Living Left

Midlife Divorce and Reinvention

• Ann-Marie Burton, Tanya Garcia • Season 2 • Episode 6

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0:00 | 57:09

We use Valentine’s Day as a doorway into a frank, funny, and tender look at intentional divorce, gray divorce myths, and designing a life that fits. We reframe a 25-year marriage as a success, talk through legal basics, and share the emotional tools that made the transition kinder.

• Choosing intentional separation and still believing in love
• Difference between separation agreements and divorce filings
• Why the 20-year mark matters for spousal support
• Covid’s role in midlife identity shifts and gray divorce
• Therapy as a safe room for ending well
• Emotional safety, vulnerability, and depth over “fine”
• Redefining home: renting, downsizing, flexibility
• Honest talks with kids about change and stability
• Balancing independence with a desire to be cared for
• Healing time, boundaries, and support circles


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Because what’s left isn’t less. It’s everything.

Valentine’s Day And Family Plans

SPEAKER_01

Happy Valentine's Day, Tanya. Happy Valentine's Day, Anne Marie. Actually, I was just looking. I actually have Valentine's treats.

unknown

Oh.

SPEAKER_01

These are for the kids.

SPEAKER_00

I know. I have done none of them.

SPEAKER_01

Well, actually, Erica gave them to me, but I'm gonna pay them forward for my children.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, well, I'm wearing a red sweater. You are! I didn't even theme it up. I do not have any Valentine's Day treats. People can't see it anyway. I was actually just thinking about it. I was like, everyone's coming home because of reading week is falls around like in family day and Valentine's Day is all the same weekend. And I thought, have I planned anything? Do I have any hearts to stick on people's doors? Or I have nothing. I don't.

SPEAKER_01

So I've I'm going to see Anne Juliet with my kids. That's her Valentine's gift. That's a great plan. You know what? I've just been meaning to do it. So I used it as a happy Valentine's to your mom.

SPEAKER_00

Let's do it on family day. Actually, I do have a solution. And um, one of my kids just sent me their team has a really great Lululemon connection, so they get 50% off. And so I said, okay, everyone can pick something for Valentine's. So I'm getting a new backpack for my travels this spring. Can you pick me something up?

SPEAKER_01

Like, I'm serious. We're talking about this offline. Okay. Okay, yes. I'm going with you. I should I think it should be like a nice little gift for our travels that are happening. We get our own match. We get our I have a backpack, so we don't need that one. I have it already. Damn it. I paid full price.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm gonna pay 50%.

SPEAKER_01

It's a good backpack. It is a good pack. Okay.

Setting Up The Real Topic

SPEAKER_00

Uh so anyway, so how so there you go. Valentine's Day, what does it mean? It doesn't really mean I don't know. It's it's a day of love. It's a day of but we we thought we might talk a little bit about it because we have been talking a lot about the women in our life and our friends in our life. Yeah, we're talking about let's talk about Galantine's Day or let's talk about Valentine's Day, or do we completely left turn this and say forget Valentine's Day? Let's have an anti-Valentine's Day. Yes, and maybe we should actually talk about the topic that we've been touching on over how many episodes?

SPEAKER_01

Since the beginning, Amory. Yes. When we talk about left turns and one of a core left turn of mine, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, what was your biggest left turn in the last five years? Hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Shall we say divorce? And it's funny that it's anti-Valentine's Day because I still believe in love.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um, clearly. But and it might not be anti, it just means like you chose yourself.

The Left Turn: Intentional Divorce

SPEAKER_01

You chose a different path. I did choose myself, and it is a different path. And I think it's important to have the conversation. We've been thinking about how are we going to do this. And I was just like, let's just talk. Like, again, if we're sticking to left turns, that was a substantial left turn that that I decided to take. Again, divorce or separation often happens either you're the one who who pulls the trigger or someone does it. And I don't mean to to be flippant about it. It it is not easy either way. Um, but in my case, it was a very intentional decision and not, and for those women out there who are listening, and I have a lot of people um in my circle who are who have gone before me or since I've been divorced, um, when it is intentional, it's not an overnight thing. Um, it takes a lot of consideration, and you are often moving your entire family through the process, um, including your ex-husband in a lot of cases. Someone needs to carry the weight um of it. So I'm actually just on the other end of it. I feel like now I'm finally what so when did that happen? 2022? No, I think the separation.

SPEAKER_00

No, it was earlier than that.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think so. Like the official date.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you would know more than me. So I know.

SPEAKER_01

So you know how yeah, but I'm so terrible with that. So here's what's ending. It was like 20, 25 minutes ago in my head.

SPEAKER_00

But I believe it was an it the interesting connection between you and I, which we did not know. We both actually got married on the exact same day. True. Did not know each other. So June 16th, 2001. So 2001 was your 20th, because it was our 20th as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So it would have been 22.

SPEAKER_00

It was 22. It absolutely was because at 20 year is important for consideration.

SPEAKER_01

I tell everyone how many years we've been married. 18. You might want to hold on a couple years.

SPEAKER_00

Why is it an important so um like it's a legal important? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So here's the thing I am going to say things. I am not a lawyer. We were just talking. We're actually going to bring on a guest because there is the lawyer I used, who was a client of ours, actually, like back in the day. She is amazing. And I refer everyone I talk to, even if you're getting a moderator, to have at least the very least a conversation with her. Um, so we're gonna have her on, right, Anne Marie?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we're gonna have her on because in our worlds, there feels like there's people who are debating this. We have sent Christine many referrals.

