Student Ecoliteracy: The Publisher

Our last episode was coined "Student Ecoliteracy, The Author" which explored Katherine Pryor's journey of writing children's books about nature and garden subjects.  In this companion episode, we talk to Katherine's first publisher, Philip Lee of Readers to Eaters.  They specialize in publishing kids books about nutrition and school gardens!  

Transcript

Transcript Student Ecoliteracy: The Publisher

00:00:05 Rick

Welcome to the award winning farmer school podcast, where you or your stories of how you thrive and farmers prosper when they learn how to grow cook and eat delicious nutritious local food in schools across the country and the world

00:00:20 Michelle

hey everyone we're your host Michelle Markesteyn

00:00:23 Rick

and I’m still rick sherman.  And today we're doing the second part in a two part series, that's right, you do that the second part if it's a two part series..  but we already interviewed of we're doing an ecolliteracy bit where we introduced an author to you all,  Catherine Pryor on the last episode and this episode we're going to hear the other side of the page as it were.. the publisher.. so with us today we have Philip Lee with Readers to Eaters, in a publishing house out of San Francisco California.  Is that correct Philip?

00:01:03 Philip Lee

yes in San Francisco

00:01:05 Rick

now Philip and I go way back, we met I think the same time as I met Catherine at a farm to school conference and I and at the time I think you were based out of Seattle but you since relocated down to where the mother ship is so to speak, is that correct?

00:01:22 Philip Lee

yes that's correct yeah 

00:01:25 Rick

When we were prepping for this and from my standpoint one of the few publishers that specifically market to youth and teaching kids about where their food comes from.  I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that,  like we're talking how do we speak, how do we talk about nutrition and food and what is different about it from your end?

00:01:54 Philip Lee

Yeah, well again first of all thanks for having me on the program. Love the show. So I have this company called readers eaters I started with my wife future lee and we started back in two thousand nine so just in fifteen years and it's and it's interesting what we do is we tell stories about things that we publish books about children 's books about, and it's interesting because a lot of people think well books about food means there are a couple of publishers   or we help tell books about health and nutrition well maybe about books is about food, maybe about books don't have recipes in it.  It's not about cooking and the health and nutrition part is also kind of it's there but it's assumed we're not nutritionist we're not trying to tell people what to eat, we just want to tell people about food.  Importantly we tell stories about people behind the food,   so food in any way is our way to introduce kids to the people who grow it cook it and provide it in our community in all different ways and then another element to is that we try to include a cultural connection to what does this mean to us as a family as cross cultural   nationalities   and so on.  So a lot of love stories involve that   and I don't mean again like   who cooks it but how do we prepare whether for traditions   all these different things and I’ll share some specific examples but that's really our focus when we start.

00:03:22 Rick

ok

00:03:26 Philip Lee

But we started a company again like back in 2009 partly and I think two thousand nine as a real kind of a critical point because we start about five or six weeks after Michelle Obama started the white house garden   and then at the time I think that same spring we went to a Portland Oregon for the I think it was the national farm to cafeteria conference.  And I personally met a lot of   food garden educators there and I was really inspired honestly and I have been a publisher for a long time previously saw another company.  It's called me and books in New York.  And it was like my under first publishers about diverse books   children 's and so I and I come to this conference at the firm the tape conference and again I was really inspired by the work the conversation convicted of the people I do think something that's missing is like again us since I’ve been in children's book already.  My connection like kind of like my partners have been teachers and parents and at this at the front table conference I asked some question of where the teachers is that something that I can   is that a space that i can contribute and bring more people into the conversation about food education is understanding about food,   and that kind of like it's kind of my entry point I feel like there's an opportunity there.  So we kind of my wife and i kind of jumped in without even a career business plan.  What exactly we're going to.  But we just feel like we can maybe love the people in that space and we want to be part of that community   and also want to actually think I come from publishing background.  My wife comes from the food background, a food ethnographer, so she studies American free culture you look more as the anthropologist

00:05:23 Rick

what is that - food ethnographer?

