Ewa Doherty on starting and scaling with an exit strategy

Starting an interior design business with an exit strategy — rather than building it to keep forever — is one of the most overlooked approaches to studio setup. In this episode, regional NSW designer Ewa shares how she built her supply selection and B2B builder service with saleable IP in mind from day one: documented systems, transferable processes, a packaged service model, and zero dependence on her personal creative genius to deliver results.

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CHAPTERS
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0:00 How finding a podcast on a cruise ship changed the trajectory of a grief-filled career pivot
4:30 Why Ewa started her interior design studio with an exit strategy — and where the idea came from
10:00 What transferable skills from freight logistics and global sales actually do for a design business
16:45 How to get interior design work from builders in a regional area — the exact outreach method
26:00 Should you do B2B builder relationships or wait for residential clients?
33:20 Why Ewa passes 100% of trade discount and charges a procurement fee instead
39:45 How to price interior design services when you genuinely don't know what you're doing yet
46:00 What was harder than expected: the social media problem, and why she stopped caring
52:30 Outsourcing SketchUp, lighting design, and floor plans — what to hand off and how to price it
58:00 How Ewa operates a portable, regional design studio from a motorhome

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RESOURCES MENTIONED
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→ Programma project management software: programma.app
→ Studio Build — 6-week AI implementation intensive for interior designers: [link]
→ Studio CEO — 12-week business coaching programme for interior designers: [link]


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ABOUT RHIANNON LEE
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AI strategist for Australian interior designers. Former Oleander & Finch. Creator of the Studio Suite — Studio Learn, Studio Build, and Studio CEO — operational AI implementation for design businesses, not productivity theatre.

→ Instagram: @the_rhiannonlee

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Transcript

1:28

Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander and Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you can expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success So let's kick off from the beginning because I can't even remember the, how the scenario came about that you found my brand or that you found me. I don't remember. But I do remember when we met, you were working in corporate. You were starting the, the sparks of ideas of should I take this all the way. I want to do this as my next steps. But you were still in corporate when we met. Do you remember where you found- I remember exactly where I found you. Yeah. Exactly. so I had gone through a really difficult time personally. I, we had moved, or started the move from Sydney to regional New South Wales, which included selling our home and building and everything that goes with that. And my mother died suddenly, and which w- meant a lot of time had to be spent down in Melbourne, and I hadn't really, allowed for that in the process of moving and packing up and all that sort of stuff. I spent a lot of time in Melbourne, and then my father died shortly afterwards, so I had, I lost both my parents very close together, which meant I had to, together with my sister, we had to deal with all their, their affairs and properties and stuff like that. So I had a real distraction, and I was in the middle of studying with the Interior Design Institute, and that just put me on hold. For a long time, I dealt with these personal matters, and I was still working full time, so I had my job as well in Sydney. and I remember where I met you because w- we were on holiday. I'd taken a break, and we were on a cruise, and I was doing some laps up on the exercise deck. And I'm, a great consumer of podcasts, and I listened to a podcast that when you were getting interviewed by the Interior Design Institute, which was where I was studying. And at that time, I was still think- wondering whether I should go on with the course. Was my heart in it? Could I really see this? I'd had so much of this disruption, I thought, "Oh, I'd really lost my momentum on this." But once I heard that podcast, it really inspired me to get back into it. And so I really determined that I would go home and pick up where I left off, and really in honor of my parents as well, that I could see this through to the end. And so I did, and, set myself some pretty aggressive targets, and by then we were m- we'd moved, we, I'd left my corporate job, and this was became my full-time job. So I did finish. I finished ahead of schedule and then went on another holiday, which was a nice little reward at the end of that. So yeah. So I remember that, and I was very inspired. And you were also then referencing your experience as a student and then how you had set up Oleander and Finch and the framework. And so I then joined the framework, and- Yeah that was probably about 2022. Yeah, a long time ago. It's, it's funny, y- you describe such a hectic whirlwind, like when you find someone, and I feel like I was, the way you describe that there, it's like the Mel Robbins of kicking your butt into getting, like finishing the course. but I have always known you to be such a determined person. Like, when I first met you, you were like, "Oh, look, I think I will start the framework at the same time as I'm studying, and at the same time." not everyone is willing to bite off that much at once. They realise that the Interior Design Institute or wherever you're studying is its own full-time kinda commitment. And then to also say, "I see benefit in building my business alongside as my skills, because I know how much time that actually takes," and that they're... You took a design course, you didn't take a business course, right? So y- you do somewhere need that secondary skill if you're gonna go out on your own. I was very clear, you're right, about having an exit strategy. And I... That first occurred to me when I listened again to a podcast, a Mark Buras podcast. I'm a very big fan of his. And in a particular, he made a comment and he I can't remember what the topic was, but he said, "When you set up a business, begin with the end in mind, and have an exit strategy." So that's where I got the idea. It wasn't an original idea as such. because that's really how investors operate and people that go into venture capital. They look at what can they build here and what can they get out of it in the long run. And so for me, it wasn't so much about creating, an income for myself, it was more about building something that I could challenge myself and en- enjoy creating and building and then on-sell that or whatever in the future to someone that can then take it over and it's turn-key for them. Essentially, I'm selling that, I'll be selling the, the- The IP, I'll be selling the processes, the framework itself, the contact lists, trade lists. There's a lot of, there's a lot of components to it, which is what I've built. So that's the plan. I'm only one year in, so time will tell how that goes. But i- it's really just, I recognize that it's not about being a creative interior designer and I really am not an incre- creative interior designer at all. But I'm, I feel my skill sets are more about creating and running a business. And- I also believe