's done amazing, he's done this, he's done fantastic, but maybe he knows something about the 115 charges, and then Arsenal go and win a title, and then they're told that they're the worst holders of a of the trophy ever, and then uh United do well, and then they're getting a load of abuse. It's like is that what they're paid to do? Is just create antagonist antagonism, right? And I get it to a point, but also like just just give credit where credit's due. Feel free to get stuck into Chelsea and Newcastle United and stuff, because the the the league table, like you said, says everything. And give Liverpool give Liverpool a bit of grief because they've they've underperformed as high as anybody. But do you know what I mean? It's like it'll be like Villa, Villa go and win everything, and before they've even been able to pick up the trophy, somebody will be talking about Unay Emory going to another club. Sometimes you just have to turn as a fan of your club, you just got to turn your ears off and not listen to all of the all of the analysis afterwards, because some of it is just sensationalism and deliberately putting the spoon in it.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

You're you're you're you're absolutely right. And to be honest with you, Dom, I've started listening to more um politics podcasts at the moment. But you know, only only you know, yeah, I I I yeah it's it's just one of those things. We've had a brilliant season, right? It's not been a fantastic season because we haven't won anything, but where we were and where we are now, nobody could turn around and say it's been a bad season overall.

SPEAKER_07 35:48

And to qualify season, and it's been a fantastic season. You can't because we but we win the Carabao Cup and people say it's a Mickey Mouse. The FA Cup doesn't mean anything. You know, you finishing third is a brilliant season because that's where the that's where United need to be, and now they can kick on.

SPEAKER_05 36:05

But I'll tell I'll tell you what though, Tom, I I'm I'm glad the season's over. You know, it felt like three in one, if you know what I mean. And and you know, I had to actually look up um to see um the the previous um manager's face because I couldn't actually remember you know it just it feels that long ago. Um I I have memory loss, so that doesn't help um help, but um I was sitting there thinking, my god, Reuben Abburn, I need to remind myself what he was like because that feels like two seasons ago, you know. But uh anyway, anyway, uh we should also mention, I mean, Sunderland have been fantastic this season.

SPEAKER_07 36:47

Could we talk about how they were brilliant at the beginning? I mean, like top four for ages, disappeared and just slid away, and then somehow in them last three games, did they win all three and sneaked in on the last game of the season?

SPEAKER_05 37:01

They um they won um two, drawn two, lost um two.

SPEAKER_07 37:06

Um so okay, so I got that wrong. But whatever they got, yeah, they sneaked in.

SPEAKER_05 37:10

They sneaked in.

SPEAKER_07 37:11

Because Brighton's faded, didn't they? They lost the last two or something, and they did. And it meant that they've got European football for a team that's just got promoted. That's unbelievable. In this in this depth of league, like we were saying earlier, you know, vast amounts of money at the top, the middle really strong, you see Burnley struggling, Leeds did okay, and Sunderland have just done, and they finished third last season, remember? They came up in the playoffs.

SPEAKER_05 37:36

Exactly. And do you think up in the North East, the Black Cats um you know, um being in Europe this year, and the two normy not, uh I mean that's gonna be interesting for if you're in a workplace where you've got uh a bit of uh that's a lot worth a lot of banter, isn't it?

SPEAKER_07 37:52

And just over a year ago, Newcastle were winning the Carabao Cup against Liverpool in that monumental game. It was the moment of their lives while Sunderland were still in the playoff champ, and a year later, there's a complete swap. It's unbelievable how football shifts.

SPEAKER_05 38:09

It truly is. Um so let's um let's uh let's talk about the bottom, right? Um, because uh obviously Spurs sneaked it at the end, um and um deserve came in there, isn't that right? Yeah, he did a great job. He did a fantastic job. Um they snuck in, uh, ended up two points ahead of uh of uh West Ham. And um really those three losses that West Ham had in a row probably killed him off, but uh but he'll stay now, do you think, for next season? Is he signed off?

SPEAKER_07 38:43

Yeah, Deserve's got a contract. The lad at um forgot his name, is it Nunes the West Ham guy or stay?

SPEAKER_05 38:49

He's staying, yes.

