Tips from the Top with Kelly Donagher of 13 Interiors.

Please enjoy this interview with Kelly Donagher, founder of 13 Interiors, to explore her remarkable journey from a mining career to becoming a celebrated interior designer. Kelly's transition, fueled by her creative instincts and desire for change, spills the tea on the business of design. She talks to  her approach to running 13 Interiors, influenced by her diverse career experiences, and shares invaluable ‘gold nugget’ advice on getting published, highlighting the importance of storytelling and building media relationships. The conversation also covers Kelly's strategic decision to scale her team, maintaining her personal brand while nurturing new talent.

 Kelly speaks candidly about the advantages of WA based work, her innovative approaches to generating alternate revenue streams like course creation and her rug collection, and the unique perks and challenges within the interior design industry. The episode wraps up with Kelly's exciting expansion into Melbourne, reflecting on the alignment between her brand's aesthetic and the city's design scene. 

For more on Kelly's design philosophy and offerings, check her out here
https://www.instagram.com/13interiors

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Transcript

0:12

Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleandra Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. I have a real treat for you today. I recently sat down with the founder of 13 Interiors, Kelly Donagher, and we had a really big chat about sort of the business of design, the business of business, the stuff that's not the things that we learn in design school. And incidentally, Kelly and I studied at the same online Interior Design Institute. I have long seen her, she's still affiliated. I see her run some workshops and help other people Up as they enter the design community, just as I do. I'm quite active in that Facebook group. So many of you are listening and you're an IDI student. Say hello. I'm always happy to have those conversations. But today's conversation was between her and I and we spoke a lot about her trajectory since graduating and the parts about business that she brought into it from her own varied past careers in industries like mining and other industries. I drilled her on getting your work published in print and digital media and just what sort of things you should be doing if that is a goal of yours. So if that's something you'd like to see some of your work in magazines, stick around and listen.'cause she had some really great tips. We also spoke about making the decision to hire staff or scale your business or grow your team on what that looks like. Her amazing brand is going cross continental. So she's located in Western Australia, but she's now also spending time here on the East coast in Melbourne. So very exciting stuff. I don't want to tell you all about it. I want you to listen. I want you to enjoy it. It is an amazing conversation. And I hope that you will get as much out of it as I did. So without further ado, this is my chat with Kelly from 13 interiors.

rhiannon: 2:25

Let's kick off. What initially drew you to interior design? Like how did that come about as a career? Oh, gosh. I've had quite a few different careers, but I always had that creative brain. I love styling. I really loved all of the elements of bringing our different homes together, where we might have been living at the time. I'm originally from Sydney and everyone always said to me, Oh, gosh, you should be a designer or a stylist, friends and family and things like that coming over to your home. But it wasn't so I had a bit of a moment where I was like, what do I actually want to do? With my life, because, so I was mid thirties and I was working in mining and had some really amazing opportunities when we originally moved to Perth. And yeah, I got to a point where I was at a bit of a stalemate and I thought, what is it that I actually really want to do? And I. Sort of started out going, I'm just going to study a course 1st and, just to give something for my brain to do other than just, working and sleeping and eating and I really enjoyed the study and I had. Probably absolutely no plans to have a business of this degree. I never envisaged it would be like this in the start. And yeah, it just went from there. I just got little jobs on the side and then it just grew and I just really loved it. And I think if there's something you can do as a job and absolutely love it then it's a win. Every time and it's funny that you say that because that's something that can be indicator that you might succeed in this industry is when friends and family originally enjoy the harmony that you're creating in your own home. Always say that you pull things together well or you dress a specific way like your wardrobe comes together I think there's a lot of indicators in how you. Curate color and pattern and what you actually do way before, any of the rules best work is so insane to me that you're like, Oh, this is really, because it is a bit cowboy, isn't it? Because you don't know the rules. So you're just doing what you think might come together. And I think sometimes I make even. Braver and bolder design choices before we know we shouldn't be like, Oh no, you can't do those two things. And I like to reflect on that before, like before study me and after study me sometimes. And really Calend would you still do it that way? If you didn't know that, before you even knew you had to have a lighting plan, would you be okay to have a pendant over the dining table and task lighting over the thing, Ask those questions.'cause sometimes we can fall into the rules a little bit, which is not Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And forget about the creative side of it and your natural abilities with it and yeah. How intuitive it is to you. Like you, there's a reason that you. really enjoy the study or you do really immediately. And it's usually just because, as you say, you've got so much passion for it that you just find yourself in the right place. And when you did decide to make it a business, like obviously you couldn't foresee how that would go to this extreme level. You probably at the start Oh, maybe we'll try it. See, give it a six months. See if I can start something up. How hard did you actually find the business side? Because I know when we do design course, it teaches design, but what prepared you for the business side and how did you get that going? As it's not like just getting a book and going step by step and along. It's it, there's like lots of learning curves along the way. I am very fortunate that I did come from a background of around 20 years business experience along very different fields of work. I worked in local government, I worked in the fitness industry, I worked in mining. I had some amazing managers and bosses and teams that I worked in and employees that I've employed over those periods of time. But I also had some