that if this is set up the right way, anyone can take it over. Because essentially, I am now the orchestrator of a lot of different services and solutions for clients. I'm not there doing amazing design. I'm there listening to the client and solving a problem for them. And how I solve that problem, that doesn't matter to them. The, what matters is that I solve it. And I feel that if the business structure is right, anyone can step into that with the right, m- skill set and mindset. it doesn't have to be me with my name, or, as I said, particularly brilliant at interior design. It's, you just have to be a plotter and solid at business operations. It's interesting. was there anything when you started your business that you felt was easier than you anticipated? You braced yourself for something to be quite hard, and then it turned out it wasn't? Yes. I feel that my number one biggest one of my biggest advantages is that I'm, by nature, a very organized person, and I'm very structured. And that then enables me to look at detail quite well. I, I realized that was a really good transferable skill that I'd taken- with me from my previous, corporate life. just as a background, I actually worked in a fairly technical area in freight and logistics globally, designing and then selling and managing complex third and fourth-party logistics solutions for global retail brands. So that by its nature- Now, sales stuff is something that's not native to creatives generally. Correct. So that's a skill to have. And so that gave me some really transferable skills, because I had to very much follow process and compliance as well global compliance, and even customs and, local regulations, but also work cross-culturally, work cross-functionally, work in different time zones, support my customer globally, and also be accountable to revenue and sales targets. So the other thing that was easier than I was expecting, but I'm not surprised, is that how much of what we do is heavily about sales. Yeah. I feel I've, I'm running a sales operation that happens to package and produce a product being solutions for interior design problems. Yeah. I'm you'll never find me in a magazine with something amazing that, has won some award. But what I know I do for my clients is I listen to them and I think about, how can I tease out what they're trying to tell me, because they can't always articulate it. And then how do I then translate that into a solution- and sell that- dream to them, that, that concept to them. So it's all about sales, in my opinion, and conversion. You're also the only person that I've ever private coached that I felt truly comfortable to set you KPI... sales KPIs almost, or be like, "Here's this strategy." We know what it is. We won't go into it 'cause it's not for everybody on the podcast for free. But there was a particular strategy that we employed six to eight months prior to launching the business where I felt really comfortable that I could say to you, "I've got this, idea. It's exciting. I don't have a designer who will do it," 'cause none of them are willing to put themselves out there and look at it from the perspective of selling the result. The sales sort of skill is somewhat missing or needs development in many people that I talk to. But I got really excited. Can you remember our call that I was, definitely having those Mr. Squiggle moments, and Jay would have to pull my legs down all the time because I was getting like, "Oh, we could do this," and, "You should do this," because I knew you could back it up, right? Because when you're talking to someone who has that level of comfort with sales, just not going to say to me, "That sounds awesome. I will never do that." You were like, "That sounds awesome. Let's get started." That is a different conversation, and I think it's probably delivered you everything that you wanted in terms of ease when I say was there something that was easier than you anticipated. There's people listening to this podcast who still put out proposals, spend depending on whether they use AI or not, they could be spending some- somewhere t- in the vicinity of two days tweaking and fiddling with a proposal, send it out, and never follow it up because they're worried that they'll get a no. That is a common thing. I'm not mocking the people that are listening. I'm just saying, wow, isn't that such a difference between a structure that you would have? If something goes out, you have a process to follow that up. You have a process to reconnect with that person and see how they felt about what you sent. You have the kind of comfort level to go out and close that sale. It's out there now. It's yours for the taking. I completely agree. And also just understanding pipeline management and the sales cycle. Understanding how to qualify an opportunity, and how to set parameters around what you will do and what your deliverables are, and then, communicating with the client or creating a scope of work or even a proposal, which either lands or it doesn't. And in my case, it mostly does land because I've qualified it so thoroughly before I've done anything that something... The only time it doesn't is if there's a postponement due to something that's come up in the background, which is understandable. But I have not yet had any clients or prospective clients say no without f- without me expecting that. So- That's probably, again, a good sales skill in really, first of all, I'm dealing with the, what we call the economic buyer, so the decision maker not the assistant or whatever. So I'm speaking to them directly, and I ensure that I do get in front of them. But also, not, there's not a lot that I don- can't anticipate. It's just, it's- it's just intuitive, and it's come from years of expertise and I think the advantage of being a bit older, coming at this from a mature age. Yeah. you've got the, the life skills, and you've been through that many different combinations of experiences that nothing shocks or surprises me anymore. But I think it's also important not to be disappointed when something falls over. for, it, see it first as a learning thing or, your pricing wasn't right, or your scope wasn't right, or whatever it is. It's very important to do an a postmortem or an analysis- on why that didn't close or didn't ava- eventuate. and not take it to heart or feel upset about it, or take it personally even. It's just, in my experience, I've been able to compartmentalize something that hasn't come through and put it in a box, put it aside, and move on. It is maturity and experience, though, because the first year you're like your ego can be so attached to the brand that you're building in that, for some people, they've got personal brands. It's literally their name that someone said no to. It can feel, it can be a skill to disconnect that ego. But when you have, in your experience, for example, if you've had corporate jobs, other things, you've had serious roles, you've learned that when things go, in a flaming bin fire, which they generally do circu- like every now and again it happens, you know that it's not you personally it's situations, it's factors. You can be a little bit more reasonable. Just the listener context as well, when you talked about the sort of conversion rates there or how things are going, you are someone who has more of a packaged approach to interior design. people, when you are qualifying them and you're sending them investment guides, or you're sending them things, they have sort of an expectation of what they get and what they pay. So that's important to say out loud because people might be thinking that you're having these