Josh Creamer | Equality and Empowerment | Lead with Courage

**Please note this episode discussed sensitive topics including suicide

When Josh Creamer decided to use his voice to echo the stories of his Indigenous community, he committed to a path of resilience and leadership. As one of Australia's few Indigenous barristers, Josh opens up about his journey from the responsibilities that anchored his youth to the courtroom battles that have come to define much of his life's work. His candid conversation brings us face to face with the raw emotions of his legal crusades in landmark human rights cases and the personal struggles that have shaped his pursuit of justice and truth.

Embark on a deeply moving exploration of the systemic barriers that contribute to Indigenous disadvantage, interwoven with Josh Creamer's personal narrative of loss, leadership, and the legacy he aims to leave. His legal battles, including those for the Palm Island and Stolen Wages cases, reveal a commitment to shifting the narrative for his people—a chapter of Australian history often overshadowed. Join us as Josh shares his quest to empower Indigenous voices in law through the establishment of a scholarship aimed at supporting Indigenous women—a testament to the transformative power of mentorship.

In the shadows of trauma and adversity, Josh reveals the sanctity of self-care and the strength found in life's most challenging moments. He shares the poignant story of his trek to Everest Base Camp, a physical and symbolic journey that honors his brother's memory while shining a light on mental health and suicide prevention. This episode is not just a conversation; it's an invitation to witness the remarkable resilience of one man who, in the face of generational trauma, continues to rise, lead, and inspire change for a more inclusive future.

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Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Yeah, great, and then can you just open up that note that I just sent you. Got it Awesome.

Speaker 2: 0:05

And that was a good start. Yeah, yeah, great start.

Speaker 1: 0:08

And it introduces a few topics for the yes and I had a little blurb start that pretty much you didn't use, but you did, so it was perfect. Yeah, it's fine, awesome.

Speaker 3: 0:19

Josh Kramer welcome to the Lead with Courage. Podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Glad I'm finally here. I think I'm probably episode 3000, but I made it on. You had my wife on very early. Yes, we did, and we've ran into each other in the street and talked about it, but I'm finally here with both of you. I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 1: 0:34

It's fantastic to have you here. Thanks for being here.

Speaker 3: 0:37

Yeah, thanks for being here. Don't know about episode 3000. I think if we're still here on episode 3000, well, hopefully make a couple of dollars for the podcast and change some lives along the way. But, yeah, really really grateful to have you here and, as you said, we've had Kara on and she was an incredible guest, and I've recently listened to your podcast that you recorded on ABC Conversations as well, which was incredible, really, really moving, and I'm excited to hopefully touch on a couple of those points today, as well as some others, I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 1:05

I'm looking forward to it, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Thank you, josh. I know, as Andy just referenced, like people may or may not know you as one of a handful of Indigenous baristas in Indigenous baristas in Australia. I've just stuffed that up. I'm going to say it again People may or may not know you, josh, as one of the handful of Indigenous baristas here in Australia. And also, something I want to talk to you about today is your second Everest-based camp trip, which is coming up at the time of this recording. It's next week. But before we jump into that and go through those stories, we'd love to ask you the question we start with every time, which is what does lead with courage mean to you?

Speaker 2: 1:44

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like I've been a leader since the age I was 12. My mother and stepfather separated when I was young. I was the oldest of four siblings. I played a role of the father in the house at that young age. I went to high school. I was one of 13 Indigenous kids in the school grade 12, out of school of 650 boys, and so people always looked at me as a leader, whether it's in family, whether it's in life, and now, as you say, I'm the second. Law's about hierarchy and I'm the second most senior Indigenous barista in the country, but there's only a handful of us, about 10 or 12. And for me it's always been about personal sacrifice, whether it's in the home or whether it's out there through my work, making those sacrifices, things that actually hurt you are tough to do, but you know they're going to have an impact on the community.

Speaker 1: 2:31

Yeah, thank you. Actually, when you say that about hurt you and the impact, I actually rewatched yesterday for the second time the Incarceration Nation special that you featured in. I say I watched it the second time and I really wanted to turn it off because it was always in tears. It was just so uncomfortable and hard to watch. And I didn't because exactly what you've just said, you can't just turn away.

Speaker 1: 2:56

And for those who may or may not know, what you've been involved in, you know, is two landmark class actions as a barista the Palm Island case, the Death in Custody and the Stolen Wages, queensland, which I believe is Australia's largest human rights case, and the cases that you've led.

Speaker 1: 3:15

We mentioned your phenomenal wife and she tells me that what she said to me, which I thought was fascinating for what I see Cara does in the world she says oh, I look at what my husband does and think I need to do more in the world because of the impact that you're having and what you're doing, which I just think is phenomenal, and the impact you have in the community. So could you tell us? Actually we are going to get into what you're doing now, the conversations with the elders, but I would like to know a little bit about your early life. You just mentioned about growing up in North Queensland. I would say potentially, as you said, being a father figure to your younger siblings. Potentially life wasn't going to be predicted to be in this position. Could you tell us a little bit about your younger years, josh?

Speaker 2: 4:05

Probably no truer statement was ever said than what you just said about and life was never going to be this way. Man Eyes is a tough town. I was there this week actually seeing family. I brought my grandad's place a few years ago and all my family live there now. It's funny because I wanted to keep that going on, but it was a challenging life In our household. There was a lot of domestic violence with my mother and my stepfather and so I grew up in that and it has an impact. That legacy of trauma has a real impact on you.

Speaker 2: 4:35

A lot of kids I know are tough kids. Primary school they were pretty well raising themselves as their parents were working out on cattle stations or their parents were up at Aboriginal communities like Mornington Island. At 10, 12, 13, we were just kicking around. We were in charge of our own lives in a lot of ways. My mother was there, but you just grow up with your own sense of responsibility and you do whatever you want. I can see how young kids in those communities get in a lot of trouble because they're out there in the hangar with older kids and things go bad. I grew up in that environment, I thought, and my mother. Fortunately, I think, she left my stepfather. And I say fortunately because there was probably two outcomes for that Someone would have died or someone would have been in jail, and so it took a lot for her to move away from her family. She's the youngest of 12. I grew up with this massive Aboriginal family. I feel like I'm related to everybody in Mount Isa and my grandfather was there. He's a real stalwart of the community. She had to leave all that. I remember on my wedding day I was about 30 years old and I said at this age, my mother was leaving Mount Isa with three kids in tow and probably $50 in the bank.

Speaker 2: 5:43

I grew up in that environment, probably when I started high school. It was funny. I remember when it started in high school we were all. We probably all had PTSD. To tell the truth, in my household we were just shadows. We lingered and we didn't really exist as a family.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Things turned a corner for me, actually, when I started grade 10. I just started working in this butcher shop after school, six days a week. A bit of extra money for out home made a real difference. My own independence Also gave me an opportunity to have my own identity, and that was a real, as I say, a turning point for me.

