Talk with James Geering of Behind the Shield Podcast

James Geering

Host and CEO at Behind the Shield Podcast

Paramedic, Firefighter, Advocate

Listen in for a great conversation with some amazing insights/resources with James!

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Strategic Training Concepts

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Okay. Hi, Jeff here from Overwatch 529. We have with us today a special guest, James. James is going to explain his podcast, what he does, and some of the um things that he has that is of very interesting to our audience. Uh you'll be very interested in hearing uh what he has to say. So uh James, thank you for coming today to join us. Really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for having me. Yes, so um I always oh almost forgot. I always offer um for those that can't see it, uh, my uh t-shirt of the day is our Marine Corps one through the Officer Kennedy program. So that's what this one is. And um now I'll turn it back to uh to James and say thank you for coming. And uh please go ahead and let our audience know uh a little bit about yourself, what you do, your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me again, like I said. Um, yeah, James Gearing, as you can probably tell from the accent, not from around these parts, originally from England. Um, I ironically wanted to be a firefighter when I was a little boy in the UK, did the annual medical at my school, was told I was colorblind, and was told you can never be a pilot, you can never be a firefighter, you can never be all the cool things that most kids want to be. So really wandered around aimlessly for quite a while. Found myself working in um the stunt world for a while as a stunt man, um, and that took me to moving to the US, and right before I did, kind of had an epiphany that we're talking like mid-20s now, so it took me a long time to figure this out, but I can see colours. So, what are they talking about? Well, ended up coming to a fire academy here in Orlando, challenging the test, you know, and then then basically the little book, I think it's got a Japanese name, Fujimoto or something like that, um, and saying, Look, I'm I can't see some of those numbers, but point to anything around this this room and I'll tell you what color it is. And they were like, All right, done. And that was it. So that's all that stood between me and my my lifelong um dream career. So yeah, ended up entering the fire service back in 04, had a a very gypsy career, went just because of following family. Started in the East Coast, went to the West Coast for a few years, back to the East Coast, then got divorced, and then I'm a single dad, then moved departments again because um, for anyone listening who's still in, the mandatory overtime as a single parent is those two don't go together. Um, and then sadly, about 10 years into my career, I started just burying my friends. I mean, you know, funeral after funeral, and so having a background as a coach, as an athlete, as an ex-fiz major, I didn't have all the answers. I wasn't the expert, but I knew the kind of conversations we should be having in our profession. And so, you know, like yourself, I started a podcast at about 10 years ago now just to bring the real SMEs from around the world or the real, you know, powerful lived experiences to everyone else so that we could start solving some of these problems. Because the answers are out there. I mean, they really are to so many of our problems. Um about two years after that, I was in uh a very toxic culture in the last place I worked, spent five years trying to you know make actionable differences, definitely you know, made a difference, but not anywhere near where it needed to go. So I ended up transitioning out so I could speak freely for the rest of the fire service and beyond. So that's uh that's pretty much it from the podcast side of view, kind of where I am now, is doing this for the last almost eight years solely and then writing books.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Oh, yeah. So we'll get to the books in a minute. I have three myself coming up on the fourth, even though I swore them off. But yeah, we'll we'll be doing one more coming up. Excellent. But but yeah, we we're in the exact same space where the idea is officer or first responder wellness, uh veteran wellness, um making sure that uh especially if we're transitioning transitioning over. Um I'm gonna have to edit this because I don't know if you can hear them, but I'm gonna have to close the door and shut them up.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

So okay, nobody bear with me one second.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

I'm just gonna pause it so I can cut it. So bringing awareness back to the uh first responder, veteran, um, any of the those kind of populations is really what we're all about too. And it's really refreshing to hear that um you know you're you take your journey, which is quite significant, and then you help others uh by telling your story. So uh maybe you could uh tell us some um things. We'll we'll bounce back and forth a little bit. Let's talk about some of the um the things that you've decided were worthy of putting into print. Uh what what kind of uh although I know these things just for the audience who who may or may not know you, um tell us about some of the uh the the books that you've written and why.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, so the first one I wrote was five years into the podcast. So we're talking at this point probably 500-ish episodes. Um and it was during, yeah, I happened to just happen to start writing right um before COVID. So I guess the timing was right, we were all at home a lot. But I just wanted to disseminate all the wisdom that I had learned. Like I'm just a perpetual student, I'm not an expert in anything, but I get to speak to all these people, and then as I'm sure you've seen, excuse me, the more you speak to, the the more um the Venn diagram overlaps, and there's these truths that really emerge. You know, people can be from all walks of life, but they're all talking about these same things. And so the first book was a nonfiction, it's really almost like a collection of short stories. Um, and they start off with a story from my career, but it's not a biography, it's just to get that hook to then lead you into whatever topic that chapter covers. So, you know, suicide, sleep deprivation, obesity, whatever the theme was. Um, and sleep deprivation was a huge one for us. Like when I really, you know, the the origin story of the podcast was hearing uh Navy SEAL Kirk Parsley talking about sleep deprivation on a weightlifting podcast probably 10 and a half years ago now. And I'm driving along, and it just hits me. I'm like, why are we not talking about this in our profession? This is everything that we're struggling with that he found in his seals. Um, so that was that was one of one of the biggest ones that I wanted to make sure that I imparted to people understanding not only the implications of shift work, but the chronic disease, you know, ripple effect of sleep deprivation, the cognitive decline of sleep deprivation, which in your world could literally be the difference between realizing a teenager is reaching for his ID or thinking that a teenager is going for a weapon, you know what I mean? That that split second, you know, and you don't really hear that in some of these, you know, publicized um officer-involved shootings. Well, how long, you know, has the officer been working? Have they been doing two shifts back to back because they told they couldn't go home? You know, were they trained highly, etc., etc. So that was the first one. Fast forward about another three years, and uh I wanted to I'm trying to get every single medium there's out there. So the podcast, obviously, we have that. We've got books, you know, mine's on Kindle, I've done I read the audiobooks, and I wanted to get onto the screen. I'm like, if you really want to make the biggest difference, that's where we've got to get to. And you know, our professions aren't reflected very well on television. Um, ours is kind of more glorified, yours is usually demonized in a lot of areas, and so, but the the world that we see through our eyes, you really don't get that. You know, I think The Wire did an amazing job, but that was 20-something years ago that that was made. Um, so I wanted to write a fictional story. The protagonist is a firefighter paramedic, but he's going through his own struggles, and as he begins his healing journey, you start unpacking the generational trauma for his father to his grandfather and beyond, and tell that, you know, that that trauma story because for some reason we found ourselves in such a judgmental time, you know, where we've got bums and crackheads and you know, whores and all these horrendous derogatory terms for a young person whose path took him to a place different than yours or mine. And and without compassion and empathy, how are we going to pull them back from you know where they are? And I would argue that the police and the firefighters and the paramedics out there are on that fringe and are some of the the last hopes for these people. So so that was the point really of writing the second one was to really show our world, but not just the you know, the fires and the the rescues, but just the the compassion and the kindness and the empathy and you know how negative the judgment can be, you know, how it can drive an addict further into addiction. So sure. So that was the second one. Um and now I'm working on on getting those uh, you know, as a a TV show and try and you know put some put some kindness and compassion back into the screen because I think it's been used to divide people a lot recently.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

