'Trust the Process' with Emma of Formery Architecture & Interior Design

I am sitting down with Emma, an architect turned interior designer, about her transformative journey within the Oleander & Finch Framework. Emma shares her leap from architecture to establishing her own interior design business, Formery Architecture and Interior Design, emphasising the crucial role of backend systems and processes for business success. 

The conversation delves into the nuances of starting a design business, highlighting Emma's first major project, her approach to systemizing her business, and the importance of communication and setting boundaries with clients. We also touch on the balance between professional growth and personal well-being. This episode is packed with actionable insights for emerging designers on navigating the complexities of entrepreneurship in the design industry.

Thanks for listening to this episode of "Designing Success: From Study to Studio"! Connect with me on social media for more business tips, and a real look behind the scenes of my own practicing design business.

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Transcript

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Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleandra Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. I have a huge treat for you today, especially if you are an emerging interior designer starting a design business. Firstly, you're in the right place. Well done. Secondly, you will get to listen to me talk to a now friend, former student, Emma. And Emma is the founder of Formery Architecture and Interior Design. She came to me inside of the framework after a lengthy 12 or so year career as an architect, and she wanted to set up an interior design. Business of her own and bring all of her architecture skills, obviously, and really get clear on the back end systems and processes and client flow and just. Make sure that she had checked off everything and knew exactly that she had followed the steps in order to say, okay, here we go. I have a fully functioning interior design business. So, we did that together for a year and today I sat down and during the interview. I felt like I got a whole different perspective because I really saw through the lens of someone who just sort of completed that first 12 months and where the business is at now. And it's not full of things like the first time she landed a multi figure contract. And the first time that this happened, it's not that kind of spin on the transformation, if you will. It's more about her work ethic, her work. what lights her up, how she's approached systemizing her business. And I think you're really, really going to love all of the generous tips and hints that Emma shares with us. So enjoy. Tell me, so I know obviously from having you inside of the framework, a lot of background around your business, but I wanted to share with the wider audience today and learn more about what made you pursue a career in interiors and tell us where you've come from and what that's all been like. Yeah. So it has been quite the long journey, but it initially just started with I really loved houses and my family moved from Sydney to Queensland and we had to start again. So we'd had this one house we grew up in that entire time, and then they would designing a new house. And I just was drawn to the floor plans, and I was just really enjoying. Reworking all of the spaces and things in there. So I was doing all these sketches, even as a kid of Oh what could this room be? Or what would that room be? And it was just a really, I had a very big imagination, and that led me into studying architecture. So I think I might be your only architect who's been in the framework potentially. Yeah. Yeah, and then I did a second major in interiors because you can do a second major in anything construction related when you go ahead and do that course at university. But I suppose the feminine side of me was really just drawn to knowing a little bit more about color theory and furniture and fit outside of things because even architecture can drag you back toward the little cold engineering side if you're not careful. And I really wanted to maintain that. creative side of things. Yeah, finished that and then had been spending the last sort of 15 years or so working in some really incredible architectural firms on a range of different projects. And then. The time came around within the last two years to start the business and that brings us to today. Okay. It's a big step though, right? Big decision to step out of the safety of working for a firm or working with processes structure, like somebody else's rules to follow, which you can resent, but also. Be grateful for sometimes because then it's like the wild west, isn't it? You can step out into your own light and you're like, okay, how did they do this at the start? What, how am I going to get this done? In that first year, there's so much growth and it's so like enormous where you start versus where you finish just in that 12 months. What do you think was the most surprising part of the first year of running a business? That saying you don't know what you don't know comes to mind because I think that when we get to a certain stage, you find yourself waking up one day and you're a senior designer at a really top tier firm and you think I know so much stuff. I'm very confident and capable and competent in kind of my field of expertise. And then. I knew I had all of those transferable skills, but I didn't have the business side. You do get exposure to different elements of business, whether you're like running a team or having to do some scheduling and accounting and things like that, but. There's nothing that will prepare you for owning your own business other than like quite literally being thrown in the deep end and I think it was a bit of an awakening, but it was also something that once I was sitting in it, I'm like, I can't imagine not doing this. This is so perfect for me. I love challenges and. And I love learning and I just looked at those things every day. Yeah. Yeah. And I just looked at a few people around me that had businesses. Yourself included, and that's why I joined the framework, but it was just trying to find models of people who had done it, and just be like they've managed to do it. It's not that it's not hard, but it can't be impossible. There's definitely a way through if you're committed to, to going on that journey. Yeah. And it's not like innate talent and stuff. It is teachable. Like it is just literal upscaling over and over wanting to be lifelong learner, knowing that you will never get to you don't clock your business. You just learn more, you learn better ways. You tweak things, you try something else, you invest money into something and you fall and to get back up, and you expect the falls and you. Get on with it. I think the difference between someone who stays the cause and someone who just starts a business and then is yeah, it didn't work after 6 months is probably the way they. Are affected by that first fall or subsequent, having a couple of little hiccups along the way and then just not being tenacious enough to be like, I can deal with this. I'm resilient enough to know that on the other side is gross. Like I can actually sort it out. And it's interesting you mentioned the six months, because I feel like a lot of what I'd heard prior to stepping into that was oh, it's two years, two years is make or break and that's that period where you're going to know if your business is, making a profit or if it's just a little pipeline dream and. For me, it was definitely more around six months because six months is when it started to hurt a little bit, like I'm trying to pay my rent and that's coming out in the thousands per month. I'm, supporting myself in purchasing new items that I really needed to make the business work like a new computer or particular software. All of those kind of overheads, you don't think about when you're an employee and you now have transitioned to business owner and you can't get by without some of those things. So even, your website and like some business cut, like you have to buy it all. And so at that point, I think I had 1 client. And I'd never want to sound ungrateful for that because it was absolutely brilliant to even get a client within the first 6 months. But it was just. Stressful kind of transitioning from having a paycheck that you can really rely on that just drops in every month to not knowing where the next money is coming from and just having to try and relax and trust the process. I think I had that on my phone as a little like background that I found on Pinterest, just trust the process because otherwise I think it would be very easy to give up at that point. Cause you'd be like, I just don't know what's really happening here and like how much longer I can hang on for. And there's so much mindset stuff that comes into it when we think about the energy effort and cost that you put in, it doesn't. immediately correlate to clients. And then we get up in our own heads about I must be a bit shit or like maybe all this energy that I'm putting in, I'm putting in the wrong place where I'm bad at business. I'm wrong at business. I w I am working really hard and all I see is crickets. So now I'm in tears on the shower floor and I'm thinking that's because it's just. The effort I'm doing it wrong, or I'm not good enough. That, that pivotal moment is between six and nine months, in my opinion, of running your own business. When you are going all in, when you have guidance, support, and you're doing setting processes, setting up documents, all that sort of stuff. What you're doing effectively is so much work for so zero I don't know, there's no, nobody saying great job. Nobody's saying I'll call when can we book a discovery call? Like it's tumbleweeds, crickets nothing all the time. And it's very hard to front up for