Speaker 2: 6:17

I finished school, I did an apprenticeship as a butcher. I made that commitment. I was always keen to go on and do other things in the world and one of the things my mother was really good at was just instilling in us an importance of having our own ideas and a good sense of what was right and wrong, a good sense of social justice issues, indigenous issues. I remember being 10, 12 years old and she'd asked me about these things. In my opinion and it's actually a similar conversation to my nine year old daughter now that developed into an interest in politics and law and social justice and all those issues. I thought I'd work in the mines. Actually, when I finished my apprenticeship, there was something I wanted to do, because all my family worked in the mines all the men. I found my way to law school and 20 years later I'm, say, one of the few indigenous lawyers in the country.

Speaker 3: 7:04

That's incredible, really incredible. Talk about rags to riches, or it's a terrible expression really but you know, kind of coming from the back to the front.

Speaker 2: 7:14

I say the bush to the beach because I lived in your Pernincetia Cleansdown, and then to Brisbane. So there's the three limbs of my life.

Speaker 1: 7:22

Yeah, bush beach, brisbane, the three Vs yeah, amazing, I guess, if we can just touch on some of the work that you're doing at the moment. When I was looking at the stolen wages, I think that a lot of people are familiar with the stolen generation. But then can you tell us a little bit more about the work you're doing, the travelling, the conversations?

Speaker 2: 7:46

Yeah, look, I've always travelled as a big part of my work and most of that time I've spent in Aboriginal communities or travelling around the country talking to Aboriginal people about their lives. You touched on a little bit the Parmolan case with the death of Mronji Dumanji, but that was 2015, 16, and then after that I moved into these historical class actions. Class actions were primarily suing the government on behalf of Aboriginal people for wrongs that have been committed from, usually from about 1930 to 1976, but it actually starts a little bit before that period. And so Queensland, we talk about stolen wages. It's pretty simple and I'll just give you a little bit of the history. But just prior to colonisation, they say there's around 200,000 Aboriginal people in Torres Strait Islanders in Queensland. That population was reduced down to 25,000, and then in 1897, 22,000 of those were moved on to mission settlements and reserves.

Speaker 2: 8:37

That system stayed in place till 1986. Under the system, if you're Aboriginal, you would be educated to the grade four and at the age of about 12 or 13, you'd go and work. Men would work primarily on cattle stations and women would be sent out to work as domestics all over Queensland. Quite interesting, there's so many files on these individual files because everybody was under a high level of surveillance and so you could write to the local protector or the local mission and say could you send me down to Indigenous girls to clean my house for 12 months and they'd be sent down, they'd live in Brisbane behind your house and they'd clean and do whatever you asked. And under the system they had to work. They had to work, obviously, for minimum 40 hours a week and instead of being paid by the employer, it was under the law that the employer was required to pay the government and instead of passing that money on to the individuals who earned it, the government just kept it sort of a trust case, we could say. And so that system lasted, as I say, till about 1976, it started to wind down, but 1986 was the end of it completely.

Speaker 2: 9:39

But that's Queensland. There's some real nuances. I spent a lot of time. So I've worked primarily in Northern Territory WA in Queensland and there's some different issues across those jurisdictions, for example in the Kimberleys where I spent the last six years working. I love the Kimberleys, it's a beautiful place, but they just had slavery. We just settled that case recently for $180 million. It's yet to be approved by the court. But 1920 was the second wave of settlement in the Kimberleys. So you can still talk to people who can tell you about how their grandparents and their parents were treated and shot and all this type of stuff. But they just worked as slaves on missions, slaves on missions and also cattle stations in those regions. They just didn't get paid. There's no money cycling through the system. So it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 10:22

We talk about Australia's history and when you start to dig deep and I've worked on the stolen generations case in Northern Territory we've got $430 million settlement for that. I started the case I was sitting around the table with a few elders and they said, let's do it. I said, why not? And so you know I like the Northern Territory. For example, the economy was so small they had to send everybody out. So the stolen generation people in the territory were sent to missions all over the country and different places.

Speaker 2: 10:49

Queensland's stolen generation's probably a bit different than that. When they were put into missions at the age of six you were separated from your family, couldn't have contact with them. So there's this history. I'm really interested. I've spent years working on it. I'm interested in where we're getting to this next stage because there's a really strong commitment about truth telling, and these are really powerful stories. I work there every day and hear this stuff and I feel like my obligation is to share those stories. But I think once we all start to understand the history a bit better, we'll feel differently and maybe have different goals and ambitions for the future.

Speaker 3: 11:21

I hope so. Yeah, I know we will.

Speaker 2: 11:23

I mean, we're a decent group of people and I think if we can be engaged both intellectually and emotionally, we'll start to understand what these issues are and, as a nation, want to make changes.

Speaker 1: 11:35

I love that optimism and I share that wish and hope and vision as well. I know we had the recent referendum and I don't know if that's something you want to talk about or not talk about. I suppose the question I have in regards to it specifically is what's next? But if you want to discuss or talk about how that was, as an Indigenous man, for you, but otherwise we're just looking to the future.

Speaker 2: 11:58

Look, I never put all my eggs in my basket. I like taking a lot of risks, but any investment is always 100% risk. I think about and the voice was 100% risk and certainly I mean hope my wife and two of our kids, our two daughters. We featured in the Kira Male just the weekend before we had the yes shirts on and then Kevin got some photos of us, so we are certainly front and centre in that and I did a number of speaking engagements on the issue.

Speaker 2: 12:23

It's a tough one because it's a really intellectual legal argument and for me, someone who really prides themselves on being able to take complicated legal issues and explain them in a very simple form to people, it was very difficult to do that with the voice.

Speaker 2: 12:38

And look in hindsight, there's a lot of ways you can criticise it, but certainly the option that was on the table and I was in support of it because I understood it definitely had flaws. It's hard to articulate and, as someone who a lawyer who looks for power and looks for things to be able to use to bring proceedings in court, it didn't have any of that ability. But look, as I say, I think the next thing is really truth telling and treating. I know Queensland have made a very strong commitment to that and I, as have a number of states, and actually over the next month or so I think Queensland's going to roll out some work around the truth telling. So I'm pretty excited about that stage because I know the stories and I know how people will be able to relate to those stories and I know the emotion and the depth and the impact on people, and so for me that is really important.

Speaker 2: 13:25

And in hindsight, it's probably something that should have happened first, in the same way that South Africa had their Truth and Reconciliation Commission and, in Canada, had similar processes. People have to understand why they, why we're asking them to take the step like the voice, and in the absence or the abstract, that's difficult to do.