Legal Timelines And The 20-Year Threshold

SPEAKER_01

Many people referrals because I think it's important to lay it out. So my point is I'm gonna talk loosely based on my lived experience, none of which should be taken as legal or financial advice in any way. But my understanding is 20 years is an important time because past 20 years, you two are tied for a lifetime, meaning legally or something in the law, when you think of spousal support, there is you've basically built this life for 20 years. So now, even if you separate and divorce following 20, there is a responsibility and obligation for the rest of your lifetimes. Now that's within negotiation, like I didn't do that with mine, which was part of a negotiation tactic. But legally, you there's an entitlement to that. So interesting. If you're making more than the other, then you need to just know that you will be like you could potentially be paying spousal support for the rest of your life after 20. After 20. And I think it's retroactive, so I don't know that 18 makes, but I feel like it's I'm a black like I like very plain understanding of things. So I'm like, if you're at like 18 and a half, 19 years, I would say to my girlfriends, like, you haven't done anything yet, like might might just want to just wait a little longer.

SPEAKER_00

It's not funny. We shouldn't be laughing.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, anyone who knows me knows I'm gonna laugh my ass through this entire thing because if you're not laughing, you're crying about it. And like honestly, there was a lot of that too.

SPEAKER_00

That's yeah, there was this is not so you're taking it. Sounds like we're taking it lightly. That none of this was lightly. No, none of this is lightly, and I've been as your business partner and very close all the way through all of this, so it was not an easy period of time, and you have a family, and there's a ton of considerations. So you're not, you're kind of you're not sounding flippant, but you're just like, Yeah, I've been through it. But you now I'm on the other side of it.

SPEAKER_01

You have years of experience, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And when you're in a room of middle-aged women, like this is mid-age is kind of our topic on this podcast. We're talking about all the things we've been talking about, menopause, we've been talking about friendships, we've been talking about travel, we've been talking about sleep, we've been talking about all the things. Yeah, and if you're in a long-term relationship, that is also impacted by all those things as well. 100%.

Covid, Gray Divorce, And Identity Shifts

SPEAKER_01

And listen, I mean, we're just calling there's a term now that's used, right? We were talking about this gray divorce. Am I saying it right? Yeah, I believe so. So that like there's stats now. Like, I I don't think anyone will be surprised by that. And of course, I don't have the specific stats, but there are stats that show and also okay, so if we back up, COVID is a huge factor, right? I am among if we ask Christine, like her business the lawyer, the lawyer, sorry, the lawyer Christine, she will, I believe she said to me, like, business skyrocketed following COVID. COVID was a core um driver in people who realized, okay, maybe this doesn't happen. And and while I use 2022 as the the official date of separation, there were several years and lots of things that led up to that point. But that is an important determining factor is the date in which the separation is declared. Um, but this grade divorce is a real thing. Like we're all, as women at middle age, getting to a point where we realize kids are out of the house or not as dependent on you. We are having strong discussions and considerations about who am I? What is what is this new identity, this next chapter? And everything that maybe you were able to manage becomes less manageable. And and you're staring at your spouse in your face and going, is that is this what I want? Is this who I am? So I have a few thoughts around that.

SPEAKER_00

Um can I ask you two questions before you do that? You ask one. Or I want to redefine because I just quickly looked at gray divorce because I'm like, surely we're not like gray divorce feels like grandmas to me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, except that I like dye my roots, so I could be gray.

SPEAKER_00

I know, I'm I know that, yeah, me too. But yeah, I feel like what's but my point is I'm like, yeah, what but here is different, okay. Refers to the rising trends of couples over age 50, but sometimes 60 plus. So when I hear gray, I think seniors that's fair. Let's clarify we are not senior citizens. Like we have not even reached like the shoppers drug mart seniors yet, which is 55. So we're not there. I just want to clarify we're still young at you know, not just young at heart, we're still young, Tanya. So uh divorcing after long-term uh marriages, often referred to as silver splitters. Ooh, kind of like that.

SPEAKER_01

Silver splitters, it'd be like silver splitters, and you then you go to silver swingers. There probably is. I love a good From and too. I'm going now from a silver splitter to a silver swinger.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, where's the Instagram handle? I'm sure. I know. I'll talk about it. Okay, so and you know why it's driven? This is driven by increased longevity, which makes sense because you the same way that people leave long-term careers to start businesses, it's the same kind of the same people leave long-term relationships for themselves. There's still runway ahead. They're not, they still have another 25-40 years. Are you gonna spend another 25 years with someone you don't work well with anymore? Like that's a tough. So driven by increased longevity, higher independence, that makes sense, um, and lower stigma. Yeah, these splits commonly involve complex issues like splitting or retirement funds. Yes, dividing long-term assets, and navigating post-career financial security.

SPEAKER_01

So that's just those are huge, those are all very huge. So again, I can only live through my lived experience. So I think maybe what I can do is talk through a little bit of that. So those of you who don't care, you don't have to listen to this podcast. But those who are interested in some tea, you can continue to listen to some.

SPEAKER_00

Whether you just want the gossip or you were.

SPEAKER_01

And honestly, it's really quite vanilla. Like, I wish like there was no, you know, marital like, you know, cheating or any like, you know.

SPEAKER_00

You were married to a good person.

