Constructing Careers: Rebeka from BuildHer Collective

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Transcript

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Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success.

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Hey, Rebecca, how are you? Hi. Good. How are you? Good. So lovely to have you here. I've been looking forward to chatting for ages. Yeah, me too. It's taken a hot minute, but we got there. I feel and this might be an incorrect memory, but I feel like you and I had a conversation way, way back. When did you went to interior Design Institute for a little while, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I did too. And I remember you being one of the only people to pop into my inbox and champion me and support me at my very, not very vocal, but at the fact that I wasn't, I was full of clients. And so I didn't have kind of the capacity with my very young children to finish the last couple of modules of my degree. And even though that's probably not. Necessarily, advice that you're giving out. Sometimes it's just the practicality of life. And I had those tiny kids and it just wasn't working when I was getting paid clients. And I remember very distinctly you popping in as somebody that I admired that was further on saying, Hey, it's okay if you don't actually get the last little bit done. If you're exchanging it for a career, like just get in there, roll up your sleeves, do what you need to do. And then you can always return when the kids are a bit bigger or it's always open to us as an option. And so I would say, yep. So thank you for that. Cause it was nice to somehow get that to a lot of people. And it is a controversial issue and it's not. You go with your own circumstances and what feels right at the time, like everything in business and life, you just have to look at the pros and cons for the moment. And it was really nice to have someone say, nothing will explode on the other side if you don't get the piece of paper and you can always go back and finish that last little bit, which is still on the cards for any of us that want to do that. But yeah, thank you for that. I always remembered being like, Oh, okay if if you think there's options out there, it's just like bypassing. University and maybe finding your pathway through TAFE and into another thing at another time. There are, it can look very different for different people and it's not just everyone the same. So thank you. I think that's the beauty of so there's some drawbacks in the way we live now for sure, but some of the beauty of it is you can recreate yourself. many times, I started out commercial construction. Then I was a quantity survivor. Do you know what quantity survivors do? No, not in detail. So go tell us. Basically I go through, I was going through properties and I worked for I worked for Charter Cake Primer, which was a big kind of property company. But my job was to check the quantities inside the project or the house or the building or the warehouse or the construction or. The apartment lot and see that you could build it for that price. So I would have to work out how many bricks went in it and how much carpet was required and how much which was fun. And it's a game of numbers wasn't for me for long term I like there was a cap to me in my learning capacity. And then I moved to project management client side, and then I went and was a general manager of a building company. In my early twenties, what were, what kind of me to late twenties, what were they thinking? Innovation and the next generation and breathing light. Some people just have a leadership quality though, that I think even age transcends. So I know, with certain roles, sometimes you're promoted into this position that you think, Oh my gosh everyone With one of a better word beneath me is older than me, but there can be qualities in what you bring, allow you to actually be the right fit. Yeah, I think I went for a job as a project manager. And when I was there, I was like, do you know what, that's going to be much of the same. I said, I tell you what, honestly, there's something So bold about someone in their twenties with less experience. And I tell you what, though, I don't want to project manage your job, but I'll write you a one page strategy or I'll write you a strategy and become general manager of your construction company. So good. I love it. Is there an age old adage that they say, somewhere out there, there's A man who's probably less qualified than you, but that is more capable of going in and asking for the role. That's that thing that you sometimes have to remember that masculine energy and just feel a little bit like, okay. Or in this case, your 20 year old self should be coming out and doing all of these pitches because your 40 year old self is a bit like do I send it? What if they say no, it's just. Let's embrace the 20 year old me. Cause I would have sent that to 15 companies. I don't know what I was thinking. I think I did a masters of entrepreneurship and innovation which was fun, but I love business actually. I love, I think that's why I like the renovation and building game and then helping people do it is because like in business, it's really just a problem. You've got these kind of, you've got a set of rules that you can break or choose to keep. And then you've got an outcome. The beautiful thing about a renovation or a build process is normally it's got a finite period of time. So that works well for me and my attention. So I'm like, I'm tapped out. I want a new game, which was great. Like it was one of those roles, the big roles, seven in the morning to 7 PM. And I made massive mistakes. I shut down Sydney road one time. Anyway, it doesn't matter. We grew that company and that was fantastic. But my boss said to me. You like, if you wanna succeed, you really need a house husband. And what he meant was that if I wanted to be with kids, I didn't have my own kids at that point, but I had in inherited a six and 8-year-old. Those children needed, they came to live with me full-time and they needed some extra support. And I was like, I won't miss that. That's a gift. And so I took the. The sneaky back way and said, I've got some family things and I'll come back or I'll go part time and I'll, and I actually resigned, but on good terms with the door open that I could come back if I needed to, but found my way from there. And I think the issue with commercial construction and that big career that we sometimes chase when we're younger or in our twenties or when we're bold is that it doesn't necessarily fit with the bigger picture of. Life as we get older and we're like actually, we want different things, the evolution and then the fulfillment just. That doesn't align, does it? It can be a little bit like, I feel like I can, you can have X or you can have Y, but you can't have it all. And I do think that if you want to have it all, there's compromise and you have it all in different levels so that you can't have it all at top level. You can't be the best of it, at home and at work and here. I think you have to sometimes find a balance. Strike a really nice, I'll pull back the hours here in the workplace a little bit, increase a little bit here and get a taste. It's like a grazing platter of everything and that'll be fine. But I don't know, I really struggle with the idea of it being all in, in all areas, all the time. And the expectation that we're given from a young age that we can have it all and it will be easy. It's there's times where. Things are running well called and you feel like you're nailing it and you're like, actually, I can, I am having it all. And