A divorce lawyer's take on why divorce spikes in midlife

We talk with family lawyer and mediator Christine Marchetti about why divorce often spikes during major life shifts and how midlife women start refusing the roles that kept them quiet. We break down smarter ways to separate, protect kids and finances, and rebuild without turning your former partner into an enemy.

• COVID pressures that magnify existing relationship cracks
• Midlife change and menopause as a catalyst for “gray divorce”
• Mental load dynamics and why imbalance becomes intolerable
• Reframing the idea of a “failed marriage”
• Why the second biggest decision is how you separate
• When court is necessary and when it is avoidable
• Negotiation, mediation, mediation arbitration, and arbitration explained
• Collaborative law basics and how neutral experts can help
• Children and conflict including the damage of silence
• Financial disclosure, records, and planning for post-divorce costs
• Repartnering later in life and why agreements protect everyone
• Choosing kindness over the “shark” approach and making generous assumptions

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Good morning. Hi, Tanya. Hey Anne-Marie. How are you today? Good. We have I'm great. We have a guest with us today, uh the day after uh International Women's Day. And perfect timing. So we have a guest, Christine Marketti, who we know, we know who's been, we were first introduced to you, I think, as you were one of our clients originally. And we and Tani has also had the, I don't know, I was gonna say the pleasure, I think, given the circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure support, Christine.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

I am a fan. Yeah. And Christine is a family lawyer with uh Marquetti Law. And so we've you focus on you can maybe you should tell us a little bit about yourself. So we do it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Sure. I um I've been uh I've been a family lawyer. This is my 21st year of practice. Um congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, I worked in uh Toronto for most of my career um at a couple bigger firms and uh started my own firm in uh Halton in 2019.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, you took a left turn and didn't turn on your own.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, I did. I took a left turn and then uh became a mediator two, three years ago. So I also do family law mediation.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Oh, I don't think I knew that.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

