603Podcast with Dan Egan
603podcast explores the people, places and things that create the culture of New Hampshire. From the Great North Woods to the peaks and valleys of White Mountains, in and around the Lakes, on and off the Seacoast, throughout the Merrimack the Monadnock Regions, to the Dartmouth-Lake Sunapee area. This podcast educates, motivates and discovers the stories that shape the "Granite State" and its impact on the country and the world.
Hosted by extreme sports pioneer Dan Egan, you’ll hear inspiring in-depth stories, from our featured guests that are the heartbeat of the Granite State through conversationally discussions with New Hampshire’s most notable, need to know folks and characters make New Hampshire truly special place.
603Podcast with Dan Egan
Avalanche Safety with Charlotte MacDonald: Inside the Mount Washington Avalanche Center
Note: This episode was recorded in later spring of 2025.
On this episode of the 603podcast, Charlotte MacDonald talks with host Dan Egan and opens a window into the work of the Mount Washington Avalanche Center, where life-saving forecasts are crafted in pre-dawn darkness and tested daily against the mountain's unpredictable temperament. Rising at 4:30am to analyze weather data, MacDonald collaborates with fellow forecasters to publish early a.m. advisories that backcountry enthusiasts depend on before heading into avalanche terrain.
The White Mountains present unique forecasting challenges with wind-driven snowpacks that transform hourly. "In some ways it's easy to get into our terrain," MacDonald explains, "but it's also challenging." Unlike static snowpacks in other regions, Mount Washington's snow constantly shifts with hurricane-force winds that alternately stabilize and destabilize slopes. This dynamic environment requires forecasters to develop intimate knowledge of how wind, temperature, and precipitation interact across the mountain's complex terrain.
MacDonald's journey from recreational skier with little avalanche knowledge to professional forecaster offers a compelling narrative about the importance of education and mentorship. Today, she's pioneering mentorship programs to help others develop crucial safety skills, emphasizing that education shouldn't end with a basic avalanche course.
The increasing popularity of backcountry skiing has transformed the forecaster's role beyond simply predicting avalanche conditions. As more adventurers explore remote terrain year-round, MacDonald and her colleagues balance forecasting duties with search and rescue responsibilities, community education, and cultivating a culture of information sharing. Her simple request? Send photos and observations from your adventures—they provide vital data that might save lives.
Whether you're an experienced backcountry traveler or simply curious about how avalanche professionals protect mountain communities, this conversation offers rare insight into the elements behind every forecast.
To learn more about the Mount Washington Avalanche Center, visit https://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/ where you can find information on upcoming workshops, news, and the MWAC App for easy access to avalanche information and observations on-the-go.
For more information about the 603podcast visit 603podcast.com
Hi and welcome to the 603 podcast, where we explore the people, places and things that create the culture of New Hampshire. This podcast educates, motivates and discovers the stories that shape the Granite State and its impact on the country and the world. Hi, everybody, I'm extreme sports pioneer Dan Egan and your host of the 603 podcast. I'm excited about this podcast for so many reasons. First, to share the stories. Second, to meet and get to know the people who create, share and develop the activities, businesses and iconic history of our state. But also to hear from you, our listeners, about the stories and ideas you think that we should share on our podcast. You can check out our website at 603podcastcom to learn more about our guests and to share with us your stories and ideas of people who you think we should interview. The 603 Podcast is sponsored by Mad River Coffee Roasters in Campton, new Hampshire. Always my first stop in the White Mountains. Mad River Coffee Roasters in Campton, new Hampshire Always my first stop in the White Mountains. Mad River Coffee Roasters since 2005, brings together community baked goods and meals to the White Mountain Wanderers Located just off Exit 28 on Highway 93, check them out online at madrivercoffeeroasterscom, where you can see the menus and do a bit of shopping. Our 603 podcast is also sponsored by Waterville Valley resort, new Hampshire's family resort and host of the 2024 mogul world cup, with over 265 acres of Alpine terrain, 72 kilometers of Nordic trails, 125 miles of hiking and over 50 miles of mountain biking, and so much more. Visit watervillevalleycom to learn more and plan your next visit.
Dan Egan:Welcome back to the 603 Podcast. Today we're heading out into the rugged and unpredictable terrain of the White Mountains to talk about crucial work of the Mount Washington Avalanche Center. For decades, the Mount Washington Avalanche Center. For decades, the Mount Washington Avalanche Center has been the go-to source for forecasting, education and keeping skiers and climbers, as well as mountaineers, informed and prepared. Our guest today is Charlotte McDonald, snow forecaster and snow ranger at the Mount Washington Avalanche Center. Hey, charlotte, how are you doing today? I'm good. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm doing good. What a winter here in the east.
Charlotte MacDonald:Huh, it's been been a snowy winter. Yeah, it's been great A lot of snow, not a ton of rain, I guess, until the last little bit.
Dan Egan:But we'll take it Snowing right now as we're doing this, so glad to glad to be back kind of in wintry conditions yeah, it's really good and, uh, you know, overall do you think the temperatures have been pretty stable this year, with not a wide range. Has that helped the snowpack at all?
