Markian, maraige and the creative process

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Transcript

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Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio, I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander and Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it. Bare, took time to write down the step-by-step framework, so now you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you can expect real talk with industry friends, community connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now, let's get designing your own success. My guest today on the podcast, I am going to be speaking to Roz Devo McKenzie, who I interviewed, or I was a moderator of a panel that she was on during the design show this year. And her husband, art director Chris McKenzie, and Roz is the design director for Markon, and Chris is the art director for Markon. And I absolutely love the pieces that Mark and design have done for years. I loved getting to know them during the design show, and if you attended that panel, it was a really interesting conversation around sensory and inclusive design. We also mentioned in this conversation, Kelly, who was talking about biohacking and the intersection between. Architecture and infotech and biotech and it was really, really interesting. So he was talking and so was Roz, about how we, I guess, manipulate the spaces that we're in so that we can, uh. Puppeteer, the kind of feeling that people have in commercial design, and I absolutely loved moderating that panel and I love chatting to the guys afterwards, but this was a really interesting conversation. I know you're gonna love it. We, we get right into how Markon was created. We also talk about the dynamics in the relationship, like working as a. Design director and art director with your a husband wife team is really interesting and we break down the creative process. We talked pricing, just everything was on the table. It was one of my favorite chats this year, and I hope that you'll love it as much as I did. Thank you for joining me today. I am really excited to continue our conversation that we started having, probably actually started having on stage at the design show, which is probably not the best way to, to meet someone. I don't know about you. I was quite nervous, but it's like, I, I feel like we didn't get to talk as much as we can today, which is good. It was a pretty busy time, and I think, I think we had a, a reservation or something afterwards. I like, we, we had to run off or, I, I can't remember what the, what the deal was, but yeah, we couldn't really hang around. It's lovely to see you again. Yes. And catch up more relaxed and not on stage with eyeballs looking at us, which I quite enjoy. Ross would probably be the same, like she's happy to be in the studio and just be designing. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm okay. I don't I, I quite like engaging and speaking about design. I feel like in today's sort of oversaturated worlds. We don't have enough intelligent conversations about design. I think we're, we're just, we're just fed all this content instead of actually engaging with it and being able to unpack it, which I really enjoy. Yeah, it's nice, isn't it? And you're right, everything has a 30 to 62nd limit and then we scroll to the next thing. And so how deep can you go in a 32nd clip? And that is a lot of the way that we're consuming. And a lot of the people that I spoke to after the panel discussion that we had were just captivated really. Like they came in thinking it would be one thing, and then the conversation unfolds and gets deeper and deeper. And there are different people with different experiences. I think that they were really pleasantly surprised by the depth of that conversation. And, and the topics, you know, talking about sensory and inclusive design and like looking at things from a different lens through a different lens or from a different perspective and going a bit deeper, but I'm gonna take us all the way back because we didn't start here surely. And part of what makes. My podcast, I think, um, you know, appealing to everyone is hearing everybody's business journey and hearing why they took the leap, how it all eventuated and how you got where you are. So do you wanna take us back and give us a little history lesson? Okay. I think, I think it starts at DAD Christians Party 2017. Well, so that's not really when the business started, that's when you and I met. Yeah. But I think the first business that we started was a graphic design agency, and that was probably six months after we met. Yeah. You were in a dead end job and you were making someone else millions. And I was like, what the hell is this nonsense? We need to sort start, you need to start making your own money. And it was just, yeah, it was, it was at a time where, where Chris was really being undervalued in the job that he was doing, and we did the honorable thing. We, we went to his employer and said, Hey, you know, the value that Chris is offering is a lot more than what his salary is. Would you come to the party? And at this stage, Chris had, um, some great offers from other places and they just wouldn't come to the party. Chris was like, okay, well I'm going then. And yeah, I think it was like one of the first times that you really just believed in yourself and they Yeah. Believed in yourself and actually, you know, took yourself seriously enough to know that you were worth more than what you were being given. I still remember a best friend, he'd been saying it for five years, and when I did it, he was like, alright, I'm taking you out to dinner because you actually listened Zippy. I love that. I love that you followed through, because if you are walking into that senior leadership and you're making that thread or you're, you know, you're, you're sort of going in and you're saying it's time that you recognize the value, it's time that you do. It's so easy for people to go, okay, sorry. Don't bother about me, and just walk back out and shut the door. I love that. If, if they cannot or will not come to the party that you did do that and you did back yourself and, and make that move.'cause it's so essential to your own self-worth as much as it is to them learning how to value their future employees. Yeah, no, I think it's, I was very proud of him when he did that. But then again, I mean, my context is very much, yeah, I'm, I'm South African by birth, so, but I've, I've lived in a couple of countries and the entrepreneurial spirit that South Africans have in general means that stepping out on your own isn't a very scary thing. It's just like, well, if someone's not paying, you probably just start your own thing. Whereas I feel like that's not necessarily the case for everybody else in the world. So I feel like in hindsight, I probably thought that what Chris was doing was an easy thing, but for him it was actually quite a big thing to have to do. And it's only sort of now having been together for a far longer period of time that I've realized that. And so, yes, in hindsight, super proud of the decision that he made. At that stage, I had only lived in the country for what, a year and a half? Yeah. Yeah. So I, I moved from Dubai and I was actually still finalizing my design degree. I didn't start off in design. I started off in York. I was a lawyer for a little bit. My father was an attorney, and so therefore I'm the eldest daughter, so therefore follow in the footsteps. And I, I learned a lot from it, and I'm pretty good at it, but it just wasn't my passion at all. The, yeah, the grayness of it was something that I. Found very disturbing. I, I quite like justice and the law is definitely not justice. Um, and especially the type of law that I was doing, which was commercial. So yeah, it's, it's, it's very much about who you can make the most money for, which is fair enough, but it wasn't. Yeah. And so, yeah, so jumped over, then did another couple of degrees in language really love language as well. And then from there was like, okay, I've, I've always wanted to do design, so lemme jump in and do design. And because of all of my previous degrees, a lot of, I, I didn't have to do a full degree. But jumped straight into it. And when I met Chris, I was finalizing that degree and I had actually joined the group that Chris was with. I dunno if you know Sands and Jane Street, they are a furniture, but they also do do interior designs. And so I joined