really bad bosses as well. So you definitely, and I feel like I'm a little bit of a sponge and a fairly quick learner. I definitely took on board a lot of elements of those work environments and. Some sort of, in some ways, subconsciously did bring that into my business as well. And not even realizing that I was doing things that I learned from say fitness first or, around accounts or whatever it might've been. So I, yes, it is extremely hard. And people always ask me, like, how do you start a business and how did you start? And they think that it's all just so easy on the surface, but I learned so much over the last. 20 years. I'm also almost 43. I've had life experience. I've lived in multiple different places. Yeah, I've just, I've done a lot and I 20 year old me would never been able to do this. I've just, there's so much life experience in there to use as a tool with our clients as far as, communication and your. Work ethic, your appearance and, there's so many things that go into forming a professional brand. That's not just about your actual design skill. So yes, it is hard, but I'm, I feel like I was very fortunate to have the experience that I had across many different jobs. So I have absolutely no regrets about any of the paths I took and the experience that I gained. I love that. I think it's so undervalued our transferable skills. I have so many girls come into the course that are like I don't really know anything about business. You're a copywriter for how long, how to communicate, marketing, let's focus on what you do know. And sometimes you have to really write a list or draw that out to be like, yeah, I might've got here on a roundabout way. But as you say, I think they say the average career change age for a designer is like around 37 or so. So I sometimes mentor designers who one of their biggest struggle is that they are so they find it hard to be taken seriously to get clients to articulate how they can transform a home or how they can do what they do. So it's almost not as. much of a benefit to be here really early as well. Like I see both sides and think, yeah, that life experience counts and it matters to your clients as well. Like they will tend to much prefer that you're able to take on their brief and realistically counter. Offer if it's like outrageous or be really clear about the budget, that'd be tough. Be a bit firm with them sometimes and have that experience where you won't just fulfill but you will design and you will push back a little bit. And I think that builds a lot of trust with the clients.'cause they're like, okay, I am working with someone who's been around the block knows, noses things and you're dealing with a lot. A lot of money you're dealing with clients, biggest asset in their life. And, we do specialize more in the forever home. So we are tend to be dealing with long term decisions more and a lot of money comes into that. It's not just, a couple of thousand dollars here and there, we've got people spending hundreds of thousands, so they need to be able to trust that process with you. And. That is extremely important. And I feel like that does come with experience, definitely. And experience, now that the business has done what it has done over the time that it's been here, I feel as though I often am scrolling or moving through and I am always able to recognize the aesthetic. I always know when it's your work, which is speaks volumes and is the goal, isn't it? What an industry Yes, yes. It's really good. But do you find it hard to not be swayed by trans or stick to that aesthetic? If somebody contacts you and is I wanna play with bright colors, and, or I'm thinking, we've just taken over this farmhouse and I wanna do like modern country, but with a twist of this, do you what is your process managing with clients then? Do you just wanna keep people in your aesthetic and in line with that, or how do you approach it? That's a bit of a, it's an interesting one because I feel like majority of our clients over the years have come from socials. So they would gravitate to what they see on socials and on the website and That's what they want. So I feel like that is my niche. That's where I specialize and I get people because of that. And as a business element, that is a great thing to have because that's where you differ from the next designer or, whatever it might be. And yes, elements of that is definitely what I personally love because that's. I guess where the business gravitated from showing things that I generally love. And it was originally my own home that I was sharing. So I feel like majority of that client base comes because of that aesthetic and they see that online and it's just repeated or they see it in a friend's home. They love that. I want that too. We do get an element of referrals for people who might be a friend of a friend and they had a great experience with us. So they loved how we designed, they loved our 3d work. They loved the experience, the install process, if we were doing furniture and there's elements of that process. Which they want for their home, but not necessarily the style that their friend might've got. So we do definitely have an element of people coming in that might want like a Hamptons look, or they might want a coastal look. So we definitely still do that work. I would. I wouldn't turn someone away just because they want a different style or something that's not that we do something that we don't do all the time, because if I feel like they're the right fit from a perspective of they made out our values and ethos around, the forever home journey, they want that experience with the designer, then we're more than happy to create. Their dream home. Yeah I feel like there's sort of two processes to it. As long as the client meets our values and the way that we want to move forward with our business and what we provide and there's no red flag flying off with the particular client that it is, then we want to be on that journey with them regardless of their style. So I know that there's a lot of it. People who are very particular and maybe designers that only want to do it and aesthetic that they have. Like studio McGee is a great example of that. She has a wonderful style and they only design that, but I can imagine that, they have. Hundreds and thousands of people knocking on their door for design services. So it's like a different world when you're that big. But I just feel that if we have the right type of client and they believe in what we do and they value what we do, and it's for long term decisions, then regardless of their style, we would absolutely love to work with them. It's a little bit like what came first, the chicken or the egg with the aesthetic and you show what you love. And then you're always in control with how you show up from a marketing perspective. So should it be bright and bold, and maybe you're not there to articulate what you exactly said and why you worked together and why it was important. And it may not be the thing you lead