Nat, co-founder of Norsu Interiors, dishes the dirt on her career.

My chat with Nat Wheeler, the co-founder of Norsu Interiors, has fast become one of my personal faces! We go into how Nat took risks, said yes, made choices and generally adapted with fierce business smarts to take Norsu from a chat in the playground to a bonified business! From her early days in corporate IT to discovering her true calling in interior design and e-commerce. Nat's story is a testament to the power of creativity and finding your passion, which led her from crafting cushions on the side to launching a celebrated design business with her business partner Kristy. The conversation covers a range of topics including the practical challenges of managing family life while building a business, the transformational impact of integrating technology and marketing skills, and the strategic decisions behind choosing a physical location for their business. Nat's hands-on approach and the candid sharing of both successes and setbacks offer invaluable insights for anyone navigating the complex landscape of modern entrepreneurship.

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Transcript

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Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you can expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. Hey, everyone. Firstly, I wanted to say a genuine huge thank you to the response that I had from Tuesday's podcast episode. On Tuesday, I really stripped back some of the challenges I've been having in terms of being able to support more designers in the industry and the challenges that they are going through when setting up Starting up, scaling, or sustaining an already existing interior design business. And through some of the observations, that I've had in private coaching, which it's really actually flipped a lot. Whereas I used to have a lot more students. I'm now working with a lot more people who are like, listen, if I'm going to pay the money, I want direct access to you. So that has gone really well this year, but yeah, it felt very vulnerable for me to come out and say, Hey, the launches I've been having just aren't what they used to be. The messaging I don't think is wrong. I have a business coach of my own, so I don't just guess these things. And I'm not I guess I'm not someone who is not up for smashing that apart and taking on change and criticism and all that sort of stuff. Anyway. I shared with you that I am restructuring the framework, that May 29th is the last chance for you to grab everything, all of it in one fell swoop as it currently exists and stick with me for 12 months. So this time next year, May 2025, there will be no existing framework. Framework is left. There will simply be people I'm working with to start a business, to scale a business and to sustain a design business. But the reaction out there was. Very unexpected and really appreciated. I loved how many of you saw exactly what I'm trying to do and were like, yes, that makes so much more sense. Now I can do 99. I'm excited. I'm here for it in the new financial year. today I am bringing you, and we shouldn't have favorites, but I'm going to call it, I reckon this is definitely in my top three interviews out of the 70 ish episodes that I have done so far of this podcast. I'm chatting with Nat from Norsew Interiors and she is just the most warm, lovely person Giving, generous, lovely person, someone I absolutely think has done incredible things in the business space, incredible things in the interior space, and I loved every minute of it. I just absolutely loved chatting to Nat. So without further ado, please enjoy this chat with the founder and co business partner of Norsu Interiors, hello. Hello. How are you? Very good. Geez. My studio doesn't look quite as professional as yours. Oh, I'll tell my husband. He built it for me. That's so cool. Look at all that. Yeah. Yeah, he's a English teacher by trade, but YouTube can teach you a lot of things. And we did a collaboration with James Hardy and it was like a big deal. It was great. And he's done well, it doesn't leak and it's two years old. So I think he's done an amazing job. That's so cool. Yeah, it looks slightly bigger. It's three by 2. 8. So I don't have a team in here. It's just me and the dog. So is it in, is it part of the house or is it? Down the back yard. Yeah. So we've got, I've got the little native garden out there and yeah, which is so nice because I have I have an eight year old, a five year old and a two year old boys. So no, they need to be held away. They've never been, they don't, they've been in here, but not frequently. So it's usually a space that has all of my things. Yeah, so it's quite nice. Nice to have, very grateful for it because other than that, it's between the washing baskets on the dining table. Table as you probably know, lots of people do their business, run their businesses that way. So yeah, exactly. Oh, you're lucky. Thank you for joining me today. I am really excited. I've been looking forward to our chat for ages and I'm thinking all the questions that my audience will want for I know. Gosh, yes. I dunno what you're going to hit me with, but that's okay. All right, let's get started. And just get in there. I'm going to ask the most obvious question that you will see coming a mile away. Tell me a bit about your business journey. Yeah. Okay. All righty. So my business journey is I guess somewhat you hear stories like it a little bit. I was the person that sort of went to a private school, went to university. Thought I'd work in a corporate company, which look, I did for a while. I actually did a lot of people don't know, but I did a software engineering degree, which is very laughable. And I can't believe I've just said that publicly cause I try to hide it from people that deep down, I'm a bit of a nerd. And so I did IT, went into corporate and to be honest, I never really loved it. Before doing that, I was, I actually started fine arts but thought, what am I ever going to do with fine arts? So I transferred. Did the IT, went into corporate, but I think that if you're creative, I don't think no matter which path you go down, I think you always come back to something creative because that's where the passion is. So I was obsessed. I used to make cushions on the side. That's a bit of a fun little fact. I always loved Textiles and fabrics, used to make cushions, sell them at markets with my sister in law. I'd sell them online. I used to love doing everything online. Maybe that is the IT background. And