their team to take on sort of the role of managing that as well as doing science thing. And then when Chris decided to leave that group, I was like, okay, well this is awkward. I'm not, I can't stay here because now he's gone. This is weird. So, so, I left two, I then worked for Conrad Gar for a little while and during COVID actually was when we were reached out to, I mean, and during this time, Chris and I were super involved with the Design Institute of Australia. So I was state chair for the Design Institute. Do not ask me from when to win. It's not a resume, I won't hold you to it. And it was during that time that, so the, the exposure that you get through being part of something like the Design Institute is amazing. And it is for the most part, a really, really inclusive community and can be super uplifting. And if you, it's sort of, it's almost like anything, right? Like you're, you're gonna get as much as you give. And so the more you're involved, the more you get out of it. It was through the DIA that I was actually hosting an zoom, a zoom class to teach everybody how to use Zoom. When COVID just hit at that stage, everybody had to sort of pivot from doing, you know, face-to-face meetings to doing online teaching. And at that stage I, I was really well versed in Zoom because I'd have to be using it for all of the stuff that I was busy with and I was then able to do like a nationwide, okay guys, this is how we use Zoom. How funny. Class. And it was actually so much fun because you had designers who are brilliant designers in their sixties and they're just like, what the hell? Like now click what? So funny. And then others that just immediately cottoned on and, and got it. And then in the end it was lovely because everybody was enjoying it through the DIA. Um, and through sort of the exposure with being part of the DIA we then had people reach out to us. So these are still our business partners, Andrew and Justin Barrett. Um, and they own a fit up company. And during COVID, yeah, they were getting job keeper. So they had a factory of men, 70 odd guys with nothing to do because COVID. So there was nothing happening in the retail game. They weren't allowed to be out and about. And so, they reached out to us. They're like, Hey, we're looking for designers to prototype furniture with, to maybe enter competitions and to start something with. And so we brought them four or five. So like, I went along and then we brought five other designers with us and to sort of see what we could do. So we initially, we thought it would be fun to do it as like a conglomerate. The other designers sort of fell away and for normal reasons, I think it was, I think COVID made it really hard for some people. Yeah, some people had babies and then, and so we, they reached out to us. We brought them a whole bunch of designers and we were the only ones that stuck really. Then we went through a really very, very, very, very, very fast prototyping time. Because there's nothing else happening, I guess, as well. Like they're able to just go in there and be like, okay, well, we'll do, instead of things being stuck in the production line and like, we know probably now it's not like that you could not get something to market so quickly. No, no, you couldn't. So we were able to develop the range and bring the range to market within a space of like three or four months. Wow. And now we're, now we're talking, 24 different products. Like this is not, this is not just like one or two products, a whole range of products. And so, and then at that stage we're like, okay, we've got all these products. What are we gonna do with all these products now? And there were no competitions to enter at that stage because. COVID. We, we sat down with them and we were like, well, we may as well start a brand and open a open a furniture store. Why not? And then that's what we did. So my father's name is Mark, and our business partner's father's name is Ian. And so we put together Mark and Ian, and that's where you get the brand name from. So Ian I was having tea one morning and because I love language, I was thinking like it would be really fun to create our own adjective. And so, how you create an adjective is it generally has like a suffix font and that sox can be, IN can be something like that. And so when I started to look through that it made sense to me. So the intent behind the word was for it firstly to be an adjective, but then it was lovely that we were able to actually join the two views together. So for us as a made up word, it actually means to be subtle but bold at the same time. And so that was, that was the creation of the brand name and it basically went gum ho from there. So. We created the brand name and then we went all out with it. And, uh, and to exhibit it, no vacancy. Then at that time, design show was called Denair. And yeah, just went around exhibiting. Then all the magazines, the normal thing where they jump on the new, yeah, the new, the new shiny thing, like let us interview you and do the thing. And then, and then we launched a showroom as well in Brisbane, which was, it was lovely to have a space and to be able to activate that space, especially during COVID because there was so few people activating it. It ended up becoming quite a community hub. Um, so we would have jazz knights and we would have the product showcases. We even launched another thing that we're a part of, which is called Assemble Brisbane, where we were hosting an event with the A i A, the DIA and the. Landscape. Yeah. And the planets. So all the ias were in the showroom for a morning event with Chris Brown, who is the director of the Chicago Architecture Biennale. And he was just having this really interesting engagement with the panel. And the discussion was around the parallels between Chicago and Brisbane, just in terms of, of both of them being quite young cities, both of them being cities that actually require quite a lot of urban renewal and how Chicago's getting that right. And Brisbane is to a degree, but not hundred percent. And then from that meeting we decided, okay, a lot of the, the reasoning why there's not really congruent urban renewal is because we have a bit of a disjoint with the siloing that happens between architecture, design and art. And they sort of try to stick to each other. They, they don't really inter mesh very, very well. Um, and when they do, you can tell. And when they don't, you can tell as well. And so, uh, the intention behind Assemble Brickman was to actually bring together the architecture, design, and art communities and to just create a bit more synchronicity between those three industries and to see what we can do together. Yeah. So that was just Ian basically was doing really, really, really well at that stage. The furniture, interestingly enough, because it's made, I'm sure the price point of it is really, really high as you could imagine. And the furniture was very popular and made to order, which meant that it was sustainable for us from a production point of view. But it was just becoming more and more and more and more cost prohibitive. And so to be able to make it at all palatable to customers, we, we were basically cutting down to the point where there was zero profit in, in us making what it's, we were making. And, and that's. I was sad, was really very, very sad for us because it meant that we either needed to take the manufacturing offshore to be able to make it viable from a business perspective. Or we needed to basically have someone invest in the manufacturing so that we could keep going at the rate that we were going at. And so the decision was made that we were gonna pivot the business as a whole and start to look more at projects rather than just the product itself. Because at that stage we'd been, we'd worked on everything. So we had the rug range, we had the furniture range. We also had a small object range as well. So we have VAs and oil burners and like we, we have our own fragrance, like everything. And. We had, and we had some soft furnishings and all of that stuff too, the very large range of stuff. And so we decided, okay, we still wanna keep doing product, but the way that we do product has to change. And yeah, when we started looking at that business model and saying, what's profitable, what's, what's not profitable, was when we design and work with a partner, it's profitable because they have, have an expertise that we don't. And that's where the rugs. Huge successful because working with Tread