Speaker 1: 13:43

Yeah, fair, fair. What are some of the lessons from the stories? I mean you said to us, off air, you've thousands of conversations is that right? With indigenous people across, in all parts of country, across this land. So what are some of those key stories that we can learn from?

Speaker 2: 14:03

Yeah, so the cases I've worked on. There would be very few Aboriginal families in the Torres Strait, torres Strait Islanders, queensland Northern Territory and WA who wouldn't have been impacted by the case, whether it's native title, whether it's class actions. We represent the thousands of people and I say we because there is always a big team on these things and I'm just one cog in the wheel. But for me, the most challenging part has been understanding that indigenous disadvantage in this country has been caused by laws and people might have, you know, bureaucrats and politicians might have very good will out the time and the Protection Acts in Queensland is a very good example. You're able to be educated, but you're only able to be educated to grade four. It captures your potential.

Speaker 2: 14:47

You have to work, but your work, what you earn, is not yours, and under that legislation, actually any property and all that means, basically anything you own automatically became an asset for the crown. Vested in the crown. We say so. The inability to work and buy your own home has impacted three or four generations of Aboriginal families. They still live in poverty today, despite the fact that great grandparents or their grandparents or their parents work, sometimes 68 hours a week, in a cattle station up north or out west and never earned anything. And so that for me, is a real challenge, and I see the structural barriers that the law has created and really entrenched this disadvantage.

Speaker 2: 15:30

And so, being a lawyer, you know you want to change the world in a way. Well, I certainly want to, and something Kaan and I have tried to do through the scholarship we've set up. But you see, these issues, you can bring a really unique perspective and you try and make changes. But there's the change through the legal system, and then I think there's the change through being able to influence politicians and others through through decisions they make and actually just bring in different perspective, and that's why diversity in leadership is really important. Right, you have a different perspective.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Yeah, absolutely, can you tell us a bit about the scholarship?

Speaker 2: 16:04

Yeah, so Kaan and I. Actually, I was turning 40 and I said to Kaan I want to do something different. I just do not want to get, have a birthday present and people buy me things I don't want and don't need them. Over that I don't drink and I haven't drunk for 20 years and people bring bottles of wine and stuff and there's only so many times you can re-gift those things.

Speaker 2: 16:22

So if you're ever looking for a, bottle of wine just come around and we've got stacks. But and I knew from the work I did I needed more Indigenous women side by side with me and I've been really strong and encouraging to Indigenous women in Queensland to come to the bar and they've been there now five or six years Because I mean, you know my anecdotal experience is Indigenous women who were alive during this period I'm talking about, you know, the mid 1930s up, suffered horrendous levels of abuse, whether it's on cattle stations or whether it's in missions or whether with private employers, and people don't understand that. About the way Hillstrike, you know where people, aboriginal people, walked off and they said it's about the land. But if you read it, it's actually the first thing they say is you've been treating up women really badly. And so I needed Indigenous women to sit down next to me, side by side, and do the work I do and really pick up the baton.

Speaker 2: 17:15

And we, kara and I, have a great relationship with Griffith University and we sat down with them and said we want to do this and they came back with some even better ideas. So not just money, but how about you mentor, how about your support to apply and find employment opportunities? And we said look, we'll commit to 25,000. That was two years ago. We've raised over $200,000 now and we've had the first two recipients come through Alicia George, who was the first. She just let us know the other day that her job next year is going to be working with the Chief Justice. You know we sort of mentor them. Kelly Hughes has just come back. She spent six months in Canada so we spent a lot of time trying to support them. I realized they've got all the academic ability, they're brilliant and we don't select the recipients Griffith actually do. But you know they've got these great results, they've got all the work experience, they've worked out all these great firms, but they don't have the network and they don't have that additional support.

Speaker 2: 18:10

And I feel like sometimes the conversations we're having is if you're a second or third generation lawyer, they're very much a conversation you'd be having with your own children and in a very informal sense you've got a barbecue and hey, you know I've had a young Indigenous lawyer around my house and talking about what you should do and I said to him Matt, look, I'll get your job tomorrow. And I called up my friends who work in class action. We got them job tomorrow and you know, being able to guide that sort of path, that if you don't have those relationships and law and you don't have that network, that we can really bring that. And the financial contribution we make to the students is important, because when you're at uni you've got no money. But secondly, that mentoring and that really big network of support is actually the key. I hope if we can make a little two or three or five percent impact on their careers and that's the sort of stuff that we can bring to it, so very proud of that. We're actually just about to come up to our third recipient. I think applications close very soon and so looking forward to see who that is.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Indigenous women towards the end of the degree at Griffith University have an interest in going to the bar. We'll support you.

Speaker 1: 19:17

That's incredible.

Speaker 3: 19:18

It is incredible. I can only imagine how rewarding that is for you.

Speaker 2: 19:23

Yeah, actually it's an interesting point because I was having a conversation this week about leadership and the greatest I've realized over the years more recently, probably the last five years the greatest reward is bringing that next generation through and I really hope that I can personally do things that to make an impact, whether it's increase the number of Indigenous judges or increase the number of Indigenous barristers or lawyers generally and people don't know I exist and people don't know what I do. Yeah, in 20, 30 years time, someone had the advantage of going through something, or you're able to make a change, you're able to talk to a politician and it started a bit of a movement, and now that some young kids benefiting 20 years later, that would be really special. So, yeah, leadership for me in law is about bringing this next generation of Indigenous lawyers through and providing both an example but a real level of support to be able to do that.

Speaker 3: 20:19

Yeah, incredible, really leaving a legacy.

Speaker 2: 20:22

Yeah, hopefully a legacy that people don't know.

Speaker 1: 20:25

I love the humility of that, you're like I don't need the kudos, I just want to see the impact.

Speaker 2: 20:29

Yeah, that's right. I don't need the. I'm happy with my own life and the things I do and I don't want to be someone who's necessarily up in the headlines for that type of thing. But I want to make an impact and I want people to be able to benefit if there is a next generation.

Speaker 1: 20:43

That's incredible. I imagine that just listening the job as difficult as I imagine it to be in hearing the conversations from elders and having those just listening to people gives them back something as well just to be heard. How do you feel about that?

Speaker 2: 21:02

There's a few points. So you know, all my work is really steeped in trauma and so you really have to take a, you have to look after yourself and I've learned that. I did the palm island case and let's say there are 25 witnesses. I worked on that for a couple of years and all of those witnesses would have broken down and cried in the box three or four times. You know the judge would have to stop. It's very traumatic. And then working on these other cases, you know understanding history, how people were treated and those people who are still alive today they can tell you about it. So there's that part.