Charlotte MacDonald:yeah, it fluctuates. We've got had periods of cold um, which preserved some sort of instabilities, actually created some instabilities as well, which was interesting on the forecasting side of getting to track that and then now, kind of as we were transitioning to a spring snowpack, there's been a lot of warming which has promoted a lot of settlement in the snow and a lot of stability, and now we're in the funny time of it, kind of yo-yos back, so not not totally there until the spring snowpack.
Dan Egan:And Charlotte, how long have you been with the Mount Washington Avalanche Center?
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah, this is my third winter with MLAC, but my second in a more permanent role, which is exciting.
Dan Egan:You know, I'm just curious. It seems like this year there's just been a lot of snow, and can you, can you tell from year to year you know it's so, so different here in New England what's been your experience?
Charlotte MacDonald:has it been a wide range of snow packs and and over the last several years, yeah, this year it was a really good winter in that for the most part things stayed cold and we just didn't get as much rain. I think that's always been. The tough thing is, you know, snowpack starts to build, it starts to be looking really good and we kind of have one of those big resetting events with rain that just kind of eats away at the snowpack, kind of eats away at the snowpack. And this year we had a rain event in December, but it wasn't quite as significant as the one the year before, and then just continued snowfall. This winter we didn't really have a big single producer of, you know, a 20-inch storm or something, but consistent days. I think February there was only a few days. We didn't, you know, the summit or Hermit Lake snowplots didn't record any snow. So that was really really helpful and productive.
Dan Egan:No doubt. And one thing that I've kind of observed but from a distance, is that there's more and more people, I think and I'd love to know from you in the backcountry in the Mount Washington Valley than ever before. Normally it seemed like back. You know, years ago people kind of waited on snowpack and waited on conditions, but now I think backcountry skiing is sort of on the top of everybody's mind year-round and people up there as early as November. Have you noticed that?
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah, I mean, people get after it the minute there's snow on the ground. They're finding it and you know, for the most part making good decisions. Definitely some people getting caught and carried at different points. But yeah, you know, getting out into big terrain early. Kind of historically, tuckerman Ravine was just a big destination and a really big spring skiing destination and at this point there's been a big sort of bigger shift to maybe avoiding some of the crowds. So finding some of the more remote, far reaches of terrain and you know, skiing those lines, people tracking, you know when they're coming in and, yeah, getting out all over the White Mountains and the presidential range.
Dan Egan:Yeah, I think you bring up a good point right. Like the focus has also changed on where people are going, what they're skiing. There's a little bit more seeking of the adventure and the lines that we haven't skied as much in the past. And what I always find interesting is that really any time of year there can be an avalanche. In the winter, totally.
Charlotte MacDonald:You know, I think kind of a statement that brings true an early season forecast if there's enough snow to ride, there's enough snow to slide.
Charlotte MacDonald:And I think early season forecasts if there's enough snow to ride, there's enough snow to slide. And I think early season conditions sometimes surprise people more because in some ways it's easy, it's all these sort of little pockets, but each little pocket of snow is going to behave really differently. The snow, you know, the gullies aren't fully connected top to bottom or wall to wall, and then late season we can have huge wind slabs but they also will be really compressed since they are so connected and start to bridge. But when they're smaller, you know, maybe by size less dangerous, but you've got really high. Consequence you know early season hazards like rocks or trees that aren't yet buried with snow and it can kind of, you know, you can kind of move through one drift and it's pretty stable, and then the next one's really soft and, you know, cohesionless, and then the next one's maybe a little bit more touchy, and I think that sometimes gets people like that level of spatial variability catches people a little bit by surprise.
Dan Egan:Yeah, I think you're right. Right Because one, it's not a perfect science anyways. And then you have a lot of varying conditions and of course, up in Mount Washington, in Mount Washington Valley, in the Presidential Ridge, in the range, there's a lot of wind and that can change it day to day.
Charlotte MacDonald:Totally and then even like hours in the day. You know there's times we're writing a forecast and you're like, okay, it's starting low, it's having this peak, and then the winds ramp and then it decreases and you're going, you can pick out like three forecasts for this time period. You know you're having to write sort of to that temporal scale and you're having to rate sort of to that temporal scale and the wind. You know we see a lot of wind and sometimes it's so much that it kind of compresses the snow and our problems. You know the wind drives stability in really really high wind events and some of the lower to moderate to strong. It's productive at building wind slabs. But yeah, you got the spatial variability with sort of a winds-driven problem that it's not going to be everywhere and it's going to be a little bit different sort of, you know, throughout terrain.
Dan Egan:Tell us what, as a forecaster, is your job. How do you, what is it that you do, and how do you provide it to the public?
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah. So I guess the most important part of my job is early in the morning and it's getting our avalanche forecast out by 7 am and that process kind of starts the night before thinking about what you saw in the snow, looking at weather forecasts, looking kind of at weather models and kind of building that mental picture. And then you know, go to bed and I wake up, wake up early, usually at my computer somewhere between, you know, just after 4, 30 to 5, and then pulling back into the weather and tracking, you know just after 430 to 5, and then pulling back into the weather and tracking, you know, is that kind of in line with thinking? You know, is the storm system moving faster or slower? What are snow totals? You know what's the direction of the wind and pulling in maybe public observations that came in after I went to bed just to get more information kind of about the current snowpack. And you know, thinking about our changes, increasing the hazard, decreasing the hazard, things, kind of status quo. And then we use sort of a formula, the conceptual model of avalanche hazard, which is just a good system to kind of move through and it's really working through the distribution, size and sensitivity of an avalanche problem. But you have to start with the context and then kind of dive into that and then by 5 45 I've essentially come up with my forecast.