in-home consults with bespoke proposals going out left and center, and everyone saying yes. It is a little bit different when you have more of an approach to things that is a little bit more transparent, or it's take it or leave it kind of thing. Yeah, and I, and that's very true because I do supply selection services to builders, and it's a very- In and out service. And builders like it because I, again, am coming in and doing work they don't want to be doing. But I sell it to them as a value add, in that what could you be doing with this time, instead of running around selecting taps and tiles. Yeah. and so they get that and that is a package sell. And you're selling it direct, aren't you? It's very B2B, because I- yeah feel like a lot of conversations I have with designers, they're like, "I've got this flyer. Like, how do I get in front of builders?" I- if I get asked one more time, "What do I need to do to have these sort of working relationships with builders?" And I am like, "It's definitely who you know, get on site, meet them. Talk to them. They're people, but they're also, they communicate very differently as a species, the builder. They definitely are going to respond to a relationship that's been built through walking. You do this brilliantly, because you will have specific days or times, and you will- Yes reorganize those meetings, and reconfirm with them, and be like, "I'll be on site at 1:30. We're meeting at this cafe at 4:30." You've got all of these things going on. I really admire that about you, because I see it being so different to so many. And I don't wanna put that overarching people sit in that sort of victim mentality about connecting with the builders, but they do want the relationships. They want what you've got in terms of the like the packages, and doing all the B2B stuff, and being the preferred designer for these builders. But then almost not willing to go and do what you do as well. So do you wanna explain it a little bit? What do you do to get a connection with a builder? I, first of all, started by creating a builder database, because I didn't know really who to go and even talk to. So I with AI compiled a list of builders, in my case in the Central Tablelands. Put that database together. Had about 40 and I'd... In qualifying them at the first level, I actually just checked their websites, a little bit about what they do. Tried to segment them. Are they doing custom building? Are they doing spec building? Whatever. So I was able to get a good platform there, and then from there, first thing I did was create a Flodesk email, an outreach email. And I used our wonderful GPTs, your GPTs, to help me with that. That was so invaluable. And I had extremely high engagement. 70% engagement. meaning through Flodesk they had opened, read, and clicked on my text or my, my- Copy. There was also a call to action. I can't remember. I was offering a few gimmicks and things like that. Anyway, I didn't really worry so much about who had done what. What I knew from the analytics of the first and second and subsequent, email campaign was I could see a trend, and I could see who was at least interested and who was at least reading it and opening it. And then from there, I created a target list, and then I hit the phones and I rang. So if I had 40 going out, I probably had 30 that I rang personally. and most of them, some of them said, "Oh, yeah, oh, I don't remember seeing anything," or, "Oh, that was my assistant that opened it," and whatever. So there was a bit of that. but that was at least a, kind of a conversation starter, and I explained what I do, and I said I'd like to come and see you. There may be opportunities for us to collaborate, and in a very high percentage were happy to meet. So I then created another list to say these are the guys I've actually met." And then from there on, I was able to do more targeted emailing. So very, just a simple, logical, get my name out there, my brand out there, get my face out there. and- I feel like I stand corrected here. The builders are opening their emails, but, They are. Some. Some had no idea. And so- Yeah And you could see that in the patterns that were coming through on that- But the phone call is the important thing- Yeah 'cause that cuts through. That's the bit where you follow up and say, "Look, you may or may not have actually absorbed it- Yes 'cause we get so many emails, but I sent you an email. Here's what I'm proposing. I'd love to come out." Yep. "I think there might be scope for us to work together well," and take it from there. I really played up the FOMO with the builders, because I know that, because b- being in a regional area as well, they all know each other. And so they, I know that they might have been thinking, "Oh look, I better talk to this lady here because I might be missing out. There might be someone else that's getting in ahead of me," or whatever. And equally, builders would often say who else are you talking to? Who you're working with?" And I intuitively knew to be always the highest level of discretion is required particularly in regional towns. Not only because people know every- everyone knows everyone, but people love to know what other people are doing because they know them, and there's a little bit of that sort of competitiveness. So I go a really long way on promoting discretion, if that makes sense, by saying, "Oh, look, I never discuss who I work with or what I'm doing," whether that's a homeowner or a builder, because it's sensitive and people... And I know for sure people in the regional areas would not- Want their living room put on Instagram or having me talk about working on their projects or anything like that. And builders are the same. I get to see, I've had a builder go broke. N- nothing to do with me, or let's say- not I was paid. It was all right. But the poor thing went broke for other reasons. But, that's the sort of sec- highly sense- sensitive stuff that I get my- Yeah eyes on that stuff, and I've- Yeah I've got to be careful. It works two ways, though, because it presents you as a super professional. They know- they can trust if they do work with you, you're not gonna go tell Darren down at the pub that they're working with you- and how much they're paying and what's going on. And it works the other way, where the, it sparks their interest. "Oh, okay then. She's obviously got some good..." Yeah juicy T going on there that I don't get to know about." But- Yeah it, it almost speaks the language of established without needing to actually list out who you're working with, how many jobs they're actually passing to you, which, for some builders could be one a year, for others could be couple of months. You don't really need to know that. It is commercially sensitive. I think it reminds me, I'm pretty sure that we had a conversation many moons ago about, flipping the, flipping the script a little bit on the builders and going out and meeting them and saying, "So pitch to me why I would connect with you." Oh, yeah. I interviewed them. Yeah. Not the other way. Yeah. And then when we interview them, they want to be on board, and that it- Yes it somehow manages to, again, we talk about ego, just somehow manages to tickle their ego just enough that they're like, "Oh, we're in this. I'm gonna find you some clients, and we're gonna work together." Just because they get curious about what other people are doing and they think if I wanna be one of the four out of the 40 that you go and talk to that actually gets work out of this, then I better pull my socks up and get sorted and deliver." And that actually turned out to be quite true, because