And I'm a collaboratively trained lawyer, so I litigate, but I also do um collaborative law, which is a subset which I'm happy to chat with you about. That's a good thing, yeah. People understand what that means, and that's me. Love that's you.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Well, welcome. Yeah, we're we if it well, if anyone listened, and now we'll kind of speak broadly to our listeners out there that our super fans, our super fans. Um, there were probably two podcasts ago, maybe three, um, where we got into a little bit more of a discussion around um something we'd reference specifically uh my divorce uh and separation, and really what from a midlife standpoint women are going through a lot of the conversations I'm having. So in that podcast, and that's a good one to start with, as people say, um, we referent Christine um often because uh you have been a huge help just in my process. And no, we're not gonna get into the specifics of mine, but just your approach. And I love as you were introducing yourself. I didn't even know that you went down kind of these other paths. I think that's a really good start because that's sometimes one of the key questions um that I get is what process did you go through? What makes the most sense? Um, but I just want to preface all of this to say is my experience with you. I will say, I say this all the time, and if I reference it wrong, I'm sorry, but this is I'm not gonna apologize. If I reference it wrong, you can correct me. Christine was also at our International Women's Day um talk. So she heard Dr. Maya. I apologize. Maya, do not apologize. Um, I also reference why I enjoyed working with you. A proponent, you know, I love working with women, but I felt we worked collaboratively through the process and your experience brought a lot of background that allowed us to navigate. So we're just hoping this conversation can be like high levels. What are some of the themes that have been going on? I don't know if I accurately said it felt like after COVID, everyone was having the conversation as to whether or not, you know, a marriage was the right thing for them. Um, so maybe we start there. What have you at a high level maybe been seeing over the years? Um, and you said you listened to that podcast, so maybe we can start there. And then what are the various options? Because I feel like that is the first start. Where is it mediation? You talked about collaboration, etc.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah, I mean I was uh on a family trip six months after I had started a took a left turn and started my own practice in March of 2020, when you know everyone watched. We were like, we were like, should we go home? No, it's fine. Um panic, panic slowly sets in, March break is being extended, things, you know, unprecedented. And I remember waiting in line um to come back to Canada and just uh crying because I was so uh uncertain and fearful for what was going to await me. I remember turning to my husband and saying, I started this practice six months ago and I am now going to face, I I don't know what I'm gonna face. No one, none of us did. Um, and I was really just worried that I had left security and a job I loved to start something on my own. And I was like, is this do I get six months and that's it? You know, what happens? And I'm very grateful that my industry, my profession pivoted really quickly. Um, because we had to, because we service families and we service families at their most vulnerable time, and we had to. And so the government did a really good job, our court system did a really good job. And yes, I would say that COVID was extremely busy.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Um I it I would also say that I mean, I I think across industries, COVID also brought COVID brought some like really wonderful things, like the ability to work from home and it it brought like wonderful things, but it also brought like this um sense of urgency or instantness that I don't know if you've experienced with the people that you help. Um, so that was kind of like that that's been an interesting shift, right? Like people just think that things happen, you know, really, really, really quickly. Um, I think we need to be more gracious and kind with each other in terms of timing, but definitely an increase. And I think it happens of two twofold. First of all, family law is recession proof. People stick together when there is money, right? When the going is good, you know? Yes. When you're going on vacation and you got nice dinners and you know, you're not worried, um people stick together because it makes things, it's like the lubricant, right? It like makes things easier. Makes the machine, yes, makes the machine move. But when there's not when there's uh when when that is not around as an incentive, we can see, you know, and it becomes a stressor. So it's not around as an incentive, it becomes a stressor in the relationship. Um and and people people separate. So you know, uh there's I I there can be spikes in in separation um around financial uncertainty and financial times of crisis. So COVID brought that for many people, sadly, unfortunately. But also, I think, and this is more like colloquially, and I think my family law colleagues would agree, is that you have people who are now in the same place at the same time, but all of the time. So those breaks that you had to go to work or to play golf or to play euchre or to go to book club or whatever the case may be that brought you apart, gave you those moments of reprieve, also gave you that like fodder for conversation between the two of you, is gone. And I think some people looked at each other and was like, what the heck? Um what am I what am I doing here? And then you have the stressors of like if you were schooling young children or what have you.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Um I think it highlights the cracks, it highlights the cracks, it's like a magnifying glass.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yes. And yeah, and I and and definitely I think there was a real surge for us. We were very busy.

Menopause Mental Load And Divorce

SPEAKER_01 8:22

So I have a question because you made a really good point, and I think that was when Tanya referenced after COVID. I think you were meaning not just what the world was going through, but exactly what you just said. People suddenly turned inwards, and maybe their frustrations, there was no, there was no outlet for those frustrations. So I have a question because a lot of what we talk about here is midlife, and you hear and we talk a lot about women and what we're going through. I wonder if the COVID-like situation. So menopause and change of life, and when you say, you know, when the going is good, people stay. When the going is not good, people consider alternatives. I feel like this is such this can be a very difficult transition in people's in women's lives, especially if they're not getting the help that they need, or they're after, you know, one year or 20 years, realize the partnership is not equal, or they feel unseen or unheard, or whatever. But that that is another magnifying glass, just like COVID, this change of life, um, or transition, like your kids leave and suddenly smoke. So I feel like that's in our circles. Tanya and I have lost count now with the number of friends we're also sending to you. Yes. And they're like or like go at least check out Christine. Um, because you have a very nice approach to it. Because I would imagine people sometimes just need to get it out of their head and talk to somebody else. That doesn't mean they follow through necessarily. Um, but anyway, so do you see a theme with women in this kind of 45 to 55, like this gray divorce theme?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Well, I would agree with you. We are not quite gray. Um, I know.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

But that but according to the the definition, we are we don't have to be gray.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

