Designing Success

balancing time zones, health and business growth with Lisa Hunter

• rhiannon lee

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Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander and Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now, let's get designing your own success. On today's episode of Designing Success, I had the immense pleasure of being able to sit down with a longtime friend and follower and co-conspirator, if you will. I've chat to Lisa so many times in our dms, in emails. We've kept in touch for many, many years, right since the beginning of Oleander and Finch. And she's been a great support, very encouraging. And it just made sense for me to have her on the podcast when we initially spoke about. Her being a guest on this podcast, she disclosed to me that she had a cancer diagnosis over the course of the, year or two before that request, and that she would really, really love to come on here and remind people to check their breasts and to be really aware and really. Proactive when it comes to Yep. Checking, putting it in the diary, making sure that that's a message that, especially in a female dominated industry, that the women are getting the message loud and clear so that no lump goes undetected. So it is a very important message. It's not what today's episode is about. It is about, um, friendship and business and. A lot of great insights. Lisa is incredibly talented at what she does. She also brings a really strong background in, fashion and management, so she has really great insights and perspectives. So I'm gonna leave you there. I don't wanna tell you all of it, or you're listening to me for the whole hour, but I really hope that you'll enjoy this episode. I would also like to leave that with a huge reminder that as soon as you finish. Or while you're listening, I don't really care. No, we listen and we don't judge. Please check your breasts. I was reflecting before, so I was thinking about the very first time that we had a Zoom call was a mentor call. So you, I remember you reached out to me in my dms and were like, Hey, would you consider doing this? It wasn't an offer or a service that I sort of offered yet. I hadn't done that before and I was reflecting this morning and I was thinking, oh gosh, that must've been about, I dunno, 18 months ago or something. Now I looked at my diary and I was like, oh, it was 2021. Okay. It was actually quite a few years ago. It was ages ago. Ages. It was, it doesn't feel like that long though. Like it honestly not felt like, yeah, I don't know. I just, I thought it was 18 months and then I went, oh no. And then I thought. Of course not, because I had a three week old baby, if you recall. I was like breastfeeding under the Zoom call. Like it was tiny. Tiny. We've been having fun because time's flying, so that's a good thing. Yes, just buzzing. Well, I definitely have to thank you because I feel like you're probably personally responsible for a complete trajectory change in my business because it had never really occurred to me. Like I'd, I'd had quite a few people reach out and ask specifics. I feel like specifically around working with American clients, I think a lot of people were interested in like, how are you doing that? Like that's an odd thing to do. Um, or a brave thing to do. You know, you've been in business for a year, why are you over there working in Philadelphia and Hawaii and like just getting it done via Zoom? But yeah, it's actually going ahead and thinking, oh, there's probably something to this given I've got a bit of business. Background that I could probably pull it all together and, and move in that, um, kind of trajectory. So a big thank you from me and my past students that I've taught. Because you started the whole thing. Yeah. No, no. Well, you, you had the inquiries people are asking you, so it's, you know, makes sense to use your, what people are asking for, you know, so, and I, and I was similar'cause I was doing the same, still doing consulting in my previous career. So yeah, it just makes sense to kind of add strings to your bow or use your previous skills. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? And it's also. I don't know if this has happened to you much in your business, but I sometimes feel like an idea can be knocking at my doorstep for quite a long time and I can feel quite resistant to it. Or like a little bit like, that seems like a lot, or that seems like a change, or, I don't know if I'm ready, or, you know, over the years the business has had different iterations. It's gone in different directions, but each of those is probably, I've ignored them for six to 12 months and I feel like they've been a bit tapping at the window and I've gone, I don't know, I dunno if I'm supposed to. Have you had anything like that in your business? Yeah, I think it's just that natural that, that the fear sets in a bit, doesn't it? With things like that, you think, oh, is that a natural thing? Is that an opportunity or is it not? Or am I being ridiculous or how do I turn that into an opportunity as well? Yeah. You know, those things kind of play. And looking at the dates, I kind of understand that because I looked at it and if it was October, 2021, my business is only 12 months old, so I would've definitely been thinking like, well, hang on a second. I don't have enough street cred to be telling someone else what to do in their business. I'm still trying to survive the first year of my business. Yeah, yeah. And get through all I know. So you talked about sort of, you were still consulting in the early days, whatever of your business, but you were previously in fashion. Yes. Yeah. So I was a fashion buyer and then, um, a buyer manager and general manager for quite a few large, um. You know, fashion companies here in Australia. So, yeah, so that was what I was doing. And then I've subsequently been consulting with not just fashion companies post that, but with, uh, you know, I was talking to, um, I've helped with a tea company up in Sydney, you know, another, uh, men's fashion company, um, down here in Melbourne. So yeah, quite a few other businesses that just, I think need that kind of structure, um, and how to set up their business in, in that space. So, yeah, I've still, I've actually still been doing the consulting on the side the whole time I've been running my interior business. So it's nice to be able to, you know, dip your toe into what, you know, you know, after a career of doing that for, you know, nearly 20 odd years. It seems a shame to not use, you know, all those skills are transferable, but it's a shame to not use those skills directly to, to help support people as they're, um, growing their businesses as well. I've done that the whole, I'm still doing it now, the whole time, um, along the, along the side of my interiors business. So it's, it's good. That's interesting. And also just being able to like, you know, there's only, I guess I shouldn't say, there's only one time that you have to really set up your operations and processes and standard procedures and all that sort of stuff in a solo entrepreneur journey. Like you, you might kind of tweak it quarterly or like look at it bi-annually, but you, you don't get the opportunity to kind of play in that space over and over. And if you have that skill and that sort of background, it can be quite nice to be able to stretch that and look at different strategies for those industries. Um, and I. It could probably, like, I feel I sort of reflect on it and think it would probably stop me being so entrepreneurial and adding services and doing other things.'cause I feel like if you've got this one arm that's like ticking along, you've got this thing that you're continuing to do and then you set up your services, you're like, well I only actually have space for X, Y, and Z, like this many in this realm. And, and it could possibly stop that feeling of shiny new object that so many of us have that, you know, you get bored of things and you end up adding 1200 new services. I also think it gives you, like for people who aren't, you know, moving from a different career, you've obviously got an experience and a knowledge base there and it's all transferable to your new interiors. Career path and, and you know, your skillset is all movable and workable, but you also have confidence because you were in that old job for a long time. So it's nice to dip back into that, into that role because you know it, you know, I'm sure, you know, you use so much of your role career in your current role now. Yeah. It's, it gives you that little boost of confidence again that you're like, oh yeah, I did that for so long, and I can know that, like the back of my hand. Or I can answer those questions, you know, off, you know, I love that. It's like keeping your own personal, like mojo in your back pocket because it's like you come from, you know, and I had 15, almost 20 years travel and travel management and senior leadership and stuff, and if I'd. Stayed with that, I would've had no problem offering mentorship from day one. Like I would've been like, Hey, I still have this like senior role and position in this company that I've earned over these years. And I would've felt like, well then, you know, I have had these huge epic KPIs and I've had these big boardroom meetings every week and I'm, you know, understand the p and l and I know all these things. So I would've felt very comfortable teaching people to set up the foundations of their business, which is obviously what I do now. But I kind of needed, I went back to reset when I started my new business. It's like, because I did let go of it. So I love that you've kept it.'cause it's like it keeps reminding you that you are continuing to grow your experience and keeps your mojo. So when you are talking about design, like, I don't know, even just early design projects and things that you have on it probably helps your confidence a little bit.'cause you haven't let go of that. Yeah, absolutely. Good to do it. And I, I think I'll continue to do it as well. I enjoy doing it, so it's nice. So yeah, fashion industry and, uh, it's all so intertwined with what we do in interiors and it's all business and it, it's all marketing a, a product or