603Podcast with Dan Egan
603podcast explores the people, places and things that create the culture of New Hampshire. From the Great North Woods to the peaks and valleys of White Mountains, in and around the Lakes, on and off the Seacoast, throughout the Merrimack the Monadnock Regions, to the Dartmouth-Lake Sunapee area. This podcast educates, motivates and discovers the stories that shape the "Granite State" and its impact on the country and the world.
Hosted by extreme sports pioneer Dan Egan, you’ll hear inspiring in-depth stories, from our featured guests that are the heartbeat of the Granite State through conversationally discussions with New Hampshire’s most notable, need to know folks and characters make New Hampshire truly special place.
603Podcast with Dan Egan
Moose Ecology and Conservation in New Hampshire with Henry Jones (Fish and Game Department)
In this episode of the 603podcast, Dan Egan had the pleasure of speaking with Henry Jones, the Moose Project Leader for the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department about moose in New Hampshire. Henry Jones digs into moose population dynamics, the role of moose in the ecosystem, and human and moose interactions and safety.
At its peak population in 2000, the state had over 7,000 moose. Since then, the population has been in decline, primarily due to winter tick parasitism in the northern regions. Jones explained the factors contributing to the rise and fall of moose numbers, highlighting the importance of young forests for moose habitat and the impact of predators and diseases.
Moose play a significant role in New Hampshire's ecosystem. They help shape forest composition by feeding on young trees and shrubs, which in turn affects the habitat for other species. Additionally, moose contribute to nutrient cycling through their feeding and digestion processes. Jones emphasized that moose are a natural part of the state's environment and have been present since pre-colonial times, coexisting with Indigenous populations.
The episode also covered the dangers and safety considerations of human-moose interactions. Moose can be particularly hazardous on roads due to their size and the risk they pose to drivers. Jones recounted the development of the "Brake for Moose" campaign, initiated to reduce moose-vehicle collisions. He also provided practical advice on what to do if you encounter a moose in the wild.
Visit the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department’s website to learn more about ongoing projects, volunteer opportunities, and ways to contribute to research efforts.
Mad River Coffee celebrates 20 years of roasting coffee, legendary egg sandwiches, meals to go, and live music right off Exit 28 in Campton NH.
For more information about the 603podcast visit 603podcast.com
Hi and welcome to the 603 podcast, where we explore the people, places and things that create the culture of New Hampshire. This podcast educates, motivates and discovers the stories that shape the Granite State and its impact on the country and the world. Hi, everybody, I'm extreme sports pioneer Dan Egan and your host of the 603 podcast. I'm excited about this podcast for so many reasons. First, to share the stories. Second, to meet and get to know the people who create, share and develop the activities, businesses and iconic history of our state. But also to hear from you, our listeners, about the stories and ideas you think that we should share on our podcast. You can check out our website at 603podcastcom to learn more about our guests and to share with us your stories and ideas of people who you think we should interview.
Dan Egan:The 603 Podcast is sponsored by Mad River Coffee Roasters in Campton, new Hampshire Always my first stop in the White Mountains, located just off exit 28 on Highway 93. Check them out online at madrivercoffeeroasterscom. Our 603 podcast is also sponsored by Waterville Valley Resort, new Hampshire's family resort and host of the 2024 Mogul World Cup. Visit watervillevalleycom to learn more and plan your next visit. And we're back on the 603 right here on this podcast. Of course, we explore all things New Hampshire, the people, places, the animals and the things that make the Granite State great and that you know. There's so much impact that New Hampshire brings to not only the region but the country, north America and the world. And today I'm excited to speak with Henry Jones, the Moose Project Leader for New Hampshire Fish and Game Department. Henry, how are you doing?
Henry Jones:I'm great. How are you Dan?
Dan Egan:Great Thanks for taking time to join us here on 603. Tell us about your 603 roots. How long have you lived in the state, are you a native, and where do you live now?
Henry Jones:Oh yeah, so I grew up in Connecticut and then I did my undergrad and my master's degree at UNH and then, after finishing that, I traveled out of state for a bit, worked in Maine and Iowa, and then eventually returned to New Hampshire in 2019.
Dan Egan:Yep, right now I live in Bristol, but transitioning to the northern part of the state as my office has moved up there. That's great.
Henry Jones:So UNH grad and what did you study there? Yep, so undergrad was wildlife ecology and then graduate research was moose research in northern New Hampshire. So it was understanding moose productivity so how many cows, how many calves are the cows having, and then also survival rates and why are moose dying? So cause specific mortality. And that was in northern New Hampshire, the greater Milan up to Errol area.
Dan Egan:How did you get interested in the topic initially?
Henry Jones:Yeah, with moose research or just with wildlife.
Dan Egan:Yeah, moose research. Yeah, with moose research, or just with wildlife yeah, moose research, yeah.