SPEAKER_07 38:50

Yeah, Wolves have got their manager for next season, Burnley have got to get theirs, but look, I mean it's sort of the again the league doesn't lie, does it? That's how it fell. I think you look you go through the whole thing that that you know you at the end of the season, you yeah, we might have wanted our team to have got a few more points here or there. City cup, could they have got closer? I think when you get to the end of the season, I think Arsenal were seven points better than us. I mean we just fell away. Uh but there was a point where we were level after we beat them, but we just we just weren't ready for it. Well, I'm not moaning. Second and two cups and 2020 trophies and I saw another FA Cup final. I mean, I you've got to count for your blessings and enjoy it while other other teams are having a tough time. At least I'm not a Southampton fan. You know, I mean those poor guys dear mate. That's an absolute I mean, you know, we've not even mentioned that, but that how do you how does the fan base forgive the club for that? Uh I mean, I think it's a harsh punishment, by the way. You know, I cannot all the people I've spoke to, you know, management, man, some of the neighbours around me who are in football industry make it very clear that there's absolutely no way a bloke with binoculars behind a tree is having any impact on a result, no way, Jose, by going back going, oh, just to let you know, Mr. Manager, you know, they're rolling the ball out as a to a as a set piece. You know, that's not making a difference. But the fact they've dealt with it so harshly was a surprise. But now where does Southampton go from here?

SPEAKER_05 40:21

Well, so I I understand in the rule book, the EFL rule book, it strictly says you cannot do any of that form of um scouting, right? You can't and and and so you turn around and say, Well, look, actually, it's in the rule book, you did it, uh, why you did it and what competitive advantage you hope to get from it. I don't know. Somebody standing by a tree with uh an iPhone, you know, it it it it makes no sense at all. But uh FERP, I think the thing about this is the EFL came down quickly, they made their decision, but and they but they could back it up by the fact it was clearly in the rule book, so why wouldn't they?

SPEAKER_07 41:00

You know, uh I'm just glad I'm just glad Hull won. Yes. I'm just really glad Hull won because it just removes any of the silliness now because you know, at least Burr haven't come up by default, yes, because I think there was I think there was a fair argument that they should have just awarded it to Hull.

SPEAKER_04 41:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 41:18

I think I think that was actually a fair argument, but the foul Hull won it is probably the best thing for everybody. I mean how Hull will do next season. Again, I don't want to be those journalists jumping straight in, but I'm going to. You worry you they'll get a big financial payout getting in the in up, and it's great, and the fans will love it, but what a tough ask they've got next season. Um, Coventry, Ipswich and Hull. You know, again, it's the difficulty of the chasm between the two divisions is big. Those teams are going to have to really spend heavy, aren't they? Can you hear me now, by the way?

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Yeah, we can hear you. Um I'm back, I'm back. I'm back, yeah. Well, we missed you terribly actually. There was there was there was minutes of silence while we were waiting for your input. But here's the thing I I I find interesting about when you get promoted like this, um, and it's a sort of football manager. If you're playing it on FIFA or whatever, you know, a FIFA football manager is if you're a board now, right? And like like Hull, and you've you've gone you've gone up, do you turn around and say, Well, we've got a plan, we stick to the plan. If we go back down again, it's a long-term plan. Do you turn around and say, Well, let's look at let's look at what Sunderland did. Can we copy that? Are we able to copy that? Or do you do the thing of let's spend big, let's get some players in there, you know, and and try to stay up? It's it's really it's about that strategy, and it's about the long-term view. It's it's it's it's really quite difficult though, though.

SPEAKER_07 42:43

Or is it holes? I think Hole's an extreme case because they nearly got relegated last season. And I mean, get you know, it doesn't always have to be about well-known names, but you you know, we don't know those teams, just a good, hard-working team who clearly have some ability, otherwise they wouldn't be where they are. But I mean Sunder Sunderland have shown what they can do. But they spent a hundred million quid. They really gambled. They did they they were bought like everyone like Forrest did. Them and Forrest have really gone for it because they've got owners that can handle it. I don't know Hull's ownership model. You'd you'd assume that they'll just do the best, get loan signings in and sounds terrible, doesn't it? Hang on in there and take the payday and try not to be embarrassed. That sounds terrible if any Hull people are listening to this, but yeah, I don't know unless they're gonna go. It's such a big gap now between the divisions. Such a big gap.

SPEAKER_06 43:38

Actually, there's a uh there's a young lad at cricket last night when I was watching the match who pointed out to me that West Ham by going down got uh a far bigger financial uh gain than Barcelona winning La Liga. Yep.

