Andy & Cherie | Are you a Whole Brain Leader? | Lead with Courage

Ever wondered how to blend different leadership styles within a team?

Andy and Cherie put on the headphones and turn on the mics for a short episode of the Lead with Courage podcast to discuss Whole Brain Thinking, which is the thinking preference tool bought know as HBDI (Herrmann Brain Dominance Instrument).

They discuss how understanding individual leadership styles and thinking preferences can foster team effectiveness.

Later they talk about the different reports on offer, as well as showcase Andy's individual HBDI report (available on Youtube) as well as an example of the Team Effectiveness Dashboard.

Learn more about Whole Brain Thinking
Enquire with Luminate about a Whole Brain Thinking workshop at hello@luminateleadership.com.au
See Andy's HBDI report and a Team Effectiveness report here.

Watch this episode on Youtube here

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Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.

If you enjoyed it, we'd be grateful if you like, share and subscribe to hear our future conversations.

To find out more about the work we do Luminate Leadership connect with us:
Luminate's Website and LinkedIn and on
Instagram : Luminate_Leadership and Cherie Canning

Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome back to the Lee with Courage podcast. We've got Cherie and Andy with you today and, by popular demand and a couple of requests, come through. Cherie, funnily enough, people would love to hear what you have to say.

Speaker 2: 0:16

And you, and you, I believe, Andy.

Speaker 1: 0:17

And me sometimes.

Speaker 2: 0:19

You're the dark horse Everyone keeps telling me they want to hear more from. So in fact, I reckon you've got to speak more, but we'll see how we go.

Speaker 1: 0:26

We'll see how we go. Today we thought we'd talk about leadership styles specifically in the workplace and how they mix, and we have quite a unique example, I guess, with you and I in particular. You know both working in Luminate and being, I guess, co-runners of Luminate, if you want to call it that and we both have very different roles in the business, as we do in the house, and we both approach tasks and both approach opportunities with a very different lens. I think it would be fair to say Do we, do we.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Might be might be news to you, but in my view that we absolutely do, and I thought we could maybe talk through the nuance of that a little bit and some of the things that we use to, you know, I guess, strategize and learn to communicate effectively with each other, especially when we're in the workplace and when we're outside of the workplace as well, and how that might relate to everyday humans in their teams and even with their families and just in normal life. How does that sound?

Speaker 2: 1:30

Sounds good to me. I am a bit nervous what might come out. I kind of can't hide from this conversation, Can I? We're right in it talking about how we work together. But I think you're absolutely right. It's, you know, for some people they do work with their partners, so it's directly clear, a clear link there. But for many it's more just the different styles and personalities in a workplace. So, yeah, it's beneficial for everyone, I would assume. Yeah, it's beautiful. Well, at least that's the aim anyway, right.

Speaker 1: 1:56

That is the aim, Whether they find it beneficial or not. We'll see.

Speaker 2: 1:59

The proof will be in the views. You will find a benefit. You will find a benefit.

Speaker 1: 2:05

We have to manifest that out there. So perhaps then we kick off with leadership styles in general. I can ask you an open-ended question, I guess. How would you define your leadership style?

Speaker 2: 2:19

Well, if I was in a workshop right now talking about leadership styles because we do that all the time I would say there is no wrong or right leadership style. There's no ideal leadership style. But in answer to your direct question, I'd say mine is the best one. No, no, not at all. There you go. No, I'd say there's a lot of things I think I bring to the table as a leader and there's a lot of things that I don't have at the table. So how would I define? Maybe you answer that how would you define my style? And we said we'd be kind today, so consider that in your answer.

Speaker 1: 2:56

We did say we'd be kind, yes, maybe adding a podcast filter in there. I would describe yours as very kind of leading with empathy first and leading with the human connection side of things first. I sort of feel like before you approach any task or before you deal with any challenge is how is this going to land from a human point of view approach that you apply to it? And it's one of the things that I love about you, because it's totally different to me, as we'll find out shortly, but for you I feel like that's how you come from there, and then just sort of more from an inside out perspective.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Thank you, thank you, I like to hear that. I would say yeah, I would agree. I would agree. I'd say that my leadership style as well is that just always adapting and changing, like I think that flexibility and variety and new ideas and trying new things and running fast is something I really enjoy or I get a lot from that. Has its upsides and downsides, for sure, but I'd say yeah, probably. I would like to think that my style is also very collaborative and really like it is, like you said that, human. So it's always about I don't believe I've got all the answers. I've always have an opinion on give, on feedback and different things, but I don't have all the answers. So I think it's a collaborative approach and, yeah, just always wanting to be better, better, better. I don't settle for things at all. So yeah, I'd say that's a little bit of my style.

