Farm to School at Any Scale, From Policy to Plate – with Andrea Alma

Farm to School isn’t just about local apples—it’s about rethinking the entire food system. In this episode, Andrea Alma shares how a public health problem-solver fell in love with school lunch—and went on to help reshape it from policy to plate. From early wins in D.C. to building one of the most innovative large-scale programs in Minneapolis, Andrea unpacks what it really takes to move from small efforts to system-wide change. We dive into root causes, school gardens, farmer partnerships, and the unsung heroes behind the scenes—while exploring why creating lasting impact means thinking far beyond what’s on the tray. It’s a story of passion, persistence, and planting the seeds for a better food future in schools.

Make sure to check out Andrea at https://sites.google.com/view/rootstockconsulting 

Transcript

Farm to School at Any Scale, From Policy to Plate – with Andrea Alma

Farm to School isn’t just about local apples—it’s about rethinking the entire food system. In this episode, Andrea Alma shares how a public health problem-solver fell in love with school lunch—and went on to help reshape it from policy to plate. From early wins in D.C. to building one of the most innovative large-scale programs in Minneapolis, Andrea unpacks what it really takes to move from small efforts to system-wide change. We dive into root causes, school gardens, farmer partnerships, and the unsung heroes behind the scenes—while exploring why creating lasting impact means thinking far beyond what’s on the tray. It’s a story of passion, persistence, and planting the seeds for a better food future in schools.

Transcript

00:00:03 Michelle

Welcome to the Farm to School Podcast, where you'll hear stories of how you thrive and farmers prosper when we learn how to grow, cook, and eat delicious, nutritious local foods in schools across the country.

00:00:14 Rick

And the world. Hi, everybody. We're your hosts. I'm Rick.

00:00:17 Michelle

And I'm Michelle. And we're talking about a very special place in the world today in one of our favorite places, which is Minneapolis with Andrea. Hi, Andrea.

00:00:26 Andrea Alma

Hi, it's great to be here. Hello.

00:00:29 Rick

And yeah, I had the privilege once, for whatever reason, they thought I was a big enough deal to speak at their farm to school conference back in the day when I think they were just kind of getting started up as a network and stuff. And it was 2016.

00:00:46 Michelle

You mean Minneapolis?

00:00:48 Rick

Yeah, did I, what did I say?

00:00:49 Rick

I wasn't sure who they were. But it was, I went there and it was in the winter and I was, so jazzed. I wanted to see the ponds frozen over for people skating, skating and stuff. And I went there and it was almost 70 degrees and all the things were blooming and the birds were out and people were losing their minds because it was so unseasonably warm in the winter. It was so weird. So that was the only time I've ever been there in Minnesota. But yeah, wonderful place.

00:01:25 Andrea Alma

Yes, indeed. I'm not from here, but moved here and it totally just won over my heart.

00:01:33 Rick

You're not from there. Where are you from originally, Andrea?

00:01:36 Andrea Alma

I'm originally from the East Coast, grew up in the Northeast, in Rhode Island and Connecticut, and made my way to Minneapolis via Boston and DC.

00:01:52 Rick

So gosh, why Minneapolis?