I did have an opportunity to recruit a builder for a project, for an expression of interest on behalf of a client. Which was a really powerful position to be in, because I was in a position to reach out to the builders and say, "Here's the project. Who wants to work on this?" And I did that through Flow Desk and got some good responses, and then went through the sort of, shortlisting process. Applications. Yeah. Please apply below. Which I was very careful. I stepped back very quickly. I just, my job was stage one, just compiling. Yeah. I used, Google Forms to create a questionnaire and then it was very targeted and then summarized that all and sent it to the client. And then they took it from there. But it's true, because it can work the other way, in that I will also get access or see stuff that's coming up. Yeah. That a builder may be perfectly suited to to take that job on, so yeah. Which are really good points to make to the builders. I think, again, to- to the audience, to people listening that keep saying, "I've sent them my PDF of services." It's okay, but see how now when you get a working understanding of how you do have the power to recommend trades. And a build is no small commission check, right? You a whole house build that, that, that's been recommended to them is not the same as a FF&E package or, something like that is quick and turned around. It's a very big business gift to give if you get the job and so you do have that power. And I think we, we minimize that sometimes or we forget that we ha- we hold as many cards. We're not just looking for builders who will help us get work. You're also very instrumental in helping them not listen to the homeowner whine about the tiles. They can come and do that with us, right? It is a big thing. We discussed what was easier obviously, than you anticipated based on transferable skills and whatnot, but was there anything in the launch, or anything so far that's just felt hard? It's just felt harder than you thought it would be- Oh surprisingly yeah, sure. social media, I'm very po- I'm very polarized about it all anyway. obviously I'm not a digital native. I didn't grow up with this stuff. and I only joined Facebook, I don't know, a couple of years ago because I had to, not because I was particularly interested, and was never into that kind of mass connections or- The narcissistic scream hole, you can say it. accumulating friends or whatever it is, right? my, my Facebook page, if anyone ever looks at my personal page, is, it's just pictures of what I grow in my garden and boring stuff, right? Yeah. that's been hard for me in that I'm not, it's not beyond me to take it on You're capable, you're just uninterested. That's okay. I just don't care about it. Yeah. I just don't. I just really don't have it. And I also am very cynical about it as well. I'm sure I scroll through Instagram waiting in a waiting room or something or passing the time and... But, I look at funny things that just brighten my day and make me laugh and whatever, but I never buy anything or- and there's a, there's an enormous amount of rubbish on social media. More rubbish than good stuff in my opinion. We've worked- yeah, so for me it's been harder to get myself into gear with that. so I do a little bit of- I h- here in the regions, it's all about local area marketing anyway. So Facebook's good. I can I post on Facebook and post f- bits and pieces on Facebook, and I get good responses actually. But I can't even be bothered looking at the analytics. You need to have it so that someone can tag you as a recommendation in a group. Correct. But you don't need to. And we've worked very deep on your local and digital strategy. Yeah. And it's become very clear very quickly that the digital strategy is, doesn't need a lot of your attention in terms of- No unless you have a huge leads problem. W- website, yes. Always digital. That is your epicenter of digital strategy. A good website is great. The Google My Business, great. But getting onto the social media stuff, as you explained, like your Instagram, your Facebook, your LinkedIn, all that sort of stuff, it's an unnecessary evil for a regional designer who needs a- Sure strong local investment and local strategy. Yes. And I think I've proven that because I do have a very good website, which has been professionally built. And I knew- again, play to my strengths. I wasn't going to be stuffing around with all that sort of thing and just- But so we're two years later in the backend screaming. Yeah, no, not in. Yeah. And again, thinking about the future of selling the business. Yeah. I needed to show that I started strong, and it was a clear messaging from the outset, not evolving as such. Yeah. And tri- trial and error. So I just threw money at that. And it was very expensive, but it was very important. And then I've got a lead magnet, which was also quite expensive to create. But I use that and push traffic from the lead magnet onto my website. So everything lands on my website. Inquiry page, any- anything that comes through. Google My Business, I'm doing well with that. I really believe in that. Yeah. So I'm getting reviews. And the rest is just I just, so I just, as I said, I can't even be bothered looking at the analytics on Facebook because I just, I'd rather, I would rather sit there and- Do something so- Ring a few builders, get on the phone academically tedious rather than worry about all that stuff. So yeah, so that's been hard for me. Yeah. and I- It's also not nec- in certain situations, and I think it's good to call out and the, for people to think about, when was the last time someone dropped into your DM with a literal an actual inquiry that converted? Because we do a lot of growth we do a lot of number growing there, audience growing. There's so many great reasons to be on social media, and it's okay to love it or whatever. We also do a lot of sideways looking at what peers are doing, a lot of projecting content that impresses our peers but doesn't convert our homeowners. There's just, And there are times where I've coached designers and just said, "We've gotta shut it down. You have to step away from it." I can see it h- it affects mental health. It's not an, I know you have thoughts about it too, but it can be a place that need, you need to be really self-aware when you're using it, and you need to know what is the outcome. And you're trained, a- again, with that sales background around ROI, and for you, the return on that investment is ridiculously low. You might get one inquiry every two years. I've never had one. No. I've never had a DM inquiry. And you may not. Like- And I don't care for it either. This is the thing. My inquiries come through definitely word of mouth, and that's- Yeah that's an advantage of being in a regional area. People know everyone's related or whatever. And I have very little competition around where I am. But at the same time, it's not like being in the big cities where people use interior designers a lot. But I do get builders and I do get people with a renovation problem or floor plan problem, stuff like that. so it's really, again, not about being a creative genius. It's about solving a problem. So my referrals mostly come s- friend of a friend, somebody heard about me, s- I don't know, website. They a- they've all come through the website or looked at the website. And then believe it or not, they just pick up the phone and ring me up. Yeah. It's all phone calls here. People- Yeah they just, I could never afford to have unknown caller filters and stuff because that's my next client. They all ring. Yeah. Yeah. It is funny, isn't it? I