Henry Jones:so as an undergrad I was fortunate enough to work on some research projects involving moose. One of them was doing browse assessment surveys. So at the time this was about 2008, 2009, there was a substantial concern from the forest products industry that moose were eating all the regenerating valuable trees, and so I got to do that work, really enjoyed it. And then I was also involved with surveys dragging clear cuts for winter ticks to learn how many winter ticks are out there, and so both of those things really instilled in me an appreciation for the species I got to go to check stations and actually see moose being checked in and also an appreciation for the habitat that moose occupy. You know, they're kind of a big wood wild landscape species and that's always just kind of stuck with me and maintained high in my interest level.
Dan Egan:Very cool. That's really great. And how that all comes together in this job, I'm sure it's very, very relevant. You know, if people have been part of the state of New Hampshire, they know about moose. You know, if they've driven through, tourists know about moose and everybody longs to see moose. You know it's sort of like a symbol of the state and being out of the city. It's fascinating that way. Moose tours are throughout the North Country and all very cool. And you know, when I as from a very young age coming up to New Hampshire and then moving here in the early 90s, it was all about the number of moose that have been hit and beware of moose and all those sort of things. Take us back to the moose population at its peak and how did it get to be so abundant?
Henry Jones:Yeah, so the moose population peaks somewhere around the year 2000 and it was 7,000 plus moose in the state. And with moose we talk a lot about moose density. So how many moose per square unit area? And when you looked at moose densities at that time, particularly in northern parts of the state and down through central New Hampshire, it was high moose density. When you look at globally how dense our moose population, so it was high on that scale.
Henry Jones:And so how did moose get to that point? So we'll kind of step it back pre-colonial times. You know we don't have a lot of information about how many moose were here. It's generally thought that moose were widespread but they probably weren't highly abundant and and we'll get to that theme a little bit later but moose are naturally a low density species. There's naturally a low amount of them per unit area. And so anyhow, pre-colonization there were moose here and indefinitely used by Native Americans as a resource. And then with colonization the forest was cleared and there was subsistence hunting and so a lot of moose were taken and then also moose lost their habitat. There are four species and with most of New Hampshire being cleared by 1900, there was only a handful of moose in the northern part of Coahuas County. However, in the 1930s there was regulations in place to ban subsistence hunting of moose and the forest regrouped and so the forest was regrowing across all of New Hampshire. So moose habitat was coming back and by 1950 and later the forest got to be a size that there started to be forest harvesting for forest products.
Henry Jones:That creates young forests. So this is really important for moose. The primary food source for moose in the northeast is young forests, these areas where the canopy has been removed. There's small trees growing up, because moose they're browsers, so they feed on live twigs and leaves. That's the bulk of their food, and when you have more of that food in an area that creates more, there's a greater chance that habitat is going to be good for moose, and that's largely what we see in New Hampshire is that more young forest results in more moose. In the 1970s typical.
Dan Egan:No, no, that's fascinating to me because you know just this idea of you know New Hampshire. Being clear cut, I think a lot of people don't really think of us as a state without trees. Right, we're so used to seeing as a state with trees and and, to your point, a lot of you know near that, that moose population was down turkeys deer, all of that right at that time. Just touch on that because I think sometimes we don't give ourselves enough credit for what we've rebuilt in this state wildlife-wise.
Henry Jones:Oh yeah, you know. So mid-1900s, you know there was wildlife and fisheries. Populations were very low and in trouble. You know many wildlife populations had been exploited, you know, during colonization, and so there was legislation put in place that restricted harvest, and also the Fish and Game Department was created to try to manage these populations, to understand them and to try to promote their existence and benefits long term.
Henry Jones:So yeah, I mean, I guess turkeys are a good example. They were largely removed from the state and then reintroduced in the 1980s and look at them now, quite abundant Moose have spread back. As the habitat has come back. Deer populations are increasing as well, also a similar story to moose restriction on unlimited harvest. But yeah, there's many species and water quality has improved and overall awareness of our impact, I would say, is increased as well. And part of that is there is federal legislation that came into place that put an excise tax on hunting and fishing and shooting purchases, and so that goes into a federal pool, the federal pot that's redistributed back out to states, and that is that provided a funding mechanism to have wildlife biologists employed by state agencies trying to promote these resources.
Dan Egan:Yeah, that that's cool. So from regaining your your commentary. So from that point, moose sort of like started to gain some momentum here in the state.
Henry Jones:They started yep, the forest had regrown, there started to be forest harvest and then in northern New Hampshire, northern Vermont, much of western and northern Maine, in the 1970s there was an outbreak of the spruce budworm and that killed a large, large stands of balsam fir and the timber companies that owned these properties at the time. So these are actually paper companies that own the local mills. They went in and harvested the trees that died and this created a whole lot of young forest and it created a road network in these areas that has. So it created this pulse of young forest and then it also created this road network that has sustained that amount of young forest, which has been beneficial for moose. At the same time you also had beaver coming back on the landscape. You know that's another conservation success story and forested wetlands are helpful to moose and many species. So you had all these combined factors and the moose population really took off and at that time there was little predation. Moose are predated by wolves and black bears To our knowledge there are not wolves in New Hampshire and black bears only take moose calves when they're less than two months old, and so overall in New Hampshire that predation impact is relatively low. So moose had all this food and pretty good habitat and they had few predators.