nothing over and over again. And that's what it takes really. Like it takes the resilience of ego and emotion to actually go, okay, I'm here again today. I'm going to do more work and get more zeros and nothing at the end of the day. And eventually it clicks. But it's really even like a tiny bit of jealousy can kick in as well. If you see other people succeeding and getting a job, and I really don't consider myself a jealous person. I love celebrating the people around me, but I have to admit I literally couldn't help feeling a little pang of Oh, why not me? I'm trying hard and and then you think, oh, it's a saturated industry and what am I even doing? But. I like to create little scenarios in my mind. And the one that really got me through that mindset shift, was like I was literally employed at a place which had 250 people working full time on design projects. If all of those 250 people left and went and opened their own business, technically, there should be the work out there to support all of them because it already is out there. And that's how they're currently in a job. So I just had to keep reminding myself there is work out there. You just haven't found it yet because there is room for everyone. Otherwise, those large companies or even these small companies just wouldn't exist. So that's a good way to frame it. And I think even just the other day I was talking about. Like challenging back someone in the course saying It think of all the houses that exist just in Australia, let alone worldwide, like each house can benefit from the work of an interior designer. Therefore, there is that many possibilities of clients out there and it's not a saturated industry. It's just about finding a way forward and finding a way to explain what you do and get in front of the right people. And it can be a slow burn, but you do get there. And I think one of the hardest things is when that emotional side. Kind of wins. I guess you have to go into battle with your own head a little bit sometimes too, at the start and the end, you do recognize things like jealousy or things that you're not used to seeing or competitiveness or seeing someone else launch a service and be like, why didn't I think of that? There's a lot in there that people never admit to, but it is all part of being a new business you want to do all the things all at once. It's all, you can only do so many tasks in order to move forward. We're creatives. We're entrepreneurial. We're excited. We get this big mega list right in the back of your head and it can be overwhelming for sure. Yeah, definitely. And I think, my my partner's actually in the process of writing a book and it's given me a good metaphor in a way because he was reading a lot of a lot of literature about, how to write a book because he's never written one before. So it's a whole big thing that he's been undertaking and. One of the key messages that's the takeaway from all of those books is having a strong through line. And I think that really applies to business as well. It's what's your through line? What's the theme that takes you from the start of the book right up until, the ending or in the same way that could be a project or a deal or something. But even with my branding, I was like If I'm going for a more minimalist brand, then I don't want to be offering a million different services. So I really need to refine what I want to offer. So I'm not confusing the consumer. And I think it's those restaurants you go to sometimes they have a very refined menu and you just great. There's. Four mains and maybe I'll just share with my partner so we can try a little bit of something and that'll be fantastic. And we'll have a great time. But then you go to those other like family friendly restaurants and they've got Italian make pages and like all of these different cuisines. And you're like, how do you have that much food out the back? Like, how do you even keep it all fresh? It's crazy. Or like the restaurants that I like where you go and there is no menu, you just trust the chef just bring me whatever's coming today as someone who's like decision fatigue all the time. Those are my favorite, that wouldn't make for a very good service offer, right? It's such an important thing, though. I really love that ideology of hold the line or know where you're going, know what you're doing, and just know that no matter what external forces will change and other things will change, if you plan that correctly from the beginning and you've got a vision, it doesn't have to be a five year plan, you don't have to be funny about it, but if you've got a vision of where the business will be and what it will look like when it Bye. Feels more established. It doesn't feel like it's first year of business. Then it's something to hold on to and to really lean into and think I can get there. It's going to be this. I know what I'm creating. I just need it to fall into practice and start. Absolutely. Yeah. And then similar to, just personal values it becomes some of your business values and it really does inform what clients you take or what decisions you make or yeah, what branding you go ahead with, or even the way that you design your projects, because it all relates back to. Your through line and how you want to run your business. So it really makes you, in my opinion, pretty unshakable when some of those things that could push you off course come around. Yeah, it's a good reminder. I think we should all be plotting that and thinking about that for every business. And it doesn't really matter whether it's your first year or your fifth year. Everyone starts with word of the year or intentions for 2024 or whatnot. And it can be a good reminder to go back in, look at that. Am I still on? Is this still where I'm going? Am I being true to what I originally wanted? Because that's where you fall off is when you never check and you like just ride the wave that is business ownership. And then all of a sudden you've landed in an area that was not the intention at the beginning. And that can be. A little bit interesting. Tell me a bit about your first ever design project as a business owner versus obviously projects that you were undertaking when you worked for someone else. What was the difference? My first design project will be under construction pretty soon, actually, which is very exciting, and it's a townhouse project and it really resonated with me, and I felt so incredibly grateful when the client went ahead, because I've done these scale of projects in the past, but the reason why I left my job is because when get more and more skilled, you get pushed on to bigger and bigger jobs, and I found myself doing high rises and, these enormous hospitals and things, and As much as I could technically complete it, I just didn't feel passionate about getting out of bed to go to work every day. Being able to get that smaller scale of work again really lit me up. So I think it was that first of all, transitioning into that. Excitement about going to work again was one of the biggest wins of having a business because despite any of the other sort of difficult setup kind of things I was going through, it was just the idea of this is exactly what you asked for. Like you couldn't have, manifested anything better than quite literally getting that for your client. And they're an excellent client, like really lovely people. And it helped me. It set up my processes a lot more even though I had to do it on the fly. It really just. To me Hey, there's certain steps that you need to take to make sure that you're mitigating any risk you're like really systemizing things. And thankfully, I'd had probably 4 months prior to meeting them where I had done a lot of that set up because I'd done your course and just doing a lot of behind the scenes setting up. I was really grateful for the downtime, whereas when I was in the downtime, I was really resenting it, but then once I had landed this client, I thought. Wow. I'm actually so thankful that I had. Nothing inverted commas to do back then, because that allowed me that time to get everything in place. And even since then, that project is, has had an evolution and it's really allowed me to create the system that I now have today moving forwards. And it's allowed me to provide extra value to that client as well, because I had them as the first client. They probably got. A lot more than they paid for, if you will, in terms of the fee versus the design, because I just pour my heart and soul into that project. And that's another thing that I think is excellent about having a small business that you aren't too busy running along doing, 50, 000 things or really big project. And you're not as hands on as you'd like to be. You are completely there. Every step of the way on the tools, doing the drawings, picking the finishes. And I think that having that connection in with the client when you're meeting with them, you're not asking a staff member to catch you up. You are the staff member. Their project so deeply and their concerns from the brief and, their sort of aspirations and. I think it, it just made me a better designer because I was able to have that whole control over the experience instead of just a little portion of it in a larger team. Once you've done it that way as well, you then are able to, have that. Initial meeting and explain that's the client experience when you work with my brand versus these big guys, and this is what I bring to it. I'm going to be involved every step of the way, and I'm going to know where your permits are at. And I'm going to be across everything in a way where you don't really get that when there's a huge team. Sometimes, as you say, it's about meetings and communications. That's all wasted time when one person is like managing the whole thing. You're on top of it. You mentioned that sort of that downtime of the time where you were working on setting up the foundations of your business. I heard a while ago