00:01:55 Andrea Alma

Yeah, well, I went to school in Boston and I studied environmental engineering and public health. And once I graduated, I actually spent some time in France working at a conference center and got to experience how a completely different culture views food and connects with people over food and cares deeply about how it's grown and where it comes from. And that kind of merging with my young public health and problem solving brain came across this concept of farm to school. And I was like, my gosh, this is it. This is the topic I want to focus on for the rest of my life. And that was probably in 2008. And I actually came back to the States and didn't want to be in the Northeast. So I stayed with some relatives in the D.C. area and just started learning more about this idea from folks like Michelle, who at the time was, you know, getting started as a leader in this movement as well. And started talking to different organizations about farm to school, and wouldn't this be so great if we got this going? And at that time, Michelle Obama was just coming in to blow all of our minds about how important food, nutrition, and exercise all are. And I kept hearing from folks who I was talking to, yeah, that sounds so great. Like we're not doing that. But if someone were to do that, we'd be so on board. And so I did end up starting the DC Farm to School Network in 2008. Shortly thereafter, I came out to Oregon for the Farm to Cafeteria Conference in Portland, which was just a supremely formative experience for me. Again, got to rub elbows with Michelle and these other early leaders of the movement. And it only solidified that I was in the right field and in especially an exciting time. And so I'm giving you the very roundabout way of how I made it to Minneapolis. But in D.C., we had a blast. I was in a position to really listen to all of the different players who were interested and wanted to do farm to school. And I have this brain where I just love to go on tours of kitchens and love to just go to where people are doing what they love and know, and then connect the dots with what are those needs that we're seeing across the board? And what are some of those systems level changes that would make this easier for everyone? And so we ended up passing a law there. The D.C. Healthy Schools Act in 2010, which was one of the first quote unquote state, I'll say state level policies because D.C. is not quite a state, but the first really big localized policy that provides an extra financial incentive for schools to buy local and created a position in the D.C. Department of Education there, which kind of parallels some of what happened there in Oregon. But it was a really unique place to be doing farm to school because you're not, it's not for the agriculture side of things is not necessarily benefiting the District of Columbia. It's his partnership with farms in the surrounding area, you know, the Delmarva, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, even like that whole Mid-Atlantic region. There was the impact was there. And so there was a lot of partnership with the surrounding states, especially on the agriculture side, which was really, really fun.

00:06:12 Michelle

So Andrea, that's really interesting, because when we talk about all the policy, and I remember when you were doing all that, and we were watching with, holding our breath, like, what are they going to be able to do? And you did so much in a short period of time. I'm wondering what messages resonated with decision makers?

00:06:36 Andrea Alma

Yeah, that's a great question. I think at the time, then council member Mary Che, who was leading the Healthy Schools Act charge, wanted to see a very comprehensive piece of legislation that would transform a child's school experience to be healthier. And so she took a really holistic view and focused on physical activity and nutrition. And I would say she had a really incredible staffer who she sort of set on this task of compiling different elements of this Healthy Schools Act. And we showed him a good time. We took him out to farms. We took him out to school gardens. We took him to different school kitchens and different aggregation and distribution facilities. And by doing that, I wouldn't say we necessarily focused on a particular message, but kind of told the story of how, hey, this farm to school thing is exactly what Council Member Che wants. This is exactly what the city of DC wants to see. And here are the barriers in the way, with the financial piece being one of the biggest barriers. And so I'm not sure I quite answered your question there, but I think we took a really holistic approach of letting Farm to School tell its own story, because I think that's one of the greatest things about it is different elements of it resonate to different people for different reasons. And for her, for the council member, it was the health. But I think for Drew Newman, this staff person of hers, he actually was really interested in more of the agriculture and culinary side of it. So, yeah.

00:08:33 Michelle

I just wanted to ask because in that time period, 2007, 2008, several things were happening. And one was, you know, for the first time, childhood obesity reached like #1 health issue for children. And so there was a ton of attention. And so that's why I was curious. There was a ton of attention. But then we had like economic, I forget what they call it, like a mini recession. Do you recall that in 2008?

00:08:59 Andrea Alma

Oh yes.

00:09:00 Michelle

So like here in Oregon, what happened was we had all the initial pilot studies that were half funded by the Oregon State Legislature and half funded by the Kaiser Permanente Fund at the Northwest Health Foundation. It's A mouthful, but we were doing those first initial pilots that led to the seven cents study that we did on the economic, we did on the economic impact because the legislature said, don't bring anything in front of us that doesn't have an economic benefit. And so the movement very quickly shifted. I was the principal investigator on that research. So that's why I was like, how did you guys do it? We shifted from childhood obesity lens very quickly into, and the funders supported this. What was the economic impact? And that's why we did that report.