Reframing Marriage As Seasons

SPEAKER_01

I was married to a very good person. And I would say, in a lot of cases, the things with me is I was married to my best friend. Like we were very compatible in a lot of ways. Um, so which is why we had 25 years. I met him in university. So there my approach to the ending of the marriage is maybe not necessarily what I took away from it, is not necessarily what he did. And that's typically if you are the um, you've had time to process it, and I did a lot of work. Like you know that I met with a coach years before, and there were a lot of things going on kind of during COVID and post-COVID. Um, but I made sure that I did a lot of work to um understand what I wanted out of life. Like, who am I next? You did, who is this next who you wanted to be, who I wanted to be, without having made a decision, kind of knowing that the way things were likely wasn't gonna be the end goal. But but I wasn't like, oh, I'm now gonna leave my husband and blow up my family, and then I'm gonna figure it out. And I just I'm first I did it first. Um, and and that's kind of how I do things. Like even when I left the corporate job to start left turn with you, there was like a two-year time frame on the point in which I kind of knew that I was probably gonna do it. And I like to declare things in my head or to my close people to hold me accountable, but I don't just then do it, then I like put all the pieces together. So this was the same thing. So I encourage a lot of women, and I think that's what you have the all the conversations I have. People want to go for drinks with me. I always know it's because they want to leave their husband potentially, they want to, they're curious about renting because I currently rent and not um own my home, which was a conscious decision, um, or it's business development. Like those are the three things. So I'm always curious about it.

SPEAKER_00

They want to know, but they're all because you're not an impulsive person, you're very thoughtful, like you're not impulsive, you're thoughtful, you you think about but I'm decisive. Oh, I was just about to say when then once you make your mind up, there is zero backtrack. No, zero, but you are thoughtful in that consideration and then you're firm.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and the thoughtfulness will often happen internally. My close-knit people, I may bring one or two people in. So sometimes people think I am impulsive, like my ex-husband.

SPEAKER_00

Because he wasn't part of the he wasn't part of some of them.

Therapy As A Safe Communication Space

SPEAKER_01

He may have not consciously realized that, but he does because there were a few years. So I I I tend to just do it in my head. Um, so anyway, all of that to say that my discussion with a lot of people is like, okay, so that is an end result for sure. And there's a lot of you know, consequence, I wouldn't say consequence, but there's a lot of things that you need to consider. But who do you want to be? Who are you? And I think that's why it's happening so much for women at this age, because they now have the capacity and they're they're having those conversations with their friends or in their head and that sort of thing. So I think that's a beautiful thing. Um, but also I think it's important. So people call it now also uncoupling is like a common term because Gwen Gwen. Gwen, who yeah, um, goop, yeah, Gwenneth Peltro. Yeah. Um, but I do like the notion, and I went into this. So there was a book that you I think you asked me to read. Remember Les Nessen? Or it wasn't Les Nesman. What was that book? There was a book about a man who um he was gay and he's our he's our age, an older gay gentleman. So he's talking about his love and what um gay men who are older experience who have lost a lot of friends and have lost because of all of the you know, AIDS through the years, etc. Like older gay individuals, men have a different experience maybe than younger gay, as as we all do. And his love story, he talked about these gay couples. And it was so beautiful because these individuals were looking at marriage and or commitment, because in a lot of cases they actually couldn't get legally married, yeah, um, as a I contractual is the wrong way, but they he talked about this one couple of his where every 10 years they would go for a beautiful dinner and they would talk about their 10 years together and they would decide. You remember this, they would decide if they wanted to do another five or 10 years. And that for some reason, so two key books was that book, and um and uh what's her name? What was that book? I forget.

SPEAKER_00

I know um you read untamed is untamed less is more untamed.

SPEAKER_01

Untamed was the coming to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00

Untamed is like the unraveling, I think, of many women's relationships.

SPEAKER_01

So two because there's two key themes. So one is what is a beautiful life to you? That is um Glinton Doyle, that's yeah, that's what it's all about. Is what what so that's the work I think women at our age start to do. Like what's next? Who am I? And I would write in my book and did all of the things of what does a beautiful life look like for me. And if I go back to, and you know me, I don't write in books, so it happened very sporadically, but I did as part of my coaching, there was some discipline. And if I go back to it, it's exactly what I'm living now. It's incredible, but that's part of the work, and then this idea with it's interesting to me. 25 years of any relationship can't be seen as a failure, and that was that's what I kept saying.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that book, yeah.

Vulnerability, Safety, And Emotional Depth

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that book was, and then this couple like was like, Yes, I want to do 10 years. Then they came together, it was 20 years, and they decided quite amicably like it was 20 years was beautiful, but we are makes sense, entirely different people than the 20-year-old. I am a different person at 52 now than the 20-year-old, yeah, 21, 20, that met my ex-husband. So, you know, and I had to manage a lot of that. I think now, even three years later, there's a lot more discussion on that was a beautiful thing, but I had to explain to a lot of people, including my parents, and it was always circled around the failure of the marriage. And I was like, I think we need to left turn this and reframe this. I mean, I was saying that before Gwen Paucho, and I'm sure other people before me were saying it, but I was very strong in my because my experience was different, that this is not a failure. How can 25 years I've built a beautiful life with this man who you know, I have two amazing kids, um, you know, who, and like I just don't understand how that's a failure. And how how is it unreasonable to think that what I want for the next 10 to 15 to 20 years is just not necessarily what I wanted before, and not for a lack of anybody, it's no one's fault. It's just I'm an entirely different human. And and we will be happier separate because he is also an entirely different human. Um, and I was very sure about that. That took me a few years to get to that point. Yeah. And you know, therapy is a lovely thing. I say also to my friends who start to decide to go to couples therapy, which I did after I did my coaching because I needed to be sure of what I wanted. And I thought couples therapy, we didn't last long because I had already um kind of decided. But I use couples therapy as a very safe place to have conversations. So I say this to all my friends when they're like, oh, we want to go to couples therapy, but what's the point? Actually, what the point is is to create a safe place that is guided, hopefully by a therapist you like and is good, um, who can help you guys have open conversations. It allowed me to better explain to him the ending of the marriage in my mind, whether he heard it or not. And that was therapy, it wasn't for us to kind of figure it out and go on. It was a way to communicate everything I needed to communicate. So that's another like little tidbit that I think is important for people to like I would encourage you to do it. It may only be four or five. My girlfriend called it something. Oh, I'll have to ask her. There's a term actually that's important that you tell your therapist. Like, my goal of therapy is for communication and transition's the wrong word, but not reconciliation.