Henry Jones:Population increased dramatically and this is when it started. You know this got us to about 2000,. When we had these high moose densities and it's abnormal for a population to be like this and a lot of times with wildlife populations. You know you'll see these, you know streams, but it's rare that they stay up at that peak. So it was likely something was going to impact moose and it turns out. Since 2000, the population has been steadily declining. It varies by the part of the state you're in. What is causing that decline? In northern New Hampshire the decline is due to high winter tick parasitism. So north of the White Mountains, where there's still a lot of young forests, winter ticks are causing half-moose that are 10 months old to die and then also adult cows to be in poorer condition and have fewer calves. So that's causing the population decline there.
Dan Egan:We'll dive into this tick thing because that's a whole conversation I think I want to focus on. But you know the idea that we had abundance of moose, they were becoming road hazards, right. I mean, the signs were what there was like I don't know so many moose who died or watched for moose, and there were bumper stickers about it. And just talk us through one, that period of time when there was a surplus of moose and the danger of hitting a moose in a car oh yeah, and I should note, you know, my predecessor on at fishing game, christine ryan.
Henry Jones:So she was the moose biologist through the start and the and through to the start of the moose hunt, through to 2019. So the moose hunt was started in 1988 and 1988 and she was a long-standing moose biologist and so at that time.
Dan Egan:So prior to that, prior to that, there was no moose hunt.
Henry Jones:Great Wow.
Dan Egan:Wow.
Henry Jones:Okay, so, yeah, I think it was yep. So in 1988, in the northernmost part of the state, was the first hunt. Wow and so. But about somewhere around the year 2005 or so, my predecessor, christine Rines managing the population and there were hundreds of moose vehicle collisions per year and she was away at a moose meeting in Alaska that the moose biologists from all over the world get together every couple of years and she was at one of these meetings in Alaska and when she was there two people had recently gotten hit and killed in moose vehicle or they they died in moose vehicle collisions and she actually, you know the department got word from the governor that hey, we really got to do something about this.
Henry Jones:And she was in alaska and it just so happens that they had been having just been put on a a large campaign to to reduce moose vehicle collisions, and this is when the whole break for moose effort began, or not began, but really kind of took a foothold and started gaining momentum.
Henry Jones:And so that's when she came up with the idea of Break for Moose, with the bumper stickers and communication really vamped up with road signs and consistent, frequent public messaging at specific times of the year, and at that time there was even some desire by the public in northernmost New Hampshire to have fewer moose, due to the risk of moose vehicle collisions and due to forced regeneration impacts. You know the thing about moose that's. There's a couple things that are super dangerous about them and vehicles is you know their overall size, but they stand tall, and so when you hit a moose with your vehicle, you hit its legs and its body tips in towards the car, so that makes it more dangerous. Another challenging factor is that their body is dark and so at a distance, headlights don't really pick it up. It's only when you get close and can see those lighter colored legs in the winter. So those are both things that can be quite severe.
Dan Egan:So yeah, that's the break for moose. That was the bumper sticker. Break for moose. It was a great bumper sticker. But you're right, it's very dangerous to hit these things Tell me what's what's special about moose, why they matter, why it's important that we have them and as a species, and how proud should we be of our herd here in the state?
Henry Jones:Moose are a natural part of the system. In New Hampshire they were here naturally with Native Americans. They want to be here. You know they've repolonized, so they're an important part of our ecosystem. They help shape the forest. You know. They can help keep a keep an area as more shrubs, which can benefit different species, and they can also affect species composition. Maybe they'll eat the hardwoods in an area and promote some conifer trees to those degree help with cycle, nutrient cycling. They eat large amounts of vegetation, then poop it out. There's a specific species of fly that lives only on moose, really so moose. In the summer it'll have these blocks of hundreds of flies and on its hocks, its back ankles, it gets these sore spots from these flies that are always being there. So it sounds kind of miserable, but this is a species of fly that only occurs on moose.
Dan Egan:You know, I've always wondered about that. And is the moose bothered by the flies? Are they or is they just living with the fly? What's the interaction?
Henry Jones:You know, I don't know. You know, so moose will. That's one reason moose like water in the summer is to get away from insects. They're also select bedding areas that have good air circulation, and and so it's. It's a benefit of coolness, staying cool, but also bugs as well. So their activities when they're not feeding are either well, they'll go to aquatic areas to feed, but then they'll also bed in areas that have good ventilation, and that also will help them stay cool and reduce bugs. So, to answer your question, I don't know how much it bothers them. Moose are usually bothered by something at some time of the year, so I can't speak to like. Are they as annoyed by that as we would be? It's something that I've wondered. No, they do have a thick skin Right.