get a lot of incoming calls as well from the website, and- gosh, they catch me at the wrong time. My kids, they can- Good market sniff it. If I c- if I take a business call, they are, the three of them swarm around my legs, "Can I have a lollipop? Can I have lollipops?" And I'm like, "We don't even have ice creams in this house." But suddenly they're open- they're throwing open the freezer, they're climbing the pantry. They're like, you've got that total mum ventriloquist voice. You go, "Sit down, I will talk to you about it after my call." I'm just like, "Ah, I can't manage this." But I've, the biggest jobs that I've ever had have all come through on my telephone. If I didn't answer unknown calls, just like you say, if I had a filter I do with the i- this new iPhone, but people can announce who they are, and then I grab the call. what, we talk about regional behaviors. You're ex-Sydney, as you said at the start when we met. You were moving and all that sort of stuff. What have you really noticed about specifically the clientele and running a business regionally versus what you would anticipate it would be like in an urban setting, like inner-city Sydney? I haven't, I do a bit of work in Sydney. I pick and choose what I do in Sydney. If I'm a bit lazy, so I don't want to drive up there unless I've got a reason to go there. I'm actually going tomorrow, and I have, three client appointments that are all, in progress, so that's a good enough reason to go. and showrooms and things like that. But there's a, I feel, a big difference definitely. A- and again I think it's also, I segment it a bit by age demographic as well. here I tend to get more older clients. certainly not first homes or anything like that. What I've absolutely observed in regional areas is that the clients are very conservative. please don't give me any trends, don't give me any fashion. I've never heard of this. What i- you know, what is this? Don't say rattan or bouclé, it makes me uncomfortable 'cause I- No don't know how to say it. No, do not say. Just give me something that will last- Abso- 20 years. Correct. Absolutely nothing. So we're talking brown furniture. We're talking, often, inherited furniture that needs to stay. Reupholstery. Yeah, reupholstering, I do quite a bit of that, which I love doing that, 'cause I l- I'm a great believer in reusing good, buying good quality and then repurposing it later on. Loving it forever. Yeah. Just giving it a refresh. Pass the test. So there's more of that around where I live, and particularly the, we're all on acreage, and there's often, there, there's often homes that have been in the family for generations- that have maybe been, had extended floor plans or renovations. But there's some lovely furniture pieces. So I encourage and try and find ways of, exciting people with what they've got and building around that and- Sometimes that's not ideal and it can be harder. But generally I don't find people want the latest trends or the latest anything. They just want something that feels like them. And the- and it goes back to what you said about listening to the client and like really taking on that problem-solving. I did this for a project of mine, only two weeks ago. I gave two concepts, and one was using, 'cause we'd redone the living area, the existing sofas and coffee tables. I had done like a back pool house with those existing ones because they were in very good condition. They were very beautiful, and it's wasteful just to drag them out the front of the on the nature strip if we c- if I could find a way. So I showed them a new concept for the pool house, and then one that used the existing ones. And then she called me up and she said, "Oh, my, my son's not very happy with you because we were just about to give him that for his new apartment, and now we're gonna go with your concept and we're gonna keep it in there." Oh, was it? Yeah. And I was like he's not my client, is he? You are." And yeah people do see the value in your expertise when you can do, when you can think about that because that shows how much you're... It's not always just about "Tell me your budget so I can spend it all." Sometimes it's about okay actually now sofas are expensive. I've probably added 10K that I can spend elsewhere in the home to enrich the design because we don't have to buy the sofas and coffee tables for the pool house. It's that of course, but I actually think it's a bit deeper than that. I think that, again it's people in the country are, they're very thoughtful. They're very, they're not wasteful. They often have had come through with hardship and- Yeah things get recycled. And I think they would find it a bit of an insult if you said, "Oh, that old crap old sofa." Get rid of that. No. And there's nothing wrong these were beautiful s- I wouldn't put them in a design with my logo on it if they weren't- Correct nice. Yeah. So the, I need to show that level of respect. Yeah. And they'll respect me much more for recognizing what they have and what they love, rather than me flashing some, I don't know, Pinterest board at them or something and- Do you feel like this, the like urban clients are a little bit more "Let's start with a blank," "Drag this stuff out, start again. Give me a whole end to end"? Yeah, i'm working with one of the most lovely family, who have bought a, moved into a new home, and are just, it's all just a furniture upgrade and everything. I pass on the trade discount. I tr- I charge a procurement fee, but I pass on the discount. And because I've packaged it all up with- You know, one supplier, one brand. There's a better discount so the client gets better value for money. It's easier for me, and they get what they want, and they want that look. But I couldn't bring that look into the country, I don't think. Not from what I've seen, so- It's interesting, you were talking, and we're not in a coaching call, but I wanted to hold up my little sign here that says trade benefits. It's discount that they get when they work with you. It's not cheapening it, but it's it does bring up a really good point though around the procurement fee and stuff. Everyone does use their different models, and I think, when we talk regional and urban as well, there's different expectations. Urban is more obsessed about access, I think, with designer showrooms and places that you can get them into that they can't go without having a designer. Whereas your regional would be more interested in the benefits and how using, hiring you can pay off in the long run if they're able to get things under recommended retail, and if they're able to shop in. I don't think they really care too much if something's exclusive or only designer-only. I don't know. I might be- Definitely not. And I personally like that model where I pass on 100% of the trade discount, 'cause they love that. They feel they, they get, they see the value, and I'm simply charging a fair and reasonable procurement fee that articulates what you will get for- Yeah what you're paying for as part of that fee. This is what I'll be doing. I don't wanna be weighed down with all that sort of stuff. I just want to do the job and do it well. Yeah. And- And also, a lot of your services don't require this. They are the more of the finishes and fixtures- Yeah and it is more like taps and things which you don't need to get involved in. Yeah. You can just give the link to the ABI web- if you want to or- your builder or trades team. Yes. Th- there is a very fine line with overstepping too, because the builder and trades are like hang on. I wanted to do something with that margin," and you've just gone and- I give it to the builder. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't do it. You just- I completely give that to- Hand over, which is nice I say to the builder. Yeah, 'cause the builders get, get concerned that you'll, take their, their opportunity, their margins and stuff. And I just flick it all to the builder. I just say- Stay out of it "Okay, I'm going to, spe- specify the Poly- Polytech brand, for instance. I really don't care- Yeah where you get it or which kitchen company you use." Yeah. And also it's a nice feeling, because you can close the fi- client file. You can hand over. And then they can take it from there, and it's so fine. Which again, to my point is I don't want, I can't be bothered with all the messing around that- Then becomes a problem- Yeah and they can't get it. What's the alternative? Whatever. Yeah. What's the best decision you made in your first year of business? What do you- first of all, fundamentally, all credit to you was joining the framework, and I'm not saying that Because you're on my podcast, and I paid you. No. I'm a new paddle pro. Watch it on YouTube. I there's at least two things I can think of, and that is, without a doubt, the single most important thing I've done. Because it, as we said, I, you weren't there to teach me how to be an interior designer. I had to do all that stuff myself, or to m- the best of my ability at this stage in my life. So that part was nothing to do with it. What you taught me, and what I gained from, and I did the full framework, the 12 months, and then I did the Framework Express, which was just a recap and a faster version of that. I think you've called that Studio- The Express, right? 12 weeks, get it done. Yes. Studio S- di- meant, met a different group of girls and all that stuff. And then some coaching and other bits and pieces. And, we're f- obviously always in contact. So what it told me, what it informed me of is I was able to learn you only know what you know. And I didn't know anything about starting an interior design business at all. What I knew is I had good fundamental understanding of business operations and sales. That's what I had. That's what came with me. Then I needed to work out how I'm going to arrange all of that, and the framework enabled me to do that. It said, "You need this, and this is how you're gonna set it up. Your brand command, your value prop- your unique value proposition. Get your pricing sorted. Work out how you're gonna understand what, how you should be..." This was really critical. Game-changing, actually. Don't just charge 180 bucks an hour and go that's 10 hours work," whatever. It was factor in your unbillable time as well, right? So under- There's too much of it. It's more than the yeah. Oh, for sure. There's- And in the early days, for sure. And I'm now still, I would be behind for sure, because I'm still learning. I'm learning how to do stuff. Yes. But I'm okay with that, 'cause I'm investing in my business. and it's quite enjoyable, and I'm progressing with each project, so I'm okay with that. just knowing that how do I price this to not be too high, too low, but still recover what I should be recovering and get a little bit of profit out of it as well. So there are GPTs for that. Then there's all the practical stuff and all the social media if you wanna do all that stuff. and it just, creating a safe space. Did you skip module five ever? Tell me. Is it module five? I don't know. I wasn't listening I think so. The marketing and s- social media and stuff Oh, I was listening Yeah. I don't know. Yes, I was listening, and I was listening and going, "It's not I, it's not for me." Not for me. And that's great, because that's what you are supposed to design. Yeah. This whole podcast, Design Your Own Success. It's, you are supposed to pick and choose what's relevant and leave what isn't. Yeah. It was never about making tiny little franchises of my business. It was always- Yeah, if you want a pocket of advice, here's a micro-learning. Take it if you love it. Tell, argue with me if you want to. Or leave it on the table. It doesn't really bother me. Yeah. It's really about making sure that you've got everything on the menu that you're gonna need, and you just eat what you feel like. So that was firstly the most important or the best thing I ever did was join that. And again I take that back a step. And how did I get there? Because of a very sad time in my life that then took me on a trip where I had the time to put a podcast on and listen to something that was interesting for me. And it happened to be, just out of the millions of podcasts, happened to be that one podcast that talked about the course and the framework, and that's what led me to joining. And then I just c- couldn't believe what was, what I had in front of me here. And I knew that I had, I knew that I had the drives, the energy, the skills to do something with it. I just needed to know what it was and what the steps were. I just needed someone to show me the steps, and then I could back myself to do the work. So that was the number one best thing, and I absolutely would not be here where I am today, billing out and enjoying it, had I not done that. N- and I've said that to you personally before many times. Many times. Thank you. That, that it has been, it's changed my life literally. And then the other thing that I will say has been a very good decision from the outset is, outsourcing. Look, I, yeah, I can do SketchUp, but it'll take me six months to draw a floor plan. I'm not doing it. I don't care. I'm not interested. I'm, I'll just fling that to someone else and just go, "There you go. There's 500 bucks. Get it to me by Friday." Whatever, right? Yeah. I'll measure the room up. I'll tell them what we need, and then I don't, I want them to do that for me. Same with, I've got, found myself the most awesome lighting designer who is regional with me, and, I get him in on all my jobs. I'm working with a developer at the moment. So I've got the lighting designer, and it makes such a difference to the outcomes, that it's really great value for the client as well and for me, and we have a good time. And so outsourcing. And I outsource my website building. I outsource my lead market, a lead magnet. what else? Anything I can outsource that I'm not good at- I will recognize that. And I think that's, think, knowing what you're good at. and I think that's another thing- Yeah, you're not outsourcing, you're not outsourcing the sales. You're closing the sales. No you're not outsourcing the organization and the development of the systems and the processes and the things- Yeah that are your lane. it's so good for people to hear, though, because they think as designers we get trained in, like, where you study. You get trained to do a large range of things, and then your brain says you have to do all these things. You have to be in control of all these things. And outsourcing is something that is desperately needed around the three to four year mark when people are really burned out and really struggling, 'cause they, this project needs this on SketchUp, and this project's up to this in procurement. And I'm, there's so much going on in the pipeline, and they just think they have to do it all. So hearing someone just say so matter of fact, so casually I just understand. And we've talked about this many times, but you're billing you're on-billing the cost of the contractor, the cost of the lighting designer, et cetera. You're almost just connecting that to your homeowner and having them pay that invoice plus whatever it is for you to meet and brief them and whatnot. Yeah. It means that they get a benefit, 'cause they get access to a lighting designer at a B2B rate. So what they're charging you is not what they would charge that homeowner if that homeowner went to that lighting designer and said you do the lighting design, and Eva's gonna do the other interior design pieces." That's right. And that's a big understanding. I'm saying it out loud because people are listening to the podcast, and I know there's at least one person that just had a mic drop moment and had to stop mowing the lawns or whatever and went, "Hang on, what? I don't have to do it, and I don't have to pay for it either." 