School-Supported Agriculture: Alice Waters Reimagines Farm to School

When Alice Waters speaks about food, she’s not just talking about what’s on the plate—she’s talking about culture, community, and the future of our children. Best known as the founder of the legendary Chez Panisse restaurant and one of the people that started the farm-to-table movement, Waters has spent decades proving that how we grow, prepare, and share food can transform lives. Now, she’s taking that philosophy beyond the kitchen and into the classroom with a bold vision: School-Supported Agriculture. It’s more than a meal program—it’s a movement to connect students directly with local farms, nourish bodies and minds, and plant the seeds of ecological literacy in every school garden. MM

Transcript

"School-Supported Agriculture: Alice Waters Reimagines Farm to School"

When Alice Waters speaks about food, she’s not just talking about what’s on the plate—she’s talking about culture, community, and the future of our children. Best known as the founder of the legendary Chez Panisse restaurant and one of the people who started the farm-to-table movement, Waters has spent decades proving that how we grow, prepare, and share food can transform lives. Now, she’s taking that philosophy beyond the kitchen and into the classroom with a bold vision: School-Supported Agriculture. It’s more than a meal program—it’s a movement to connect students directly with local farms, nourish bodies and minds, and plant the seeds of ecological literacy in every school garden.

Alice waters

Transcript

00:00:01 Rick

Hey Michelle, Are you ready for some farm to school action? Let's do this.

00:00:15 Michelle

Welcome to the farm to school podcast, where you'll hear cows, chickens and lots of stories of how you thrive and farmers prosper when we learn how to grow, cook, and eat delicious, nutritious local foods in schools across the country..

00:00:29 Rick

And the world. Hi, everybody. We're your hosts. I'm Rick Sherman.

00:00:32 Michelle

And I'm Michelle Markesteyn and we are farm to school coordinators in the state of Oregon. But we are talking about farm to school all over the United States and the world. And one of the interesting things is that, you know, the first school garden. As far as we can tell, was in 1891.

00:00:51 Rick

About that. Where was that at, do we know? I know Portland had one in 1900, right? 1919. We have. We had a couple up there, but yeah, Montavilla neighborhood.

00:01:03 Michelle

And you'll put show notes, right? Cause I know you've had presentations on the history of school gardens in Oregon.

00:01:06 Rick

I do. I do yeah. So how does this fit into today's guest?

00:01:11 Michelle

OK, so this is really exciting. Big picture thinking. The interest in and funding for from the school, school, garden-esque things have ebbed and flowed over the years since the late 1800’s.  And so like we had our big peak. Remember we met with Rose Hayden Smith earlier? She's an earlier podcast episode we had and she really documented the United States School Garden Army. And both of this. Yes. And then it was 1946 when we had our first school lunch…

00:01:34 Rick

History.

00:01:41 Michelle

So think about that. It's never been 100 years, so you know that was kind of the first wave I'm making all this up and then interested in funding for a decrease in total for his 70s. Rachel Carlson. And there was a lot more interest in it because of environmental education is an obvious way to get kids out into the nature during the school day and have that and again kind of interest in funding decreased. But you know 1996 was about the time when it was the first farm to school… We called the 3rd wave and that is marked by a number of different things, but as the first time and why we're seeing this huge trajectory and growth now because it's the coming together of doing these programs and activities for education. Health and Wellness, the environment and the economy, and we have all those different threads coming together. You really can go further together. And one of the people who was pivotal at this time of the third wave is our very special guest today, Alice Waters.

00:02:49 Alice Waters

Schools supported agriculture. You know, I say that and instead of farm to school?

00:02:58 Michelle

Tell me about that. Why is that?

00:03:00 Alice Waters

Right. Because it's really school to Farm. The farms are the ones that are feeding us and the farmer and I want that person to be celebrated. We did that at Chez Panise when we first started to talk directly from Bob Connard and he put his name over there and Masumoto Peaches. And people would come in and see those Peaches coming. They made the names of the farmers and we bought directly from. That's what's important from my point of view. Here all the money goes to the farmers, the ranchers, the people who grow the food produce it.

00:03:53 Michelle

So do you think renaming it in school supported agriculture versus farm? The school? Is it operationally different?