Dan Egan:So maybe they have that going for them. You know both, uh, literally and figuratively. So, yeah, yeah you, you really wonder uh about it. And you know, with with the moose, um, are they dangerous to humans if we run across them in the wild? What's the interaction with them? Uh, when you bump into a moose, yeah, so it varies.
Henry Jones:The general answer is no. Typically a moose, if it knows you're there, it's going to run away. There will be young moose that are naive, let's say a moose that's one to two years old, that may not know to run away, and so that moose may be less afraid, the dangerous moose are typically cows that have calves, so cows that have young that are less than a year old. So cows with young moose. In the summer They'll be very small, like a third, a quarter of the size of the adult, then also bulls, so male moose in the rut, and the rut is September and October, and so at that time. So cows with calves. If you get in between the cow and the calf or if you are too close, that cow may charge you and in which case you just want to get up a tree, if possible, or get behind a tree and then with yeah. And so I'll say, with most moose, though you just you know what you know. I guess, if you are concerned about the moose being too close, you're too close, so give them their space. Try to make it known to them that you're there. Any wild animal that is cornered can then act unpredictably. So don't corner them. Make it clear you're known With moose.
Henry Jones:You really want to watch the ears. When the ears are up, and alert that that moose is. You know it's aware of the situation, trying to understand, you know, keeping aware of things. When those ears go down and back, that's a sign of aggression and that you are way too close and likely to get charged. And uh, and moose can be lethal. So, um, yeah, you've got to give them their space. Um, and just enjoy the experience. You know giving them their space will let you enjoy it and they enjoy it. And so bulls, during the breeding season, their testosterone can be so high that they can just kind of their eyes can kind of glaze over and be somewhat unpredictable so when the ears are back back and down yeah, so when they're up like this, you know that moose is aware, trying to understand.
Henry Jones:But when they're back like this, that is that moose is uh aware of you and showing aggression towards you wow, good to know, good to note.
Dan Egan:You know, one time, going over the kink in the morning it must have been in the fall I saw two moose, you know, locking antlers and running into each other. It was phenomenal. I've never seen anything since, but it was amazing what was happening there.
Henry Jones:Yeah, well, what size were the bulls?
Dan Egan:They were good size, were they like? Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean you know to me, you know, not knowing anything about moose, but it was, yeah, they were good size racks yeah, so it varies.
Henry Jones:You know, what you most often see is sparring, so younger moose kind of pushing together just trying to figure out where they are in the totem pole. Occasionally, though, you'll get two mature bulls that will really lock up antlers and push and fight when neither one of them is willing to yield dominance to the other one, and so this is not the norm, but that can be quite, quite powerful. You know that. That fighting that's going on there, that's. You know.
Henry Jones:You may have heard of the forever locked presentation so that's, or the forever locked I'm forgetting the word here, but any other the forever lock display and those. Those are two mature bulls that they fought and their antlers actually got locked in each other and the moose I believe they both died in that and then they were found by Ray Deragon. So, yeah, I guess at that time what you are seeing is two mature bulls that are trying to sort out their dominance in order to breed with cows that are in heat.
Dan Egan:That's amazing. It was really quite something. And I remember telling somebody I saw that they're like, wow, you know, lucky to see it. We've got a few places up here in Campton where I used to always see moose. Now I see occasionally. I'll see a moose just past the dam as you're entering to the, the national forest there in the bog area. Of course up in Lincoln there's the. They go out and they will look for moose, you know, are they as popular down here in central New Hampshire? Is it harder to see them now? Or for moose viewing is it best just to go north of the notch?
Henry Jones:You know the highest abundance of moose is still north of the notches. So in short, that would say yes, you should go north of the notches. The abundance levels per unit area are substantially lower. They're about a third of what they are north of the notches, roughly speaking. So all from a numbers level, yes, you should go north. And the ability to see them just in a roadside salt lick is reduced. You know that's what people have come to expect or kind of gotten used to, and so that phenomenon is kind of going away.
Henry Jones:You know, if you want to see moose you've got to work at it more. You've got you can check road salt lakes, but you've got to do it at the right time of year and at dawn and dusk, you know, bright and early. You can also pay attention to things like wetlands. In the summer there are especially in northern New Hampshire. There can be wetlands where moose will go feed and you can get a glimpse of them right at dawn, or even in central New Hampshire as well.
Henry Jones:You know, if you think about where's that moose and spend some time out there, you know trying to see, okay, where is their moose sign, where are their moose tracks, tracks and poop, and then the things you want to look for. If you're going to see a moose, you need to be able to have pretty good sight distance right. So you know ponds, small pond areas and then also young forest, depending on what's around, but that can be quite thick. So the expectation to just be able to go out and go for a drive and see for a moose, that that's probably. It's going to be hard to keep that going, but like many species, you kind of have to look at it more like birding. Now, if I want to go out and see a specific kind of bird, I have to think about what kind of habitat does it use and really try to do some homework and expect that it's going to take a bit of time.
