Zephyr & Stone and the business conversations we need more of

Join us on the podcast as Ania from Zephyr and Stone delves into the entrepreneurial journey, discussing the organic evolution from a simple Instagram account to a thriving interior design business. With a deep passion for design, she shares how Zephyr and Stone began as a platform for sharing tips and insights, which naturally transitioned into a successful business. Discover the behind-the-scenes of creating digital products and the challenges of adapting to evolving online platforms. A must-listen for anyone interested in the real stories behind the polished images of interior design success.

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And visit the website https://www.zephyrandstone.com.au/shop/p/client-fee-proposal-template?itemId=client-fee-proposal-template

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Transcript

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Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. Before I get stuck into today's episode. I did want to mention that we are running a live event. It's actually the first live event that I've run because I come from a bit of an events management background and have been in all honesty, avoiding them like the plague. But I needed to get some headshots done. I did a lot of investigating a lot of price comparisons. A lot of thinking about how I could do it in a way that felt like we were just doing more. If I'm going to take the day off and I'm going to be. I dressed up and doing the do about the business. I just wanted to make it a bigger thing. And so I have crafted a day that includes a marketing workshop and unlimited filming of B roll and content in a high-end furniture showroom, M and co. Living. Ah, hosting our switch is going to be great. And includes lunch. It has everything that you could need. I'm not going to go too much into it except to say the tickets sold out 50% in pre-release and are now live. So that if that is something that interests you, the price points, including GST around 9 30, 4 ish, I think. So it's under a thousand dollars for the entire day and 20 high res images to take away after the fact. So it is such a no brainer. If you're located in Melbourne run, do not walk to my inbox over on Instagram at oleander underscore and underscore Finch. I do have some girls flying in from Brisbane and new south Wales because they did the price comparison and it's cheaper to book accommodation and flights as well. So that's saying something, isn't it. That day is going to be amazing. I'm really looking forward to it as I am also looking forward to today's conversation because I already had the interview, obviously, and I know what a belter it is. I'm speaking today to Anya from Zefren stone and I have followed her. For long before her business was a business and we've been Instagram friends for a long time. And I'm so thrilled that she joined me for a conversation. She is such a gorgeous person to chat to and brought so many productivity tips and aesthetic tips. If you've ever been on Pinterest or you've Googled kitchens or bathrooms, you are probably very familiar with the Zephyr and stone. Look. You're going to love this chat. I'm not going to hold you up any longer. I will speak to you at the end, but for now, here is Anya from Zephyr and stone. Hey, Anya. Thanks for joining me. Thank you. Pleasure. Really great to be here today. I've definitely followed the Zephyrinstone account since the beginning of my career. How long has the business been running for? I think it'd be close to 6 or 7 years now. Although it started basically just as an Instagram account. But yeah, maybe more of a business for 3 or 4 years, but, started out 6 or 7 years ago. I'll have to think back to the project we were doing when we started. It's interesting how Instagram has been a launching pad for so many businesses and it's something that, you do because you enjoy sharing and it can snowball like opportunities coming your way and more and more people picking up what you're putting down and really enjoying the content. And that's crazy to me how many businesses started like that. Absolutely. I've got a few friends that have done similar things, started off just talking about something randomly that they've enjoyed. And, or we're really passionate about and it's turned into a business. So yeah, it's really a great platform. And it just means, people who might have not had the opportunity to start a business, makes that really valuable. I love that idea. It's almost like when people are friends before their partners or, it's a way of doing things really organically that comes from a place of passion and what you love. And it's not manipulative or contrived. You don't sit down and say, where's the gap in the market with the most profit and how do we do this? I just love that. I think those stories are really lovely because it just means that you're actually going into something that you're already engaged with. Actually, Zeppelin Stone started very much like that because I think when I first started, when we first started sharing information and ideas. It was we actually looked around and went, Oh, this is what we're going to share. And then it pretty much, it was just going to be all styling and, pretty space. And it was like, that's actually not what I'm passionate about. Straight away I started doing the tips, the onsite, you know, what we were actually doing every day. And I think when you're sharing organically what you like, it becomes so natural and it's a lot easier because it's a big thing to, it's a to sustain, sharing information. So it's easy and organic and it's your niche, then that's a really that, that's where it works really well. And I think it's successful when it's when you don't really have to think about it almost. Yeah, and it's fun and you enjoy it and you're not, squeezing lemon from a stone, you actually feel like I want to show up and and all of those tips have always been, I've found them so helpful, even in my beginning of studying, I remember even getting, Perhaps a bathroom or a kitchen guide just to look at standard heights, like Australian standards, other things like to compound my own learnings. It was like, Oh, you guys have a digital product that I could go on. And it doesn't matter if you're a homeowner, you're a student who you are. It was quite helpful. Cause I was able to go in and go out that I imagine many like people who are not ready to invest or work with an interior designer have found that such a great resource to be able to go in and just get the basics. Yeah, and I think it's also because, in our resources, we share standard, but we also share out because I think our standard like zephyr and stone standards differently, just because. A shower is standard 900 by 900. We never do a 900 by 900 shower because it really is just a little bit too small. And our standard might be if we were doing a small square shower, a meter by a meter, a thousand by a thousand mil. So we share our standards, like this is how to make it a little bit more premium without making it huge. Just those, and that's what all those resources are, that we share standards, but then we share, You know that to get that interior design look to get that, slightly better finish and that nice finish where the space feels just that little bit bigger and more just feels great to live in. And I love that because it feels like probably something that every homeowner wouldn't think of. And they're very protective of the square space in the room thinking I can't steal from there. It's from where are we going to use your elbow up at the, Basically, you don't need that 10cm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the that's actually, that's the key to designing a room really well, because I might be going off track here a little bit, but make having, looking at a space and optimizing every part of it. This is your space for your shower. How do I optimize it without then, using up other precious spaces, another area. And when you get that balance right for the size of the room, that's when it's really successful. I love that the, a non designer can also access that asset and get some working understanding as to why. So sometimes you're just looking at a floor plan and you're like, okay, they've gone