We don't have to be gray. Um, I wrote a paper on gray divorce. I yeah, I found gray divorce fascinating. Um I have my own theories on divorce. Um I think obviously people are living longer. I think you identified this when you were talking. People are living longer. And so you're looking at the future and you're like, am I really going to tolerate 20, 30, 25, 40, whatever the case may be, more years that are unsatisfactory or unsatisfying or aren't giving me what I need and want? Or am I going to make a change and choose happiness, choose growth, choose something different for myself? I think and and and to model, if you have children still in the household, right? You know, people have children later. Um, model to children healthy relationships, um, health like a sense of um, you know, your own self-worth and what you deserve. And are you gonna model to your children how like happiness is, you know, it's not just something, it's not something that happens to you, right? It is a journey. It's a, it's your, you're, you move towards growth and something different. And and along the way is that that's where the happiness is. So I think particularly perimenopause, menopause, what have you. Like, I don't know if we're allowed to swear here. I'm not going to. Oh, I already we are. I'm not going to, but I think for women, you just there's no more like bull S-H-I-T that you are prepared to put up with. Yes. Yeah. We have very we have such little patience as it is. And I think, yeah, I think a lot of women, and also I think this generation is is much more therapy positive. Yes. Right. And I'm not saying everyone who goes to therapy is going to leave their spouse. Yeah. Um, but usually people are seeking out therapy because they're because there is something like the what's missing. There's a gap. There's like, yeah, like I feel, I don't feel right and I don't know why. So I'm gonna go talk to someone about it. And sometimes it's because your job, it's not the right job, or sometimes it's because you're struggling with your children, but sometimes it's because the relationship you're with you're in is not is problematic. And then you have options. You can turn to your spouse and say, Hey, do you want to go on this journey with me? I think maybe we can do this therapy thing together. And I believe if you're gonna do it together, you need three therapists, very unpopular view. But you need each of you need your own therapist, and then you need to couple them. You need to have a couple because you need to do the work on your own. You can't do the work, it can't be in a silo that you do the work when you see your therapist. You need to do your own personal work. And it needs to be in a in a place where like you're not worried that the not that they can, but that the therapist is gonna tattletale, right? Like you need to do your own growth in your own therapy. And I think people who are are they're not taking bowl anymore. There's they're at a point in their life where they're looking at what the future holds for them. They're looking at what they want their legacy to be. They what they're the last right, and and then they're making they're making choices and people are no longer prepared to tolerate things. I think particularly menopausal and perimenopausal women, we are we're like we're not prepared to tolerate poor health and health care anymore. We're not prepared to tolerate substandard working conditions in our jobs. We are not prepared to tolerate um, you know, a life that isn't full and rich. And that sometimes means taking a look at your primary relationship and does it work? And I think you know, the whole the whole like mental load, which I know gets thrown around quite frequently, but it's so freaking accurate, particularly in heteronormative relationships where like mom is like the CEO of the household, and notwithstanding if she has a job and notwithstanding what kind of job she has, and she's like, Why am I doing two why do I have two full-time jobs when my spouse doesn't? Right, and they're just not satisfied to put up with it anymore. And so they make changes.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

And in terms of gray divorce, what I think I when I say I have lots of thoughts and theories, very frequently in a heteronormative relationship, where the woman was the CEO of the household, part of what she's also doing is managing the social calendar for both parties.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yes. And that's such a bad joke when people joke about it. I'm like, why are we joking about this?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

It's not funny. It's not funny. Oh, talk to my wife. Really? Yeah, because then men it's not funny. It's not funny, but men then are I think men are terribly lonely after the divorce.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

100%. Oh, because she managed all of it.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

She managed them for him.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah, that's an interesting point.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, I think and I think we need to be really mindful of of mental health issues that arise in grade divorce.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

There are stats too to support the that mental health challenge with men post-divorce. There are, I don't know. I'll always reference, I'm sure there's a stat out there, but I've read it. Um, but that's a very real thing as well. And I think that's for that reason, right? The loneliness is real.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

So the men didn't foster the relationships and then they end up without their people. Is that the that's the hypothesis? Many reasons, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