00:05:27 Philip Lee

ethnography yeah.  Like that's a good anthropology kind of methods,   of studying culture   and in fact for the last ten years she's been the food ethologist for google,   and probably what brought us down to the bay area

00:05:43 Rick

wow

00:05:45 Philip Lee

and so she's become.. and when you say that's starting free culture it's not just asking people like what they eat but really by understanding   you can ask people how their attitude about   of course climate issues and   all kinds of subjects.  It's certainly which part of shape how they're going to eat right without forks,   and so and it's generational. So she makes up how   baby boomers eat differently from their   their and gen x’ers different from the gen z children and so on and so.  And so it's really kind of combining our interests and her interests and bits and kind of our company's called leadership to something.  Are they leader because they come from folks and choose the either because she comes from food   there's that too.  Plus it also kind of meter to each to reflect a lot of the community the partnership that we do maybe I can get into that a little bit more in the in the little bit yeah but that's really kind of the reach of how we started this company.

00:06:50 Rick

you said you were going to give a couple examples of your cultural highlights and we're looking at a table full of your books right now which i thought over the years and you've sent me some to share.

00:07:01 Philip Lee

Great, yeah.

00:07:05 Rick

But yeah could you share some examples of that you were thinking of?

00:07:10 Philip Lee

Yeah, well I’ll do it kind of somewhat chronologically  .

so again we first started in 2009. I mentioned we started the company.  We didn't start right away as a publisher, we start off as a pop-up bookstore.

00:07:25 Rick

interesting

00:07:26 Philip Lee

A booth at farmers markets.  So we were really   we were based in the Seattle area where actually Bellevue Washington. And so we were kind of in across many of the farmer’s markets across that that part of the Puget Sound area of Washington going to different farmers markets selling books about food and we were just learning for us to connect with the with the free community the growers or other educators,  , and there was interesting for us.  I think the person I learned a few things is that first of all again people coming to buy a book someday really interested in stories about food, but particularly I mean our best-selling books are children 's books.  The parents are one really want to have engaged a conversation with their children and again this goes back to how things might have changed the idea if you look back to that time the whole idea by buying organic from the farmers markets was still   so we're much.  But I mean I was getting parents who are buying let's say conventional eggs for their buy like   organic eggs   for their for their children   and buying separately and they really still trying to understand the value behind what's different right and so and half that conversation with their kids   buying certain vegetables were important.  So again, since I come from a publisher background so we start off the bookstore selling different publishers books. But all of a sudden, and still wasn't enough   I felt like   it's not like there's a huge variety of books out there and so I just felt like well there's an opportunity for me to go back to what I’ve been doing all along which is creating books.  So that's really kind of struck the idea of why launching books and along the way, and so I really start developing ideas of books that i want to do, and then I met one actually a personal friend who helped me a school librarian Rick Swan who also helped write a book about school gardens and so it was so perfect for us.  And so we just start talking about it and because this one about first project simultaneously I was also working in a food bank on weekends and then at the food bank we were at this one table next to this young couple who are giving plant starts to the families and it was Katherine Pryor and her husband.

00:09:59 Michelle

oh my gosh

00:10:01 Philip Lee

And so we just started.. and I just thought what a brilliant idea instead of just getting things

giving up plant starts, who knows what to do with them on the day.. allow the family at this food bank where   Latino families and tomatoes, common food.. there's just like.. there are other people they like giving out and like showing people how to do a kale salad which is great but it's not necessarily connected with the people.. where there the families who were there.. so we just start having this conversation with Kathy  and we became friends and it wasn't like right away but months   maybe even more than a year. Then   she mentioned that she had story,  and in fact she just wanted to ask to take a look at it because I’m a publisher, and then I looked at it and I said I want it.