a service or, you know, meeting a customer's needs. And whether that's a client with a new home or you know, somebody who's wanting to launch a new fashion brand, it's all. Yeah. Servicing a need and a desire. It's an interesting crossover, isn't it? Because I have a lot of students who've come from the fashion industry. Yeah. Okay. Hmm. I can think of two immediately who both have designed lingerie in the past and then there's some that, you know, I feel, yeah, it's really interesting. And often I think it really, maybe it's just, if you're creative, you're creative. If you have the eye, you have the eye. But there's specifically those two that I'm thinking of. I'm like, you can just really see their ability to nail the brief. Like to hear a, a client's brief and to sort of pull things together and hit, um, hit all the points, you know, the budgets. So when you're new, it's very easy to be like, yep, heard the brief, and then just go off and like design to a totally different budget or like be like, this is what I've come up with. And they're like, that's great, but who's paying the other$30,000? Like, we don't have that. And so there can be that bit of learning curve and I think, um, yes. That crossover. It's, it's in pattern, it's in color, it's in curation, it's in, you know, high-end editorial and high-end design. Like, it just all kind of feels like it knits together and it, and it sort of is from this very same world. Yeah, absolutely. Self-employment is very different though. Right? Because one thing they've fed back to is that they've been in these big companies and they've had all these expectations. And I always laugh like with self-employment, there is no HR department or there is no IT department or there's no one else coming to rescue you. You're the Swiss Army knife. You do everything from day one and you just kind of get on with it. Um, but there any big mindset shifts that you felt you needed to make in order to, you know, you, you built a personal brand, you just went out there. Like what, what did you sort of have to forget through your head in order to be able to do that? Well, yeah, I think it was probably, you know, the overwhelm can get hard'cause you are then doing everything. It's not like I've got a team of people anymore and I can say, okay, can you look after that section for me? Or we, you know, I need some marketing done, or I'm looking at advertising now, or I'm gonna do this in six months. I think that that layers on top. I think that can create the overwhelm with running your own business. I think that was probably the hardest thing for me to realize that. Okay. It's all on my back and I've gotta organize it and I super organized. Yeah. Yeah. There's no money to employ any department. Even if I sit here and I can recognize what I should or automate or delegate or whatever, it's like, yeah, but who's paying for that? And, and the very beginning there really isn't really, you know, even now I don't have any stuff. They're all imaginary and you don't have stuff. And that can be a decision that is not always financially led, but it's also just one that it's, um, that is like, that overwhelm is real because it is so much responsibility and so much self. What you just put so much pressure on yourself to make it work. You're ambitious. You've gone out, you've signed up for this new kind of adventure and. I dunno about you, but I felt very affected by, I guess people watching like family and friends and like it's a kind of a brave thing to do. And then to feel like anytime it doesn't feel like it's like hitting it out of the park, it feels a bit like it's failing or it's floundering or I don't really know what I'm doing. And I think that's hard in the first couple of years'cause it, there's seasons in business, it's not always going really well. Do you have any tips for what you do in those lower seasons? Like how do you keep yourself, I guess, motivated to show? I know it's hard, it's hard. I think, you know, some, some projects even like you get a real buzz from and they're amazing and brilliant and everything rolls and the clients are fabulous and then other projects can be real struggle and then that, you know, that can. Put you on a little bit of a down trajectory sometimes, and you then you've gotta pick yourself up thinking, oh my God, okay, it's only me and I've now got to do a marketing plan and I've then got to do a social media plan or whatever it might be. So yeah, it's, it's challenging. I've got a couple of really good buddies, one in particular in design Buddy, who I speak to all the time. Um, and I find that really helpful just to have a bit of a download, talk each other up, pat each other on the back for the things that you have done, and then just onto the next job or next project or whatever it might be. So, yeah, it's just, I don't know, don't look backwards, just keep going forward. Having it someone else in the industry as a sounding board is really nice because it is different to a lot of industries. I, I never really get into the narrative that it's like a saturated industry or that design is like a bit of a cliquey kind of industry or anything. I just think, well, that hasn't really been my lived experience. I'm not gonna perpetrate that narrative'cause I feel like everyone's been really helpful and really open and reached out and, you know, it's, it's always been really good. But it can be a competitive market because, you know, people can go out and think, well, I'm gonna get a couple of quotes, or, you know, sometimes our clients don't really understand the value of differentiation and nicheing and why different designers are suited to different projects. Yeah. They're just more. Price conscious or whatever were you, did you find it difficult to, I wouldn't say necessarily find it difficult to niche, but to find your voice in the industry and find your sort of specific differentiation that you can kind of do working in and around Melbourne, like it's not like you're in this like. Small area. There's obviously probably a lot of designers in that. Yes, there are. There are definitely. Um, I think it's kind of evolving as well. I, I won't say, you know, I've, have I nailed it. I don't know. I, I think it evolves you continually reflecting on your work and what you do and then who you view as your competitors in the industry as well. You know, and that changes, everybody takes a different angle or you've got a different slant on your last project and people might perceive that differently or you've got some new services coming out. So I dunno if I've actually really done that. Yeah. Anyway, like I think it just evolves in terms of, it can be pretty organic too. Like I think there's a lot of pressure in the early, like you've gotta. Find a niche, you've gotta be recognizable from space and like every project has to look exactly the same so people know that's your voice. And yeah, I, I hear this argument the other way a lot, which is around like, well, I've been taught to work to my client's brief, so that means that my aesthetic isn't, you know, I'm not gonna come into their house and put my design in there. So I feel like there's almost two different approaches. Some people are very much like, if you want. R Lee Design, you're gonna get that inside of your house, for example. And there's the other approach which is, I work to your brief and your like aesthetic and what you're doing In terms of putting my opinion out there, I don't really have a very strong opinion on that one. I do think that different, like a different approach to nicheing fits different businesses and different designers because yeah, I just don't think there's any point going out in your first year and putting so much pressure to find your, like if you are someone who is going to have a signature style, it's gonna come out of you regardless. No matter how many briefs come to you and what the client wants, you can see those. Designers and how, you know, I'm thinking specifically of someone like Kelly Donaghy from 13 Interiors. Like I know her design really, like if I saw something on Instagram, I would a hundred percent know it's her navy, blue, black, gray. Like I just know her aesthetic and she's built a beautiful business that people go to for that thing. But it's also so fine and so many wonderful, successful designers, um, maybe have a broader kind of niche. So I'm thinking for you things that people might come when they wanna play with color and pattern, or they might be curious about for bespoke joinery or like there, there's other elements that I think people can have and we forget that they kind of organically have become organic synonymous with your brand without being your niche. I, it's always quite earthy, quite modern, quite organic, my work, quite natural, um, materials, but not, you know, black, white neutrals. It's got lots of color and pops in it, but it's um, it like lots of texture. So it's hard to put a kind of, I don't know, and identify that label in a word. Whereas I've probably found the niche side, finding the niche and that client kind of focus has probably been easier for me to go out and say, you know, or, you know, to, to talk about, um, the people that I service necessarily rather than the. You know, the actual aesthetic, I suppose, because I, I have done lots of different styles as well for different clients. Um, and that's good. I love that. That's interesting. You know, it, it is a challenge to, to hit someone's brief and, and interpret their style and, and their. Aesthetics of their home. So, yeah. Yeah, it's a good little problem solving thing, isn't it? I quite like it as well. And I think, you know, you touched on it there, but knowing that ideal client or knowing just like the right people that will be the right fit, that will have the good outcomes on the projects that, you know, that's, that sort of comes with a little bit more experience, but that is equally as important, if not more, to be able to say, well, hang on, I know the people who I get the best results for and I know the people that I'm not really for. And you know, being able to filter that way is, is just as good. Yeah, definitely. And I think I've been quite, you know, there's Al, there's always lots of chit-chat