SPEAKER_07 43:52

Which I thought was quite interesting. Yeah. The money in our game is m is unbelievable. Unbelievable that's what no that's why the debts are.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

But y you y don't forget though, they've got a very big stadium to fill there, right? And um having moved and it's it's how many of those fans will be with you next year, how many are there for the premiership only, you know, and how uh and and what will it be like to play in that London stadium with less crowds, you know, if that is the the fact. Maybe they're gonna be loyal and it'll be fantastic, you know. I don't I don't know. Um but I w I I sometimes worry that uh within the London clubs there's a group of actors.

SPEAKER_06 44:34

Are we talking about West Ham?

SPEAKER_05 44:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:36

Well they've got a huge amount of season ticket holders.

SPEAKER_07 44:40

I think West West Ham will bounce straight back up. They they're a good fan base as well. I know they can they can get fallout and get a bit salty, and but I think that they have that they've been there before, they're they're a hardened bunch. I think if Tottenham went down, it'd be chaos with the fan base. Possibly because they because they mentally wouldn't be able to cope. Actually, most West Ham fans. I know they've been around in the premiership for a while, but quite a lot of them have been up and down in a hardened fan base. So I think that'd be fine. True. And I think they'll and they'll keep the manager, they'll keep a good chunk of those players. You think Jared Bowen will stay? I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. You'd be a great you know, if you're Coventry City or well, anybody really difficult to get people that can score goals and assists, isn't it? So I think Boeing would be Boeing would be in the market for sure. I mean he's he's been linked with some big name clubs, including ourselves. Has he? Juan Basaka will go somewhere, really. You know, they have do have individuals there that are are good players.

SPEAKER_05 45:38

Yeah. Um we'll see. Have we talked about Liverpool and off Dorm, do you think?

SPEAKER_07 45:44

Yeah, I think I think we have this this year. No, I think no, I think we have. I think Britt, you know, it's been it disappointing. We've covered it before. We're all a bit a lot of a loss, really. And that's that's probably the most worrying thing for them. Because if you could put your finger on it, it's a bit easier, isn't it? But the way it and I'll tell you what, Arsenal experience this next season. We've both all said this in previous episodes. When you've won it, it is so difficult to retain it. To get going again and have everything going for you. And Arsenal just have, and I know they've been knocking on the door for a while, but that doesn't mean automatically that there's going to be world dominance. I don't see that. I see United improving, I see I see Moreska actually doing pretty well. Do you want to be? Yeah, I'm bound to be half full about it, but I do think that Moresca is the right choice right now. He knows the club, he's bringing Willie Caballero as his number two, and another guy who was in the um EDS development teams. So there's people who know City inside now already. It's not a total change of DNA at all. And just like Klopp did for Liverpool in that season, Moresca is being left a team that's close to being close to being good enough to challenge. Klopp did it for Liverpool, Pep's done it for City.

SPEAKER_06 47:07

Actually, it'd be interesting with Arsenal having this really strong spine at the moment, if they add just a few really top quality players, even another striker maybe, they are gonna be formidable, aren't they?

SPEAKER_07 47:22

Um you don't think? Yeah. It depends if they want to just like I just think Arteta doesn't take the handbrake off enough. I mean, will Gabriel will he stick around and wanna create a dynasty or will he want to go to Madrid? You you don't know, you don't know yet if heads get turned for big money. And also, let's be honest, they've got a good, really, really big, good squad. Like if you're going and analysing them and going, well, how'd you make them better? You are probably gonna have to be ruthless and let people like Trossard and Martinelli go, who you know, and maybe the I forgot the name of the Spanish lad that they play in midfield sometimes and scores goals for them, but he's not actually a striker. Um the one that was Marino, Marino. Yeah, things people like that on the periphery, he's probably gonna have to let them go and and maybe get the young winger in more and Louis Skelly obviously turned back up in the team again, hasn't he? Yeah, you've got to let you've got to that's what the city did, Foden and then Palmer and now O'Reilly. You need to actually not just keep buying in external, you've got to get the balance between and also it's ironic, isn't it, really?

SPEAKER_06 48:27

Because if if if Arsenal were win to the Champions League this Saturday, you could say some players might say, Well, I've done everything here now, I've won the league, I've won the Champions League, now I move on. Yeah. Rather than thinking, we've got a start of something really special here, we've won two. The make I know it's time to stay and build it. Like you could argue both, couldn't you really?