with on your Instagram. You might not just poke it in the middle and it doesn't, not every. Single project needs to be showcased in the same way. We might not share all of our projects for personal reasons with the client. It could be or yeah, it might be just something that's very personal to the client and the way they want it to do. And we love doing it, but not necessarily a particular 13 interiors branded look. Yeah. And at the end of the day, it's people's homes. It's their floor plan. There's a real intimacy to what we do with them. And it's not always a given that what you finish, even after a couple of years together is going to be accessible to print media, digital media. Like we don't always get the green light to just pitch it out there and get a pizza in terms of. Thinking about that sort of thing, being in print media or digital media. Do you have any tips for, I speak to lots of designers who have put that on their goals for 2024, they want to get picked up, they want to get featured. What's that experience been like for you and how do you advise others go about it? I am so grateful for anything that we've had in the media and we've been very fortunate over the probably three to four years of having a lot more. In the media initially a few of our magazine Home features came from the connection with the photographer. So my advice would be, if you think that you've got a great project that suits a particular magazine brand, and you feel like there's a really good story behind it, then use a photographer that has connections with that particular Brand or newspaper outlet or magazine to establish a relationship and they might have contacts that they can connect and say, Hey, I've just photographed this house. I think it's a great fit for, say home, beautiful, whatever. And then home, beautiful, we'll come back and decide how they might want to feature it. But it's definitely about your key. Network and collaborating with different photographers or brands that might have connections. It's very hard to just write an email and reach out to a magazine or media outlet and say, Hey, I've got something amazing that you want to feature. So initially, I think it's a good way to. Yeah, connect with photographers that have those connections because they're the ones that are getting their stuff in magazines. Like ultimately they need the photo to be able to show how your, project looks. So that can be a great way to start as you get more experienced and you might have more work. To share, or you might want to move more into say TV or whatever it might be, then it's great to have a, either a PR team working with you or a talent manager or something like that, that can connect you directly to the brands. And they do the legwork for you basically. So you pay a fee for that. And ultimately the brands like, the magazines can still say, no, it's not right for us, but they have. The direct network line of who the editor is, who might be writing the articles, and then that can all happen behind the scenes for you and you're not having to delve into it. And then, it's basically, yes, they want to feature these. No, they don't. But I would a hundred percent recommend. Really promoting the story behind what you're trying to feature. So a couple of my projects, we had a beautiful home, beautiful feature years ago with a family that we're creating their forever home. And they had turned this investment property into this luxury home. They actually project manager and we did. Project manager and we did the design. So it was a lovely story behind that. The UK family, the couple that I worked with, they were living in the UK. This is all through COVID as well. And they bought a house in Perth and we basically created and transformed their forever home for them to come back to after COVID. And it's the first time they'd seen the home and walked into it completely finished and decorated and. And beautiful as for what they wanted to start their life here or there. Yeah it's about the media want a story as well. It's not just about pretty pictures. It's, how you. Changing that person's life or that family's life. And what did you create and why? And every project has it like every brief, every project has it pinpointing that story and knowing that you lead with the reason it is in the magazine. Cause we do read the little bits on the side and when you are seeing things, you're like, Oh, how did you create that? Particular vignette and why what's the who's sitting there? What do they want to use it for? So I love all the behind the scenes stuff when it is shared. I don't just want to flip through my magazines and absorb interiors. I do like to see what's different about this and why it's in there which is good. And I love that you mentioned as well something that's Often a missed step, which is you have the ability to interview your photographer. You don't just get it don't just go out to the white pages or however you air tasker, however you find someone now or get someone recommended who they did their newborn photography, like interiorist photography and photographers for magazine and thing. It's important that you do your legwork and actually ask them questions and learn more about. Even some aren't even prepared to sign over any copywriting. You need to know where you stand before you're in there. You need to do your research on licensing and things like that. That's a really big tip too. We use all different photographers for different jobs based on whether we're doing collaborations with brands and things like that, because photos might be shared with the brand and certain photographers may have licensing rules with those photos around what can be shared outside of what you've already paid for. So it's important to understand that in the interiors world as well, because seven, six, seven years ago, I had no idea about how photographers operate, but I love the relationships that we were able to form on each of those projects and how you work together and they will even assist with styling, you could be shooting an angle and they're like, yeah, let's just move this or whatever. Photography for, Media and print and editorial kind of stuff is completely different to photographing a home just in general, or even just styling a home. You will move things around. It will not look like how the client will see their home when they walk in. So it's important to understand that element and what. The media outlet wants to see as well, but yeah, form relationships and understand the needs of the photographers you're using their rules behind what they use and the relationships that they have that can help you. Yeah. There's a lot to learn, isn't there? And I think even just knowing that there's a difference between real estate photography, like just because you smile a place and you get a, they're like, I'm going to get professional photos. It's like, where are you going to use those though? Because that's there to sell the house and that's its only purpose