a meter by a meter, but why? And if you're actually able to explain, it gives you a higher end finish. It feels different in the space. You don't feel like it's a standardized 90 by 90. And then people are like, Oh, cool. Lightbulb moment. I get it. I know why I would actually do that. And that is now my preference to do that in the shower space rather than just follow the rules, which I love that way. Definitely. I wanted to know if you have any tips on building a really recognizable aesthetic, because I feel as though, be it Pinterest, Instagram, if I just saw a blog online, I would recognize a bathroom or a kitchen or, a space that you have designed just completely I think you build an aesthetic, everybody knows it, I see stuff and I'm like, ah, that's Zephyr and Stone. What are your tips to achieving that? To achieving what way design or your own aesthetic, do you mean just sticking to a single aesthetic? And is there benefits to it? Do you think, would you recommend doing that? I just feel as though new designers are like, it's not my job to put out an aesthetic. It's my job to fulfill client incoming inquiry. And so there's a bit of a discussion there about niching is one thing, but What is it like to have such a recognizable aesthetic? Is it advisable? I think it's, it's just an, it just naturally my aesthetic or, the aesthetic of Zephyr and Stone. And I feel like I describe it as like harmony in the space and balance, and that's what I always look at with colors and everything, that everything just feels right together. Even if you want to, and you want to have contrasts within that, but it just still feels harmonious and balanced. But think there's no right or wrong, if I look around at a lot of designers that you'd recognize, most of them do seem to have an aesthetic and it does make it easier because you attract the right clients. And I love designing something different and when a client comes in and wants something completely different and you can make any style beautiful, there's benefits and there's downsides because, a lot of people come and say, we just want that, and you want to create something different. That's the downside where sometimes you feel like, you're doing the same thing over again, but then you're always introducing different features. And so you might even be using similar colors, but, you've got, when we did a bathroom for a client recently, and it had like arches in the bathroom and all these, Beautiful features. So you can still make a room feel completely different by doing those, using a similar color scheme or your similar aesthetic, but Zeppelin stone aesthetic really. It was built over years of doing a lot of our own projects. And I did a lot of building and designing my own projects, duplexes, four and five pack townhouses, and a lot of those rent, rented a lot of those out for would know that we'd be renting them for 8 years or so. It I think that's, 15 years ago when I started doing that's really where my style, where it was really, it had to be neutral. It had to be like, I literally went, okay, what can I design that in eight years time is still gonna be on trend. And then I think that just became my aesthetic and everything I designed then going into those spaces. I feel like they still feel good eight or 10 years later and they feel good on the day. And, so you've got that longevity in design. And I feel like as designers, that's actually one of our. It's our responsibility to design something that we know is not, it's going to, it's going to last both for our client, because they're, they're investing in us and then also environmentally if, you might, if your tile lasts and it still looks amazing in 10 years, then that's a great investment, because that's just got longevity and no one's ripping it up and, building industry is obviously very, resource heavy. It's, there's a lot of waste. Yeah. It's like repeat clients are nice, but you do have to ask yourself questions if they're coming back every two years, like a good thing. Did you want them coming back? Cause they're doing another home and they've moved not because yeah. Yeah. They're waiting again. You mentioned the idea, you know that sometimes when you have a strong aesthetic, people will just point and say, can I get that? Is that the birthplace of the, some of the digital packs that you've created? To be able to guide people across to Hey, we have pre-made designs here, if that's all you're interested in was that idea born of that, or did you see a gap in market? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Because our business started off, not really being a business, but, Zephyr and Stone started as just sharing information, sharing ideas and tips. There was no business. There was no business behind it. That's really only grown in the last three or four years and it's still, changing and quite a bit. But yeah, we were just being asked the same questions over and over again. And we literally couldn't sustain you'd have to sit there. And so we built these packs thinking they're still affordable. In terms of things. Pre made designs. Do you come up against any challenges the way the light falls in a home? I do address all of that in those packets for them to say, Hey, this is a working design that looks beautiful where it has been executed. But give them a bit of guidance and tips as to how to take a bit of control and they may need to make alternative decisions if it doesn't work. Yeah, a little bit, possibly not enough, but yeah, we do mention obviously, cause as any designer knows. Shadows natural light completely changes and affects the color. It's even like the same room with the skylight and a window on the wall. It's traditional window. The colors will look completely different because you've got, a lighter or, very different light and, whether it's West North facing. Yeah, I think obviously that does make a huge impact. And I think that's something we try and educate just to try and educate all the time about, if you're planning, whether you're a designer or whether you're, a renovator and you're planning all your colors and finishes to really have, look at those in different lights because it changes so much. And and sometimes when people. Feel like color isn't their thing and they can't make a decision, laying samples in light and looking at different times of the day. Sometimes there'll be a certain time of the day and you'll go, Oh, wait a minute. Actually. Now I know that this doesn't work. And I'm always like, put everything down and then slowly. It can be a process of elimination. If you're not sure which white, put three or three or four whites that you think will work down and just look at all different lights. And that can be a really good way to at different times of the day to, assess what really does work, you definitely need natural light to see whether a color's going to work, but then it does depend on the space you want to see. If it's a darker space, you want to see how it'll look at that time of night and with artificial light as well. I always feel like I sound crazy when I tell my clients like drag it into the wardrobe and turn the light on and look at it in like really bizarre places like that carpet sample to the very end near the garage door of the hallway where there's no light and make sure you still like it up there cause it's not just in the center of the lounge room that, go over to the TV unit, keep dragging it around and then it's really robust. Yeah. Look at me strangely, but I'm like, it's a huge investment and I promise you there'll be a patch over near that TV unit that you will hate forever if you don't get it right. And it's really important to put it next to your furniture as well. If, that's one thing that often gets missed, I think at the beginning of a design, because I play in every room around furniture, like even when I'm designing a floor plan, cause I do all my own floor plans, for all the projects that we sell, I've designed the floor plans as well. I think you want to, when you design a room around furniture, it's so successful because where the couch is going to be and you consider that you don't finish and go, Oh, wait a minute. The TV is going to be in a corner, how many houses do you go and you go they're thinking, but it's actually, it's just an oversight, but if you plan around