SPEAKER_00

Probably some would be a good idea. It's not reconciliation, something goes with reconciliation and trying to you bring up some really interesting thought though, is like the failure piece, right? Because we have been conditioned, everything has been like this is like your vows are you know, till death do you part. Yes. Your the government has set up this contract with you as well around your taxes and all of this, like there's benefits to having a marriage. I'm not anti-marriage, I'm married. Of course, and guess what?

SPEAKER_01

I'm not anti-marriage either.

Masculine And Feminine Energy Rebalanced

SPEAKER_00

Like I'm not. It'll be really interesting to see if the next generation does marry or if they go into long-term relationships that have a little more flexibility. Like, I forget that book. We're gonna have to remember. Was it Less is more? I think it's a I remember that. And yeah, he they would have, you know, do you want to do another five years? Are we committed to this? Do you want to do another? Like, that's actually an interesting way of looking at relationships and and time.

SPEAKER_01

I do think that that was the to me. Like I I and listen, I'm I have a growth mindset, like you have a growth mindset. Like if it but and it took me a lot to to wrap my head because we are so ingrained to believe that you choose someone. For the rest of your life. Like then every stupid um I love the shows on um blind uh love is blind and stuff, and the conversations these people are having about like, oh, but if I pick someone, like it needs to be for the rest of my life, which I consider laughable now. It's it's again when I decided to start left turn with you. I I always say it was like I was Keanu Reeves in The Matrix, and all of a sudden they unplugged me and I was like, What?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, all the unlearning. All the unlearning meetings. I'd be like, why are you doing it like that, Danny?

SPEAKER_01

Why are you at your desk at 8 30? Or like, why are you at 8 30? Like you, you know, you could it nine's okay. Like no one, like, why, why, right? Unlearning of why are you doing it this time?

SPEAKER_00

I've actually unplugged you so much that you've been. Oh my gosh. Like, it's actually you're way more unplugged now than me.

Practicalities: Lawyers, Separation Agreements

SPEAKER_01

Oh, now I'm like super unplugged because you see that. So that was my first unplugging. I mean, I would argue I probably had a bit of an unplugging in high school when I I kind of took off the separate topic. Separate topic. But but through life, when you talk about pause, they talk about we coin it, which we did a long time before pause was left turn, right? That was the first left turn. But in visually, if you want, it's like you get unplugged and you look at the world, and now once you've seen that, you cannot unsee it. Yeah. So when you wrap your head around and you unlearn this notion that I do not, I now talk to my kids very differently about relationships, it's it's unrealistic to expect that you are gonna head into a relationship for the rest of your life. Good for you for those who do it. And I do believe it happens. Like, sure, that's that's the case. But with women now and our girls, if we think of our girls who can be and should be financially independent, you know, um emotionally independent, spiritually independent, physically independent, like we can now get mortgages, buy homes, we can do what boys can do. There's still a little some challenges or whatever, but we're so the role of the man and the role of the woman is completely changed. So we talk about equality, we can go down that path. But when you unlearn that I'm gonna go in because this person, I can see the next 10 years together or when they're younger, yeah, I want to start a family with that, but take the pressure off it. And I do think that that would open an entirely new dialogue, etc. So I am like you, I'm very curious. I think the expectation of our girls and girls going forward is going to be very different. Oh my gosh, I was just having the conversation with two women yesterday, and she was talking about her daughters, and she said, it's incredible. Six months ago, they were talking about marrying their boyfriends, and then it's done. And I said, Good for them. What was it? And they said, Well, they started identifying red flags, which is the term, and there is an expectation with these girls, like, I'm sorry, I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna settle for that. And I said, Oh my gosh, whereas we were brought up to be like, well, there must be something wrong with us. We need to change, we need to accommodate, like that is our generation, right? Of women. We can do better, we can try better. That's a lot of the unlearning I have with my girlfriends who are on the fence as to what they do. Is like, why do we need to manage this? Well, what? Because we were taught that. I don't think our girls will feel the same way.

SPEAKER_00

I was um, I'm reading that new book uh by Elizabeth Gilbert. I know you've read it too The Walk to the River. So good. And she was taught in it, she's talking about um the benefits of marriage for men versus women. And because women are traditionally overgivers, the stats are that men who are married live longer, women who are married live shorter because they have overgived. Yep. And they've just depleted their resources, depleted their hearts, they have just given, given, given. Yes. Um, women with children and are married live even less. Yes. So if a woman is married with no children, she still lives like shorter than if she was no no children and no no marriage. She lives the longest because that woman has had time to devote to herself.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And has not given away all of her energy. Essentially, it's an energy. I what I believe when you're talking about this new generation of of women, I think that they're going into more equal partnerships. And I also think our partnerships honestly were pretty equal. Like your your partnership is pretty equal. My mine is pretty equal. Way more equal than that. Yeah, that was not the complaints, way more equal than but but that's just one of the things. I think this construct, though those stats are built on, I believe, unequal partnerships and an innate. I don't know, we've built into girls to give.