there are so many times that those glass balls just drop and shatter. Okay. I'm not, it's just the nuance and light and shade of life. And I think that we don't allow for that sometimes in our 20s because we are so blinkers on focused on the, don't have to look after anyone else. We've got like everything is selfishly out. So if you want to work 10 hours, 12 hours, you want to get ahead. It's very easy because you've got that kind of, the ability to use the drive and the hours, but then things change. So I just finished reading it. Just not just finished, but I've just read a book called Wifedom last year. And in that it talks about, oh, it's actually George Orwell's kind of. Story that is actually about his wife, who's written out of everything, but how if he didn't have her to support and to do all the things that she was doing, there's no way he would have been afforded the time or energy to be able to create. And so that to me is the dilemma. It's you need support to be able to create, but then we want to do it all. And someone was saying, Oh, you could get a babysitter. I'm like, I don't want a babysitter. I want to be there. I want to do all the things, but I don't I just want more time. This I cannot grant because I am exactly the same. And it's, Yeah. And it can be hard when you're naturally, ambitious and other things. And then every time that you want to grow and add more hours into work feels like. I'm very protective of my calendar. And I feel that's something that you do learn over time. And then that is purely because every minute that I spend in my business, doing things with clients, doing things, it's a minute away from my kids. It's a minute. I can't sit on the floor and pay attention with my full attention. So everything is time blocked and everything is done, but in a protective way, because there are certain times and it's just like you. Yeah, I could get help. I could get things, but I like to. Doing those things, I like my children. You don't, you don't have them to want to add more calendar hours that keep you away from them. It's that balance is supports your mental health and your wellbeing as well. Cause you want to be part of that. And I want to miss out on the time because I want to throw everything into business. I do love it. And I do love doing my work, but in conjunction with, and when it's my kid's time, that's where I want to be. Yeah, I think that time that calendar works well, like I only let people book meetings in on a Wednesday and a Friday with me, they're back to back days, but then I've got creation days like a Tuesday and then Monday is half. It's a bit of team bit of that and then Fridays is my design day. So I'm in the office with I'm back and we'll do project work. So everything's got a rhythm around it. I don't have to carry the mental load and thought of it either. Does that make sense? I always laugh. I had a coach and we would have actually, I also have an osteo. It's the same problem. It's like we have the same meeting each week at the same time. And she's I can't do this week. We'll move it. And I'm like, I won't show up. I'm like, I would want to. But like I'm a creature of habit and I just know it to be Wednesday at four or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And I've missed those appointments so many times that I'm like, if I can't do it at that time or I don't establish a route now, it takes up space in my brain and I can't, I don't want to put things in my brain that I have to think about. I just want a rhythm that you set up and those habits, have it been a big topic at the moment or has been for a few years. How do you create those habits that allow you to succeed because you're just on autopilot for those? Portions of things. How do you find time blocking the task of creativity? Because for me, like sometimes when the wind picks me up and I'm enthused and I'm feeling it, I'm like, I'm gonna ride this wave because I'm really in it and I'm really getting a lot of the creative work done. But you've got a day set aside to that do front up to that day sometimes. And like we're not performing monkeys like sometimes like I guess some you just not feeling that. Do you just sub it out and do something else instead? Or how do you manage that? Just do different tasks that is exciting. I'm, my brain works really well, we were talking about this before, my brain works really well in the morning, like early morning when it's dark, I can't even tell you, I don't know whether it's like I get a dopamine hit from the smugness that everyone else is asleep and I'm like getting shit done and my brain's going, it's just so much fun. So rarely will I get up in the morning and not have fun. I am a bit excitable. Like I, and distractible as it will be. So I have people around me that take the tasks that I'm not naturally good at. And so I'm a little bit different to you in that I have a team. My daughter was sitting next to me doing my homework last night, which. So I'm pulling teeth. She's like a mini me. It's like she has, someone's told her she has to do it by a certain date. So there's no way she's doing it by that date. There is, cause I'm making it happen. But, she's like, how many people do you have in your team? What are their roles? I was interviewing me. Am I? And I was going through them. I'm like, I have a team of eight, but they do different things that I am not good at. I don't document. I won't find time to document. I, I don't generally, I won't book flights. Things like that. I actually booked a flight last week because, I decided last minute that I would go to Gold Coast and do a house tour, but like during that flight, I was booking it and I was talking to the person I was going out to see, and I checked the date with her because I'm so bad. She's that's not the date. It's like those things I'm just not that interested in. So I get rid of them. And then that frees up the time to do exciting things. And sometimes like I won't set necessarily the task, but I've always got a running list. We've got a feasibility course, right? I'm not meant to be rebuilding that. I'm really not, but I got excited. Yeah. And, like yesterday and last night, I'm like, Oh how do I solve I've had someone asked me this question, I've got this problem and I'm like how do I solve that? And then I just if you get excited about it, then that's sometimes where I feel like the good creation comes from. Cause then you've got the energy if that means that I generally won't do things at night, cause my brain switches off, but like last night I just, it was just churning. So I needed to get it out. And that's how I do it. I guess I don't fixate on, I have to do a design project here. You can't force things you can't force. I don't think that you can pick yourself up to the outcomes. Probably just as good as much passion as you have going into it. Cause if you're forcing it, it's like obvious. I feel and then you just, I think that's really great that you have that self awareness around not just tasks that don't light you up, but where you can say, okay, these are my skills that I can lean into. These are my strengths and anything that's a weakness, like rather than working on that, put, pour more into your strengths and get someone to pick up the weakness spots because that's their strength. And then you're working on maximum strength across the team. Like it, it makes no sense to force yourself into booking your flights all the time. If you could easily be like, I'll send you. The details of the destination and the dates and over to you. And then I don't have to worry that I've double booked two one ways on a totally different week. Yeah. And I look, I think we're taught