about, oh, red red flag car clients, or, oh, you know, steer Clear or, you know, and I've never really kind of believed that either. Like, obviously there are some people who are a complete pain in the ass, but most people there's a problem with the process or a problem with the journey or the communication or the understanding or the aesthetic. So all of that can be resolved, but they're not necessarily. A red flag. So I try not to write anybody off, is what I'm saying. Yeah. There's ways to work around all of that stuff. I really like that as well, you know, because it does annoy me sometimes seeing so much, you know? Yes, we've all had them, but sometimes personality can come into it. Not everyone's gonna be everyone's best friend, so sometimes like halfway through the project, you're like, this is not what I thought it would be. But that's not about the person being a red flag client. It can be, you know, I'm equally guilty because I'm not, you know, like when, and, and again, exactly what you said. It's a communication issue. Yeah. And then there's so many learnings that I think we fail to do, and we don't do good postmortems on projects and we don't talk. Openly about like, well what is it do you think fell apart? Like is it, was it the communication? Was it like weekly project status reports? Was it updates? Did they just feel like you were, like, you felt resentful'cause you were off working, but they didn't know you were off working, so were you just not proactively communicating with them to let them know where the project was up to like, and so I think if we are really honest and we do those postmortems nearly every single time, you can think, okay, here's, here's an example. Here's a red flag that I get that people talk to me about all the time. And it's the one where you are at home on a Saturday afternoon and your client starts ping you WhatsApp photos of Baals at Globe Wests because she's happened to get in there somehow and she's got ideas, right? Yeah. And it's Sunday boundary number one through WhatsApp boundary number two, it's self shopping when I'm not even up to the furniture part of the project and we're locking in finishes and features. So I'm not thinking about bar stores because I haven't even chosen the bench tops and I don't know. What an element of timber's gonna be in that kitchen, and I don't know what I'm doing. And to me immediately I'm going, okay, well what was in the welcome pack around communication expectations? Yes. Whether or not WhatsApp was appropriate form of communication. What was in that pack around weekends and boundaries around timing? What understanding does that client have around the phases of the project? Like have you actually explained that we lock in the finishes and fixtures in order to make informed decisions about the furniture and therefore we cannot comment on the furniture? And then again, do they actually understand the process in terms of conceptual development, delivery feedback, and then iterations? Or have you sort of said, yep, and then we'll get to the rest? You know, that's not enough for them. Yeah. Because if they think it's being communicated, they're like, I just wanna have a chat about the rest before so I know whether or not. What Benchtops will work, and I think, again, we're talking about a miscommunication that doesn't make that client who's standing in globe West getting excited about the 12 Baals and the leather and whatnot. That doesn't make that client a bad person or like doing the wrong thing. It's really just being, yeah. And you also want, they're excited. That's why they're sending you the picture. They're excited that A, they found something that they, like, they're engaging you, they want your opinion, they value your opinion. So, you know, you don't want to dampen the excitement for the process as well. But, but yeah, it has to be done in the right process, in the right order, enable for us to be successful as designers and for the project to be successful. So yeah, it's just managing that with clients. Yeah. But yeah, I think there's. Space for us to also come back and say, oh, that's, you know, that's my bad. I may not have explained properly that we don't actually do Baals until, you know, I think a lot of the times we don't actually take that responsibility in those conversations where we could,'cause they think that would then give power back to the client to feel heard, understood that they've made, you know, they haven't made a critical mistake in the design process. You know, snapping back that it's Saturday and I'm with my kids and you shouldn't be, Nope, nope, nope, nope. But coming back on the Monday and saying, thanks for all that additional detail, I didn't reply because obviously weekends boundaries my life. But, and then saying, you know, I've popped this into your client file for the period of which we're gonna like review bar stools. And just to remind, we're in the middle of fixtures and finishes and we've got to get those all sorted. And I'm thinking we'll be having this conversation around August. You know, that's so fair. And it resets the boundaries and it's so calm and it, no one's kind of a annoyed, but then you've. I've gotten a second opportunity to explain maybe something that might have been missing in the communication or have you ever seen like any designer proposals? I get, I'm lucky enough, I'm privy enough to see almost everyone's that goes out and sometimes they're like, babe, this is 76 pages.'cause you've got your agreement inside of your welcome back inside of your documentation. Which is fine if you don't know any different, but then you can't be annoyed if someone missed that. Like we weren't up to Baals'cause they didn't read section one B like letter a least Don text me on Saturday. So yeah, no, no. Yeah, I think that's, that's also you want to put, we always want to put more in, don't we? Because we feel like. Sometimes clients don't understand interior design. Mm-hmm. Or the process or, um, the value that we're giving. So I think you often, I've been guilty of that Absolutely. In the past, putting in way too much into a scope of works, like every little item and detail I'm gonna do. But yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't get you anywhere, I don't think in the end. It's just gotta keep it simple, straightforward, understandable. Yeah. Sometimes when we bulk out those scopes, and I'm guilty, like I have a scope definition, like master list that I have, like a link magnet that's just basically like if you want extra things that you can put in, but you have to remember you, you also run the risk of being audited in a way that's like, okay, well when are we doing this part? And you're like, well that's just fluff. Like I kind of just did it. It's just like I don't have anything to show for it because it's like a fancy sentence that says, you know, yeah, that they didn't understand analyzing your lighting, la, la, la, and the floor plan. It's like, well, I saw them, so they've been analyzed. I don't know what you want. Yeah. And you know, people could be expecting a written analysis, like you don't actually know, because that's the thing with that miscommunication, you actually open yourself up for more and more expectations that don't get met because they're just a bit like, well, I, we thought the analysis was like a written report and we're not getting that, so why are we paying? You know, it just becomes a bit yuck, doesn't it? Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Definitely. And if you're listening to this and you do have your service agreement, your contract inside of your welcome pack or whatnot, please do me a favor and just export all that out of there and save it as a totally different document. So people can go to terms and conditions when they need service agreement and conditions. And they can go to welcome pack when they need, like what is the process? And like frequently asked questions.'cause it's, it's a lot. Speaking of like processes and just all the things that we do, how do you think that your approach to pricing has changed over the years? Because it's always such a big question that I feel in the industry. Everyone's like, what's everyone judging and what are they doing? Like, have you felt that your, as your experience has grown, your approach has changed? I think the tracking of my time was the biggest change that I, once I implemented that, that was just a massive eye opener. So anybody who's not doing that should do that a hundred percent. What shocked you the most? I'm gonna change the trajectory of the question, but just'cause I'm exactly the same. What, what were you actually shocked about? The time tracking? Just how along things were taking and how I was not charging for, I was undercharging massively. And that's obviously, you know, there is that nuance in there that you are newer to the industry and learning and you know, investigating and sourcing and finding things as well. So that does always take longer. So yes, projects will take longer, but yeah, once you start tracking your time and then you equate that to, you know, an hourly rate or whatever your weekly monthly earning desires are, then yeah, it's quite, it's quite opening. So I think that's probably my biggest learn track time. And then I, and I'm pretty organized. I kept a, a kind of like a tracker. So every project I had in, whether that was a quote and whether they continue to be a client or not, or, um, I would just keep a tracker of all the prices. So every time, you know, I'd be doing a, um, kitchen, living dining room or I'd be doing a bathroom or something. I would just track all those prices. So then every time I'd just keep putting it up and up and up. But that was really helpful just to be able to reflect back on that. And I included that in part of my kind of like yearly, quarterly review so that I knew, okay, well that's what I was charging. This is what I, now I'm gonna charge for this next financial year, or whatever it might be. That was really helpful. I. Such good advice because they're so data led. There's a little bit of a head in the sand out there, especially sometimes in the early years just around like, you know, it feels like it's this much. And just as you