Fed and the Gibbons group, it was, it was like, that's their niche. Like they know how to manufacture on scale. They've got the capabilities and for us to come alongside them and just design a range every, two or three years, it works for them. And that's where the business kind of pivoted. And then at the same time, people kept coming in saying that they loved the furniture, but they wanted us to work on like a project saying like, can you bring this same style into a commercial interiors? Yeah. And was it always commercial from the get go? Like, you know, you often you see, does that. I'm still blown away that you even said yes to beginning this sort of thing in the middle of a pandemic because as we talked about risk and risk adverse earlier culturally in Australia, there wasn't a lot of people saying we should open a storefront, or we should do something and invest in something business wise because they think a lot of people were really just trying to hold onto the businesses that we had. Or, yes, of course there was pivots and there was changes afoot, but I think people almost became more reserved. And so obviously by taking that opportunity it sets you apart.'cause it's one of the very rare kind of new things in the industry or in business happening during COVID. Everyone else was just like, can we survive it? You know, we're all on the door with the Titanic waiting for what's gonna happen. And I just love the idea that someone went, no one else is in our way, so let's make a whole bunch of stuff or put it through production and then like take it to the next level. And, but yeah, with commercial stuff. Like people are asking you to put the furniture in. Is it because the, the style of the designs are more suitable to large scale or commercial spaces? Or was it just the opportunities that seem to happen first? I think, because I'm a commercial interior designer, I, I don't like residential design. Um, I can do residential design and we do do residential design. Don't, don't get me wrong, but I, for me, I get such a kick out of, and this is where our businesses work really well, the three businesses work really well together, is I really love the intersection of bringing a brand into a space and having a space, then influence a brand as well, like what Cully was referring to in terms of enviro hacking. I think that we're able to do that with interior design. We can actually enhance, or we can devalue a brand and so for me, I just get such a kick out of it, like designing a beautiful home is so much fun. But it is you're designing for someone's personality. You're not necessarily designing toward a brief and an outcome. And I feel like the only measurement that you have in residential design is whether someone loves the space. Whereas with branding and with commercial environments and retail environments, your ability to measure the success of design is just so much more, right? So you can see, right? So pre renovation, post renovation, these are all the markers that we're looking at to sort of see whether the design has actually given you a return on investment. And so for me, it wasn't necessarily that we want, we were wanting to design furniture that was for the residential market or for the commercial market. But I had always, because I was a commercial designer, wanted for it to be something that was picked up by commercial space as rather, because our pieces are really quite striking. It would be a very particular home. We've, some of our pieces are in celebrity homes, but they are very much like the centerpiece of that space. Yeah. They're more of a piece of artwork. Yeah. And so I think. For us, the intention behind the pieces was to design beautiful pieces that could be enjoyed most of the time, probably more in a hospitality environment where it's a hotel lobby or it's a stunning product dining room or something like that. Like that was, that was more the intention behind the furniture. But what we found, and this is why we pivoted to projects, was that people were coming to us and they were saying, I love the design, but can we do this? Can we do this? Can we do that? Can we do this? Can we tweak it? Can we do that? And I was like, yeah, sure. We can do whatever you want. Like, I'm not precious about the designs. It was just found that the majority of the time people were coming to us more because of our ability to be able to adapt while still having something that was cutting edge rather than just having something that was cutting edge. You know, it, I think it was more if I'm gonna have to wait 12 weeks for a product, I may as well wait 12 weeks for a product that I had a part in bringing to life or a part in, creating in somewhere.'cause it's made to order. You know, there are a lot of places and, and just as you say, being precious about the design, but there is so much that's just like, that is what it is. You can order it. There's no, like materiality changes, there's nothing you can do. Whereas when I think you open up to the shared experience of design and you're actually working with someone, perhaps it is just that they want to make the the, the footprint of the console larger or, you know, they, you are able to give them advice about whether that would work and, and go back and forth. I think it's so much nicer that you've got almost individual customized pieces living around the world in different spaces than just doubling down, putting your foot down and saying down. It's what we did and what we did. Only, I feel like, I dunno. Yeah, I'm, I'm genu, I'm genuinely not precious about the designs. Also, I think for me, and I'm sure a lot of designers feel the same way I created. I created the, the, the scallop design in 2017 was when that Yeah, 2017. Yeah. So I, I was in a competition in Spain with this design that then started our first range or the initial intent behind it. So I was using scallops in 2017. So by the time we launched our scallop range in 2020, it was still ahead of, see now. Saturation. And so to me it's, it's like, although our pieces are absolutely stunning and the workmanship in them is insane you cannot beat it on quality. Like if you actually touch and feel the product it's bonkers. Like you cannot compare it to what it's, that you see out there as well. I also would not take, where I don't compromise is if I've decided that a shape needs to be a particular shape, I'm not gonna back down. I'm not gonna be like, oh, because it's easier, I'm gonna change the shape. No, I don't care if it's harder, do it. And so a lot of the scalloping that you see out there isn't actually a true half circle. It's actually more of a curve than it actually is an actual, proper measured, an 80 degree semicircle. I mean, the factory hated me. They were like, this woman is crazy. They always do though. Designer versus a. Practicality. People that actually are like, what are you saying? And it, it has to just be a tried and tested synergy. Like you have to go over and over and if you're advocating for your design or for your homeowner or or for what or for a particular project, whatever you're doing, that's part of our job. And I think that's what makes it come together because we don't back down and we will die on that hill and we will not be told. But like if you can't do it, someone can do it. Like I will find, it's the tenacity in design and protection of design that I think is so important because if we all back down the world would be a much uglier place because the practical people in this world are likely to be like one, like shoot your shot once and done. If I can't do it the first time, it's impossible. Whereas it's actually more of a working through different kinds of results, I think until we can get what you want. Yeah. No. I conquer. I would say that's very much, very much me and the things that I will die on a hill for. I've died on heels for very, very, very interesting things. I remember when we were busy installing the showroom at Macon, I wanted a particular toilet and I wanted particular taps. These taps were like$4,000 a tap. So my business partners, and I think the toilet was also like$3,000 or something. It was a ridiculously expensive toilet for whatever reason. Um, I think it was the same color as the paint. Yeah. I think they could, they could make the cel the same. And I was, I need, this is the toilet. And so in the end, my business house were like, no, rose, no, it's not happening. You're just gonna get a normal toilet. So angry. But it's okay. In the next