A Book with Bubble Tea (波！） - Give you a different cultural perspective in parenting, business and life

[Self-growth] EP28 “All I am doing is just to create a space” - Rethinking education, learning, and skills needed in the next 10 years from the lenses of a computer genius | 《My 99 Private Drawers and the Survival Mindset in the AI Era》by Andrey Tan

• Meara He • Season 2 • Episode 28

Share episode

In Taiwan's politics, there is an atypical figure. She is a serial entrepreneur and civic hacker turned minister, with an IQ said to be 180, yet she didn't even graduate from junior high school. She is the first transgender minister in Taiwan's history and was one of the key contributors to Taiwan's success in fighting against Covid-19. Her name is Audry Tang. In today’s book, I want to explore with you her unique view points on life, learning, education and skill sets the future needs? I am sure it will be inspiring to you.



Show Note

Book Title in English: My 99 Private Drawers and the Survival Mindset in the AI Era

Book Title in Traditional Chinese: 我的99個私抽屜：唐鳳的AI時代生存心法

Author: 唐鳳 Andrey Tan


Follow us on IG abookwithbubbletea
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@ABookWithBubbleTeaWithMeara
Would you mind giving us some feedback? Click HERE


Music Credit
Composer / Writer / Author: KROTOV VLADYSLAV, IPI: 378003660, MoodMode.

Speaker 1:

In Taiwan's politics there is an atypical figure. She is a serial tech entrepreneur and civic hacker turned minister, with an IQ set to be 180, yet she didn't even graduate from junior high school. She is the first transgender minister in Taiwan's political history and was one of the key contributors to Taiwan's success in combating against COVID-19. Her name is Audrey Tan. In today's episode, I want to explore with you her unique viewpoints of life learning, education and skill sets the future needs. I'm sure it will be inspiring to you to hear about her atypical perspectives.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to A Book with Bubble Tea With your host, mira he. Here I share takeaways from East Asian books on parenting, startups and self-growth. Seeking insights beyond the typical English shelf, want to be a better parent and achieve more in life? You are in the right place. Grab your bubble tea and let's dive in. Hi everyone, welcome to A Book with.

Speaker 1:

Bubble Tea. How is everyone doing? This is Mira. Have you ever come across someone that is quite atypical? If so, would you want to avoid that person or try to get closer and try to learn more about that person?

Speaker 1:

In today's episode, we are actually going to talk about a very atypical politician in Taiwan's political history. This person is such an extraordinarily atypical. She is the first-ever minister of digital affairs in Taiwan, the first transgender person in the top executive cabinet, a top 100 global thinkers for 2019 by Foreign Policy magazine, one of the top 10 computer programmers in Taiwan and a world-renowned civic hacker. Her apps and tech initiatives helped stabilize the COVID situation in Taiwan and protected the country from cyber attacks from China. But beyond all these, what's so atypical about her is not these dazzling titles, but you know, her highest level of education an education quote on quote here is only elementary school. She didn't even graduate from junior high school, but she is considered as one of the geniuses from a very young age. And this atypical person is Audrey Tan, or Tang Feng, as most of the Taiwanese people would know her by.

Speaker 1:

In the book I want to talk about today is called my 99 Private Drawers Audrey Tan's Survival Mindset in the AI Era, where, in Chinese, 我的99个四抽体 Tang Feng的AI时代生存心法, written by a journalist, mei Zhenqiu, and narrated by Audrey Tan. The author is a well-known journalist and editor. This book is her collection of a 15-hour interview with Audrey Tan, focusing on Tan's way of thinking, learning, opinion about the internet, work and life. I have to admit, before I read about this book, I knew very little about Audrey Tan. I mean, I know she is highly praised, I know she's very famous, very popular, especially in Japan, but I knew very little about her thinking and her point of views. I just knew she's one of those weirdos, weird but famous people you know. But the more I read about it, the more I feel enlightened, if I may use the word. I feel she opened up a lot of the thinking and perspectives that I just never thought about. She gave me a different point of view. Perhaps it's from her unique journey of growing up, the atypical educational journey especially, and then her family dynamics. I found a lot of the perspectives she has are quite different, quite different to how people normally think, and I found that very fun and exciting. It opens up different possibilities for me, even, and that's why I want to share about this book with you today.