I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days when you're in the good old days. You never truly appreciate stuff until you're looking back and going, Oh, okay. It wasn't crazy when I would show up in the calls and be like, take this time, work really hard. You'll never get it back. And as soon as you get the clients that you're dreaming of. You will never have the space to step back that you'll edit and evolve as you say, like you will, you'll get better, you'll decide on different processes and you'll do things that are more aligned to the way you want your brand to run. But you never have that just no distraction time to look at the customer journey and think about who you want to. Be working with how do you want them to feel and what do you want to provide to them? And you sometimes just fall into that out of a baptism of fire because you didn't get support and you're just like, Oh, I've got a client or a friend of a friend. I'm going to do a free job and I'm going to work out this and that. I feel like that takes you a lot longer to get tight systems and feel like you're delivering the kinds of things that reflect the. I guess the zeros on the invoice that you want to be charging and the types of jobs you want to be attracting. You can't be attracting jobs that are like, the townhouses and the other things if you're still sitting in a place where you've just got nothing organized and you're making it up as you go along it would be a lot harder. Absolutely, because especially when you're working, like you say, on someone's house that's a lot of money for anybody, it's one of the biggest investment many people make. So there is an expectation of expertise when people are handing that over to you and trusting you with that project. I always want to make sure that One of the things that's on my list week to week is systemizing, because I think I had that going at the beginning and then it was a backend priority for a little bit. And now it's become a bit more of a front priority to just really make sure like my filing systems all there and I'm communicating with, each client has their touch points when they need to at the appropriate time every week so that they don't feel, left behind or anything. I think one of the key things is it you have to start having big picture visions of your business to be able to go there, you can't live in the present all the time. And it reminded me once I started having that customer journey and that experience that like, when this does grow, I do still want to stay, boutique, like 10 staff, maybe 20 max, if it got big, but that's big. You don't want the 250 staff members and that kind of thing. I might eat my words one day. I don't think so. I think that I really like the idea of just keeping it small and having clients know who it is they're working with and having a bit of a, an open office policy, because I think Some clients, they really do want our expertise and for us to manage things, but other people just want to know am I dealing with you? Who's actually drawing this for me? And, at the moment, I love being able to say it's me. I'm meeting you. I'm drawing. I'm going to be on site. It's me. That really gains people's trust, I think. And I think that's really important. I like that idea of being boutique and knowing what you want as well. I'm always having conversations are you headed towards bringing on staff? Or are you thinking that's not a place? Could you, your business can go as large small as you want to take it. Just as you say, as long as you've got a big picture vision. And for some people, it's I don't ever want to be managing staff anymore. I've already done that. I know. Where I want to cap on where I want to pivot and what I want to do. And others are like, look, I'll go as big as you'll let me like, that's it. Let's go. It's nice to know. And I think having the experience of working for others also shows you what you don't want to be. You've already been able to practice or see the effects of going large or the effects of having a large corporation, and then you can make a decision. For me, no, I don't like to do that. But that doesn't make it wrong. That just means I don't want to be a like figurehead of such a large company. I want to keep it boutique. Yeah. Yeah, I think that has. It's probably been something that's like good to already not out. And I love that you're taking a systemized approach. That's a bit chip away at it because people forget that businesses are forever if you do it right. So today is the very best time to start a standard operating procedure document and just open it and just start with one thing that, you know, back to front and then put it in and then save it and then you've done it. And then try not to. I think I've got to make room every week between meetings to do my standard operation. It's just like, whenever you get 10 seconds, because one day you'll look in there and go, Oh, there's 860 standard operating procedures in here for everything. Gosh, I'm good. I'm glad I did that. It's like sometimes, yeah, breaking it down and not putting any pressure on it, being like a task that has to be done all the time. But just knowing that you want to focus is really good. Yeah. And I think it's how the creative brain works, like we're a different breed than, straight line, more corporate sort of jobs. And we probably do work a little bit more flexible hours. Like we might want to start at 10, but might still be glued to our computer at 10 on the other end, if inspiration strikes. And that's another thing that I've really enjoyed about having my businesses. If I, don't have client meetings of an afternoon, and I really just want to sit there and have a massive block to design and document, then I can, because that's the time that I'm really feeling that. And I get into a really good flow state and I'm able to just sit there and do that for hours and hours. Whereas maybe in the morning, I don't really want to work yet, but I could sit down and do one of those little technical tasks because I just think, whatever, I could just knock that over for half an hour while I've got a podcast running in the background. And. And that's a really useful thing to do, but it doesn't necessarily feel like work. Yeah, I remember us speaking way, way back when and having a conversation about, the structure of other people's agendas in corporate and the expectation when you've got. Perhaps someone else's meeting has dropped into your calendar and you need to be in it at 3. 30 in the afternoon and that's not your optimum time for thinking and you're okay, now I'm staring out of a window on the 23rd floor down south, down the Yarra. Thinking about literally everything else, but what's happening in this meeting. And when we design our own success, we are having yeah, you can have late nights, early mornings, huge gaps in the middle of the day. You still work the same amount of hours, but you're doing it your way. And. Probably gets a way better result out of you. I don't know about, I do think I know that you are the same, there's no point pushing through just to make a nine to five if you're so unproductive for a certain amount of hours. Absolutely. Yeah. I think someone called me, it was a business call or something the other day, and maybe it was like two 30 in the afternoon. And I'd actually just gone out for a 15 minute walk. And I guess they could hear some noise in the background. They said, Oh, I'm sorry if I interrupted you. And I was like, no, Just gone to touch the grass, I'm like, it's just nice to get some sunshine, bit of fresh air, like quite literally do a bit of grounding and then just go back to the office and reset into my next task. I think it just clears your mind a little bit when otherwise, you can just really get into the trap of sitting there and feeling like. You're in this job. And even my partner says you work for yourself. You do your hours and you just make sure that you're meeting all your deadlines and getting everything done. But that doesn't need to look like what you're so used to. You don't need to keep those hours that you used to keep anymore. Yeah. And if you like, yeah, you look at them as a weekly or monthly or whatnot, you're putting in the hours. It just doesn't look like. The expectation that senior management have of you, and you don't have to ask permission to go put your feet in the grass for 10 minutes and then come back again like you can sort it out and that can be for some people. It makes and breaks your life, doesn't it? It's it's life changing to be able to be like, Oh, I no longer have to tell someone I'm doing a coffee run just to get a drink. Yeah. And I've been through my fair share of health issues and things over the years. And it just got to a point that one of the other leading decisions for starting the business was like, I can't. Being in an environment that's conducive to me feeling stressful anymore. Like I need to be in a space that allows me to go and do those activities that are more relaxing because at the end of the day, like stress is so bad for all of us and being able to, do those little mini things that could naturally lower your cortisol levels and keep you healthy is so important because, if you need to show up in your business, you want to be the healthiest, best version of yourself. And. Even in terms of like my morning routine, like I still get up and go to the gym, at 6 30 in the morning, even though I don't necessarily have to be anywhere at a certain time because that just became such an integrated part of my routine that I really enjoyed that I thought I'll keep that habit, but I'll bin some of the other ones because I need a, Packers breakfast and run out the door. I can like calmly stand there and cook something really nourishing and get to work in my own time at my desk. And it just makes me feel yeah, I actually feel like my overall health and well being is improved from being in this business as