project, I gotta to specify it. So I was like, yeah, I'm gonna use my toilet. Um, no, it, it's, it's okay. We were talking about toilets. This is hilarious. They're stunning. Tell me a bit about working together, because partnerships in general when you just, um, are opening businesses, like you've got multiple, you've got other business partners as well, but then also being in a relationship partnership and business partnership must be tough. Like you spend a lot of time together, lots of hills to die on both of your sides, I'm sure. Were you hesitant in making that decision or it just organically unfolded and then It's been fine? I think it naturally worked in the beginning. I think it helps that we. We do different things. So we always, when people are like, okay, so you're designers, and so then they wanna know more and what we generally will say to them is, Chris does everything 2D and I do everything 3D. And so we sort of, that's our divide. And so it's good that we're able to sort of stick to our lanes because there are things when it comes to designing presentations and the website and stuff that I know it's important. But yeah, I've moved on. I'm already at the other end, like I'm already working in this reality that's got nothing to do with slowing down and explaining it to the project to me. I know, whereas Chris, that's. We need it because without that, I can't do what I need to do. And I'm not as I'm not as, she's harder to articulate and that was just a perfect evidence. She's like, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. Chris jumps in and says articulation. So Chris is, Chris is really good at, at helping to bring what is 3D and I'm quite wordy, whereas Chris is quite visual. And so that, that I think is a really good, so we've, we've both got strengths and weaknesses. What that looks like on a day to day, there are probably as many fights as what there are not. Our staff will tell you that we can both be quite fiery. Um, and that it's not fun when we are obviously when one of us dig in Yeah. One of, when one of us dig in, it's like, yeah, we're, we're both equally stuck. And then the other, the staff will say, Hey, I think you should heal on that. Just go and talk like. Talk about it, work it out. Me too. And it's generally, it's generally not huge things. It's generally small things. Um, for me, I won't, I won't move on a design principle over like, I'm like, no, that's not within the grid. Like it's not, it doesn't work because I can't, can't, I need the picture bigger or I need it to scale so that it makes sense with the rest of the images. It's generally something really quite small. But I mean, when we clash, we clash working together, living together. I think it really helps that we are best friends and I know it's not normal for us. A lot of people, even psychiatrists are like, this is very interesting. But people have, I mean, people have restaurants and then they go home and you know, family run businesses exist. You know, family is also a partnership and you have that same sense of love and respect for each other, and you see that work as a dynamic all over the world all of the time. I think it just, I love that there's reality there that, yep, it's fiery at times and it's this and it's that. How do you find leaving? Like do you discuss work a lot in the home setting, or are you quite good at Yeah, you do. He, I mean, rose is better at saying no. Yeah. He would literally not stop. Like he would just wake you up at 2:00 AM with another idea and you're like, oh my gosh, he'll, he'll be watching the football, but he'll be doing something else for business model. He's doing that as well. So I mean, I think. We've gotten a lot better in terms of work life balance. I don't think in the beginning we were pretty good at it. I also think that during COVID, it was such an interesting time, right? It was almost like this like bubble, because you were able to be far more productive than what you normally were because there weren't the usual sort of social, there's no distractions. And the social distractions. And the social obligations, right? That, that we had previously. I think it was like this jumpstart basically for us. And I think that within that bubble, the tensions and the stuff that happened were quite, it was very good at sort of forging in us a really good foundation as to sort of how we, how we go forward. And there was trial and error. There was a lot of trial and error. So there was times where there were things like, for example, in our home life, I'm the one that manages all of our finance. And in the beginning, good couple, were like, okay, you do 50% of it and I'll do 50% of it and equals your freaking disaster because I'm too loose. He's way too, you've gotta lean on like lean into your strengths though. You talked about those like yin and yang, that strength of weaknesses. What is the point in pushing it so that you can say, oh, we have equal, even Stevens, everything is equal. For, no. If I take something that I'm better at, then I don't do that other thing. And you are better at it. That's the equality. Like, I don't wanna give you half of, I, I don't want my husband to mow the back lawn and I mow the front lawn. Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. I'm like, just get it all done. But like, that's a good example. Like when Ro will say, Hey, this is the budget and this is what I need. I'm like, oh, okay. I'll go I call it killing. So like, all right, who can I go kill? Like what jobs can I close? What don't say killing. Yeah. But like, that's the way, just for everyone listening, killing does not actually mean killing people. Yeah. Like hunting. So like, what work can I hunt? Where can I go find the work? And I, I get an enjoyment of finding and hunting the work. Yeah. So I think I, I completely agree with you and I think that it's. It's actually discovering what strengths and weaknesses that you guys have and then leaning into that. Although culturally it's really interesting'cause a lot of people think that South African and Australian culture is very similar and there are, there are like, they're like moral things and there's family dynamics and stuff like that. That's very, very similar. But in South Africa, I grew up in Anan environment as well. French Africans environment, which is even worse. And there are very particular things in terms of your binary gender thinking that men do and that women do in that context. And so for me, going from,'cause we, we got to know each other. We were dating, we started the businesses together, got engaged, got married throughout this whole process as well. We're also actually getting to know each other. And so, you know, there was, there was this period where I was like, what is wrong with him? Like, why is the car dirty? What is wrong with the car? The car. So it's dirty, it needs to be cleaned. And he just doesn't. And I was raised in an environment where any maintenance that needs to happen, cars are full, the cars are clean, the cars are maintained, the cars go for services. I don't have to think about it. That's a man's responsibility. Um, and it just wasn't his, he just doesn't see it. I think what she learned during that period is like. When I'm overwhelmed and it might be created overwhelm, so I've got too many things. Mm. And then she started building structure around me. So like helping me find a program that could solve that thing. The mess got outta my head and then I'm like, I've got time. The car needs to be done. Yeah. And that's why searching for those solutions, searching for software, searching for support, you know, AI tools that are coming in. All sorts of things that can really, yeah, support creative creatives to be creative. Like I think that is a such a great point because it is, there is overwhelm. We are, there are so many ideas living in a brain that's also just a functioning brain. You know, we've gotta do the domestic, the regular stuff, but that all gets pushed down'cause it's nowhere near as fun as the ideas. And so you do sort of need that filter and somewhere that you can put them out and get them out of your head quickly and then move on to the next. I think a lot of, a lot of the stuff that we go through I would say is, is not unique in any way. I think it's stuff that most couples go through. You know, women, we generally like to have spaces that are need to tidy and that sort of thing, whereas men don't really see it, it doesn't affect their stress receptors