when we're younger that we need to get good at the things we're not good at. And I think as we grow often, we can grow into no, I just need to work out a way to work in my happy place and have people, Around me. I spent a lot of last year, actually, you go through those stages. You look at someone I might look at you and I'm like, Oh, yeah. And she's seen it. She's working. She's got complete control. She's doing. Like we both teach, we're both online course creators. We're both educators. But you've got a team of one. Yeah. And the dog she's asleep. You can probably hear it snoring. She's very lazy and can't book flights and you're getting all this stuff done. And I'm like, Oh if I just cut back the team, maybe I could do. And there were a few natural changes anyway, like one of my team members have been with me for four years was moving into, wanted to move into a different field and then was moving into the country. I'm like, so I'm like, Oh, what if I just pull it all back? And I just focus on the, what I really need to do. Yeah. And simplify everything. But the thing is, I'm not good at simple. Crazy messes. Then you'd be running my dream business, not your dream business you would be running. I have that level of team because I've only just had my second child go to school. I still have a two year old. I don't have time to run the level of business that you like in terms of our teams and I guess community and things. I feel as though they're very different looking businesses. And if you simplify it all the way back, you also have to keep not keep it at a level, but you also have to operate at a level that one person can handle. Like you can't have. Particular levels of growth without growing your hours that you can work or your team or your commitment. Yeah, but I don't want to work more. No. And I can't because I work within the school hours and I've recently got an event space in a studio next to the school, but I've moved to the country because for our family, we wanted to try living in Patton Hill on 20 acres and coming home to the cows. Which by the way, I love and they love me by the way, it's my secret fear. I'm afraid of cows and I didn't know. And I grew up right near pan hell. And then I would go to friends houses who had cows and burst into tears because they're bigger than I thought. I'm only tiny. They're big. You just need super friendly ones that I can't forget you over at my boys are really beautiful. Anyway, like we wanted to try doing that. So you can't have. So for me, it's either say no, and I do say no to a lot of things. Like I don't do design for people's houses. If you live in this house, I am not going to do your interior design. It's not my game. I do interior design for developers. Yeah. Developments and people like, I want it to be fun and creative, but I also want to know that I'm going to have a couple of revisions that we've got a level of. emotional connection that's appropriate for the project. And I don't have to reiterate, look at someone's wallpaper 15 times, like that's just not my game. So I'll set it up like that. But for me to do fun things, I need a big team. Yeah. And so the team allows me to work less. Yeah, for sure. And also you say fun things, but it's so true when you're able to bounce off other people and think about what a collaboration opportunity is, where should BuildHer be? Where can we go? What are our dreams and ideas? Eight brains, nine brains is so much better than one brain who's, whether, Any doubt creeps in or thoughts creep in, it's untapped when you've got a bunch of people who are all working for the same outcome. It's sky's the limit, send the pitch, see if they'll get involved. Let's just try it. Let's just do it. You've got, I feel like I would be easily led into almost team frenzy if I had more than one person in here where I'd be like, cool, let's do it. Just give it a go. Let's do it. What's the worst that can happen? Pull it together. There's a team of us together. We'll all try it out. Whereas I think sometimes solo entrepreneurs or solopreneurs, whatever you want to call it, can be their own enemies. Sometimes when it comes to taking those larger risks and maybe. Throwing it out there or pursuing something because they can get in their own brains because it's just them and them talking things through. And I think team can be really supportive to pull you into that direction. I started this business. So I had a, when I quit that business, I had a fundraising business. So I helped schools. I don't know. I like business. Anyway, it's like the chocolate cart, but it was a healthy alternative, growing back herbs and veggies and stuff, weird stuff. Anyway, I sold that and I was dropping the kids to school and my husband's a builder and someone I'm a registered builder actually, but someone said to me, Oh, so your husband's a builder. So you did the books. And I was like, and I'd like the, and this is where I'm trying to not Get ego. It's completely ego because that's fine. That's actually really a very valid, like it's a great way to live. Perfect. But for me, I was like, sorry, I don't know whether you're allowed to swear. You can that dropped out anyway. So everyone's going to have to imagine what swear word you just and like the, so for the first year that You know, I created this, I actually created it with someone, but she was working full time. So I created it, myself in the office as I was running projects and it was nice to have the bounce of someone, but realistically like that kind of do everything, but you don't have mouths to feed if you're doing it yourself. Every dollar is different. It's a different way of building a business. When you grow, you've got to maintain a systemized level of understanding that you've got You know, a larger team, you've got to know what your overheads are and that you need to pull in X amount. And anytime, like I'm pretty open, but anytime that I tell people, like it needs to be this for us to keep going, just to break even people like, where did that come from? And I'm like that's what being a bigger team is. And so if you want to have that fun and you want to do events and pull people together, like that's a bigger team in a different style of business to a kind of. The other one, but both have challenge it's such a different level of responsibility and accountability too, because you feel a responsibility to what goes under their Christmas trees and what, how they are supporting their family. It's a big deal to have a team. I think people sometimes think, yeah, it's going to be really exciting and I'll get this and I'll get that. But. Yeah, when things, when big shifts happen in the world like COVID and you have to tell them that you're letting them all go and it's not, it's out of your hands. There is a responsibility that, late 20 year old you has already visited with general management, but I think we forget sometimes when you are running a small business, you're like, I'm just going to build. A little team, one or two, three, but it's a whole different ballgame, isn't it? Like it's a whole different level of showing up every day. I'm accountable to myself. If there's a reason that I just feel flat, I know I'll feel better tomorrow. Or I owe myself a whole bunch of time. Cause I know I worked really hard on the weekend this weekend, which I shouldn't have done. I could just do all of that stuff. It's pretty flexible. I don't have to message out people and say, I'm not coming into the studio and you need to get on with this. And it's just so different. And then if you're leading how you show up, it's how everyone shows up. Correct. So if I show up with a, Oh, I'm really tired and I'm half