Money, Kids, And Asset Division Basics

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and we are nurturers. And and listen, I so this is like the other, I'm just gonna share all of my highlights and my tidbits of what I share, but that led me into um, I think it's important for people to know, and I'm very clear about this. Um, I'm very pro-male too. Like I didn't leave a marriage and going, I mean, I did think about it for a minute. Like I actually was like, maybe I could just be a lesbian. And I don't know. And I think most women do. They're like, oh, maybe this is my opportunity. Definitely, but I am not attracted to women. I tried real hard. I didn't like maybe I am, maybe that could be the thing, but I'm not. I am attracted to men, and I'm actually a big fan of men. I am in a relationship now, so clearly I wouldn't be if I wasn't. There is definitely value that that companionship brings. Uh I also am raising a boy. Like I'm at it's not about that at all. Um, but I do think it's about how going forward you want, and listen, that's my perimenopause, and I've totally lost my train of thought. I should have written that down. Um, but I believe it was along the lines of it is important as you kind of go forward and step into this new space that you look at it very much as uh someone is wrong, less, you know, that person is lesser than it. It is actually not about that at all. It is about women and who you are wanting to kind of rise to whatever that beautiful life is. Um, there was another point and it'll come to me. I just can't remember it.

SPEAKER_00

I think we should talk about um, because I think we will see if Christine wants to come and have that.

SPEAKER_01

I think that would be so important.

SPEAKER_00

There are women in our circles, and as soon as I find out somebody is thinking about this, I say, Oh, you need to talk to Tanya. She could help you. Yeah. Um, or maybe we're sending them to Christine. I think you've gone through so many transitions from um also overlapping, you've also had children leave for university. So you have gone over some like major double dipping, like a relationship um ending, yeah, child leaving for school, then you had another one you needed to get out, then you had to move homes. Yes. Had to, you know, leave the family home, make the financial decisions on whether you would buy a place or rent a place. You've had to figure out friendships, like which friendships kind of had it. Yeah, that uncoupling is interesting too. You've had to deal with family members. Your sister has gone through divorce at the exact same time. Yeah, we did it at the same time.

Redefining Home: Renting And Simplicity

SPEAKER_01

So, which was an unplanned, obviously, just a weird unplanned, it was just happened. And honestly, though, it does come down to it is important to have people in your circle. So here's the reality like, not everyone's gonna understand what you're going through, and that's okay. Like, there's no expectation to do that. But and if you're blessed to have, you know, lots of some good friends in your life, that's awesome. But some people will be able to relate more than others. And um, I always say, with divorce, there becomes a great responsibility of the person who's gone through it to I work really hard not to put that on to other people. Like I'm not going around going, you should totally get divorced. It's like the best thing since sliced bread.

SPEAKER_00

No, I would say you're actually the opposite. I think you're the opposite. I think you have a great perspective of saying, um, because I've been in many groups with you where people are talking, and you I feel like you're categorizing in your head the problems, like the ones, because ultimately I think you're an advocate of women becoming the best people they can be. Yes. And you can be the best person you can be inside of a relationship. Yeah. You don't have to leave that relationship to find yourself. You can find yourself within that relationship.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's what you're mostly seeing middle-aged women doing. You're they're mostly saying, okay, so how can I be better? But then if they can't be better inside that relationship, then they're making that decision, or he's making that decision. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that a hundred percent that's it. And and listen, when you go through it, again, so it's important to find people who have either gone through it or are. I was lucky to have my sister in a way because we were able to just together kind of help ourselves through it. So that was amazing. Um, but in a lot of cases, it is important to talk to people who've gone through it. And I'm hoping they approach it the same way I do. And it's exactly the way because I'm on the other side of it, and same with I would think Elena would feel the same way. There's some key learnings that I want to share forward. So I have a clear understanding now as to why the marriage ultimately ended, even better than when I called it, which was even better than the two years prior of me thinking about it. Like if you're a growth mindset person, you've you've realized. Um, and I think it's important for people to talk to someone who's gonna say, listen, if you're pissed off because he's leaving, like, of course you're frustrated about all of the things, and vice versa, he's frustrated with you. Like, I'm on the other side with a man who is wonderful. The grass, though, isn't greener. Like, I drive him nuts, he drives me nuts. Like, luckily, he lives in Ireland, like that saves us.

SPEAKER_00

You're just treating one 50-year-old for another 50 year old.

Talking With Kids And Letting Go

SPEAKER_01

Basically, and and vice versa. Like, you know, we talk, and I'm just like, oh my God, I'm totally like your ex-wife because that's how I feel. Like, there's commonalities, like literally, like it is, but but what you then so for me, it's the depth of the vulnerability. So this is kind of my soapbox for five seconds because I do think this is oh so important for women our age, because I think we have all been conditioned to be like, everything's fine, it's fine. I'm just gonna fix it, it's fine. And I've done that, but there are actual people, and I have like one girlfriend and she has this relationship with her husband, and I was like, oh my God, this is the relationship you have. And she goes, Yeah, didn't you? And I'm like, no. Where you can actually be your whole self, you can be your worst self, you can communicate and say, This is really pissing me off. Like, we need to work through this, like, whether that's screaming, whether that's throwing things, whether that's whatever it is. Yeah. But the point is, is you feel safe to be able to have that conversation with that person. And that other person shows some signs of understanding and is trying to do better. So uh that's how I say it in its basic sense.

SPEAKER_00

And people are versus the fine dealing with nothing. When you say fine, you mean like surface level, surface level, ignore it, yeah, sweep it under the rug.