and the angles and the lighting and the Things that, the way that it's, oh, lights are everywhere. Yeah. And the downlights are not a feature. But anyway, the reason that the way that's been taken, I do see a lot of new designers really excited about the opportunity to get those photos as part of whatever job or project that they're entering. And I do to sometimes pinpoint, is it the best? Has it photographed it in the best? Way of showcasing what you could do or what you're actually trying to achieve. Cause often it's just a bit like, yeah, I've got some professional photos, but you'll be much better going the way you suggested, which is take the time, get to know who things do some research in the start. To be honest, I actually learned photography when I first started. Yeah. One of my, one of the hardest. Things was when there were smaller projects and I knew that I didn't wanna pay a photographer for that job as such. I knew it wasn't, say media worthy or whatever, but I knew I still wanted to feature it on our socials. I actually invested in a really good camera. And learned a lot around photography and angles. I actually come from a very creative family as well. I have a aunt that's a, was a photographer and journalist as well. And I don't know, I just always loved photography. And so I learned a lot of that and how to edit my own photos so I could feature some of that. And to be honest, people sometimes still ask me now in some of those photos, Oh, what photography did you use? And I'm like, Oh, that's just mine. So it was actually really good in the sense of in the early days when say we were collaborating with. Some homewares brands or furniture brands, I could just pass on the photos. I wasn't, I didn't care about being compensated for them. The point of us was being featured on their platform and the way that we were getting exposure through other Instagram socials. And back in those days where, someone would share a post and you'd get a hundred followers. So it was very much about the networking and collaborating on those smaller ones of just being. Featured and tagged and then really investing the money on those larger projects and networking with the right photographer on those to get featured. Yeah, it's funny. It's quite a challenge in the beginning, isn't it? To see value in those investments, be it like upskilling courses, coaches, photographers, anyone that you have to outsource to it, like it is legitimately hard in the first year or two of business to see return on like just reinvesting any profits that are coming in into things that because it's a long. It's a marathon, not a sprint, your business. And it's a long term goals. But in that moment, it's like, Hey, you just made that little bit of money. It is hard. And that's why I actually kept my other full time job for two years into running. I couldn't even be free. I can't remember now running 13 interiors because I was earning a really good wage in that role. And I had a little bit of flexibility, which was good, but it gave me the time to go. Just potter along and, as clients are coming in and then realizing, wow, 30 interiors is a thing. So I was able to, I had that core income coming in that I wasn't reliant on 30 interiors income and anything I was getting was a bonus. So I could invest in, a decent computer courses. Software, like the amount of subscriptions that we have a year now is just insane. It's probably 20, 000 worth of subscriptions. And then cameras and things like that too. Yeah I didn't feel so stressed about that income, but it's just a lot to take in when you first start. Everything is, and it is nice to have that solid safety net though. I see both versions. So there's some people who thrive in the baptism of fire and need the rug taken out from under them in order to like, activate, like me, activate parachute, let's get the successful business working and others are like, There's obviously the smart financial way is to be in parallel and take your time. For my personal journey though, COVID was influential in that. So that was the right number. So a lot of us did do that sort of, it's been, cause I ran it parallel with my work prior. And then when you've got nothing else, you're like, I could just go all in and see what we can do. Like maybe this is the universe just saying, give it a go. You've got nothing else. We're all in lockdown. Yes, true. We spoke about software and subscriptions and things like that. Do you have a favorite sort of design software at all? Or is it a tip for designers? That's something that you use that you absolutely adore. Sketch up every day. To be honest, I don't do a lot anymore. I haven't got time for that anymore. So yeah, we are heavily reliant on 3d and SketchUp. We use it for every single project. We do not do mood boards with our designs anymore. The mood board tour is fantastic for people when they're starting out and someone at home that wants to, bring ideas together. The element for us as a design business is creating those 3d visuals for our clients to effectively visualize their home before they're investing the money. So they're not going out and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on kitchens, bathrooms, furniture, whatever it is until they've seen how Physically comes together. there is no way that we could run our business without it. And it is a crucial tool I highly recommend that people go out and absolutely learn it before they get really invested into it, because I feel like it's something that every design business uses, whether they might go further down the track and use AutoCAD as well, or Revit and things like that. And then they might be rendering too. But SketchUp is your base. Not only is it beneficial for the client, but it's also beneficial for you as a designer to understand how that lounge goes with that coffee table and the space between. And it really teaches you proportion, balance, scale. All of those elements so that you can be comfortable what you are presenting to the client is correct. And I agree. I think that there's so many courses out there as well. And there's so many ways of learning it that are interactive, that are easy, like that are fun. Like courses being available. I just YouTube things and I'm like, I'm going to win this and learn it. And just like the design course, if it's truly something that you love, it's actually really fun. It's like someone lets you in on remember, it's like playing Sims or something like you're playing, you're making all your best things. So it shouldn't be like, Oh, it looks too complicated, too scary. In order to take them through in a way where they're on board, they're not going to get that from 2d mood boards. You can actually show them where you put the tracking and how it changes the room and stuff, like you're going to get a lot more buy in and. Everybody's on the same page before we green light it and spend that money. Yes, we find there's less changes. Yeah, we probably have the least amount of