'Cause this is the mindset shift, is that designers want help. They ask someone, "Can someone do a B2B? Like, how much do you charge to do SketchUp?" Then they get the quote for that and they go, "Ugh, I'm not paying $400, 'cause I can actually do it. I just don't want to do it. I'll do it and save the $400." They're not seeing it in the way that it should be, which is okay, this element of the service costs the client $400, and I need to do a one-hour brief, so we'll put another 200 on that. It's, I'm gonna go out. It's a $600 line item for the 3D renders. Obviously I'm using random numbers, but for the 3D renders. And the homeowners can take it or leave it. If they take it, I book it in with the contractor for them, and they're getting that lower B2B rate. And, I just think that's such an important message to share, because the attitude has to change so you can get help. Yeah. I don't even give them the option. I just include it and say- Yeah "You're getting lighting design and you're getting a render, and here's-" Which is one way, obviously. But if you're nervous- Yeah you can also just price it- No, I just include it and take it or leave it. And, but I but importantly, I control the relationship. Yeah. I, so- They effectively act like your team. I'm sending the lighter- Yeah. Correct designer from Tablelands Interior Design- It all comes- coming over it's white labeled under my brand. And so they they the supplier invoices me. I put a fair margin on that to account for my time of attending every meeting, every discussion, checking every document. I'm there the whole time. Yeah. And communicating what you want. Yeah. And ma- you, you are- yep it's your design, it's just being executed- Yep elsewhere. And it has to be cohesive with the whole overall design. I can't let someone run off and take it in another direction. so I take full responsibility for it. So I do charge a, just a reasonable margin that just gets me back that time and that's good. And then, so again, as I said I see myself more as an orchestrator- than actually an executor. How I feel about my imaginary friends. I'm always talking about being the puppeteer and all the d- all the GPTs, all the different- Yeah Claude, like, all the different agents, they are definitely all of my puppets. And it's up to me to constantly keep everything smooth and running, and the show goes on, and it looks good. And, that's very much what all of us do essentially. It's, it's so lovely to r- reflectively have this conversation and see the change. For me, I get to witness from the first meeting, which is like, "I think I've got this idea. I think I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna attempt to do this. I'm thinking, I don't really know what I'm doing here. I will know, I know I can, I just don't know what it is," to, to come full circle and get to a point where we're having such confident conversations. There are clients in the pipeline, we've got meetings, we've got actuals. We're not just talking hypothetically about one day when my clients come. and I can see through the conversations it shines so brightly just how much that dedication, determination, but the work. You did the work. It's not like- I did the work. Yep you did not get the frame- you made the framework your full-time job for near on a year. Yes, I did. Yes. Yes, I did. And I think that people need to hear that because they're like, "Hey you just do this course, and you always get this." And it's I am not respon- I am not... What is the word I wanna say? It is not my glory for every person who's gone on to have these amazing careers. And I was reflecting only this week, I was looking through Instagram, and I was seeing original frameworkers from the very first cohort, and, one's in a magazine, one's flying to Sydney, one's doing... And the things that they, these girls are doing is incredible, but they did the work. They did a whole year, nine months with no clients. They did the crying on the shower floor for some of the it just depended. They had different kinds of breakdowns during the situation. But they mapped those processes, they thought about they intentionally built a business, and they're all thriving, and so are you. And I'm just so happy. Yeah. I think, and I think that's important to put out there, is I- I'm also very lucky in my stage in life, I don't have a young family. I have a husband who's requires, attention, stuff like that. Food. Still, whatever. I'm gonna get John on the podcast next. Tell John- You know that, right? Like I think John would have make a great podcast guest. He's very good. so I still, I, And we have our other business interests outside of this and do other things as well. I took this on, because I took early retirement. I was 60. I left my last workplace on my birthday, actually, and it was my 62nd birthday. So it's a couple of years ago that I actually left full-time work and gave myself, just a short break, and we were in the middle of moving. So I then picked a date and said, "As of this," whatever, "1st of September, it's Monday to Friday at the desk. normal hours." Okay. I get to the desk at 10:00, say, 'cause I do, gym and- Oh, I went to the gym first. I I've got a gym at home, so I did all that. I, it was important to do that. Yeah and, a bit of stuffing around in the morning and wasting time on the computer and just looking and online shopping and stuff like that. But then I, by, by, by 10 o'clock, I was at the desk till midday to take a lunch break, and then the afternoon session, and then wrap up at about 4 o'clock or whatever. And I did that five days a week, and still do that. I do that four days a week now. I take Fridays off and go to Bathurst on Friday, and have lunch and catch up with friends and stuff like that. But very, disciplined with my hours. don't work after in the evening, and try never to have to do anything on the weekend. so I for me, it was like just less of a transition because I went from that routine to this, but doing it myself. And I surprised myself as to how easy it was to stick to that plan, actually. Yeah. And it, I just loved it because it's always nice. Not everyone has the luxury. When I say luxury, but not everyone is in a position to work eight hours a day on something like the framework. It kind of gets- or Studio CEO or any of those things. People are panicked 'cause they're like, "Ah." But by the time they get to Studio CEO or Studio Build specifically, they're more scaling, so they've got a pipeline of projects that are keeping them very busy, and it's additional work. So it often feels heavy, 'cause you're like, "Oh my gosh," it's not like you can get to the desk at 6:00 PM and work until 12:30 every night to get that much amount of work done. So it's so nice, though, and refreshing, like when you were doing that, I was like, "Oh, you're gonna smash it," because you're foc- y- you went through and watched it all. Then you go back and do each activity in the manner and order that it's structured. Meant that you do get to a point