SPEAKER_01

Let's so I'm gonna quote, I'm gonna quote my Irish boyfriend who says, our so my relationship with my ex was deep as a puddle. Meaning, imagine an Irish accent saying that deep, deep as a poodle, however they say it. But um, in that we never, and it wasn't anyone's fault. I came up from a a childhood where I was learned, no one's fault again, to just um not express my feelings because I never felt safe to do that. Um and I coupled with someone who was unable to do the same. So we were compatible and we had like the best times and we traveled and went to concerts and did all of those things. Um, we had compatibility and building life and career and all of those things, but emotionally we just never dealt with our stuff. I was just like, it's fine, you're like that. I'm just gonna work around it. And I'm sure he did the same. So I say that to everyone. If you have at least that, I promise you that if you're looking for like another relationship, that's the end goal. Like that is the vulnerability. It's what I tell my kids now. It's they're still gonna leave their socks on the floor and they're gonna do all of those things, and they may not, may forget your birthday and all of those things. That doesn't matter. It's that you're able to actually have a conversation with someone and say, I'm feeling very hurt right now or sad right now or pissed off right now. And that's also women our age, we need to learn that it's okay to say that. So in my current relationship, that is a big that's hard for me. I still go to I'm fine. And luckily, I have an empath who's like, are you fine? Really? And then he pisses me off because I don't want him to ask that I'm fine because I don't want to talk about it. But that type of relationship, if you have that with your current partner, I believe you're doing 75% better than the rest of us. And people are like, really? Like, yeah, because I didn't have that. Why people cheat? Because they don't have that, not the cheating's not the issue, and I no one cheated, but I'm just saying that's at the core, I believe. Yeah, relationship success.

Downsizing, Flexibility, And Daily Life

SPEAKER_00

So it's like mutual respect and appreciation and trying to feel the emotional.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's actually safety. I've actually even called and I think that's what we all look for, like our childhood trauma that our 50-year-olds are dealing with, understanding why we respond the way we do, is because for some reason we didn't feel safe before. And when I say safe, I don't mean like the extreme of my life is in danger. I mean we didn't feel safe enough to be able to emote, yeah, emotionally vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00

You didn't feel like it was welcomed.

SPEAKER_01

I believe that is probably status quo for most people, women within our generation. Yeah, I would agree. And then men also don't feel like they grew up in the same households we did, right? So they're so you have two, you have two people who one can't emote and the other doesn't know what to ask because they don't know how to deal with someone who can emote, um, or have been told, like, don't emote as a male. That's not manly. That's not, oh, this was my point.

unknown

Ha!

SPEAKER_01

I believe strongly that women can be vulnerable and should be in their feminine self. So this is this is I live a I'm in my masculine self, most women our age for in all aspects of our life, if you think about it. That's why we don't need to get married anymore.

SPEAKER_00

And by masculine self, define what you think of that. Because I think I know what you mean, but explain.

Healing Time And Responsibility To Self

SPEAKER_01

That's a really good point. And some people may argue like, why is that masculine? Can it be gender neutral? But if you categorize things, the typical masculinity, if you think about um the taking control of certain things, the leadership, the leadership, etc. So I think why things are falling down is actually there is no such thing as masculine and feminine really anymore. But I like the notion of it because I also I'm a kick-ass female leader in all aspects of my life, but I also want to be a bit of a princess. I do. I want to be taken care of. I think both can be true. And the problem and the challenge for women our age is we feel like, and I think the idea of femininity or um, you know, being um a feminist is that we believe in giving that up, and that's not the case. So I believe we show up, so I'm just gonna use masculine or feminine in the best way in my masculine way every day. I'm running my own house, I'm running a business, I'm taking care of the kids, and that. So what I need when I am now put myself in my feminine self is I just need someone to take the lead. I want someone to take care of me. That doesn't mean I give up the other part. And I believe that is what most women and all women should achieve and and and and and and be comfortable with that you can you can have both and not one is not less than the other. But I do think that that's the biggest challenge now for men and women. So I guess what was that book?

SPEAKER_00

Men are for Venus, Men Are for Mars from Mars or Women A for Venus. That's like eight.

SPEAKER_01

I never actually read that book, but I wonder if that would be an entirely different book.

SPEAKER_00

In today's world. Yeah, in today's world. Uh probably but probably, but also not. Because essentially it's saying we have different needs and expectations. Now the needs and expectations may have shifted, but it's we're still different.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But I wonder if it's I guess in my head it's men and women, which is masculine and female, I get it. But if there was different care categories, I believe those two categories do exist, but I don't know if it's if you're a female, therefore you're you sit in the feminine. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I don't probably they probably that's probably the anyway. It was more of a sidebar. I was like so if we were having people on, another thing we were talking about was like the transition. So like how did you help? Like, I I I know the answer because I've been with you along the way, but other people don't. Like, how did you make some of the big decisions like that where to live? Right. Uh how like what did you need for your children? Like, you've got grown children. What do you what kind of home do you need to create for them? Yeah, how was I going to live my life? Like, yeah, like some of those big choices, I'm sure those are part of the meetings that people want when they chat with you and have questions.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they do. And I think more so people are just curious what my path was, but like obviously everyone has different requirements based on where they are in their life. Um, but I mean, listen, yes, you need a really good lawyer. So Christine is the we're gonna have her on, and I will just call me, I will give you her number, Christine Marchetti, she's amazing. Um, you need a really good lawyer.