Speaker 1:

So in today's episode I'm going to share four things that this book made me rethink the most. They are first, auditory tons take on education. Second, auditory tons take on learning. Third, auditory tons take on creating a space. Fourth, auditory tons take on the skills needed for the next 10 years. And at each section I'm going to ask a few questions to help us rethink how tons weight may spark new thoughts in us. But I just wanted to also make another thing clear before we begin, because auditory tons was a born male and turned female at age 24,. Therefore, to avoid confusion, I'm going to refer her in the podcast, as she were her even for events that occurred before her transgender declaration. Just avoid confusion, all right. So let's get started. First, auditory ton on education.

Speaker 1:

You know, when listening to Audrey Tons, it's impossible to not notice that this person is quite different from others. The way she looks at things is quite unique and in fact she's been quite unique since a very young age, because when other kids were learning 1 plus 1, she's already challenged her teacher with 1 plus 1, with simultaneous equations, you know. And at age 10, she's ready learning calculus. I don't even know how calculus works at age 39. She's also developed her first computer game at elementary school, teaching her brother how division works, and at age 15, she decided to drop out of junior high school. And since age 16, she's been a serial tech entrepreneur, from developing then the fastest multilingual search engine in the world to developing new search technologies, or to be a consultant for big companies like Thank you or Apple on computational linguistics, oxford University Press on crowd lexicography if that's how it's pronounced lexicography and social text on social interaction design. So you could see like her story has nothing but atypical and from a very young age she's being like interviewed by media as a computer genius.

Speaker 1:

But it's really hard to believe that such a smart kid really had a hard time growing up at school and most of the knowledge she's learned are self taught, where she learned through interacting with other people, she said, between kindergarten and elementary school she's changed to nine different schools. Sometimes it's because of her heart condition. She used to have this ventricular septal defect so she couldn't do any exercise and she said she used to live under the anxiety that she would die anytime. Eventually this was cured when she received an operation at age 12. But she said, yeah, it wasn't easy for her. I mean the anxiety was there. Sometimes it's due to her being bullied at school, she said other kids sometimes got jealous about her academic performance and sometimes it's because of her family decision of relocating to Germany because her father was doing a PhD study there.

Speaker 1:

Tan said she learned by reading a lot and by interacting with people from different backgrounds and different perspectives, starting from her family. She said her family has diverse backgrounds, from like military officers to a court judge, to school teachers, to journalists, to nurse, to nursery teachers and to engineer. She said like they never agreed on anything, like there was never a single perspective that shared among all the family members. They always had very vibrant discussion at home. In the year when she was in Germany, her father actually hang out a lot with a lot of the exiles of Tiananmen and that also shaped her perspectives quite a lot. So from a very young age she's been learning from different sources, from bugs, from her interactions with people, from things that she heard other people talked about. But if there is one thing that truly revolutionized her way of learning upside down, then it must be the invention of internet, she said it opened a whole wide world for her to learn and then she was fascinated to connect with different people worldwide to discuss about issues she cares about and solve problems together, and no one cared whether she was 10 years old, 11 years old, 14 years old, 16 years old.

Speaker 1:

Coming from such an atypical educational background, tan has unique perspectives on school education as well. To her, school is certainly a place to learn, but definitely not the only place. In her opinion, degrees don't matter I mean, she only has elementary school graduation certificate. Titles don't matter, but what it truly matters is simply how much you can learn from that place, the school, and how you can meet other learners there too, including your teachers. In Tan's perspective, the teachers are also just a learner Right, and then how you can learn together on things you care about.