as much as what it affects our, and so I think that was also something that we actually needed to reach a point of equilibrium in, in our relationship as to how we manage that. Right. And that's, just as a point of encouragement to anybody who's going through it at the moment, that just takes time and it takes good communication. I'm gonna take out the word good. It takes communication. Even if the communication is bad, just communicate All messy. All messy. Yeah. Or even if the communication is messy. But don't stop communicating just because you don't feel that you're necessarily good at it. It's such a good point about the like clutter and things because I think women see it as a to-do list. Like when I see a whole bunch of things, they're things that they call my name. Like if I sit down, my husband would love to have books all in the library and things, but to me, sitting down and seeing them all in the library is like all the different books I haven't read today or I didn't do today. So I see that as anxiety ridden to-do list and he sees us as books. Like he just sees background noise and I see it as like guilt. I almost like the language of that translates to me as things that I haven't done, I didn't have time for, and that I failed today. And so it's really, we, I've had to have that conversation with my husband too.'cause I was like, can we just put doors on the front of those shelving and then your books are still there because they don't affect you, but now they're not my list because I just see the, the doors. And so we were able to make that kind of compromise. But it's interesting to me that that is very true. That our Yeah. Environments, you know, whenever obviously because you specialize in looking at sensory environment or how environments affect us in the sensory world and, and that sort of thing that it's happens even at home is nice to hear. It's not just like, oh, every, I've got everything sorted. But I think, again, it takes time. It's something which just because it's important to us doesn't necessarily mean it's something that someone else understands. Right. And I feel like because we, we live vicariously through these screens, the majority of the time it's a double-edged sword because I feel like there is a lot more awareness around what. Overload, what mental overload looks like for women. And I think that what social media has done is it's given us language to be able to describe it and to explain it. Whereas I also feel like because it's explained it to us, now that we understand it, that doesn't necessarily mean that you've done anything about it. Right? So just knowing about it is one thing, and that's, that's step one. But step two is actually going to the point where you communicate that in a way that your partner, whichever partner is actually able to understand that this is something that needs to be addressed and that you need to find a way through it. Uh, I, I know when Rosa's creative, she needs quiet. And at most it might be like a little bit of jazz in the background. That one I'm creative. It's rock music. It's rock music. Level 40. You can hear it so loud. Yeah, so loud. So you're not creative together. Then in the same space. My person, he has his office because we cannot office together. Yeah. And like when, like you talk about the book thing, like when I'm, I'm busy, like I'll have 10, 15 books on my table looking in inspiration and I'm drawing from it and I'm, I can get messy when I design. Yeah. You get, you better, you tidy back up and I'm like, I'll leave those books open until that thing's finished. If I'm creating a brand, I'm like, I'm drawing inspiration from that. And I'm not closing that book until it's done. It's part of the, it's part of it. We're all together until this one is handed off and finished. Yeah. It's like a piece of pellet. No, I feel like a lot of what Chris, I think,'cause Chris's background is actually art. That's how he started. So he's actually a fine artist and so his abilities are quite white in, in that regard as well. So he's able to go from creating physical artwork to creating brands. And in a day he may have to do that. So the type of space that we need ends up being quite ambidextrous, right? Because he needs to go from being able to have a messy art space into then going into a very clean environment with the computers and that sort of thing, so that there's sort of thing affecting. So it also depends on person to person what, how your space is set up to be able to make you as productive as you possibly can be. But yes, we do not have one office. We have had offices together in the past and it has caused so many parts because we actually. We work well together on Chris, but we don't work well together in the same space. Or you don't, because you've got different creative processes. And so how can you can't have one space. And, because I think sometimes we're almost over aware of spatial and design requirements as designers, so every person to be like, oh, we'll just make this space twice as big and put your easel over there. And like, they would just think about it very laterally or very simply. Whereas, because we are so exposed and specifically, rods thinking about the sensory experience and thinking about what you, you're aware and you're considering all of those things where the average person would just be like, fine. You get in that corner. You get in that corner and don't face each other. But it's not like that at all because you're, you're actually, considering so much more than that in terms of your needs to support those creative processes being so polar opposite. It was also a period where we were working from home and that was a disaster. That was the worst, wasn't it? For everyone. This, it was horrible because, we've got a separate space where Chris was able to set up, but again, because you were just in the same space the whole time, I was constantly like, oh my God, there's a load of laundry that has to be done and the kitchen floor is dirty. And Chris was like, stop looking at that. We need to. It was probably the best decision that we made when we didn't work from home anymore and we, we separated. Yeah, I built my husband, built me this studio in our backyard and I have three young children and it is absolutely the best thing that ever happened to my business because there is a basket of washing, waiting to be folded of school uniforms and sports clothes and whatnot in my living room right now, which I would not have been able to have this podcast record or do anything until it was done previously. But actually it's not my responsibility anymore that it's my husband's.'cause we both started work at nine o'clock and we're in our offices and when we get home, someone will fold the washing and I will. I don't carry it in a different space. So I think it is for anyone listening who's still working at the dinner table, who's still working in a like standard office study in the house, it is absolutely worth considering even just a co-op space or a hub or getting out and about one or two days a week because your productivity and your v like validation, there's so much to it that just shifts when you take it really seriously and you move it out of the homes scape. Yeah, no, definitely. I think it also has helped us to have that line between when work starts and work stops less so forny, but I think that's just, that's probably personality as well, isn't it? Because you just wanna do it and like keep going and Yeah, I mean we're, we're both un, we're both unbelievably passionate about what we're doing, but I feel like he externally processes, whereas I internally process, so even though I may not be outwardly speaking about a project, it is mulling I am, whatever it is I'm engaging with, I'm. Filtering the project through that lens. I, I, I find that a very, it's, I, it's, it's more of a, an intuitive way to approach a project than what it's his is where his very much I make through the mess. So she needs to, yeah, like I keep making, I keep making, I keep making it keep making and then I'm like, okay, there's a good part. There's a good part there. Okay, now I've seen the pattern. Let's pull it all together. But it's a constant making, like, I think my process is much closer to Ross's. I find that the, the whole project becomes my personality. All of a sudden, I'm dressing in the color palette consciously, or I'm thinking about it, it's mulling over, another layer unfolds at 4:10 AM and I suddenly like, and I can