Dan Egan:Yeah that's good. It's a little more of an adventure and educates you along the way to try and find them. So that's amazing. And let's talk about the moose hunt specifically When's the season and how does it fluctuate on how many you're taking?
Henry Jones:Yeah, so the season is. It starts the third Saturday in October. It runs for nine days.
Henry Jones:Nine days, so this year is October 21st to 29th. This year there are 35 moose permits issued and they are in the northernmost part of the state and then also in the southeast Moose permit issuance. Our hunting permit issuance right now is very conservative. We're taking less like approximately 1% of the moose in the state and it's primarily bulls. 60% plus of the harvest is bulls and so right now we're very conservative and just offering opportunity in a way that we are confident will not influence the trajectory of the population.
Dan Egan:And when you take a moose, they're good eating. Tell me about the moose.
Henry Jones:Yes, moose are generally considered very good eating. I don't know if they're considered better than white-tailed deer or not. I consider them very good and I'd say many people consider them better than white-tailed deer. But a white-tailed deer you know, a than white-tailed deer but a white-tailed deer you know. A large white-tailed deer weighs 200 pounds. A moose weighs 700 to 1200 pounds with the guts in it, you know.
Henry Jones:So if you take a moose, you know this is a substantial undertaking and uh, and it requires substantial preparation to to make sure that you are going to be able to process that animal in a way that keeps the meat good and very, very tasty.
Henry Jones:And so many hunters are very good about this and very proactive. But you have to do things like skinning the moose right away and packing it out in pieces, getting that meat cool really quickly. So there are aspects like that. But it's generally very good eating and all harvested moose are required to be brought to a biological check station where we collect a lot of samples from them. We do tick counts on them. We collect their age and antler measurements. We collect ovaries from cows that let us understand how many calves they've had in the past or may have in the people, or understand, lets us understand if they're going to have a calf this year. And then also we uh hunters are asked optionally to collect blood, and most do, and for that we're doing uh long-term surveillance. So you know, we get as much as we can after as much information as we can after out of every harvested moose wow, that's crazy.
Dan Egan:Do the ticks infect the meat?
Henry Jones:no, no. So. Yet the winter tick. It carries relatively few diseases, unlike it's a different species of tick than you and I get honest, it carries relatively few diseases and it's a different species of tick than you and I get on us. It carries relatively few diseases and they do not affect the quality or the safety of the moose.
Dan Egan:And so is the tick. Is it an issue? Are they killing off the moose? Do we have to worry about that, that they could eliminate the herd, or what's happening with, specifically, the tick invasion?
Henry Jones:Yeah, so winter tick. It's a different species of tick than you and I get on us. We get on us black-legged ticks, american dog ticks. So this is a different species. It has a different life cycle. Winter ticks will cause there to be fewer moose. They will not cause moose to disappear, and so what affects winter tick abundance is moose density how many moose you have in an area and also climate Shorter winters are better for winter ticks. So those are the two things that are influencing winter ticks. In New Hampshire we have traditionally had a lot of moose per unit area, which is good for winter ticks, and our winter length is tending shorter. It's really that is. Winter ticks are trying to get on moose from September 1st until there's lasting snow on the ground, and the longer it takes for lasting snow to show up, the more time these ticks to have to get on moose. So there can be fewer ticks in an area, but if they have a longer amount of time, they moose still get the same number of ticks on them.
Dan Egan:So can they kill a moose?
Henry Jones:yes, yep, so it's, but it's a numbers game. So it's typically when moose has 30,000 or more winter ticks on it, that is when it impacts their, their health, to a degree that that is pretty severe. So moose with 30,000 to 92,000 and we we counted the number of ticks on moose that died when we were understanding the cause of mortality for moose in northern New Hampshire and we came out to an average of about somewhere around 45,000 ticks per moose. And so it's a numbers game. And so what happens is these ticks get on moose in September through to lasting snow and they stay on all winter. The winter weather doesn't matter. They're under the coat and they have some blood there, they have warmth, they're fine.
Henry Jones:In March and April that tick is in its adult life stage and they all take a blood meal at the same time, over an eight-week period. And this is a time of year when moose are naturally in their poorest condition. If you think about moose, they eat live twigs and leaves. If you think about moose, they eat live twigs and leaves. Well, at that time they've been eating dormant live twigs for several months and those dormant live twigs have their lowest nutrient levels of all year. So moose naturally are in their poorest condition at this time.