changes with the design journey because we do this in 2 stages as well. So we present like a sketch up role model to the client first with, spatial planning and show them say how the kitchen elements are going to come together. And then we move further into adding more materials and finishes and rendering and things like that. So it's so it's not a surprise at the end for the client and they're like, Oh, I didn't think it was going to look like that. Can I move the sink in the kitchen? Yeah. No worries. Cause we understand how one change impacts another. But they don't. So it's about that journey with them, but we could not do it without SketchUp you mentioned your team earlier and for me, I think. Deciding to be the kind of design firm that takes on staff is a big step. And there's a lot of us that are like, I will, I don't, I've come from that background of managing and leadership, and I don't want to get any bigger than this. Or I do, I have goals to be this big. I want a team of X. Can you talk me through what that decision process was like for you and what you love about it now, or what you were worried about a bit about taking on team? It's a really hard thing as a creative. When you have developed your own brand. You are the brand and then you need to make a decision moving forward about how big that brand becomes. But ultimately you can't do it by yourself. So it's about understanding what your strengths are and definitely what your weaknesses are. And. Understanding how that fits into your, to your business and deciding what you want your business model to be moving forward. So for me, during those early stages of COVID, we, like every other designer, we started to get really busy. And. I was looking at my home in Perth and it was becoming the storage ground for all of the furniture that we were purchasing for clients. I was like, Oh, my God, I'm getting to a point here where I'd like, I just left my full time job as well. And I was like so we're turning over a bit of money now. Actually, I'm putting myself at risk by being a sole trader here. I need to look at becoming a company structure. You have the chats with your account and about how you do that. And then I was mentoring some students as well. And I had one student in particular who decided to do some work experience with me and we were working from my home and I was like, this is not. How I want my business to represent going forward. If I'm going to have work experience, students or staff, and to the point where I'm getting bigger, I need a separate space. I was tired from working at from home. I got to that point where I was like, I want that separation again, which I didn't think I was going to be like, I thought I was going to love getting up and chucking the tracky pants on and the Ugg boots and going straight to the office and working and then walking out the kitchen later on and being like, great. But my husband was, is FIFO as well. So flies in and flies out. So sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. And I guess I craved a little bit more, not normality, but structure. And we then decided to invest in a building and buy a commercial investment my husband and I. And decided to put the studio in that space and it all just really fell into place. And then slowly just started. Bringing stuff on and finding the right fit. But the key was really understanding what I wanted that business model to be moving forward. Because I think designers get stuck in those initial stages of going, do I want administration? And do I want to palm off? All of that low level stuff that you do every day and just design, or do I want to have a design team still and manage? That overarching part of the business and still do admin as well, because you are the communicator to your clients and those types of things. So I actually made a decision to bring designers on board and nurture them and grow them into our brand, but educate them on the environment that. This is still, this is 30 interiors. This is our vision. This is our values. And yes, I am the face of the brand, but you are part of the team and the designers as part of this group. So you need to be recruiting people that are okay with that. And that takes. Skill to recognize people that are okay to be part of someone else's brand designers. When they're starting out, they generally, they go to TAFE or uni, or they might do an online course and they start their little Instagram page and they do work on the side. And, I didn't want designers to come on board that just wanted to. Elevate their own brand and lead. I wanted people to be part of the journey with me and my brand and grow and experience. So many, different opportunities to grow them and I'm fortunate enough to have two amazing designers and now an administrator who looks after the studio as well. And they are all amazing. They're such a fabulous team. We, we have annual business plans. They have. And you'll performance reviews and goal setting plans. We've just done human design training as well. So that is where I see my strengths as a leader and a communicator and communicating with our clients and managing schedules and timeframes and the overall brief of the design. And then I work with the designers. On the individual designs that they're working on each designer works with me solely on their own projects. And they see that to completion, which is way more like rewarding for them. As I say, so much more fulfilling than just being like, the guy that plugs in the joinery Next person. I didn't want it to be like a conveyor belt kind of process to design, because I want them to feel part of the journey because why else would they want to work for someone, yes, business is hard, but I want them to love that project and feel as rewarded at the end that as I do. So it's, it is a, it's a huge journey when you bring on people, but it's about understanding what you want your role in the business to be. And. How you want your employees to then perform and what's their role. Everyone needs a role and they need to understand what their role is. It's such a clever way to approach it because it's a good reminder to everyone who's going through design school right now is that the overarching outcome isn't always running your own design business. Just like not everyone's suited to management or leadership. Like some people who are great at like selling and being in that zone and making lots of commission or whatever, then you elevate them and try to promote them into a leadership role when they're not. Organically made for leadership, it's a disaster and they're not good at anything. You like put them back in the place. Everyone find your place. And for some people, and I do speak to them and I speak to them on the phone and we talk about the framework and I'm like, Hey, sure. I want to just go get a job. And it just cause what you're explaining to me is working in a firm and it's not. No one's looking down on that. It's just two different avenues. Like it's not