then I went on parental leave with my first child and then I met my business partner, Christie at Mother's Group. Oh, how cool. Yeah. Super cool. So I helped Christie decorate her son's nursery. And at the time I guess she was looking for something a little bit different as well and invited me out for a drink one night and at the time we shared a nanny and I thought, Oh my goodness, my daughter has bitten her son. Or something horrific. I remember being so nervous Oh, what's Annabelle done? And we had a drink and she said, I've got this idea. Do you want to start a business? And that was ten years ago. Pretty much today. So that's where it all started. That's so cool. It's you often hear, I know that's certainly my experience looking around, what else can I do? I can't go back to corporate. I've just had a baby, my whole, and it's no longer a priority to me. So I need to come up with some way to stay with my child and not go back to work. Absolutely. You do. I think your priorities change and I did a lot of travel and for me, just, I don't know about anyone else. But I became this anxious flyer the minute I had a child and I was just like, no way am I getting on that plane all the time doing travel when she was a baby. So yeah, thankfully I got that out. Definitely changes everything. I feel the same way. I became more of an anxious driver and I'm still fine myself in the car, but the second I have my three kids in the back, I drive totally different. Like it's. My brain works differently because they exist. Or if you drive someone else's child, I become sensible Susan on the road. Nathan, you mentioned the software and tech stuff. Did that inform a bit of an easier path? Because the tech is a real roadblock for a lot of small business owners. It's hard because we didn't get into it to learn that. Kind of thing when Christie came to you and said, this is my idea. Did you immediately think e commerce think, getting it online, like where did your head go straight away? Yes, basically. Yes. I think it's because we actually, I probably should have said, but we Stayed in our corporate jobs. So we stayed in those jobs for another, probably two years. I'm thinking, because all small businesses, you need money to fund the passion. So we stayed in the jobs and it wasn't until I had my second child, Harvey, that we opened a shop. So we had to do e commerce because we were going, to our corporate jobs, nine to five. And I guess, look. As much as I pretend to not like the it, I actually love e-commerce. Yeah. Obviously I love social media, so for us, I think it was lucky because Christie has a marketing background and then my background's it. So that sort of stuff came a little bit more naturally than actually. The interior design and the retail. So that was the stuff we could do more confidently. And in the long run, I'd have to say it just saved us thousands and thousands. Yeah, it's, they're really great transferable skills to have if you're going to get into business to come and even just people sometimes, I think, underestimate what transferable skills they have, because even just working, collaborating in a corporate environment, like that's a skill that you can bring to a new business and a lot of people think, Oh, I don't really know much about business. It's you'd be so surprised what your life experience has exposed you to, and what is transferable. Yeah, couldn't agree more. Now I want to talk a little bit about street front and retail, as you mentioned, maybe that's not something you'd been in before. And I love that you did mention that you stayed in your jobs because I thought, wow, you're really not risk adverse with a new baby to just be like, Oh, let's do it. Let's open a shop front. I was thinking that was a bit wild, but it's good to know that you did it in a little bit more of a sensible path when it comes. Yeah, probably sensible, but also really stupid. Like I took a five month old baby. Into the store and I worked in the store. So people that came in the early days met Harvey, he would be behind the counter or in mascot. Yeah. And now what was I thinking? I look at any new parent now and just think, how did I do that? How did I survive? Would not recommend it. No, it's not necessarily the plan, but. For me, that's one of the things I love about business is you ride the wave and it's not always the plan, but it always, so far works out and just, but when you do look back, those are the things that you think, how did I get a minute's work done? What is the baby? I have no idea, but that's just how you have to get it done. If that's what you want to start and what you wanted to do. Yeah. So in terms of straight front retail and getting into that space. How did you come to that decision? How did you choose a location? All of that, I imagine. Did you just talk it out, get help, get a third party, get someone else to, do you remember? No, I do remember, absolutely. I think being on parental leave, it's, like I would just say, this is, we're so unfair to ourselves as females, and to be honest, as males on parental leave too. But I guess I gave myself permission. To find a store because in my head, I still had a corporate job. So I hope that makes sense, but for me, it wasn't like this massive, okay, I'm going to take this big risk, or I think I'm good enough to open a shop, so I'm going to quit my job. The imposter syndrome was there then, and it's still there today, to be honest, 10 years later. But I gave my permission, my self permission that, okay, let's open a store, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work because I have a job. So it just, it was a bit of a mindset and then it just happened to me. I think I was getting coffee one morning. It's honestly as simple as that in the local area. And we saw a Felice sign next door. And I said to Christie, look, I'm going to have a bit of time having another baby. Maybe I should give it a shot. Like what an idiot. And and then Christy was like, the great part about Christy is she's a person, she's a real yes person. She's yeah, no that's okay. You do it. I'll work the corporate job. We'll, we'll make it work. We missed out on that lease, but it really cemented the fact that it was something that we wanted to do. So we started to look elsewhere. For us, it was about convenience. We opened up the shop. Honestly, five minutes from our homes and still today, 10 years later, we are in the same area. For us, that if we were going to leave well paid corporate jobs to take on this risk that certainly doesn't offer the salaries