So well, that's outstanding. Uh do you have any uh solid plans on that or the there's some features out?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah, so feel feelers at the moment, it's on it's on some desks, but okay, you know, I like you and I, you know, when someone pushes three numbers on a phone, then we just get in our vehicles and off we go. Hollywood doesn't work quite as uh quickly, so having to be patient. But you know, I I've got people that are you know looking at it at the moment, but um great. And it's some really, really amazing people that said, you know, once it's up and running, they will be part of it, which is phenomenal. But it's finding that that real anchor point human being that gets it, that wants to make it for the mission first and the money second, and that's the hard part. You know, there's there's a lot of money first there.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Oh, absolutely. So so mission and purpose, that's kind of what we kind of drive home, right? Um, I had uh Ernie Stevens on uh just a couple of weeks ago, and he did a uh uh it turned into a documentary type of uh HBO film series that's uh uh been renewed for like 15 years now uh called uh Ernie and Ron. I don't know if you uh uh cops in crisis. I don't know if you ever saw that. I haven't, but it sounds like I need to. Yeah, it's really interesting. So he um he spent some time um and kind of um innovated the uh the first crisis intervention team, the first CIT for police pardon. So he had some rudimentary training to start, and then they're out in the field. They were bringing some practitioners with them after the safe and all that, but um very innovative, very interesting things. And then as I was talking to him and he went to a screening um and they asked them to come up to the front to talk. Uh he didn't expect it. And he had everyone said okay, and they started sharing stories, which was just amazing. And then a couple of them said um they had actually been impacted by what they had done. And told them, you know, if it wasn't for you, you know, I wouldn't be here. And um he got quite emotional, it was quite interesting to to see that some of us are truly invested in the mission behind uh doing these things. So uh that story that you're telling is so important to get it out there. I I hope it I'm sure it'll come to fruition. So that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, I hope so too. And this is exactly that. There are there are other human beings that are doing the same kind of thing, and this is this is what the world needs to see. And the irony is I keep hearing people in Hollywood saying that they're they're craving content. I mean, I don't like that word, but I get what they're talking about because we keep seeing them rehash the same thing over and over again. And these, you know, these rehash uh you know very two-dimensional projects. I mean, we're talking tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars. And you've got these people in the real world that have these really powerful stories that no one's ever seen before that actually would make an impact on the viewer, and you know, when they when the credits rolled, maybe change the way they even think. Um, and those are the hardest, you know, to get in front of people. But you know, if you want to make Spider-Man 27, then they're all for it.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

So exactly. So um back to I guess impactfulness and and kind of how it hits home. Um in your your first book where you do introduce some personal information, whether uh it's revealed or not is personal to you. But um have you had people contact you and say, wow, this really made an impact, or I thought of different things, or um kind of give us an idea of maybe how that's that that's come about.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Well, I think you and I talked about this when we spoke a few weeks ago, but there's such uh mythology around writing books. And even even some of us when they're posting the big stack of books, and you think, wow, this person's selling thousands and thousands of books. The reality is you, you know, most of us aren't gonna unless you have a platform or something that just or you happen to write the right thing at the right time, and then a news event happens, and all of a sudden, you know. But so it is quality, not quantity, it really is. And absolutely, when I read the comments on Amazon, for example, and I get you know some of the messages, like kinda my most recent one, I had a firefighter, and we'd been on each other's shows already. And he basically said that he didn't realize how close to crisis he was and even his marriage. And after reading the book, um, and people tell me as well, it takes him a long time to read the book because it's it's a hard read, it's it's raw, it's not Disney. It's tough. But uh, you know, but then he said, now we've been going to marriage counselling, and he said, I you know, you probably saved our marriage, you know, in so many words. And this is this is again, this is not to be patting myself on the back, but this goes to show when when we are vulnerable and we write these these stories that especially our communities can really relate to and our spouses and our kids, um the potential of lives saved from the people in uniform is phenomenal. But then think about every person, a healthy first responder, is then gonna go on to help. I mean, you know, the the force multiplier effect of that is phenomenal. But yeah, I mean, I've had so many people say that it was really hard because I was back there on the freeway, or you know, I can still see that kid or whatever it is, but then they keep reading and then they realize you know the juice is worth the squeeze, and you know, at the end it's a very much a story of hope and healing and you know, understanding there are a lot of tools out there. So and I think that's it. I mean, if you and I can you know look at a blanking a blanking, a blinking cursor on a blank screen and end up, you know, writing something that uh that you know emotes someone thousands of miles away, then uh yeah, I think we're on the right track there.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

It definitely means something, that's for sure. Yeah, and then the podcast reaching out and touching so many people. So the um the focus just for those that that don't know. Um can you explain a little bit about how you seek out your um the people who you wish to interview? And I'll be happy to share how I do mine. Um I've said it before, but I'll say it for new listeners, hopefully. Uh but how do you go about uh seeking someone out? Like how do you vet them or how do you kind of determine that they're a fit for you?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

So in the old days, I think the origin story is actually quite interesting. So we're talking 10 years ago, pretty much now. I think 10 years September is the anniversary. Um I you know just started it up. I thought I was so late to the game back then as well. And there were just people I'd heard on Joe Rogan, on you know, Barbell Shrugged on a couple other ones, Tim Ferris, that I was just like, we have to get these people on. But having a sales background years ago selling on the streets of London, you know, I knew well, if I write 10 emails, probably one person will say yes. So let me let me do the shotgun effect and then see you know if anyone responds. Well, all ten said yes. And we're talking Tim Kennedy, Sebastian Junger. I'm sure I remember some of the other ones, but you know, at the time, people that were you know front and center doing these big shows had written some incredible books like Tribe. Um, and they all said yes, and it was amazing. And I realized you know they probably hadn't had a firefighter reach out to them before, and they were like, Well, this is different. Um, so that was at the beginning, and that was when people still reply to emails, so you know, that was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Before AI took over, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yes. So now for fast forward, one of the most amazing things is I will get out the blue messages from people that have even been guests or people that I know, hey, what about this person? This person's just written a book, you know, and they're some phenomenal human being. And I'm like, uh, yes, absolutely. Let's let's get them on. Um, then like yourself, people will reach out, um, you know, we'll make connections on LinkedIn, whatever. And and as you said, vetting, you know, there is all I'm sure you probably had it. Occasionally you get people that reach out and you're like, okay, this person is just solely interested in promoting themselves. There's no real altruistic element.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

I I've been duped a couple of times, unfortunately, and then I learned my lesson.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, yeah. I've got someone there that, you know, told untruths and all kinds of things, but you know, it is what it is. Yeah, happens. Um, but uh, so that's you know, that's obviously something you're aware of. But so those people reaching out, a lot of people you look and you go, hey, yeah, this is this is definitely uh, you know, an amazing person, and they've reached out to try and be on this one. And you know as well, there's some that have done a blanket email, especially through those agencies. I I don't really look at any of those at all.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

But I have so many that you know my client is interested, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