furniture with the color, as you were saying, grab the carpet, you've got this. So cat sofa, that's pretty new, or, you definitely keep it, put it next to it. Doesn't match because. You might need to revise your whole color scheme, because if that's definitely staying, you want them to all work together. I think that's great. And I absolutely agree. There are so many homes where I'm like, what was going on here? There isn't actually a feasible place to put this sofa or, or everyone's. Depending on who's doing the design, if they're not really comfortable with layouts and other things, then it just becomes very boxy, like sofa against walls, TV opposite, like two miles away, all that kind of stuff where it can bring up some challenges from a designer's eye to be like, ah, I'm really working. Working against it here yeah, but yeah, and then, I think it's a better service for a client as well. If you can do that, because, and, just drawing in the right size furniture for yourself as well. You can visualize the space better and I think it's really vital to pick up on any. Issues or any alarm bells, when you're planning, the design in the early stages, because if something doesn't fit where the client says, and how many times I've gone into a part, taken on an interior design job, the floor plans all finished. It's also, they're ready to go and they're like, yeah, we're going to have these fast doors here. And we're like, which you just don't have the room so it's really important, I think, to do that right at the beginning, Drop in just the right size furniture in every space and make sure it all works for your client. Yeah, I think it's key to the success of the space because obviously that's then the feeling and the space and the flow. Yeah, it's a good one, isn't it? I honestly just can't believe how often it is missed where people haven't even just tried a rectangle versus a round table just to see what's the workspace going to be like and people work a lot from the boxes of the empty rooms. I'm all about putting those shapes on there and making sure that people are going to, when the client entertains and has a family of 11, there's no point just working around a design of a. Like an apartment sized round table with four chairs. Yeah, and ideally, look, ideally that's as a designer, you don't always get that opportunity. So then you just look at the space and obviously go what size table work best and accommodate the way your client lives and or wants to leave. I think it's always important to it's not just how they live. It's what their intention is for the space because. I think you want it. I always feel you've got a design for how you want to live because if you go, I want to, I want this beautiful, intimate dining space and then it's stuck in the middle of a room. There's no pendants or anything and it doesn't get separated. It's never going to be intimate like a dining space for it to be intimate. Needs to feel like a zone and needs to, and you can do that in a big space by adding, pendant lights and things like that. And maybe a rug or, upholstered chairs. But I think you really want to make sure for your client, what's their intentions to whether they want to entertain, do they want an entertaining, an end of their island bench that's for entertaining. And that comes into furnishings and things like that, which we've got a bit off track as we were talking about rug colors. It's always the way I am. Was just going to mention, being around sort of six years or so on Insta three or four in business. One thing that I picked up that Zephyr and Stone have done so well since the beginning is not put all of your eggs in the Instagram basket. So I have noticed that you collect email addresses with lead magnets. You have a really great system for Hey, here's a free guide to this and in exchange for email addresses. So I'm imagining then email marketing is something on your radar. Blogs and Pinterest have been on the radar since the beginning. Where did that sort of marketing knowledge come from? And I guess I'm reflecting that I speak to a lot of designers who are like doubled down on Instagram as the be all and end all and have to do that. And Instagram is definitely changing and we can talk about that. But where did that come from? How did you know that you needed to spread across all of those areas? I don't know if I knew I think it's been, it's a moving target as well, because, now, TikTok's a big thing and, we're not really, we do TikTok, but not a lot because we're concentrating on other parts of the business at the moment. But I think I do listen to a lot of podcasts business and, and marketing podcasts. I can't even think of the names off the top of my head, but I do listen to a lot of, so a lot of those things I've learned, I think in the beginning of the business, I used to go for a walk every single morning and listen to an episode of a podcast and I'd just learn and I'd learn and I'd just have a million notes in my phone. So I think, we did realize quite quickly that it was important to. Yeah, and it wasn't even it wasn't even a mark. It wasn't a marketing thing at the time. Really. We weren't thinking, oh, we need to market. It was more like, this is where we need to be if we're going to. Be the full package and provide the value that, we're trying to provide. Because it is something, I think if you speak to anyone who has a successful business they're passionate about it, they live and breathe it, they would do it for free. They love it. And that's what I've always been like with Zephyr and Stone. So I think it was more, that's what it was about. It's we should be on Pinterest. We should be here. So we just did those things and we just kept. Learning and I'm all about learning and I'm learning at the moment. I'm actually doing. With the entourage it's the elevate program, which is like entrepreneurship, but also very much business learning, learning how to really run a business because I didn't have the business skills when I started Zephyr and Stein. It's all happened quite accidentally. Now I'm taking a back step and looking at things and, making sure the communication's right and we're, on the right platforms in the right way. But yeah, definitely do have a mailing list where I'm Pinterest and we're actually built with, we've obviously got our resources for builders and designers and that's actually something that I'm growing at the moment because I've realized, there is a bit of a gap in the market and it's so important. In your business and you can save so much time by having those, I think using those resources ourselves. Made me realize how important they were and how much time you saved every day. But it's not just the stuff. I think one of my favorite products is our welcome pack. And I, when we released that and created our own welcome pack, I don't know, four or five years ago, I couldn't believe I hadn't had one before. These things that you don't even know are a thing. And then when you do them, you're like, Oh my gosh. Cause you save so much time and you look so professional. So there's so many little things, all these things, I think podcasts are a huge thing. There's so much free and amazing information out there. I think you want to be learning every day and I think you're a better business person and you're I feel I'm always better when I'm learning. Yeah, for sure. I just wrote my email for this week. Over the, I don't know, a couple of days ago or something. And I was writing about the time that I ripped my business apart and then put it back together again, because it took off way quicker than I had prepared for. And even though I had a history or a, a corporate background in business. The infrastructure for the business and the rules and the standard operating procedures were already written. So I was following those, not creating them for my BS. So I moved from the corporate world of that's okay. There's a HR. File for that somewhere. Or there's a thing here for that to all of the sudden waking up in the thick of my business two years in or three years in and thinking, I have a problem here because my business really took off and that's client facing and I've been doing the client work bespoke creating, I take a few email phrases here or there, but that is not how you run a business. Like I was drowning in that. And