00:04:03 Alice Waters

It's probably for some that I might call farm to school and Jen Newsom’s program, but this is an idea that I had after all the wonderful farmers markets that have popped up in this country in the last few years and there's your community supported agriculture. And so I thought if this could be school supported agriculture, people could understand that this is really your local people. And it's meaningful because the farmer’s first. And the farmer is first.

00:04:57 Michelle

Well, there's so many amazing things happening around the world. While we also have a lot of worries and headwinds and I know you have a very loud megaphone and I'm just wondering what your advice is for others who may not have such a loud microphone or megaphone available to them in their own community.

00:05:21 Alice Waters

Well, I can't… I just know from Chez Panise which is in it's 53rd year is that It's very important for the farmer to bring the food to Chez Panise and take back all the compost to the farm so that he can farm organic regenerative to see him pull down what's up there and put it in. And so I have try to think of what how could address climate and health and values most effectively, and we know that it's the people around the world care about food and farmers and education. And we can't do anything in this country that wouldn't be global. Because that's the only way we'll be able to make change, and that's also the way that we're going to be able to use what everybody has known for someone around the world, whether it's about regenerative Ag, whether it's something to do with just distribution of food, but I know that Slow Food is very interested in this and I know the King Charles is very interested in this. I was just there with them in England. And... It paused. It paused. Because I mean, sadly, it wasn't that schools for that agriculture, but they are so serious about it and informed in so many ways that we are not informed yes.

00:07:29 Rick

Interesting. We just literally what 2 days…? 2 days ago? Last week we interviewed a lady, Jenny Devine, who was the I think she's the manager for the Farmers Union in England. And they were talking about their farm to school program in England. And they're very interesting to us in some ways. America has been, you know, in the forefront and has a lot of things that we've done in the past and they might be considered behind us than other ways. They're ahead of us and other ways. But it was really interesting getting that perspective from overseas.

00:08:12 Alice Waters

Yes indeed. Well, I have read a book called We are what we eat. What I wanted to know was how we lost all of our values in such a short period of time. Because I grew up in the 40’s, and my parents had a victory garden, and on and on. It wasn't until the 50s and fast food was introduced. And you know, on our Internet and we spread around the world. And we want how the Slow Food movement came into being? They were trying to put a McDonald's in at the Spanish steps in Rome. Thank God sanity prevailed, but it's something that I think that people really, really care about. And of course, and that we have lost, I think our values because we lost our connection to the people who are food, I'm never ate anything, when I grow up in New Jersey, that wasn't right there from New Jersey and tomatoes were gone I cried. But you know, it's what I learned when I went to France in 1965.  And I therefore eating in that slow food way. And I said what, why is it so delicious? And it's because it was just picked. And it was brought to the restaurant in season. Exactly.

00:10:03 Rick

I think I might have an answer for you. In in terms of like, why we've lost our values and I want I'd like your thoughts on this. My parents grew up in the depression.

00:10:11 Alice Waters

Yes.

00:10:16 Rick

And I think, you know, it could be argued that like when the women of America went to the workforce and they came home after a long days of work and they didn't really want to cook, you know, like and from scratch and everything. And my mom, I remember only eating mashed potatoes. I have the exact opposite experience you did? I only have mashed potatoes from the box and I didn't know any different and I thought potatoes were terrible until my wife said, Oh my gosh, you don't make them from scratch from real potatoes and you know, you boil them and you mash them and they're so much more wonderful. But my mom was really interested in in convenience. And was like, Oh my goodness, I cook so much. And so I think they lost that in one generation from that, you know.

00:11:07 Alice Waters

Thank you. Oh, I think we did. We were losing it in the 30s for sure because of the fashion and people's need to work and all of that. But the people who had victory gardens during the war, I think they got those things back and my parents were.  Carlton Frederick was on the radio that my mother listened to him and I had to have friends with brown bread sandwiches. But I just know that everybody on the planet basically did not import food from any place else except coffee, tea or spices. Before you know 1950 and that's really when things changed significantly because we were, you know, getting cheaper avocados in Mexico, but they were picked when they weren't ripe. And they never get ripe. They get soft and that may be an avocado to some people, but it's not to me. I want that great taste and I guess I'm really know that this works because of Chez Panise. We've been doing it really very seriously for 45 years. And I just became you know the farmers became my friends, and I put their names on the menu. That really helped. But I know from the Edible Schoolyard project, which I've had for 30 years with teenagers, teenagers, six 7th and 8th graders, 800 of them.  That when they grow it and when they cook it, they all eat it. I mean, I'm not even talking. I mean, I'm talking about taste, but it's the process of them engaged. And when you're cooking it, it's theirs, and they will eat it and to see it, these teenagers eating this cooking, this is still to me. I know it works. And so I just feel like this is the best way to bring the values of sharing with our democracy. But you like this or that. Would you like to taste this? You're handing plates across the table. And you're really thinking about other people.