Speaker 1:

And in this fast-changing world, knowledge and information becomes more and more accessible. Teachers and the schools will not be able to teach as if they are the guard to pass down the holy grail of knowledge. Rather, in Tan's opinion, the job of the schools and teachers is to ignite the passion and interest that students have about learning, and the teachers become the facilitators to help each student to learn and to bring resources to students that can continue facilitating their growth. So, in Tan's eyes, if any teachers can see themselves as another learner who learned a bit earlier than students, then perhaps teachers can have even better interactions with their students instead of seeing themselves as the ultimate source to provide correct answers. And this way the teachers can focus on helping each student how to learn instead of cramming them with knowledge. And you know what they need to learn.

Speaker 1:

In her eyes, school is a place where teachers and students create knowledge together instead of simply accumulating knowledge. So my question here is as a parent, we are the first educator to our kids. Do we care more about the specific knowledge we give them or we care more about building them up as a learner to learn anything they desire? And what if the things they want to learn are not useful or beneficial to them? In our opinions, what should we do about it? All right, so I'll leave this to you guys to think.

Speaker 1:

And now let's move on to Audrey Tone's take on learning. Apart from her IQ, what really sets Tone apart is her ability to learn. In my opinion, and in terms of learning, tone also shares how she learns about anything new. Usually, her journey starts with a keyword that just picked her interest. Then she will go through a phase of knowledge expansion by absorbing as much as she could. You know, she could be doing an internet search where she could look into academic journals, where she could go on to online platforms where people discuss about things that she cares about, where she could read books she would go through, like any channel she could find to learn about it, or even computer games, and she is eager to absorb anything she can find relating to it. And while she continues to learn, she will also deliberately ask herself how she could explain what she just learned to other people. This way, she forces herself to refine the knowledge she has just learned. So her journey of learning constantly going through the cycle of knowledge expansion and refinement until she naturally builds up her knowledge map. Additionally, she also constantly seek opportunities to test any knowledge she learns.

Speaker 1:

She shared a story that in 2008, when she was working at social text, she and her colleagues were exploring online interactions and Tone was curious if there was a way to foster more positive, supported emotions in these digital spaces instead of negative, anti-social ones. Her quest for a better understanding led her to a book called Communication Power by Manuel Castiles. This book dwells into how the internet has changed the way we feel, think and behave, going beyond what traditional media like newspapers and TV used to do, and how it sparked political and social movement around the globe. When Castiles released his next book, outrage and Hope, in 2013, he discussed the impact of information and communication technology in major events like Tunisian Revolution in 2010 and the Arab Spring in 2011. When in 2014, during Taiwan's Sunflower Movement, when college students took over the legislative yuan and marched to protest against the decision to let Chinese service industries into Taiwan without public consultation, tone saw this as a perfect opportunity to apply what she just learned from Castiles. So she joined forces with her friend from the civic hacker group, gzerov, armed with ethernet cables to boost internet connectivity inside the occupied buildings. Her aim was to use technology to ensure open and transparent communication between the opposition sides, hoping to prevent any misunderstandings that could lead to violence and to encourage productive dialogue. This was Tone's way of bringing Castiles theories to life.

Speaker 1:

I have to admire Tone's ability to organize it so quickly, and you know just her eagerness to take actions to practice what she learned. She uses the knowledge she gains as a foundation and then expands it with her own insight and actions. To Tone, knowledge is not bound by any disciplines, and in fact, if you want to solve any real-world problem, you need the knowledge from different disciplines. Hence she never confines herself to just one discipline. A metaphor she often uses is that constellations are like academic fields, while stars are physical entities. The connections of these stars into constellations is an imaginary creation. However, because everyone talks about the 12 zodiac signs, it seems as though these constellations have become real. But if there is a star that you want to explore and the stars around it can be combined for your use, then it becomes your own constellation.