SPEAKER_05 48:47

Well, I'll tell you what, this is a good place to move to Saturday's game. Um, and I I gotta say, I don't like the five o'clock kickoff. I I I there's something about it. Uh for me, Champions League is always eight o'clock, quarter to eight, that type of time. But um uh it's a five o'clock kickoff and it's in um Budapest, they're on their way to Budapest, which I I have to say, lovely city, so it'll be a classic place to visit to watch it.

SPEAKER_06 49:14

It's sort of like a sunny, a sunny light game, won't it? Usual under the footlights.

SPEAKER_05 49:19

Great pubs, great bars, great nightlife in uh Budapest. So uh it'll be fantastic. Um what's your god feel about this? What do you what do you see? Um what sort of game do you think it'll be and and who who's you got your money on? And and not emotionally. Unemotionally, because I think there's an awful lot of anti-arsenal feeling. But let's start with you, Don. What's your feeling about the game? Are we gonna see a very progressive attacking um Paris play a very conservative Arsenal? What what do you what's your gut saying?

SPEAKER_07 49:55

Oh, I mean it's gonna be it's very difficult to play PSG. It's just very difficult. That you can have an open game. If you take the semi-final against Bayern, when they wanted to make it open and make it into a game of basketball, which is what Bayern Muni did, it was what 5-3, 5-4, and they still won. But then they went to Bayern and can also play the attrition game, and they've got such quality. I I think Arsenal, Arsenal, when they're really at it with this high press, and it all for Arsenal to get anything out of it, things need to go their way. They all need to play incredibly well, they need a bit of the bit of the rubber-the-green now and again on a you know, a hit in the post or a last gasp challenge, there's gonna be a little bit of that. But if any team can block out PSG, it's Arsenal. So in a one-game, if it's a two-legger, I can't see beyond PSG. In a one game, if the set pieces go well, I know it's not just about that, but if the set pieces go well, and they can score one or two off those, which is highly likely, because Mokinos good defender, but that defence is not the best in the country, Arsenal's is, right? And Arsenal's attacking pro S in the box and set pieces cannot be ignored. So if it goes well and they get those chances and they defend well and press well and fight for their lives, then yes, they can do it. Because don't forget Chelsea beat PSG in that.

SPEAKER_06 51:31

And I can imagine they're being swimming VAR controversy again. I can see because of these set pieces and pushing and shoving and holding, and I can see something happening there, you know, like a goal that it's not it's not a 5-0.

SPEAKER_05 51:44

Well, here's an interesting stance. So only nine teams have completed an unbeaten Champions League campaign. Arsenal are now one game from being becoming the next. So they've never they've not lost this year in the Champions League. That's that's tough thing, and uh, of course, um Paris are the reigning champions and the first holders to reach the final since Real Madrid in 2016, 17 and 17 and 18. Um so you know it it it's set up really interestingly, you know, it really is, and I I think you've got very contrasting managers as well, haven't you? Well, they're both Spanish, but yeah, but in style and DOM, you know.

SPEAKER_07 52:27

Yeah, yeah, look, PSG are the best team. Like, and they I mean there's a there's that conversation I think we've had this before about we're we're in the final game now, they've all had some time off, they'll all be fit. But across the season, what Arsenal have done is magnificent because do not forget that the European leagues help their clubs, we do not help English clubs, and I say that on behalf of all of our clubs, right? When we're in the Champions League, we have to cram fixtures in, and players have to play too much because of the depth of the quality of the league. So if you take, I don't know, any of that arsenal, the vast majority of the top players have played well over 50 matches, yeah. Same with City, same with Liverpool when they're in all competitions, you're playing 50 plus matches to 65. Ridiculous. Over in Spain, um over in uh uh France particularly, if you look at their average games that they play, do you know that it's under 30? Because they rest them, they give them the week off before a big Champions League game. The league in France allows PSG to not play the week before. And and because they've got no depth in the league, before Christmas, Dewey and Dembele, etc., and the ladder can't pronounce who's better than all of them, the left winger, they don't play all the time. Because they build them up to be at their optimum level by April, whereas we by then by then are absolutely wiped out with too much football. So they design it because they put so much value in the Champions League. Whereas in England, you've got to do it and win the league. That's why treble winners at United and City is absolutely unbelievable. And if Arsenal do it, it's unbelievable to get a double, a proper double like that. You can't you can't say, well, it wasn't good football. Who cares? It's about the trophies when you're the fan. Who cares? If they get the two trophies, then that's got to be an all-time great Arsenal team, but whether you like it or not.