00:14:04 Michelle

And I was talking about the edible schoolyard. I first met you, oh 20 years ago years ago, I think about how much has changed since then. And I'm wondering what advice you have for us, even just here in Oregon. So since that time, you know, we now have 20 percent, 22% of all the food schools purchase are locally.

00:14:27 Alice Waters

I was just up in Portland. And I was just blown away and I went to schools and went to France providing schools with food. And it was really so heart warming for me, and so hopeful to me. Everyone involved in that that book, 7500 schools around the world that's a come from one school in Berkeley. He started them, you know, they started 6 schools around the country to make sure that it worked in all different climates and all different cultures. So we had one in New Orleans, there’s one in North Carolina, one in the Bronx, one in upstate New York. And I'm just so happy to see that they all worked and so they helped to spread the word around the world. But every year we do a training at the end of the year. And people come and then, like, take home, take that home. And that's how it got to 75 hundred.

00:15:52 Michelle

Amazing, yeah. So we actually in Oregon have about 800 school gardens and almost half the schools in our state. And I just think like I still get the sense that we're not done. There's more.

00:16:04 Alice Waters

You aren’t. You aren't.

00:16:07 Michelle

Yeah. So what you know and as part of our statewide team, you know, there's always this sense of unsatisfaction cause just when we get close to the goal line, you know. About to make a goal, we move the goal post. And So how will we know we're successful and that we've arrived. Like what do you think the vision according to..?

00:16:28 Alice Waters

I think the actual schools which that is served with students sitting down to eat. It's really the ultimate proof of concept where that food is purchased locally, organically and all of that, but that that it is part of the school day to sit down and eat together. For me, that's the proof of concept. I went to a Slow Food gathering in Florida.  Do you know how many school gardens there are? 300 in Miami and I couldn't believe it. I really couldn't. I mean no one has told me about that before. I was invited to speak and I went there just a couple months ago and I was so impressed. I mean, one of the main people that supplies the school is a regenerative garden with huge greenhouse. So we can stay open all year long. It's like Elliot Coleman up in Maine. Just they're growing all the food for the schools. And it's it just was so inspiring, you know, and it is something else that's inspiring yourself. It's that the mayor of Paris, do you know about her? She decided about a year ago that she was only going to have regenerative organic food within 250 miles of Paris. And then in one year, they're 2/3 of getting it done.

Is that’s a little bit the Chez Panise story because once we put out the word that we would buy the food at the real cost at the what we pay, we will find the food straight from your farm and of course, that's a huge amount of money that they get that's extra. And so they all want to come to.. we made a map of California we don't have I have it around here some place here I know it did, but it should have had about 150 farms and ranches and all that wanted to sell to us, and the only types, willing to you know, drive a couple of hours to get it to us, it's really amazing. But I know that the key to it is not only honoring the farmers in every way we can, whether it's not, it's on the menu or just a thank you big time. It's really just getting the real cost for the food, but having somebody take a piece for delivery. And I think the most important thing for Chez Panise is getting to know those people who know so much, I mean, we only thought they were five colors of radiccio here, but it turns out there are 15. I mean what we get now and I'm sure there are more than that.

00:20:04 Michelle

The moment..  it's radiccio’s moment at the time of this recording.

00:20:16 Rick

So Alice, one thing Michelle and I were discussing before when we were doing research on you and edible schoolyard and looking at your journey you have. So many we will we're sure put in notes in our show notes section about your books, your, your children's books, your different podcast you've been on.  If you could go back in a time machine to when this all started, when the school movement, would you do anything different if you had a magic wand? I'm sure there's lots of life lessons in there, but maybe they're essential. Yeah. Would you do anything different?