an hour late and I'm like, I'm worried about the, so that's not going really well. If you're the leader and you're like that, if you're, if it's your business and you show up like that, Like, how can you expect anyone else to invest? That's a lot of pressure too. Yeah. So you can't necessarily, you're like, Oh, I'll have a team and then I'll be able to share the downs and the ups. And I'm like you can't necessarily share the heart. You share the ups and you can share the wins and you can share what you're collectively doing as a team. But there's a level that you need to be careful about. Everyone's taking. They're massively trusting. Yeah. They don't want to know about your 4am freak outs about bottom line stuff and something you've just discovered in the P and L like they don't need that in their life. Cause that makes them feel like tomorrow the door might have a padlock on it. And it's actually not that bad, but we go through these ebb and flows of reactions as business owners. That we can feel quite stressed about things that everything is workoutable, but in that moment, if you are sharing that with your team, that would be a very uncertain time for them. Christmas is naturally a lower point for us. So we normally do a really good Christmas offer, right? And we do it between Christmas and New Year's and It's pretty predictable. We normally do it, but this year the market was different and this year it went flat. So what that meant for me was that I didn't have that cash buffer that I would normally have. And then January is normally pretty low because who's not the game. Like we're on holidays, guys, leave us alone. Yeah. We had a, then a deficit, we set up a new office. And studio and workspace in January, just to have fun. And so we had a deficit of 54, 000. There you go. There's some numbers for you. And as a business owner, I'm watching that going, that's okay. I can do that. I've put buffers, but that doesn't leave me. Much if I keep doing that, then I'm in trouble. But I've made the decision to set up an office and I've made the decision to, to do all these things with kind of the faith that you'll run forward and be able to create something bigger and better. And as we know, in our own businesses, small or big, sometimes things work well. Sometimes they fall flat. And there's no crystal or magic to it. It's sometimes they do well, sometimes they don't, and you've got to keep going. I think I've made, like I've done. Normally I will pitch a course if I'm doing a course. Normally I will pitch a course before I make it. Until I'd done that three times. I'm like, I've got this, I know what I'm pitching. I know how it is. I'm going to make it. It'll be less stressful. I'll feel less. I'll get a better course outcome. And of course I did all of that work and pitched it and worse than no one bought one person. So hard without validation. Like I've run, I've only got the one course. And when I wrote it, I knew from the learnings and everything that we would go out to market, validate. Get sales, then write it. But my husband is a school teacher and my children are very little. And the only time I had to write it was on that summer holiday break. If I wanted to have three months to write it, it had to be then, but that was also the launch time, right? So it was it was the launch time. I had to put into December, January for the first launch, which as you just mentioned, it's not a great time to be saying like, everyone follow me, trust me with this, I am actually building an amazing cause, but it all cascaded into each other. And I was like, do you know what? I'm going to do it because it's my only opportunity to do it. Cause again, I just have to ride with what the circumstances are at the moment. And then I'm going to take the learnings from it, because in my mind, if I was going to launch it, it was going to be 12 months of commitment and relaunches and learnings before I let it go in the trash can, I'm sure that there's a market for it, but it's a huge risk, just as you say, because sometimes you are go, you do the writing, you do the thing, you put it out there and you're like, I'm going to now they will come and they don't always come. They just don't, it's not always what they're looking for. Yeah. This film is a slightly different market, but it was something that people had asked me about. They wanted to know about branding for builders and building. And so previously, so my courses are like design, like a design. So it's if you want to do design at home be your own home or build like a builder. So renovate and build your own home or developer, which is probably our. Wasn't the one I started out wanting to do, but it's certainly the largest community and probably what I find most exciting because people are making big decisions on their lives and changing things. But I didn't want to be one of those, get rich quick. think people are there for the help and advice because it's such a blind spot. Like people want to do it. Australia of everywhere I've been in the world is the most obsessed with renovation and real estate and like the entire culture is that we're aware of it, but I think there's a lot of questions there where it's I'd love to do that. I know nothing about it. And I think that's the beauty of what you do with developer is being able to say, Hey, there's a safe space to ask questions. You're not going to look dumb. Like we're all here to just, We've got someone here who can field some of these questions and even break down, what is a joint venture project? What does it actually mean when we're spouting this terminology? And I really think that's the magic spot for that particular program is that so many people, I talked to lots of interior designers, obviously, and they all feel like developing for profit should be a no brainer for an interior designer. Like everyone I speak to is that truth or myth that we better or worse at it because when I think about it, I'm like, I'm not actually sure that you are the best fit person for doing that sort of risk management and project management. And I feel like an interior designer will justify a higher quality finish when it's actually not necessary and. Feed into the budget a little bit. Am I wrong? Or what are your thoughts on that? Maybe. It's a skillset, right? And again, it's, there are so many different ways to do it. And I'm probably really anti one size fits all. So I'm very much either all your different pathways, you can use an interior designer and architect, like this is what it is, but it needs to be in with your values and your fit. So I love interior designers working in renovation for profit. It's great because they can showcase what they're doing. It's great because they naturally have the time and inclination to understand the process and what's happening. And. If they can get their head around ROI, so your return on your investment and what product fit you're using as a designer who can visualize, you can really bring things to life. So renovating for profit for me, like I'm thinking about the end image, which an interior designer will often turn. And this is sometimes when you're doing someone's house and I know you're not meant to, but sometimes when I see a setup and so they've got a designer in, they're doing their house, I'm like, I know the image that person's going for. Because I know the love and attention and detail that put into that straight image into the kitchen and how that set up is working is. Is built for that, right? So as a designer, you've got the advantage to be able to craft that feeling and emotion and you understand how to use volume and how to use, so I would always use a draftsperson or an