Speaker 2: 21:31

But the stolen gen is a really good example and when we sat down with them they said we've been fighting for this for 20 years, since the Bring them Home report. We said look, we can't promise you we can win, but we will have a crack. That's all we can do. And we started the case and a short time later the prime minister jumped on the TV and said and we apologize for what happened we're gonna provide I think it was $380 million in this redress scheme. And for me it was a validation of people's experience, because when I had that initial meeting up in Darwin.

Speaker 2: 22:07

People were hurt from what happened to them, but there are more hurt.

Speaker 2: 22:10

The fact that there was sort of a part of the media or part of the belief out there is this didn't exist.

Speaker 2: 22:16

There were a couple of stolen generation cases that had lost, and so it was an easy target and some of them in particular, really upset about the fact that they weren't being listened to and people didn't believe this story. And so the validation of that experience and it was very much similar feeling in Western Australia because that case I think we announced the settlement towards the end of 2023. And I had a couple of calls from people and they were like this is really important to recognize what happened to my grandmother or what happened to my mother, and so being able to when you sit down with people and you realize they've been carrying this story for three generations, they're carrying their grandmother's story and their grandfather's story and their parent's story and their uncle's story, so to be able to bring some validation, some end to that journey. We could never totally undo what happened and we could never really compensate people for what they lost, but we can bring some end, some finish, so the next generation hopefully don't have to carry that burden.

Speaker 3: 23:20

Yeah, it's so. It's incredible to hear you say that and I'll kind of get goosebumps when you say it, because you really see it is that, I guess, resolution? You know that they can process through their trauma, the generational trauma that kind of gets stored up, and they can really I don't know, I guess provide some clarity for their generations, for the future.

Speaker 2: 23:43

Well, it's a truth telling point, right.

Speaker 2: 23:45

Yeah, it's a pretty hard to deny once a prime minister goes on TV and says we're gonna we're sorry for what happened, we're gonna set up this redress scheme, we're gonna pay $380 million. That is huge, you know, and people can get in the media and criticize what was said or what was done, but for them to experience that it's very much in the vein of the Kevin Wright apology saying story, as he did to the stolen generations, and so that I hope that brings some comfort to people. That's all I can say.

Speaker 1: 24:17

Yeah, because I imagine no amount of money really makes that disappear, you know. So yes, there's compensation, but to be heard and the validation, I imagine that that goes a long way, a gesture or some kind of acknowledgement.

Speaker 2: 24:32

Yeah, and particularly so Queensland, and the stolen wages. We could trace all the money and we can tell they built Redcliffe Hospital. We can tell they built different things.

Speaker 1: 24:39

The powerhouse. I heard you say we can tell they can build a house.

Speaker 2: 24:41

So, yeah, it's like you know, the rest of the state, probably the country, benefited from that labor and that work and the Indigenous people missed out, they horribly missed out. And so you know, if there's something little I can do to bring some recognition to that and, like I say, I think truth telling will be a really important part of that going forward.

Speaker 1: 25:00

What does that practically look like with the truth telling?

Speaker 2: 25:04

Yeah, queensland have passed some legislation, passed the Treaty Act, and what it'll look like in Queensland it's actually set out in the act A five-person panel will conduct an inquiry over the next three years to investigate the whole range of the impact of colonisation, and so I think it'll be very much like a Royal Commission and people may be familiar with those where you've got lawyers, retired judges, experts in their field conducting an inquiry into all aspects really of government conduct, probably prior to colonisation. So the interactions between the British and what we wanted to do here in Australia. You know the early setup of the New South Wales colony and how that impacted Queensland and then probably the Queensland's interesting just because something happened in New South Wales in 1788 had no direct impact here on the ground. It wasn't until the 1830s when you had people like Leichart come through Queensland and do the exploration, and then 1850, you had the settlement started rolling through. So you know those sort of impacts.

Speaker 2: 26:09

I not only sit down and speak to people about our history, but I really work with some of the best anthropologists, historians, archaeologists, linguists in Australia and so I get the privilege of reading a lot of expert reports and seeing a lot of documents, and people will be surprised how many documents there are out there about this period but really examining all that history and putting it out there for the community to understand what has happened and what has the impact been, yeah, it's incredibly important and I really you can see there's, I believe, from where I sit there's a shift in awareness and conversation, but there's still a lot of lack of education and transparency.

Speaker 1: 26:50

It's a deeper conversation even, like in the education system, how much the kids are educated on the history. I don't know what your thoughts you have on that.

Speaker 2: 27:01

Being a dad as well, yeah, no, I feel like my nine-year-old daughter has a better grass or Australia's history than most adults actually, and I talk to her in a very child-focused way. I don't give her the hard stuff, certainly haven't let her watch incarceration nation, but I say, look, dad's going out and working on the Stolen Generation case this week. This is what happened in the Northern Territory or this is what happened in Queensland. I'm working on Stolen Wages. I remember Kara and my travel really impacts her and she's a busy, she's a superstar, she's busy, she's got three kids and her husband spends $50 a month at the 50 Centuries time running around the country. So it hurts Such a hum. I was working on a case. I just got back from Dumanji this week and I remember when this case first came up I sent Kara the Four Corners episode because and that episode showed that there were three people in Dumanji, so Aboriginal community in Queensland which was actually set up under that protection era legislation.

Speaker 2: 27:57

They're in heart failure. They went up to the hospital weeks on, weeks and they were giving Pandita on, sent home and they all died. And I remember I sent her the episode and I was like this is what I'm doing today. You know like don't give me any trouble when I get home. I know you're having a bad week, but this is my day. I'm talking to people about how their loved ones died, and so every now and then she gives you a bit of space, but it's yeah, you're right on the cusp of it. It's pretty challenging work and it's emotionally draining and it's very traumatic, but you feel like you can make a difference and you keep going.

Speaker 2: 28:30

I just want to say a good example. It's sort of out of the left field, but I remember in law we had this president's dinner as a law society dinner and I'd go and I was the only black guy there and I'd come out yeah yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 2: 28:43

And I'd come home to car and I was like this hurts, but I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep going until there's a table of us. And I went one year. So year after year, I went one year. There was two tables and one of the guys I know in Dijon Sky won about 80% of the award and I was like that's it, I don't need to come again. So I probably haven't been for six or seven years. But you know, you keep slogging away, you'll have people coming up behind you and I always just think that's a good example of how things change.