Charlotte MacDonald:And then we have a forecaster call, which is really helpful where where you'll speak with one or a team of three so sometimes all three of us are on or it's just two and we each go around sort of presenting our individual forecast for the day and then we look at where we have alignment, maybe where there's a little bit, maybe where we don't agree, kind of talk about our uncertainty and come up with our hazard as a group. And then who's ever writing that? Hopefully it hasn't been too lengthy of a talk, so they've got plenty of time. So they get about 30 minutes to write the avalanche forecast and then a really quick round of edits and then that gets posted for 7 am. Really quick round of edits, and then that gets posted for 7 am and then the day shifts to going out and you know, checking where we write and ground truthing our forecast. So kind of transition to going to get out into the snowpack.
Charlotte MacDonald:Usually we're kind of you know, we've talked about what's our uncertainty, so I kind of know what I maybe am thinking I don't know and want to go look at, so picking areas that are going to be representative to show that which is typically we're going to be. You know, where do we think the avalanche problem is going to be the biggest? And going there and, yeah, checking it out, and sometimes we've got great visibility, which is awesome because we can kind of do a big look, you know, outside and then kind of into the snow. More often than not we don't have great visibility. There's active loading, so trying to move through the terrain and then, you know, get into the snow if that makes sense, and put together kind of, you know, checking our accuracy and that kind of wraps in the afternoon. We try to be good about it but submitting a professional observation, which that's helpful to our team but also the public. You know, if I'm personally skiing, I usually like to get out the door pretty early.
Charlotte MacDonald:So it might be, you know, I'm making my plan and thinking where I'm going the night before, um, so having those observations is really helpful for um, for sort of tour planning or you know, um, where, where do I want to go? Um, at least in that sort of brain I get to think about where's the snow and the skiing gonna be good, um, but you know, get that all together and, yeah, look at weather again and go to bed and do it all the next day. So yeah, we get into a pretty good routine in that way throughout the winter in different places all the time. But yeah, that's a pretty average day for our forecasting team.
Dan Egan:So nice early morning and then a big day out on the mountain. Of course, we're talking with Charlotte McDonald. She's a forecaster and a snow ranger at the Mount Washington Avalanche Center and we're talking about avalanches in the Mount Washington Valley there and I'm wondering, Charlotte, as I'm listening to your day, are you focusing in on high traffic areas and how does that come into your decisionmaking as far as where you see the hazards and choosing on where to go physically and looking? That's a great question.
Charlotte MacDonald:So a bit of it depends, but our weather patterns end up being pretty typical. They're definitely outlier storms, but they'll usually come in light winds, maybe sort of sometimes out of the south, and pretty much most storms like 9 out of 10, the winds are going to ramp and switch to west or northwest. So a lot of our OBS do end up being in our east-facing ravines, just because that's typically where the avalanche problem's been built to be the largest, typically where the avalanche problem's been built to be the largest, and those also coincide with some of our high traffic areas. If I know a lot of people are going to be in a space. Sometimes, if I have confidence someone's going to submit an observation, I might choose to go elsewhere, you know, maybe go to like Gulf of Slides instead of tux or huntington um, but that's also sometimes data that's really helpful and valuable um. So I think we're just always, you know, chatting through what. You know, what are our data gaps, um, and prioritizing what information we need.
Charlotte MacDonald:And it's not perfect um, you know. I know in some ways it's easy to get into our terrain but it's also challenging. It's hard to string together days where you're kind of in multiple aspects or, you know, getting into multiple elevation and if we're able to kind of climb up high through things usually is meaning that you know we're kind of in high pressure, good visibility, so we don't have raging winds on ridge lines that can kind of let you move through the alpine and that typically coincides with the area. We have high confidence in the snowpack. So yeah, I think that's always a challenging part of our terrain. But you know, we do the best we have with the information and yeah, I usually kind of write to that. But days where there's sort of multiple systems passing through and the snow is continually loading, we might have a little bit less clarity, just because it's not as easy to get into terrain to confirm you know exactly what's been happening.
Dan Egan:So are you on top of Mount Washington multiple times a week, four or five times a week?
Charlotte MacDonald:Not always going up to the summit, usually off of winter winds, we kind of have confidence that area is scoured. You know, the snow fields on the summit go on definitely a little more sheltered, so there'll be snow there. But a lot of our time is spent in our middle elevation terrain, which is about 3,000, kind of to 5,000 feet and, you know, primarily in the ravine level. But yeah, the snow surfaces up in the alpine can be pretty scoured. We had a lot of low-density snow this year which made for some good skiing. But um, that that water, um, higher density snow typically sticks and rocks better. Uh, so a lot of the alpine. Yeah, the rock pile kind of rained through this year, um, or a lot of rock hopping if you were kind of trying to connect multiple ravines in a day on a typical day.
Dan Egan:How many snow pits might you dig?