architect, more commonly an architect in my level of builds to do the space. And then I'll do the interior design, but it's about being able to use Great materials in simple processes and have them shine. And so career designers know that they know that you can use a limestone for 250 bucks a square meter, not Calcaba or whatever, Viola, whatever's for 1, 500 a square meter. And you're not going to get value out of that top one, or you might in a specific location, but you can balance that a lot better if you're a good designer, I think. Do we know projects where you are renovating for profit makes you a better designer for clients because you're so connected to those budgets and those movements that you learn the pain, or the adjustments that your client's going through. And then you can wholeheartedly say, yeah, okay. This isn't that 1, 500 a square meter stone, but it's 500 and it's going to look amazing. If you put two products next to each other and you say, this one's more expensive and more beautiful. Would you like the cheaper one? You're pushing people to this more expensive, more beautiful one each time you're making them feel like they're compromising all the time. Whereas if you do it another way. And you're making those value based decisions. You're saying, look, we've gone a little bit higher end in the kitchen. We're going to drop it back for the kids room. Back over here. Yeah. And then you can start to communicate better. So I think it is a really good fit, but I agree. What I hate is that people will come at things without feasibilities. And, Everyone thinks to themselves, you don't want to do that, would they? Bullshit, they always do it. Or they'll go back of envelope, they'll go, Oh, I'll buy for this and I'll sell for this and I'll have this in my mind. And the risk management is on an envelope, like the whole thing is being considered for eight minutes of the project instead of with council, with other people with skills and eyes on things that maybe you don't and having time and putting proper, attention and intention into the beginning is so important. It doesn't need to be that complicated, but it does need a bit more check and balance. We've got a super simple like spreadsheet that you can use and it just makes you, I use it, it's like a checklist, right? Because it's all laid out, you can go, I don't need an arborist. Great. I don't know. Oh, stamp duty. I did need stamp duty. No doubt. Oh, I did need to borrow money. What's the cost of that money? Like it just, it makes you do it in the same way as you're teaching people processes and stuff, and they can follow it and make sure they've got everything clear. It just allows you just that one tiny step to in and then the rest of it's nuanced. It's always going to be nuanced. In terms of where you, these are just random questions I have now that my mind is racing, but in terms of where you source I guess your projects from, or finding a property, is there a particular process that you go through that allows you to know that's going to be beneficial as the baseline before you actually get in there and renovate? Yeah, you're going to want to look at the gap in the market, right? So the first thing you need to see is what is this now and what could it be? And if that gap is pretty small and it tightened up a lot during, like there were phases in that, like the property cycle moves so quick, like right now, unrenovated houses they're sitting on the market. People are afraid to renovate. It's like the best time. Anyway, it doesn't matter, but they're low, but finished houses are sitting higher. They finished higher. They're sitting higher because people are like, I don't want to renovate. It's really scary. The cost of renovation has gone up, but then so has all the inclusions that we've put in there. And so your job is to make a balance there. Do you need to put 15 different types of. hinges in there, like bins and tricks in the kitchen, or do you need to put pocket doors there? Or can you design a solution around that? So now it's a good market for that, but you're basically looking at before and after and looking for a gap. It needs to work on the back of an envelope. If it doesn't work on the back of an envelope or on a quick spreadsheet, like what I said, don't bother. But if it works like that, then you can start together, but there's no set solution to this. So I think in the last 10 years, like actually you can make massive project progress in a short amount of time before a winery project. I bought a 5. 5 million piece of land as a joint venture with no money down, which will carve up into a three developments. Now, I wouldn't have thought I'd be doing that, but I am and I freaking love it. It's amazing. I've bought. I've got a small renovation. A very little renovation. I've got a knockdown rebuild on the go. I've got townhouses, which isn't normally my jam and probably, I don't love as much as other projects, but. It's good to do some things. I've got a joint venture of people that wanted to do that type of thing and learn that process. So that's it. I've got a subdivision or a dual lock subdivision that was three villa units. That's gone into two. I could not, I was much as I was trying to make it stack up. I had three separate titles. I'm like three titles, three houses, come on. Numbers didn't work. They work as two realigned proper houses, larger properties, right? And so it's different. It doesn't matter. What it is. It's about what you want to do, what you're passionate about and what time and finance, yeah, it's good to dream, but sometimes it's you also have to be getting in there and taking that first step. Cause I imagine it's a bit like a. Folder, like once you're able to do one, you can start to fund the next one. You can start to go a bit bigger and, you can you can't go anywhere if you don't take the first step, but certainly your first one is not going to probably be a 5 million joint venture. Usually, I don't know, maybe that type is probably interesting. A lot of people get. They're like, I can't borrow because we work for ourselves, or maybe our incomes are lower, or maybe we've changed the, like we're creative with the way things look or we want more time with our kids. So we just don't work that, borrowing capacity can be one that, actually, if you do development finance, they're not looking at serviceability. Yeah. There's lots of different ways to do creative ways to ask justice as creative ways to present. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So funding and finance, I feel like more. There's pathways for everyone. That's whether you're willing to put the effort in. You talked about joint ventures. What's how do you go about finding suitable partnerships for a joint venture? As in investors? Yeah. Like how do you in terms of the every person's process, is that something that you think is accessible to everyone or it's a level you get to later or what are your thoughts? You can, like my first joint venture was with my sister. Like I'd never done projects before. Like I worked in building, but I'd never done a renovation before. Domestic is so different, commercial. So we find a friend. Yeah. And then I couldn't do it by myself. We were two, single girls that didn't, in our twenties, it didn't really know what we're doing. And that's, that was my first joint venture. It's together we could fund it and separately we couldn't. Yeah. The one thing I'd say is if you're an interior designer or which is probably most of your listenership, right? So if you're an interior designer and you've got skills and you're interested in it, know your numbers, know how you want it to look or know what it could look