But then if someone actually is, and especially you can tell they've taken the time to you know, or they actually genuine listen to the podcast, then then yeah. So there's that, and then social media is another one. I just uh just connected with a guy who's Dutch, uh Dutch veteran who's um run, I think it was 26 marathons barefoot for mental health, you know. So you just see some of these phenomenal people, and you're like, well, what have I got to lose? Let me just try and reach out. And some people do, they you know, they they they happen to see it, um, and then you get that way. So it's really I've always thought of it as like Sherlock Holmes. You're like, okay, I'm trying to get to this person, what are the best ways to kind of navigate that? Some of whom you'll never get, not a not a big deal, but um, it is amazing. But definitely the the environment has changed now, and you know, emails are ignored so often. I have a hotmail account too, which ends up in everyone's junk folder, which doesn't help. Um, so now as you probably have, you know, a a mutual friend at least, hey, do you know this person? Do you think they'll be able to be interested in coming on, especially if it's someone who's a little more um you know, well known profile, right? Yeah, exactly. So very long answer to your question, but it's that's okay. It's kind of morphed as time's gone on.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Yeah, and uh basically the same story. Uh people like uh Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman reached out. I thought that I'd get some sort of you know, not even an answer. And yet, you know, he answered me personally, which was uh amazing. Um Forest Science Institute now being a subject matter expert in uh use of force. I really admire those guys. They do some great research, uh, guys and girls and reached out to the CEO uh directly, and he himself responded and he was been on the show. So uh yeah, it it it's it's pretty amazing. Ernie Stevens, like I was just telling you about, um unbelievable, real, real good. Uh Jason Palmaro from Living Blue, um he he he he came on. So um some real hope high profile people who um literally responded to either LinkedIn or to some form of introduction. Uh and and that's kind of how it, as you know, kind of how it goes.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's just getting getting getting in front of that person too, because I know people are very busy. I mean, you know, trying to get on the like you know, Sean Ryan or something, I'm sure is near impossible. But if someone says, hey, Sean Ryan, here's this person and they're a good person, and it's a personal interaction, then you know, then maybe that would happen. But but yeah, so you've got all these layers, but I I truly believe that if you can get to the actual person that you're talking to and they realize that it's a a project that's not self-serving, that's not money driven, it's just trying to make the world better, a lot of people are then gonna go, okay, I can make some time for that. But it's it's getting to that person in the first place. That's the challenge.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah, I I'll give you a very recent example. So uh I'm sure you heard of the company called Vortex.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I have, yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Yes. So Joe Hamilton, he's the CEO, he's the owner. Uh never thought that I would you know he would even answer me, let alone volunteer time. So, yeah, we scheduled it out, which was awesome. He's he was on and he's like, you know, before we started, he says, I really just carved out about 45 minutes. I really want to be on the show, really want to talk about some things because his mission and and and vision were were just so aligned with a lot of what I see in leadership and how a company should be run and and it's not. And go back to like the talks environment that you had. Um totally the polar opposite. So um two hours later, he's like, Oh my god, you know, uh I have to I really have to go. So yeah, it it worked out pretty good. But yeah, you end up getting people like that, you know, owners of multi, multi-million dollar companies who really don't have the time, but they they make the time.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah. Well I think as well it does help, you know, like yourself and and myself and a lot of other people there that have got similar you know shows. When someone sees okay well this is someone who served in uniform for X amount of time. You know what I mean? So it's not no disrespect to anyone you know that starts a podcast you know from scratch but you know when when you have served your country whether you're a you know military member or a teacher or the nurse or whatever and you've got that background and then you're also then trying to trying to amplify that and make the world better and use your experience and then you know bounce that off guests to really give the listener something to take away then you know I think that is a little more attractive than you know four dudes sitting around with beers talking about baseball or or makeup or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

I think so too. It also gives a little bit of legitimacy and as well there is sort of an instant connection usually between veteran medical firefighter you know uh uh police officer you know everybody kind of understands the the world that revolves around yeah and as you had mentioned and we'll circle back to that because it's so important uh not only sleep which we'll get to in health and nutrition that you spoke about but uh the family we'll we'll kind of start with that um there is a really high divorce rate as you know in all military force responders right um we attribute that a lot of times to hey I may be in a federal service where I have to move around I may be in the military I have to move around I might be on call in your case you could be 24 hours right or on another shift where you're gone for an entire you know day or two and then you come back and you have to kind of decompress a little bit and the family kind of feels that. So uh I always say it's not just the person it's the family.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Absolutely well I mean this if if you kind of walk back to I don't know maybe you you definitely came on a little bit before me but I mean I entered the fire service in 04 and I got you beat I'm old. Yeah but I was gonna say I know because I only had a 14 year career as well so I'm not saying that you're old but I my career it's all good. So um but you know you hear this well you wait in 10 years you'll be on your third marriage and have an alcohol problem ha ha ha still right and at the time you're like okay I'm supposed to laugh at that I guess I'll laugh but now as we sit here it's not funny at all. There's nothing funny about that. And if you went to an interview with a Bank of America or a supermarket or Starbucks and they told you that yeah they'd be like okay I'm not working here this sounds awful so you know this is the problem is that was a huge red flag even then that something was broken. And you know then you hear and which really irks me police officer a firefighter takes their own life and people say oh yeah but they were going through a divorce but why were they going through divorce?

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

That's the question. You know were they and that's not the only reason of course there's all these reasons that stack up to get someone to a point of wanting their own life but yeah the the complete disregarding of the fact that the job massively contributes to the degradation of a marriage degradation of relationship with kids and that shouldn't be the case. If our men and women are going to be gone for you know 10, 12, 24, you know, 48 hours or in the military you know X amount of months then we need to make sure that we give them you know ample time to recover physically and mentally but also to be present with their their family. So we are starting to see now um thank God a revolution in Florida and this has come out of and this is national like a complete nosedive of the fire service and it's not the profession. People get their heckles up like oh people talking about you know negative about no there's the profession and then there's the way that we're worked and those are two very different things. The Northeast has been working 42 hour work weeks for decades. If you go to California right now you're gonna find a lot of departments are so understaffed that they're working 72 you know I had an Anaheim friend of mine was working a 120 hour shift that then when I spoke to him. Wow exactly without you know and we're talking Anaheim is a busy city disrupted or no sleep depending on the night so unprofessional dangerous and you know five days away from the family. So what's happened now is there's been a push and I've been fighting for this for a long time you know and trying to bring all the people to make the case alongside some incredible people in each of these departments sort of you know fought the fight in their own place but to to standardize a 42 hour work week for firefighters so a 24 hour shift and a 72 hour rest period and that's reinvigorating people to want to join this the the profession again. And they're seeing the lines starting to go around the building just like they used to 10 you know 15 years ago. So yeah. But that's a big side effect that is also the you know the relationships now not only are they going to go home when they're supposed to because they're gonna be fully staffed but with that extra shift they're not going to be a a ghost of a father or mother when they walk through the door they're actually going to be able to be present and I think you know as we see this in the fire service I I know I'm not hoping I know that you know everything from the alcoholism rate to the divorce rate we're gonna start seeing it falling because now there's still other factors you know culture and that kind of thing but from a rest and recovery point of view we've started to mitigate a lot of the things that the scientific world had proven were detrimental for our mental health emotional health and physical health.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