say, it's quite shocking because you actually think because you're having fun, because you love your job. Because it's like I'm just in, like I'm in the zone on sketch up, or I'm in the zone doing this mood board or doing this thing. And I think sometimes we grossly misunderstand again with the misunderstandings, but like how long we've actually been looking for that sideboard and you know, looking at all the different options and plugging them in. And then like when you track it, you kind of go. I can't really afford three and a half hours for the sideboard'cause I've got 26 other things I need to source and times that by three and a half and no one actually wants to pay me that. Like if you, I guess the exercise is, isn't it? Like do the time tracking, apply an hourly rate and then say realistically, would someone pay me this much to do this? If not, can I get better and faster and smarter? Yeah. To do it. I know. Yeah, no, it is a massive eye opener. But even, even, you know, even having done all of that, I think you still get kind of a few wobbles as well. You know, you sometimes you think, God, can I charge that? You know, I think we'll just. Natural human and underestimate sometimes what our value is as well. So I think it's all those ebbs and flows of confidence that you go through when you're running your own business as a small business as well. Yeah. I wouldn't turn around and say, I've got it all down down pat right now either. And it goes the other way too, doesn't it?'cause you're like, sometimes you charge and then there's scope creep and the project just isn't exactly as you sort of thought it was. Or you've kind of feel like you've miscalculated a little or you've kind of gone, oh they're actually, you know, we're not using the red flag word, but they're actually a bit harder than I'd anticipated that you probably should have built in a little buffer to kind of, I didn't realize it'd be this amount of questions as we go and I've, you know, had to realign a few times or change direction. So I think, you know, it comes back to that post-mortem thing again that I was saying, you know, it was quite good you, you talked about quarterly reviews or biannual, like those annual reviews, quarterly reviews, they're so important to businesses and definitely. Is it something that you've just always done because of your old work and what your old slash current work? Because I feel like for many people listening, they're like, they have really good intentions. I think the intentions are there. I think people have, you know, downloaded the notion pages from myself or other mentors or whatever, or they're like, I've, I've got what I kind of need to track data wise, but the actions aren't always there. So the follow through and the actual sitting down quarterly and taking stock of your socials, where are they up to? You know, all this data that's so important. Not just for like if you wanna sell your business or you know, but you can't change what you don't have I across if you don't really understand. Again, it's a vibe, isn't it? It's just like, yeah. Yeah, no, I, yeah, I actually really enjoy that part and always do that monthly. But then I, I, I think that's very natural to me.'cause I would do that weekly, if not daily in know of a fashion, um, buying position. So you'd always be aware of your numbers and your sales and your ingo incoming and outgoing expenses. Yeah, that I'm probably always, um, quite conscious of, of that as well. Um. That feels easy for me, but I understand that that's not the case for other people if they haven't probably been in that type of situation that it's quite horrifying. Probably you not to imagine. Yeah. I feel like it would be quite scary. And I think there's a lot of education in there that I think as a secondary benefit that you don't even understand. But you even spoke to it slightly before when you were talking about like, I've tracked my pricing trajectory and as I've changed and what I've done. But you could be in a home with that same example talking about, you know, kitchen, living dining room, and then you would have very strong ideas around indicative pricing of what a a couple or a family of four would usually spend in that sort of zone. And that's come from data analysis and actually understanding my last 25 projects have. Cost about this much, give or take retail on, on the furniture or, so you've got sort of a bit more informed information, which again builds that mojo in your back pocket. You feel a bit more experienced and a bit more in control when you can say, you know, oh look, we don't talk exacts because I don't know your brief yet, but I can say with the space this big and the sorts of things you're talking about, you know, you could ballpark expect it to be between 20 and 50, for example. Yeah. Or, or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. And I've created, um, a document for myself. I did that a long time ago. Um, around that in particular in terms of, you know, what a, what a room cost would be, what house costs would be, what, you know, different combinations of rooms in houses and, and at different and price points within the market, like your budget, your mid, your high end. So that I think helped me have a lot of confidence when talking to clients to say, Hey, we are looking at doing X, y, Z rooms, so what you should be looking at this price point. Yeah. And I think that gives them confidence in the. You know, in, in you. Um, but also just saying those words out to a client is, you know, gives you confidence in that conversation. Yeah. Confidence is everything with money Chad, isn't it? Because they feel like it's not just presenting your pricing, but sometimes we forget that we are also gonna be responsible for talking about the trade costs and the pricing of like very big invoices that we don't get to keep, but we still have to have the conversations, which are upwards of six figures often. And you're sort of, I think it's something that maybe not all of us expected. I certainly don't feel like I expected when I first came in. Was that something that you had to like, like take a second gulp and realize, well, I don't have to spend the money, I just have to sort of talk about the money culturally. Like something we do a lot of in Australia, like speak about money and ask for money and, and No, no, no. It's not really, I didn't not, I didn't so much have, um, problem with talking about that with clients. It was more the, you know, clients are paying me to procure their items and they're obviously, you know, transferring a quite a large amount of money. For me to be able to do that and to procure everything I found that was the sticky point for me. It was more the trust that they were putting in me with those funds. So I just make sure again, that I communicate all of that process really openly and really clearly so that, you know, they feel confident that they're, you know, and or that there's no scammer going on or anything dodgy going on like that, but they feel really confident that it's been managed and it's been ordered and it's, you know, the confirmations are through, the deliveries are on track, you know, that kind of updating that clients are spending a lot of money, huge amount of money and that, you know, it's very precious. So you've gotta be really careful with managing that. I be careful with that as well. It's, I mean, it's definitely, obviously, especially when you're organized, it's really possible to have the gross, the net, the, you know, the invoice number, that everything's sort of tracked, everything's under control, you know, where it is logistically and when it's expected to be delivered and when you've followed up last and who you're speaking with, and you've kind of got all of this information. But it's interesting to me that I'm seeing more and more graduates specifically coming out of design school, not wanting to touch trade with a barge pole, so, so afraid of the processes of procurement. Yeah. That they'd rather just not offer that in their business. Oh, okay. So I feel like it's different. I feel like five years ago even, it was more like you were, you learned in design school that this is what's possible and these are the three models and this is how you can approach it and. You can pass on all of the trade discount, partially pass it on, keep, like not pass any on. That's for every business owner to decide. I'm not going to give a public opinion about which, what I think about any of those things, but I'm not seeing that as much anymore. So I'm really seeing them come out and go, I think I'm just not gonna do that. I'm gonna provide all the details and get the client to go directly and, mm-hmm. I don't know. I, I work hard to change their mind.'cause I think it's a huge revenue opportunity for designers and we are almost like service providers that work on commission our pay. You know, yes, we get a design fee, but ultimately that part of your revenue often makes up a very large portion of your yearly, um, profitability. And I think it's just crazy when you're doing the work anyway, or you're direct, like you're pulling together the entire ff and e you're, you're providing all of the details. It's really one tiny little step and it's just the fear of maybe the process. Like you've got a good process under control. So, um, yeah, it's an interesting shift because I always used to see people being like, right now let's get trade. Things sorted and now let's do this and move away from that. But they go, there's a little intel. If you're out there and you offer it, it's almost becoming a USP, so you should shout about it that you do all of the, you know, look, they do. It comes down to experience because that's very graduate, so straight out and then we have a good conversation and then they learn about it, and then they learn the process to manage it. Yeah. And learn how to track it. And then slowly I wear them down and then it, it becomes something. It's like, how are you gonna give a turnkey experience? How are you going to give high-end experience and feel like you, you know, you're missing phase three of your entire, you know, you're not actually doing full service design, you're doing two phase design. Like, that's not a cool