like, but don't go out and ask people flat out. What I would say is I'd be speaking to you and you'd go, Oh, what have you got going on? Or how are you going? And instead of going, Oh yeah, busy. Frickin hide busy. Oh. Yeah, I'm really excited. I'm looking at a joint venture project at the moment. Know, we are trying to get a project off the ground. It's we're looking at doing a renovation on this house. It's pretty exciting. If you are actually interested in that, you'll say, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more. And if you're not, you'll go, cool. So my kids went to the pool last week. Yeah. Oh, that's nice for you. And then look the other way, Right. And so never try and pitch to people. Yeah. If they wanna know, they'll know. If not such good advice for life and business in general just share what you're doing, share what you love, try to help people. The rest will just come to you. Like the idea that you're constantly out there, like the inflatable wavy man on the side of the road. It's like gross, isn't it? It's a bit ick. I wanted to have a chat about, women on the tools, women in trade. You mentioned before, just like the conversation around, oh, so you must do the books and your husband must do the building. Have you seen a big change in that? I feel as though the philosophy of BuildHer is obviously empowering women to not settle for. I think it's really important for women to be able to go write the books and to actually be like, do you know, if you want to do it, you're completely capable, there's nothing stopping you say, come along and let's get going. Do you feel like that's shifting shifted better, similar, what are your sort of thoughts on. I think the industry is fine as a woman. Really? I've had a few run ins with people, but whatever, like you're going to get points of difference over regardless of gender that's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. So I think. It hasn't bothered me and I know I'm fortunate in that way or maybe I don't read it or I'm just sitting in a place where I'm asking or creating what I want. What I would say is in terms of people on the tools, sometimes I have people come to me and they're like, I want a house built by A woman builder. And there are a few of us that are registered builders. Now, am I standing up frames? Look, I have, John took my, you don't actually get a gun license, but John took my gun license from me when I almost shot off my toe. I'm like, Oh, I just don't have I'm just, it's not my skill. Yeah. I can tell you how it'll go together. I've been on site. I've done a lot of the jobs, but I'm not, That's not my job as a builder, I'm setting things up. So we have female trades, but if you're asking for solely female trades, my question to you is how much more do you want to pay? And why what, I would also be questioning almost that, is it like, it's still a gender bias and it's. I just don't really understand what the difference, if you're trying to bridge a gap where there is no difference, then why are you calling out a big difference? Yeah. I think there's a natural inclination for more men to want to be on a building site than women, not so much in the professional capacity, but certainly in the tools. And so I think that's part of the reason why, to be honest, I think we probably need more trades. Around anyway, regardless of, but there's certainly some trailblazers that are doing really great things for the industry and showing that they can show up and do it equally as well as men. But I look, it's not really common to see a woman trade. I've seen caulking. Some trades are less, I haven't seen a female concreter. You know what concreting's a pretty rough, it's pretty rough on your body. It's not that it's a rough trade or the people I use are rough or the concreters are. It's it's hard on your body. The physicality is just not appealing, is it like sometimes like even, and I know it sounds really fickle and silly compared to that, but I'm like, property staging is not for me. I'd have to unpack the truck. And I don't want to do that. So you know sometimes that I'm not that person. That's not my jam. I love. Styling my own house. I love getting pieces. I like moving them around, but I'm not doing it for a job. But then I'm also not going to be a real estate agent. I'm just not going to be. Because the hours they work are insane. And so I think you've just got to pick your line and go with it. Agree. And I'm grateful that mine doesn't involve unpacking the truck or doing too much physical work. But I do think to your point, like DIYs, women developing for profit, women getting involved in projects, women getting away from sitting in the office and, or staying out of the way. Is completely shifting. And I do think, what you do to empower women to know that it's okay, that they can ask the questions and then they can actually get the knowledge to, to move to that next step is incredible. Cause I think before BuildHer, there just wasn't really someone saying, girls can do this too, right? Painting's not hard. Like I was ripping up vinyl. I renovated the office over the weekend or the studio here. And one of the jobs I needed to do was rip up the vinyl, which was disgusting. But the guy had been here all weekend and he'd done two runs. I'm like, I'm just going to get in there. Let me help you. Let me help you. And then within probably 45 minutes, we'd done the third run. There were only three runs. And so As it turns out, I'm getting older, but there's nothing to stop you from getting in and doing it. You've just got to do it well, but that's the same of anything. Yeah. DIY is fantastic. It's just, whether you've got the time to do that or you want to move on to the next project, like where's your skill and what are you doing? Yeah. I also and I don't know how you feel about this, but I am in and around, I don't really use Facebook at all, but I am mildly in and around groups that discuss a lot of things like renovations and DIYs and home improvement. And obviously I must have gone on some mad rampage when I first started my business to like, follow everything that could be home decor or home like And because I don't really use Facebook, I haven't probably cleaned that up properly, but I do see a lot of stuff and you see a lot of. I guess wild advice out there, like someone will post something and then like a swarm of people will jump in to give them pseudo professional advice on what they should do, tear down that wall and move that over there. And it can be quite overwhelming as someone who knows that they should not be doing that. Do you do you see much of that, just in groups? Chats or is everybody like really respectful of the idea as they probably should be. Let's leave that to the professional people and we get involved where we can do that. Yeah, I stay away from that. Forums. I think the other forums, which I tend to try and stay away from are, when someone's just had their house done and they move into it and then they start having a crack at the builder. Yeah. And all the post-it notes, it's just And I'm like, you need to, and like you'll, without fail, you need to sue him. You need to do this. Yeah. He shouldn't have blah. And I'm like hang on a minute. And tagging them immediately by their business name as well. While they slag off everything that's done before they picked up a phone and had a conversation and worked out a solution together. But also a lot of the stuff that they're calling out as defects under the Australian standards. It's like I had one where she had to look sideways, glancing up at a thing to scratch it. I'm like, Oh and she like, I'm like, that's not a defect. The reason why