I spoke in there about, there were, I was tempted to take a mastermind, a very expensive mastermind, like five figures at least, but I was too embarrassed and like I had system shame that I wouldn't be able to keep up with the women in that mastermind because I would have to share. Like dirty backend mess of my business that I never actually sorted out at the start. So all these clients came in great. Look at me go, but I was really embarrassed because people would reach out and ask for my advice or ask for my help with stuff. And I'm like, I'm barely aware of how I do it. I don't actually know what is going on here. And so when I had my son two years ago, I was like, This is a massive opportunity now to sit and I wrote a master list of documentation that needed to happen in my business. And I was able to tick it off one by one, create the welcome pack template, create the, the, all the intentional documents that I needed. And I wrote the course that I have. For emerging designers during that exact time, because I was writing the process for myself and then duplicating it in a, it was a natural progression. Yeah. So it was like a, there's a learning version and then there's the doing version. And then it's if you need to do the doing, here's the learning. Cause it's but it is incredible to me when I look at that. And I just think, oh, gosh, now that we have AI and we have all these other things, I'm like, what a time to be in business. What a time to be alive. Now, I feel like there are a lot of people in the industry, not just our industry, but business and in general, there are a lot more courses. There's a lot more sharing. There's a lot more. You can connect with anyone. And then once they're your person, you can go to them and say, Hey, would you mentor me, would are you willing to do a one hour session, a skill session, can you show me something? Can I learn from you? I know lifelong learning is. Such an evidential skill of successful business owners. Like everyone's hungry. Show me more. I want to absorb all the information, podcasts, even at 2 AM. It's Oh, I just put on this business podcast because I'm 100%. And it's so interesting to me that, it's never too late to start and there's always someone that can help you and I look at it now and I'm like, I, maybe it was around and I just wasn't aware, but I really feel like 6 years ago. It was like the wild west. You just got to do it your own way. Get it done. Learn and then I just feel like I definitely remember hanging up little tiny baby clothes and listening to marketing podcasts and other podcasts and things. I didn't, I wasn't so lucky to go for a walk. It was more of tiny people. But, I feel as though there's such a great opportunity now because there are so many people willing to guide you and help you. And I think, but I think also there shouldn't be shame around it because we don't all do everything perfectly. It's like with design, people are so scared of making mistakes. I made so many mistakes in the early days, designing things. That's how you learn and the biggest things to ask questions. And now you probably make less mistakes than I did. Cause there was so little information around 20 years ago. Like I think. Even in your business, like you just start somewhere, just start something, just go, okay, make this a priority. I'm going to do this as a priority and obvious and often look at what's going to make the biggest impact for you. Is something like a welcome pack going to then free up? Because every, you send that, you get an inquiry, you've got a templated email and then you've got your welcome pack, you send, and then straight away, you can do that in a couple of minutes and you instantly reply to your client. And you look, and you do it very professionally because it's templated, you ask them all the questions that you need. They've got so much information. You're welcome back. So you think what, what's going to give them, what's going to win back time and what can I do? What was the first thing I do that's going to win back time and also make me look more professional, maybe land that job that I might have not landed, so you do one thing at a time and just learn I think I'm learning so much every day. I've there's so much, I feel like I've got, I think. If you're, obviously you and I might have very similar minds that we were always learning and trying, creating new things. And I think. I never feel like I'm I've made it in terms of knowing everything, I feel like I've got so much more to learn. It's also something that I see I have heard before the risk of oh, but what if I invest in that? And I already know it all. And for me personally, I'm like, if I Went and spent like 3, 000, 5, 000, and I knew everything. That would be the greatest validation for me. I'd be like, yeah, okay, wow. I'm, I needed, I'd be very happy to hear, because it is so unlikely that you will ever walk into a space and not learn a thing. That's probably more on you than on them, because there is always something to be learned from whatever you're doing. So I really refute that idea of Oh, but I think I'm going to know the majority of it. It's yeah, and that will be great validation that you're on the right track. You'll have access. I'm not and there's so many other benefits to it and connect with other people, they've done the same thing, but I think the biggest thing is, you may not like, I think, courses I've done in the past now I might know 70 or 80 percent of the content, but it's one little thing that you take away that it's like, Is trans like trans changes everything, it's actually not the 80%. It's just like you might, get, download, a bathroom planner. And there's one thing that you really would have done differently and you doing it. So you, the whole space is successful, so it's always a matter of, and I think if you've got an open mind and you're listening and you're trying to learn and you're trying to do better, I think you always. Get value out of everything, but it, I think also when you're in a learning mindset, when I'm learning and absorbing, I think I make better decisions and I think I'm we I don't know if it opens our minds in a different way and our minds work differently, but I always feel like. When I'm learning, I seem to do better in my business, make better decisions and work better. So my, it's a positive thing. I think it puts you in a positive mindset, which is a big thing. It's like education breeds creativity. Like it feels like it's exactly. When you're learning, you're more engaged in mind. Yeah, I think it is like it opens up a different pathway in your brain or neural pathways or something so that you get more space. Is there anything in business that you haven't tried that you've had circling in your entrepreneurial mind for a while or that is it coming up next for you or that you're really interested in? A podcast, I've considered doing a podcast cause I, I think I'm best off the cuff, talking. So it's been not on the agenda. It's something that I've you know, when you're thinking about something for a long time, you think about more and more, I don't know that I'll definitely do one, but it is in the back of my mind of potentially doing a podcast, it would be very different to everything that's out there. And I haven't quite. I think I probably have decided that I will do one at some stage, but I have to decide, you want to add value. You want to, you want it to fit in with everything else and go I go there for this and I go here for this because I know I listen to so many different podcasts. So I think, when I mentally find that niche and know what I'm doing, I think it'll possibly eventuate. And we're obviously, building, we're launching a new website, which is still getting tweaked and refined. And then obviously reviewing a lot of our products. A lot of Zephyr and Stone products are getting a huge overhaul and there's, courses on the radar and things like that. Never a dull moment. Exciting. Yeah. The podcast thing I put off for ages and I was really. Because I am exactly like you, I listened to so many, I didn't want to add to the cacophony of noise if it wasn't going to add huge value. So for me, I had to sit down for ages and be like, what did I need when I was studying? What did I need when I needed a kick up the butt around just being energized in