Henry Jones:And then you add on all this blood loss to winter ticks. The way moose replace the blood is they need energy, so they metabolize their fat and muscle to do that. And this naturally occurs even if they didn't have ticks on them. But the ticks cause them to metabolize more of their fat and muscle. And so small moose, your moose that are 10 months old, if they have a lot of ticks on them, they won't have enough fat and muscle to meet all this needed energy and so they'll die. Adults will survive, but that will cause an adult cow to be in poorer condition and then have fewer resources to put towards growing calves, growing a fetus and then during lactation. So that is how winter ticks, you know, impact the moose. And then that influences the population when you have fewer moose making it to one year old and fewer moose being born.
Dan Egan:And is this sort of global warming in effect with shorter winters?
Henry Jones:Is it directly tied into that or it's the combination of moose density and climate change, and so, you know, in recent years the onset of permanent snow seems to be getting later. The overall trend is such, and so that tips that favor and balance of winter ticks, but a big part of it is also moose density, and so you know what we see. You know this is a a situation that is occurring across the northeast, from Maine, and then there's there's moose down all the way down into Connecticut, there's moose in Massachusetts and Connecticut and then in the Adirondacks of New York and moose in these areas that have fewer moose per unit area in Massachusetts and Connecticut and the Adirondacks of New York. They have lower winter tick levels on them and less of this tick-related mortality Wow.
Dan Egan:So just by having fewer moose, there's less ticks.
Henry Jones:Yes, yep, yep, yep, and so that's part of the conundrum. Is the herd healthier?
Dan Egan:What's that? Does that make the herd healthier with fewer ticks? Yeah, yep.
Henry Jones:Yep, so yeah, and so that's part of the conundrum in New Hampshire is that we've gotten so used to having quite a few moose really, and to have healthy moose we need to having quite a few moose really, and to have healthy moose we need to have quite a few less moose, and so that means less of a chance to see moose, but when you see a moose it's more likely to be healthy.
Henry Jones:So that's that's the dynamic that that is occurring, and uh, and that's what makes makes us think that winter ticks will not cause moose to disappear, because when there gets to be few enough of them, they'll become more healthy cows, we'll have more calves and population will increase. Now, and I'll say that both maine and vermont are trying to use moose hunting in a way to promote healthy moose. So they did public surveys that indicated that the society valued having healthy moose, and so in part of Maine they are trying and this is north of Moosehead Lake they are trying to bring down the moose density through hunting, to have to lower the tick impact. And then in Vermont, in the Northeast Kingdom, so in management units E1 and E2, that's the northeastern, most part of the state they're taking a similar approach. So yeah, that's just how the tick and hunting situations combine.
Dan Egan:What do you hear from? You know you bring up that society's values Moose. I think as a state we value tourism and we value wildlife for sure. I think as a state we value tourism and we value wildlife for sure. But what's your interaction with the public and what do you hear back from the public about the importance of the moose herd here in the state?
Henry Jones:Yeah, well, there's a lot of concern about the health and a lot of people. You know I have in-depth conversations at least once a month, if not more, about people who are concerned about winter ticks and the health impacts they are causing. And so, generally speaking, we know there is a concern about the health of the moose in the state and about the decline of the moose, and so we are preparing for so. In new hampshire we generally manage game species by 10-year plans to be consistent, and so we are preparing for the 2000,. Our next planning period starts in 2026.
Henry Jones:And so we are preparing, trying to start learning about what do people value the most about moose in New Hampshire? And so it's an interesting dynamic. Right To have, people want to see moose, but they want healthy moose and we're going to ask those questions to really understand which value is higher. But you know, to have healthy moose we actually have to have fewer moose and a way to do that is actually to hunt them. So you know it's an interesting dynamic that's counterintuitive. You know it's an interesting dynamic, that's counterintuitive, and so we need to carefully understand what people value and what our management tools are with these dynamics.
Dan Egan:Fascinating. I mean really it's because you know we always think more is better, right, so a bigger herd is better and healthier and good for us and easier to see and all those sort of things. But the opposite is true. It's so fascinating, henry, to think about these things. I mean, as you know, there's a license plate right, there's a moose plate right. We recently talked about the old man on the mountain and its license plate and its role as an icon. I mean. I think people, when they come up to New Hampshire, these things are part of the reason they come, whether they see. You know you can't see the old man anymore, you might not see a moose, but the idea that you could or you would, I still think, drives a lot of us to be here in New Hampshire. Would you agree?
Henry Jones:still think drives a lot of us to be here in New Hampshire, would you agree? Yeah, you know. I'd agree with that statement that it's just the ability to have that, the potential to see a moose or to be among the mountains and to see the large, open, you know, forested landscapes. Yes, I'd agree, yeah, and I think New Hampshire has an opportunity. Yes, I'd agree, yeah, and I think New Hampshire has an opportunity, you know, with moose and with many species, to say, hey, we really appreciate these, our natural resources, and we still have the opportunity to have them. So you know we should be taking steps now to do that.
Dan Egan:And it's all intertwined. Right mind, right.