00:10:55 Michelle

wow

00:10:55 Philip Lee

And that's a big finish.  And so that's really   so our first.. so we   get children's books about a year and half to two years and sometimes even longer to make a book.  So we had started complete 2009.  We started having these ideas   2010 maybe and then the books didn't come out.  The first two books didn't come out till 2012  , and so that's really kind of about the launch and then that should also in that year, 2012.  That, Rick you're familiar with,  Feeding the Young Athlete.  Also we also published in the fall of that year 2012, so that's our first three books…   that they publish and Feeding the Athlete a little bit older and probably our only truly cook book.  We want to also a book that engaged motor meter you just think about food and especially the order to get the less likely what we find is that they would listen to the parents or like make them move they start to make their own food choices but they would listen to the coaches, would listen to because it connects with their activity and honestly even as a parent we would just say oh any sports team and go do an activity and they go and have a donut party afterwards and that that's not exactly what your body needs   and   again my dream with this is some work and   we're looking at how the gateway was marketing to young athletes and then we just said well maybe that's not really what your athletes need  .. so again so we met this nutrition professor and also co professor at the Seattle University, and so we just start talking and that's how that book feeding young athlete came about. So in the beginning so we come up with this three stories.. and   you got to talk to Catherine already and so it’s a really great way to introduce kids,   to not just think about growing up but to play them school garden about a girl who was not a fan of spinach but had to grow it and mostly   and they finally have the taste and try it.  The school garden and joined it   and it's the conversation we wanted, Look at subsequently that meeting with the books that follows is that new.  And here's a story and we could see when kids read these stories hear these stories they are so much more inclined to go try it because there's a in this case of this is a fictional story. But still it's a person that they they're not just reading about how spinach is good for you. They're experiencing what a girl in this.. goes through her..   and that   of and then trying something and we don't want to say hey like the first glance is great, it's amazing.. where's this been all along.. with it's that's not how kids really experience the first time but she experiences first food because she's reluctantly tasted it,  ..  and she buys into.. there's a crunch to it and her reaction is bad.  And like not bad for a lot of these kids, it's a win   it's like it's a great experience and that's really how we want to approach it, want to get kids away from back and then. we don't even want the label kids picky eaters and sometimes it could be even just particular preferences since then. Well we can't do that.  Also food security in some of our other books that we publish we're always trying to introduce kids to flavor and texture   and it could be a story about a person and it could be about.  But we find that in order to get kids away from duck and dump  .. I think we first have to have the vocabulary the basic vocabulary to flavor like is it sour and sweet bitter   like   if they have those words they sure can use with their food, a little more delicious on their own,   I mean even with again working for us working garden educator and one of the wonderful things about working the garden is that they can pick up something and it right there right..?   and then but you also need a bowl of salad  , it's like it tastes a little bit better with a little dressing on it  .. rather than just eating it straight from   .. but then I’m not.. it smells like the flavor   just when they understand there's a   all these like against our sweet and bitter, and so on. People have preferences and my wife likes it more acidic so she puts more vinegar into it.  I like my more sweet   so i put like some berries into my salad,   and again because they are picky, but they just.. they have a different preference   and then once kids understand these basic concepts then we also introduce the control conversation because   you think they are like a standard, like bitters,   on the sour side.  But what happened was like   then I left it smell on then I grew up eating broccoli and   they tend to crinkle their nose a bit but it's like well it's if you understand that our people and their like that are like bitter is ok and can we talk like we do coffee   and then they have a different connection to.. like my wife who is Korean and she likes your food   and even more like.. and so   that's a cultural difference. And then we can move on to the good friend who's from Thailand, and he said well the flavor of their culture is sour and so again kids tend to crinkle their nose at sour and it's like well   sour can be very important to certain culture and then when I open the immigrant population of America.  It's sweet because we put sugar on everybody   and so this is the conversation we can even do that   the symbols for second grade or even fifth grade school level some understanding of that tase and so just being able.. it happened to articulate it and share it and for them to even it.. see that's why somebody else may like this food, because   better is ok, or sour is ok,  .. it's not a bad word.