00:09:50 Andrea Alma

Yeah. Well, and I would say, Michelle, we took that research you did and certainly brought that to the council member as well. Because like I said, it's a little unique because the economic benefit isn't coming right back to the District of Columbia. So I would say the, yeah, I would say that was still compelling, but I would have to say on balance that the health, the health element of it was and the fresh food and the access to, high quality fresh food was her primary goal. But then I was like, it was not really an option for me to work in the DC public schools. I loved this local procurement side of farm to school, but DC public schools had a food service management company at the time, and I didn't have the large scale food service experience to really be confident moving into that space that I wanted to work for a school district. I wanted to buy the food and just get my hands dirty, so to speak. And so I was talking with St. Paul Public Schools, and then Gene Ronnie, who was out there at the time, was like, Oh, you should talk to this new person, Bertrand Weber, who just took over as the food service director for Minneapolis schools super aligned with your experience and you should talk. And so I had one conversation with Bertrand and he said, I will hire you, move out to Minneapolis and come be our farm to school coordinator. And I said, wow, okay, I've never been to Minneapolis, but I am in. And so I moved to Minneapolis and I immediately fell in love with it. And I'm happy to have this argument with anyone, but I think it's the best city in the country, at least from my perspective. And I had a blast, working with Bertrand and his incredible team to really envision what a large scale farm to school centric school nutrition program could look like. And for those of you who don't know Bertrand, he's a visionary and really has an incredible way of approaching school meals as basically like gourmet food service for kids. And that stems from his background in gourmet food service. So he basically didn't miss a beat and set the bar real high. And it was a lot of just trying to keep up with his expectations for how deeply our program would be committed to working with small and mid-scale, diverse, underserved farmers to supply the district.

00:13:03 Rick

Well, if there's one guy that like you would want to mentor under and learn from in the farm to school process, and you were in on the ground floor. You said he was just starting out, but Bertram is, he's the guy. He's the man for like the gold standard for, especially for getting farm to school in a big school district, you know, to show how it can be done. And I think we, are, we interviewed him on the show before and his episode is called, you know, he was adamant about it. It's not school lunch, it's lunch at school. And that's, that has been, in our most popular episode that has been listened to so far. So I'll link to that in the show notes too for you guys to do it. But we got him like at the very end, like he's just now, I think, fully retired. And so, but I'm sure we'll see him in the farm to school world, you know, at all of our conferences and things like that, right?

00:14:06 Andrea Alma

Yeah, he and I just co-presented at the Florida Farm to School Conference and we're just keeping up some things together using our shared expertise that we've both, you know, evolved over time. And so it's been such a joy to reconnect with him and yeah, continue to innovate and collaborate with him. So yeah, I'm a big fan.

00:14:31 Michelle

Yeah, so you… We are, and we're a big fan of you, Andrea, and so grateful for how much you worked within that space and where you are now and the things you've done. I'm just wondering what were some key takeaways from your time at Minneapolis, like your aha moments.

00:14:51 Andrea Alma

Yeah. I think one of the things that I really valued about Minneapolis was that we were able to start fairly small. And we came, we started this in 2012 when there were quite a few large scale growers who were very established in the local food marketplace here, but there were also quite a few very small, largely immigrant farmers and aggregations of farmers just getting their feet under them. And so we were, it was this perfect match of working with them to help them grow, to meet our needs and vice versa. So we would meet with farmers, even in the late fall and over the winter, we would do food safety trainings with them. We would get out to their farm. We'd review their food safety protocols and sort of visit with them about exactly how we could make this work together. And let's say we would start on the small side with like one product, you know, partner on one product. And then maybe the next year, we moved on to maybe three products and three times the volume because we could handle that scale. And then they were ready to handle that scale. And then because we were also partnering with a processing and distribution company to sort of make this connection, these farmers were then at a scale and wholesale readiness level that this produce company started buying from them for their other customers, right? So by us kind of investing in them and helping them grow to this scale, then they had access to new and better markets. And I think that's one of my key takeaways from Minneapolis is that school districts can and should be the drivers of the type of food systems change we want to see. And that was so evident with Minneapolis. And it took the investment of a school district of our size and scale to kind of catalyze some of that growth in a number of school districts, to the point where we were buying hundreds of thousands of dollars of product and actually, making a difference in the economic bottom line of these producers.

00:17:46 Michelle

Okay, I'm gonna linger there. That's profound. That's a shift in, congratulations. And I know everyone who's listening is gonna be like, well, how did you do that? How did you, yeah, how did you, how did the district make that investment? I mean, it's the mantra, right? Schools have no money, schools have no time, school hasn't, so like, what was the investment? in those words with human capital. Yeah. And how did you do that?