But that would be one.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

That would be one. That would be one, right? I mean, I I really think I think healthy relate romantic relationships, marriage relationships, common law relationships involve both parties have having rich and full lives that are outside of one another. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Individually, and then one and one equals two.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yes. Like it's not all about the couple or the family. It has to be about, and I feel like, okay, so then tying that into again our own personal observations is again at this stage of life, that's why all of our friends are playing mahjong and pickleball, and we're doing we're reinvesting in our own friendships, the friendships that maybe came along through children or neighbors or old friends, but you're reinvesting, that's an interesting point. Is he also doing that? Who knows? Yeah, not always. And if and that's the same, it's the same way as you're saying having your own therapist and making sure you want to know what you want out of your own life. Because that's a I also think that's such a that is such a fair and smart way to approach it. Because if you go to the couple of counseling first and one of you have done all this introspective thinking and figuring out, and the other one it hasn't, then it's unbalanced. But if you haven't done any of that thinking at all, you You're not bringing much to the table.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I mean, listen, I'm not I it it like it's a very privileged approach, of course. Because like who can afford three therapies? 100%. Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

A divorce is not inexpensive.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

So I mean it's cheaper, it's cheaper than divorce. And also, um, you know, like use utilize your benefits or like even if it's like yeah, you're you know, you have like a something, you just explore options to do some of that homework on your own if you're in a situation where there aren't a whole lot of extra resources to have three therapists. I get it. It's uh it's a lot.

Choosing A Separation Process

SPEAKER_02 17:50

So I I'm so happy and I'm reminded why you and I worked so well together because we're very aligned on a lot of things. And I I think we both came to the table with it, our just approach worked. And I just think that's so important for people who, if you go down this path and you decide to partner with someone who's gonna help you through one of the major decisions of your life, and though people will understand it in listening to you, Christine, um, that you need someone who has the same point of view as you, right? Who can help you through it, but also challenge you. Um, but I agree with that wholeheartedly. I just think it's it's it doesn't happen. I've so many friends who are going into the now couples counseling and none of that work. Um, and and to your point, it can happen in different. I've always said that. Like for me, it started with books and podcasts through to coach, through to and then I'm ready. So I think that's a really great takeaway for people as um a validation of a theme that Anne Marie and I have talked about, but it's great to hear your point of view. So people come to you now and they'll have oh, well, we we always do it. Call Christine, at least have an initial conversation. Um, and there's some themes. I'm assuming maybe this theme around this idea of therapy prop might come up because they're telling you maybe some of the things they go walk through. But maybe this is a good transition into the types of paths people can take um and and kind of your growth within your business. Maybe you can tie that in and give us a window as to how things, because for me it's been a few years, so I'm sure things have changed too. And your path might not be the path that everyone takes. 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Um, first, as like a divorce lawyer, we have to talk to people about like, are you sure you want to separate? Yes. Have you tried therapy? Have you tried counseling? That's part of that's part of what the conversation needs to be when someone decides that they wish to retain counsel. But when I do an initial consultation, first of all, I don't give specific legal advice at a consultation uh because I don't know all of the facts. I am hearing one side of the story. I have no documentation. And so what I do is I, you know, I do you have kids? Do you have property? Do you work? Do you have a pension? I sort of gather all of those facts. And then the general information that I provide to people at an initial consultation is tailored to those set of facts, right? Because if you don't have kids, I'm not gonna talk to you about parenting. That's a waste of your time and money. But if you do have kids, I'm gonna tailor the general information I provide to you about children and what ages and stages they're at. Do they have special needs, that kind of thing, right? Are they close to university age? Do we need to talk about financing university, that kind of stuff? Um, so I always do general legal information and then I always, always, always cover process. Because I say to people, the second biggest choice you make after you decide to separate is how you will separate. People think you have to run off to court, but you don't. Particularly if you have a level of cooperation between the two of you, if you have younger children, court is very expensive. Um, you are at the mercy of the scheduling of the court. Just because you are ready to go to court doesn't mean the court is ready for you because dates are booked in some instances four, five, six, seven, eight months down the road. Um so court is not always necessary. Court is or can be necessary in situation in certain situations. If someone is doing something that they ought not to be doing and doesn't have any care about what the right thing to do, like they're taking money out of a joint account or running up a line of credit or threatening to abduct children, um yeah, you probably need to court because you need a judge to stop that. You need a court order. Um, if there is coercive control, domestic violence, power imbalance, you may need to consider court because the person on the other side may only respond to that level of authority. So court might be your only option. But if court is not the only option, explore other options. And I and I do that and I talk about process. So, you know, you can just negotiate. If you each have counsel, you can have a negotiation. Sometimes that involves what we call lawyers call four-way meetings. So both lawyers, both parties, we have an open, honest dialogue, and you know, we try to resolve the issues. And then a sep typically a separation agreement is sort of the final product before the divorce. Um that's one of the common. That sounds like it would be the most common. I would say that's probably the most common.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Conversations.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah, you just work with the lawyer and you do the financial disclosure. And financial disclosure is really, really imperative and important. A lot of people want to step that sidestep that. It's a bad idea. So once you have the disclosure and you have a conversation and you're exchanging parenting plans, what have you, then yeah, there's you can have a negotiation. Sometimes the negotiation stalls on one or more than one issue, in which case, explore mediation or mediation arbitration. Mediation is a dialogue, it's neutral facilitating of a resolution. So the mediator is a neutral facilitator. They are not telling you what to do, they are working with you to uh craft a resolution that's uniquely yours. So the parties are responsible for the resolution. Um, but they are typically more senior, family counsel in a lot of instances. And they you can either meet all in on, you know, across the table from one another if there's high levels of cooperation, there's not like a restraining order, that kind of thing. And it's not gonna the conversation's not gonna deteriorate. And you again you talk issue by issue by issue by issue, and you craft an agreement through a mediation process. Sometimes that takes one session, sometimes it takes multiple sessions. Um, but it's a cooperative, collaborative process.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