the, Standard is stand straight on a meter and a half away. Can you see it or not? Is because that is the way it should be done. And because you're using materials that aren't perfect. So whilst we all want amazing finishes, we also need to understand that we're building things with bits and pieces. And I cannot, a lot of the issues I see with builders, a lot of the issues come from client side or design side and a lot of the issue, so I, I think both people need to come to that party and both it's never in isolation. That's the way people come together. And it's managing expectations and communication. Cause I feel like that's where it always goes down. It's Oh I thought it was going to look like this. And but where did you get that idea? Cause no one ever told you that, that's just you walking around with an end vision that hasn't been shared with anyone on the project of what you thought it was going to be. And then you're disappointed because it doesn't look like this thing that was never communicated to anybody. People are not on the same page. It's also a lack of understanding that someone has been at that site for three weeks, physically building and pulling things together. And, like it's not always an easy job. And then if the first thing you do is walk in and criticize. You wouldn't do that to someone in your team in a professional job, but it's okay to do that to a builder on site or a trade on site. So we need to be a little bit mindful of how, even though we're taken aback because we haven't seen it, or, the common one is people will go, Oh, is that a mistake? Yeah. Or it's not finished yet and you're already having to go about it. And it's I'm too 20 percent into it and I'm sure you'll like it at the end because you asked for it. Yeah. So I think it's just understanding your your framework and look, I find that hard as well, because sometimes people do things on sites that I'm not like. Or not in the way or in the process, or sometimes they walk instead of running and I'd really love them to run. I think it's a good reminder for the interior designers listening though, because there's always been, and they can always be a little disconnect sometimes when we are working with trades, like how can we do things better? How can we communicate better with our trades? How can we do that? And being mindful of that. Exactly what you just explained is really important because I find I've seen some reels and memes lately of like builders sitting around having cups of tea or whatever and then the interior designer arrives and they all were like, oh, shit, get back on the tools and quickly do the thing. And I think it's really patronizing because it's no, they were working really hard. It's you don't run the project in that way. You don't care for the project any more than they care for the project. We are all here for the homeowner's outcome. And you need to build a team that has that mutual respect. Like I really didn't like, it left a bad taste in my mouth, seeing that real, because I was like I know it's supposed to just be funny, but it's like the interior designer's job is not to run the building company. And it's not to be in charge of the builder. We're working together for the homeowner's outcome. We are a team of trades. We are all equal just because your drawings come before their actuation and so on. Doesn't put you higher in rank. And also you need to ask the questions, right? Because sometimes you will design something, you'll put it on a piece of paper and it doesn't fucking work. Yeah. That's does not work. And the person who is going to save your bacon, my friend is going to be the builder on And by collaborating with them and working with them, you get these really great opportunity and outcome. Sometimes they have really great ideas. Sometimes their ideas suck. And vice versa, like we're not perfect. That's the thing, like remembering just because maybe you arrive on site cleaner than the bill. That doesn't do that's not anything there's no ranking there and I think the best designers that I know are really enamored with their trades in terms of they're really open to building a new relationship with every project and every trade on site and those projects in my mind always. Always come out so beautifully compared to the ones where they're trying to I don't know, pull rank, project manage. Like it's not your job to project manage the builder. It's just your job to work with them. You have access to the best resource. Cause if they can put it together and they know how to put it together, you can be there with them going, Hey, so if I want to do this and I'm always doing this, so devil's advocate, let's have a think. So I've got a pretty good comprehension of how things go together. But every time you're doing something new or different, it's really figuring out how it goes together or the best method. So by working together and going, I want to do this, but I can't. Like, how would I make that happen? That's really tricky. So is there a way that I could achieve, like the, the shelving units like behind me, which you probably can't see because you're online, but you shelving units, which is a bespoke thing. It's is there a way I can achieve this and pull this together? Like what would you do? Can I fold some steel up or, and to be able to use their mind is going to be, so either going to respect you and want to work with you more, but be like, you'll be able to come up with things. That other people can't, because if you get a creative, not all trades, but if you get one of those creative trades that loves nutting stuff out, hang on to them, they're going to be like giving you those random solutions that people like, how'd they get that done? You're like, yeah. I've got a good one. And also you're bringing double the project knowledge. They've worked on projects you haven't been involved in. And some of you, so you're actually like really doubling your exposure to what you've seen done before, what you've thought about before. Cause we're all wanting to find. Better and cooler ways to do things, them included, there's no way they're like, Oh, I just came here to make the three squares and the two triangles. It's a house. They absolutely want to be working on exciting projects so that their portfolio is growing. Their interest is held. Yeah, they don't want to just repeat things over and over. Yeah, it's a top tip. Sorry. Final one, just in terms of respect and building team, when you get your photos done, and we'll get photos of lots of houses, we put a list of everyone who was involved and we send them a little thank you with a link to the photos. That in its own right, because they don't get to see the photos, they don't get a copy of things that in its own right is so nice for them. A little, you have suppliers as well, like obviously that goes a long way with suppliers, but just your trades, like thanks guys, here's the images, loved working with you. Love to see you share it or, want to work with you again. And that's I don't know, never done, but always appreciated. Really beautiful way to sign off in an offboarding sense and validate their time and energies. And actually, yeah, as you say, like. Those before and afters, we're always in the messy middle with our builders, but it's never that they get the chance to be credited. The photographers credited the designer, the stylist that came in and did a bit of judging before the photos were taken. But it's you're only in that house because of one kind of reason. And it's really nice to call it out. I think that's great. I had a discussion with some of my students recently around the idea of interior designers wanting to partner with