well, which, some people might say the opposite. They think business is turning them gray. But for me, I think it's really turned the corner in yeah, just feeling really rested and ready to go. I don't doubt that at all. I also think, like we said before, like You're hustling to someone else's agenda when it's your own business. If I work hard, if there's a period where I've taken on a lot and I feel like it busier than I'd really like to be, if I was going to, hashtag balance, I'm not really there right now at this point, but everything I'm doing. I'm doing towards a greater goal that is mine. So then there's a sense of personal achievement, professional achievement. The greater, the profit and everything is for the family. So there's so much more intrinsic. It's not, run to catch the train, get in trouble. If there's a delay, all that kind of stuff, which we know. So I think that's, yeah, there's so much of that, that at least it's a stress. It's stress for my own benefit. Greater good is mine and not I'm hustling, I'm stressed, I'm going great, and I just literally work for you guys. There's such a big change, which I definitely think helps when it is stressful to, to get perspective and think I actually can control this because I've got myself into this situation. I find some strength in that control, that I didn't find when I work for others. And then I always felt like I maybe was hustling, I was doing this, or I was feeling health, like things that were affecting me. And I was getting no other benefits anyway. So it's no brainer. I don't want this anymore. Absolutely. Look, I'm proud to say I haven't run for a train in the last two years. So that's for my dignity. Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. I can relate to that. And so how do you think you're approaching this year differently to this time last year as one of the founding members of the framework we were having calls, we were in pretty strong connection all the time around, set up and getting things ready. So what's the big change for you? How do you feel you're approaching it differently? This time last year, the entire vibe was different, like I was probably feeling really lonely. I think that was one of the biggest things I felt very uncertain, very isolated quite lonely. And thankfully, I had the framework calls every week to keep me sane, to have some sort of semblance of connection to community. Whereas this year it's. It's a completely different feeling. Like I didn't actually take much of a break over Christmas. I had a small break, but I had a few projects to power through on. And I really spent a bit of that time. I was reading a business book which, because I believe, the the writer of the book, it was passion, purpose and profit. Yeah. By Fiona. Yeah. And brilliant book. I've just finished it. And I made that my mission to read over the sort of three weeks of the December, January break. I've since been typing up my notes that I took while reading that book. And I think being in the second year of business. I would be lying if I said I didn't have that idea in the back of my mind of the make or break with the two years, but I just can't help but feel so motivated and excited for this year because it's already been an amazing month of January so far. And I just really feel momentum now. If someone had to pick a word for the year, it would be momentum. Last year was probably like, I don't know just trust the process. And then this year it's keep it going. Yeah. Keep believing, keep moving, keep doing all of those action steps and items. And I think that's something important too. It's you don't want to rest or give up because you do have a few things. I'm definitely a very action orientated person. Keep driving yourself forward and you will keep reaping the rewards of your hard work and see some of those results. The big thing I'm excited for this year is the projects being on site, getting constructed and finally having some photos of my own for my portfolio. you've got a couple of projects on the go. It'd be really easy to just not really attract anything more because you're worried you can't take it on or whatnot, but understanding how they're going to need awareness and they're going to need time to engage and to really reach out to your brand. Be aware. You still need to be looking at different ways that you can get yourself out there and get meetings in the diary, even if you can't start next week, because it's all about that. That momentum of keeping going and making sure when you do have some space that someone's And I was eager to jump in it straight away and fill it so that you can keep it as a cycle and not just as like a burst of activity. And then Oh, I didn't talk about my business for the last four months. And now I've got nothing. Absolutely. And even in the design industry may be a bit of a quirk of it is you can chat to someone and they. They disappear and they have a think or they get busy with life. And then I had one of those come back this week and I think they're about to sign, but it's a really great house project. And it's that lead was still warm, but maybe it just, I just thought I'll give them some space. And sure enough, they've come back and we've had a really great meeting. So you just really never know where your next sort of lead is coming from. So I think. It's very unique in that sense. There's, it's I think, somewhat rare that you just get like a direct person calling you up. And it's really a word of mouth, referrals, connections from somewhere that you may have been or an event or something. But it's a very strange industry in that sense. And it's interesting you mentioned that. Cause yeah, when we talk about leads and, other industries might be like, okay are they warm? Did you close it? What happened? And it's a lot of hours will be like They went to auction and they weren't successful, so they didn't, that, that house, that project is now no longer really, but they're still open to getting help when they find their dream house, like it could take a really long time. I always ponder around things like grand designs and stuff and they film them over five years and I'm like, I really love the show but I'm also like wow that's incredible that they first engaged them or met them and it was a block of land that hadn't been cleared yet and we don't get to see that transformation or we get to see it in real time. 42 minutes TV or whatever, like the fact that they've worked with that, that popped in every year at Christmas time for six years until you get the satisfaction of bam, there's the reveal. And I love that it's 42 minutes for me, but like I look at that and think. That's the same with our leads sometimes like just because somebody says a no isn't an always no and you don't need to harass them the way people do in some industries, it can really be organically like here if you need like now you know more about my business. Whenever there's an opportunity for us to work together I'd love to, and I think that's really important to keep in mind. Not that I meet very many people who would do this, if you're a bit of a reactive person emotionally, or if you're likely to fire up a like, all right, then you don't want to book. Don't like you need to keep in mind that this is unlike any other place in terms of the longevity of relationship. And sometimes you actually aren't in a transactional relationship for a really long time, but you're touching base. Here, there, and people can just rise back up from the ashes and all of a sudden something's happened very quickly and they've come into a house or they need help with something. So no relationships are ever closed in my mind. I think that's something you do really well in your business in terms of an email list. And that's certainly been on my agenda to, to do. And I've done a few test emails. My website's hosted on Squarespace. And they actually have an integrated ability to send emails from there with your subscriber list. The subscriber list is currently sitting at 30, I think, because I've never actively marketed it. But even that, you just never know in terms of statistically speaking, maybe 1 in 30 of those people would actually. Click on something you send through, whether it's an offer of a free ebook or some sort of service or just reminding them that you're there and maybe it's the right time, like you say, but it's that softer approach of keep adding value in the background in the meantime, and when that person's ready to make a decision, you'll still be front of mind. Yeah. That's a huge philosophy of my business, as you just mentioned, but yeah, there's nurture. Every Friday, my email goes out and it's always, I sit down and I think, how can I give something that's quick to implement in a business that everyone can put into their business that'll make their business better? And it's actually got nothing to do with what I put on Instagram. Like they're not carbon copy stuff. I'm, I work really hard to make sure if you're a subscriber on the email list, you're getting something valuable, different, and regular. It's only one email a week. Like everyone can spend 30 minutes on nurturing people. And I don't often get a lot of, I've said it before, like you don't get like a flood of people writing back and being like, love this week's email. But I do get it from time to time. And I really appreciate when people take the time to say, I've just done this and it's made me money or it's done a thing or it's taken the Difficulty out of it. And I now understand it and I can put it into my business, which is worth everything. But I do find that when people do a step to the buyer, part of the buyer's cycle, they almost always mentioned I've been on your email list for ages, or I am excited to get into the framework and get some of that content for myself, because I see all the free stuff because I'm on the email list. It's somewhere out there, a positive interaction with