tagline. Like, I'm a two phase designer and I'll leave you at the end to go shopping and put it together and do the styling. Like, yeah. So it's been, it's been interesting to see that.'cause I. It also, it just ticks that time poor client box as well. Yes. They haven't got the time to be ordering all themselves and they want a service and part of that service is, you know, taking that admin off the off their hands as well as, as much as it is as you know, following up and installing and styling their home when it's finished. So it's, you know, it's all part of the continued service really, that I believe you want to offer. So I can't imagine hiring a designer and then them handing over a PDF and leaving. I feel very much like, I would like, yes, the values in all the selections, all the things, but that you don't get that feeling that you get when you, when someone else puts it together for you and then you end up being able to be like, we love it. Like it looks like amazing, like a magazine, which we couldn't have done ourselves. I feel like that is just such a huge part. And of course it's weird because I'm an e designer. I don't get to do that part of it, so maybe that's why I'm so particularly like enamored with it. I'm like, if I hired a designer, I would want them to put it all together. Yeah. You know, I charge accordingly. So, you know, I, I still order all trade products and things through the business for them so that they can access trade benefit. So I've always done that in the business. It's just that I'm not in the same location. So I obviously can't just go into someone's house that's in Pennsylvania, for example, or I can't go in if I'm, if they're in far North Queensland or whatever. So they have to do some of that themselves. Yeah. Um, and I do a bit half, half and half as well, so, um, yeah, I can't, are you still dealing, so your business has been predominantly, almost dual location, hasn't it? You've been back and forth between the UK and here in Melbourne. Yes. Operating out of the uk what are the challenges and benefits of doing that? Like how has that experience been for you? Yeah, interesting. Actually, after, you know, not living there for so many years, I found it was, I've, I've had to found that my whole kind of supply chain from scratch there, which was, you know, you really work hard in doing that here. And I, I have definitely in the business just really trying to align myself with brands that I want to work with and really building those relationships with those key people at those brands. So then having to do that again in the UK kind of nearly blew my head off at one stage. Well, you go back to square one, you're building a business again from zero. Oh my God. But no, I've had some awesome suppliers, which have been really great. So that's been, yeah, really helpful. And I think the kind of Australian aesthetic is actually really appealing to a UK market. And there's lots of things that I had forgotten about the uk, about how much they love color and love wallpaper and like pattern on pattern and things like that. So that's been, you know, really interesting from a design point of view to be able to be that expressive with those things again. So that's been really great actually. Yeah. And influence your like design style and things too, working through the two different, you know, having that more global approach and thinking about, you know, because I, whenever I think about the UK, I always do go exactly to that. Like maximalism, wallpaper, art on wallpaper. Wallpaper on wallpaper, all the wallpaper, all the patterns, all the moody colors or color in general, like you don't think of a. British interior and think beige or white or plain. You, you always have this sort of sense of comfort and color. I feel like whenever I think of, of British interiors, if you're running both businesses at dual times, you've got, you've got time difference problems. For a start, that's a bit like mixing suppliers, thinking about, oh gosh, no, that's gotta be over there and geotargeting on your computer and stuff. Was there like a bit of a learning curve just to just kind of get that to work? I. Yeah, I didn't have, not, not too many issues that I, um, the time zone thing is challenging, but for me it's like, well, if I want to be, you know, over there, or I want to be here and I want to continue to run my own business, then that's just what I have to do. Like, if I have to be up at 6:00 AM to do, you know, Australia PM afternoon calls or Zoom calls, then that's, that's fine. That's what I have to do. You know, certain times a year it's easier than, than others, but that's, that's fine. I just made that work. I think that was just, you know, I'm more than happy to, to do that. And I didn't find, with the suppliers, it was more, the thing I probably come up with is like, some of the things I found there, I would love to have in a house here. So I'd be like, oh my God, I wish that was here. But anyway, that's, that's how it, how it goes. You just gotta like, work on them and work, wear them down, wear them down till they'll cover shipping or offer like good rates or whatnot. It's an interesting sort of approach. I think it's really nice to hear, and I think it's really important for people to hear that. Like if you want it, just make it work. Like don't like just say yes to stuff and just make it work if you want it. There's a way like, yeah, you might have to get up at six, but now you have a company that runs in both British Almond, an Australian almond is international as, that sounds so fancy, doesn't it? It's like, yeah, because I get up at 6:00 AM from wherever I am. But anything is possible in your business. I think we hold ourselves like get in our own way a lot, or there's a lot of stuff that happens because you're like, well, I couldn't ask for that, or I can't give myself permission to just, you know, we just can't get on a plane. Say, what did you build your business for? Having your own business means you go by your own rules. You can do whatever you wanna do in, in and wherever you wanna do it, as long as you are prepared, you know, there are some little sacrifices or tweaks or things that you might have to do, but it's all possible. Yes, and absolutely that was all work. That was kind of, has been my mindset. It's like, this is, I'm gonna make this work and this is what I want to do, and until a point in time and I it won't, and then that might be so, but yeah, it is been good and I think it's stretched me from a design point of view as well. Uh, you know, having, putting on a different aesthetic hat each, each time, each client. And, you know, houses are very different in the uk. Um, I. And smaller, there's a mo different considerations you have to come up with. It's challenged me probably more from a spatial design point of view. So lots of, you know, different, different ways. But I think it's, it's stretched me, which has been a good thing. Yeah. And how did you find rebuilding? Sort of like networks?'cause I feel like we get a bit of a network out of like design school or wherever you study design. You've sort of got those people. And then you mentioned before having like supportive friends in the industry here. And then I've coached a few girls in the UK who find it like, it's just a big network. It's a big industry and there's a lot of people and a lot, you know, if you're going in new, even just moving here. When we bought our house here three years ago, I was like, oh, I can't make any friends'cause I'm 40. Like, it's really hard, like, I dunno, anyone. And so what was that experience like moving over to the UK and, and starting a business and meeting people? Yeah, I, I've just really done it on a small scale and I've got a little handful of. Um, of people that I know in the industry that I've, I keep in touch with and, you know, we, we catch up on a kind of quarterly kind of catch up dinner and drinks kind of thing, and that's the kind of small network that I've built there. So that's been really nice. Definitely. But everybody, everyone's not quite as open as they are here with, you know, information and conversation. So there's a little bit more people, a little bit more guarded. With all we want to share. I'm not commercially sensitive in the UK that just think maybe you don't need to know. I wonder if that's a cultural thing. You know, those, hes and graces of just feeling like everything's fine, everything is fine. I'm just like, you know, things are going well and like very open wording and open, you know, vagueness to the, where I feel like sometimes you sit down, you drop your bag and you're like, has anyone else had the most hectic q. I'm drowning. It's tumbleweeds. There's no clients. Like I have these conversations just candidly with people I barely know at like design industry events or whatever, whether they kind of follow me or I don't know, like, but sometimes I'm like, whoa, okay, that's a lot. Do you need help? Is this a lifeline situation or Yeah. Yeah, definitely more open. Definitely more open here over here in terms of, you know, yeah, downloading and really getting into Nitty, which is awesome, you know? That's so good. So good. It's really good. I think it's, um, you know, I say this a lot, but I think it's such a wild misconception in this industry that it is like closed down and secretive in, specifically in the Australian industry. I feel like whatever you need to know is just a question away. You just have to find the right person to ask the question. You know, who's open to talking to you? And almost everyone will, you know, get on a phone call if there's someone that you admire, drop into the dms that will jump on a phone call with you if there's a, that's how this relationship started. You DM me, I'm like, would you. Get on a Zoom call with me and talk me through, I can't remember what it was, but like x, Y, and Z parts of the business so that I can strengthen those parts in my business. Like you, you had a game plan, you came to me with the itinerary, like it was just more, will you like dial in and chat to me? And that was great. It made my life easier. It made like your results more targeted, like what you wanted to know. Um, and I think more people could learn from