builders, go out as a marketing, how do I get in front of them? How do I let them know? How do I do things? And at the end of the day, it was such a tricky conversation because I was like, Oh, look, all the builders that I know are not. Always online or on emails, like some of the more traditional ways that you would reach out. I don't know about your tips, but we just got to like networking, meet some, know some, get in there, have a conversation, be, be in and around that world, whether that's trade shows or just getting in there and actually chatting. Most builders now, I think are looking for. It depends where you're working, but there's a level of builder that's looking for photos, that's looking at doing partnerships and work, but most builders are not building their own work. So if you want to be an interior designer, working with a builder that's working with a client, they need to be doing the drawings, the document. So it's actually a DNC builder that you're looking at. And often their biggest setups, like the guy down the road, that's going to build, like he's got plans come to him. So you probably want to do the interior design partnership with a drafts person that doesn't want to take that on. We've got designers we'll work with and we take on that part of it. We've got project managers that manage projects for clients and we'll take on that part of the job. I have had a few builders, but it's more the developers that are doing their own projects that want to level up. And then I would always show them. Your images, because there's designers and there's designers, unfortunately, if you don't have images, it's going to be very hard. Yeah. It's nice that you rocked up with a packet of doughnuts and a bit of talk, but yeah, you're exactly right in terms of. Perhaps make the work that you want to be working on, show, do an entire packet on a fake townhouse suite that you would have done in a certain way and take that around and show what you can do and what you want to do. Our design services packet as such is really clear on what they're going to get. It's clear in the process, it's clear in where it's at, but it gives you an example of what that looks like, the materials, the moods like. And then like my pitch to them is like I work with developers. I work with builders. I'm not working with end users. So I'm not using working with homeowners. So I'm saying to them, look, I understand value proposition. I understand where your shots are going to come from. I understand the use of a house. I can take that client through that process. And I can get you a better price at the end, so you don't have to worry about it's all scheduled, all documented. I'm going to give you each elevation, but I'm not going to charge you the world, but then you're not going to get 15 rounds of not doing it. Yeah. And that again, leads back into the early thing of the things that do not light us up. Iterations where they're not necessary are not always going to be included. So that language you might work with builders is my point. You're talking to them because there, there would be a level of builder. That is saying if I get an interior designer and they've all worked with an interior designer, that's been a PA pain in the ass. Yep. That bespoke everything. You are basically saying, I can make some things interesting and bespoke, but I'll give you a package which is easy to build and makes your life easier. Who are you pitching to and why are you pitching to them? And that's so good. So one of the other things that we got to was just. Putting ourselves in that mind and okay, when you've worked with builders, what's important to build is it's decisions. It's quick decisions and it's like guidance. It's not deliberation iteration. It's not nonsense. Like part of the language of being average is No one wants decision fatigue. He doesn't want to talk about options. She doesn't want to talk about options. People want to talk about solutions and then like next step, not bussing around too much. And I think that's one of the barriers is sometimes there's a perception that the designer is going to come in and what if it's a bit like this, or we could possibly do that. And, it's, and some women. Some will absolutely, but that's not who you are when you're working with the builder. Yeah. Love that. I'm going to leave it there because I know I've kept you over time and I've had such a delightful time and I've learned a lot and I'm excited now to go and get all the envelopes and look at all the real estate books and see what's possible. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. All right, chat to you soon. Bye for now.

1:00:32

Wasn't that so great? I feel like it's one of those conversations and one of those chats that I will go back and revisit and pause and take some notes from. I learned a lot in that chat and I also just saw things from different perspectives and was able to ask some questions that, as an eDesigner, I don't always get on site with new builds or, yeah, there's a lot of builds that I'm working on. Parts of my business that I learned from and with other frameworkers. There's also parts that I do, but I do them so rarely. They're like a handful of times in six years, et cetera. Things like developing and things I don't have a lot to do with. So I love to learn more about it. I. mentioned framework is just before, as I so often do because I'm obsessed with them and their businesses. And I'm not sorry about that. But I wanted to also mention that we are taking another intake into the framework at the end of the video. May at this stage. I think the dates are the 29th of May. I am also a guest panelist for Interior Design Institute on the 31st of May. So if you are currently studying at IDI, please come along to that panel chat. It's going to be very beneficial all around from study to studio really, isn't it? It's from student to working designer. And I'm really looking forward to that, as well as I have a really big event. cooking in the background. I'm going to finalize some things in the event space on Thursday, and then I will probably tell you more about it this weekend, I think, if not early next week. So please keep an eye on my socials. Yeah. And I think there is also another marketing workshop coming up. One, all the April ones sold out. So there is one on the 26th of May and the 19th of June from memory. I really should have written those dates down, but it's okay. If you ever want to know any of that stuff, just DM me the word workshop. You'll get an automatic flyer with the information about the workshop as well as upcoming dates. That is all there for you. I have really excited to be back at work after the school holidays. I love spending time with the kids, but after you do have that epic break and they spend a lot of time fighting, it's really nice to get back into my quiet office and get back to the things that I love doing as well. So I will chat to you next Tuesday in my solo episode. Until then, if you have any. spare moment that you could rate the podcast. Just give it a couple of star rating. I would really appreciate that. Even more so if you could write something kind that would encourage someone else to pick up or press play because it is a competitive area. By all means, listen to all the podcasts, but it's nice for me. I personally check the reviews before I start a new podcast. So every little kind word helps. And if you don't have time for any of that, if you could flick it across to a friend, share it spread the word, I would be so very grateful. All right. Thanks for having me in your ears. I'll chat to you next week. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.