Speaker 1:

To be honest, tone's way of learning is not entirely unique, in my opinion. However, what set her apart from us is her relentless pursuit of learning. She is focused and open-minded about any discipline that might aid in solving the problems she is curious about. Additionally, she actively seeks to internalize her knowledge through tangible outputs. Tone trusts her acquired knowledge to take her as far as possible, and I don't think most of us push ourselves that far. Nor do we challenge ourselves to produce tangible outputs, and that's why, often, knowledge remains just that knowledge for us, instead of becoming a part of us or a part of our thinking. So now my question to you is knowing Tone's journey of learning. If you would like to be more effective at your learning as well, what would be the variables that you would like to tweak to make yourself a more effective learner? I think definitely. For me, starting this podcast forces me to have an output, and I think that is a major game changer for me in terms of my journey of learning.

Speaker 1:

Okay, now let's move on to Audrey Tons' take on creating a space. Creating a space may sound odd, but it's such a fundamental worldview of Tons that affects everything she does and sees. To her, a space does not have to be a physical space necessarily, but rather a place with lengths that can connect people to the place, and to connect people with each other, like simply a hashtag online, linking different people under the same hashtag, is creating a space. So this space viewpoint of Tons shapes everything she does. In fact, she says creating a space where everyone can interact is what she's been doing for her entire life, from the video game she created for her brother, or the online collaboration platform or apps she launched, even her office or herself as a Minister of Digital Affairs. These are all spaces in her opinions, and her role here is to encourage interaction and facilitate collaboration.

Speaker 1:

I think the space point of view is fundamentally unique to Tons and it's very different from our typical viewpoints. I mean, when we do something, how often we think deliberately that I'm going to use this as a space to connect with other people and collaborate with them? No, right, because typically we think we are the main character of our own world, this is what I'm going to do, and other people are simply the supporting characters. For worse, they are being pushed to the corners because they are in our way. Like when I come to work, my job is to get my things done right. Or when I build an app, my job is to include the functionalities that I think are important. Or when I do my podcast, my primary perspective is to say what I want to say. But typically that is our viewpoint. Our viewpoint is very me-centric. My world is for me and about me. Other people are excluded. Right, they are there to support me. Otherwise, you know, you don't really care much about them. But what difference does this space mentality make? This space mentality means in tons of world.

Speaker 1:

She knows every space needs other people and it needs a place to connect other people together. She is clear that her role is to create the space and set up some infrastructure to encourage connection amongst people and to foster people to behave in a certain way that are desirable. So her focus is constantly on how to make the space work. She needs to pay attention to how other people think, view, feel and how to connect them, and whether there is anything in common that can bring these people together, and what infrastructures of a rule design that can best facilitate the collaboration and interaction amongst people. For example, when she gives lectures, she likes to use a website called Slido S-L-I-D-O. On that website, students can ask questions and other students can see the questions and vote on the questions raised too, so that those questions with more interest will be pushed atop for a ton to answer To ton. This is her infrastructure design to create a space that encourages all students to actively participate and, regardless of how shy or confident one student is, to speak up in front of others, and she can make anyone from a passive listener to an active learner. Also, she can then understand what her students want to learn as well. So for her to understand the interest of her crowd, of her listeners, for her to further tailor her lecture, so before she gives any lecture, she will tell her students in. All questions need to be asked on Slido, otherwise I won't answer. I would add a wink emoji there just to make this place a better place for discussion. Back to ton, she implements similar concepts of a space design to solve a decade long debate in the government in just three meetings.

Speaker 1:

When she joined the government, she was tasked with discussing whether eSports player could be examined from mandatory military service like traditional athletes. Previous discussions have been stagnant due to departmental disagreements. The original situation was as follows If you asked the Ministry of Culture, they would say that eSport is a sport and therefore it should be the concern of the sports administration. The sports administration would argue that eSport doesn't involve physical activity, so it should fall under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Economic Affairs. The Ministry of Economic Affairs, in turn, would say that they only manage hardware, like the stadium, and athletes are not their responsibilities. This situation was truly frustrating for those involved in the meetings. Understanding the challenges, tan didn't impose a decision, but suggested a framework and rules for open discussion. So each department shared their stance online, allowing all stakeholders, including gamers, to contribute ideas. The meetings would then be built on each other's shared opinions, but any agreement reached and the previous meetings cannot be rejected in the future meetings. When an open space for sharing different stakeholders' perspectives and a clear rule of how to move forward together, the agreement was made and that eSports player could do alternative services for the military like professional chess players.