that, that they did. It had to be about convenience and giving us something else. And, we don't miss assemblies. We don't, the kids are often in here because now they're at the age where they can walk back after school. So for us, it was around lifestyle and our families. And soon you can get them to work instead of carrying them in a bag. They will be, trust me, if they want some, some gaming money, they have to put the stickers on the bags and yep. So that's looking at that well. I really love the perspective as well around like how sometimes mistakes guide you into a better opportunity, like missing out on that storefront. Some people would see that as Oh, it's a sign. It's the university. Don't do it. Don't, but actually what often happens is we find a better path and it's because it's just not the right fit. Yeah, exactly. And where we are, because we're still in the same area, not the exact same shop, but it's much busier than the old spot. So it certainly happened for a reason. I wanted to talk about misconceptions around on selling or wholesaling or doing that sort of thing, because I feel as though I've heard a lot from students that I work with in my course around oh, maybe I'll just do an online shop as well with my trade discounts, or maybe I'll just do this. And I think that they're really underestimating what that actually is. Is and how different that is to what you might do when you pass on a discount as a designer, or when you're aware of that, could you talk to me more about what that's and what you like the realities of it, running an online and in person store. Yeah yeah, look, it's a great question. And I think that we should start by saying that when we launched Norse Soup, we didn't do any interior design. So very different perhaps to a designer setting up an e commerce or a retail space. We went straight into it as retailers. So for us, there was a gap in the market at the time, and that's what we did. It's only, we launched our interior design business, which is actually a separate company. So North Sioux Home is a separate company. We only launched that probably six years ago. So I guess for us, we really come into it more with the retail, wearing a retail hat. So when it comes to discounts, I think, you speak to anyone, it is such a hard slog retail. I love it. I love people. I love helping people. I'm a bit of a weirdo when it comes to that because I really, that's what gives me my energy. It's hard out there. And when the economy is tough, it's a hard slog for our team at times, just to get the sales. So I think when it comes to discounting, we're probably a little bit more protective of that because we know it is hard. We know the overheads that we have, to young people that think, Oh, I've got a trade discount. I can pass that on. A trade discount is a lot less than a wholesale discount, which retailers get. I guess teach yourself the difference between wholesale and trade, because I know a lot of our staff members didn't know the difference. And offering a trade discount to a client through an e commerce website, you probably won't even cover your overheads. Getting a website, getting the website design, doing your shipping, you're always losing money on your shipping, your packaging. To be honest, it's just not as good as it seems. If something seems easy, it's probably not. It's such good advice. And yeah, just those backend realities, I think people just don't really go through. Like my time, if I was to charge my time as a professional interior designer versus my time in the backend of this shop that I've created. To try to help people get it it can not be as fancy as it feels. It really isn't. So let me tell you, it might be the first or the last part of small business. That's not as bad as it feels. Otherwise I think we'd all be doing it. Absolutely. I wanted to also talk about I guess let's go into the business side of things around. You talked about being so passionate about what you do and loving what you do. Is there a particular part of your business that you could never walk away from? Oh gosh wow. I'm thinking, it's so funny because a couple of things immediately jumped to mind thinking about that question. Am I allowed to say maybe three things? I'll narrow it down to three. Yeah, of course. The first would be, I genuinely, I'm obsessed with decorating and I guess it's gone further now into renovating because I've become a little bit of a, compulsive renovator. People don't even think I'm going to stay in the house that I've just finished, but I haven't even seen the end reveal yet. Yeah, exactly. So I actually am obsessed. Like I live and breathe it. It's not just a job. I spend hours on blogs and websites. I just, it is my. Passion in life. Two though, and probably one I should have said first is I love my team. And I'm not just saying that we come in here. I, there's actually, oh, there's over 20 of us at NorSoo now. And we laugh so hard that I cry nearly every day. Like minded people, yes, it's stressful and I work crazy hours, but I've never laughed so hard as I do here. And also, One thing that I'm extremely passionate about, and so is Christy, that I couldn't step away from, is it's not just about pretty stuff for me, it's about, I feel that every single individual deserves to have a place where they love to live, no matter how big, small, whatever. Whatever that looks like, for me, one day, I hope that it goes from just pretty to something a bit more audacious that we can change the way that our environment is around us so that we genuinely love where we are and love our, our own little haven. Oh, I love that. And did you notice I didn't ask you which parts of your business you'd throw in the bin? Would you like me to go into the tea? Sure, why not? It is good, I think, to remind ourselves of those core reasons that we do what we do and that we would never walk away from it because It's much easier to fall into today. I want to be in this business because there's always those little things. It's a bit like the mistake thing that you mentioned before, it might feel like a mistake in the moment, or it might feel like a misstep, but it's actually probably still taking you in the right direction. No, I better listen back to these podcasts when I have those moments. It's a good reminder. How do you think Norsu differentiates? Like, how do you differentiate the business from competitors in the retail space? Yeah, I think we often think about that and I must say I always question the team, what is our point of difference? I guess that's where the