Charlotte MacDonald:so there's sometimes a good reason to like dig into the snow. I do a lot more hasty pits and hand shears and I think that's come from having done a lot of formalized pits of you know just feeling what that snow is and also just getting to have been in the snowpack a lot and kind of knowing the weather events. Do we have concerns deeper in the snowpack or is it more of a surface problem? And, um, you know sort of moving through and you know kind of get sort of the feel for it and there are different areas where you know it totally makes sense to pull out a shovel, um, and trying to prioritize, you know some speed and getting as much information as possible, um, and then kind of trying to see are we finding repeatable results? We did have a period this past winter where we had a persistent slag problem on our avalanche forecast and that was cool.
Charlotte MacDonald:Got to spend a lot of time like digging deep into the snow, tracking that and you know seeing the development of facets, tracking that and you know seeing the development of facets and it wasn't as tricky because it wasn't a super widespread layer.
Charlotte MacDonald:It was more patchy. From a December rainstorm there was this kind of ice crust, but at that point our terrain was pretty limited in some places so those layers didn't connect across terrain very well. So it was kind of these patches and you could find parts of it, and the south cenofia, over in gulf of slides, was kind of a repeat slider on that layer, but across the board wasn't as productive and you know, we could find, find that, find some sensitivity, um, but in a lot of places it just became really deeply buried and then kind of past the point of a sphere of you know, a skier influencing it, and then well past the point of you know, could a skier trigger a surface problem that could step down that? Um, and eventually it was so deep that, um, yeah, wasn't, wasn't a player anymore, um, so it was's variable.
Charlotte MacDonald:Some days it makes sense, as I said, for a full pit, um, but more often than not, um, it's a little bit more um, sort of informal, informal tasks, um, and then if I want to document something really well, I think that's when I pull my shovel out.
Dan Egan:For those out there who are unsure what a hasty pit is. Tell us what it is.
Charlotte MacDonald:I usually have an idea of what my kind of interface of concern, layer of concern in the snow is going to be, even before I go out and then essentially looking to find it and see what's the new snow doing with the old snow surface and, depending on how deep that is, if it's kind of you know, maybe just a foot, it's um kind of clearing, clearing that space, um, and you know you can be in and out, you know I'll pull my shovel out there, but that might be done in about um 10 minutes, where a full science pit is gonna have a really really clean walls, has more standard dimensions and is going to be doing more tests than that. But I'm usually just looking like does this have the ability to propagate? So just setting up quick ECTs.
Dan Egan:You're not originally from the 603, and so what was your journey into the avalanche world?
Charlotte MacDonald:603. And so what was your journey into the avalanche world? Yeah, um, my journey into the avalanche world really started as a recreational skier. Um, I was living in vermont at the time, um, coaching college field hockey and, um, that's when I got into backcountry skiing, got my first sort of touring setup and, you know, started hearing about this, you know, mount washington and tuckerman ravine and, I think, early photos. I was like that is there's no way this is in the east coast, like that looks it. You know that doesn't look like skiing, definitely doesn't look like vermont um skiing. And, uh, you know, like a lot of people, I think you kind of have the okay, I want to go do that.
Charlotte MacDonald:Um, and then, with you know, I'm a bit of a planner, so trying to understand, um, where you ski, what it's going to be like, um, kind of you know everyone's like well, you got to read the Mount Washington avalanche center forecast, um, and then, um, yeah, my, my knowledge of this was probably as low as it could get like again, kind of in that demographic of like there's avalanches in the east Coast and I was looking at the forecast actually kind of ended up on the accident page and something that's standard is. It talks about the level of avalanche education of a group that's involved in an avalanche incident. And my brain was immediately like, oh you know. And he just kind of imagined like, if that's me, mine's going to say zero. Immediately like, oh you know. He just kind of imagined like, if that's me, mine's going to say zero.
Charlotte MacDonald:Um, so I took a course um over in New Hampshire and, um, man, I was like so intimidated by all this information that like I didn't know and there's just a sort of um and thinking like, oh, that looks like it would ski great. And being told, you know, that's where the avalanche problem is. And just like, okay, I clearly don't get this. And became really fascinated with understanding. And yeah, that's when I became a big daily reader of the forecast and looking at weather, looking at observations, you know, being in Vermont trying to find good windows to go into New Hampshire to maybe ski something, windows to go into New Hampshire to maybe ski something. And then at some point it just switched to being really getting a lot of having like great days where we maybe didn't ski something and we're, you know, digging in the snow, and just started to learn something and understand it a bit more and at some point I decided I really wanted to do this more. And actually I don't quite know where that decision made, like what pushed me to make that.
Charlotte MacDonald:But I was looking at some snow science programs and I reached out to Jeff, who's the director of the Avalanche Center, over the summer over the summer this was in the fall and you know had a conversation with him and said, you know, really want to do something like take anything like an internship or volunteer or if you have a job, great. And he was great to give me time. But kind of laughed and said, yeah, a lot of people want to work here and you know we get people a lot of these kind of emails of wanting to be involved and reach out. So you know we get people a lot of these kind of emails of wanting to be involved and reach out. So you know, maybe follow back up, back up in the winter.
Charlotte MacDonald:And then I moved to New Hampshire, had an apartment in North Conway and kind of just had the mindset I'm going to figure this out and kind of reached back to Jeff.
Charlotte MacDonald:They were really busy at MLAC so I started, you know, shadowing some avalanche courses to kind of get more experience on the education side.
Charlotte MacDonald:I was submitting observations and you know, just trying to spend as much time in the snow and that kind of helped again to get me noticed by.