just absorb it. And when I'm ready, I put it to paper. The whole thing's already ready to come out. And I love hearing about, you know, your Way, Chris, because it is so almost trial and test and work your way to it or find your way to it. It's interesting because when we work together on project, because we often do have projects where, a client has got both branding as well as space. It's interesting how we can actually feed off of each other's processes, where when he's got his own stuff and I've got my own stuff, like I, I feel like we're stronger for the difference in how it is that we operate. Not necessarily even when I'm working with other designers, like, I'm like, gimme your palette. Show me the textures. I'm like, I do not wanna start a canvas or just even a brand without knowing and touching all the materials. And I'm like, can I live with the materials for a week? Because that like feeds me where there's been other times where I just get a brief and I'm is that a brown, is that a like red? I wanna touch that material. You have to, yeah. Go source it out yourself. Go pull it all together like a bird until you can get your nest around you. I love it. Now did I see that there's Cape Town coming soon? Did I see that? Are, are we working on something there? Because I'm very excited about that because it's just the most beautiful city and how's that going? How's that all unfolding? Sounds where I come from. So that's where I was born and raised. So we, well Chris's I, it's called Chris's. Both businesses are our businesses, but it's more his business because it's his expertise for unlimited agency. We're actually opening up a Cape Town office. So, um, that's so that we're able to run a 24 hour clock. That's the main reason why, because there a time difference. Our team in Australia is able to hand over to the Cape Town team and then they can keep going with the same project for us, and then they hand back over to us. And so it's, it's fundamentally a productivity thing. And then to start off with, yeah. And then from there we'll see where the marketing can piggyback on it in some way. But for the moment it's just, it's just unlimited. That is, is opening up an office in That's so good though. And then like, if you are visiting, if you, like, I'm imagining you return to Cape Town quite often and, and you know, it's nice to be able to go in and have this, the productivity thing is brilliant. I think, when you are doing international commercial product like projects and other things, it just is such a great solution to that almost shutdown, isn't it? Overnight And you don't know where the project's located, so they might really only have three hours of time or crossover. That works. I think that's gonna be a, brilliant move. No, it, it's, we, we hope to be able to open up in South Africa fully. Uh, there's a lot of interest, however, it's pretty cost prohibitive. South Africa as a market is a tiny market. And also just the level of quality of our product and that sort of thing makes it very cost prohibitive all for people. The shipping makes it pretty difficult. So if we were to do something with Maron and Cape Town, if it wasn't project driven, it would probably be to see whether we could have product made there. And so that is another avenue that we're, we're exploring. Whether it happens I'm not a hundred percent sure there's a lot of interest in our stuff in South Africa and in Europe. I said to say there's a good, a really good synergy with, you know, a lot of places that could be stock lists instead of necessarily having a singular showroom. Because I think of, you know, and I haven't been there in a very long time, but. It is definitely there is innovation, there is art, there is a, a very thriving kind of design focus, and you feel as though it could fit into one of many different places that already exist. Yeah, no, it's definitely it's definitely a, a consideration at this stage. And we've got some good friends and some partners out there that we could pair up with if we wanted to. But I think for now our way of starting that process and starting that exploration is through the unlimited arm. Um, and once, once that is established and has a little bit more grounding, then, then we'll be able to see what that means for marketing added so much growth. For us, we just we are happy to take risk. Fire out for a year. It doesn't work. Doesn't work. You close it down. What There's no harm in it. I love hearing that out loud though, because I feel like so many people, a designer will walk into a house and say, what? It's just paint, paint it. If we don't like it, paint it over. And then within their business and within other things, they're like, excuse me, what? No, I will not be doing that. Like, that sounds risky, that sounds scary, that sounds bravery, and we expect it from our clientele. But I think you kind of, it's a good reminder to show up with the same sensibility in your own approach because ultimately everything can be wound back. Everything can be iterated involved, everything can be changed. And where we are today looks nothing like lockdown did, or what we thought would be happening when even, even with marketing, the, the business model is completely pivoted. So we started off creating our own products, selling our own products, and mainly focused on products. And where, where marketing is now is we create bespoke made to order. Furniture and basically projects for people. So I think, and then our products are now things that are designed but you know, manufactured through other people and solved through other people. So it's actually also being okay with the change. It was pretty difficult to me when that shift happened in our business because I felt like we'd failed not being able to make what we started with. The success. Yes, I think that's the thing that made it feel like a failure to me. However, a couple years down the line, I no longer see it as a failure. I actually see it as just a change and a change that's actually allowed a lot more freedom. And I think, if anybody's listening to this and they're in the same sort of position where their business has now gotten to a point and it has to change, the encouragement would be that time is going to help you see that change as not necessarily something negative And. You can learn from whatever happens, right? Like it doesn't have to be something that is negative for the rest of your life. Like it can actually be something that ends up being actually quite a positive thing. And I think helping rose with that was like, I often say to clients when I'm designing website one doesn't have to be website 10. Like you can get up homepage about page and a contact page, and in 24 months time when you've got more money, then we flesh out more. We then go get the photo shoot. But just get it up so people can contact you. I think we have such a similar philosophy, like when you messaged me the other day, I said something about pricing. We're like, yes, absolutely. And I am constantly going on about the first viable version. So I don't care about the next, you know, the next version will be another version, and especially if you are an emerging designer or someone just starting out, get something where someone can find you and get it done to the level that you can stand to have out in the world. Because within 12 months you will have the money to, and the energy and effort and understanding of your brand to go in and invest in having correct branding. When you have a little knowledge of who you wanna be in the market, who you serve and what you're doing. I feel like we spend so much time planning the hypotheticals. It's more, to me it's more important. Go out, get paid for what you do, learn your client, learn what lights you up, learn what you wanna do, and then market and attract more of that when you know what it even is.'cause I think we just start and you just generally, you're just starting and piggybacking off whoever you admire in the industry or whoever's website looks professional to you and it doesn't really speak a lot to you. So when you talk about your creative process that no book necessary, no inspiration necessary, that's a brief that just says, make me her. And I think it's so good, that first viable version and, and that reference of saying, you know, it's not forever, it's just for now. And it gets the job done and then it allows you the space to design it to be its very best version. I also feel like we as designers, because