this industry? That's why I made decisions like I did. Long form content and not 15 minute episodes, but like an hour, because I am a mom of young kids. It takes me, I get decision fatigue. I don't want to keep changing my podcasts because I can't think of, every 15 minutes I want to listen to a big chat. So I just made the thing that I like to listen to when I was coming through. And learning, I loved the interview episodes and many of them were with American designers. So I was like, you know what, I want to be speaking to lots more Australian. We have a great industry, wealth and talent. And I was like, so whenever I'm doing interviews, I've done a few with Americans and I would happily speak to anyone all over the world. I've not, it's not that I won't, but the majority are going to have that relevance inside of our own industry so that people can learn. I will be. Putting my hand up. Very happy to come if you have guests and chat to you. Fantastic. You mentioned their digital, like revamping a lot of the digital products and having a course myself. I know it's really important to be like refilming things change. I wrote my course just before AI came out and then it's Oh, I better add, guidance to designers around using AI and I have to. But you're constantly having to change and tweak those. When you first went into the digital product area or e commerce, did you struggle with the tech? Did you, like, how did you know how to host them and how to deliver them? And then, did you use Etsy? Did you get shop, Shopify or whatever? Made it up to be honest. Lot of things we did at the beginning of the business was very much just do it. Just, I learn a lot. I think that's why, I've always, I love being on site. I love learning and on site. And I always ask all the questions. I think I learn a lot, doing rather than, doing a course and reading and, sitting down. So I think, Literally created and, a lot of, and it was very easy in terms of the content for, all our products, because it's just basically. It's what we do every day. So it's not like you have to look up and go, what's the standard fight and we don't, what do we do or whatever it's we know what standard is whenever you standard, whereas you use this height for a bench top or whatever, because this works better and, and this is a range and if you're at this height, you should consider this and, and that's all in our products. So I think we created them ourselves and then we used programs that we already using InDesign. And I think now we use Canva a lot. We transitioning, we still use both. For work and products, but I think, yeah, it really did happen organically. And I think that, software is so easy to use these days. The newest software, it's so user friendly that if you're trying to create something, you're trying to, and even all the products that we, you know, all the templates that we sell and you've got your templates they're not hard to use anymore it's really It really is, I don't know, it developed quite organically and I think it's, it is easy if you're interested and you're, you want to get something, you want to get it right. It's not too hard. I'm very similar like that, where there's, if I could ask the question, the internet has an answer. I can get a YouTube, a nerd forum, as I call them, go to Reddit, find out what everyone's saying. And I don't always understand the forums as they. I'm reading terminology and technology, things that are way beyond me. But if you read enough of it, you pick up the gist of what they're saying and you give it a go. And I think that's a really great message. Just get in there. And also you do hire, like we do, we have used graphic designers in the past as well to, to create and work on products as well in our branding and so that's obviously been something we invested in as well. It's been a bit of both. It's been a bit of doing a lot myself and then, using graphic designers and things like that. So because you just don't have the time to do it all yourself. Tell me what part of business stresses you out the most because it's not always sunshine and rainbows. What part makes you twitchy or makes you, when I said that, what did you immediately think of? Never having enough time, I think. For me, the kind of person I am, I'm an ideas person, so I've always got way too many ideas. And not enough people to, cause I'd have 10 things on the go. I think, for me, I found processes, Bruce was saying that I didn't have in the business at all, we start up and still just create, still creating some process. We've got a lot more now. But I think, and it sounds silly, but it's sitting down and writing, this is how we do this. We do this, then we do this, then we do this, then we do this. So then, you have a, a clear outline, it creates efficiencies, but then also if you're then delegating even any part of the job to someone, you can say, you're doing this bit and this is what you do. It's so I think processes, has made things a lot easier, but to be honest, I love every day of the business. I, the ideas is hard because I've got so many ideas. I'm sometimes, all over the place in terms of trying to do too many things at once. And I've really got to pull back and go, no. Let's focus on this and, do one thing at a time. So I think, as advice, I'd be like, do not as I do, as I say, not as I do, but, try and focus on, different parts of your business. Like I was saying before if you're looking at what can I do to improve or, to think back, what's the goal, do I want to win back time or do I want to win more clients? And then, educate yourself or put processes or systems in place to, to create, to do that that goal. And I think sometimes. It's really valid to very, really vital to take a day off and work on your business because sometimes something will happen or, I go on holiday and then I'm like, Oh, everything didn't fall apart and I was gone for three days. So you, things don't fall apart. So sometimes you might just go and that one day might just. Do so much for yourself as a business. Whether it's educating yourself or, putting things in place or even tidying up or a process. I try and live by that a little bit. It's amazing what one day can do. I have a marketing workshop that sometimes when I have four or five designers at a time and then they always feedback. I didn't think I could afford the time. I didn't think I could do the thing, but once I did the thing, the re energization, if that's even a word of the next three months of my marketing was so worth giving like five hours or whatever. And I often will, because I have again, young children and don't get a break. I do quarterly planning in a hotel. So I take myself mommy time on my own to a hotel with my business planning stuff that I have, like my structured things that I need to get done. And it's just head down, work, take myself out for dinner, watch Netflix, have a spot, do whatever you want to do. You're in the hotel, work again. It sounds. Probably more lush than it is. It's a lot of work. Because I imagine if you get anything done, there's not a lot of that Netflix going on. No. And I also over justify the idea that I'm away from the kids and left them with my husband and that mom guilt comes in. So I worked till 7 AM. Sunrise, it feels like that I work really hard in that one day, but it is nice to go. It's. On my goals, my ambition, my business, what's next for Oleander and Finch collectively and not just always going, time on the business is the hour of marketing or whatever. That's actually not. That's just a piece of the day that needs to happen. That's not working on your business. That's still working in your business. And I think it's a misconception that people have when they say. I focused on finances on a Friday or I did some marketing or I did some stuff that's not working on the future of your business. It's still in the business. Yep. Do you think the interior design industry has evolved since you started? Is there any significant changes that you've observed or like excited about the future? Anything going on? I feel like you can do anything, which is great. I feel like there's no restrictions. And I think it's been like that for a little while, but I think, I don't, I feel like interior design is and I'm sure it is worldwide, but I see a lot more Australian design. I can really talk