I would also kind of add to that and see if you uh I'm positively you'll agree it's also going to help with the overall uh wellness of the firefighter or first responder uh so not only can they do their jobs more effectively but it's going to lessen the burden on the medical side uh meaning that the insurance is going to be lower potentially they're gonna have less time out less injuries it's all going to be compounded.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yeah exactly and you hit on the the thing so so there's a what's the right word I always say the the lazy boy jockey you know the the the sit down you look making us look bad guy you know saying oh well you know the kids now they want more time off you know they're weak this generation and I and that's absolute rubbish you know performance is what we're chasing and I tell people how many NBA titles how many Stanley Cups how many football world cups have been won by teams that didn't sleep three four nights that week none zero go listen to you know the the sports experts the sleep experts that these sports teams have you know the the breathwork coaches and the physical therapists and they have a a a village around them to make them perform at the highest level so it's not about I mean it is about the health as you said but it's also about performance and going back to your world now you've got an officer that's you know had good rest and recovery you know I I think for example there should be a model where in your world because you can't do 24 hour shifts if you work night shifts you get more time off if you work day shifts you get a little bit less you know so that way rather than changing the pay you're like all right well you know if you do if you do X amount of hours and yeah yours is actually a 32 hour week that you know while you're on night shifts so that you can get because it's that they're two different shifts completely. So now this person pulls over that teenager and you know he's reaching for his wallet and that officer is well slept and well trained and held to a physical standard and makes the right decision, realizes that it's a scared teenager just trying to get the ID and doesn't pull the trigger.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Well we we have to revisit those three huge points briefly though but we'll revisit them. So you had mentioned rest which obviously comes with the ability and the time to get the rest hence the schedule and the things that you've been talking about. Number two, you had mentioned well trained which I'll stop there at number two and then I'll I'll remember number three in a minute. But number two, well trained in the law enforcement military world a little bit different right so military you have time dedicated to training that's all a part of it that's what's built into it. Law enforcement there are mandates you meet these mandates however many times a year and you check the box and you don't necessarily get the proper training you get training but is it the proper well-rounded training that you would want someone to have and then lastly um having to be basically a lawyer a litigator an administrator and know all the laws know all the case law know all the administrative side of things and put it all together in that split second decision uh that one has to make in law enforcement now turning that over to the fire service um and and I will tell you I have gone into two burning buildings in my career and regretted both of them should have never done it but anyway how you do that all the time I have the greatest amount of respect uh despite what people think cops don't hate firefighters and firefighters don't hate cops. And it's not real. Not true. It's some of the volunteers potentially that just start that maybe you want to see if they started started the fire or not but that's besides the point. As long as they're vetted um there's not that animosity.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

I mean we we set up a scene together there is ICS you know Incentive command there's you know training together there's been a lot more training since tragedies have happened because we found out that bad guys and girls will set fires and do other things that we need to uh train with EMS we need to train with firefighters and they also need to understand what the role of law enforcement is so tell us a little bit about training on the the the fire service side well I mean going to your point I mean the and I've heard Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman you know talk about this several times since we had had him on the show um but that example he gives where there was that tragic shooting and they uh the the officer had I think he had a revolver had fired all his shots and then was was killed and he had the brass in his hand because I can actually tell you I'll I'm sorry to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

No please go go for it. I'll give you the actual context of that because that happened here in New Jersey it was a state trooper and it actually changed our training. So I I'll certainly want to have you finish the story but the actual context was his name was uh Trooper La Monica and he was what used to happen the training would be with a revolver and now this goes back to how old I am but when you would dump the breast out of the revolver you would you would hold it and put it in your pocket because you didn't want to waste the time picking up all the breast all over the the the firing range. So it turned out that during the firefight which he was involved in he was putting it in his pocket and then he was shot under his vest and that's how he ended up dying. And everyone who didn't know what training was said, why in the world during an actual firefight would he be catching brace and putting it in his pocket. Well that's because you default to your training. So I was very sorry to interrupt you but uh that's the only story I probably could really speak about because it was a tragedy that turned into a real training moment. It turned where we would now just get rid of it and be done and we do the same thing with the magazines now just get rid of them because we we found that we don't want to expose and it also comes down to the the microphones. So we don't wear them up here because we found people getting shot it's you wear it here. So you're facing the the threat.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

But please continue I'm so sorry to no no don't apologize and that that illustrates what I'm talking about those training scars or even worse you know the the box checking training which I've been exposed to a lot um you know Haylia my first department did a phenomenal job of training us and we were kind of uh an unusual class because this was at the height where recruitment was through the roof you know and and we're literally fighting hundreds if not thousands of people for a job in the fire service um and uh so they had some they were putting civilians in a non-certified class and then there was half of us who were actually already certified so while these civilians went through fire and EMS training they beat us up for three months on the fire ground. So we were trained so incredibly well but they did realism of training they they challenged us mentally they you know they built us up as far as the the conditioning program we started in PT gear and by the end we were doing all of our PT in full gear with the air pull-ups and searches and all kinds of stuff um but you know I it there's a lot of that yeah the realism in training is important and that again ties into fitness standards and rest and recovery um but I've seen a decline and bearing in mind you know I've been out the the profession now for seven and a half years but and it also depends yeah was was the departments that I was working in when I moved back east as well I'd say the first two set the bar incredibly high and then I was just kind of chasing that ever since but yeah if you're a an agency that just you know has mandatory training you they go through the motions and they check it once or like you said there's a repetition of movement that no one has has realized doesn't make any sense and has given you training scars that can get you killed that's where I feel like you know we're we're missing in the fire service some people love all the fancy Instagram stuff and you know then are not training the basics some people you know barely train the basics um and as you know like the the best the best operators out there in the military are incredibly profession proficient at the basics they're not doing the fancy stuff they have the capacity of course to to you know to expand on their skills but they're you know just phenomenal at the most basic things and I think it's the same with our profession. But with everyone being understaffed and overworked you know finding the opportunity for them to train is one I would imagine that's tough one. Yes and then just you know them not breaking them you know even be able to think properly because you as you know when you train let's say you're at the range you're not better by the time you put your pistol down at the range you're better the next morning after you wake up from a sleep where your brain has processed the learning portion. So for us if we're not sleeping three four five nights a week we might do high angle training that's all well and good but the next morning you haven't slept you haven't actually learned you're really not any better. Yeah so so there's a lot on the performance side and then again you know I keep hammering it that the fitness standard you know if you're on a draw ground and you're huffing and puffing when you're going up the tower are you really getting the most out of that training? And it's a big disservice to both of our professions by not having fitness standards because we knew what was expected you know during the academy and to then get into the profession and have unions and admin fighting fitness standards makes no sense whatsoever. That was the point I was just going to say in the agencies that you found were higher performing did they have a fitness standard that they kept throughout annual they had a culture that's interesting because in an ideal world I mean if you listen to the SEALs if you listen to some of the other groups it's merely self-selection there. I don't think they've got anything on paper that's you know Nigel the nit the Navy SEAL has to be able to do this amount of you know pull-ups it's you go through you know buds on Hell Week and all the other things and then it's either you can or you can't and they self-select I think you know and you'll end up standing in front of a you know company officer and you know you're either still a SEAL or you're not anymore. And I think that's yeah that's the ideal world. But an interesting profession that I've had a few people on that is a great comparison are ocean lifeguards. Now I was a lifeguard in open water but never the ocean I was that's another you know another tier above my skill level but in the lifeguarding world you have to you know your actual certification I think is every two years but then you're within your agency you're usually doing you know qualification every six months maybe every year but you're constantly doing swim training and you know lifeguards and drills and CPR and all the other stuff. And so going to Hawaii you know are you going to see a 300 pound lifeguard you know leaning on the tower? Of course you're not you know you see these felt athletes they don't have to have you know look like a uh muscle and fitness cover model but they can go in there and facilitate a rescue at the drop of a hat. So again now you've got police and fire and you have phrases like oh man I was in great shape when I was in the academy you know and and I've said this on the show many times in Florida the firefighter certification is labeled minimum standards. That's what we call our qualification. So that is the worst you should ever be in your career is when you're in the academy. You should be building on that. You're gonna be older you're gonna be more beat up but you should be more efficient and at least be able to maintain that skill set if not higher but as you know we have guys you know that joke about going up a pant size every five years and again that's not funny because you end up with those YouTube videos where luckily usually the police officer is tripping over or running out of breath and someone's just stolen you know a purse but what if that person's got a knife and they're running towards a kindergarten certainly not funny now.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Or carrying the 50 75 pals of hose up a set of steps and you can't make it.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Exactly my profession yeah I've always said that there's the the phrase thrown around you know would you want you rescuing you?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