corporate never leaves you. And for us, I think it is that we show people how to use our products in their home, how to use, how to style. It isn't just here is a cushion. It comes in pink and grey. For us, it's here is the cushion. This is how to style it. This is how to position it. This is where you could reuse it. This goes with that. I think for us that has always been because of our social media presence. For those that don't know, we've got a relatively large Instagram and I think it's because we love to teach people things as well. And then from the interior design perspective, we've thought about how do we stand out in the crowd? And that is about putting a practical lens on things as well. So yes, again, it might look good, but how do you actually use it? How do you use it functionally? Lauren in our team is a functional whiz when it comes to technical. So when she's designing kitchens, she's thinking of people like us, like People that have busy lives with children, how do you use that bench space with the dishwasher, the bin in a practical way, rather than here's a beautiful marble and this color is amazing. Of course, we love that, but there's more to it than that. And I think that's where your kids come into it again when we talk about teaching and showing and stuff like I have seen over the years. So many different things where I'm like, Oh yeah, but I've got, Oh, hang on a second. So does she, like I can straight away say it is possible to live in this home with children because these are real living children who live in this home. I think that's one of the things that a lot of audience do connect with, because as you say, you are showing them, not just telling them or just putting it up. It's like 2d pictures of what they can do. In terms of Instagram, you'd mentioned you have a large platform. Is that your platform of choice? Has that changed? I feel like Instagram is changing. Maybe that's me, but certainly in the last five years, I've had my business now six years, and it has gone from a place where, you know, Things maybe felt a bit easier. They certainly did for me and they definitely are feeling that we're climbing a bit more of a mountain these days when you are getting on there. Have you noticed that shift as well? I, how are you feeling about it? Couldn't agree more. I think when we hit it's Instagram, we hit it literally, I feel like the day it launched, we were just there at the right time. People often say, how did you get such a big account? I'm not sure. I really do think it was just being there at the right time. It's always been organic. We've never done anything else. Kristy and I also manage it still. So if someone sends a DM, they're hearing back from us. I can vouch for that. I've been in the DM. Yeah, exactly. And sometimes people think we're the same person and that's funny too. But I think, can we grow a following like that now? No way. And I would say even it's hard to hold on to the following that you have. So I actually really feel for people starting out now, because I think it would be much harder than when we did. I think your question about, is it still our platform of choice? Without a doubt even though we might not be growing our following there is a direct correlation to when we post and how well we perform. It's unbelievable. Like we cannot leave it. Like even before I thought, should I post quickly before I speak to you? Or will we be able to wait another hour? So whilst you may not think that your Instagram is as important I guess try to put some measurement in place because we can see the sails. Yeah. It's interesting. I've had these chats all the time about your next client is always watching. They might not hit the like button because that's no longer how they measure that they're going to interact with you, but they are watching you. So they might falling in love with you. They're falling in love with your brand and what you can offer them. But you may never hear, you may have never, ever seen their name, email address, anything until that Stripe notification, or, until that payment comes through and you're like, Oh, What is all of this? And that's about that measurement. Yeah, trying to look at likes is what I would say to people starting out or even existing because I can tell you what, you hit rock bottom the minute that you do. You think how have so many people spoken to me about the house renovation and that post got 20 likes or but you've got to be, in their thoughts for the minute they're ready to go. So just keep I think it's really refreshing and nice to hear people speak honestly, as I feel it was about a time and a moment and a season where you just can't get enough. Hit the ground running on Instagram. There was a period where anyone in the interior industry joining Instagram would get between 50 and a hundred K. Like it was just this frenzy. I felt as though like followers. And now I work with so many girls who are like turning themselves inside out and comparing themselves to these brands who are 10 years plus, they're sitting on that time. They were there at the right time. And it's really not about. I personally feel when you have a hundred K, you can sometimes struggle and have to work really hard on your engagement and what conversations are being had and who's interacting in what way. And when you have a hundred people, you can find that almost half of them will talk to you willingly. And, there's a different kind of focus. I completely agree. And I think at Norsu, we've got the benefit of having three accounts. People don't know that, but we've got, Norsu interiors that is, 300 plus thousand plus. We've got Norsu home that's 50. And then we've got Norsu cabin that's three and a half. I can tell you those smaller accounts. are almost more successful. That's how I feel as well. Yeah, and we always say, okay, we really need to get this message across. Nat, post it on Norsu Home because that one gets more engagement. We can post the same post and we compare the performance and the smaller account does better. Big accounts get lost. Hold on to hope. And also celebrate, when we talk about 3 percent of the algorithm, get to see things and so on 3%, it might be broader numbers, but you don't know which 3%. It might not be your engaged 3%. It might not be when you have a smaller account. There are so many things to celebrate about that because your message gets straight into the core like you don't get clouded and messy and all of those things. Have you guys spent much time across multiple platforms as well? Obviously you would