a bad choice. It's just, it's actually really hard to run your own business and it's not doing a lot of designing. It's doing a lot of business stuff. And so don't go there if you're not there. I think a lot of people feel like they've failed or something if they have to go and work for someone else. I don't think I would say that my team doesn't feel like that. They very much know how hard it is to run a business and they love the environment we've created and all the opportunities they get. Maybe they might feel different in, five, 10 years time or whatever. It sounds like you've created clarity in that, in the hiring process. So it sounds like you're quite clear with what you're looking for and finding a good fit is about saying does this. Meet your needs. Are you the person who wants to come in and do this kind of role? And then they know what they're getting into and it obviously is a decision, but it is a good reminder to everyone that the only decision is not to run your own just because you see a lot of people doing it. There's nothing wrong with just going and being like, I'm really talented. I'm going to punch in, punch out, work hard. Do what I need to do. 9 to 5, go home, cook dinner and just go back to work the next day. Even then, your staff are thinking about it 24 7, whether they've got to do their best statement or like whether they're in charge of some of the stuff that seems more complicated, but the jobs that they're working on there. So invested, they're taking that home anyway, they're still always going to feel like they're such a big part of it. I just, it is a nice reminder to anyone listening that there's no failure in either of those avenues. I just hear it so often that people are like, oh. Next step, run your business. I'm like, maybe not stop and think people say to me Oh, you didn't work for anybody else before you started your business. And I'm like, no, I didn't, but I had 20 years business experience. So I was quite comfortable doing it side by side and just starting out when I was working full time. And then. Growing to a point where I was like, yeah, I can actually leave my other job now and I'm comfortable to do this, but it doesn't come easy, but there's hundreds of options out there as to what direction you could take. Yeah, I'm exactly the same with the experience and the types of things that led me where I went and I spoke to a friend the other night and I said, Oh, I only just put two and two together when I started in design, trade discounts, trade accounts, purchase orders, all of that stuff was second nature to me because I ran a Huge corporate academic accounts at the travel company that I worked with, and they would pay with purchase orders and invoicing. And so that side of my business, I was like, Oh, I know how I want to run the invoices and I know how I want to store them and I know how I want to do this, that, and the other. And it only literally occurred to me the other day. That's not normal. Most people would actually be like, Oh, I don't know about net and gross. And I don't really know how to approach it. And I've collected the wrong amounts and people panic. And I'm like, Oh, I never felt like that. And that's just something, a transferable skill you sometimes take for granted. And you think definitely. Yeah. It's crazy the trajectory that things take you on. And you mentioned earlier having an alternate revenue stream and branching into different things within your business, you started like the course creation side of things. It's not new, but how is that going? And would you recommend that for designers out there thinking about it? It's definitely hard. It's finding what is. Missing with that particular demographic or type of person that you are targeting. So I would often get a lot of people come to us and say, I can't afford a designer, but I really wanna style and furnish my home. And then, you hear about all these horror stories of people buying the wrong lounge and it was the wrong size, that the color didn't work or they didn't measure the left and right all the time. Purchase the, all those types of things. So basically the transform your home course is around helping people understand how to buy the right furniture for their home and how to style it. The fundamental key is helping people plan their rooms. So a lot of people will purchase. Without a plan, basically, so the whole census and structure of the course is about having a plan. You know what to buy before you go to the shops and you could be planning for 10 rooms. You could be planning for 1, there's videos created around me styling to show people how to style as well, because that's a fundamental element of finishing your home and people not necessarily understanding the key principles with that. And some of those real simple things that we just do all the time. And then we offer discounts to some of our trade accounts as well, that we can order the furniture for you and then obviously get you some really good discounts to buy furniture. We've got extra discounts in the course for our rug collection. So that's one of the other things we launched last year was our flat weave rug collection. Another one we hear all the time from clients is that they really struggle with. Finding the right rug for families. So we have always found the flat wave style has been great, easy to look after. And I trialed one in my home for 12 months and I have a staffy. So the dog is always inside all over the rug. And yeah, so we brought out our own range with Stan's rug. From this year, the course is open full time, so people can join it and do it at their own pace and they get access to the module straight away. I feel like the world is changing and evolves with the online space, I think, my advice to people is really look at what is what's missing that your audience might really be looking for a solution for create the solution for the problem that they have and trial and error, some things are great. Some things might not be great. But it definitely. A great added revenue stream, I went, I was fortunate enough to go to the Australian open this week and sit in a super box with Constantina, which was lovely. And then I had people buying the rugs that day. So I was making money while I was watching the tennis. Yeah, that is my favorite part of course creation, but it comes with so much behind the scenes marketing energy. Obviously upfront work that goes into it and I love that fantastic at that. I need to get better at that. So this year is the year to really work on. be a bit more of the marketing side of the online stuff. And I love that feedback too, because I've done that from the get go. I've always had the framework. We do 12 months. We don't have particular cohorts. So if you came in halfway through, Some of them are a bit more into it so they can answer your questions and remember, oh yeah, six months ago, I had no clients who don't worry. Hold on. I'm going to get there. It works really well. Whereas I do see a