And I and I like that ish but that's still about you. My thing is how would you feel if your family died because the rescuer hadn't trained now that's not about me anymore. That's about the people that I love. So I don't want to be that person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

No but again that comes back to uh personal motivation and ethics and that that's hard to teach. So we try to do as I like that term and I'm probably going to steal it. I like the idea of self-selection that that's that's pretty good. I I like that so yeah I I think some agencies do it well and some do it okay and some just don't do it. So there's the gamut. As you had mentioned earlier you had gone into an environment and you tried to be an agent of change you try to to be that that person who said well I know this isn't the greatest but there's something that maybe I can do personally to help change it. Can you expand on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 42:03

So I'll give you one example. So the the fitness standards there definitely a big one but I've got to I've got to give kudos to people that were there before me that already had stood up a um you know a wellness department um and you know we're working on fitness standards and other things and and you know really really motivated got a you know some excellent education so I got to add to that I got to amplify it and and was able to help um finally put the new hires through uh PT when they first you know were going through recruit training which is funny because that was uh department that protects Disney World and up to that point the orientation was notorious that all you ever did was fill in paperwork and then go around the parks and ride rides and I'm not exaggerating. So you're not yeah so the next class when they got there expecting that surprise yeah 80% were pleasantly surprised but there were definitely two or three that were yeah for this exactly but you know and then we did a uh there was a 30-story hotel next to my station and so we did a climb to kind of end cap you know their PT section of the of the orientation and it was a sense of pride then they were brought together and one of the guys that had worked for I think maybe two departments before that and said you know it was the the best training he'd had and again and I agree because it was well thought out. Like I said it was with the backing of these other guys that already had a lot in place. And we did we gave them you know great training and that's just what firefighters want. This is what cops want they don't want you know a low bar. They want to be challenged the right ones.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

So speak to that a little bit because some of the listeners may not you know not speaking bad about y people who aren't in the profession or don't have family in the profession. But y if you don't, you you typically don't get this have behind the scenes, right? So um Let's kind of open the curtain a little bit and say, well you know, w w what does that really look like? What does it mean? Uh if you're making training realistic, uh what does that actually entail?

SPEAKER_00 44:15

I'll give you a a worst case scenario. We had a a chief who actually had come from another department and and ended up passing away from cancer not long after that, but he was our training chief for a bit. And the department he came from was aggressive, so I'm assuming that he had been told the parameters in which he could s create this training, but it was supposed to be high-rise training. And we went to I think it was a two-story building to do this this you know pretend hose training. And I'd asked him, Well, how are we gonna simulate what it takes to get to the floor in the first place? And he said, Oh, we'll just walk around the building a couple of times first. Now, let's say that was your training, and now you go to that 30-story hotel that I was talking about, and of course the fire, yeah, it's on the 30th floor. And the the without you know being exaggerating, we have a hundred pounds of gear that we got to carry up. Sure. We've got extra hose, we've got two spare air bottles, you've got the tool that you're gonna use, um, and then your own air pack and your own gear. And so it's a hundred pounds. I was 168 back then, and so that's climbing 30 floors, and then you start going to work. So if you're training people walking around a building twice and then hooking up dry hose and pretending to spray or whatever we did that day, I forget. Is that preparing people for the Gremfell fire that they had in London, for example? No, not even close. So you can check a box and say, Yeah, we did high-rise training that day, but you did nothing to prepare people. And the same in your world, which I hear, if you do a you know, six-shot qualifying, you know, time at the range and you hit the paper target standing there, having walked through after playing with your phone, does that simulate the Dallas shooting that those poor people had to encounter? No. So the realism of training is should be of building on the basics first, getting people to walk before they can run, but then creating a safe environment where it's okay to fail, because that's as you said, you know, all right, with using the simmunition, the guy was keying his mic, and I just hit him under his vest. That's a that's a beautiful thing that we discovered in training without anyone dying. You know, that's what you want to have. You're not gonna get that if you're just doing the most basal things. So the realism comes after you've come through the academy, after you've got people confident, you know, as as the you know, probies, and now you start creating more what-if scenarios, because the what-if scenario is a school shooting, is you know, like I said, the Gremfell fire, is a crane collapsing in the middle of a city. I mean, all these things that will happen one day, you know, are you able to think outside the box and you know, try something, and then in the training ground, oh, it didn't work. Okay, great, then let's try something else. Oh, that did work. Right now we know if we have a real scenario that we've got this in our toolbox, but we wouldn't have discovered that if we did this, you know, absolute rock bottom training where we're just going through the motions, you know, you're clearing a room one time, you know, there's this one table and a chair in the room, you know, you're no one's scared, no one's getting shot back at, and then like, all right, then then we're good to go. We we've got school security down pass, which is yeah, versus some of the you know amazing training that's out there where you know, where you are getting shot at with simulation and you are you know trying to figure out you know who's who's uh a student and who's the shooter and all these things. So I think that's it. It's it's that you know the trades call it the journeyman, you know. You know, you've got that that master at the end of it where it's constantly trying to improve our training. And in the academy, I learn what is a hose and how to advance a hose and what is a ladder and how to throw a ladder. Now, fast forward, you know, 10 years, I know the building construction, I know where I'm laddering, I'm knowing, am I laddering for you know, for um uh evacuation? Am I um, you know, is this a real wall? Is this a parapet wall? And you're just building this knowledge now. Um, and you're just not gonna get that if you're just doing, you know, this, like I said, this box check and training. So um, you know, it doesn't have to be a gotcha either. No one's trying to stump the chump. You're just trying to trying to use your imagination and start critically thinking an environment that is safe, as they say, sweat on the draw ground so you don't bleed on the battlefield.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Yep. So I I think you bring up a real important key point to training, and that is it's not setting somebody up to fail, but it's just learning lessons and and from and also from lessons learned. And you piece that together for somebody who's really invested in in the actual training. And and I also on the litigation side I can say that if uh there is no real legitimate training, that can come back and and haunt uh the department for sure. So and in a worse way, because uh when there's litigation, that means probably somebody got seriously hurt or dead. And and how do you get that back?