have your email marketing and then Pinterest as well. And we do Pinterest. Oh, I'm laughing in advance because I knew you were going to ask me that question. I just don't feel we're cool enough. And that's not the business response that you get. It's just so funny. I don't know whether it's because I have an almost 13 year old that's on TikTok and I see how she interacts with it, that I just go, but I just don't seem at that level. We have tried, but it's almost like we laugh at ourselves every time we do it. Oh my gosh, that was so boring. Or that was so not funny where I can't help, but just think of TikTok quite differently. But. I'm hoping someone can teach me to change that mindset because we had one of our artists in here before we're talking about Sunday's launch, which is my son's room. And she's Nat, you've got to get on and you've got to post that artwork on TikTok because I did last week and it went viral and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I have to push myself. So we haven't, but could that mean that we could do it? Grow our business more. I'm sure it, I'm sure it would. So if anyone's listening to this and they can give me some tips, DM me, cause I'd like to know. That's me too. I think it's for me a bit of a hesitant, like I do consume a little bit of TikTok on a Friday for half an hour. And I feel like when I'm over 40, so I'm thinking, is this for me? Do I feel a bit strange about this? But some things that I've had identified to me recently is low Click through costs, if you're doing any ads or whatever, it's much lower on TikTok. And just that my ideal client is in an age bracket that is definitely using it for different business tips for me. For interior design and stuff. And that definitely should be there. And it's just like the Pinterest thing. We knew everyone's going there as homeowners. So we have to get over whatever we have and get on there. I don't know if you've heard this or not, but TikTok is currently about to launch a secondary app, which is a rivalry with Instagram called TikTok notes. Is static posts and captions, so not videos. So it's gone back to old school in stuff. So maybe in your marketing calendar for the next quarter, you might want to start investigating TikTok notes and having a think, get in first. I plan to be there. Okay, great. And that we would feel more comfortable with just using. Good tip. I definitely feel that TikTok thing though. I feel like there's this pressure and TikTok is a very creative platform, but it's a creative platform in a totally different way to any of the others. So I feel like you have to be funnier and cooler and come up with something quirky and new and that's not me. It's like we're from the wrong generation. Yeah, no, it's not funny either. That's good. I'll hang out with you on the existing platforms and maybe go over to TikTok notes because that seems achievable to me. Exactly. I want to talk to you about balancing your very recognizable, very beautiful aesthetic with sort of commercial viability and changes in trends and all that sort of stuff. Do you ever feel as though, I'm certainly not saying like the Norsu time is over, but there's obviously So a particular palette, like when I see work, I know stuff that's come out of your store and I love it, but is there ever any concerns about changing having to bring in more bold colors or anything like that? Oh, there's those concerns every day, every single day. And anyone that says there aren't, they're lying. I think that, you need to be, as a business owner, you need to be acutely aware of things like that. Because the minute you go, Oh, they're, they love blush. They love grey. The minute it's all over we are constantly looking at the way Ways that we can reinvent ourselves, there's not a day that goes by, honestly, where I don't think is this bubble going to burst and maybe it is that imposter syndrome that I referred to earlier, but I, and maybe at times, if I'm honest, probably the bubble has been closed. And it's probably when we're not laser focused on how to do things differently. So for us, yes. We've tried to delve off that typical North Sea look a few times. If we go too far, people aren't interested. Like we tried to be really cool a few years ago and go down that boho path that was popular about five years ago. Sales declined. We realized, no, they weren't coming to Norsu for that. So we've got to do it in a really careful way. My house is probably an evolution of our look. It does have more color, but it has, measured color. We're not going from, pastel tones to neons. It's just, That next progression, but also thinking of the way that we do things differently. If we we're a retailer that still, just sold cushions and prints, we wouldn't exist today. We've started a design business. We've launched an also cabin, which, is an Airbnb. It's around the corner from me. I'm so here for it. Okay. I see. Stalk you when I can see where you Oh, did you Oh, absolutely. I'm like, she's from the Macedon Ranges. This is meant to be. And I think that if we didn't do things like that, we wouldn't exist. So that was a long way of answering what I could have just said as yes. I think that's good because it shows that, yep. We'll keep our core sort of traditional line and then we will have evolutions. And, with all things to do with home wares, furniture, any of that stuff, you almost need to have, This stuff for the traditionalist, this stuff for the guys who go in for the trends, a little bit of this for those that are just need a suggestion that they couldn't have thought of themselves and it's a lot, isn't it? It is a lot. It's all a lot. Having a day like that today. Speaking of things that might be all of a lot, I don't know if this is triggering or not, but I really want to talk about the business sort of reaction, the hashtag pivot that happened during the pandemic as a shop front, like owning a shop front. Yes. Great. The e commerce stuff, but I can imagine you have stock, you have staff, you have responsibilities. We all struggled in all different ways. And so if this is too much, please pull me up. I am really curious about that approach because I think a lot of lessons were learned in that time from all of us around, how do you mindset wise go into that? What did you do? And how do you get out the other side? Yeah. It was Looking back, it was one of the worst moments of my life, but it was also some of the best. And I will never forget when it all happened asking our team to jump on. A conference call where we basically had to say, we