SPEAKER_05 54:30

So so they've scored 44 goals this season so far, and that's only one below um Barcelona's all-time singles um season record, which was 99-2000. So, you know, you you you look at that, and uh, I can never tell you this guy's um name, but it's uh Cavras Chile, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 54:49

Yeah, brilliant player.

SPEAKER_05 54:51

And he's at the heart of that um uh as as as we we know. So it it's it's really interestingly set up and uh um really interestingly set up. You will you watch it guys?

SPEAKER_06 55:05

Well I'm I I'm the Prime Minister's been asking it that it should be shown free, but I think TNT are sticking to their guns and it's just on TNT, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 55:16

I think it is, yeah. I think you're right.

SPEAKER_07 55:19

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's that's a disaster, really. You know, that's another story about commerciality of TV rights, isn't it? But um yeah, look, but it's the right final, bar by a mu by a mut it would argue different, maybe, but those three are head and shoulders better than anybody else.

SPEAKER_05 55:36

Right, so here's the thing, Dom, what do you think? Um winner and possible score line.

SPEAKER_07 55:47

You know what? I'm gonna put my neck on the line and go Arsenal 2-1. I'm gonna go 1-0 Arsenal. I just think I just think they've got a season where the gr the lights are going green for them. It happens it happens when you win stuff. We've up with when we won the treble, it happened. You you sometimes you just things go your way. I just feel Arsenal have got an aura about them to get over the line.

SPEAKER_06 56:15

And I think the the pressure's always on the favourite, and the favourite is PSG. And uh I think Arsenal will that will help Arsenal in some respects. I think they'll just sneak a win.

SPEAKER_05 56:25

Oh I I'm gonna I'm gonna go opposite. I I'm gonna say I think PSG, I I think uh it'll be the um it'll be Enrique's in-match management and uh I think they'll win, but I think the the and that'll be 2-1 to Munich or no to PSG, sorry.

SPEAKER_07 56:47

But I'm wanting a P and I'm wanting a PSG win, I just have to put that in there. I'm wanting PSG to win, but if I was putting my money on it, I'm going 2-1 arsenal. In fact, I'll probably have a little a little tenor on that now. I've said it.

SPEAKER_05 56:58

There you go. There you go. Put your money where your mouth is. Um we'll be watching that on uh Saturday night. Uh it's live on TNT. I I never quite know where you watch these things myself, but uh we have that many channels in this house. Um we we seem to manage to watch them all. Um and that's a whole different ball game. The cost of football. Um, we're gonna be starting World Cup Watch coming soon. Um, some of the squads are out. Uh big, big omissions for England just before we we we leave. Were you surprised by this?

SPEAKER_07 57:31

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think Cole Palmer's the obvious surprise. Yep. Um Maguire. Foden Foden not. Don't think that's an unfortunately Trent not. Trent should go, but we knew he wasn't going to get picked. Um I don't see how Spence gets ahead of or Livramento gets ahead of Trent. It's just absolutely ridiculous. Um so it's not the team I it's not the squad I would pick, but like you say, I don't Tushell never really never really animated me at Chelsea, and he doesn't animate me now.

SPEAKER_06 58:05

It's interesting, he says he says he's going for harmony rather than a big stardom. He wants a harmonious squad, uh harmonious squad rather than uh the best individuals.

SPEAKER_07 58:16

Fair enough. Fair enough. I think Cole Palmer's not played enough football and he's not been good enough. And and and I do think that that lad was completely overinflated after he had a good season at Chelsea, and he's a very good player. But can we calm down? He's not Pele, right? And he and he's had a bad time with injuries and he's been off it uh in a poor team. So I get that. Foden shouldn't be going. I don't think it's even good for his mental health to go, to be truthful. He needs the last thing he needs is to go and spend a month in America not kicking a ball, because that's what would happen. But you know, Morgan Rogers has to go, the forward line. Tony was a bit of a surprise, maybe. Yeah. Um rather than the the lad at Leeds, maybe, or um Daddy Welbert. But our first 11's alright, innit? I think you know, you then start to talk about what the team should line up. I mean, Anthony Gordon, we all have a different opinion on him. Nobody he doesn't really excite any of us in England. Yeah, Barcelona have just bought him 70 million. That's unbelievable, isn't it? We're seeing something we've not seen. So yeah, I think in the main, I think it's the Maguire. Because I don't think Maguire would necessarily be the first choice central defender, but um special teams that that he is incredibly effective. If you're in tournament football ten minutes to go and you need to get something in the other box, he's incredibly effective, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 59:42