Speaker 1: 4:42

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that one of the things that makes you a founder, and one of the unique parts of the DNA of a lot of founders that I've kind of come to know or come to learn about through reading books or listening to podcasts, is that relentless pursuit, if you will, and I see that in you, that tenacity and that just I guess the other way of saying it is stubbornness in a beautiful way to be able to sit there and say you know what?

Speaker 2: 5:10

Resilience, relentlessness.

Speaker 1: 5:12

Yeah, we're just going to do this and we're just going to make it happen, and no, we won't take no for an answer, and I think that's one of the big reasons that we started this podcast for one. But then you know, also, look at the business and we're nearly three years old now, pretty much just bang on three years old and part of the reason that it's growing to what it is today is that sort of relentless pursuit of we can do this and I will do this and yes. And that drives through with your leadership, the way that you kind of take control of meetings, I guess, and probably part of the reason that we're in the kind of business that we are as well, in terms of helping companies develop their people, creating credible cultures that leave a legacy behind in businesses as well, and working with businesses to understand what their culture looks like, is sort of bringing that, I guess, innate expertise and that passion of yours through.

Speaker 2: 6:05

Thank you. Thank you, and, like I did, we'll jump on to you in a second. I did say that you know there's things I bring to the table and things that I don't, and it's really, it's really interesting because I feel like it's taken a long time for me to get to a place where I'm really comfortable with my natural style being enough. I know that you know, many, many years ago, I think, that people element, that human element which is just my natural style, I probably was led to believe that that was sometimes weak or it wasn't intelligent enough, it wasn't enough that you needed to be the analyst. The logical, practical, everything's on a spreadsheet and you're talking high level numbers and it's all commercial all the time. Everything's very strategic and you're just talking about the business all the time and and that is important but what I? I probably lost my way a little bit in my own leadership for a while there, trying to be more like that but recognizing I've got to learn those things, I've got to understand those things. But play to your strengths, and my strengths is around taking people on the journey. You know, talking and and hopefully inspiring a team and giving them a vision to aim for and a belief and the core values and the purpose to work towards and collaborate and connect over and be motivated to turn up every year, to turn up every day for that bigger purpose and and for the team and for the customers and and now I realize that is not innate in everyone either, so I'm proud of those skills now, but I do remember.

Speaker 2: 7:39

You know we were, I was in a team many, many years ago and I talk about this in some of our workshops, in one of the workshops we do around HPDI, the whole brain thinking and the different styles, which I guess is where we'll lead to a bit more of today. I remember being a participant in one of those sessions and you blow up the balloons, or at the time you blow up the balloons and shows the kind of your style which is more naturally you and there's four colors blue, green, red and yellow. And the red is really that empathic, it's the relational, it's the emotional, it's the expressive. That is just me all over and I had. You know you're blowing up these balloons and there was a few of us in the team and at the end of the activity, my, my leader at the time, looked around the room and he goes oh, oh, just way too many reds in this team. Remind me not to hire any more reds next time. We've already got enough. And can you imagine like when you're sitting there and you're the empathetic emotional expressive, all about the people person getting told we've already got enough of you, like I need something different? And I didn't realize at the time actually the impact that that had on my confidence and my natural style and probably took me on a bit of a wonky, wobbly journey around. Well, what kind of leader should I be? What kind of leader am I? And I guess that's the beauty of those tools in a way. But it's also the warning sign I often.

Speaker 2: 9:06

I share that story often because If we don't use these tools and talking about leadership styles in a really embracing your strengths perspective, it can leave some pretty damaging like not enoughness for people and almost putting down the traits of others that we need. And I think that's where we call it whole brain thinking with the HPDI. It is the whole brain approach and my profile, if those familiar with the profile tool that read I've just explained, and the second part of my profile that's my strongest, is yellow, which is really big picture. It's visionary, it's that entrepreneurial, it's the creative and fun and spontaneous and everything's just like don't give me too much detail, let's just go for the big picture, and that's me. And then, on the other side, if you flip, that HPDI preference is you like? You and me are the exact whole brain, your two preferences. And I think, for those who aren't as familiar with the HPDI, the opposite for the red is the blue, which is the analytical, the logical, very much a commercial and numbers based. It's all about facts, not feelings. And then, the opposite to that big picture, yellow is the green, so the green is the organized, the detailed, the process, the schedule, everything's got its place and its flow, so everything's got form, versus, like, the freedom of the yellow.