00:20:58 Alice Waters

I think the only disappointment that I really have was I had enough time to be at Martin Luther King to decide. Design a cafeteria that could accommodate both kids sitting down. And when they told me that they could not change. The system that I had to have somebody who is Superintendent of schools, that that's the only way that they could make that decision even though the Principal totally wanted. And his vision. I mean, it could never have happened without him. And we had our 30th anniversary and he came and spoke with the new principle of King. I hope they have recorded that. And we can send it to, practically everybody who was there was in tears because you know, they didn't know when he made that very radical decision to say I can do your own thing here. Whatever you wanted to do and I couldn't believe he was letting me, you know, use the garden as a classroom to teach their academic subjects. But it's really on the.. on my training in England, that changed my whole understanding about how we get information into our brains because she back in the 1880s, she wondered why children who were living in hunger and poverty could not live on, you know, but this but right now. You're having absolutely as sincerely deprived world and that is really the basic issue I want in the gardens of it. They want to smell, see beautiful trees and taste. It was The **** that I was trying to open up and you didn't know about that move, but it just really to believe because he had such a difficult group of kids that came from 22 different backgrounds, which really I don't know that that would be a huge benefit to us, but it was and it is. And so to hear those two principles, standing at your roots and telling all four fingers. This is what I did and this is the new Principal and he wants to do this. You know, if I was very moving. And I just know that when you're sensorily deprived, hasn't told or isn't that you're just not looking in the right places. You're jumping in your car instead of walking. You're not thinking about that. You're not thinking about the beauty. You could have your house on your plate. You're in the whole, you know, world and I think that's really we are all for her. You know what's happened in this country right now is because of sensory deprivation. It won't happen. You know, engaged with each other in that very important way, which is of course at the table. And we're not teaching our children really anything about it because we don't know, you know, it's incredibly so. That's why I'm so focused on the schools. There's no different that we can really communicate. 

00:25:55 Michelle

So to bring the school supported agriculture vision to life. It's like a menu of options and actions we could take.

00:26:05 Alice Waters

Well, I think you have to have, you know, the superintendents of schools to being enlightened about this and whether it comes from the Governor of States and making other Newsom and others have always been big supporters, their kids school and they have always talked about this, but I think it has.. there needs to be a lot more than talking. There needs to be a demonstration of this. I mean, and it can't come on video. It's got to come in person. There's gonna be a big slow food event in California and I hope we can do the students piece of that having that schoolyard for people to come in. But again, it's seeing is believing and I know that we have to do ... I've thought I always had to come from the government state. Or of course, I want great fantasies that it could come from the federal government. Truly, I really thought that Biden had a great opportunity. He didn't take advantage of that. But he was there with Kamala and I knew she knew all about it. She went to the Medical school board and she knows, and she shops at the farmers market every week. Also, we did a big event in DC at the Smithsonian, do you know about that?  But it was.. it happened in just… We called them climate food. I wanted to see the farmers and the teachers because who was sent the President during the Depression and he said they are our most valuable citizens. And so I wanted to do it on the wall and I wanted to have, you know, 500 teachers, 500 fighters, but, you know. Takes a year to get on the wall and I have about four months. But the Smithsonian said we could do this, and we could only have 100. But it was a really amazing thing. We had President Drake from the University of California and Michael Pallet and Eric Schlosser rush to tell all my heroes were there and plus the young girl who grew Oranges and wanted to be a farmer when she was so unhappy because she couldn't sell at the farmers market. And then she went over to the public school and the principal said these are the most delicious oranges. I'll buy it. Well, and so I just know that if that could happen, you know that's the ideal situation is we want to support the people who are taking care of the land and the right, and please come to us and we will pay this money. I think it's the word got out. Absolutely. And I've written that cookbook. It's called the School Lunch Revolution and was coming out in the Fall. OK, OK. And it's everything in it and fits into the USDA reimbursement. OK, so five rules that we can feed children, the first group of things that can be made all across the country. And the kids like, so my criteria was then liking it. It was diverse enough. It fit into the IT could be ground, it could be, you know, canned. It could be ultimately school lunch.

00:30:34 Michelle

Well, it's great. Thank you. That's been a really needed resource. That's been a big question. Can you can you eat locally on the USDA meal pattern?