SPEAKER_00 49:15

And even from the mental health side, if you know that your partner or a civilian was killed because you failed, oh imagine. That that, if assuming that you have ethics, that is going to haunt you the rest of your life. And the same with your fitness, now that firefighter that, you know, just couldn't make it to that tenth floor, you know, and now those two kids burned up in that apartment, you know, not only is it wrong in every different way that you can think about it, but that person now is going to carry out the rest of their life. But if you hold them to a standard, if you train with realism, you know, if you have days that are rough, you know, where you train in the red and you are, you know, throwing up in your mask and all that stuff, you need some of those days thrown in there. Not to to constantly beast someone, but you you need to understand what a bad day looks like, you know, in the combatives room. Um, you know, that's exactly what will save lives.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Yeah, it it's training with a purpose, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

For for sure. And and then to just the the mental aspect alone. Um we've unfortunately know the divorce rate, we know the suicide rate, we know the alcoholism rate, the drug abuse rate. We we can go on and on with all the uh uh ways that it can turn darker and darker and darkest, right? So besides the the sleep, besides the nutrition, and besides hopefully having some sort of physical requirement, um what is it that you've seen? And I know you've discussed the shift and trying to work the hours out to make it so it could work, but uh when you go to uh you had mentioned in the beginning that you had some great um not necessarily partners but stakeholders who were kind of invested in in fixing things per se. Um how did you get their buy-in or or did you?

SPEAKER_00 51:14

I hope I did. I'm just trying to I'm searching there for the words, the right words that you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

I'm sure you did, but yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Yeah, I mean I just I just had a physician down south who wrote a piece and and you know said that the stuff that I put out definitely made a big difference down there. So that's so good to hear. Oh the way I looked at it was because I mean there's no question there was a lot of resistance. And you've probably seen this, some of the biggest resistance are from the men and women, you know, in the street, you know, like so we can talk about this for a second, then it's change.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Nobody likes change.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

In any of the any any first responder military, anybody will tell you change is not their friend, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Yeah, and it's you know, it is your friend when the way that your being works is breaking you down, exactly. So what I realized though, as I started, you know, interviewing all these people, and like I said, all these you know, strength and conditioning coaches and sleep medicine experts from every branch of the military, and psychologists and psychiatrists, and you know, people like Dave Grossman, and you know, I mean, just so many different perspectives, and again, these Venn diagrams are just overlapping so profoundly. That's when I'm like, okay, it's not James Gearing's opinion. This is this is the thing. Not a single person has said, oh no, you're fine to work 56, 80 hours a week, you know, oh, you don't need mental health counseling. No, no, no, no. You know, you know, suck it up, buttercup is is a technical term, and yeah, that's no, no one has said that. It's all all you know BS. So um realizing that you know there is you know that these are truths, and then it became almost like a court case, truly. And it was like, how can I layer each of these experts um and then address each of the pushbacks? Well, we don't have the money. All right, well, let me show you where the money is. It's downstream with Workman's Comp and retention and recruitment costs, and you know, the the um litigation from mistakes that a tired police officer or firefighter do, and they killed the minivan full of kids in the intersection or shot the teenager, or you know, whatever it was. There is your money, it is there already. Um, you know, we can't get people now. Well, but we could. People were fighting to be police officers and firefighters. So, what did we do wrong, and how can we reverse that? So when you start every oh yeah, but is answered by not just one thing. Well, let me tell you 10 different podcast episodes to listen to for your one that won't work. Eventually there was a critical mass, and you know, there were some some um real thought leaders, Boynton Beach, Hugh Bruder was the chief at the time, and and I'm sure some other incredible people within our organization about three years ago. They were the first one in Florida outside of Boca Raton, which had it for I think about 30 years before them, and that was they were happened to be on 12-hour shifts, and they had a pissing match with the city, and the city said, We're gonna punish you and put you on 24-hour shifts, and they created the 2472, this one that we're fighting for now. And then the city was like, All right, we're done punishing you, and the viafighters were like, No, we're not giving this back. This was amazing. So, so you had them this kind of anomaly in our state. Boy, um Boynton Beach became the second, and then we had Pasco County, Gainesville, and now what's happened is and I share the hell out of everyone that that goes, they're realizing now that oh no, this is this is a tsunami that's sweeping across Florida, and you are not gonna be able to escape this. This this because we have devolved to a point of crisis, so many departments are backed into a corner now, and if your agencies around you make the proactive changes, young people are not gonna go to your city. They're barely going now, but you think you're struggling now, you wait until other way other places around you have made this change, and your you know, five candidates for three positions are now gonna be zero or one.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

So yeah, yeah, we we've seen it in every facet of first response where you know as you had mentioned, you know, thousands of applicants down to hundreds, now down to tens, right? So uh what do you do? And uh an interesting point that I'd like to find out if it entered into any of the discussions you had. In the law enforcement realm, you have what's called a joint insurance fund or a GIF, where uh a lot of agencies will get together and contribute to one insurance where you know they'll then help set standards and they'll assume some risk. Um and then you can bring to them some of the science and some of these things that you've done, some of your best practices, and if you've been accredited, those all those sorts of things. And that could help lower the risk. Um what have you seen on the fire side when you've gone and talked to these uh chiefs or stakeholders that can help manage these schedules?

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Um I just wrote it down because I don't think I've ever heard of agencies doing that with insurance, and there may be some listening now going, Oh yeah, we do. I I just haven't come across it yet. Um but I so the biggest thing is each each of these have just said we're gonna do this. That's really what it boils down to. We have FMLA, which um was the standardizing of the work week. The civilian one became 40 hours, and they had an exception for, you know, I think it was federal firefighters or state firefighters or whatever it was, um, where we don't get overtime until we hit, I think it's 52 hours or 50 hours, I forget now. Um and so that basically was like, oh, it's okay to work them that long then. We don't have to pay them overtime. So it immediately came from a really, you know, unethical place. Why, why should a firefighter not go home the same time as a teller, you know, or a barista? You know, they're the ones saving lives. Um, so a lot of people felt shackled by these, you know, FLSA and all these other you know rules. But what departments realize is that well, yeah, but we could just change it. You know what I mean? And you know, oh no, we don't get we don't get overtime for the two hours over the 40 hours or whatever it is, and or if we work overtime, but that's absorbed by the increase in the hourly pay anyway, so it's pretty much negated. So when departments, you know, realize that hey, we're just gonna make this happen, I'm not gonna wait for anyone else. These, you know, these these national unions that we have aren't doing anything, you know, these these chiefs organizations aren't doing anything, so we're just gonna fix it ourselves. Wow. And so for every single one, you know, it's it's turning the tide now, and it's making people realize, oh, you know, that you are worthy of this work week, and we can turn it around. And then now, as you said, all those young people that decided not to become cops or firefighters or paramedics, they're looking at this going, well, this this actually sounds healthy now. Yeah, you know, 42 hours a week, no mandatory overtime. Yeah, I could actually have a family with that schedule. Um, so I'm excited because I think it's really gonna turn the tide. And then I hope, you know, through osmosis that helps, you know, law enforcement as well, because obviously we don't have the same bad optics that you know law enforcement does. I mean, it had even before, but especially with some of the recent events, even though they were you know blown completely out of proportion. Not saying that you know certain tragedies weren't tragic a hundred percent. No, they're tragedies, but yeah, but they were dealt everybody at that level.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Yeah, but it it doesn't vilify everyone.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