about that more, but I feel like it's this so much talent in Australia. I feel like we come up with beautiful designs and I feel but I think I'm saying that also because my style is very Very timeless and I feel like there's so much good, timeless design, beautiful even a lot of homes that are, that have used trends like arches, but they're doing them really well where you think even though arches are going to date, the way they've done that, they've just done a tiny little bit of it and it's done really well. So I think, I don't know if I'm answering the question, but I think it's really Australian design is, it's just, it's actually leading the world in a lot of ways. And there's a lot of other places that are doing the same, but I think we've really made our mark, but I don't know if I've actually answered that question very well. I went off tangent a little bit. I agree though. And I also think that our landscape and lifestyle. It informs a lot of that. So we are very blessed to have these, I speak to a lot of clients of mine in the U S and then they're always like, all they want is all that coastal staff and all the things that just doesn't really exist over there. That's not indicative of middle America. Like why are you going to be designing your house like that in the middle of Omaha? That does not make any sense. And so I think that there can be a little bit of I'm going to say cross pollination whatsoever. Like they're a little bit jealous of us. And then there are quite a few people in Australia who love a particular kind of US style as well. And I do definitely think the Australian designers are internationally recognized and noticed. So we get noticed the stuff that is being produced in this country is phenomenal. Yeah. Maybe it's that sort of indoor outdoor, living, but I feel like design, good design. It's not just about colors. Yes. The color, the colors are crucial. They have to all work all together, but it's actually the feeling you get in a space, those times you walk in and you just feel it's like calming. It's it's, you can't really bottle it, but, or, really describe it in a few words, but it's. It's that feeling when you look at a space and it's that harm, it's, it is harmony and balance when you feel that. And I think we're getting really good at doing that. I think we're just getting smarter because that's a big thing. We're just like, we've just got used to get educated, used to be educated and, do your course or do a degree, but now. We're seeing, we've got so much more information out there that we get to see different spaces. So I think our designs are just becoming so much better and, yeah, and but I think the indoor outdoor the way we design homes because of our environment definitely does help because it is very appealing. It does feel good to live in spaces that are connected to outdoors. I had a random thought, a random question recently I saw a thread of new designers talking about finishing their degree and not actually proceeding to do anything with that just around it's a saturated industry, whether that's comments from friends or family saying maybe don't or don't do this. What are your thoughts on that sort of ideology of. The idea that there's not space or that there's, so much going on already. I just, I was really disappointed to see it. And I thought, oh, that's a real shame. And I guess I just wanted to have a chat about, do you have any advice for people who are on the edge of should I, or shouldn't I? Cause they've done all this stuff. They've got the talent to do it. And then it seems to me that not all of them go forward and actually use that degree in any great capacity. I don't think there's a, I think it's just different for different per people, and depending on what experience you have. I know so many I'm not fully qualified. I've started twice and each time, the first time I got through most of my course and I didn't finish it, I had a 1-year-old and 2-year-old. I'm doing all of my own projects. And second time was when I started Zephyr Stone. I was like, no, I'm gonna do this. And everyone's like, why are you doing this? And I'm like, and it only took me really when we started doing interior design, I had my own interior designers that I went. Oh, you know what, actually, I feel like I don't need to have it because I've done it for so many years so long. I actually, I really truly do not need it now. But it's it's just and I think it's very clear like someone who it's that whole analogy where someone could be come out of a course. They've got no. On site or life experience, experience doing so you don't even know how everything fits together. So I think I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I know some of the, I know some top interior designers in Australia who, when I found out they weren't qualified, I was like, are you for real? You've got the biggest firm I know. And you're not qualified. I couldn't believe it. And it's just that made me go. Okay. But then they've been in the industry for 20. so they've been doing it. So if you haven't had the experience, then that can fill those gaps. I think you want to fill gaps one way or another. So I don't think, I think it just depends on how much time you've got, whether you can I think you look, if as long as you're learning, whether you're learning through a course, or you're learning through information online, or whether you're on site and, to try and round that out. Because. To, to either work with an interior designer that you can, if you can't get to site and things like that, just, and see if you can be someone's to, sidekick for the day and go on site. Cause I think there's a lot of value that comes from seeing things on site and how they work. That's where I really. I grew a lot, you know, like, you know, during the course learning you can only go so far. But when you have been on site and you've seen things, you design differently.'cause you actually think, how, no, that's not gonna work because how, and then, and then you provide a better service.'cause you don't give something to the builder and they just look at it and they go, you're dreaming. There's no way to do this. And you also think about all those little details in a design that might have not been considered. So I think. Yeah, I think there's no, unfortunately, I don't think there's an answer. I think, there's definitely a lot of value in educating yourself, but how you educate yourself, I think do it the way that's right for you. It's obviously getting a degree or getting, your diploma or anything is a faster way to, to, to educate yourself. And I feel like if you've got the time, there's a lot of value in it. But it depends also on your direction, where you want to go, where you see yourself working. If you want to work in a design firm, then that's, probably quite essential. It's also, in my mind, Got a lot to do with tenacity personality, like the kind of person you are, because we were talking about before I didn't finish my degree either. And I think if you are like I'm flooded with clients. I know what I want. I know the business that like, I just want to get into it. I personally don't feel like this industry is saturated at all. There's a house for every human. There's a designer for every house. That's a lot of humans and houses and obviously people live together and not getting into the actuals of that, but there's just so much out there in terms of clients and because. designers are so particularly different in the way that their own life experience informs the way they curate pieces and materials and so on, then people will, like your people will absolutely find you. That's not. That's right. I don't think it's ever it's not saturated. I think there's a lot of work out there, if you're Yeah. And that's where I suppose a niche can help as well, because, if someone knows your style and they see a lot of the same style and then it's that's exactly what I'm after. So then it makes it easier for them to, to know that you're the right person. I feel like Pinterest is good for that, because if there's a particular bathroom that you've designed and they've pinned to Zephyr and Stone bathroom, and then they continuously go back to show other people to show the builder to keep talking about this is what I want. Eventually they're going to visit. site move