Speaker 1: 29:08

Yeah, I'm so excited to see where your kids no pressure on the three of them, but you know where your kids end up, I believe and tell me if I've got this right, but in and around the 26th January your eldest had a few words to say at school. I think the teacher maybe said something extremely culturally insensitive or ignorant.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Well, eden, eden's like me. She just brings a different perspective and so and I realized over time that people don't necessarily it's not they disagree or they don't, it's just they haven't been exposed to a different view, and it's not. It's not malice being malice or anything like that, it's just actually I never thought about that. I had this conversation this week because I've got a real interest in tech and I was meeting with this tech guy and I was talking about the indigenous stuff and he's just never heard it, and it's not. He was absorbing it like a sponge.

Speaker 1: 30:01

Is that the story and the history?

Speaker 2: 30:02

Yeah, he just never got that perspective. And so you know whether it's the education system or the workplace or wherever- and. Eden is very much. She's highly intelligent and she gets it because I talked to her about things and she's interested, she learns, she's. I don't know if you've ever read the book Sapiens, but she's reading the.

Speaker 1: 30:21

Sapiens, by the way. Yeah, I was like wow nine years old. Wow.

Speaker 2: 30:26

But I know the teacher said something and she said well, you know, I've got a different view and actually her view is more for Kara's view on Australia Day and Eden's view is more stricter than mine. I'm I'm worried about trying to save people from dying in the Dumas U hospital or you know something else, but she's like no, we don't do it. You know, we don't celebrate Australia Day for these reasons and you've got to back your kids. And I'm glad that she A firstly had a different perspective. B she felt comfortable to be able to articulate that and C she could come home and tell her parents and yeah, no, she's very much of her own mind and difficult to as a parent to try and manage her sometimes.

Speaker 2: 31:03

But you know I think I've said it before I always think kids are born perfect and parents stuff them up. So I'm just hoping I don't stuff up my kids too much.

Speaker 1: 31:12

Oh, I love that, I just yeah, what a proud parent moment, I think that must have been for you guys.

Speaker 3: 31:18

Yeah, that's, it's incredible. It's incredible Kind of a heart swells with pride.

Speaker 2: 31:23

Yeah, the kids are really impressive and you know they've got their mum there and I do good stuff. My mother's done some really amazing things too, so they've got plenty of examples really close to home and actually, you know that's been a real pride having Kara being such a leader and having two girls and being able to see that. I know that will set them in really good stead going forward in their lives.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Yes, incredible.

Speaker 3: 31:47

Josh, how do you you talk about kind of all these times that you go to Indigenous communities, you talk to you know elders and called thousands of hours worth of stories and imagine as an Indigenous man they'd be, you know, somewhat triggering for you as well from time to time. I assume that to be the case. We're all human, after all. The question I'd really love to know is kind of what do you do for you in terms of, like, restorative practices? I guess you know you kind of always withdrawing when you go to those places, maybe not always deposits.

Speaker 2: 32:24

Yeah, it's interesting, I lost my youngest brother to suicide on Boxing Day 2022. And that really knocked me around and it's given me probably 12, 14 months to be able to reflect. Actually, and I realize I've actually just grown up with a lot of trauma. It's been sort of. Someone asked me the other day about traumatic events and I think I probably stopped about 40 or 50. And you know whether that was suicides or a whole range of things, and so I've just grown up in that environment.

Speaker 2: 32:53

It's a brutal environment and you talk about resilience. Well, I've been there, but also too, and you, it is a real burden to go out and hear these stories and sometimes to be the only Indigenous person on the team. You know, someone emailed me a judge actually I've got a good relationship with it and a lot of respect and he was doing some stuff around history and emailed me some stuff and I to read and I said, oh, judge, you know it's always brutal. It's always tough to read how my people were treated, and he just was like oh sorry, josh, you know I didn't think about that, but I think and this is what I say about the personal sacrifice Like I really mean it. I'm out there doing it and I know it takes a little piece of me all the time. I know it's damaging. But you know I debrief, I talk to people, I try and stay fit. There's a whole range of things I do, but it takes a toll. It takes a toll on me, it takes a toll on the family. When I come home it takes me. It can be, depending on the stories. It takes me a few weeks to settle back into the groove, depending on how intense they are.

Speaker 2: 34:00

And you talked about incarceration nation. The day I saw the screening of it, I was sitting in my motel room in Darwin and I actually was just interviewing Indigenous women that day on stolen wages and they were all telling me how they rate between the ages of five and 10. And I come home and I watch incarceration nation. I'm like, oh man, this is brutal. It's just a day and. But you have to be smart and you have to realise that you can't help anyone unless you're in a good place. And I knew that earlier on in my career. You get yourself there's no point going out there damaged, you know kind of make an impact. You've always got to be and there is a bit of sort of self-importance in that You've always got to look after yourself because otherwise it will slowly and slowly just you know work you down. And whether you're in criminal law and you deal with all the child molestation stuff, I couldn't do that. But or whether you're in the work, like mine, and it's 10 years of trauma, you've got to look after yourself.

Speaker 1: 34:55

I'm so sorry about your brother. I remember actually sitting at lunch with your wife and she said, oh, I'm solo parenting at the moment, so, okay, you know what's happening. And she said, oh, josh, is it? Josh has gone to Everest. I said, oh, really, is that right? Is it something he's had on his bucket list for a while? And she said, oh no, there was about a 10 day window, which sounds fun, but obviously that came as a part of your brother's, of the loss of your brother, and if you're happy to maybe share a little bit around, I guess, your experience and what you want to share there and tell us about Everest what you've learned there's a lot there. You start and go where you'd like to go.

Speaker 2: 35:42

Look like I say I was the oldest of four. My brother was born when I was 15 years old, and so I was very much like a father to him, particularly those first five or six years when I still lived in your poon, and even after, you know, we'd ring each other every day or I'd ring him, and so when he got to sort of the age of about 15, he started to have some mental health issues. Just every now and then things would get, the dial would go up and it wasn't anything like you know you'd have to be hospitalized, but he was just there was a bit of instability and you know that was it sort of became him. Actually he passed away at 26, but you know that's 11 years of it, and so you know he had a family, he had a job, he had all those things. He had a relationship bust up and he had another partner. So you know he lived his life.

Speaker 2: 36:29

But we were all home Christmas, so back up in your poon at my mother's house, and we were having just it was an amazing Christmas. Sometimes they're really good, sometimes they weren't, but we've all got kids now, so we're sort of getting into it for them, and then the next day I get this call and you know he means partner to have an argument, and I go out there and if, and you know the next call, less than an hour or so later my mother says my brother's dead. So I get out there, my sister's out there, and I think there's two parts that are really challenging. Obviously, the loss, the experiencing that, and Cara said to me at one stage you know you can live with grief, it's a guilt and regret that'll really get you down and I've had my fair share of guilt and regret with this one.