we're perfectionists. We don't release. Like we actually hold more than what we should. And so yes, I completely agree with you in terms of that, that first viable version, but I also feel like it is okay to not like what you've put out there. Yeah. And to recognize that too. It's only at, its like base level. It's not perfect. It's not perfect and it's not my level of reflective of my level. I've released furniture pieces that I actually don't like, but that are some of the most popular. Yeah. Because business and it actually has very little to do with how you feel about it. Just because you like something, like we say this to our clients all the time, right? The brief is not whether you like it. The brief is the brief. And if it meets the brief, even though it goes up against something in you, that's a you problem, that's not a project problem. Especially with a commercial space, I imagine, because you're talking about high traffic and it's actually you're building a sensory experience for multiple. Again, what you were explaining with residential and commercial, it's not about whether the homeowner is obsessed with the piece because the homeowner is the commercial space owner, which is the user of that space. So it's thousands of people that will move through that space. Yeah. One or two are gonna think it's ugly, keep walking. It's so fun. It's literally what it is. And just because the actual owner of that project doesn't necessarily like it. That's not my brief. My, my brief was not to make you happy, my brief was. To make you more money, basically. And so I think, I think there's also something of that in us as designers where we actually need to be, and especially commercial designers, like if you're if you were keen yourself more to being an artist, which to me is creating from a place of passion and creating from a place where you're actually just outputting something that is an expression, right? That, to me, leans more toward art than it does towards design. Design is, it has a purpose, right? Art doesn't have to have one. And so I feel like there's, there's, there's a place where as designers, we can lean more toward being artists than our actual role. And there's times where you're able to do that and there's times where you're not able to do that. But I feel sometimes because we fall in love with our projects, we actually lean more into being artists in those projects than actually being designers in them. And I know that this is something that,'cause Chris is an artist and I am a designer. There'll be times where he'll show me some of his art and I'll be like, yeah, it's fine. Not crazy about it. It's fine. But, and, and it's almost like the Jeffrey Smart thing. Like I know when I paint, I almost have to break up the paint. And like, I love that quote by him. Like he says, I have to break up the painting before I could release it to the world because I've been in love with it. And like, the same thing happened to me. Like I have to tell myself, treat it like a logo, walk away. Like, and like I could keep working on it and just keep working on it. Yeah. But I have to break up with it and leave. I love that it's an interception of art and science, like it's a perfect pH like for your relationship even. It's just that it's always that, almost like the justice scales to go all the way back to the, the legal reference before, but just having that tipping point all of the time of where it comes into the scientific approach versus the artistic approach. But I, I feel like you need to have this balance between them, right? Because I think what makes environments magical is the fact that someone has looked at it from that perspective. They've fallen in love with it and want to do the best for it because of what it is, and that, that may sound unbelievably esoteric. But there is a point where the spaces that we fall in love with aren't necessarily just perfectly designed like a fork is perfectly designed, but that doesn't necessarily make it beautiful. But what is the thing that does make it beautiful is that which is decoration now, which is not necessarily necessary. And so I think there's this there's this balance that we need to, that we need to find in spaces where our spaces are artistically driven, but designed based so that you're able to have absolute function, beautiful aesthetic. But there is also this magnetism that happens within spaces that we fall in love with and for reasons that aren't necessarily logical. And I think that's why people fall in, fall in love with asop stores. They do that balance and now you've got a lot of brands trying to follow them because it's like, it works. Yep. And then, uh, it's so nice to be on this side of it, you know, having these sorts of conversations and, and feeling and understanding the depth of it. And it just also makes me laugh to think about how many people experience the spaces and just go, oh, this feels good. Like, or don't even notice it, you know, walk all the way through it. And it's because of the likes of like the things that you guys are doing and the things that the entire design community does on a day to day. And the fact that we. Are so considered and always tipping that balance point, checking what it would look like with my more science, more art back again and doing all of that. And then, yeah, the average person just walks around their life unaware of, you know what it is that's making it so magical. Yeah, it was, it was interesting. I was actually having a conversation with a good friend of mine who's a neuroscientist. So she's got a PhD in neuroscience and what she does on a daily basis is bonkers. So she's literally like taking brain cells and splitting them apart to check whether, you know, she can get rid of Alzheimer's and stuff like that. So like groundbreaking, amazing stuff that she's busy with. So whenever we talk this, there's this like clash because she always wants to find out more about the design stuff because to her it's a completely new world. And she's like, I've never thought about a space that way before. Wow. And then she starts telling me about this Alzheimer's thing, and then she took this rat brain and then she did this with this rat brain. And I was like, this is so freaking cool. But the reason I pointed out was to, to your point in terms of yes, people do walk around not knowing. That spaces have been hacked for, lack of a better word, in utilizing Carly's stuff. I think that design I often say that design is like air. You need it. And when it's not there, you realize much of it, you realize. And so it's, again, there's, there's this thing where we do want design to be something that is necessary, but not effectual. We do want design to feel completely seamless. Completely yeah, effortless in the degree. And I think that if you are able to do that, then you know you've actually succeeded because do we really want everybody to be as educated about spaces as what we're, no. And also it comes back to, I think that effortless and that so intentional to look unintentional or all of those sorts of things is another. Circling back to our conversation that we had on Instagram about pricing, it's another reason why value is so difficult to articulate, because it's very difficult to show someone before a project starts what that's gonna look like at the end. Like all creative struggle with that. And that's why I think we're often looking for, why can't we just get a calculator or a formula or why can't we just do the pricing this way? Or why is it so hard to articulate our value? And I think it comes back to the conversation that we're having right now. It is very difficult to articulate something that you are almost trying to have look effortless and have it look like, but we know that there is so much effort in the background. Yeah, I think pricing is, it's a whole nother podcast. Absolutely. I think pricing is, and value. Value is such a word, right? It's that gray area coming back to HT you. Well, it's interesting. I had a conversation with someone quoting for a website yesterday. And I said, you know, we can do it from this price to this price. And the first thing she said, that's more than I wanted to spend. I was looking at this and I said, I can do it for that, but if I get an RII result over the next six months, then I want 20% of all the sales. And then she was like, but why? And I'm like, because it's still worth that much. But I'm like, I know that I'll get that result. The look on her face was