00:18:23 Andrea Alma

Yeah, I think there was a confluence of factors that made it possible in Minneapolis. And these factors are not possible everywhere. And so I do want to acknowledge that. But Bertrand's leadership and Bertrand took it upon himself to convince everyone this is what had to be done. And he's a convincing guy. And

00:18:45 Andrea Alma

He made allies with, the school board and Minneapolis Public Schools leadership, but also parent groups and advocacy groups and he did the circuit to, the mayor was on his side. Things like that where he got this like very broad buy-in to what he wanted to accomplish. And that did result in additional investment from the city and the school district. You know, I think the other thing is that we had some really key partnerships. So University of Minnesota had a fantastic on-farm food safety program still does. And their team just dove in headfirst with us such that every summer I was going out to every farm with the University of Minnesota Good Agricultural Practices team and our produce company. So they would come out and do a visit too, and we'd walk through and see if there were any issues that needed to be corrected and honestly provide some really high quality technical assistance to these producers kind of on the spot. They also participated in a bunch of trainings with us for producers. So these really strategic and really these partnerships really filled a niche that we needed to fill in order to take the program to the next level. And then I think honestly, I'm a fairly, I'm a fairly, let's see, what's a good word for it? I don't take challenges lightly and I'm pretty crazy about like achieving a goal that we have. And so I think I'm just really persistent and also have this brain that loves big complex problems like these. And so I was able to kind of stick with it, but also bring along the key partners and the allies to get there. So by the end of my time out there, the school nutrition professionals in our school kitchens could tell you which products were local and who our producers were and why it was important to them and did not scoff at that extra work that it took to make it happen because there was that buy-in. So whereas at the beginning, maybe it was just, oh, this is Andrea's thing that she's doing. We really worked hard on ensuring that buy-in and partnership was there at all levels of the school district.

00:21:36 Rick

Well, you guys were such a good team. I mean, it was Bertram and Andrea, Andrea and Bertram for so many years at conferences and things like that.  I remember, and when I did go up there to Minnesota, I met with you too, and I had a school lunch on a random day that it wasn't like this special farm to school lunch event. It was just like, it was just like normal lunch every day. I believe it was local fried chicken and the veggies and stuff. I was just, I was really blown away by the scale and scope to be able to do that on a big scale. But so anyway, wonderful, wonderful. And you were there. And I see a lot of similarities between you and my co-host, Michelle, here, and that Michelle has done every single job known in the world. She's been in the private sector. She's been with Department of Ag. She's been with Department of Ed. She's been with...

00:22:31 Michelle

Not behind the line, like Andrea.

00:22:34 Rick

But yeah, but I've kind of seen you too. Yeah, that's the one thing we need to get her in school food service. I think Michelle.

00:22:41 Michelle

I'm marrying into it.

00:22:42 Rick

Yeah, that's right.

00:22:43 Michelle

I'm marrying one. I don't need to do it.

00:22:45 Rick

Yeah, but like after you were able to, you had that job for quite a long time and then you transitioned out of it to the USDA, right?

00:22:58 Andrea Alma

That's right, yes. And so what did you do there?

00:23:05 Michelle

He's being nice to me because we're recording this on my birthday.

00:23:07 Rick

Oh, yeah.

00:23:08 Andrea

Happy birthday.

00:23:09 Michelle

So sorry, listeners. This isn't about me.

00:23:12 Rick

She's 29.

00:23:13 Andrea Alma

Everyone should listen to the Michelle episode too. It's lovely. And I would say yes. In 2016, I got the call from Deborah Kane at the US Department of Agriculture saying, hey, we have an opening for one of our USDA Farm to School regional leads. in Denver, Colorado, would you consider it? And at the time, my parents lived in Colorado, and I was certainly not looking to leave Minneapolis, but that was pretty much the only position that would convince me to leave Minneapolis just for the opportunity to share what we learned over those years, getting the program up and running, and just be exposed to all sorts of different scales and types of farm to school programs. So that the region that I then moved into covering and supporting at USDA was an eight state region that ranged from Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, over to the Dakotas, Missouri, Nebraska and Kansas. And so, and I immediately fell in love with it, with the role there, and found that I enjoyed being this support person to the state agencies and the state level players making farm to school happen, facilitating farm to school in their states. And so I did that for 10 years.