through and actually come and say, can you help me with this bathroom? I just want it to be quite, quite in your style. I imagine that has been helpful being on Pinterest. Yep, definitely. Now there's, this is the most under, what do I want to say? Underestimated sort of comment I've ever made, but running a business can be overwhelming. How do you manage do you have any tips on work life balance? You mentioned the kids lots of my listeners have children as well and are running businesses. Any hot tips? I think I think it's different for everyone. I think it depends on whether you work at night or in the morning. I think that I know I hear a lot of people getting up really early and doing some work beforehand. My kids are older now. So my kids are 18 and 17. I started up worked always had my business throughout because before I before Zephyr and Stone, I was still doing the same thing. It's just that I was doing, privately for clients and doing my own projects. I think it's always a juggling act. It's, I think it's important. I don't think you always get the balance, right? I think it's more important to stop, to take time and just go, okay, I need to stop and, go for two hours. I don't, or three hours. I don't touch this, even if it's a weekday during the day or something, or, depending on how old your kids are and stuff, So rather than, I don't think we ever get balance, and to also when you're in those moments to not be thinking about work and then when you're at work to not be thinking give it the energy don't feel guilty when you're working, do the work, enjoy it. And then when you're doing, when you work with your kids. Thinking about work, put your phone away, do that, try and set the example for them that you want them to follow. But I think, balance is hard, it's always hard and everything, having enough holidays, going to bed early enough. I, for me, I, I. Personally, I go to the gym every single morning. I do things like that, which I, I need and, I get up early and I think but sometimes I, if I've got an idea, if I'm working on something, I'll stay up late and, I think you find out it's important to think about when you're actually being effective. I think that's a really good thing, place to start. Like, when am I actually being effective? If I, and if you're not being effective, you're working, you're like, I'm not being effective, then just stop and do something else, whether that is spending that family time at that time and then pick it up again, later on in the evening when the kids are in bed, because if you're going to be more effective, then don't, that's a way of wasting time and not actually having, not having the balance, but also not being effective. I love that. I love that so much because it's so often missed and you're just powering through, but you're fighting against it. You're hating it. You're not bringing anything good. It's taking twice as long with zero output because nothing is actually going on. And you're like I worked all afternoon. I got nothing done. It's you could have also not worked. You could have, tried to give yourself space, especially people are so hard on themselves in creative industry. A hundred percent. Sometimes creativity isn't there, and I will go and do the washing then because it's like, it's not that. That's something I advocate doing in the middle of my workday. I'm lucky enough to have my studio at home, but I do not do domestic duties when I'm in my studio. But sometimes if nothing is going right, I'm like, do you know what? At least I can feel when I go to school pick up that something happened. Yes and my house is clean, but my work is a hot mess. Or yeah, the other way around. That night after the kids are asleep, if I pick it back up again, suddenly I know exactly which lamp I need to put in. I just couldn't get it. I just wasn't in a flow, like you say, or it wasn't working. I think that's the best advice because sometimes we're like, nope, these are my work hours or I only get three days a week to work and this is one of them and we can push through. And that's when we're making business decisions that aren't quite right for us. Or that's when we're creating marketing that if I don't even want to read it, you sure as shit, my audience don't want to read it. If I've just made it because it's marketing time to do marketing, then that is There's no joy in that. There's no passion. And it's so obvious to anyone having a look because they're like thanks for the blog, but we could tell you hate read it. Yeah, exactly. I think I learned that a long time ago from from a podcast not, you're not going to wake up every day and be energized. Like some days you don't and stop and recognize that. Okay. Today's not a good day to be doing this and this. What can I do today? Is today a good day to sort out all my samples so that when tomorrow I'm having an amazing day, I can find everything. I can put together three color schemes in like minutes because I know where all my gray and grayish and they're all separate. All my tiles are separate and everything's organized and all those things are put away. So go, if I'm not being effective here, what can I do right now that I am going to be effective? Is it you like, is it writing a blog or is it maybe, responding to all the emails that have been sitting there or something else, so be and be kind to yourself. Like you don't, you're not, but I think once you say, once you accept something and you go, Hey, I'm not going to be good every day. Oh, okay. So this is just one of those days. I'm not going to be good. It's not like a long term thing tomorrow. I'm going to be awesome. Yeah. But today I'm not great. Okay. Today, and it's not that you're not great. It's not like that you're depressed or anything else. It's just not You just don't have the buzz that you have every other day. And it happens. It happens every month or a couple of times a month or whatever. And you still do stuff and you still create stuff, but you just don't have the energy that you have another day. You just give yourself permission and go, this is normal. So I'm just going to do something that's, or I'm going to take the day off, I'm going to go sit on the beach because I probably should do that. Actually. Anyway, we all should. We're designing a business. You're running a business. You always, you don't get paid for your overtime and I promise you're all doing it. So going out for lunch when things are not being effective feels like a massive treat. It feels very naughty. Have a glass of Savvy Bee. I don't mind. It's your business. You're not going back to do anything productive anyway, probably going back to do the washing. But without the guilt, I always think to me, I'm like, Oh, no, but I'm paying for Marley to be in daycare. So that's, there's all this pressure, but creativity is not an infinite resource. It's actually very difficult to, as you say, show up in that buzz every single day. So being able to recognize this is a day and this is a moment, it's not a season, it's not a lifetime. It's literally just today. It's just not working and I need to walk away. If you were, this is another thing that I always do. I do it with my kids as well, which is just if you, if they're in trouble for something, sometimes I will say to them if you had to punish you for these, if it was your idea, what would be your ideas around what would happen, what would you assume should happen? And I also think about it in my business as I, if I, Felt this way, what would my employer say if I wasn't the sole person doing all of the things? If I went to my previous manager when I was in corporate and said to her, look, all the projects are at this different level. Everything is going along nicely. I'm not feeling it today. I dunno, what's up. It's just not, I'm working. And she would say to me, either take the rest of the day off, like focus on emails. Do something for KP, do something for the next year, go and do an activity that has nothing to do with the projects or where they're at. And you either pick back up from there or take just walk away. That would definitely have been her advice. And so it's like managing your Self management and thinking about yourself as the employer and the employee and sometimes you just need to give yourself that little gentle feeling of maybe you're just not hitting the