SPEAKER_00

Um and you know and you need the lawyer for the separation, not just for the divorce, right? That seems to be a misconception.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's really the separation agreement, is the is the biggie. The divorce is just a cash grab from the government and paperwork.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but I think people that don't know don't know that. Like I don't think I knew that until we did work with Christine, and I was like, yes, this is converted to what you think. Yeah. So if you don't get the legal done early, there's uh there's problems.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and you have to. So people use the term divorce. I use separation actually quite specifically, but let's just use divorce. But there's two phases there's the separation part, once you get this the agreement and the legal stuff signed, and I'll get I'll go through that, and this is the non-legal way of saying it, then you got to wait a year and then you can be divorced. But divorce is literally based on the separation agreement, and it's just you pay two grand or 1500 or whatever it is, you got to pay a lawyer again to do it. And most people, Christine's advice to me is like, really, you don't need to do it unless you're gonna planning on getting married again. Like it literally is it doesn't matter, but a lot of people like to do it because they want full closure. That's why they're like, I just want to be fully untethered. Regardless, the big part and what takes forever is the development of the separation agreement. So for most women now, hopefully this is true for you, but a lot of us it's not, is your financial situation. So in my case, while I was married to an accountant, um, I took care of all financial situations in the household. I knew exactly where everything was, I knew what a budget was to run the household. Um, I just took care of all of that. So I was in a good situation to be able to have a sense of what how we were doing financially, and you have to think about what you need to live going forward. Now that is done by the lawyers, and literally it's uh an equation. So it's how much do you make, how much does he make, or whatever, how much both of you make, and you just equate it. So it's it's math. Basically, if someone makes 200 and someone makes a hundred, you both need to make a hundred and fifty at the end of the day. Does that make sense? Like that's as simple as that's the right math, right? Um, so but you need to have an appreciation of what it takes to Run the household and what the kids are gonna need. So I was fortunate that my kids were older when it happened. So I knew they were out of the house and we had RESPs and that was gonna work out. But if you obviously have younger children, you need to consider that child support and all of that comes into play. Um, but those are that's the first thing I say to anyone who calls me is do you do you have access to all the financial situation? And and hopefully the answer is yes. And in some cases it's no. And and through the process, they have to disclose everything. And in some cases, it's happened to some of people I know where things come up and there's credit cards here, there, and everywhere. But that's like worst case scenario. You hope that doesn't happen. Yeah, generally, I think most people know, and then you have to divide assets and do all of that stuff. So financial, not surprising, is a big reason why people do not get divorced. Well, it's expensive, it's flipping expensive. So when I did all of that, so that was once you get through the stigma of actually I'm I'm divorcing, and why did your marriage fail? You get past all of that. And I don't know if that happens at I like to think that people don't automatically get there and we're understanding that 25 years of a marriage is something to be celebrated. It totally is versus and I was that was my response to everyone. I was like, I actually am really proud of and and I have no regrets over what those 25 years, I just need and want something different. So then you have to make a decision on what does life look like? And hopefully you've done some of that before because here's the thing you asked me the question what drives some of those decisions, where you live, etc. So this you were the person who helped me with this. In most cases, Sam Marie is, and she likes she likes that validation, so I'm gonna give it to her. There's very true.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I've sent you those quotes or those things, but I hope they helped.

SPEAKER_01

I know. So I'm gonna share this, and I know we only have five minutes left, but there isn't like really much much else we need to do. Five minutes because I have another meeting. But the big one is it's really important for you then to make decisions as to what life is gonna look like and where you're gonna live for yourself. Now, if your children are young, that is very hard to do. It's harder to do. So I take that when I had one per one going into uni and the other was like literally two years out. And we I was able to negotiate kind of staying in the matrimonial home, which happens in most cases. If you have younger kids, there's an opportunity, someone needs to stay until you decide the separation happens. Ours happened really quickly compared to others. But if it takes a year or two, typically someone's staying in the matrimonial home and then you're selling the house after. But you have to think about that. So we went on a walk, and I was very, I was struggling because my kids, my one kid in particular, is not doesn't love change and was imagining my life to be very similar to what he had for many years, um, which would be a home, a large home that fits everybody, that I had to manage, and I was buying it, and that would be it. And I was like, I don't want any of that. I I just I just want a simple life. So my vision of a beautiful life was scaling it down to its smallest, simplest state. I want to be able to. I always said this to you. It's like I had I had a dream once that I was just shutting a door and turning the key, shutting the door and taking off. So shockingly, I'm flying all over the place. I don't want to take care of a home. Yeah, I'm also not good at it. I don't know where light bulbs are, I don't care. If something's broken, I need a man who's that's my feminine side who's just gonna fix it. And I don't want to know how you fixed it. I don't want you to ask me where anything is.

SPEAKER_00

That is just what you need to take care of. Yeah, because you came from your parents' house to living with him. You didn't, you've never lived getting rid of it. And he was excellent at that. Like, I will props to that man.

SPEAKER_01

You asked him something, he flipped and did it immediately. He was great and he figured it all out and he could he was great. So I was like, I don't know how to do that. Like I told you there was like literally four months of me changing in my closet without a changed light bulb because I just didn't know how I didn't want it's not I am capable, I just don't want to have to do it. So I have this thing.

SPEAKER_00

You're not a handy, that's not your thing.

SPEAKER_01

It's not my thing, and I don't care.

SPEAKER_00

And if I don't you're not like a decorator, home, you're not that, you're not a Martha Stewart type. Like that's not your like you like you take pride in your home, but that's not how you spend your time. Yeah, like you're not a gardener, you're not a that's not who you are.