lot of courses that are like, we do a 12 week program. Topic one is on week one. And some people find that they fall off week three and they can't get back up. So I do like that. Yeah. It's quite nice. And also just some random things that I've heard out there that I would share with any designers thinking about doing courses would be, don't be afraid to teach everything you know, you are not going to talk someone who's going to build a forever home out of building a forever home with you and talk them into do it yourself. The people who want to learn to do what you teach in your course. are not going to be your design firm clients and vice versa. And I see too many people being like, why would I teach them how to do what I do? Then they won't. I want to be clear that they are two different things. I teach people how to run interior design business. I'm not threatened in any way that means that they're taking it. Do you know how many houses there are in this world? Each one of them needs help from a designer. There's enough for everyone. And someone who's going to take the course is not the same person who's going to just throw money at you to go and make the selections and do the thing. And I think, especially in the early days, people are a bit timid or nervous that one will threaten the other. And it really isn't like that. It's just more. Yeah. It's about speaking to the right people. So I know I have. And, one of the DIY first home buyers looking for inspiration from my page, those people are never going to buy my design service because I would not sit in the area of what they want to spend, they are the DIY is, and you have those direct audience that The people that just follow along because they are planning to buy their forever home and they know they might contact you in the future. So it's about speaking to the right person when you are marketing, which is hard. It is really hard dividing that and going, am I attracting the wrong message? If I keep talking about this, I'm talking to you, but tomorrow I'm going to speak to my longterm client. Who's forever home and that's you. Yeah, it is hard when you have that. Large audience, making sure that you speak into the right people. Yeah. And how do you feel about, you talk about people falling on the page and obviously maybe doing volume builds, new builds, being heavily influenced by your aesthetic is sharing all this beautiful work that you and your team have created. And then they're like, excellent. So I'll just go down to freedom. I'll buy a black TV unit. And I, I imagine a lot of people are influenced in a way where they're trying to articulate the 13 interiors look inside of them. How does that feel? It's actually quite rewarding, like it's a really nice thing when people reach out to you and they send you photos of their lounge room or something they've created and you're like, yeah, wow, yeah, it's very black, white and gray or, very moody. And so it is nice. And also, people do the course and they'll send you photos of what they might have created with their own skill now because they understand it more. So yeah, it is really rewarding to see that people are so invested. in the brand and I often forget that. So that's actually, that was a really good question. It's actually a good reminder sometimes. It is nice, isn't it? Just to be like, Oh, you've got this overarching influence for want of a better word, but without, ever having reached out to that person or having a consultation and then you're still such a big part of their living their dream and their home looking like something you would have created. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Nice that they believe in it as well. Yeah. In terms of the industry itself, I've started this season with my perks and Eric's, do you have any design edit version of what is the biggest perk of being in the industry and what makes you roll your eyes a little bit? Oh we do get some good discounts. I won't lie. That's pretty a perk if you're, you are, going to renovate or build, those relationships that we form with suppliers is amazing. Like I feel so blessed and lucky to have some really good brands that we work with in those. Relationships that we've created and knowing that you're using the best materials and understanding how those materials were made. And yeah, so I'd say that's a hundred percent a perk. I think definitely maybe an ERC as an overall is maybe people don't necessarily understand what interior designers do. It can be a little bit of an. An education topic as far as, there's architectural designers, there's interior designers, there's stylists and decorators and yeah, probably yeah, maybe the devaluing of that sometimes and people just going, Oh, my God, that's such an expensive service, but then maybe not really realizing what We're bringing to the table just because maybe someone else has said, Oh my God, the interior designers just charge an arm and a leg and you'll get nothing out of it. I've literally had builders say that to clients before so the assumptions that go on around what's happening, they say that at age of, at age of the iceberg and what at the top versus what actually happens, as well as that, you do get so many opinions of people. And I always wonder, If you've seen the film, the Gwyneth Paltrow film sliding doors but would you know any different if you didn't have the designer is the reason it went so well, and it was so simple and you felt like you overpaid was probably all the work that designer did for you. Yeah. So like in a sliding doors moment if you had built the same way, but you didn't have them on the team of contractors and things that were helping out. I wonder if you'd value that. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent totally different. Yeah. I think that could definitely be I know there's probably others, but it can be hard to think of them in the moment though. You feel free to message me your list. I've come up with a whole list. Remember this drives me nuts too. Yeah. Now I assume I think from way back when I started, I used to see there's quite great, network of WA designers, it's really good. Like when I first started the most, like, when I look at where my followers are from, the industry seems to be quite big over there. And I used to have a big following from WA, like obviously into interiors. There are a lot of things over there. There's a lot of times you hear the West complain. They don't get stuff or they don't have stuff, but I feel like in the interior design industry, they do pretty well. They get a bit and there's a little bit forgotten. I think sometimes, but yes. So events and function and yeah look at beautiful Melbourne, Constantino showroom here. We don't have that in Perth. Now you're conquering both East and West cause you, and congratulations opening a Melbourne studio, which is exciting to have you here. How is that feeling? Are you excited to were you finding you were getting a lot of work on these? Yeah. We've always