00:24:50 Rick

And so could you tell our listeners, like those of you who don't know, like, yeah, we have these regional USDA coordinators, like you said, you were in the Mountain West region. We have a West, like the West Coast person, one in the Northeast, one in the Southwest, one in, so these different regional people. What are some of the things that you all did in your day-to-day activities?

00:25:16 Andrea Alma

Yeah, I'm happy to share kind of what we did for nine of those 10 years and things really changed as of very recently. But one of the main things that we did was oversee the Farm to School grant program. So if you were in my region and you received a Farm to School grant, I was your person to help you navigate all the administrative parts of it, but also really help you be sure that you're accomplishing your goals, you know, connecting you to the right resources or clarifying things, reviewing drafts of things, even coming out and helping you out with the training or what have you. And then the other main thing we did was supporting state agencies. And I think with my experience, we had a lot of really fantastic folks at USDA Farm to School on the Farm to School team. And it was really incredible because everyone brought their own layers of expertise and perspective to the mix. And I really loved trying to crack this nut of how can state agencies collaborate with each other, with other players at the state level, and with the producers and schools and food systems players at the state to kind of like take farm to school to the next level and think less about, okay, how can I be positioned myself to help this one tiny school connect with this one tiny farm, but rather to see the whole ecosystem of the state and what are the most strategic things that you can be doing at that state level to achieve scale. And I think that was one of my biggest takeaways from being at USDA was A lot of government workers, sometimes myself included, you sometimes really hone in on, okay, well, I need to help this individual in front of me, or I need to answer this technical question I received via e-mail. But actually having those folks take a step back and actually think of themselves as systems level experts, as leaders, you know, conceptualizing how what the farm to school dream world is they want to see for their state in 10 years. And then thinking about those really deep underlying or root causes that aren't always showing up in the emails that maybe give you an excuse for why they didn't do this or that.I don't mean to say excuse in a negative way, but like as opposed to some of those more surface level challenges that we can't always dig under.

00:28:08 Michelle

Well, that sounds like hard won, hard learned gold nugget right there. And I'm wondering if you could give a specific example to bring it to life.

00:28:17 Andrea Alma

Yeah, well, I think one of the ways that presented itself or an example might be, we did a number of what we call root cause analyses in the various states where I worked, where we would go out and hit the road and go out into communities and ask people, around the table, producers and schools and everyone in between, like, okay, why isn't farm to school in every school here in Nebraska? Why isn't local food prolific on every tray? Why isn't there a garden at every school? And someone would raise their hand and say something. And then we would immediately ask, well, why is that the case? Okay, why is that the case? Why is that the case? And use kind of a public health inquiry approach to help people, like, uncover some of the root causes and underlying reasons why we're not at our farm to school dream world yet, but also bring people along on a journey to see how important it is to be asking those underlying questions, right?  Not just stopping when someone says, well, I don't know where the farmers are. I just need a directory of farmers. Everyone will tell you that, but that's not the reason. You'll give them the directory of farmers and they still won't make the call because it's deeper. The issues are deeper. We got to issues like, well, I'm not going to do farm to school because as the school nutrition director, I'm not valued for my contributions to the academic success of the children in my school. I'm not a part of the all school meetings. The principal doesn't say hello to me. I am not valued. So why would I not part of the education process when I'm not right? Or even in Wyoming, we heard these issues like, well, Our state is so tied to the oil and gas industry that when oil and gas is booming, every single truck driver in the state is driving for oil and gas, and we cannot find a consistent workforce to actually meet the distribution needs of our state. So those really unique, deeper issues where you can make all the farmer directories you want, but if you're not addressing those other issues, you're going to hit only the overachievers doing farm to school. You know, the folks who can navigate the current broken system and who care to invest the immense time and resources it takes to make farm to school happen in a world where it is not the norm. And you're never going to deliver farm to school for those folks who care about it, but just don't have the resources to do all it takes to make it happen.