the brand and a regular interaction they can rely on. So if you haven't got one and you're out there listening, I would really recommend, I think it's a good, we look at return on time investment. I just think it's a Good place to go because you own like your own, but it's not like a Zuckerberg environment and you can feel secure and you don't need to buy a tick and you can build that audience and know that they have full autonomy to unsubscribe. That's what I love about it. I never feel shameful for sending stuff out every week because I'm like, guys, your inbox, if you don't find them helpful. Bye Felicia. No bad feelings, like you can absolutely go. But if you do, even one in every four, so once a month, it's a tip that elevates your business or brings you forward or saves you time. I'd be here for that. The amount of junk in my inbox Oh my God. But that's it. It's interesting when you, you break it down into that little chunk, like we were talking about with setting up tasks. Like when you say it's one a week, maybe that sounds like a lot, right? So sometimes when you say it's for a month, that sounds less. Cause now I'm thinking about it in the scheme of 30 days and you say 52 in a year, and it's like. How many other things do I commit to doing 52 times in a year? I go to the gym every day. That's probably, five times a week by 52 weeks. It's not that hard to find an hour to sit down and do some of those tasks. But I think that's organizing those slots in my calendar is something that I've really been wanting to prioritize over this month when I'm getting back into it. It's like, when am I sitting down to do. That's asked because I really respond, more to the time blocking idea than just having it on a to do list somewhere. Yes. Cause it never gets done if it's not in your calendar, it's probably not real. And I think we don't, for want of a better way of framing it, we don't really have excuses anymore because if you know your customer and their pain points and you can use chat dbt, like I can have 101 email subject lines in eight seconds and pick out three, four of my favorite and sketch it out. Dot point, my 10 dot points, like my perspective of that particular topic, and then throw it back into chat GPT to get it like fleshed out and then write it. Now that I've read what chat GPT has done and I go and write it, but I don't even write mine. I voice to text mine as I walk the kids to school because then it's in my voice. So I have done the 10 dot points and I've played back and forth with chat GPT to get a subject line, like what would make you click through and that sort of stuff. And then I think, Oh, this month I'm talking about SEO for creatives and how to understand it without the tech talk. So you're not afraid of it. I'm talking, I've got those plans. Then as I walk the kids to school, I'm pushing Marley in the little bike and I've got my phone in the other hand. And I just talk everything I know about that subject and in a way that I would want to learn it and then tidy it up later. So actually not even sitting down to type it. I just find time to go put my feet in the grass. And I find that gets a good open rate because people know they're going to read it and it's going to be your actual advice for that topic or what you would actually think about. So there's ways, I think you mentioned like having 30 and you haven't really talked about building a subscriber list or whatnot. I think that's one of the biggest things that stops people is they're like 10 out of that 30 are related to me and I'm not going to buy it from me anyway. And feel weird sending a helpful email to 30 people, but. It's got to have that boulder effect. You can't start if you don't just roll the pebble down the hill like it was when nothing will ever happen. So you have to face up to the idea that 30 is as good as it gets until you ask for more because that's what you've got. Exactly. What will those 30 people want to know? And 30 people is a lot of people I think about this studio. It's 2. 8 by 3 meters. It's tiny, teeny tiny. I couldn't fit 30 people in here. So I'd rather have 30 people on my subscription list that I could have an audience with. It's never too small. Absolutely. And what's the worst that happens? They Unsubscribe. And it's not that bad, trust me. When they unsubscribe, I'll be okay. No, but it is in your analytics and it's okay because I don't want you here if you don't want to be here. I never want to work with, I don't want to work on someone's interior design business who's kicking and screaming, I do not want you near it. I don't want you here. I never came to you. I want connected, engaged. People who feel nurtured by my emails and then want to be in my world because I'm not the same as other coaches. And so if you get onto my list and it's not what you hoped for, and it's not like connecting to you, please go like that's good for both of us, because otherwise I'm looking at it and thinking, Oh, maybe my content's not very good because it's not getting the right engagement, but it's just the wrong person. So I would just much rather have a clean list of 30 who love being there than a list of 300 when, 270 of them. I don't know, like it's just, I do feel like it's Yes or no, there's no gray area. That's what I always say. It's either a yes or a no. And there's plenty other people out there that can offer you something else if it's in the gray area, because the gray areas, either, like you say, those warm leads that will come around or it's someone who maybe they weren't serious in the first place or maybe you're just not for them. And either of those is completely fine. Totally fine. Same on Instagram. Unfollow. I don't, I never want to be. That's what. Upsets me more is to be annoying to people that they don't want it. Like the content that I make, I work really hard to be valuable to the person who needs to read that or is connected to my brand. There's no, there's, it's not helpful for me. If You know, if we went to school together, so you got your friends in the work room to follow me, but they just like, and work as surgeons or whatever and they're never gonna run the interior design. And they're like, oh, this is horrible content all the time.'cause it's not for them. there's no benefit to anybody. And I think I'm really loving the, it's not new, but I guess in the last three years, the shift away from like follow count being like you land on someone's page and then you see they have. 50, 000 followers. So you're like, Oh, they're more validated or they're a real business or whatever. I love now that shift is really prevalent in that whatever, like no one cares about the following account. And if you like, it can go backwards all the time. And to me, that's just a positive that you're cleaning out what shouldn't be there. And that you're actually refining the level of engagement. So you can have a more engaged, better community versus a really large community that aren't really interested in what you do. Exactly we mentioned before that you were part of the founding group of the framework. And I'm sad to say I've had to say goodbye to you all this month, which has been like bittersweet because I love, love, love around the eight. month mark, I started to notice nobody needs me anymore of these first guys. And you've got others coming into the course who were showing up every week for the mentor sessions and stuff. You'd get this guest appearance every now and again from an OG who just was like, I need you for something. I want to workshop something with a client and they'd come in and I'd be so excited. But it's like a proud moment where you're like, Oh, you've done the whole course. You've watched all the lessons you've implemented everything. And now you don't really have to show up all the time. In terms of, the resource library side of things, was there a particular tool, template inside of that was your favorite or that you found really helpful about starting a business? I think even just the fact that you had the entire thing set up on Notion Notion is now a daily part of my life and I had really rarely used the platform prior to that. I think I had a personal account where I'd done some travel planning and things like that, but I'd never considered templating it for my business and. Having that overview of the whole resource library and how it had really been set up again. So systematically and so organized definitely appeals to me as a very organized person. And I think just having that vision was like I know there's tons of useful stuff here, but. The number one place I started was the business checklist, because there was a big checklist of have you done all of these little foundational steps? And while I had done about half of them, there was definitely some little things on there that, if you're not really into that world, or you don't know someone who's done it before, maybe don't know to do a Google my business. So maybe you don't know to, SEO the images on your website or something like that. And, I would say it was just that really making sure that what you're setting up has been done properly from, the very beginning so that you do have a strong foundation in your business. And then other than that, it was just binge watching the videos whenever I could really, I just didn't realize there was going to be so many videos in there. So I would just pop my laptop down, while I was cooking, or if I just, instead of watching TV, I would just set it up and think I'm going to do three videos. Tonight, and I had a little notepad out and I would just really just make the most of every single piece of content in there. That's so good. It makes me laugh. It's my tricky way of forcing you to learn Notion so that you can go because honestly, you can create so much for your own business that in your own way that works to your own mind because everybody is a little bit different. And so Notion. I'm glad that's something that came out