00:30:41 Alice Waters

Well, I the important thing is of course are beans. Well, I know even though I didn't love beans..  During the course of doing this, but I'm feeling so they can be every color of the rainbow. You could have them every day and kids love these, especially when spices something so you can go Mexican. You can go Chinese, you can go, you know, it's just a very personal nutrition. Yes. A vegetable. And we have many like that, all the colors. Right. I mean, that's the biodiversity of this world. So when we run short of ideas, we can just get them from Japan and all kids love to go for their own sushi and it's really to see these kids. I have a couple of films. OK, I have an Institute for food education. And return to the like me and have been training people in school since Jennifer Sherman took a few videos and they're still trying to see the kids at the table. Old casting things, eating everything. It's like it's like the.. I don't know.  I was so surprised that I said nobody believes that children love to eat together, passing and Coffee together.

00:32:46 Michelle

Absolutely. We really appreciate all the time that you've spent with us. And is there, do you have any questions?

00:32:48 Alice Waters

Yes. I if you looked at any other questions that I might time is I feel unlimited for that's again a pledge to children and commerce. It's teach students about nourishment, stewardship, and community nature. Our network of 6500 plus edible school year programs that use kitchen and garden classrooms and support local regenerative farmers. So good, I heard you were doing this, I said absolutely. But I was in Oregon. I was with farmers and they're all coming down here this next week and we're going to have a meeting at the square coming to the restaurant, but I feel like what the spirit of what was happening in Oregon is definitely the current of the States in this country. I mean, yes, Maine and Vermont are doing a lot, but not with the same politics that that are in Oregon.

00:34:13 Michelle

Well, I don't think I've ever had a chance to tell you this, but a lot of that is related to my connection with you. When I if you recall and our listeners wouldn't know this, but when I was a doctoral student at Tufts University and the year 2000, no one, only two other people had done doctoral level research on school gardens. The term farm to school wasn't even around very much then, but one of the reasons was because there wasn't a framework there, you know, research we talked about, you know, how and why things happen. There was no hypothesis to test. It was like the research road map didn't exist. And so Alice, if you recall it, Zenobia Barlow, Janet Brown. Dan Desmond. Whole team. We met once a week for like, 6 weeks, and I spent five years and I mapped out. There was no googling up anything at that time, I went to the UC archives and looked through every journal, even related to food garden, agricultural based education and school nutrition, and every time someone said we did this, we put that in program activities and they said and this is what happened whether they hypothesized it or there was a quote and those were our outcomes. And we sifted and sorted and sifted and sorted and came up with a fancy term poly-theoretical model for food and garden based education. But essentially, it laid out the theoretical framework that we then tested with interviews at the Luther Burbank Middle School in San Francisco. We interviewed thousands of people, and the students and educators and all the specialists that we have brought together around the table. Which always makes the difference. That's our democracy in action. And then that was the framework, you know, came to Oregon with and then when we wrote the policy, we were able to be inclusive. Some states, even California, you know, they have procurement funds for their state grants at the moment, and they're trying to figure out, you know, because we were on the call, figure out how to get funding for school gardens now. They like, you know, we took them.

00:36:42 Alice Waters

But those two points right now, from my point to you, but it's, I mean, it's wonderful to have school gardens and all of them, but we need to change the procurement. We need to put the government money to the people who are taking care of the land and addressing climate and health and democracy, I dare say, but particularly climate. And I don't know whether you know that the Bank of America has funds for addressing climate before 2030, guess how much they have?

00:37:27 Michelle

How much?  3 billion.

00:37:34 Alice Waters

How out $1.6 trillion 1.6!

00:37:42 Michelle

Really. That's amazing. 

00:37:47 Alice Waters

I went and did a presentation during climate week with a guy from the state of California to talk to. They were very interested. I want the University of California to take it on, because if they did that they could make the map for the country for the world because every they've got all the campuses, they've got 364,000 acres of land. That's and I'm just trying to figure out how to you know, really have to understand it's they're going to. I mean, knowing what you are doing important in Oregon around the country would be extremely valuable to them as well. But they they're right, they're getting a new President of UC. But they just got a very enlightened Chancellor, Berkeley. And I'm. I'm just hoping he wants to take it on.