that, that, you know, do reach out, do ask for help and ask, like you can go so much like that's like a slingshot. You don't have to work that out for the next 12 months. You're just like, these are the questions I have. Now I understand exactly how to plug and play them into my business. You can just get rid of all of that research. Yes. Get on with it. In addition to the business challenges that we've talked about, which are pretty common, like pricing and, you know, data analysis and all that sort of stuff. You also faced a personal challenge, um, with a cancer diagnosis during the time that you're running your business. That's not the kind of hashtag pivot or curve ball that we're expecting, you know, or that we're prepared for. I feel like many businesses probably don't, especially solo businesses don't have this sort of strategy in place for like, okay, well, you know, this has just happened to me and this is exactly how I intend to approach it as a solopreneur in the middle of projects and whatnot. What happened to your business at that time? Can you talk me through like, what is the process that you go through to be able to manage? Um, yeah, it was, it was hectic. I had a lot of clients on, um, a lot of clients in the pipeline, and I was, yeah, it was one of my busiest times with a lot of inquiries. Um, so yeah, my. Yeah, it was like the whole world was just, you know, upside down. Um, so what did I do? Um, I, I had a freelancer who was helping me anyway, um, and I just had a chat with her and just said, look, this is happening. You know, I might be having surgery, I might be having chemo. At that point, we didn't kind of know what was going on. Can you do more, can you step in and, and help me with, you know, different areas of the business? Are you available? You know, did you have other clients on at the time, et cetera. Um. Because I didn't actually want to, as much as I probably should put myself first, I didn't want to let down on these people who had already committed to work with me and I didn't want to drop people in the middle of a project either.'cause you know, that's not how I worked professionally. I wouldn't ever want to do that. So yeah, so we just put plan together, worked through how we were gonna deliver those immediate projects, pushed out some timelines, moved some clients along the pipeline and just stuck to that plan and ebbed and flowed as, as my treatment kind of progressed. Yeah, it was challenging, say the least, but yeah, got got through it, thank gosh. And I think that, um, it's also very interesting how much we maybe feel ready to or want to disclose versus how much you kind of, your hands, a bit forced in terms of like what you discussed with your freelancer and what you discussed with people in your projects. Like I imagine you were still getting your own head around that diagnosis and like what that meant health wise for you. Yes, definitely. I haven't. Obviously been in that situation, but I feel like it, it often is something that you wanna keep close and sort of with family and like maybe just get your head around things, but it feels like if you're in the middle of all that stuff, you have your hands forced. Did you have to kind of communicate, did you communicate with your clients that that's what was happening? Did you feel like you wanted to keep that away from them or? I kept it very private, to be honest. Like I'm quite a fairly private person anyway, so I kept it very private and I actually kept it very close in terms of the people who I told like immediate kind of friends and family. Um, a that was so that I could kind of cope with it really. Um, the wider it got that you've then got to answer more questions or you've got to, you know, people's responses are quite varied, let's say. So the wider it gets, the more responses you've got to deal with. You end up having to manage how they're feeling about what you are actually going through. And I'm still dealing with, oh my God, I've got a lump in my breast and I've got to have it removed. And all the challenges and you know, scary thoughts that go through your mind with all of that. So I kept it really, really private. So I didn't tell a few clients I told, but not many clients subsequently now most of them know. But yeah, I kept it, I kept it really quiet and just really wanted to have a bit of a business facade that it was still businesses as usual, you know? Is that helpful for you as well? You know, sometimes if we're holding that facade, we've got like you are holding professionalism. Yeah. Maybe two or three hours a a day. It gives you a reason to not like continuously spiral 20 for the day. Yeah, no, absolutely. That was helpful. That was very helpful for me. Definitely. And to just, you know, dive into work for those hours of the day. Yeah, and forget about everything else, all the chaos of, you know, breast cancer and ho hospital visits and oncology, you know, conversations and all of that stuff. So yeah, it was, it was good to do that. And do you think it shifted, I mean, I think everyone could safely assume that cancer shifts your priorities going forward, but also like your approach to design or business? Like are you more sort of like, I don't know, more, I wouldn't say more prepared, but like if it changes your approach so that you go into things designing your own success differently, for example, or thinking about things in a different way, or maybe not feeling exactly as you were pre-diagnosis in the business side of things, I think it's probably. And it takes a lot, like you go through lots of, hopefully, you know, you never go through it yourself, but, you know, and it's, it, it takes a lot of, there's lots of reiterations of how you feel throughout the process. So at this point, and I'm now kind of two and a half years post-diagnosis, which is brilliant, and I'm all clear and that's fantastic. But right now I feel like okay, I'm just more determined and I'm really like, let's not sweat small stuff. But probably, you know, two years ago, a year and a half ago, I probably wasn't quite in that head space either. So it all kind of evolves as you kind of, I suppose heal from the, from the process and the chemo and the surgery, et cetera. So yeah, it's, but that's probably where I'm at now. It's like, let's just push on with life. Let's just get things going. I'm more determined. Yeah, don't sweat the small shit that's happening and just, you know, get on with what life has for you, you know? So in an exciting way. So. That's pretty where I'm at with that. I think it's such a, such a good lesson for business though, isn't it? Because we can get tangled up. You can spend a half a day bothering about something that's ultimately not moving you forward in any way serving you at all. But you know, you mentioned before about the red flag, like the approach to red flags and I absolutely love that. But I also think there are people who are literally stewing on this like thing that this client is doing to them or doing for them or that isn't happening. And it's actually evident what you just said in the earlier conversations, how much that it's like, look, if it's not important, it's not important. If it isn't, if it's fixable, I can fix it, you know? Or I can approach it from a different angle and just reach out and say, Hey, should we jump on a phone call? Or like, this isn't really a big deal. Whereas, you know, as you mentioned, maybe in those earlier years or, or pre that sort of. That sort of change and that sort of circumstance and, and everything that you've gone through, you probably Yeah, kind of do get stuck in the detail sometimes. And actually just thinking like, all of these things matter so much instead of going like, okay, but like if I had to put them in a column of like matters and doesn't matter, actually 90% of things sit in the doesn't matter column business wise. Um, do you have any advice that you can share for, um, I guess getting through tough times when you're running a business because it's not always health and it's not always you. It can be, um, you know, a, a death in the family. There's all sorts of things that come up and I feel like. We're sometimes not prepared, our businesses aren't ready, and almost everybody in business is gonna have to step away from their business at some point for an extended amount of time, whether they expect you or not. Um, yeah. Do you have any advice on how to sort of move through that and how to approach it? I'm not sure actually. That's okay. Did you, would you do anything differently in terms of preparation? Like, obviously you can't prepare for this kind of stuff, but like Yeah. Do you feel like your business is set up well to be like,'cause you, your action plan was really clever in terms of being able to say, well, I did have someone in place that I could, you know, lean on a little bit and connect with and get to, to step up. But a lot of people don't actually have any kind of freelancers. Yeah. Or don't work with anyone and we're all gonna go through those tough times. Is there any things that you would've prepared a bit differently to be able to sort of create that strategy and, and actually, yeah. Um, probably more of an it kind of like that inquiry process. It was all very much generated, you know, it was all around me. Um, and if that could have been slightly different or I could have rolled the freelancer into that process somehow, or changed that, that would probably alleviate, alleviated a lot of concern, I think, at that time. Mm-hmm. And, and that's probably. Like, that's a difficult one. I've been speaking recently about, um, you know, AI agents can do your onboarding now they can book all of those calendar appointments. They can take the discovery calls if you trust them to do so. And I think trust is a big thing because we're like, well, hang on. I'm going to be the designer on the project, so I sort of need to understand the project and then be able to sell what I can. Like, you kind of feel like you can't offload that to anyone.'cause you, you yeah. You do sort of feel like I I need to be the glue in that so I understand what I've, what expectations I've set, what I've set on that call. Mm-hmm. What's kind of happening. So that's interesting'cause I feel