don't know what's going to happen. We're going to have to reduce hours. We did it immediately. I guess we went in with the worst case scenario, and I guess that was purely in an act of survival. And then, We're really quick to do things differently. I think both Christy and I have absolutely obsessive personalities. I probably sadly leave lead the obsessive nature when it comes to the two of us and it was about, okay how can we do things differently again to survive? And we introduced virtual styling and I know you do that as well, Rhiannon. I did that before COVID. So I was you are just a trailblazer. Actually, the one thing that was really great is no one knew what I was talking about for all that time beforehand. And then after COVID, I was like, see, it's not hard. I know. So we did we actually did virtual styling where we did the amount of zoom. Calls I had with clients who welcomed me into their home. We got the whole team doing it. Believe it or not, live chat wasn't even a big thing a couple of years ago. So we quickly turned on live chat and we went from, thinking it was going to be quiet to the busiest. Time of our life. And when I said some of the best times, what we did is we, I think that was the shift where we went to teaching people how to do things. And so I, I started basically these how to styling videos on Instagram. And weirdly they got a bit of a cult following and that changed things for Norsu. I think that was the moment that we went more from the traditional retailer into something different. And people still, it's beautiful. People still say to me, Oh my gosh, like we couldn't wait for those videos. And we'd pour a glass of champagne at home and watch them. And a tough time. It was horrific yet it had this sense of, connection in another way. And we've never. Turned any of those new tools off, they all still exist. Great. Isn't it? Because it was like that in, both of us being Melbourne located, there is a certain it was a long time and it was really hard, but all of those memories I have of certain accounts that showed up and did things differently. And yes, you were watching an InstaLive or learning a thing, or that connection was a little bit different because people were so curious. terrified of losing it that we were creating it in all different ways. Like I was playing card games with friends online that I wouldn't even play with in real life. Exactly. Or how long since you've gone to the park with a cheeky vino in your hands? Like now I couldn't do that. About an hour. I've got small kids. It was this morning with the wine in your coffee cup. Well done. Not today. It's tell me a little bit about North Zoo Cabin. I'd love to have a chat about it because obviously it sounds as though there's lots of different arms and branches to the overall like empire that is North Zoo, but I've had a sneaky look at it. I haven't driven past it, but I will soon because it's so close. Where, how did that idea come about? Yeah, again, another idea that really just sprouted overnight, I, my husband and I have always loved. That area, and my husband's a real estate agent, but in Melbourne but, real estate agents are always looking at, what's around them. And when we go on little family weekends away, he'd always have a look. One particular weekend we were staying in Woodend at some friend's house. At a, one of their houses and we sat on the couch and just did the whole, Oh my gosh, imagine could you ever imagine that we could do something like this? And Dan found this quirky little log cabin and that's what it is. And Dan is normally a pretty conservative person and he turned to me and he said, I think I've just found A property we need to buy. And I'm like, what Mr. Conservative. How many wines have you had? Yeah. This was in the morning as well, but no. And I was like, it's, he's the sort of person that if he says something like that, he literally means it and he never turns back. So I just got so excited. Cause I'd say yes to all those crazy ideas. And then we thought we can't afford it. Had a meeting with our accountant a couple of days later and stupidly not so stupidly, but the accountant said, you need to do something different this year, and I was like is there any way we could buy a property and do a North Sioux short term accommodation? And I thought she'd be like, nah, she can't afford it. Stop doing that. Like she normally does. And she's actually, that is a very good idea. Anyway, we then, I said to Christy, sorry about that, but are you would you be keen? Sorry about that. Sorry about that. Dan and I can't afford it. What about you and I under the business? And Christy being the gorgeous person that she is, she's yeah I think we should do it. She drove down the next day and we had signed the contract by the Saturday and we bought it. It's amazing. Yeah. And, I wasn't busy enough doing a huge renovation in Melbourne, so I decided that it needed to be renovated. So I did a quick, three month renovation on the cabin and we launched it officially in January this year. Amazing. And I can absolutely vouch for anybody listening. It is a beautiful spot, autumn and winter, summer, doesn't matter, it's so nice. No, it's our happy place. Oh, that's good. I hope you get to spend some time in it as well. I can't imagine where that time's coming from, but sure. They're going to link us all the way back to the start, to the software questions specifically, now that I know you have a bit of a background, because I wanted to know if there's some business tools or software that you can't live without, like that you would recommend for new business owners or business owners in general. Oh, wow. What couldn't I live without? Oh, okay. Actually, who was I kidding? Why did I even need to stop to think? I hi, I'm Nat, and I have an analytics addiction. Yes, I'm very creative. I have weird two sides to the brain, but I could not live without Google Analytics. I couldn't live without the analytics tools from Instagram, from Pinterest, to to Meta, to Shopify. I could not live without those analytics because it is the only way that you can. Truly measure what's working and what's not. But otherwise you're totally blind. Totally blind. And I think a lot of people sadly maybe do go through their small business being a little bit blind. But I think any of those analytic tools even zero. Looking, look at your profit and loss. I'm sounding so boring here, but look at it and highlight areas that you're doing really well in areas that need improving, because it's the only way you'll grow. It's so such