Speaker 2: 10:32

And I think that's that's what I would say that you bring, you bring that commercial mind, you bring that. Okay, let's look at these numbers. What's going to work? What are the levers we need to pull from a commercial standpoint? And then the process side of things. Right, well, shaz, it's great, you want to run a podcast and inspire people and bring in these guests and make these great connections. But how's it going to work? How are we going to schedule it? What systems do we use? How much will all this cost, how much time will it take and I sit there go. I don't know, but it will be a really great idea. So I think I don't know. To me, that's then what you bring. You really bring that other side of the whole brain in your leadership style.

Speaker 1: 11:16

Yeah, it's a good point. It's a very good point. I think that, yeah, my profile is the more left brain side of things, which is more predominantly blue, green, in fact. What we'll do is I'll just bring that up onto the screen now.

Speaker 2: 11:34

Oh, will you? I love these tools. As you bring it up, like there's an element where it talks about under pressure and I really find that question is quite profound, really, because when are we not under pressure? That's to be real. If you're in business or you're in your job, you've got a family, you've got different responsibilities outside of work Like when are we not under pressure these days? So being aware of where you go under pressure and how that changes is pretty critical.

Speaker 1: 12:10

It is totally critical, all right.

Speaker 2: 12:14

I'm nervous, yours or mine.

Speaker 1: 12:18

I've got mine, given that this is maybe slightly on the ambitious side, given that I've not used this before and all tried to do this, but I'll just get it up here.

Speaker 2: 12:35

You're all good. I can give you a personal debrief HBDI debrief on the pod, I think, as you bring it up, it is such an important element to know a big believer, like focusing on your strengths, know what you do bring to the team and know that it's contributes. And it is challenging if your style is maybe not the dominant style in a team. So previously I've been in teams where there has been a lot of red, so there's a lot of. Oh, here we go. Beautiful One, one, two, two.

Speaker 1: 13:15

Here we go. So this is me in a nutshell. I did this back in 2021. I have to say I haven't changed that much since then and if I was honest, I'd probably be more left leaning than anything.

Speaker 2: 13:28

Yeah, give it there so I can. Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1: 13:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:34

So that's me in a nutshell. So it is absolutely kind of analytics and numbers based. First, I've learned over most of my life to gut check quite a lot, because more are lean towards the. I guess the. What does the facts say? What does the numbers say? Similarly, when someone presents an idea like you, my beautiful wife and business partner, when you present an idea, the first thing I'll think of is the process, which is the green side, it's the. How are we going to get there? What's going to need to happen for us to get there? How does this system talk to that system? How do we execute? How long do we have? What are the what is? And then the blue marries that up with. What does the numbers say?

Speaker 2: 14:13

Yeah, and Andy, like I, just maybe not everyone will see the video, maybe they can tune in and have a look around 14 minutes you can see the, you can see this. But even as you're describing this and you can see in your picture on the video, we're under pressure. That dotted line, the, the other shape, if you like, you drop in your yellow and you pick up in that green, the yellow being the big picture, the ideas, the spontaneity, taste, taking risk, they're huge elements of the yellow. So your risk taking and your spontaneity drops and the big picture, how can we do it? Then it turns into, I guess, the, the dream, if you like, and then the green is the execution and the green one of the keywords they use is safekeeping. So the green, really preference, is not to take big risks, it's to really, you know, make sure everything's got its place and its process and it's scheduled and it's planned and it's detailed, and not all of those words will resonate with everyone. So, for example, I know you wouldn't necessarily connect to the word detailed, but process and strategy. It's the same with with the red, for example. People might connect to many of them but they go.

Speaker 2: 15:27

Actually I'm not. I'm not a speaker. I'm more introverted, so I'm more of a I'll listen, but I am expressive in my own way, so we can take one or two of the words and I love that in in the HPDI app there's actually what they call clusters, so it shows you the keywords for each quadrant that stand out specifically for your profile. And so, yeah, even as you're describing that like when you're like, well, what about this, what about that? Like I'm having an amygdala hijack, I'm having my emotional reaction going look, stop with all your stop, with all the reasons why it can't happen and let's make it happen. But you never said it can't.

Speaker 2: 16:04

It's just the process you need to go through, and I think that is that is the key. That's the magic for leaders is to recognize just cause Andy will feel more comfort, understanding the scheduling, the process and what needs to happen. Then I've got I've got to be flexible to allow you to get that. Likewise, if I want to sit in the meeting and brainstorm and just talk out my thoughts and my feelings, to come up with an idea, kind of like, you've got to give me the space to do that too, because then I'm in my genius and my strength place and eventually it's like ying yang, isn't it Eventually? And for us it's always interesting because you add another layer of familiarity of marriage on.