00:18:00 Rick

there's one thing in our farm the school world I hear from time to time over and over again.  When you're teaching kids about school garden produce or whatever it's called don't yuck my yum..  you ever heard that?

00:18:14 Philip Lee

absolutely

00:18:14 Rick

And that kind of resonates really well, culturally or whatever. What I mean, might not be what you're used to what you were growing up with what I grew up with, and it's ok to try different things   now and then the important thing is if you don't like it that's ok, but at least gives them the opportunity to try it.  I think that's really good but in terms of some of the specifics. I saw your books like you talked about actual you talked about cultural differences but we there's some people like Zora, who is a fictional character, so yeah but then you have Sandor Katz and farmer Allen and real people in real real places that you highlight too which I love, fantastic.

00:19:07 Philip Lee

yeah and thanks because that's exactly what I was going to go next actually.    we published this free series and it's starting with this book that you mentioned Farmer Will Alen.  And Will Allen is a very well known urban farmer out in Milwaukee and who won the MacArthur Genius Award by using aquaponics and hydroponics   and  ..  methods and I think that that also has a kind of a personal revelation to me too because of that book again we want to tell the story again when we start publishing there weren't a lot of books about urban farming in particular and so we were very interested in this idea and we want to tell the story a number of years ago.  I was giving a talk at a high school of social justice conference because and it's it's really interesting to talk to   high school, older kids.  And what happens at my previous company that I work with books I published Rosa Parks.  She was one of my authors and I traveled with her and I was asked to speak at the social justice conference in Seattle,   because I could share my personal connection with Rosa Parks and honestly as your educators know   when missing from the kids and they're not interested, they get to be restless and they start checking their phones,   and then I was just feeling a little bit nervous and then when the kids raised it says   now like   this is like number of years ago and I said well I'm just publishing this book about this fantastic guy in Milwaukee.  And he said for you kids are getting involved   you can be part of food movement today and have to say and i said like when all got started because he wanted to do a youth program it wasn't even he was like a food and farming person, begin with in fact it was a basketball star.  But he was involved because he won't provide jobs for..  but then he also want to   address food access issues in his community.  I can just feel that energy of the class change right then.  All these kids were getting very excited.  Then I kind of came away from that from that day and came and talked to my wife said now we are only going to do biographies living people, not that I’m a big history fan and so I want kids should know about history.  At least for our approach of storytelling readers eaters we want to understand that the food movement is going on now and they can give involved now.  The books that you mentioned so started with the and then the next book we did with was with like with Alice Waters, and the Trip to Delicious. It was also about her starting edible schoolyard.  And then we did Roy and the Chef Roy on the street food remix   the the guy who started the food truck movement, and that became kind of national trend.  And then Sander Katz and the Tiny Wild about fermentation.. really well-known fermentation writer, an educator and then most recently designer this book that just came out a few months ago called forming ebay screen garden life about the first children's book about a woman farmer was encountered by USDA until 2002.

00:22:53 Rick

yeah

00:22:55 Philip Lee

and and so this the first book and this is like and so these are all people who are still alive and not just because they're famous people and food but the way we want to profile them is they are using food as a way to grow our common..   it's it's not just about what they do but it's like how they kind of connect other people into the into the free education and into the.. actually it started with the.. well it's always like there's a line in there so Allen can see that other people can't see when you see kids he sees farmers   and that's always plant the idea in my head.  It's like it's all people who's been able to see something   beyond beyond the off field that's on the plate   and and that's how we go about   kind of profiling people. It's not easy honestly to profile people, it's kind of a moving target because there were changes and the islands aren't closed.. and rich oils and stuff.. a restaurant that you bespoke but   and it got like great accolades but yet it also closed and kids to me and say well does that mean that failed? No.  And again it leads to another complex spectrum high school kids they say well it will only run a farm for thirty years and closed it.  I don't know if that’s a failure and even if Roy once ran a restaurant for two years, and it closed..  but he said his goal was let it go like success doesn't by making millions of dollars out of this success is shining a light on what act into south central.  It's providing jobs that just community and local emergency now   just because my restaurant did not continue now other people can know how to do this better in these communities so I mean so we can have these much deeper conversation even with the children's picture books into high school kids and so so that's one and i want to give an example of how we tell stories about people.  it's not just about food, right? So with the world book again we want the book because the truck is cool, kids love it but at the back the book we also say it all comes together because of the 1965 immigration act and because only after 1965 when new immigrants were when the policy opened up the new immigrants came especially asian infants to to america and all these new food was able to come to come to our play basically 1965 like sushi came to america in the early seventies, and it turns out and this other stuff like Dave Cheng in New York that’s really famous or like Korean chef is kind of having a moment in the US right now. Aa lot of chefs were born in the early seventies because they have the children up in 1965 post 1965 immigrants.  And so it's a way to look at immigration that again older kids like   how about different connections, because immigration can be a political subject.