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah, I remember getting asked to be on my first forecast call, I think about like two minutes before they did it, because I had been out in snow somewhere where the team hadn't, and you know, kind of talked through what I saw and then kind of what my hazard was for the day. And, as I'm quickly like looking at weather, because I was, you know, not prepared for that moment but, um, and they had an opportunity to do an emergency hire, so I was able to work, um formally for the avalanche center for the sort of that 60 day period and, um, that paperwork didn't doesn't necessarily go through quickly, um, so I started volunteering kind of a month as I was waiting for that um to start. So, yeah, I worked with them this was the 2023, like the month of February. Then for March and April I was sort of in the space as an emergency hire and then volunteered again for the month of May.
Dan Egan:You're a bit of a product of the Avalanche Center. You're a consumer of a product of the Avalanche Center. You're a consumer of the information and I'm wondering, in those early days when you were reading the forecast and wondering yourself and choosing your daily routes, what did you like about the forecast and what did you wish they had more of?
Charlotte MacDonald:I really liked the forecast. It's simple, easy, synthesizable language, especially in the more detail of the development of a problem. Or maybe you know the sort of like why you know hazards low. I was coming up with reasons why I thought you know it happens. But when there's a bit of that further discussion a little bit deeper into their thinking helped me learn a lot. And then, because I remember seeing seeing things that snow that I didn't understand, and then asking friends and they didn't understand, like yeah, come on, let's go skiing, just wanting, wanting to have that, and I think that's something I actually try to connect to.
Charlotte MacDonald:I think it makes me a better forecaster, is remembering kind of my journey here and you know, as I've learned to connect these dots, so sometimes I'll include that in a forecast. Also, I might go into a bit more detail into our, our professional observations to kind of to wrap that up. And then something that's new this year is we're doing snowpack, weekly snowpack summaries, and I think maybe this is what I really wanted and it's not necessarily part of the forecasting product but it's a bit of a reflection of the past week of weather and snow and hazards and a bit more detail of what went into that and those have been fun to write. But yeah, I guess I think that's what I really maybe wanted being past me, wanted to understand better. So a little bit outside the scope of what fits in a forecast, but that's been a cool avenue that we can provide a little bit more education on.
Dan Egan:Yeah, I like that. And now we're on the forecasting side and posting and out there hunting around and looking at the snow on a daily basis. What is it that you want to say to the recreational backcountry skier? What do you wish they knew more of and what do you wish they did more in general for safety?
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah Well, maybe selfishly, I wish more people put in observations observations even if it's just pictures, like I want to see what you're seeing and know kind of what you're finding. Um and man, pertinent negatives are super helpful, like didn't find an avalanche problem here, like great, I want to know that um what?
Dan Egan:what makes a good observation for you useful?
Charlotte MacDonald:um, so some of the best ones can be simple, honestly, just pictures of like. I went into the ravine for Huntington and, just, you know, took pictures of each gully and I can kind of see the amount of snow. That's super helpful, because if I'm going somewhere I'm like what's the last photo? And if it's my, you know, I'm just kind of what did it look like? So am I noticing big changes? That's super, super helpful. You know, if you're like what's the snow surface? Um, you know, I I ask when I kind of see skiers out and about and man, I can get a lot of like, even if they just just see like, because everyone's like, oh, I don't know that much. I mean, no, no, it's fine, you know, it's. You know, and they can kind of describe what it turns like or what the snow was like when they're boot packing. Um, and I think that comes from I've spent a ton of time, um in the last couple years in this terrain, so can do a lot with a little bit of information there. Um, and you know, if you dig a snow pit or hand shears, like kind of pointing out on a bigger photo where they were, and then you can show the little photo, um, but I get it's work, um, there's times where I'm like oh man, uh, about, uh, having to put them in at the end of the long day, um, but they're definitely, definitely appreciated. Um, but for the recreational skier, um, I think it's awesome.
Charlotte MacDonald:So many people are taking avalanche courses, um, which is really really great to see. But it's tough because I think that's where it stops. You know, students take a level one and, you know, depending on their knowledge going in, it's kind of, you know, like, what was the learning outcome? And our, you know there can be windows where it's super, super dynamic and there's so much loading it's really not safe to get into terrain and then other times it might be like harder as a brick and not safe for a different reason. But I'd love to see more people continue to take courses.
Charlotte MacDonald:You know, I think there's a big emphasis on that in the professional world of continuing education. I wish there was more of that push in the rec world, um, our terrain specifically is really more ski mountaineering terrain than just, you know, skiing an avalanche train. I'd love to see more people um round out, um, some of those technical skills and, you know, just self-arrest techniques, and I mean actually really ideally good cramp awning so you're not even relying on the self-resting technique. But if you do slip, it's good to know that you have it. And yeah, I think that's what, just kind of more of that education and skill and skill and time and building up to some objectives. And some days aren't the day, and you know it's really rewarding to pull it together. And yeah, I've backed off of lines and then come back and you know skied them in good conditions and there's some that I haven't gotten to yet but you know we'll get there at some point.