of it for you, because it is like this little secret gift. It's got nothing to do with anything, but it's if you actually learn how to use the app, there's something for everything you're going to want to do in your business, be it trackers, financials, like you can just start to build all your own side pages and learn a bit more of it. And at the same time, you can just access the resale library if you never get around to it, because you're not very techie and you don't want to, but for those that work like our brain, it's like that type A wants all the check boxes, wants all the things. It's nice to get the skill to build it. And the checklist makes me laugh because when I was creating it, I was like, Oh, obviously, if you're going to do an entire module called the setup, you're going to want to check off and make sure. And I realized that my business was unregistered, going through it. And I was like. Last time I got a letter for the registration, is it up to date? And I like went in and I was like, Oh, no, that means paying that he's doing. So even when you're like in it, you can forget the foundational stuff that you did right back at the start. And what had just happened is we bought the house and moved during COVID. And I just hadn't updated, we'd Got, I've obviously gotten a renewal letter to my old property and not realized. So thank you to the writing of the framework for those things. But lots of people say, Oh, I'm set up. So I'll just start here. And I'm like, it would never hurt to go back. Cause you don't know what you don't know, like you said. And then, it can be that there's just one element that can be really helpful later down the line that you've jumped right past, because no one ever told you, you have to get that done. That's it. And I've always said, I don't think any task is beneath me to learn. And, at some point in time, yes, you may need to outsource certain bits and pieces of your business. Cause it wouldn't be practical for you to spend your time doing those sorts of tasks. Particularly, admin side of things, if you were to want to hire in a VA or someone to help with that kind of stuff. But yeah, I wanted to know that I had gone through every little bit. And ticked it off because it just gave me a feeling of comfort that like I really followed a bit of a process and could comfortably say that those things had been done. And I think that's a great attitude because the best business owners know how to do everything from take the garbage out all the way up to walk on stage and receive the award on behalf of the entire team. I'm going to interrupt my conversation here just for a moment to let you know that the framework is actually having a quick doors open period on the 8th of March to celebrate International Women's Day. I want to help as many women as possible who are out there who are struggling a little bit, be it with Imposter syndrome processes systems, knowing exactly what to deliver to their customers and when, how to find clients, how to bring them into your world, how to keep them sustaining your profit and all the things you need to know about running an interior design business. The framework has it all covered. We have your community and we are there and waiting, so if you are somebody who is on the wait list or you're not yet on the wait list, but you're interested in the framework, DM me on Instagram at oleander underscore and underscore Finch the word framework and I will send you a whole bunch of extra information to explore a place to sign up to the wait list and you will get notified in the morning of the 8th of March. It's a Friday when we open up for the 24 hours to celebrate International Women's Day. There is a lot that needs to happen and it can be completely overwhelming. That is something that comes up time and time again. Is just how there's so many things that I want to do that I need to do that I know I need to do. And I just don't know how to break it down into micro tasks and follow the step by step. Transformation from, I want to have a design business that's bringing in clients and has clean processes and I know exactly what to do with it, what to offer, what services I'll offer and what to price them at, everything like that is covered inside of the framework. So, if you're interested, drop over to my DMs over at oleander underscore and underscore binge, DM me the word framework. I'll flick you an email with some further information or follow the link in the show notes. And I think that always makes great leadership and great businesses because. Yeah, you're writing a standard operating procedure or you're doing a thing like you're gonna need to have done it yourself. There's no point just being like, Oh, what will the process be for my minions? You want to be able to say that you've Done everything in your business and then it runs the way that reflects the best on you or that you're engaged with. I don't want to just be Oh, we'll just get an offshore VA and they can set the process for that. And that'll just be the process for anyone who comes in. That to me is horrifying. I really need to feel as though I've considered it from everyone's perspective. And chosen the one that is right for Oleander and Finch, not like just anyone. Oh, absolutely. I'm very much like that. I think one of my biggest struggles in business is like giving up control. And I think probably a lot of people could relate to that, because you do really invest so much of yourself in creating a particular brand and level of service. You want to put a particular amount of quality out there that associates with, your values and it really. Is difficult to hand over things sometimes because you have this idea of they're not going to do it as fast as I can, or as good as I can. And everything reflects on you at the end of it. You're like, I'm the face. It's the brand. It's my brand. It's my business. I built it. Like it can get really entwined emotionally and it's really hard to know which parts can be handed off and still make you feel comfortable. That's it. But I think, being as passionate as I am about my business, I've also seen other people who are excellent in their field or in their area of expertise. And it's just about finding the right people that you can trust with your business. And I got burned in the early days and we've talked about this. A marketing company who shall not be named that really did a number on me. And. Wasted, thousands of dollars on a service that just wasn't provided. But I just thought, you know what you can't let those things get you down. You just have to chalk it up to a bad experience and, just a bad person, but it doesn't mean everyone in that industry can't be trusted and you should never out marketing ever again. It just meant that I spent a lot of time upscaling and doing it myself. And I felt really pleased with the amount of, SEO and marketing stuff I learned. And then. When I felt like I hit the ceiling of my knowledge in that area, I was like now's the time to reach out for help again, because I've taken it to this point. And I'm now confident that I can't take it any further. And I do really want to speak to someone who's passionate about that field that can drive me to the next level. Yeah, it's always good to know, we talk about wanting to learn things and being a sponge and absorbing all those things and excited about that. But I think it's also your responsibility to be able to advocate for your business and talk the talk. And you can lose so much in respect and money and so on just constantly looking to outsource things that don't light you up without having a working knowledge of them first. So you're not having conversations with that's sometimes how we get taken advantage of is that we're like I don't know, what are you offering? What does it cost? Oh, yeah, I suppose I wouldn't want to do that. But if you've done it for the last 18 months, you're like, this is what part of it I don't like doing. This is the bit where I actually, your efforts would be best place. And I'm continuing to do this part. You just have a lot more control, over what Needs to happen instead of like accidentally being taken for a ride or having people tell you what needs to happen when you're like, is it okay? Like completely. Yeah. Cause even in terms of, let's say Google ads or some sort of SEO strategy, it was like, What keywords are we going to generate? I'm like, no one knows your business. Like you, like your business might have more heavily geared towards the mentoring side and the e design side. Whereas for me. The person who had set it up had just put interiors only, and I'm an architect, so my predominant skill is architecture and interiors and they were really just marketing toward one side, and it was like, that's really detrimental to my business, because had you asked me, or had I advocated more for myself, we could have really sat down and created a proper keyword list together that really reflected the range of services instead of them just, making an assumption and me not checking, and you don't know that, I've had similar experiences with social media companies and it's it's hard because I can imagine on their side as well. It's You aren't even in the same industry. So how are you the expert on the keywords? I really feel like when we're talking keyword specific that yeah, the business owner is the expert and you're just going to be doing like hashtag interior decor, hashtag room decor and things that you're seeing. But that isn't what my client searches for because someone who wants to find me, I know what they search for. You don't know that. So it's almost there's a great. I guess cross section where you do a lot of the research and you hand the research over and then they can do what they do well, but, and everybody aligns. I think that's a way better way of approaching it sometimes then they don't know you're in whatever industry, you could be peanut farmer. All of a