No, exactly. And as I love that phrase, you know, no one hates a bad cop more than a good cop, and I believe that 100%. So, you know, I feel like you know the rising side lifts all ships. Firstly, this is going to help the fire service in general, but I hope that that really does then start lifting up law enforcement again, too. Because as you said, we do work side by side. And any agency where police and fire don't get on, they should probably fire the police chief and fire chief.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

There's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

And then they need to be uh training together as well and include EMS. And when we do consulting, we're always doing uh we start with a tabletop and just make sure everybody is getting along and then and and working right, and then we can bring everyone in. And uh you would be surprised uh by some of the the reactions we get, uh especially in like private schools, things like that, uh, where we said, you know what, we want to bring the police and fire and EMS right here, right inside. And yes, your students can still be here. You know, here's the lockdown, here's what we're gonna do, they're coming in, it's not gonna traumatize them. You know, it it's so they get an understanding of uh of what to do. And some of them have never really seen it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

I was in my son's elementary school during a code red, and it was just a bizarre, you know, twist of fate, and I'm so glad I was because I got to see on the inside. I would have been on the outside responding in an engine or a rescue, but he'd gone to a doctor's appointment. So I was just bringing him back to school, signing him in, and they said, I'm so sorry, Mr. Gearing, but you're gonna have to come in the back office with us because we've got a code read and we've got a lockdown. And so it was me, you know, the the lady at the front desk, and there was another parent and her child, and we're in the room behind the front desk where there's the photocopier, and and there was uh you know paper guillotine, and there's no communication, like no one knows what's going on except the principal. So these poor teachers and these poor kids are terrified because they don't know if someone's gonna kick in the door, and that's the last thing they'll see. And I remember looking at the paper guillotine going, all right, well, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

Well, at least they got something.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Yeah, if if if something happens, then if we see someone, then I'm gonna have to rip this thing off, and yeah, you know, this is it, you know. But um, but my son was there with me, and then I remember him saying, 'I'm so glad you're here with me, daddy,' you know. Oh. Because the other kids didn't have mum or dad with them. So, um, so I really got to see how scary that was for the kids, how scary it was for the teachers, the you know, the the complete sense of the unknown. Um, and uh, you know, and it is so important. And I I think there is a lot of value to sh the the seeing seeing who's coming, I guess is the best way to describe it, the way that you're talking about. So the kids know that they're not just you know praying that there is a group of tried, you know, highly trained men and women, um, hopefully who have learned from the Avaldi incident that will be, you know, actually make an entry and and hopefully coming to stop that person before they you know they get to any of any any of these four little innocent kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

So uh absolutely it's gone from you know secure the scene to teams of four, then teams of three. Now it's okay, if you're there, you go in, right? So things have evolved and they've evolved for a lot of different different reasons. And once you have that training and knowledge, and uh there's a a video that I use um for a an actual uh and I will use the term here, but usually we call them active assailants. We don't say active shooter uh because we don't want to scare uh people, so we just say active assailant. But uh this active shooter was going on. Um officer pulls up and says, give me two people. They access, they had the uh the knocks box, you know, the where they can get the key to get in, and you know, they they go in and they start clearing, and they hear the gunshots, and they immediately you know go right to uh but it showed you several things, and I use it for uh for two purposes. One for training for officers and for service bonders, but also for staff and sta and um parents. So it's so important for them to understand why these things are being done. And if you don't involve them as stakeholders, um first of all, I met so many teachers who would literally uh lay down their life for their their class for their kids. So it's kind of amazing, right? Uh just like you would have um lately and you have done, you know, you run into that burning building or you deal with that car that could explode and and you're not thinking of yourself. So gunshots, right? And most people want to go the other way, you know, go go to the trouble. So you know, the you find that these people are willing to do the same thing. They're they're very very giving of themselves and they're willing to do that sacrifice. So why not give them at least the knowledge if not some tools so they're a little more confident in in what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

We had a we had that code read, and then about I wrote about it in my book, but about two or three weeks later, my my bonus boy, my stepson, was in high school, and they had a code read, and we literally got the text, you know. Um, we hear shooting, we're in the library, and it was like my heart absolutely sunk. And it was before you know all these freaking uh you know sirens are going past our street, and I'm like, okay, that's not good. You know, we know that kind of response. Turns out what had happened is there was actually a shooting in the next school over, which is you know quite a few miles away. But um, I think you know, again, the kind of telephone game had got it where they thought there was a shooter in their school, and you know, thank God that was a false alarm for them in in in my son's school. But the the heroism of the SRO and the teacher in that particular one, the SRO went running towards danger, and he didn't know what he was going to expect, but he went straight in again, unlike Parkland. Um, and the teacher, I do feel like this was a little bit more of a cry for help shooting, but regardless, he shot through the classroom door once, struck a kid in the the ankle. Thank god that was the only injury of this. Um, some said to me that it was a shotgun and it jammed. I'm not so sure if it jammed. I it almost feels like he, you know, because as you know, the the legit shooters have more than one weapon, you know what I mean. So if there was a jam, they'd go to the sidearm, whatever. But um, but anyway, the teacher actually talked him down, took the weapon away, and then the SRO came and and you know detained him. So huge respect to that teacher. And then there's another incredible video. I think it's a sports coach, and it's a kid with a shotgun, and it's kind of the same thing, I think, you know, and he ends up taking the shotgun from him and then giving the kid a hug. You know, and so whether you're you know, God for Bid actually stopping someone who's truly completely homicidal, or where it's that whether it's more of the middle ground like those two ones. I couldn't agree more. You know, the heroism that we see in these unarmed civilians that don't have body, you know, armor, they don't have a sidearm, they don't have a crew of you know three other men on a fire engine or whatever it is that have stopped so many of these shootings. That principal recently that tackled the kid when he first walked in, I mean, you're right. I mean, we we we kind of discount those, but they're they're absolutely phenomenal and they should be held front and center as the example. And then if we have someone, because my my profession, I've heard it too. I'm not going in, I'm not paid to do that. Then then you should take the badge off, put it on the desk, and and leave. Because if the teachers and the the the coaches are willing to do this unarmed, and you're telling me you won't make entry with body armor, and you know, then then I think we've got a problem then in as far as culture in that particular department.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

Oh agreed. And and I like how you bring up the idea of culture. So that's why I think it comes full circle to training. And when we um involve the faculty and we involve the parents, it it it helps us so much with that buy-in of why things are going the way that they are. I think it makes a big difference. Yeah, for sure. And um kind of lastly, uh, you've interviewed so many people. Um tell us a little bit about what kind of sticks out. Um I know that and in doing my interviews too, of course, everything kind of converges at some point, right? Which you've mentioned. I like the idea of the Venn diagram because things overlap. But um what are some things that kind of stick out in in your mind from some of the ones that you've done over the years?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