originally had work on. The East coast, even from the early days of just working with people remotely or online, and even back as early as sort of mood board days and things like that always had a percentage of clients in Sydney and Melbourne. And I definitely like Melbourne clients have said to me because of my aesthetic is very modern and contemporary. They feel it's very Melbourne and a lot of people actually thought I was Melbourne. And. To be honest, my actual social media following has always been a couple of percent higher for Melbourne than Perth wasn't originally from Perth. I'm originally from Sydney, but I did start my business when we were in Perth. Yeah I just always had a really nice base here, but, still a very much of a core base in Perth too. And then since obviously having the studio and expanding that way. I felt like I always made it easy for clients to work with me remotely as well. I never made the process complicated as far as working with clients who are on the East coast. I was always willing to fly. Back in the early days, I'll pay for my own flights. I wanted the work I wanted to grow. I wanted to expand into those areas. And then as time went on, it just, there was more and more. And then I had the very fortunate opportunity to work with Sophie Keisha and she came from Instagram as well. Oh, so it was, I think that was a prank if she would be like, this is a scam. Goodbye. I know it was really bizarre. Like I had followed her for a while and she had followed me back for quite a while too. And I'd always, I found her through her Keisha brand because I loved leopard print and I bought her first ever GGs that were launched in the pajamas and yeah. And she reached out to me. It could have even been about 18 months prior to actually hiring me and just said, Oh, like I might be buying a new house. It's not sure what I want to do. I'd love to chat with you around your services if we go ahead. And I was like, wow, like I follow her and I think she's amazing. And then yeah, randomly on us. Sunday afternoon, I got a message on a DM on Instagram on the lounge and it said, Hey, I'm literally going to auction for a house tomorrow. If I win, I want to hire you on a chat to you. Could we book in a zoom next week? And I was like. And I looked at my husband, I'm like, do you think this is legit? And he's answer it. And yeah. Good advice. Cause it's delete it like a hot potato and then, yeah, no, I definitely answered. I contacted and said, oh, wow, congratulations. Let me know how you go tomorrow. So yeah, the next day I messaged her and said, I hope the option went well, feel free to reach out if you've got any questions. And she literally just responded and said, Oh, I got the house at auction. I'm so excited. Let's do next week. My PA will be in touch. She'll be there. And it just went from there and she was the most easiest client to work with. She was very understanding of the skill that we brought to designing her home. And she loved everything that we previously done from an aesthetic point of view. We were very fortunate to work with some lovely brands as well for her home. And yeah, we did all of that through COVID. I completely designed her home interior without even seeing the home because I couldn't come here basically. So it wasn't my first trip to actually see the home and her physically in person was the March of when it was like nearly finished. It was like three quarters done and yeah, so feel very lucky. She was. Completely grateful for everything that we did because it also rolled over to the period when she went on Survivor. So she wasn't available for a couple of months while she was on Survivor. So we, her PA and building team and I were just, yeah, back and forth about different things the whole time because she wasn't here and her management team were looking after all the finances and, yeah, managing it while she was on Survivor. Yeah, getting slammed on survival. That's crazy. Yeah. You mentioned before and I can so totally see this. We're both in a Melbourne uniform today in black. And, Melbourne seems like such a great fit for 13 Interiors because of what you said, the contemporary, the darkness. Like we do love a little bit of black here in Melbourne and we like a bit of drama. We like our theatre. We like, I feel like it's a really good fit for you and the business. So welcome. I'm looking forward to seeing more things on this side as well. Not that it matters to me. To get the studio going and finding the right fit. I've seen a couple of buildings. I haven't yeah, I haven't entirely found one that I completely love yet. Thanks so much for joining me. I will put a whole bunch of stuff in the show notes from today around how to connect with your course, how to connect with 13 interiors and connect with you personally. If anyone does want to find you on socials or website, they can head into the show notes, but I will let you get on with making more beautiful roots. so much for inviting me on. I had a blast. I always love talking about the journey and the story and hopefully inspires others. So thanks for sharing and yeah, good luck with the rest of your business as well and everything you create. All right. No worries. Thanks. Bye.

54:08

I love that chat. I hope you did too. If you did enjoy anything that you've heard today, please flick this across to a friend, share it in your stories on Instagram or just legitimately drop into someone's DMs and say, hey, I got this business tip or this inspired me to think about my business in a different way or I've been Binging this podcast, or I always tune in and just let them know about it, especially if they are in a creative service based business. And some of what we talk about collectively can be helpful because that is the name of the game. That is what the podcast exists for. I've had some really beautiful reviews lately, and I appreciate them all so very, very much. And if you are listening in every week, and you literally have to type in designing success to find me and then see who I've spoken to for the week or what topics I've been talking to. Please consider clicking the little plus button at the top. I actually dunno why, but I didn't know that that you didn't do that. Just with every podcast you wanna listen to. So I follow so many podcasts. I have such a full library and I feel like people are quite selective in what they actually press the plus in. But if you feel like you are someone who often listens to designing success or is really into the content or would like to make sure they are the first to see some epic. Interviews that I'm dropping for you soon. Um, yeah, click on the plus and you won't have to go searching for me. It'll just pop up in your library. Okay. That's it for me for this week. Next week's guest is, I'm not going to say too much just yet, but I will say that she is an architect and that she is also a former student of mine. Okay. Talk to you then. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success