sudden, they've got a hashtag nutshell. It's just not quite sure what's going on. We talked about work life balance and that sort of thing, but not being, not falling into a trap of being all consumed by your own business. Cause when we start a business, it's so exciting. There's so much to do, like I mentioned before, everything's on the possibility list of what we can do and how have you approached that so that you can create a life that isn't just all about this new business. I would love to say I'm in a position to talk on that, but I'm not sure I'm there yet, and I think honesty is the best policy with yourself and with others around you, because I am definitely aspiring to get back to that balance this year. But I didn't allow myself that last year and I did, find myself catching a cold more often. And, so what I have then you're like, damn, now I've got to take 3 days off because I'm feeling rubbish and I don't get paid sick leave and. And that was exactly what I was referencing back to before about your health is so important and making sure that you prioritize and give yourself the flexibility that you desired, because that was, that's what I wanted. I wanted to be able to, work from home or have those flexible days or be able to go for a walk or get some sunshine, which is probably what I'm going to go and do after this, and. And I think I'm starting to structure my days in a way where that is possible. And I think the systemizing of things is really allowed for that as well, because it means that not only am I just spending time on the projects, I'm spending productive time. I'm writing myself a proper game plan of what has to be done and. For example, this morning, I had some documentation tasks to get done, and I just immediately sat there and set up the sheets that I needed for those drawings and dropped on some views because I was like that's front of mine. Now, those are set up there and that has to get done today. So once you get that set up, then you're like I'm going to have some spare time, to be able to do a podcast or I'll have some time in the afternoon to take some more client calls and. Yeah, I think it's just structuring, it sounds funny to say structure for balance, but I do think it helps because without the structure, like, how do you find time off for the balance? I don't know, TBC, I'll have to let you know when I figure it out. It's a skill you've got to learn it and you've got to, celebrate those small things and sometimes you've even just got to have recognition of them. Like when you are sitting in a cafe and you're doing some work and then you're like, oh. I'm in a cafe, like I have designed a success what it looked like for me when I was in office. That's actually, yes, I'm still working. Yes. I feel like I'm always working and I've seen an inquiry coming on the website at nine o'clock at night and I've replied and scheduled it to go out at 8am. So they don't know I'm replying at nine o'clock at night, but I've done the work. Like we are all guilty of things like that. And I think sometimes it's good just to have Awareness of the pockets when we are designing our own business and saying it's my rules, my business, I'm doing the thing. That's always nice to sometimes just to know that, oh, that's what balance actually is. Like it's things in moderation and it's pockets of time control and it is scheduling and it is knowing that I'm getting faster and better at something that like a year ago, if you'd tasked me this task, I'd have to create a process. For a start, create like the next step of it, work out how I want to package it up and deliver it back, and then call it complete and replicate it next time, but you'll be on that now so that can hopefully make things this year like faster because you're not starting to create the process. Yeah, and I think even instead of using the word balance maybe we're trying to say boundaries, because I've. Again, you just have to figure out what you do and don't like as you go along and I lean towards being a little bit more anxious sometimes, and I know that I'm creating that state within myself that someone else would be in the same experience and not feeling what I'm feeling, but if I get too much correspondence, like I'm talking, someone's calling me, they're texting me, and they're emailing me. And they're not scheduled to be done today. I'm not saying I wouldn't respond to them. But, if you've time blocked when you're going to reply to emails and someone then proceeds to contact you on multiple avenues, it can feel very overwhelming. Something that I've really been mindful to set up when I speak with clients, even right from the initial consult in the last few months of the business has been. What's your communication style? This is my communication style, and this is how we're going to communicate on the project. In the instance, something's urgent. You've got this avenue, but otherwise we'll keep everything, let's say to email is the preference or on the client dashboard because that allows me, to feel calm and peaceful and resourceful about my state throughout the day. But it also means that Okay. Just relax. Here's the dates that these things are coming. Everything is happening. I am reliable. I'm not going to let you down. If you urgently need to speak to me, you are more than welcome. But I really resent being relentlessly texted by somebody because in terms of legalities around that sort of thing as well. It's I need you to send me email correspondence. I can't be texting you about building issues over a text message. It just wouldn't, it's not the proper avenue, so I think it's, I was getting frustrated, at the client and then I was like, no, it's you, it's your fault. Like you need to be the one communicating and setting that up because they haven't done anything wrong. They just want to talk to me. And So now I've had that much more calm approach and set that from the beginning, it's been brilliant. And I haven't life changing, isn't it? It's so good when you're able to put that expectation into play, but you're also like, you've given them an escalation process, they know if it's urgent. And then one thing that I remember doing when I was I guess practicing this boundary or starting with this is that if they were texting me, I was replying to the text via email back to my style of communication that I've asked for. So I have still gotten back to you, but I haven't texted you back. I've emailed you back to say I received your text message. It was after hours. So you'll notice this response is coming in out, things that are like drawing their attention. Like a little tap on the hand, you've done the wrong thing, but not no, this is inappropriate. It's nothing major, but it's like practicing boundaries for me right way back at the start. And and that might look like getting back to them when it does pop up because that's convenient to me, but not. Like scheduling it so they're not receiving it at that point. So then they're not thinking it's a back and forth conversation. It's more okay, this is convenient right now for me to sit down and just sort this out. But always schedule everything into business hours. So that what I said I was going to do is actually what I'm doing. And it retrains them to realize they're not getting anywhere unless it is. And an emergency, in which case, obviously, if someone texts you and says, someone's on fire and they need something straight away, you can be there for them. Exactly right. Yeah. And it is hard because when you're dealing with people's houses, it's very personal and you do almost create a friendship with your clients and it's very warm interaction. I never want to seem cold if I'm like, potentially ignoring someone, or, if that's their interpretation of it. So it's striking that balance between letting someone know you really care and value them, but there just needs to be a professional way to go about it. Yeah. Because you're protecting your mental health and your own space as well. Cause you times that by how many clients and then next minute, and there's other things in people's lives, believe it or not. And, from me with kids. Yeah. I never want my kids tugging at my clothes, asking for a snack, asking for my attention with me tapping away, writing back to someone over like the, I don't know, the positioning of a doorframe and thinking like this is not important stuff to be done at eight o'clock at night. Exactly. We can't silence life, but you can turn notifications off. Thank God. All right, last question from me. I'm going to play a new game for this season called Perks and Irks. What is one thing that you've noticed about the interiors industry that you love and something that makes you roll your eyes? Oh something I love is just the exploration and the creativity. I will never get sick of looking and scrolling on Pinterest. It's almost a favorite part of my morning routine. And I just love seeing what people come up with. I think our industry is. Is so creative and I love seeing new products, whether it be furniture or tiles or, carpets and lighting and all of the beautiful kind of things that come along with creating a space. And yeah, I will just never, ever take for granted being able to, create that stuff. I saw a quote the other day and it said beauty is important. And I thought, absolutely. Like we have a lot of. Human pursuits in life, but it would be lying if we said we didn't love looking at a beautiful flower, in the same way that we don't love living in a beautiful home. And we get to call it work, which is even better. Yeah, I know. It's definitely a pinch me moment on some of those projects. I just think, wow, I can't believe I get to do this. And what about X? Is there anything that drives you nuts inside of the industry? Absolutely. A massive arc for me, and I don't know why this emerged, but it just the money thing. They're like, Oh, I'm a six figure seven figure. It gives me the ick. I'm