good advice, but also really important to call out. I am the same as you, you can be creative and academic. You can be creative and into the numbers. And I think too many people let. The general noise of other people saying, Oh, you're not very good with this or that, or the other, because you're creative. And that is a lie. You can actually be obsessed with the analytics as obsessed as you are with whatever creativity, So I would suggest with both and also I think don't be so arrogant that a lot of people say to us, Oh, Norse is big. You don't need to worry. I'm like, absolutely. We need to worry like, and if we didn't look at those tools, you can't just go through things going, Oh people say we're good. So yeah we must be, no, there's so much that we can improve. That'd be my biggest tip. And of course I'm using. All those tools and platforms to run the business. And the other thing that, like this listen to podcasts, like I just, I I actually love going to Macedon because it is my podcast time. So I, throw on podcasts in the car, I think I should have got you into the studio. You could have just literally dropped on in. There's just enough room for both of us, but we could have shared a seat. Yeah. I probably prefer to bring my mic up to the cabin to be fair, and we'll meet there next time. That is really. Yeah. Yeah, an eyeopening thing because, and you talk about the arrogance of business or whatever, but I think it is important to remember that educated decisions are really important and you do never get big enough. If you're bigger, you just have more questions. It's like little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems, little business, little problems, big business. Big problems, but you should always be like, yeah, double checking and making those informed decisions instead of the vibe, because that's not going to run your business. I wish we used to say fake it till you make it, but I think we've had to grow up and maybe change that. Yeah, there's an element to that at the very beginning, which I think is more about projecting where you'd like to be in six to 12 months than it is about actually doing it in a fake way. Yes. Very true. I wanted to check with you around what kind of factors you consider when selecting products that you obviously partner with and sell? Stock and feature in store. I imagine that sort of collaboration and partnership takes up a whole bunch of your considered informed decisions as well. Can you talk me through that process of it? Yeah, definitely. So I do Christie and I have different areas of the business that we oversee and don't let her do it. She'll just say yes to everyone. Exactly. She's so nice. I'm certainly that may be the slightly tougher one. But I oversee buying with Gorgeous Sky in our team and how we, firstly it's obsessive research. And then it is it really has to sing true to the North Sioux look. Even though I said we can delve into it. Into different areas. It really still does. I have to go, but no, that's not the Norsu customer. Constantly thinking about back to who is the Norsu persona, who is the customer. So you can hear some of that Norsu laughter out there, if you can hear it. And then, so always thinking about that. Another thing as Norsu has grown and I guess the landscape shifted, I don't like to take on products that are sold everywhere. In fact, it's my pet hate. And so quite often when I'm meeting with people, I have to say is it sold? Anywhere else, because if it is, it doesn't work for us and it doesn't work for them. I think there needs to be some sort of exclusivity to the products that we sell and you've really got to wear that business hat. Otherwise the market is completely saturated. And and also sourcing things that are a little bit different art's a great one for us. And the other thing is I am absolutely passionate about other small businesses. So quite often Norsu is the one helping to launch someone else's business. I'm thinking of brands like Co Theory, which is a I was just about to mention that I've spoken to the founder quite a few times. Gorgeous. And as soon as I saw you were stuck in it, I was like, yeah, go like that's the perfect synergy of the massive, perfect friends. And that's what makes my heart skip a beat. That's why I get up in the morning because I genuinely love seeing other people succeed. And when you get to work with beautiful people like Larissa or Fox and Leo, Sunglass Cases, Nat from there, they're just people that it's just Oh my gosh, it is an utter joy to bring their products to people. And I think I'm pretty lucky to have that role. It's also really good. You talk about, making sure that it's not. Super mainstream and everywhere. But from my experience going into particular boutique homewares and shop like retail street facing store. I don't want to say the same thing. Like the kind of business that you have, it's not Kmart. It's not nonsense and it's not everywhere. And it's not. It's exactly just where you are as North Sea. So I think that's such a great consideration that it is all bespoken. You're only going to get that one experience when you're in that one store because of the effort you put into buying in the background. Is there anything that comes to mind business wise that you've tried and it's just not worked? Oh, I'm sure there's a million things I've tried. I can think of one, I can think of one, one example just yesterday and it's something so small. And I'll. Share a bigger example with you, but little things like we're working on Mother's Day at the moment, and we always do a Mother's Day promotion, and we sell these amazing rechargeable candle lighters called the Flint they sell so well. I had this idea. Let's personalize them for Mother's Day. Wouldn't it be great if you could put mum's name on it? And I'm always having these crazy ideas where the more logical people in the team go, Nat, that's a logistical nightmare and how are you going to do that? And anyway, we got them engraved yesterday to test them. And they just honestly could not look worse if they tried. Just imagine clip art pasted onto the paper. I would say that not every idea is a great idea that was a shocker, and so that idea has sadly been binned, but we'll keep exploring another good idea but you can't let that sort of dampen your day, it's okay, that didn't work, let's move on. One other sort of bigger things I'm not saying that it was a failure at all, but for us, more shops Never works, like bigger is not better and I think that we've had shops in Brighton, Hampton, Hawthorne. They