we are now getting to a place where that's something that can become more automated and you can step back from, from a process. But then yeah, we still have that need to control the sales script and sort of be in and around the Yes and the no part, like that decision making I think. Will that ever change? I don't, I. No, I dunno. But that's also, that's also one of the like nice parts as well because it's getting to know your client and it's understanding them and then it's a connection and it's a relationship and you know, when you work in your own business, those things are wonderful. Like that's, it's, you know, it's really nice. There's connections that you have with clients. So yeah, it's that balance of having that with people, but then not having. The overwhelm of that at Yeah. At, you know, tricky times in your life. Yeah, I agree. But I think that there, you know, there are always gonna be you centric parts of your business that you will never sort of off board if you can help it. Yeah. And I imagine if you, you know, in situations like, um, you know, health diagnosis and other things, you can sort of be like, look, let's book them all on the one, you know, the discovery calls. Let's book them all on the one morning and let me just be there for that. And then I can off board with notes what needs to happen. And, you know, someone else could call up and get your, like, fill out the CRM or someone else can do something else that you can kind of, was there a point in, you know, obviously you mentioned chemo and other things. Was there a point where you felt that you just couldn't really show up very much for the business at all? Yeah. Oh yes, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. After surgery and then when I started to have chemo and obviously I lost my hair after the first round of chemo, um, and my eyebrows and my eyelashes. So that is not a pleasant experience. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, that was, yeah, that was a really difficult, difficult time. And speaking of feeling like your hand is forced, that also gives you a, you know, a bit of a visual cue that you have to discuss with some clients that you might not have. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. That was, um, yeah, really, yeah, a challenge. Definitely a challenging time. So, yeah, it's, uh. Don't recommend it to anybody. Just check your boobs. Always check reminder, check your boob all the time. Never too often, is it? No, just get on with that. I'm trying to remember the saying that I heard with, uh, the love your sister team and they're like, it's like group your wife or something along those lines. But it's like constantly about like, everyone just check'em. Doesn't matter who's checking'em. Like your kids are crawling over you all the time. Yep. Anyone who's gonna check, check, because it's so, you know, especially in a female dominated industry, it's such an important message to get out there, to be like, you know, if you're catching up with business friends, if you're chatting to people, like, it's just, it's not, it's, it's not too often spoken about. Like, it's like you can't get enough of it. Yeah. Like a title of the podcast. Like you just check them, get in there, get it sort because you know, the earlier Yeah. That you can detect. Yeah. It was a complete utter surprise. For me, like I had no idea at all. So yeah, it was, and there could be, you know, there'll be other people like me, so you've just gotta be vigilant and breast cancer. Do a, um, I think at the beginning of every month to try and get people to remember like on the first of every month as like a reminder. So yeah, I've just kind of try and reiterate that to people and do that now myself. Just, you know, first every month just print the calendar. Same with, you know, watering your plants one day a week on the same day a week. Just diarize it and just get it done. Love it. I'm gonna add it to the monthly review in the framework because those girls do their monthly, the first of the month we review all the data. This has all been a conversation that's, you know, leading into one thing. It's like same time you look at your socials growing, like that's not the most important your life. It's just as important that you add that to your diary. I think really, really important. And in the spirit of full transparency today, we've been chatting about is there something that you hate about running your own business? This is something I hate. I love the flexibility. Yes. I love the client interaction. I love the design. I like the logistical organizing delivery and the. You know, seeing at the end the final kind of reveal. I think that's probably a bit for me. I'm, as I said, quite private, so I find the social media side of it probably quite challenging. And that was the first thing when I was diagnosed and you know, obviously lots of things just had to slide within the business and social media. Just, you're like, bi Felicia, don't miss you. Yeah. I know so, and I haven't picked it up since. Ask you this though. Do you have a leads problem? No, I don't have a leads problem. So you can give yourself some permission and grace because I'm so tired of people coming to me and saying, I need to do better on social media. I need to do this. And then I look into their business more and I go, why? What more could you, what more capacity do you have? Why do you wanna attract people on Instagram from overseas who are not in Melbourne or in your local area to do a full home renovation in this local area? Your energy can be used local area marketing or Pinterest or something targeted. I get frustrated at how much people put pressure on themselves to excel. Like Excel, what's the word I wanna say? I don't even know what I wanna say. Like be amazing on Instagram because you see other people showing up in certain ways, but their strategy is so different. Like they might be an e designer with an international, you know, they can do mood boards anywhere. So that that might be a good strategy for their media. But then I think we're hard on ourselves about social media in a way that maybe social media taught us to be, but that actually isn't real for business. Yeah, no, I know. And, and then I think now I'm, and it's slid and I haven't done anything for a long time, but now I'm, I've done so many projects now and I've photographed a lot of them, and now I feel like I'm, I've got to do it because I'm, I wanna show everybody what I've been doing, and I feel like I've, the work I've done in the last two and a half years that I stopped doing social media, nobody knows about. Yeah. So I've got to, I've now got to get it out to then get better clients and newer clients and, you know, see what, what new jobs can come my way. So yeah, it's, it's a different need now. Yeah. And that's so great though, that you do have that, and even if you parked the focus, you can still build a Google drive of those beautiful images and get someone else to do it, you know, like you can still be like, here's all of the amazing projects and here's the story of the people and the projects and what happened. And now you go and write it all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's so nice to, it's, it's not full circle. None of us are going anywhere, but you know, we do, we have caught up in dms over the years since that very first time. Yes. And, you know, being in London and then being here and, you know, it's a big, I feel like what it, it might only be three years, but it's. Been big for you both personally and in business and it's something, yes, you definitely celebrate and to like take that time to look back and think, oh gosh, like I was a totally different person in 2021 or, or, or earlier like when starting the business and we don't Yeah. A lot has happened. Yeah. We don't often take that time to sort of go, oh, from this conversation today you can walk away and be like, wow. I really do approach pricing very differently and I really do understand my value and I understand the time it takes and I really get how to manage projects in a way that I probably didn't the first time we spoke about. Or like, um, the way that I'm working with trade accounts and the way that I'm just, the cogs turning in your business. The way that that's happening is year on year. It's always better for anyone starting out listening versus, you know, if you're five years, 10 years, 15 years, it just gets better, doesn't it? It just runs. Yeah, it does more and more smoothly. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. The trajectory is, is fast but rewarding I think in, in a small business. Yeah, it's, it's, it's nice. It, as much as I, I have that question like, what, what do you hate about running it? And when I reflect on it myself, I'm exactly the same. I can list all the things that I really like and then when I try to think, you know, because hate is such a strong word, I don't really, really think it's probably the right word for that. It's like more, you know, what frustrates you most often or what do you kind of like really struggle with at times. And I think sometimes for me, the hardest thing is just being, I wouldn't say the bottleneck, but I would say the top of the tree. You know, like that everything kind of can only escalate up you. And they feel a lot of pressure and responsibility sometimes, especially having a lot of students or having a lot of. People rely on you. You know, I was unwell, like just very minor unwell, like just some low iron laws. Yeah. And just thinking can't dial into this call or I can't do things as can be. I don't have staff but I still feel like I have a lot of people reliant on my energy levels and my Yeah. You know, my sort of, you carry, it's almost like your empathy levels as well'cause you carry all of their stories'cause they're all starting up and they're all emotional and imposter syndrome and it's all quite hard and sometimes I feel like I, it's like Groundhog Day. I kind of relive my hardest year every year with the, with the emerging designers. But then, you know, being able to, but I also strengthen your character.'cause you want them to succeed. Yes. You're invested in them all and you care about them all and you care about their