Do you do you within the national football it it feels to me like there's two schools of camp here? One school is you pick whichever players are most informed and be most consistent throughout the season in e each position, right? Which would sort of make sense, but it's a bit like um the Harlan Globe Trotters approach, basically, right? And and you hope that their natural intelligence and football ability makes them able to play together. Or you take the approach that it's Team England and you you have a structure and you play the players you think are best able to play that structure, regardless of form. And I have to say, I think I think the latter has become more typical in international football, and I can understand why it is, because you're trying to also create a harmony of a team as well and a consistency, but that sort of goes away from the traditional approach of international football, which has been to pick the 11, 16, 18, 24 best players in the league.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:47

That'll also be interesting to see if he starts Bellingham because they've had some issues before. So maybe Bellingham isn't uh uh an obvious starter, maybe he'll have to come on as a substitute.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:58

So it's it's it's it's really interesting, and it's a big call on Tuschul, but I'm not surprised. This is the man, isn't he? He he's unemotive. That's what the FA really wanted. Somebody who wasn't going to be swayed by what the media are saying, not be swayed by the fan base or anything else. He's his own man. Um and he'll he'll make a call. I think bringing somebody like Tony in who goes under the covers, uh, I I I think you know it's it's it's not a bad call, but Tony Tony's a good player, and he's an incredible penalty taker, and he can hold the ball up very well.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:34

So maybe he's thinking, you know, that that part of his game to keep the ball high, you know, like for more of a tactical thing. The the the one that really feels wasteful, that's not criticism of him, he's had a great career, he's just Henderson. I feel like it's Henderson, yeah, I get understand leadership. Well, take him as a coach. Why you if he's in the changing room just to G people up, put him in a tracksuit. Why why are you using a sp take Gibbs white? We've got enough holding midfielders, haven't we? In because Rice uh not Rice, sorry, you've got Declan Rice and Anderson who are the shoe-ins, surely, but you've got Cobby Maynew, you've got um Reese James who can drop in there. I don't I I'm just really disappointed that we couldn't have took Trent, and I'm saying that as a anti-Liverpool fan, because he can just do things with that ball that nobody else can, and it meant Reese James could drop in the middle at times, and and Trent it depends who we play and if we're trying to open teams up, doesn't it? But I just think Henderson's a bit of a wasteful one, and John Stones is a gamble because it's gonna be will he will he be out after two weeks.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:40

I gotta say, um I I think it leaves your new manager um and and and uh and also the uh Tottenham uh Chelsea manager with a bit of a challenge in terms of how do you make sure those players don't lose their heads over the summer, they return sharp and fit and you know pushing. I I've no doubt they'll be fine, but you can imagine you know Foden and and Palmer really quite annoyed and and and angry at being left out, especially Palmer who's never featured in the tournament to date and had a decent uh had a decent um season, not a brilliant season, but a decent season.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:20

I don't think he's been good enough. I think if I'm if I'm Gibbs White, I'm upset. I think if I'm Gibbs White, and he has because he was making a point when he scored a goal. I think if I'm Gibbs White, I'm upset. So I imagine Gibbs White and Anderson will be out of noting own Forest very quickly. Unfortunately, for Forrest, they'll get mopped up, they're way too good now to not be at top teams, them two. So I would have had them too. They play together as well. I just uh it look, it's it's about opinion.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:47

But we'll um we'll be doing a bit of World Cup watch and we'll be switching to the uh World Cup of Dreams uh in a few weeks' time, and we'll be back in some form. Um but guys, we're gonna next week we're gonna do our um we're gonna do our end of season pod. Um who's been the best manager, the best player, the best team, the biggest overall uh achiever, the biggest underachiever, the best signing, the goal of the season, and your favourite moment of the season will be doing that and maybe also with um with uh Aaron and with us um next week. Um for now.