Speaker 2: 16:44

But but it really is in any workplace is recognizing. We need all that Because if we only walked around with these big picture ideas and all these wonderful things we could do, it probably wouldn't get done. But if also, conversely, if we only looked at, well, there's no schedule and how would we do it? It's not possible because we haven't got all the, all the information, all the ducks are in a row and we don't take any risks and just start, then nothing would happen either.

Speaker 1: 17:11

So the two and this comes same with the red and the blue perspectives- Totally, and if it was for me, I feel like most founders of businesses and you know, would sit in more the right brain side of things, especially in that maybe that yellow quadrant a lot of the time.

Speaker 2: 17:27

Yeah, and often yellow blue as well. Yeah, yellow, blue, so the commercial analytical and the big ideas.

Speaker 1: 17:35

Yeah, if it was. I mean, if it was up to me to start a business like we just never get past. You know the basics of how's this going to work. What are the dollars look like? What are the cents look like? How's this going?

Speaker 2: 17:46

to work. You'd have an ADN and a bank account.

Speaker 1: 17:48

Yeah, totally Like those things I do because they're quite process driven and I like that. But the origination of ideas is is absolutely not my strong suit. I'm very, um, quite critical. So if ideas come up that I don't love, then you know, uh, or I just can't. It's not that I don't love them necessarily because I don't want to shut them down, but it's just more if I can't see how they satisfy the analytical and maybe I could just. You know, just for clarity, you mentioned those other key words. I scroll through to the second page here and people can actually see when I filled this out, I was, I was a category or I put my occupation as a category manager, which was from a previous life, which is probably lens a lot to that kind of role where it's quite analytical, it's quite um, critical, logical sequential yes, all those words there, you know, and they're not too many of the yellow you've got intuitive, which falls in red and yellow combined, which is what you said about the gut check.

Speaker 2: 18:48

You've learned to do the gut check, so that sounds really consistent with how you've described yourself yeah, absolutely so.

Speaker 1: 18:54

That's sort of how it, how it all comes out. I testify to the energy level. I am absolutely the day I pet sort of peak in the morning and I fall relatively flat by mid afternoon and you come alive you know, mid afternoon into the evening. So yeah, so it's, it's an interesting one.

Speaker 1: 19:14

This is just one of the three tools that we use, and maybe we'll record another podcast at another time talking about the other two tools being mice, bricks and discs as well so this one and we run these for individuals with a debrief, or we run them for teams as well, which is a great way to do a planning day, or, you know, if you're onboarding it through a team in particular, then feel like that can work. You know fairly well in terms of how that works.

Speaker 2: 19:41

So yeah, and it's a good point. I mean, you know, if your camera was tilted ever so slightly down, you see your LSKD shirt and it's on my drink bottle. You know, with with our friends at LSKD is a prime example. I think, about team and also onboarding. It's a tool that they use, as we know that they use it as an onboarding tool and upskilling all of their team as part of when they start, just so they know where they fit. And I'm sure and I know that the guys wouldn't mind me saying, but we often talk about this when you talk about founders and and where people's strengths are. You know Jason Daniel, who's been on the podcast, a founder of LSKD. He is your epitome of yellow. Also, he's got a bit of red because about the community and how people are going to experience the brand, and so that yellow, red, but mainly yellow. And then when you put it on a map and you put these team mapping, which is what it's all about, because you've got to bring your individual but what is everyone around you, how you're complimenting each other? If you're too similar, we actually miss things. We want that whole brain approach. And so then the CFO, matt, he's really blue. Keith, the COO is really green, and so between them, in between the three of them, they really kind of cover off on the four bases with their three profiles and and that's why it works like where one person will have the big idea, say, jason, matt will make sure that it's a commercial, commercially sound idea, and Keith then is around well, how do we execute it and how do we make it happen? And that's a prime example I think of when you want to look at the whole team, not just the individual, I do. I do believe and I see all the time, is that you can have leaders in any of those quadrants, in any of those styles. And, as you mentioned, I think it's not just the profiling tools when we talk about leadership styles, but understanding those. I think they're a good way to discuss who, what, what, how do you think? Therefore, if you think this way, how are you communicating?