00:31:26 Rick

That was really insightful. I mean, I see myself in a lot of your conversations as a state agency person, me asking some of the same questions and getting a variety of different responses. And quite often, I think we get people to think, oh, it's because of this, and there's your answer. And it's like, no, it's not. I always come back to, farm to school isn't successful unless the nutrition service director wants it. If they want to make it happen, they'll make it happen. It's just trying to get them to want to make it happen, too.

00:31:59 Andrea Alma

So I think we're hearing more than that. Yeah, and even if they want to make it happen, they are it's going to require that they invest all sorts of time and resources because our food system is broken and our education system is broken and they are navigating within these broken systems to create an alternate system or try and squeeze it into the existing system if they can kind of maintain the values they want to maintain and do that. And so this is probably, I would say, where I hope that my Having recently left USDA, my new consulting role can be is helping out with these projects that help to create the alternate system or find extremely strategic, larger scale solutions within the current system that don't compromise our values to actually like deliver farm to school to the school nutrition directors who don't want it, right? How can we have it, local food show up on our commodity trucks? How can we have local food be a part of cooperative solicitations that school districts are already participating in? How can we have school districts like Minneapolis that are making it happen? How can they carry some of the smaller surrounding districts around them who don't have their resources. How can school districts like Boulder Valley, who I'm working with in Colorado, who have an incredible central kitchen, they're looking to process local food for other districts. How can we use some of these public assets and innovation and creativity to benefit the districts that don't have access to that? And so that's where it's kind of like a yes, and to your point there, Rick, of like, you need that food service director to be involved, but as a movement, we spent too much time trying to convince food service directors that this needs to happen. Like, I think there also needs to be a concurrent track where we're actually looking strategically at the system and how do we make it show up on the doors of those who aren't necessarily bought in.

00:34:25 Rick

I'll agree with you. I think both things can be true. But I've just like in Bertram's case, and your case in Minneapolis, I can see somebody saying, you know, we're too far north, we don't have a growing season, we're just, it's not going to, there's, it's just not going to happen. And they, it was such an important part of your goals to make it happen. You found a way. And maybe the distribution network wasn't there yet, but it's like, okay, this door's closed. I'm gonna keep trying to find another. That's like I'm saying, we need, and you're right, we do spend so much time just trying to bring Farm to School and let people know what it is, because some nutrition services director, I mean, I was one. And it was like, there's so many regulations. There's so much to do. And it's like, honestly, if my people aren't, if my school board isn't asking for it, and it's not a big deal to me, I can see where it might not be as important. They're trying to get lunch out on the table. In my case, it was our parents demanded it. And it was just, it was a big deal to me. And I liked it so much. I mean, I did this full time.I left my job and to do it as a state agency person.

00:35:45 Michelle

I hear that. And let's go back to the root cause analysis. And yes, you're, is that where you got the rootstock for rootstock consulting?

00:35:56 Andrea Alma

Well, you know, it's funny. My husband was like, They're like, what should we, what should I call my LLC? And he's like, well, you should call it Root Cause Consulting because you're all into that. And I was like, oh, that's a good idea. Well, those are all taken pretty much. And I was like, well, what other words have to do with root? So in a sense, Michelle, yes, it does have an element of that, of kind of getting to the root of maybe why firms, we're not, we've been at this as a movement for 20 plus years and we still haven't reached the promised land.

00:36:34 Michelle

I'm right there with you. When we did our 10-year strategic plan in Oregon after two years, right, it took us forever. Because it was very thoughtful and rigorous process. And then at the end of it, I said to everyone, okay, that miracle question, right? You had a magic wand and could change one thing, what would it be? And it was interesting. As far as I got was like, we are And you're one of the few people I hear say this, but we're tinkering with, I don't say broken system, but I understand that's the context. We're tinkering with a system that actually functions and works great for how it was designed. And people don't love hearing that because they want it to do something different. So we tinker with a system and have gone so far, and what we've seen, like let's assume, a normal bell-shaped curve of, innovation, adoption. Right. That right, you have your folks who are innovators and will figure it out no matter what. You, Bertrand, a lot of people we end up interviewing. And then we're going to just have some that just for any reason can't, you know, that 6%. But then we think like, okay, how do we engage the early adopters, which I'd argue they already are. I mean, when you look at the USDA Farm to School Census data, 89% of K-12 schools are doing this at some level. That doesn't mean it's up to the level maybe we would love to see, which in Oregon, we have a statewide goal of 33% of all foods purchased come from Oregon. And, you know, and that all schools participate at some level. So I guess I'm kind of like, what in your experience, I know you think deeply about this, like what are those root causes? Are they different in different places?