always sound fun at the time, they're actually a lot of work for no more profit. We didn't lose money, but you're looking at inventory management, you're looking at more overheads, more staff, more problems. Exactly what you said before, bigger business, bigger problems. And for us, we'd rather do things like the North Sea Cabin than open another store. Great store for us in Melbourne is exactly where we should be. Yeah, I think it's really good to think about that because sometimes we're so busy trying to advance and look like the bigger and the better and the more, franchise that it's like what you started for though, because I think in mother's group when you and Chrissy were chatting, you did not want to become a franchise in every way. Capital city of Australia, like that maybe isn't your dream. So maybe you just need to come back down to earth a little bit. And it needs, you need to be reminded. My mom always reminds me of that. Like when I'm working crazy hours, she's you left a corporate job to get away from what you're currently doing. Like reset. Yeah. So good advice, mom, because I find myself. Having to say that quite a lot over the course of the last couple of years okay, aren't you trying to design a success and build flexibility and have, I've got very little kids. It's you can't do everything. So what are you going to change? As you say, like reset, rethink, reshape, re imagine, do what you need to do with your business, restructure it if you need to, but make sure that you keep pulling it back to that core reason that lights you up. Because if you're actually, yeah, just marching one foot in front of the other, you're not having a good time. This is not fun. No, you have a lot of resentment. Yeah. Okay. Last question for you. I'm curious around mentorship specifically have you explored mentorship over your journey? Do you mentor other I just wonder, sometimes you see people with these big Instagram followings and things look big and it's like, where are you at with that journey now? Do you still get coaches and mentorship or? Yeah. Yeah. I have had many mentors. I don't have someone at the moment and I would love. Someone I, right back to my second corporate job, I had a wonderful mentor. I still think of her as, the person that's up on the pedestal. And not because it had anything to do with interior design or retail. For her, she taught me a lot about personal brand and, she was amazing. And then we have, Kristy and I have had a couple of coaches that we've had for a few years. I just think that probably it's now at that point for me that I'd be looking for someone else. It's I love them dearly, but we've explored a lot of those, conversations and they've taught me so much, but now I'd love someone. A little bit more different. We also have done things like business chicks power players. We've done a lot of those, when you're a small business, you don't have, those amazing resources around you that I did when I worked in corporate. So you've got to go out and find them. Do I mentor anyone? I don't mentor anyone, but I do love to have a coffee conversation with people and share the story. Share my journey. We have a lot of work experience students that come here from some of the local schools. But yeah, I certainly think there's a gap there for me. So maybe that's a task from this that I need to go and find someone. Add anything to your to do list, but I think there is seasons and I think it's interesting to think about okay when I need this, I'll look for that. And there's different qualities. And I really am a big believer about Working with multiple people to get the best outcome for you. So it's almost like a library and each person is a book in your library and you can take different things out of that and grow in different ways that I might talk to you about tech in a way that I couldn't talk to someone else about because I, yeah. So I think it's really nice to just see that. Yes, have done it. Do it. We'll do it again. It's. Always interesting to me to see at different levels or years experience in business, where people are at in their journey of still getting coaching and help and for your whole journey. I don't think that ever ends and that objective view and those little mic drop moments that people can give you. And again, podcasts, I get them from them all the time. So do I. Get that notes out, like I'm always like, pause the podcast, over to the voice memo. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time today and joining me. I know so many of my listeners are going to be excited. They're going to rush out and rent four leases or buy a cabin. I don't know. Maybe ask me in 12 months how it went, but thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute delight. Thanks. Now chat soon. Okay, see you later. Bye for now. Bye. Okay, now do you know what I was talking about when I said it was just such a great chat? I really loved hearing about the decision processes that Nat and her team go through, the challenges that she has on Instagram, and just the way that she approaches things. It was an incredible conversation. If you are not already following one of her three accounts or three of her three accounts, jump into the show notes. I've shared them. Good luck getting a spot at the Norsu cabin cause I happen to know from looking at the Airbnb, like the booking calendar that it is very heavily booked, but maybe she can squeeze me in for a sneaky midweek stay. Don't forget, tickets are selling really fast for our personal branding and full day mentorship, b roll video content. This is the sort of marketing concentrated stuff that you will be paying for at retreat, at going away for three to five days straight. We're giving it all to you in one day. Very intimate, very focused group of 15 women. And there are very few tickets left. Tickets will need to come off sale by the 20th of May. And that is just so that we can organize flights and accommodation and things for some of our interstate guests. So please DM me the word room if you're interested and I will send you all of the details to explore that further. And if you're not already on the wait list for the last ever Framework launch, please do come across to see me on Instagram at at oleander underscore and underscore Finch, and I can hook you up. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success. I'm going to be doing a video on how to make a video. So if you're interested in that, please do subscribe. I'll see you guys in the next video. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.