Speaker 1:

She applies the space mentality to her own work as well as problem-solving, like when she read a lot of negative comments about her own line. She didn't go to criticize those people. Rather, she would think, hmm, is there anything that can be improved on this platform to encourage more collaboration and reduce more hate speech? Would something simply like having more emoji options available for users to choose foster more understanding and support instead of hate comments To her? Leadership is all about ensuring there is a space that is efficient and secure for others to innovate and connect together. This space perspective gives me a new way of looking at many things in life, and we can decompose the space into the infrastructure design, the role design and the ideal behaviors that we want to foster. And here are my questions to you how would this space perspective help you with your parenting, for example, when your kids behave in a way that are not the ideal behaviors you would like to see instead of being angry and shouting at your kids? Are there any infrastructure that you can change or any rules to discuss with your kids that you can implement? And are there any ideal behaviors that you want to foster? And then you want this space design to kind of help guide your kids into that behavior?

Speaker 1:

Now, moving on to the last part of Andre Tans take and I'm going to talk about Andre Tans take on three skills needed in the next 10 years. In her opinion, she believes it's impossible to predict the world we will be in in the next 10 years, so making prediction is not the most practical way. Instead, a better approach is to actually cultivate skills that can solve problems that may occur in the future, and Tans believes the core skills we need to develop are, first, taking initiative, second, interacting with others and third, benefiting each other. She said one thing we know for sure is that the problems we'll be facing cannot be solved by one person alone. More likely, we will need people from different backgrounds, possessing various skill sets, to collaborate. So the three most important skills are being proactive in taking that initiative, interacting with others and collaborate with others, and finding solutions that benefit everyone, or at least the majorities To TAN. Out of the three, the most important one is taking the initiative.

Speaker 1:

When we face challenges, it's natural for us to want to avoid them, but there is another pathway in our brain that is about facing it and solving them. We should strengthen the one that solves problems. Whenever we encounter a problem, no matter how displeasing it is, we trust that there is always a way and we can always find a perspective that resonates with us. In other words, when you see a problem, don't wait for someone else to provide the standard answer, because there usually isn't one. Instead, we should just go and find our own answers, and most likely, the problems we'll encounter in the future will be too fast to be tackled by a single discipline or a single person, like COVID-19, right. Therefore, everyone can start from their own life experiences and think from their perspective, and by combining interdisciplinary, intergenerational and cross-regional efforts with people who are willing to solve the same problem, and with an attitude of inclusiveness and mutual appreciation, we can find a solution together. This is the process from taking our personal initiative to interact with others and collaborate with others, and then from creating a solution that benefit most of people's well-being. That's why interacting with others and collaborating is the second important skill set for the future and Tom's opinion.

Speaker 1:

Tom believes anything worse doing cannot be done alone. You need others to collaborate with you. This belief is perhaps shaped by her background in homeschooling, where she constantly sought advice from other people online, making the concept of collaboration so valuable and fundamental to her. Solving a difficult problem can seem daunting and intimidating if viewed as a gigantic challenge. However, if we break it down piece by piece, we'll realize it's not too difficult. And even if we only know a little bit about it, other people may possess other parts. Just as we work together, we can tackle the challenge and get it done.