Henry Jones:So when you have the forest management and what's happening with that, that, in a sense, is helping the moose population as well as other species. Yeah, you know, it's really sustainable forest management that results into a more balanced and healthy wildlife population, and you know so. Our forests forests, they're human, like we live in a human influenced world right.
Henry Jones:So our forests, you know they're largely the same age because they were all harvested at the same time. They're not like some climax forest that is really diverse in its ages and its its um sizes, and not a young forest and old forest. So we need to think about those things and be like okay, what, what does this forest? So we need to think about those things and be like, okay, what does this forest system want to tend to, and how does that fit in with what a forest landowner wants out of that property and how wildlife interact, and try to push those, try to be measured about them and push them in a way that creates benefits for other parties involved a way that creates benefits for most for other parties involved.
Dan Egan:We recently had uh lindsey on from the hubbard brook uh research forest and uh do you interact with with that group up there on these sort? Of topics oh, we need to get you connected up there to hubbard brook. It's. It's Hoverbrook. It's on your way home from Lancaster. It's great and just talk about the commitment that the state makes, Henry, towards all of this, towards you, towards the research, towards the importance of keeping our wildlife in New Hampshire healthy, and how key government is in all that.
Henry Jones:Yeah, so you know, in New Hampshire the primary agency responsible for conserving moose is the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department, and so the Wildlife Division is actually does not get any state general funds.
Henry Jones:It's all funds from license fees and also from the Pittman-Robertson Act there.
Henry Jones:So there's maybe a little bit of general funds that go in there, and so that's kind of state level support.
Henry Jones:And then I will say, though, that other state level initiatives, like the Best Management Practices for Forestry, the Good Forestry and the Granite State Initiative, those go a long way and that's a collaboration between Fish and Game and UNH, cooperative Extension and private landowners and the private industry saying, hey, here's the forestry practices that are best for our resource and here's what we recommend. So it's efforts like that to promote that, to promote forest management. And I'll also say that there's a lot of, you know, local organizations, local land conservation organizations, that are doing their best to conserve properties, to put conservation easements on properties or to buy properties so they remain undeveloped and and so trying to, and many, some of them are also, you know, managing those first of course for diverse age classes, like the society for protection in new hampshire forest. So there is this culture of of wanting to um, conserve our resources and have new ham, remain scenic and somewhat wild, and that is critical for having wildlife, particularly moose.
Dan Egan:You know, having gone to school here at UNH and working in your chosen field and now becoming the Moose Project Leader in the state of New Hampshire, what do you love about your job?
Henry Jones:It's really the resource. It's really cool to be able to think about moose and to think about this tremendous resource that we have and how it interacts with and how that relates to people and also to the influence of people. You know how have have you know how do our actions influence this animal. So for me, that's the the best part and and really trying to to promote continued opportunity for people to appreciate and engage with the resource in whatever way that may be. You know, like, so, like, so I've been fortunate enough to get to experience moose and to appreciate their here, them being here, and to try to foster that, not just with moose but with wildlife in general. Try to foster that opportunity on so that other people can have that and appreciate that.
Dan Egan:Dude, it's so important, right? I mean we need it. We need that education, we need the passion to keep the public engaged. How about school kids? Is there programs for kids to learn about moose?
Henry Jones:There are some efforts throughout the state. I'm not 100% familiar with them. We have a public affairs division that handles that and there's a really sharp biologist, lindsay Webb, who leads a lot of our public education. So there are wildlife stewards who are folks who have volunteered to give general presentations throughout the state. I believe that Fish and Game also does work with school organizations, but I'm not sure how much with Moose. I know the Conway, the Kennett Middle School this year did a whole segment on moose and at the end they and it was part of Tin Mountain was helping to teach them about it and so at the end they were nice enough to invite me over to to talk with them about moose and it was really a fascinating experience to talk with these upper level middle school you know these late middle school age kids and their questions are actually really refreshing but also, yeah, pretty impactful and insightful.
Dan Egan:Yeah, you know, we have a. We have a curiosity in our youth and people appreciating the environment in which they live and the atmosphere and the state they're living. So it's it's great when we can introduce them and get them talking about these things.
Henry Jones:Yeah, there's a lot of concern there. And then they also just they're not as biased, you know, they're not as influenced as we are. So their questions are kind of like wow.
Dan Egan:Yeah, they haven't run into any moose. Have I run into any? Yeah, have you run into any? Have you run into any? The kids haven't, but have you the people? Yeah, yeah.
Henry Jones:No, I've had some close calls.
Dan Egan:Okay.
Henry Jones:Particularly back when I was doing that research, I'd be traveling at night to UNH up to northern New Hampshire and there was actually one night it was snowing in the Pinkham Notch area. They had a close call, but fortunately I have not hit a moose yet. So we'll see. You know it's not something I take lightly, but yeah, so how about?