00:38:41 Andrea Alma

Sorry to jump in because yes, this is what I think about all the time. I'll answer that question this way. I think one of the issues there is, yes, while the vast majority of schools are perhaps dabbling in Farm to School, they understand the value, they're happy to participate in Farm to School Month and buy some local apples or what have you, but the inertia of the conventional food system is too much for them to really move on from there. And when schools buy that way, when they buy off an availability list, let's say, or they take a look at a food hub's offerings and they maybe buy those apples once or even three times, they're essentially acting like a restaurant, right? They're being a reactive buy, like they're seeing the price list, the available list, they're reacting and making a sporadic purchase. And there are so many elements of that type of purchasing that mean that the seller needs to charge a higher price, right? They need to carry that inventory. They have not planned for that. They don't know if you're going to buy again and spread that risk or the benefit of that purchase beyond that one time. And so to me, that is at the root of a lot of this is schools acting like restaurants and then getting restaurant pricing and thinking, wow, farm to school is too expensive. I think schools need to think of themselves as a different type of buyer. And we don't really have this ethos of what it means to be an excellent school buyer. But what I would argue is that it's a buyer that connects with those producers or that food hub over the winter and is mapping out its commitments for the following school year and is working with these different supply chain, these suppliers to give them that assurance that they will be a good buyer and buy regularly and buy in volume, because that's one of the only tools we have to combat the pricing of the conventional food system. And so is essentially scale. And so with scale, with advanced planning, and with commitment, we can at least try and quote, unquote, compete with the conventional food system. But there's no way we can do that if we act as restaurants. And farmers know this. A lot of farmers, you all know this. If you talk to them, they'll say, wait, well, I have this very finicky school buyer, and then they fell off the face of the earth, and I don't deal with schools anymore. And so personally, I think we have a lot of work to do on that school buyer side to really see themselves as partners in developing the relationship-based food system that needs to be developed in order for them to have a steady and functional supply of local food. And this is just so different from how schools are used to thinking that it's, it'll take a while for us to get there.

00:42:09 Rick

About the school buyers and having not being able to be in the school market because of the market is different. Like it's only this many months out of the year and it's not full time or whatever. Like what do I do in the summer? And it's funny, we've seen some vendors locally that they can get more money selling their food overseas, like to China or wherever, but they are, once they figure out about, hey, my food is going to the Oregon school kids in our case, they're like, it's a shift in thinking and they're like, it's the right thing to do. And they might not even, in some cases, like it could be more profitable for them to do other things, but it's a commitment on their part and they really feel good about it. They've gotten some awards for doing it or whatever. And we've opened up new markets There's our very first, one of our very first episodes we did, Ricky Lynn and Umatilla, we interviewed her. And if you know where Umatilla, Oregon is, it's out in the middle of nowhere in Eastern Oregon, all by themselves, you know, not really on a distribution network. And like she literally old school, went through the phone book and went out to, there's some big farms. Some of the biggest farms in our area are out there, but they don't sell retail, they sell to overseas. And she went out there with her pickup truck and they're like, well, we don't sell to, but hey, this sounds like fun. And now they're some of our bigger sellers and they sell to all the schools. And just she started like going with her pickup truck, picking up strawberries or potatoes, red potatoes or whatever. She just has one of these attitudes of can do, you know, attitudes. And she kind of figured it out on her own. But anyway, in answer to your question, though, that's a real thing with vendors. And it's like, we have vendors that are like, that's just not our market. And then until they realize how cool it is, let's see, oh man, all the Oregon school children in our area are eating my product and they get a lot of Instagram and Facebook posts and it's just a really wonderful thing. So it can happen.