Speaker 2: 37:19

But the next. So he's there, I'm there, the ambulance there, I end up about three ambulance buses and police and my sister found him and she was trying to revive him and all this stuff. And so the next four hours firstly the first hour is they're trying to keep him alive. So I'm watching them trying to keep my brother alive. That's brutal.

Speaker 3: 37:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:41

But the police and the ambulance were just so respectful and actually made what they made. What could have just absolutely disintegrated me just a little bit better by providing the support. And then they don't move the body right. I never realized this and never been through it. So you've got to wait for forensics to come. They do their thing. You've got to wait for the funeral home to come do their thing. So I'm with my brother's body for four hours in my sister. Very fortunate, one of my good school friends had come down. He was very close and he sat with us. So I think there's a trauma from the loss, but there's a trauma from that four or five hours as well. It really hit me and I had.

Speaker 2: 38:23

It was a tough journey coming out of Christmas. Christmas is always an amazing period for us. My sister's born on the 1st of December. My mother's just born on the 26th of January, so we've got these two bookends. I'm born on the 29th of December. We've got all these birthdays in between that my brother was the fourth of January. So I always had a really nice time and a really special time, and this happened to my brother.

Speaker 2: 38:44

A few days later it was my birthday. I couldn't even talk to people, I didn't even want to acknowledge it was my birthday and I just went through a tough few months and Kar and I had gone down to the Gold Coast for it was Easter holidays around March, april and it was just crap. I didn't want to be there and I just made sure the family knew I didn't want to be there and we got back and she's like you better do something about this, like you've got to get yourself in shape, and I was like I want to do something physically and mentally challenging. And, like you say, I said Everest. I went and paid for it. Four or five days later I was sitting at the airport, ran into someone I knew and I was like why am I doing this? But I did it and no training.

Speaker 2: 39:24

I think I walked the dog up Balmoral Hill a few times so, yeah, I rent and brought everything I needed to buy and so I just I needed it. Actually I needed that and it was a huge shift mentally. And I think it was a shift mentally because I realized on that journey I have everything I need in life right here. I have that mental focus, I have the resilience, I have the determination. You know I don't need the nice flashy things I've got nice flashy. I just need a little bit of food to not starve. I need to keep a little bit warm, not necessarily stop me from freezing, but you know I'm sort of in that point and myself and I can get through the toughest conditions, like I have got through for the rest. You know most of my life and so that sort of journey was really really special and it shifted me dramatically from where I was to when I come back.

Speaker 2: 40:18

But I, you know, I got to base camp and I mean it's eight or nine days walking or whatever it is, joined up with an organized tour and there was six Australians, two Americans. Just really lovely people really. The Aussie guys were great. They were a little bit younger and I was like, oh, what are they going to be like? And they're just really welcoming. And sometimes with the US guys, you know, traveling with US guys, you probably tolerate them more than you accept them.

Speaker 1: 40:40

But there was a bit of that.

Speaker 2: 40:41

But they were great too. And um, I got to base camp and it was hugely emotional for me. You know, the day before I was getting altitude sickness and you get a bit spaced out when you got altitude sickness and my head's rolling around I was a little bit of. I was like you know, I'm doing this journey for my brother and I was physically tough. And I got to base camp and I got there and I just sat down and I started crying. So I was like I was doing this for my brother. You know, like that's what the journey was about and it was pretty special to do that. And I realized and then the next day that goes like do you want to walk out? So it's free of way out Days, walk out. I was like I'm hiring a chopper. So I called a chopper and I chop it out of there, and I was like back to Kathmandu in 30 degrees and I don't think I left my room for 36 hours, like I walked into the motel I said give me the best room you've got.

Speaker 2: 41:32

And I was like you know, some $200 a night place in Kathmandu and I just didn't leave. I had to four out. Firstly, you know, I had to eat something and then I jumped back. But while I was over there I thought I would love to have done something like this with my brother, and even my other brother I mentioned him the other day would he come on this? But you know that's not possible. And I came back and I was like I really want to do this journey with people I care about, and so we're going, as you say, next week, in four days I think three or four days and I'm going with 11 people. I live with my friends and some of their connections and it's just, it's going to be such a different journey and that was that journey was about, you know, trying to get through the loss of my brother, and I feel like this will be a little bit about the legacy he's leaving, celebrating that.

Speaker 1: 42:20

How beautiful. Yeah, and your fundraising for this one too.

Speaker 2: 42:22

Yeah, that's right, so really good. One of the guys who's coming. I went to uni with Dr Clinton Schultz. He actually started Sabar, which is that non-alcoholic beverages business.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Great friend, his wife. I've known her for 25 years since she grew up in New Pune they're down the Gold Coast but he also is a psychologist. He works for Black Dog Institute and he leads up their Indigenous Lived Experience Center and which is all about suicide and crisis prevention, and so I wanted to raise some money for that and I said how about we just, you know, try and get to the $50,000 and we're a few days from leaving or about $40,000 and hopefully we get a bit more coming in. But yeah, being able to I mean all of us on the journey probably feels like we've had some association with that issue and just to be able to do something positive and hopefully have an impact out in communities is going to be really important. And you know, it's about sort of always trying to use my profile and my things to make a difference, and that's going to be something important for all of us on this journey.

Speaker 1: 43:21

So great, so great. I love seeing the photo of you from your first trip with the Aboriginal flag up at that big rock where it's etched in the Everest Base Camp on the rock.

Speaker 2: 43:32

Yeah, I look, I'm always. For most people, I'm probably the one or two Aboriginal people actually know, right, and so you're always under a myoscope and you've always got an exciting example. And I did that when, on the walk, I felt like, well, I'm representing not just me and my family, I'm representing my mob, my community, and I carried that flag. I didn't have time to understand what would be at Base Camp, but I thought there will be something there so people can recognize. And I get there and there's this. You know, 20 ton rock or something. I'm like, all right, this flag's coming out. I've been carrying it, waiting for it and I got the peak. It was great.

Speaker 1: 44:05

And this time with 11 of you, 12 of you. Yeah, 11 of you 11 of you up again. I reckon that's the remake, the photo.

Speaker 2: 44:13

Yeah, it will be, and one of the guys is from the Torres Strait too, so they'll you know, we'll have the Torres Strait Islanders represented, and I think it's just going to be a journey I'm really looking forward to that bonding and that relationship that you'll form.

Speaker 2: 44:24

That will form because I know how tough it is and I know the challenges will go through, but I know that I think all of us will bond and have another layer of our relationship after that experience. So, yeah, it's going to be pretty special and actually a few people are talking about not this group, but they've got some people talking about 2025. So I'm like you want to come, I'll take you.

Speaker 1: 44:43

Yeah, I was wondering is this going to be an ongoing kind of pilgrimage experience? It's phenomenal.