Dan Egan:yourself. Have you had? You know I've got again some close calls. The kink is always. You know it used to be a lot worse, I mean back when the time you're talking about the moose population at the height, I would drive through the kink beeping my horn at night, coming back and forth from Conway, just to make some stir because you could count them. You know, on you it's guaranteed you're going to have some sort of encounter with a moose. And like I said, yeah, that one morning when I saw them locking horns it was really special. And here at the Campton Dam, you know, often right there in the little bog, we do see them. So not like we used to, but it's fascinating. Dude, You've got a great job.
Henry Jones:Really cool? Sure, yeah. Are there things that you you know I talk with mo got a great job Really cool? Sure, yeah. Are there things that you you know I talk with Moose a lot and I guess, like I said, I'm somewhat used to talking about Moose, so it's always helpful for me to get feedback. Are there things that, to you, are kind of unclear?
Dan Egan:No, I think you know one that the idea that the smaller population is a healthier population. One that the idea that the smaller population is a healthier population. Again, I think, just as consumers are working in the tourism industry, where are all the moves you know? So you know there's a concern, without thinking that they're actually healthier and that peak in the late 90s and early 2000s wasn't what the state wanted. I think that's an important message. I would almost, you know, from a PR point of view, think that that would be a message Unite to hit on and put out there.
Henry Jones:Yeah, yeah, that's really helpful to understand the people.
Dan Egan:that, based on what people compared to, isn't really what was best for Moose, for moose yeah yeah because we are, all you know, break for moose and and running into moose and and all of a sudden, like for a while, you're like what happened to the moose, and the tick thing is just, I think, a little sort of a little bit of a negative, uh, connotation to it, so it's like I don't can we put tick?
Henry Jones:collars on them.
Dan Egan:You know what I mean. Like people want to protect the moose without knowing why or what Right, so I think any sort of information around that would be amazing.
Henry Jones:Okay, yeah, super, that's really helpful yeah.
Dan Egan:Yeah, fun man. So are you on Newfound Lake.
Henry Jones:No, no, I live right in town there, nice.
Dan Egan:Well, pop up. I'm the new general manager here at Tenney, so come on, if you're driving by, pop up and say hi.
Henry Jones:Okay, yeah. So, dan, your background is in the ski industry, right yeah. And mountaineering, mountaineering.
Dan Egan:Yeah, yeah, I skied the most remote regions of the world in the 80s and the 90s. Yeah, I skied the most remote regions of the world in the 80s and the 90s up in the Arctic several times, all over Russia, all throughout Europe, south America, making movies. And I settled here in New Hampshire in the 90s, ran the Ski 93 Association out of Lincoln and promoted skiing in the region, and I reopened Tenny in 2002 and ran it for a couple of years, and now we're going to make another go. We finally have an owner. I think that is going to commit what we need to make this place work. So yeah.
Dan Egan:Yeah.
Henry Jones:What is the ski industry? I've often wondered. You know, with climate change, that that's impactful on the ski industry. What is that? What is that kind of conversation or or situation, kind of really like you, like you are people dude, it's like we've lost between thanksgiving and christmas.
Dan Egan:We've lost like five snowmaking nights. So that's huge. You know that's an impact that can't be replaced. Just to give you an example in 2002, I started snowmaking in November 1st to open for December 12th and we won't even attempt that. We won't start now until Thanksgiving. So you know, those lost nights are a big thing. The shifting of the later snow pattern makes Christmas kind of a little bit of a lost leader now with rain and things. You know we need Christmas, we need MLK weekend, we need Thanksgiving President's Week. So you know, christmas For small areas like us, it's a big hit. Christmas for small areas like us, it's a big hit. Loon has the systems, but yeah, the cold nights, we need them, we've got to have them. The best skiing is always in the spring, but that's when everybody's golfing, so like we have to retrain the skier, yeah, yeah.
Henry Jones:It's kind of a similar situation to move. You know the impact you find, you know you're losing. Yeah, yeah, yeah it's fascinating dude.
Dan Egan:It's crazy. Well, stop up, man. I'd love to see in person. Henry, I love it. You know, I love everything you're doing for the moose population and and the care you're bringing to it and the education. The moose population and the care you're bringing to it and the education I know myself. The tick thing was like oh, the poor moose, they're getting eaten alive and, like you know, you just have empathy for the moose right and ticks and not knowing that there are different species of ticks and all that so fascinating and how it all works. Thanks for all the work you're doing.
Henry Jones:Sure, yeah Well. The work you're doing? Sure, yeah Well. Thank you, Dan, for your interest in this topic and helping us spread information about Moose. It's greatly appreciated.
Dan Egan:We'll have you back here on the 603 in the future.
Henry Jones:Okay, thanks.
Dan Egan:Hey, thanks for listening to the 603 Podcast with me, dan Egan. Make sure you check out our website at 603podcastcom. Please support the sponsors that make this show possible for more stories, tales and exploration of the Granite State. Thank you.