where you're like I've finished with that. I don't have to open that anymore. I've got my own version of everything." Everything sits on wherever you wanted to put it, whether it's on locally, Google Drive, whatever you're doing. yeah, it was just nice to watch that, 'cause I watched the whole thing. Yeah. From day one, when you're sitting there with your- You did freshly sharpened pencils and- Yeah the book. And when I also said to you, "I don't... I don't wanna know about Notion. I can't stand Notion." It's like- Don't talk to me about social media. Don't tell me about Notion. I don't wanna know about that. I, I think, and that's maybe a function of being older, old and cranky, is you just go, "I'm not doing that. No. No. No. Not for me." And having the, the confidence to say I'm not gonna do that. And I don't... I just can't be bothered, or I just don't think it's gonna work for me." And not being worried about anything, just it's just- From a coaching perspective, we actually really appreciate any sort of brutal honesty, because why take you up a Notion tree you don't wanna be in? It's such a waste of my time. It's a waste of your time. It's better for me to go, "Okay. Let me look at a couple of tech alternatives, and you can take it from there." Like- Yes "Have you seen Trello? Do you wanna have a look at this?" And it's Or, "Why don't you pay for Programma? Why don't you get on a paid subsc- we just- We tried to looked at solutions. We didn't just go, me say, "Let me fit this round ho- round peg in a square hole over and over." Yeah. And you just fight it. So I, I actually- Yes really like it when you know what you want. And when Notion finally dumped me, I don't know, it just locked me out, I thought, "Good. Better. Don't care." See ya. Bye, Felicia. But and I... so I did, yeah, I did actually decide to join Trello. Not Trello. Programma. Programma. Which is, was game-changing for me. I personally like that. Again, I'm, I'm- I'm very step-by-step systematic, so- Yeah yeah, that's fine And what you deliver, the nature of what you deliver becomes quite repeatable because you're choosing- Correct the same sorts of finishes- Yeah that are your preferred finishes. So once everything's clipped and in the library, once everything's set up and you've got workflows and stuff, it's a no-brainer for you to be on something. I never have any problem. People always think I'm, like, anti-Programmer. And yes, I use Project Studio, but that's because I teach. Broadly, at the beginning, everyone I taught had no income. I'm lucky to have them inside of the framework, the original framework- correct. Yep which finishes on the end of next month. For good, it's done. It's I can't be frivolous with other people's investments. They don't have the income. I had to find a way to "I can teach you what you will get from Programmer in a free application, and then when the time comes that you have paying clients, you can make that decision whether you move across or you change or you love it. That's completely up to you." Yeah. It was certainly good up until that time for me, and it helped me in my learning stages, and I continue to learn. But now I... It's good. It's streamlined, really- Yeah for me. Perfect. Thank you for joining me today. That's been lovely. I think anyone who's got even remote interest in a- approaching builders, looking at those relationships- even looking at those packages. There are a lot of designers who I think, romanticize this sort of idea of a finish and fixtures package that is sold in partnership with a builder. But I'm not quite sure how... Is that viable? Is that real? Can you have a business like that? I think it's nice for them to hear, "Yeah, you can. You just have to get on the phone. You have to go and meet some builders, and you have to go and design it, that, so that it does benefit." And then you don't muck around with having to yeah, proposals per project and looking into what should I price this one and what should I price that one. You've just got such clear parameters. I need to sell X amount in this quarter to hit my target. Correct. And those targets and things change and evolve as you go along, and I think it's really good to have that in mind. But you also need to be a bit flexible. Things have changed- And you're getting faster, too. Don't forget, when you go do your second Q4- or your third Q4, the way you execute is so much faster than the first- couple of times you would've done it- and been like, "Oh, what do I do next?" Watch, tick this box and move to the next thing. It's m- it's more organic. It just starts to happen. It is. And you g- you... Look, you just set yourself up in a way that works for you and your lifestyle. We're very excited. We're about to take our first big, serious motorhome trip. Gray nomads, all that sort of stuff. Yes. And we're going into the outback, and we'll be gone for, two and a half months or so. And what's really- Good, is I have set myself up that I have done all my site visits or I'll have all my site visits finished, all my measurements done for all the projects I'm working on. And the rest I can do on the road. Amazing. Which is so good. My work is portable and there's a lot of long hours in the outback where y- you'll be looking for something to do. And thank goodness for Starlink, we can operate anywhere. But it's nice to have that ability to take that work with me, yeah. Yeah. I think about that all of the time, just the ability to I'm not there are no roots put in anywhere. I can leave any time, I can go and any adventure that my family wants to take, my business will survive it. It's very portable, it's very adaptable. But you do see probably just that lag in relationships. It's only two months, so it's fine. When you get back, you go back and hang out. Pop in and check in with everybody. Oh, yeah. No, they keep go- I keep that momentum going. Yeah. Yeah. And you're staying working. I just, I j- Yeah. Yeah. But I just wanted to wrap up and say something about second career, second stage. Being a bit older, going into this. There's lots of people that hit 60 and whatever and go, "Oh," "I'm retiring. I'm just going to do nothing- Okay or join the garden club." Which is all great, and we're in all of that. Garden club and all the local stuff, and the community stuff, which is so rewarding. But I would say to anyone that is worried about feeling they're past it, don't. As long as you can read and you can tackle a bit of, tech and that sort of stuff, ke- I ke- have very much kept myself current with all that, then sky's the limit. and someone can always show you the AI and the tech. Not a barrier. I coach a lot of people that are more mature and that, I do need to coach it in a different way, but they're very capable. They just need practice and hands-on. It needs to be a little bit different to sending a, you don't just send a tutorial. You do it with them, and then they get it. And we've come a long way that's true. We have. Thank you, Eva. I will, a- as always, will catch up with you when I see you. And, thanks for coming on the podcast. Thank you. It's been an absolute honor to be on the podcast. Thanks, Rhiannon. No problems, babe. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success: From Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me, and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers just like you. For your daily dose of design business tips, and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow @oleander_and_finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www.oleanderandfinch.com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.