Speaker 3: 44:50

I might join you for that one, if you'll have me.

Speaker 2: 44:52

Yeah, no, it's a great crew and actually what's quite interesting is a lot of people who next year are in business not necessarily an indigenous group, but in business and interested and you know, you become a bit of a beacon or a bit of an excuse and people say, yeah, let's do it. And so no, it is, it's. I love the Himalayas and I was sitting at the airport and Catman do on the first journey I was like do I need to go home or could I just stay here for under six months? There are probably four reasons why I needed to go home. So they want out. But there's certainly other tracks I want to do for myself, but through the Himalayas it's just it's another world up there. But being able to take a group to Everest every year, why not? I'm on board for that.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Yeah, it's somewhere we've traveled pretty well across the globe and it is one of the places I haven't been and I imagine it's on top of my list actually, and I imagine, regardless of your religious view, it's such a spiritual place.

Speaker 2: 45:50

Highly spiritual. You either feel like you're up there with the gods or this is you know the gods live here, or the mountains are gods, because the mountains have their own personalities. And it's interesting when you're flying to Lukla, which is about 2,800 meters, there's no motors, there's no cars or anything after that, so you know everything is you're either carrying it around or there's yaks and there's no electricity in a lot of places, and so it's just. It's really you're whine back the clock to the bare essentials of things that you need to survive. But it is a highly spiritual experience and I've chatted to a few people and everyone who says they've been there has it's impacted them in some way.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Yes, yes, how incredible a couple of nights to go.

Speaker 2: 46:32

Yeah, yeah, the final countdown, so I'm looking forward to it actually.

Speaker 1: 46:35

By the time this is released, you will have been and gone, so we might need to check back in. We will check back in with you and throw it on the end of the episode, just to give a little wrap up on the takeaways. Yeah, that's incredible, incredible. Do you have any more questions about Everest or?

Speaker 3: 46:54

Got lots of questions about. Everest actually, but they we can maybe go into that at another stage but the I'm running a marathon this year and did a half marathon yesterday. That was interesting. I'm feeling the effects of that in my body today and my mind to an extent. And the Everest or a Patagonia trek has been high, high on my list because I think it is kind of about meeting your edge mentally and physically. Do you think if you had to choose between the physical and the mental, what was harder?

Speaker 2: 47:30

Oh, it's a mental journey and it's a good example. I'm glad you mentioned the marathons because when I was over there I realized it really struck. I started to understand why people start to do ultra marathons, why you hit 40. And you're like I'm going to start doing this. And I realized it because we don't have you get to our stage in life. You don't have a lot of challenges, you have a really good career, you've got the family stuff sorted, life's really good, I don't need to do anything else and I'm going to retire pretty successful, like I could pull up shop tomorrow and just game over. But and so you don't feel like I certainly don't feel like you're out there pushing your edge all the time. So you don't need to do it every day, but every now and then you need to be alive, right, you need to live. And so I started to understand why, okay, I'm doing this journey. I know why now people do ultra marathons. I know why they start doing marathons and it was very much like that.

Speaker 2: 48:17

Physically, you can get through it. It's just I remember day two on the journey and it's the mental challenge it's trying to getting up every day where you're absolutely freezing. You feel like crap. You're spaced out from the altitude and just put one foot after the other and just knowing that you know what, even in the toughest times, you can still get through. And so your experience with that and wanting to do EBC Basecamp, I understand that, cause I did that. That really struck me last year and so I came back and actually I flew back. I went out to Alice Springs a week or two after and they've got this the Monster MacDonald run and all challenge out there and you do 25, 50, 125, 250. And I came back and I was like I'm gonna do that soon.

Speaker 2: 49:02

Because of the same feeling you probably get from them doing the marathon, running that challenge, where you don't always get that once you get to a certain point in your life, in your career.

Speaker 3: 49:14

Yep, yep, that really resonates, Really really resonates.

Speaker 1: 49:17

I'm sitting here with a small amount of guilt Like well, I better be doing something. I know.

Speaker 3: 49:22

I think you'll find your thing yeah yeah. And you meet your edge every day in what's a ways so being married to me is one of them.

Speaker 1: 49:30

Yeah, that's another podcast for another time, josh. One thing it's a little bit off from what we've been discussing here, but when we're here on our podcast about lead with courage and we're talking to leaders and people in business. One thing that I was I'm gonna just from my own perspective. I was a bit uncomfortable with and from the intention. I was there but I felt almost does this come across inauthentic? And my opinion did shift when we went to Uluru last year year before.

Speaker 1: 50:03

Another very special place A very special place, a very, very special place, a phenomenal experience which is acknowledgement to country in a corporate setting and I was always at the beginning of our workshops and if we were presenting, always saying an acknowledgement to country, and prior to my visit to Uluru, I felt like it might have been perceived as a tick box exercise which was kind of against the whole reason of doing it. Upon returning from Uluru I did feel a different level of connection and like actual genuine drive, that this is something I want to say for my own reasons, but in speaking to a few people in the corporate world who are maybe not indigenous and but still wanting for that diversity, inclusion and acknowledgement, do you have thoughts, opinions or advice on that topic?

Speaker 2: 50:55

What I've found in my journey through my career is there's a huge amount of goodwill in the non-indigenous community for indigenous issues, a huge amount. Now, scholarship's a good example. People want to do things but they don't know how, they don't know the entry point. And I want to talk about Australia, I guess as a nation and I think we really struggle as a nation to have an identity. You know there's a lot. What is it? Is it going to barbecues and watching the cricket or is it going fishing? Is it going? You know we don't have a strong Watching Bluey.

Speaker 2: 51:27

Yeah, exactly yeah probably more so now. You know we don't have a strong sense of national identity. I'm not saying we all have to be, we don't all have to be nationalists and bang on the door and stuff but I actually think part of that is having not been able to reconcile our past, our relationship with indigenous Australians.

Speaker 3: 51:42

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2: 51:43

And so you know I don't want to harp on about truth telling, but when people start to understand those types of issues, our history, and actually it should form part of our identity as a nation, and because of that identity there's certain practices that you know we want to incorporate in what we do. You know it's like international tourists when they come here they want to learn about indigenous culture. They go to Uluru, they go to all these places, they want to learn about things. But we as a nation actually don't want to embrace that yet, and because of that I think we really struggle.

Speaker 2: 52:15

Like it's like the issue you're saying it's like well, how does that fit in? But when we have a stronger sense of our past and our relationship with First Nations people, I think those things might be just become more. They're accepted because a lot of people do them, but there might be a bit of a greater appreciation or understanding as to why we do those and a greater acceptance that indigenous First Nations history is a big part of our Australian history and identity today.