00:39:06 Michelle

Well, if you need partners in Oregon, we have our new Center for Resilient Agriculture and Food Systems at Oregon State University. And we're an intermix of across extension and university programs that work on, you know, really innovative transdisciplinary work that doesn't really fit,  you know everyone wants change, but the reality is institutions exist for a reason. Rights, democracy, moving slow, but it was hard to fit really innovative work into particular places, really for logistical things. People have position descriptions. They can't act outside of.

00:39:46 Alice Waters

Well, that's where we have to give some victory garden dispensations. You could put victory gardens anywhere to feed yourself. We need that kind of message from the powers that be the President. Do you want to grow food for the University of California? OK, you can do it if you do it organically. Regenerative. Please go ahead. Go it. Yeah, and that time there. It's, it's an emergency. You have time to think about it. And we. We've thought about it. Our kids are all sick because of it, and now we've lost our democracy. So we need to do something for a big demonstration, but I was in Berkeley in the 60s, which is probably why I'm right now, because that was so powerful. I've never felt that way. Ever. With a walk into the Plaza and there are thousands of people listening to Mario Sophia and not stopping the war for the speech and we were all together. And we're all helping you, children. And it was a moment in my life, and I can't let go of it, but we need to create, by the way, we're going to do with them. Let's come to we're going to do an event, teachers and farmers and advocates like yourself of their campus  of UC Berkeley, we did one for 30th birthday of Chez Panise there.. So I wanna do that in October, so stay tuned. 

00:41:51 Michelle

OK, that sounds fantastic. I do want to ask you one more question about policy you had mentioned. You know last week or the week before I was in in New York City for the Henry Ford conversation.  I know that you've been front and center in talking with that, that group of folks and one of the ideas that circled during that meeting was like, you know, 30 years ago when you were a Nutrition Service Director and you printed out the regulations, they were one inch big. But now they would fill at least four, 4-inch binders. There is no way anyone really knows or can decipher how all those regulations. So I'm wondering, from your perspective, like what would be the place to intervene in the policy sphere?

00:42:44 Alice Waters

To be quite frank, it's.. we need an enlightened dictator.  I mean really around doing this we need someone to see it that we're, you know, we really are poisoning our children and it's about the earth that this, I mean there's lots of movies that are out about this now and then you can watch them. But I that's the essence of the book that I'm coming up with.  It's that we can do this. And we must do it. And it's delicious and nutritious and it reaches.. it's getting mad for us indoctrination that we have, you know, more is better. Time is money. Everything should be fast, cheap and easy. And things that are wonderful take time. So true for you. You know, it's just that.

00:44:00 Rick

Well, thank you so much for being here today. It's been an honor talking to you.

00:44:06 Michelle

And thank you, Alice. Thank you for your extraordinary long term passion, your vision and you. I know you work hard.

00:44:14 Alice Waters

But I don't need to be thanked because I love what I do. It's not. It's not hard to do this. It's I one thing that I think is so wrong is that most people have meaning this work in this country. They drove a couple hours to a factory for their work day. You have a vending machine 2 hours back home. I mean, I couldn't do that. If I would pay a fortune, I wouldn't do it. And I love what I do and I know the farmers that I love, love what they do and when they're connected to a school, it's like they are giving a gift every day of their food to those children. So it's something that has that built into it, that it's meaningful in ways that we can't even imagine. It's being able to take care of her sick child. It's so gratifying.  I won't feel so good. I love to talk to you guys and come down and see you. Please.

00:45:34 Michelle

Alright. Yeah, we'll see you soon.

00:45:37 Rick

Thank you so much.

00:45:39 Alice Waters

Thank you. Bye bye.

00:45:44 Rick

We'd like to thank you so much for tuning in and listening today and special thanks to Alice Waters for being our guest from the school is written, directed and produced by Rick Sherman and Michelle Markesteyn with production support from LeAnn Locher of Oregon State University. This podcast was made possible by a grant by the United States Department of Agriculture. The content and ideas for farm to school podcast does not necessarily reflect the opinions of Oregon State University, Oregon Department of Education in the United States Department of Agriculture, the USDA, Oregon Department of Education and Oregon State University are equal opportunity providers and employers. Do you want to learn more about farm to school, check out other episodes, show notes, contact information and much more by just searching farm to school podcast, OSU. And we would love to hear from you. So stop by that website that I just mentioned to say hello and give us an idea for a future podcast. Thank you, everybody. And we'll see you next time.