mark today, but sometimes it's actually the answer as well, because I think, I know creatively like. I have my best ideas when I'm not working, when I'm when my, it's almost like this space in my brain, and they say when you're on holiday, you have great ideas and things like that. Cause you're actually relaxed. So you're not thinking about it and the ideas come, give you best ideas in the shower. I can definitely vouch for that. I was about to say the shower. We need to, it's actually, there's a science behind it as well. It's something to do with the water. But I think so sometimes taking a break is actually what you need to do. And I think taking a break. Taking time, when you're working, you don't stop taking even 20 minutes and literally going out in the sunshine, you come back, you are so much more energized. You are so much more focused and you go, I've lost 20 minutes for your site. You're actually more efficient. So taking breaks is actually sometimes the problem that you're not taking enough breaks or you're trying too hard. The answer could be a matter of just stepping back and giving yourself a bit of space. And that's also what I was saying before about, people when they're struggling, what color's right, I can't choose the right color. Walk away, put them all down, put them in, natural light. This is what I say, to a lot of people, people who say, because we obviously help and educate a lot of people that are just renovating, not just designers. It's walk away, come back and then at the answer might be quite clear. It might've just been that you had so much going on in your head. You've got, you think about the kids, the washing, everything else. And that sometimes walking away is actually what you need to do. And you talk about longevity and timeless design and all that sort of thing. And I think it's important here to call out your business is also. A long game, it is a marathon and sometimes I think there's all this pressure, but it's actually, this is a timeless design, a longevity thing. We want a business that's sustainable and goes forever. If you continue to push through without a 20 minute break, or you keep working in an ineffective way, you are burnt out. You are frustrated, you're overwhelmed, and you think it's not working. And it's not that it's not working. It's that you're not giving Space for it to come together, so we all have a to do list and a wish list of things and a shiny object list and all the things as long as you can physically imagine but being able to prioritize and look at that as this doesn't all have to happen Q1. It can happen. In 2024, or it can happen across an 18 month period, or perhaps it's my five year plan, but it does not all just because I've just thought of it. You don't have to write it and make it happen and execute it in a 12 week period, because that is exhausting. Oh, 100%. And I think also you want to stop and enjoy and go. If this is something, if you love what you're doing, you want to have those moments and you go, wait a minute, I'm actually like, yes, I'm always going to have goals. I'm always going to have goals. There's always going to be another tier, so enjoy the fact that you're on the journey and you're doing it and you're actually doing what you chose to do, because at the end of the day, I feel like you never really get there. Like a lot of us always trying to, we're on this, hamster wheel and it's so it's really important just to stop and have gratitude and go and, without being boring, but that's a big thing for me. I'm not saying I talk about, but, like gratitude is huge and just being like grateful for the, the journey we're on the opportunities we've got and enjoying them because that's what it's about. Enjoying the fact that you get to do this, because that's at the end of the day, when you look back, that's all you're going to have. You're going to have the whole process, the end is, I don't think you ever get to the end. There's never a point where you go. That's it. Now I can put my hand, you put your hands, you sit back and you go, that's it. I'm done now. I don't have to do anything because it's the journey is actually what you're in, what you're doing. What it is all about. Yeah. You can't clock it. And I think it's such a good observation too, that so many people forget to celebrate the wins and look back and look behind them. It's all forward focused forward momentum movie which is fantastic. But you're not going to get to the end, as you say, it's a wheel, it's a constant. And if you don't spend any time going back and saying, you know what? Last year, me would be shocked, like physically shocked to see me recording a podcast interview right now. Or last year, me had no idea what kind of things just bring on a fourth day of the week when my kids have now gone to school. Just those little things that you don't even think. And you never celebrate them. You never talk about them. Not everything has to be celebrated because it's a marketing message or it's going on new stories or it's this, that, the other. Not everything is an opportunity, but as a small business owner, I think it's really important to look back and just pick out one to five things that you can pick out right now that 12 months ago, you would never have believed because that's the essence of. The joy that comes out of the business, right? Cause you're constantly getting those things and we don't spend any time. It's not about ego. It's not about building yourself up so much as validating that this is a. You're doing this, like this thing that you didn't think was ever possible for you. You're in the middle of it. This is actually your life. It should be so passionate about your business that it's pinch me moments. But do pinch yourself because if you forget to actually enjoy them all you have is business challenge and not joy. Yes, that's right. That's right. A hundred percent. I think, yeah, definitely stop and have those moments. And I think also. That's why it's important to have the long term goals and then the short term goals. What am I going to achieve this week? Or, what one thing can I do on my, for my business? It might just be a one hour thing, but, it's like not doing, it's like planning or creating or putting something new in place. Sorry. You have those stresses of Oh, there's just too much. Like it's, there's too much of this. I couldn't possibly do it. And I think it's almost like financial advice where they say, if you just put 20 away, eventually it's going to look like this. And yes, it is actually really true of small business. Sometimes there is a thing like procedures or other stuff that always feels like above and beyond. And each week you move it on your to do list and it keeps going across. And my advice is if you can, if you could take your 20 minute walk outside, but if you can also do 20 minutes, that's scheduled to 20 minutes of that really overwhelming task once a week, business goes fast. It's not long before you've actually done 52 weeks, 20 minutes at a time. And that entire task is taken care of without thinking about it. It's just yeah, it feels impossible, but nothing is impossible. Like we just have to micro task it and make it happen. And even micro tasking sometimes might mean you actually. And then you go the next day, you go, I'm actually going to dedicate the whole day because I've actually made the progress that now I can just continue. Like doing that is quite important I feel like those big tasks are often way bigger in my head and then I start them and I'm like, Oh, you know what? This is embarrassing. How long I've not done this even. Yeah. Yeah. When they're done really quickly or they've broken up and they're just done. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me. I've loved having a bit of an insight into your brain and listening to your journey with Zephyr and Stone. I will still be following along. I will pop everything in the show notes for anyone who wants to connect. Maybe they want to look at some of your digital products. They want to check out your aesthetic as if they're not already all over it. But I will share all of that in the show notes and look forward to chatting to you again Amazing. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. No worries. Bye for now. Yeah, That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.