00:26:21 Rick

yes

00:26:22 Philip Lee

and so it's a different conversation for us to understand integration and that's our approach   and like instead, we get a book Thunder Cats. And Thunder Cats is.. so many chefs and farmer’s market folks that follows what fermentation implementation is great because there's really not a right way to do fermentation, so kids can get involved and we do these workshops with kids to do fermentation by making crunchy kind of combination of sauerkraut and kimchi and it's a great way to introduce kids to again.  It's like why would you add anywhere and the fact that you squeeze it and the texture changes on you right there no matter what..  ten minutes ok   and again plus say well again this is even for garden folks.  As you start with cabbage but to make it more sweet you add you can add carrot you can add a pear, It's not like add sugar.  And so that's another way for kids to understand the taste behind the food that they're eating from the garden.  We're doing a lot of partnerships but at like Migrant summer meal programs   because they don't have to have a kitchen to do a cooking program or at least a free program   because fermentation was all like main temperature food.  And so we don't need it, don't need a unit and so it's really great as a way to introduce kids.

00:27:49 Rick

yeah well

Philip we've talked about so far about food nutrition how it's different how we talk about that. We've talked about the cultural differences with some of the books fictional characters as well as nonfictional and cultural references.  I'm kind of curious,  is there any area that is on your radar that you haven't dealt yet or what's in the future for readers theaters where where do you see yourself going in the future? 

00:28:18 Philip Lee

And again like this just goes back to when we first started people keep looking, I just published books about and this goes..  and we always feel like true disagreements connector and they kind of name any subject and i can give you food as an example so of course again we talk about   helping helping nutrition is kind of the baseline that we use certainly we use food to talk about stem education but as you can see some of those we can use it to talk about immigration.  Can talk about social issues.  We can talk about certainly climate issues, and so again we can springboard to almost every subject and use food back at something that is very concrete, like we can talk about climate and so overwhelming to most kids that it's like where to go with that, right?  But then if you talk about back to what does that mean to your plate then we  understand then we can take these small steps.

00:29:19 Rick

We want to thank you Philip so much for being on the show today again! 

00:29:24 Philip Lee

I truly, really enjoyed talking to you both, yeah thank you

00:29:27 Michelle

Thank you!  Farm to School was written, directed, and produced by Rick Sherman and Michelle Markesteyn with production support from Leann Lochner at Oregon State University, and was made possible by a grant from the United States Department of Agriculture.

00:29:41 Rick

The content and ideas for the farm to school podcast is not necessarily reflect the opinions of oregon state university, oregon department of education the united states department of agriculture.. or reader state readers! The USDA, Oregon department of ED and oregon state university are equal opportunity providers and employers

00:30:00 Michelle

Do you want to learn more about farm to school.. bees or worms? Check out other episodes show notes, contact information and so much more by googling up farm to school podcast osu

00:30:12 Rick

would love to hear from you!  Please stop by the website michelle just mentioned to say hello or give us an idea for a feature podcast.  Thanks everyone and thanks again Phillip!

00:30:23 Michelle

bye phillip

00:30:23 Philip Lee

thank you.  Talk to you soon, bye