like, no, no, I'll pay that price. Because now you're taking away a profit. Yeah. And you've got a percentage that has an unlimited amount. Like if you can get it to be a certain amount, she's up for way more than she is at the top end. Yeah. And it was just, just that quick wetness to say that to her. It was like, no, that good. Send me the quote. It's all good. Thank you. And woke up this morning and she signed. And it's, it's really interesting when you like, think. Commercial design. If commercial I design said, yeah, cool, like I know that this space is gonna go really well, lemme take 20% and get r oi from this space. Like I guarantee most brands would be like, uh, no. We're happy to pay the price. Yeah, that's a really great reframe. I love that. And especially as you say, when you're talking with corporate, when you're talking with brands, you're talking with people that have, you know, a lot of my listeners are talking residential, where they really have budget concerns and they are really dug in on their number in their head and they don't really wanna go elsewhere. But when you are working with corporations and companies, you know, there's wiggle room everywhere if they believe in it. Yeah. I also, I also feel like, I mean, even for, for residential clients, right? I think it's. There's many ways to be very clever about areas that don't necessarily need as much investments as other areas. I think it's, I think especially with, with clients and managing budgets, it's, it's saying, what are the five things that to you have to be the best quality? Alright, then let's prioritize those. Everything else. If I give you the cheaper option, this is why I'm giving you the cheaper option, is because we decided those five things are the heroes and we're gonna spend on those. The rest of them are gonna try to save as much as we possibly can. What, what you're doing then is you're actually helping that client to, to prioritize the things that them are gonna be, um. The daily thing that they look at and they're like, oh yeah, this is why I did this. Right. Whereas, for me, hinges are really important. When I design a kitchen, it has to be lum. I cannot use anything else. And that's no offense to any other hinge maker. They're not listening. Don't worry. That's not, well, maybe they are hello to all of our, uh, suppliers. Like I use suppliers for other projects. But if it's my own, it has to be that. And to the point that I will sacrifice maybe not getting the best appliance, but my hinges have to be. So I think, you know, and, and that's gonna be different for every single client, right? And so from a residential perspective it's actually digging down on your client to the degree that you're actually able to understand what to them equates to value. And that may not necessarily be what you think equates to value. Or what logically equates to that because like the hinges Exactly. It's not logical. It's not logical. But it makes total sense to me. I, I'm no judgment. I just think that yeah, that's such a good perspective on understanding. Again, with layer and with looking at different things, you don't actually generally drill down to that level in your initial consultation and in that initial brief, it can be more of a conversation around once the proposal's sent and maybe if there is some traction or there's some conversation back and forth, just knowing that that's available to you to go to that other level to lead the design in that way. I think that's a really great summation. I would also say another thing that helps to drive value is for people to understand the process involved in bringing something like this to life. So the reality of what it's you're embarking on and why we need assistance. I think that's often something that isn't communicated from us as designers to clients. They think because they've watched. Shows and they've seen TikTok and they've done stuff that it's quick boom. Yeah. I think where we often win clients over is when we take them through the process, we actually say, Hey, so to go from this to this takes this long and it takes, let me show you what effortless actually means. And it takes this long for these reasons. And once they understand that what they're investing in is not just you to make things look pretty, it's actually a process. And the management of that process then they actually start to see the value, right? They see that at the end of this, I'm getting a full schedule, I'm getting a full set of drawings, I'm getting a full list of how it is. Everything needs to be built. And so for them, and that's me just simplifying it, but like for them there is, there's tangibles, right? Because design can often, for clients feel very esoteric and airy fairy. It's like, okay, well you're just picking something. I can pick something. It's like, well, you can. But have you picked the right thing? I often describe it as like this, like when you go have surgery, you're not just worked on by a surgeon. And I think so many people think of designers as very singular in what they bring. Where I always say the surgeon has probably a team of eight to 10 people plus years of experience. Plus the ability Plus the equipment. Yeah. Plus the space, plus the ability to then be able to do what they need to do. Right. And you're not questioning how he does it. And by using those analogies, I often find they go, but you can take them on the journey saying like, you have a brand expert, an interior designer plus two guys that run a foot out in your first discovery meeting. Find me a business where you're gonna have that. Yeah. And that level of and it changes the way that they think because it's like, well, I can talk about signage, I can talk about the menu, I can talk about how the website functions into the booking core in meeting one. And then where does RO need that? POS placed and the boys will say straight away in the first meeting, Hey, with those columns, what are we gonna be doing with them? Are we wrapping them around with something? And I find in that first discovering meeting, often when the four of us are there, it's a no questions asked. It's just like how much Yeah. The ability to go, for us, even just as designers, to have our makers in the meeting with us is invaluable because what we have is instant feedback. So I'll be like, okay, I've got this idea. Andrew will sit and say, yeah, that's gonna be expensive. Or he'll say, Nora's a great idea. That'll like, we can do this or we can do this. And then it'll be a really cost effective way to sort of solve a problem or whatever the case is. The other thing is that I feel like you cut down on so much back and forth and you actually end up saving money because you've got. Into play that's happening before I even finish my drawings. So I'm not drawing something. Sending it to the shop fitter. Yeah. And then finding out it can't be done. Tell me it can't be done or it's bloody expensive or whatever. It's, you know, it honestly, it saves us so much time and it saves clients so much money at the end of the day as well. And I feel like, again, in terms of back to what we were talking about in terms of value, I think it's also an education for clients to know that yes, you can hire a designer, but you're not only going to need designer, you're also going to need this, you're also gonna need brilliant trade team and you need them to communicate so well together. Yeah. And that's not something, frankly, if this is the first time you're doing it, you're gonna be able to do well, sorry, as much as you think you can. It's a beautiful place to end up our conversation today. I think just thinking about that value, thinking about that piece, the real time application, I think it's probably inspired a lot of people who are not in the same position with the partnerships that they have access to, to maybe think, Hmm, who can I get on my team on an ongoing basis so that I am not the lone surgeon any longer and I can have a bit of support around me.'cause it sounds like you have such a, a great model that's working really well that you are able to draw from everybody's skillset and everybody's experience and bring it together. So thanks for breaking it down for us today and having a chat. I've loved it. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks. All right, I'll chat to you soon. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you've found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. 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