Charlotte MacDonald:And yeah, just to not put that rush, and you know, maybe if you like move really fast, like skin fast up to Hermit Lake or something, but if you're kind of, once you're getting into terrain, you know slow down, look around a bit and just kind of build in those check-in points to you know, does it make sense to keep going? Because you know when it's really firm it can be great cramponing. You can get you know up to the top pretty quickly. But all of a sudden you're like, oh wow, I've got terrible skiing down this. You know steep gully and it could have been great to take that moment beforehand of as you're climbing, of. You know what's the ski quality Like? Is this going to soften? Because once we're up there, we, you know, are maybe committed, but there's also like you can down climb or there's so many hiking trails that you can take as other options if the snowpack isn't the safest, maybe to descend on a really firm day.
Dan Egan:Great advice here from Charlotte McDonald snow ranger up at the Mount Washington Avalanche Center and I love what you're telling. I mean, one, sharing of information is helpful and making those photos available, and then photos can be compared to past photos. You can see change in snowpack and change in what the wind may have done, and I love that. That's super helpful and that we can do more of that and that helps the professionals. And two, I just love what you're talking about. You know about the touch and the professionals. And two, I just love, uh, what you're talking about. You know about the touch and the feel and the experience of being in the snow, and sharing that is so simple, uh and helpful, so super interesting to me that that, uh, that's where you went with that and I'm so grateful that that's great information.
Dan Egan:I don't think people really get to hear enough, particularly from professionals, because usually a lot of times the pros are talking about, you know, things we don't understand, the science of snow and breaking it down into the simplest bites I've always found better and helpful. You know, as you look out at the community of backcountry skiers and of course, there's so much happening now with equipment and awareness and people coming up. What's the best way you find for people you know, yeah, they should go to your website and yes, they should read the snow forecast, but what do you find in particularly the Mount Washington Valley, as the resources that can also be utilized?
Charlotte MacDonald:So we've got great weather forecasts as well. You know, starting there on the weather side, of what you get from the Mount Washington Observatory, they have a higher summits forecast. Nws has sort of different spot forecasts for around the range. You know what elevation are you going to be in. You know really trying to understand, understand the weather there. And you know the next thing is finding good partners and that's challenging, kind of like wherever you are.
Charlotte MacDonald:And as a skier and I think that's something that I try to be aware of, now I'm a bit more connected in this area and it's sort of easier to pull, but I do remember it being really challenging to find people that I trusted, that knew more, that were willing to travel similar speeds, communicate. There are a lot of pieces that go into it and you know, maybe being good friends might not mean that you're super compatible. You know backcountry partners and you know also like risk tolerance and you know that's going to be a little bit different for everybody and who's just. You know there's no kind of right and wrong with that, but it is tough when you're really mismatched in one of those areas and I think you know that's something I've, at sort of the Avalanche Center have tried to create a bit more emphasis on mentorship and sort of the outreach that we can do and then hoping that trickles out and man, man, like sometimes I think I mentioned mentorship but everyone like panics a little, um, because it's a big word and it feels like a big responsibility, um, but you know you can break it down and make it, um, really tangible. You know someone's like I'm prepping for a pro one, you know if that's kind of there's a timeline, right. You know, for someone prepping to that course, it's not this like permanent responsibility to help someone. Or you know if someone's a really good skier, go in the resort with them and ask them to help you with hop turns or something. And you know, snowboarder kind of working on different skills.
Charlotte MacDonald:And there's been sort of interesting research on the mentorship side. I always kind of felt it was on like the mentees, like their responsibility to seek that out. But kind of in the snow and avalanche world the most successful mentorship relationships have sort of seemed to be proven to really be initiated by the mentor. And you know, thinking about and talking about the snow, I do that all winter so I try to pull in some partners and this winter I've created kind of a field partner observation partnership program and I've got kind of sort of three people that have been involved in that and, you know, trying to formalize that of how you know them be more regular partners For me. I've kind of been working and getting professional experience being a forecaster's field partner, honing professional observation skills.
Charlotte MacDonald:As you know, these are some aspiring professionals and you know I just hope that kind of trickles down and you know I would love to see that kind of more on the rec side of you know, maybe I know a little bit more than my friends. So are we going to pick a really big objective for the day? Know, maybe I know a little bit more than my friends, so, um, are we going to pick a really big objective for the day? Like, maybe not, um, that might not be the skill set for the group Um, but you know, putting them in a position to learn. And, um, if you're always breaking trail, um, you know, maybe have someone else go in front of you to kind of work on setting a skin track or, you know, skin through deep snow, which, um, and kind of build those skills and maybe you go a little less far, um, don't get as much done. Um, but your group's going to be better, kind of, in sort of the longterm, um, if we take that approach.
Charlotte MacDonald:Um, and yeah, you can't do it every day. Sometimes it's great skiing, so you want to go out with the dial group, like I do it, um, but you know, when we can, I think, just doing a little bit to, you know, increase everyone's, everyone's knowledge and skill, um, and you know, you can always find an objective that fits the group of the day. Um, I think, being flexible, maybe, personally, I wanted to, um, you know, do something else, but, um, with the group, I might, you know, scale back. You know, like, maybe we're not skiing something from the top, uh, because it's someone's first time, so we're gonna, you know, ski something a little bit lower angle and, um, kind of kind of build to that I love what you're saying, but particularly about choosing your partner, may not be, uh, your best buddy, right?