SPEAKER_01

It's absolutely not who I am. So the big thing with that is so you said then why why are you doing that? Like, why are you so because my ex was building that life, he was talking to the kids about the big house, and he wanted to replace, and a lot of men do. I've learned this through my dating experience that most men just want to recreate what they had, whereas I look at it entirely differently. I'm like, this is my opportunity to flip it on its head and do things entirely differently. So you were like, you need to have this conversation. And I sat my one child done because my other one's a different being, and I didn't need to have that conversation, maybe in a different degree, and had to be very clear to say, so life is not gonna look the same, and that's okay. And you have a home with me, and this is but this is what I need to do for me, and you are still loved and you are still safe, and you will have that with your dad if that is what you want, but you will not have that with me, it will look different, and it was a great conversation, and he understood it. I mean, he was older too, so he could understand it. And yes, he lives with his dad, like he's in uni, but when he's not, and I also had to be okay with that. Like we're literally five minutes away. I see him all the time. It's not, but I had to let go of that as a failure. And I know people when I say, Oh, but is doesn't your son don't they come home? I'm like, one does, but the other doesn't. And I can see people are like, Oh, there must be a story there. No, literally, the T is that is he wanted and needed more space, like he wanted that structure, and his dad could give that to him. And I I didn't want to have a big empty house and be pissed off at my kids because they were never home. And I made all these different changes, and now look, I'm alone by myself.

SPEAKER_00

You were looking at places that had two bedrooms versus three. You've wound up with a place with three, but it allowed you to have the flexibility to say, okay, I'm only looking for two bedrooms. Yes. And that allowed you to look in way different areas, way different circumstances. Yes. And then you have wound up with an extra bedroom. I have. He could sleep there anytime he wants, but he could.

SPEAKER_01

It's not that he doesn't have a space, but he has just it, it was more of a decide, and it it it also gave him permission to be okay and not feel also the kids feel they need to be obligated. I was like, no, it's totally okay, buddy. I'm cool with it. And guess what? We're gonna go on vacations together and we're gonna do those things. And if you need a down payment, that's what you said. The legacy is not creating the the house he had before. The legacy can look different. I was like, my legacy.

SPEAKER_00

That was the term.

SPEAKER_01

That was that was the term is financially the freedom. So I rent, that's the point. And it's not that I the money is invested in a different way so that I have the flexibility to to buy if I choose to, once I figure out where the hell my kids are. Like, why would I buy a house? That doesn't make sense to me. Why would I buy a house so immediately when I have no idea what life is gonna look like? Um, it gives me the flexibility, it's gaining, you know, we're getting a little money over there, and then I'll make the decision later. And I can change my mind, ladies. You could change your mind too. That's okay. But it the it allowed the kids to to do to figure that out.

SPEAKER_00

So that's and you downsized to a to um a three-bedroom townhouse, but remember we did look at all the apartments, and you were almost into a two-bedroom apartment. But are you glad you're not in an apartment?

SPEAKER_01

Like, would that have been too fast of a that would have been where do you put and I downsized a lot of stuff? Like I have funny stories like my ex kept everything. I was like, get away. Like, I took a couple pieces of furniture and that was it. Um, you know, I mean, I feel I downsized a lot, but to get into that, might be my next phase ultimately. Yeah. But I I do think that that's a biggie. That would have been a stretch, but that's how I work.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, I'm gonna just flip it entirely on its head, but yeah, completely and then moved her, and then she brought all the biggest Costco sizes of everything. And I was like, where do you think you're going?

SPEAKER_01

The downsizing of the fridge, in fact, and the storage for the food alone, I'm learning to for one person, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um I'm very proud of you. You've gone through massive transitions in the last four years from like mental plant decisions and then the execution of that. Yeah, and I say to our team often we don't give you enough credit because you do you're like the duck with like the feet going crazy underneath. Like, look on the top, but there's a ton of stuff going on that you don't see. Yeah. And you've been able to manage that and the emotions of that for yourself, but also for your family and manage, you know, the ex-husband who is a good person, who is a good person.

Believing In Love Again

SPEAKER_01

It's the emotional. Everyone's going through it, and there's nothing wrong with that. And you have to someone needs, someone is responsible. How I looked at it is if it's my responsibility to end the marriage, like if I've decided to end the marriage, then it's my responsibility to try and get within reason boundaries, like you know, he needs to figure his shit out. I wasn't doing that, but it is, I do have a level of responsibility to get these people I care about through this to a degree. So that's what people understand. And it's funny, I was just talking to someone um, and like the first year after I like literally was on the couch watching Netflix for a year. Like, I couldn't even, I think you also have to give yourself time to heal. Because if you're bringing everyone forward, don't underestimate kind of the weight of that. Um, so like the first year was I was happy to just Netflix and well, because it was exhausting for you. It was exhausting.

SPEAKER_00

Everything also became you had to take on a whole bunch of responsibilities that you had never done.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, so many things on your business that you had not done, and that was and running a business at the same time and making sure like there's responsibilities beyond, you know, life continues even as you're going through this. My sister talks about it all the time. Like, that's where we came together. It's like she's running it, you know, and that's our income. Like that is important, it was always important, but it becomes even more important in that moment. Yeah, you're so yeah, it's it's also give yourself a pass to just chill when you can breathe for once. So, and I think I'm still in that phase, but anyway, I know we need to shut this down um because I've been talking long enough. But if anybody wants to chat more, you let me know. But we'll have other guests on to further and deepen some of these conversations, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, okay, I love you. Happy Valentine's Day. Happy oh yes, but circle back. I still believe in Cupid. You do, you do I do, you do, and you're for anyone. You can all see why this is such a special friend of mine, anyway. Very strong woman, and you helped me through a lot of it too. You help me, it's you need your people, yeah. You need and you need to listen, and also for friends just to listen. Absolutely, absolutely. I have some good ones. Okay, all right, love you. Good chat, good chat.