I think one area, because when you were talking earlier, it made me you know reminded me to make sure to talk about this when we talk about the you know, especially the mental health crisis. Um, I always give credit to Jake Clark, who's the founder of Saver Warrior, for really initially opening my eyes about the incidence of childhood trauma in a lot of first responders and military and incarcerated men and women too. Um, out of 10, usually I think a lot of us on average are a six out of ten for adverse childhood experience. Um, and the only difference between us and someone who's behind bars are the mentors that we had along the way. You know, was it someone slinging dope, or was it a you know, a sports coach that that kind of sent us in a different direction? Um, so and that's incredible, you know. That that's and yeah, that makes us who we are today. And I would argue that, you know, if you were a choir boy and had never had any discomfort, you probably wouldn't be a very good firefighter or or cop. I mean, you just think you would. So having that in your background is not a negative, but having it in your background and not addressing it and not working through it is a negative, and I think this is a really powerful opportunity for us to almost have the conversation when you're on the draw ground, you know, and you've got you know, whatever, 20 recruits to say the fact that you are standing here today, you guys are probably being through some shit, and that's okay. But we are gonna give you an opportunity to start, you know, working through that kind of mental training the same way as we're gonna do push-ups and runs and you know, go the range and do combatives, because all of these things are hand in hand, and you need a clear mind to make a good shoot, you need a clear mind to find that kid in the middle of a burning home, and so acknowledging that element and having that conversation at the front door and giving the people the tools. So we're gonna have X amount of counseling sessions as you go through the academy. Yep. Um, so that you know you might start off talking about the weather on baseball, whatever, but eventually it's gonna lead to unpacking some of these things. You might be ready day one, you might be ready, you know, a year from now. But you've normalized that conversation, you've created a relationship with a therapist, and then if you do have you know relationship issues, a really bad call, whatever, you know, all right, I'm gonna lean back into you know Cindy or you know Jonathan or whoever the person is that you're seeing. And understanding that that's a performance conversation, if I'm gonna get in a flow state, if I'm gonna have that, those right reactions, you know, as as Dave Grossman talks about in you know, on combat and on killing, I need to have that clear mind. And if I'm my mind is busy because I've got trauma that I've never addressed, then I may make the wrong decision or I may miss the bad guy and hit the good guy in that split-second moment. So framing it as a performance conversation and starting from day one, and the fact that you are here, you've probably had this, and that when you work through that trauma and you have that post-traumatic growth, that is resilience. You are going to be a stronger operator, you're gonna be a more compassionate and empathetic person, that is a strength, that's something we want you to bring in. But working through it versus you know burying it down, I think that's a that's a really important conversation that has been layered so many times. I mean, you know, the prevalence of sexual abuse by a lot of the males have had on the show blew my mind, you know. But when you hear the the psychedelic retreats and a lot of the therapies that people do, and they think, oh, it's gonna be that, you know, that line of duty death that I was on, or you know, my time in Fallujah, and then it turns out it wasn't. It was when they were six that really was the you know what what you know was the genesis of their suffering. So every guest that's really layered that particular conversation, I think, is the other thing, aside from what we've already talked about, that I think is so important. If we can reframe the we look, you know, the way we look at that, that don't try and select choir boys in in the first place, where you force people to lie on polygraphs like I had to about our upbringing, and then you know, acknowledge it. Obviously, don't still be doing bad things if you've done bad things before. You've got to show that you don't do it anymore. But then working through your struggles, I think that's how you're really gonna be able to set the bar high and have some phenomenal people that not only operate at a high level, but have longevity and thrive in their career and then have a long and healthy transition into retirement.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

Yeah, and transition, I think we'll we'll leave for another day because that is definitely a a topic that I I focus on. Pardon me. Um but acknowledging that and instead of always the negative and looking down, it's building people up. And it's such a such a key piece. So yeah, kudos um to being able to kind of fit that together and then tie it in with some of the stories that you've heard and people that you talk to. Um so the last thing that I always end with is what would James of today and it's I already don't know the answer because you answered most of it just now, but I'll throw it out there anyway. Um, tell young James, the recruit who's standing there you know, ready to be a um probationary firefighter.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

It's funny because when you have you know when you're asked these questions, um, firstly would young James even listen in the first place because he doesn't know any of this, second, and secondly, the environment wasn't right. Because I could tell him, oh James, you know, fight for a healthy work week and you know understand me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, under do you do more breath work and meditation, but um so I don't know if I would. I really don't, but I but I think here's what's exciting, I'm gonna flip it around. Okay, I literally have said this to a couple of people. I've got one of my son's friends just finished Fire Academy, is about to be hired by this local department, which is about to begin their transition as long as they sign the contract in two weeks. Um, the department that is, they're gonna begin the transition to a this healthy work week. That's great. And then my coach as well, um, where I train um CrossFit uh not CrossFit, it used to be a CrossFit gym. Um he's joining as well. And I was telling both of them, you are coming in at the perfect time. This is when my profession is really going through a revolution, and you're gonna be entering in a place where they're gonna really value your performance, your longevity, and you're gonna have a phenomenal career, and your family are gonna see you as much as they should be seeing you. So I think telling young James today in the version of them, um, that's been really exciting, you know what I mean? So, you know, the 20, whatever it was, 22 years ago when I was a young recruit, I just don't think that environment really allowed anything else to change. I was going to a blind, I had no family in the fire services in a different country, but telling the young versions of us now about this profession and getting them excited, and also seeing, as so many people have said, that the young, the good young candidates of today, the cops, the firefighters, are so well prepared because we've seen this evolution in strength conditioning, in, as you said, realism in in weapons training, in jujitsu and MMA for the I mean, all these things that it excites me that this next generation could be even better than us. And we want that, you know, you want the coach wants the student to be even better. So I think that that's it. I wouldn't go back in time. I'd find the next young recruit and impart the lessons that I've learned so they do have that information at the front door.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:44

Outstanding. Well, James, thank you. And I I do finish with uh saying one more time, uh, James Gehring, uh, let us know your uh podcast, how to get a hold of you, uh, where your books are. Um, just I know you don't do it for that reason, but I always like to offer it. So please.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

Yeah, so the podcast is behind the shield. Um, you punch that in in Google, you'll find it anywhere, but it's on iTunes and you know Spotify and all the places. Oh, it's Under. Yep. And then uh the books, the first one is called One More Light, inspired by the Lincoln uh Park song. And then the second one is called Kinder, which is the uh the novel, the pseudo-fictional novel, based you know, a lot on real life. But yeah, and then on Instagram is behind the shield 911.3.0, because Instagram shut my page down twice for being kind and wanting to bring people together.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:40

So nice, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:42

There we go.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:42

Yeah, yeah. Google Google's funny too sometimes what you can put on there, but yeah. Yeah, understood. Well, thank you so much for uh your time today, uh, your insight. And uh obviously thank you for your years of service and giving back as well and what you do now today. Um can't be understated that you're bringing uh so much knowledge and so many uh stakeholders together that you're effectuating change uh right now. And it's it's pretty awesome. So um the there's uh there's a thank you that you may or may not have gotten, but uh I'm not even in Florida, and thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

Yeah, well, thank you so much as well. The people listening, Jeff is gonna be on my podcast in a few weeks too. So I get to uh flip the microphone. But I I really appreciate you having me on. It's been a great conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:32

It has, and and thank you very much and very insightful. Uh really appreciate your time. And and uh I always end with be safe, however that might look in your world uh today, but uh be safe out there and keep doing what you're doing is is pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

Likewise. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:50

Thank you.