Dan Egan:it may be more important to choose a partner, as you said, that travels at the same speed or is interested in doing the same things, and I think often that's overlooked, you know, because we get comfortable with our peer group or our friend group. They say about you know, guiding is. You know it's hardest to guide friends and family, right, because you know you don't want to insult somebody or you don't want to hurt somebody's feelings so you might held back. And I think this idea of mentoring and what you're talking about, reaching out, is all about prevention. You know it doesn't always have to be about rescue, right? The more prevention we do, hopefully, the less rescues we do. I applaud you on that, that initiative because there's not enough professionals taking that tack that, hey, I can be a mentor, I'm going to reach out and this is preventive as well as educational and it's going to help, hopefully, keep people safe. I love what you're doing there. That's great.
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah, I mean, it's rewarding for me too, I think the more you teach it, the more you reinforce your knowledge of something, and so, yeah, it's beneficial on both sides as well.
Dan Egan:Of course we all hear all winter long and we know some of us even more personally tragic stories up here in the whites, and have you been involved with some rescues recently?
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah, we've had a few this winter. I think one that sticks out was a burial of a solo skier back in February and that was a positive outcome, which I'm really glad for. That there's, you know, for you know, everyone involved with that um, as well as kind of the wider community, um, sort of from our um incident sort of report on that accident, um, and yeah, that was unique. I guess for me that was my first time being in a situation, you know, talking to someone, I had written the forecast that day and you know, man, like you're going through, like your mindset when you wrote it of, you know, because there's weight with that, because that can impact decision-making and ultimately it's, you know, I could, we could totally blow it.
Charlotte MacDonald:It's on the, you know, the individual putting themselves into a terrain to make assessments. Things can change. Weather doesn't always pan out as forecasted. That was one that stood out this year. Have you written your forecast about that specific terrain? Not that specific terrain, but that was within the aspects, that of the problem that was listed.
Charlotte MacDonald:So, um, I guess I wouldn't say I was surprised by the result, but, um, then, you know, you're you think through, like the wording, or, you know, did I convey this well? Um, and, you know, could I have done better? Um, sort of sort of things like that. Um, you know, could I have done better? Sort of things like that. You know, at the end of the day I do feel good about the forecast. I think it was accurate to the conditions, but it was also dynamic conditions that were changing through the day. But, yeah, you know, there's totally that reflection of you know, oh, could I have done more? And my bottom line, I wrote my bottom line quickly. It was a good one.
Charlotte MacDonald:But you know, I was like, oh, should I have spent a little bit more time? Because I just remembered, like, feeling the pressure of, oh, my gosh, I've got to get this out for edits, like it's all seven, and you know, kind of have to wrap up the writing process. And yeah, you know, should I have allocated my time differently? You know, I don't think that would have changed the outcome of the day by any means, but you know, it's a, I think, a unique point that we yeah, so for the Avalanche Center and the Forest Service, our team is the lead agency in charge of search and rescue for the Cutler River drainage.
Charlotte MacDonald:Charge of search and rescue for the Cutler River drainage kind of takes over for fishing game for that area from December 1st to June 1st and that's a really high trafficked area. We've got sort of the winter lion's head and summer lion's head, you know, trails going to the summit. We've got Huntington and Tuckerman Ravine kind of down from the road part of the summit cone there and Tuckerman Ravine kind of down from the road part of the summit cone there and that is a lot of steep technical terrain and then compounded, you know it's not huge by size but has a lot of people by use.
Dan Egan:I find snow fascinating, and I'm guessing that you do too, and one thing I find about snow is that it's such an interesting substance and it creates such a fascinating surface and the fact that the snow changes and is so durable, and really, you know, it's just so amazing to me, the surface of snow, and I wonder if you've thought about that and what is it that draws you to the snow and why do you like to play in it.
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah, I think you captured it really nicely. It's this sort of ephemeral thing that's constantly changing and it's dynamic, it moves. You know it can be really beautiful looking at individual, you know, and um, and then it's ephemeral, like it doesn't last. You know it starts as rock, the snow comes in, fills in and then at some point it melts out and goes away again. Um, and you know it's fun, it's cool to dig into. I kind of look at the snow surfaces. It's fun to. You know, move around.
Dan Egan:You know climate if it's really firm, ski it when it's good and um, Recently been skiing in the high Alpine up in the glacier, and I love glacier snow because the temperature it's like you know, the snow is being refrigerated all the time by the glacier and and it's getting people to experience that is fascinating, right when they understand that like, wow, this is the same temperature from the bottom up and there's fewer layers and it really it feels so different. Um, it's not blower pow, it's a little more dense, but but it's, it's a consistent snow. Have you you experienced that?
Charlotte MacDonald:Yeah, a little bit, and sometimes I mean our snowpack's not a glacier. There's sometimes moments it kind of feels more glacial as it consolidates and things. But yeah, no, it's cool to see and it's sort of I don't know the more time you spend on snow, just like you know, skinning on it or even skiing on it, you're able to get a lot of information based on how that surface feels and that consolidated snowpack, like you don't really feel much underfoot, versus when there's different layers, that is, you know, soft or maybe there's some collapsing or cracking. So, yeah, the kind of different haptic feels you get from snow.
Dan Egan:You know, talk a little bit, Charlotte, about the dynamics of the Mount Washington Avalanche Center. You guys must be really proud of the work you do and what's it like being part of that team? It's really rewarding.