Speaker 1: 52:42

So just keep learning, just keep having conversations with First Nations people, keep being curious about what you can learn and maybe broaden the horizons, whether that's watching shows like Incarceration Nation or just listening to podcast conversations, is that the practical advice?

Speaker 2: 53:01

Yeah, it's interesting. I think there will be a lot of material published through Truth Telling About Our History and there's some really amazing books actually out there.

Speaker 3: 53:11

I think something you said really resonated with me too in regards to I forgot what it is now, but it'll I just keep talking all the time.

Speaker 2: 53:25

Yeah, all good.

Speaker 3: 53:28

Sorry, I might edit this bit out.

Speaker 2: 53:30

but yeah, that's why I've ever talked to you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Speaker 3: 53:34

Let me cop that out.

Speaker 2: 53:38

Well, I think, let me say this education is a missing piece in our journey and I sit down and I sit on the council at Griffith University. I've sit on different legal boards and committees and I often sit down and I'll give a lecture on my work and I feel like I am often in the room with some of the most successful, some of the most educated, some of the biggest leaders in law or in the university sector and they haven't heard the stuff.

Speaker 2: 54:11

And so if people at that you know they're 60 years old, if people at that level haven't been educated, then we have a real problem. And so I do think education, and whether it's through self-education and trying to get the right resources or just education more generally about our history, is probably the really critical part.

Speaker 1: 54:31

Yeah, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 3: 54:34

I think that's something you said really resonated with me too, and I remember what it is now, so that's a win for me. That entry point you talked about it is. I think a lot of people, myself included, find it tricky just to work out kind of where that point is into the conversation. I think having this today has helped kind of you know, sort of provide like a little bit more exposure, and I have watched Incarceration Nation and certainly been tuning into a lot of what you've done and the great work that people like you have done. It's an opportunity for us and, you know, hopefully in 10 years' time, when we are on episode 3000, and we get you to come back and talk about that, there'll be a lot of movement in that space.

Speaker 2: 55:21

Yeah, I said to Trent Dalton recently and everyone loves Trent Nostra I was like Trent, you need to come out with me. I call the people I work with, the Forgotten Australians, because they're really largely responsible for the benefits that we had in it to our economy and through our pastoral industries and the help in the homes. But you need to come out with me and we need to do a story on these Forgotten Australians and I want to take you to these communities and talk, sit down and you start to hear these, because people like Trent and others can cut through, they can actually share those stories to a wider audience and I feel like that's the obligation I have Learn the stories, learn the history, meet those people and have those relationships, but share those stories. So, whether it's in a room like this, I think last weekend I was sitting down at some friends and talking to their friends about my work and educating them too, having a Sunday morning breakfast. So I've got that responsibility. It's something I share.

Speaker 2: 56:18

Actually, before this whole social media stuff, I sort of thought about our history and our journey in this context. The first Indigenous people I mean first who were impacted by those laws had no ability to influence their own circumstances. They couldn't do anything at all. And then you get to this stage where people could strike. They'd go to the local protectors office or the strikes in Wave Hill where it's like we are not working. That's all we can do. The next generation I call them the marchers. They are marching against Biocupetus and they come out of the missions and they're like when I've got to stand for this, my generation of Indigenous leaders, I think, were the influencers.

Speaker 2: 56:59

We are talking to the politicians. We are talking to the judges, the key decision makers in community, trying to influence decisions. The next generation, like my kids, they, will be decision makers. They don't have to influence anybody. So that's where I feel like my generation of Indigenous leaders fits in, that we've got influence people who make decisions about us.

Speaker 1: 57:20

I feel so inspired hearing that that transition and each generation, and it feels to me with so much inspiration and hope and so much joy to hear that that's where we're going and that's a wonderful, wonderful thing for our country, for all people.

Speaker 2: 57:38

Yeah well, how can you understand your future if you don't know your past? I'm a very good segue. I'm a very good sort of intermediary between I understand those things and I have really strong views, or I have a good insight into where we could go as a nation in the future and I want to make an impact. It's really what comes down to it.

Speaker 1: 57:58

If there was one piece of advice that we could wrap this conversation up with, full leaders or business owners of what action in their businesses, what advice you would give around inclusive cultures or embracing diversity, what would that be?

Speaker 2: 58:13

Educate yourself and your team. There are some good programs that are starting to roll out there in the country around Indigenous capability and Indigenous history and knowledge, and it doesn't take much. I don't do it a lot, I'm not interested in it, but sometimes I'll sit down and talk to people and they'll learn a lot more than now and they've learned a lifetime. Very much like this conversation, particularly when it is just focused on history, and so there's a lot of things you can do to start to understand, guess the impact. And when you start to understand that history, like I do, I know why there's high rates of suicide in the Kimberleys or why kids don't go to school in the Northern Territory or why there's real disadvantage in Karnanar. In those places I know, I've been there, I've worked there, I know the history, I know the laws, I know that really things won't change unless governments change the way they operate. So you're really informing yourself about the Indigenous issues, the history, the disadvantage and how you can make an impact. One of the great conversations I had this week was with somebody who's in a position to make a real impact, really, really big at what they do and sits in the shadows. But unless people like him and I come together. You need that bridge and I think there is.

Speaker 2: 59:34

The missing piece in Indigenous space is actually the economic benefit, but it's really that corporate leadership where we need leadership because we need influences, and I saw it done particularly well in the gender space, I think last year, probably 10 years ago, they had the sort of champions in the women's area and people like the chairman or the CEO out of RISE and were one of the champions and there were some really great leaders in the community. We actually need that in the Indigenous space. We need people to give a damn, and I know at the political level in the state they say, oh, I'm the champion for Yarraba, our community, I'm the champion for Pama. Well, we need people in the corporate space to be champions too, because they're sitting in boardrooms and they're having conversations with other people who can make a really big difference. So, educate yourself, get engaged and start to make an impact in that space, because a lot of the disadvantages in the Indigenous community is an economic one and the corporate space can have a real influence on that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:37

Great advice, thank you. Thank you, josh. It has been such a delight having you on here. I feel really honoured to be sharing this space with you, and the more I discover what you're actually doing, it blows my mind. I can hear Kara in my head saying to me see, I told you he's just doing incredible things out there and don't stop, and good luck in Everest. Thank you for everything that you're doing, because I truly believe that you are making this world a better place for all people. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:01:11

Yeah, that's what leadership's about. I think you just want to make it better for the next generation coming through and that's a responsibility I've had for a long time and I want to keep doing it to the best I can.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

Amazing.

Speaker 3: 1:01:22

Love that, Josh. Thanks so much.

Speaker 2: 1:01:25

I can go home and see my wife, should we?

Speaker 1: 1:01:27

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:01:28

That's a brownie point, thank you.