Speaker 1:

And lastly, about benefiting each other. The desire to benefit each other is the foundation for collaboration. If you really think about it, if we realize that we cannot solve any major problems alone in the future, then it's not even a question to ask why we should care about benefiting others. So this world promotes competition, with students fighting for limited seats and top universities and adults competing for promotions, higher pay or popularity. Tom believes these things are not important. She thinks that much of the competition for scarcity is artificially created and that it's not necessary for us to participate. It seems to be a little bit faster or more productive than others eventually leads to treating ourselves and others like tools, and that is not healthy and not the right way. Instead, what we should do is to find our own unique path that we can and want to pursue. For example, she never had a university degree, but she has collaborated with many world-famous researchers, and once you start doing that, you will then notice that you attract more teammates who share your thoughts. We all have our unique values. We can all benefit each other and create our collective values together.

Speaker 1:

Like Tan said, many people who are not considered geniuses have their own brilliance. Many who are regarded as geniuses have their own darkness. All of these are beautiful and wonderful. Let this beautiful exist and don't let IQ be the measure. My question here to you is what do you think are the skill sets that the world will need in the future? Are we doing anything now to foster those skill sets for us, for ourselves and for our kids? Alright, finally, my thoughts.

Speaker 1:

When I came across this book, the constant questions I had at the back of my head is how would I behave if I were her mom, like Tan said, when she's in junior high. She felt she needed a break. So she asked her mom that she wanted a place to get away. So her mom rented a shed on a mountain and Tan, when they're alone, got knows how long she said she just read, slept, ate and repeated the same cycle. She didn't even know how long it took her because she lost track of time. She said she eventually went home because her mom came and said oh, the typhoon is coming, let's better to go home. And that's how she eventually decided to go home.

Speaker 1:

But to Tan, she's grateful to her mom's non-intervention approach to her education. In an interview she said at an age of 14, she said her mom pointed the direction for her but never forced her to take the path. And from a young age her mom wouldn't care for her in the usual sense but would respect her. She gave an example. If I say this computer is dark green, my mom would respect me and let me say that the computer is dark green. But a mother who cares for me might take me to get my eyes checked because clearly the computer is white.

Speaker 1:

According to Tan, her mom's respect gave her the freedom and the possibility to fly. But I have to say, as a mother, I really don't know whether it's something I can possibly do or not. I think I'll still probably take my kids to check their eyes. But anyhow, I feel this book opened many perspectives for me to see the world From. An atypical child went through a typical educational path, made an atypical decision about her gender and took on an atypical turn in her career, and now the things she did actually benefit so many Taiwanese people. I would never have the chance to live her life, but from her experiences it sheds light in many things that I deeply care about, like how to educate our kids, how to learn how we're creating space and variables we can adjust to encourage more ideal behaviors of people in the space I create, and what skill sets might be needed in the future. It's such an atypical book for my podcast, but I hope you all enjoy it and you know can have some takeaways that will change your way of thinking too. I really hope whoever listened to my podcast you know we can grow together. You can really feel like we are learning things together. We can get challenged in our viewpoints and find ways to continue making improvements in our lives.

Speaker 1:

Following that, there will be two immediate changes to the podcast. The first thing is we will start posting our podcast onto YouTube channels as well. We hope to have a platform that everyone can find easier to listen to, so you don't need to worry about whether you are having an Apple phone or you are using Android, without being limited, you know, by any of those phone makers, and we can easily share our comments and opinions there. Second, I'm also going to try something new with the format of the podcast, because right now it's just me monologuing, right, but I think in the future, from time to time, I'm going to reach out to a few friends of mine to do an interview together, so we will be discussing a book together to have their perspectives and perhaps the books that I typically won't pick or typically I won't read.

Speaker 1:

I still don't know how frequent I will be doing that, but you know, I've really asked a very good Norwegian friend to join me on my first interview in a few weeks' time. To be honest, I'm a bit worried, but then you know I'm creating a space, right. I hope I can find a way to connect with more people, including my own friends, to foster more exchange and thoughts and thinking in perspectives. Why not Alright. That's it for today's episode. Please do follow us, and now you can subscribe to our YouTube channel too, and if you haven't followed our podcast, please do subscribe here and follow us on Instagram to a book with bubble tea. Let's continue learning, reading and enjoying our bubble tea. Until next time, bye.