Speaker 2: 21:38

So, if you're rolling out change, you think about it through those four lenses, like if you're communicating change to a team. Are you just talking about the green, which is like, well, here's the schedule and this is, this is what's occurring and when it's going to occur, or are you talking about the yellow, the big picture of this is why it's happening. This is where we're going. Take people on the journey.

Speaker 2: 21:58

If you're rolling out change, are you looking at the red quadrant perspective and going, okay, well, what's everyone's emotional reaction going to be to change? What could some of the things that they do and say and how do I counteract? And from the blue, if you're thinking about change, it's like, well, what's this going to cost? What's the ROI on this? Have we made logical, practical decisions here? And when you look at all four and then communicate change with a whole brain approach, it's really balanced. But if we don't understand our preferences and we don't understand our natural ways, then we absolutely come out with a biased approach. And that's the same with giving feedback, it's the same with running meetings, and I think we can apply these styles to everything we do yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:43

I think that's that's bang on, and and I've just got another document up here as well to maybe share, which is just around kind of how it all works from a team perspective, which is one of the things that we could kind of blend in as well. So I'll just share, share this here yeah, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 23:05

So here's an example of a no worries a team effectiveness dashboard which we use with our partners at Herman, so goes through really the ins and outs in terms of the summaries of what the team is. There's lots of data, lots of great things in here, just to show averages of where teams sit, and I think this can be reused quite effectively when layered with goals and KPIs in terms of what talks to each team.

Speaker 2: 23:33

Yeah, I love. I remember a specific workshop I used this with and it was just so powerful Just seeing where we believe we should be and where we are and how important some of these traits are, and then to see where does our natural team sit. And the beautiful thing and I think this is the important takeaway for us all is that all of these skills can be developed. So it's not an innate thing that then if you don't have it, you can never develop it. You know we talked before about commercial acumen and the numbers and understanding P&Ls and going through all the finances. I will never I don't, I should never say never really should we? But you know there's hell would freeze over. Before I was a CFO for a job, that's for sure, and I don't think anyone would trust me for that job anyway. But the thing is so it's not my love, it's not my passion, it's not my natural strength. What do you want to say about that?

Speaker 1: 24:30

The first step would be to walk into internet banking and maybe know another formula other than equal sum from an Excel perspective. But in all seriousness, you know your IQ. You are one of the most intelligent people I know. You could do a thousand of those personality tests or IQ tests and you will come out being totally sharp. So it's not that you can't apply it. It's that your energy is better used, spent doing things that you love, to come naturally to you and that sort of thing, Well, thank you, and I think that's the point right.

Speaker 2: 25:09

So if people are sitting here and hearing those, even just using the HPDI tool as the example, they go oh, that yellow is not really me. But it's not to say you can't do it. Of course you can. If you blocked out some time in your diary and had one question to ponder with a group of people and said, okay, what's the one challenge we can solve in our business? Or if we were to do one thing differently for our customers, what could it be?

Speaker 2: 25:31

And you sit in a room or in an outdoor space that might be a bit more inspiring with a group of people. Of course you can contribute to that. It just might not be your idea or fun. So it's just making sure that we also don't use these preferences as a crutch or an excuse, because it would be really easy for me to say, well, I don't want to do that, Like I don't want to talk about the execution and the plan because I'm not as green as you guys. But you've got to call BS on that, because really we've all got a whole brain and, yes, we've got some geniuses or some strengths that we can leverage off. But we can develop the skills when they're needed.

Speaker 1: 26:12

Yeah, beautiful, thank you. Well, I think we have covered the world of, I guess, whole brain thinking, unless you think that there's more to contribute. Maybe here we could dig deeper into how that applies in our household and how that applies to our in our workplace as well. But I think for now it feels like we've touched on that quite nicely.

Speaker 2: 26:34

Yeah, I think so. I guess my takeaway here is leverage your strengths. Believe in what you do bring to the table, because all workplaces and all teams need all of it. So whatever you've got, bring that with confidence and also just keep your mind on your blind spots. What maybe isn't your strength is then leverage people around you. Get them to bring that out in you and really make the most of it. But ultimately, own your style and it is enough and just build the team around you so that you've got that whole brain approach.

Speaker 1: 27:09

Yeah, beautiful, well said.

Speaker 2: 27:12

Thank you All right.

Speaker 1: 27:13

Thank you Well. Thanks for joining the Lead with Courage podcast, Koho Shiree, and until next time.

Speaker 2: 27:19

Thanks for having me. Until next time, go Lead with Courage.

Speaker 1: 27:22

Go Lead with Courage, thank you.