Charlotte MacDonald:You know our team. You know our core team is encompassing of Jeff and Pat. We're a team of three right now but that extends out and I'll kind of answer this part. You know we take a lot of pride in you know being as accurate as we can with the forecast, kind of own it. When we're a little off, you know maybe, maybe it's weather or you know different things, and then we get a One like there kind of needs to be readers and use to have you know justify our need for being there. And clearly we have a ton of backcountry use in the area.
Charlotte MacDonald:And then being also in charge of rescue, we have a lot of support the AMC caretaker and Harvard Mountain Club. You know Harvard cabin caretaker. They do a ton of in support of our program and that is Cooper, emily and Jimmy. Right now I mean they provide snow ops but they're also rescue support, they're training with us. We also have a group of volunteers which is the Mount Washington Volunteer Ski Patrol, which is the Mount Washington Volunteer Ski Patrol and this group of volunteers is great because they in the spring months are out with us on sort of busy spring weekends, you know, messaging about hazards, supporting on rescues and, you know, and participating in trainings to kind of increase their skill set, you know, with the technical side, with anchors and lowers, but also have been broadening into sort of more snowpack observations as well. So it's cool to see our group of volunteers kind of grow there.
Charlotte MacDonald:And you know, interacting with the community is super valuable. You know, if someone submitted an observation, then I know who they are, try to thank them in person. You know, kind of ask what they're finding and you know, sometimes you know someone the other day was finding snow that looked like Dippin' Dots. I was like I have no idea what this is. I was like, oh, this is grapple and kind of looks like this, behaves like this. And you know it's fun to have those interactions where maybe someone learns a little something too. And so, yeah, it's an important job. I definitely feel really proud of our team, really grateful to be a part of it, and kind of always want to be continually, you know, working kind of as hard as we can and acknowledging there's always going to be continually working as hard as we can and acknowledging there's always going to be data gaps, but doing our best to close those as we can.
Dan Egan:Charlotte, I'm wondering is it easy to spot you guys up there? Do you wear a uniform? Are you in just your regular ski clothing? And how much public facing is there other than bumping into you guys, the avalanche forecasters on the hill? Do you do regular appearances or anything like that, or is it just you're just out there finding people talking to whoever you bump into?
Charlotte MacDonald:A bit of all of the above. We do have, you know, our uniform. It doesn't stand out a ton uh. We've got black pants and a green jacket with a patch. Um, I guess we have the radio harness, uh, which probably makes that's probably like the easiest thing to spot from afar.
Charlotte MacDonald:And then we do um different talks we partnered with ledge, um and our avalanche center foundation, um sort of sponsor, some different talks throughout the winter, kind of a series there, kind of on initiatives. We have a every year we do an Eastern Stone Avalanche workshop, ESAW, that our staff's, you know, either presenting or just kind of around to answer questions and we do our best to be visible. You know there are only so many hours of the day we're trying to get information, so some days can maybe have can talk more than others. But yeah, we try to be as available as we can. Our email is info, snow or snow at Mount Washington Avalanche Center, and that goes to all of everyone on our team. You can also find that on our website and people do reach out and ask questions at different points, so that can maybe be another good way to get in touch with our team Any forecast into how long we're going to be skiing into the spring?
Charlotte MacDonald:Oh man, so it's funny. I used to be a big, like long-range weather person. Maybe that was from, you know, being far away and trying to coordinate like days off, but working in the snow every day like I know I'm going to be here, so I don't always look super far ahead. Right now the outlook's cold, so that's good. In ravines the snowpack's steep, so that's definitely going to take a while to melt out. And man, I mean people are like we're skiing like Memorial Day weekend, like hiking. You know there's not as many turns as you have right now, but yeah, people will find a little bit of snow that hangs on. So I don't have a date for it. The.
Dan Egan:Mount Washington Valley in general is a pretty special place for anybody out there who hasn't really experienced it. How do you describe the Mount Washington Valley and what inspires you by being part of that community? Yeah, the community is great.
Charlotte MacDonald:I think what's really special is it's small but has a huge reach and it's kind of a funny parallel between the two. Um, but uh, you know we've got, um some incredible educators and local professional and guides, um, that are, you know, in great support and we've got some really talented recreational skiers that are really really pushing the boundaries and getting into really cool technical terrain. Um, and you know skiing, you know really cool lines and, um, you know it should get kind of builds excitement. I think it's sometimes tough because our weather changes so much. So, you know, you have awesome skiing on wednesday and friday is gonna be like a whole different snowpack.
Charlotte MacDonald:So, just a little, it always will people to kind of, you know it's like build the snow but realize that conditions might be, might be changing, it might not be the same as what you see, but ultimately that's, you know, the responsibility of each person putting themselves into terrain and so there's a lot of support putting themselves into terrain and there's a lot of support. You know I've got a lot of friends and it's always fun to kind of see what they're up, to, hear what they're finding. I definitely reach out. I'm like, hey, I saw you were over here. What did you find? What was it like? You know, just trying to always connect the dots of what's happening in the snow. But there's a lot of support which has been really, really rewarding. It's always rewarding, but lately just the community reaching out and it has been really valuable to our team.
Dan Egan:Well, that's great, Charlotte. I mean I really thank you for everything that you do for the community, for the larger community as a whole, to keep people safe, for committing so much of your time and effort into other people's safety. It's really quite something. Thanks for hanging out with us here on the 603 and keep up the good work, Thanks.