00:44:26 Andrea Alma

Yeah, and I think that's, to me, that's also kind of a collateral benefit to just building a good market that works for both sides together by thinking differently about, again, scale and commitment and advanced planning, such that, quite frankly, it's acting a little bit more like those international markets, because you sure as heck better bet that they have those international markets lined up before they put a seed in the ground, is my guess. I don't know much about that marketplace, honestly. And then How can schools act a little bit more like that to produce some of the risks on the producer side and actually create, again, a marketplace that works for both sides and has the warm, fuzzy feelings? Because that's not quite enough in my book.

00:45:19 Michelle

So what would that look like if we all went to sleep tonight, and we're all dreaming, beautiful farm to school dreams, and a miracle happens for us, right, and all the root causes? been working on are resolved, and we all show up to work tomorrow morning, what would be those first signs, small or large, that would tell us the system's functioning in the way that we value? That's a question.

00:45:45 Andrea Alma

Well, I think you're seeing farm to school you're seeing local products really embedded in many different levels of a school's like procurement experience, right? So maybe there are local products. Coming in off their broadline distributor truck.

a certain type of scale of local products, like the Troy Brothers hummus or what have you. And you're also seeing maybe a separate produce contract that school district has. Maybe they've separated out produce and they're specifying local and getting some local, maybe from some larger local scale growers through They're a produce company, let's say. And again, this is probably skewing towards a larger district because that's just where my head is at right now. And maybe they have some more direct relationships with a handful of growers in ways that work with, again, for both sides. But with all of this, the school district is taking stock of what all is happening in their school meal program in October, November, and mapping out the products that they hope to serve the next school year and designing this multi-layered system to incorporate local, again, way in advance. And then, of course, the superintendent loves it, the school board loves it, the parents are demanding it, all of those other things. I think one of the things that I've seen in Minneapolis is we used to do a whole bunch of taste tests and a little bit more education with students, and that sort of fell off during the COVID times. And I can really tell, when we were back when we were doing quarterly taste tests with every K-8 student. So we're doing like 18,000 taste tests, 18,000 samples. And then you develop this culture of tasting. And then when that item shows up on the salad bar, there's a different response. And that's not happening right now for various reasons. And so it just kind of gets me thinking of like, yeah, you just, you can't focus all on local procurement, even though that's my jam, you need the school gardens, you need the taste test, you need the hands-on food, nutrition, agriculture experiences to reinforce the system.

00:48:31 Rick

Kind of wish you were on our ground floor when we were doing all of our strategic planning and stuff, because it's brought out so many questions. I know, it's like, I was like, we need to do it again. I know, it's like, Andrea would be perfect for this. Now you can hire me.

00:48:44 Rick

Yeah, there you go.

00:48:46 Andrea Alma

Now you can hire me.

00:48:47 Rick

Andrea's link in the bio.

00:48:48 Andrea Alma

I got you.

00:48:49 Rick

Well, for other states, for sure. I mean, other states, if you're going through that process, that would be a really good one that has a grasp on all that. I mean, you've been there from the start. So it's been really good.

00:49:00 Michelle

Thank you for helping us think deeper. Really appreciate you, Andrea.

00:49:05 Andrea Alma

Thank you. have both been my early inspirations. Appreciate this. Thank you.

00:49:09 Rick

Oh, thanks.

00:49:10 Michelle

And thanks everyone for listening today. Farm to School was written, directed, and produced by Rick Sherman and Michelle Markesteyn with production support from Leanne Locker. Thanks, Leanne. And Lauren Tobey of Oregon State University. The podcast was made possible in part by a grant from the United States Department of Agriculture.

00:49:27 Rick

The content and ideas on the Farm to School Podcast does not necessarily reflect the opinions of Oregon State University or the United States Department of Agriculture. The USDA and Oregon State University are equal opportunity providers and employers.

00:49:42 Michelle

And do you want to learn more about Farm to School and root cause analysis?

00:49:45 Rick

Andrea, do you?

00:49:46 Michelle

Yes, who doesn't? Check out our other episodes. Show notes, contact information, just Google up Farm to School Podcast. You'll find us.

00:49:57 Rick

Thanks for stopping by, everybody, and we'll see you next time. Thanks, Andrea.

00:50:02 Michelle

Thank you so much, Andrea.

00:50:05 Andrea Alma

Thank you.