stories. So, you know, definitely. That's why they want you as that coach as well. Yeah. And you get the payoff too because then, you know, I've got girls that are a couple of years out of doing the framework and you see them on international jobs and in print media and Yeah. And like really just taking off and you're like, oh, I remember you face s dialing in. So nervous in that first zoom call. And it's just, it's so lovely to see. It's like little butterflies all the time taking off and they might not look back much, but you're like, oh, it's so good. Um, and I have like, I guess through doing more of the private coaching stuff too, I get to play with like stronger strategy and business owners that have been kind of like the best of both worlds. You've reinvented yourself over the, all these, these years I've known you, you've just, you're always coming up with something new and you are straight to market with it. And no fear, no holding back. Don't, you're so good at doing that. It's amazing. Thank you. I don't, um, I don't abide by the idea that like, first to market is best to market, but I do always say progress over perfection. Like get it out there, get validation, get feedback and iterate. Like if you can get something out, then you're gonna know whether it's worth this extra time. Yeah. Yeah. It could always be an evolution and I don't really. Feel like I'm not a get your ducks in the row kind of girl. I'm like, come on, ducks. We're going out. Like that's it. Like I have ducks. They're not in a row. They're just with me as we go and I'm like, look, I will, you know, dress you guys later. We'll brush your hair, you'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's always sort of been the approach. So yes, I definitely feel like new things are always coming out of the All fringe studio because I just come up with something and it's yes, amazing. Whether it's hair-brained or not, it's getting out there and some people want it. Yeah, some people don't. And I can, again, data, it's just looking at your data and knowing like what was a hit, what was a miss? What ideas, you know. And I don't always think it's the best. Like I've got courses that I've had to retire'cause no one bought them. Or like, you know, things have happened. But I also think it's a good message for people to hear. It's like you can look at someone on Instagram or otherwise and think everything they, you know, everything they touch turns to. Normally what you're seeing is someone who's not afraid of failure. Yeah. Someone who's actually okay to show up and go, oh God, what a waste of my time. Like, I can't believe I even tried to market that. Nobody bought it and I was there going, those are open guys. It's just a thing that happens. And I'm very honest about those. Um, you know, when I do do those reviews, like I've had launches that have been, you know, five figures, multiple five figure launches, and I've had launches that haven't had five people. Like, and it's just, whether it's timing, whether it's, you know, the economy, whether people are ready to invest in themselves, whether it's my messaging, like these are all the lessons you learn after it fails and you kind of go, well, what would the difference between those two? And for me, often it's like. I don't wanna definitely be leaning into like the strategy word or whatever, but it's like, it's often like the lead up time and the focus. So flashing something out five days before you intend to financially ask someone to commit to it and then closing it five days after that, it's like, doesn't work. Never work. Don't think you can do that. No one's audience is that strong that you can just like, they don't have enough time to absorb the message of why it might be a good fit for them. And like people are curious, they wanna kind of. Circle the drain a bit, read a few emails, find out a bit more. So it's building a momentum with these things. And I think sometimes, yeah, that's even services and other things. People put them up on their website, no one inquires, they pull'em back down again. And it's like, well, maybe actively marketing. Yeah. But, okay. Here's a good example of one color consultations. I get new designers often put up color consultations as one of the things. Yeah. And then it doesn't sell and they don't know why. And I was like, did you do an A five flyer about color consultations and put it in all the paint shops in your area? Yeah. Specifically where people need help with colors. Mm. Think about where the person who needs the color consultation goes to. Every Saturday morning they are staring at the wall of Bunnings of color down. You're not soliciting anything. You're allowed to talk to people and give free advice inside Bunnings and your business card. Like you are allowed to think outside the square and think, okay, well, you know, those, the people at the paint shop local to me, if I can build a relationship with them, if I can take donuts and coffee in with them and get 15 minutes of their time, they're the experts. But I can also explain that how, when they're really busy and if they can't, like, I don't know, spiral with someone who's painting a nursery, a particular type of green one morning and they're really busy, that they could hand your cart out and you can do that. Yeah. God, great girl, she could help you. Yeah. And I think that we're very quick to bin things that are otherwise quite good. Like I'm like, it's still wide, get it back out. Just approach it in a different way. And, um, yeah, I definitely think I'm, that is one thing that I don't mind. I, I just can laugh at if something doesn't work. It's not like it would come from experience and you would have this too, Lisa, where it comes from when your ego is completely disconnected to your business. So if something doesn't work, I'm 100%. Okay. That that isn't a meet. Like, it's not a reflection of what I've necessarily, like, it's not my whole personality. I don't go to people over it. Yeah, that's, I can take responsibility for things'cause I can absolutely see sometimes like, oh, you weren't really in it. Like, you look dead behind your eyes, like you're talking about it, but your face has gone on holidays. Like, and I can do that, but I don't feel like if someone doesn't want something, like with the, the um, whole course that I've retired, the message wasn't right and I could not get the message right and I just didn't know how to explain it. And so in the end I said, you know what? I'm just gonna get rid of it. I think I still feel like it was something that people would want. Maybe it was just the wrong market. So it was like a, it was called the Overnight success story or something. I can't remember what it was called. And it was a self-paced business retreat. So I timed it all out, gave all of the, oh, yeah. And it was like you go to a hotel overnight and we do, you know, quarterly reviews, budgets, marketing, you know, and it's guided by little video clips. And then you do the work, and then you watch the video, and then you do the work, and then you leave the next day and you've done your product of planning. But I feel like my audience weren't experienced enough to do that. So I was talking to an emerging audience with a product that's more for someone. Yeah, like at that higher level. Yeah, you've gotta have some self motivation to do to do that. Yeah. And what you need is the peace and quiet Yeah. Component, isn't it really? But yeah, you've gotta be motivated to do that. And in the end of the day, I think that product or that, yeah, that sort of course only suits a certain type of brain and people are like, can you do a retreat? Like, can I just come to the hotel and you just tell me what, yeah. Well that's, and I'm like, okay, well fine. And that's about lessons learned. Like you launched it thinking it was amazing for these busy people. Yeah. Who could plan their own weekend whenever they can get it and they're like, look, I can't do that, but my, you know, my partner doesn't mind if I go to a retreat on the date that it is. Like, that's fine. Yeah, yeah. Let's go and have some fun. Let's do the work. But then can we have a party afterwards or do something afterwards to celebrate it all? So, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Then the breaks. So lovely catching up. Amazing. Alright, thank you. I really hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I enjoyed having it. I am going to put the big reminder at the end of the podcast once again, if you haven't checked your breasts lately, let's get into it. Let's get it done. I think it's love your sister who have the saying, um, that I was trying to find in the episode, which is save a life, grope your wife, obviously, or partner, significant other. Whatever it looks like in your household, let's just get it done. There's no shame, there's no taboo, there's no embarrassment. We are grownups. We need to be able to constantly remind our friends, remind your sisters, remind your aunties remind everyone that you run the next networking thing that you do. It's totally fine to be like, Hey, did you listen to this podcast?'cause I did. And I wanna remind you right now to check your breasts if you haven't and I will leave it there. I will be back with a solo episode next week. I am going to be talking to you about a really, like a really big change that I've made in my business. Specifically for, Q3, and Q4 of 2025, uh, where I'm approaching marketing really differently. I'm exploring some other platforms like substack and TikTok and all other things, and I wanna talk to you about the reasons why I'm doing it. Because I know that sometimes it can help when you are stuck in an Instagram cycle round and round to really assess these decisions for yourself. I hope you're join me then. I cannot wait. Bye for now. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you've found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. Just like you for your daily dose of design business tips, and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at Oleander and Finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www.oleanderandfinch.com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.

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