like, what is that about? Like it's never, I understand. We all, we have money goals and aspirations and you want to make a profit margin, have a healthy business and, create opportunities for yourself that enhance your lifestyle. But I think design at its core, as far as I've always been brought into the sphere of it is that it's a love job. It's you really just enjoy doing what you're doing. And I think. Yes, on one hand, there are limiting beliefs that a lot of us, myself included, have around the value of our services and, money in terms of just a limiting belief around what you can charge for fees and getting respect from clients in that sort of sense. On one hand, I'm like, yes, let's talk about money and let's let people know. Why designers are valuable and why we should get paid X, Y, Z fee, but on the other hand, I'm like, can we stop saying seven figure something? It just sounds so false. I just really don't enjoy it. I have controversially posted about it before, and I've definitely copied it from different areas who I do hold the same thing, but only because. I'm very much about owning your goals and six figures for who and what does that mean? And is it six figures profit? Is it six figures cumulatively over the course of five years? Is it, what does 100, 000 mean to you in a world where that's now, yes, check your privilege, but that's now almost a medium wage. So what is it about six figures specifically that Inspires you or engages you if that's not your goal, and I would challenge anyone saying to me, my goal this year is 100, 000. Why? What is it about that number? That's gonna is that a thriving number for you? That's bigger. Is that double your previous corporate salary? Because I doubt it. Is it? Is it? Keeping you so that you don't have to work at night packing at Coles and you can be with your kids, find an emotional connection to why and pick a number. I don't care if you come to me and say that number is 112, 645 because you've done the, you've run the figures and that's, what's going to make you a specific amount that's going to keep you in this business and keep you happy. But. It's lazy to me to just have six figures or seven figures as your target, because I feel like you're not emotionally connected to that at all. You don't understand what pieces that is profit. And yeah, sure. It's impressive, but it's so not impressive when it's just cacophony of noise online and everyone's heard it. And I would much rather you spend 10 minutes teaching me one that got you there or telling me one thing that you found helpful in your journey to six or seven figures and just leave that. Part of it out. Yeah. If it's more exactly what you're saying, I think I'm a bit of a rational thinker. So I don't really connect into those sorts of messaging. I think I really want to know like quantitative or qualitative outcomes that led to having that. And then I find it aspirational and inspirational because I think I would never want to rubbish anyone who's got that. Cause I'm like, that's incredible. That is absolutely a goal. And particularly for women to be, earning these amounts is incredible, but I just want to. Have a little bit of I want the veil lifted and I want the transparency. That's a hundred percent what I agree with, because I think women need to see what's possible and they need to understand that you can have children. You can have six figure businesses. I have Kate tune coming on the podcast this season talking about six figures in school hours. And I really resonated with that book for that exact reason of being like, no, this is the practicality of it's. It's completely possible to everyone out there who's willing to work for it, but it's the use of it as a term as though it's a. There's no, you're not looking at anyone's bottom line. So you're not understanding how much of it is reinvested into paid advertising on Facebook. For example, like every business is running differently. And I think it misrepresents for those who are just coming up the ranks and they're like, okay she's telling me I can have regulated nervous system and I can be out of the business for more than I'm in it and I can, as long as I plan everything, then I'm going to trip over into six figures and a lot of what made. And I think it's really important for them to do that is bringing their past experience, their 20 years of business acumen into the startup of their business or getting really great coaching from the outset and being challenged on their pricing and like going into the market, strong and understand there's so many complexities in the background that I think it's just, that's, again, what I would agree with the ERC is just that it's not one size fits all six or seven figures. A whole bunch of nuance in between that you get to tweak and play with to get a result. That's it. And sometimes I think, if you provide the value, the money will follow. And you can celebrate those wins, however you like, but I've always just thought, the bigger projects come from showing that you can provide that value. And I don't think my clients really. They probably wouldn't even want to see that I'm making a particular amount of figures, because that's a weird thing, isn't it? I think it's more from the coaching side, it's not really the messaging that I want to communicate to my clients. I'm trying to communicate. Like I said, a quality design that really adds value and therefore is worth a certain amount. And that amount then falls by the wayside when people move into a home that they really love because they sense the value along the journey throughout that process and then they move into a space and say, it's perfect, yeah, I think that's something that I definitely because I've obviously lived both the design business and then the flipping to the coaching side of things and the course creation and that world is absolutely all about the six or seven figures you have to prove. You have to be saying what you're earning in order to be a valuable coach. Whereas I feel very heartland as I always have in my design as well. I'm exactly like you when I'm all in, the rest falls into place because of word of mouth, because of people who've experienced the framework, gone all the way through, very proud of the course, don't need to 100 percent always be saying there's this in it and that in it and blah, blah, blah. So much as being able to say, look, it's there. It's going to help you through. This is what other people have experienced. And then talk about those micro transformations that people have actually had that have been through the cause without just constantly, talking about what I have done or have made of my own business, because I'm spending a lot more time with the girls inside of the framework that I am in my own business. So it's irrelevant now. Like it's not as, I don't know, not front and center. And so I think that it is. When you do have that feeling of like it's hard to front up and show up in the same marketing arena when you feel that you don't think there's any transparency to that message or there's nothing in it. I don't. That doesn't mean anything to me because I don't know any of what you've actually spent the money on or done. It's harder because you think I just won't say anything about it then, I think. Exactly. But again, I guess I'm saying similar to what we said about, running a particular business or not, like different things resonate with different people. If that messaging resonates with someone else, then that really does. Give them the kicker of motivation that they need then I think that's great. And that's the right person for them, which I truly believe too. It's if you're attracted by the six figures. As a, like a metric that you need your coach to be shouting about getting, then go to that coach who shouts about getting it, because that's the right fit for you. And then you need to find if you're in the right place, clearly, cause you get irked by it. Like I do. So you came along to my course, which is just a little bit different and can be really good in the design space to knowing who you're not for and not apologizing for it. So just being like, what? That project, just as you mentioned, the high rises, I know a great firm, but I'm not for that in this boutique business that I'm building. That's not going to be my dream sort of space or project to work on. Yeah, exactly it for today. Thank you so much for your time. It's nice to catch up. I feel like I wish I could just leave an open invitation so that you guys can just pop up in the zoom calls from time to time, but I'm very confident that you no longer need them. And that everything that farmer is doing is amazing. I'm going to link everything into the show notes so people can check it out. Keep an eye on the big things that are meant for you in this world going forward. Brilliant. Thank you so much for having me and I look forward to having you out on one of my sites later this year when it all gets up and going we can put our little hard hats on and go for a wander. Cannot wait. Thanks Emma. Thank you. Bye. I really loved that chat with Emma because I loved hearing about, her trusting the process and, and watching that through line and, and the sort of really structured way that she has approached the last year and a bit starting up Formory. Go and check her out. All of her details will be in the show notes. As I mentioned somewhere in the middle of this podcast, the framework is opening up for International Women's Day, for some new students to come in. I would love to work with you. I would love to help you the way I've helped Emma just get clear on things, understand what to do in the back end and to systemize her business. So if that's something that interests you, please come and chat to me over at www. oleanderandfinch. com or find me on Instagram at oleander underscore and underscore Finch. Chat to you next week. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.