So you could do mediation in lieu of negotiation, or if you have an issue from negotiation, then then you take it to me.

Court When Safety Is At Risk

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, it's kind of like a yeah, it's not they're not like mutually exclusive. You can do negotiation and then mediate, or you can just go straight to mediation, or you can just do negotiation, or you can start with negotiation and then mediate certain issues, or even all of the issues if there's an impasse. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

What is arbitration? You said that. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah, arbitration is a private process that gives you a result. So in a mediation process, the mediator is not deciding for you, but in an arbitration process, it's like a private trial, essentially. So you're paying, you're paying for you get an award, you don't get an order, but there's they're making a decision for you, and that is binding, right? You're bound by the arbitration award. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

And it's it's private. Um, I'm a collaboratively trained lawyer. A lot of lawyers are collaborative in their approach or they're cooperative in their approach. But if you're actually gonna do collaborative law, I just did air quotes for people who are listening. Um, if you're gonna do collaborative law, you need people are usually trained. There's something called a participation agreement that's signed between the parties, and you, it's like a contract that you are going to work together to resolve your issues outside of litigation. You're not gonna start litigation, you're not going to threaten starting litigation. And if collaborative law breaks down, you are not permitted to take the lawyer, because this is where we get the buy-in. You're not permitted to take the lawyer you're working with to the litigation. You need to switch lawyers. So that kind of like binds you to the process because you don't want to switch lawyers, right? Collaborative law is an all cards on the table type approach. It's typically a series of meetings. We discuss issue by issue. After each meeting, if there's resolution, there's a report generated, it's called a progress note that talks about the progress reached in that session. And it's an interest-based approach, not a rights-based approach. Rights-based approaches are typically um mediation, arbitration, litigation, where it's like, these are my legal rights. And an interest-based approach is a little bit different. We don't forget the law. The law is always the foundation. But we're looking at meeting the interests of the parties and the and the family. And then once all of the issues are discussed and resolved, the parties go, the lawyers go back and they craft a resolution, which is typically a separation agreement, and they make a joint recommendation to their clients. This is what we think the separation agreement ought to look like based on the decisions that we've made throughout this process. So your collaborative do you you you don't represent both?

SPEAKER_02 26:37

They eat you each still have lawyers. Okay.

Mediation And Mediation Arbitration

SPEAKER_00 26:41

And then in the collaborative process, although you can have these you can have these professionals in every sort of every avenue that you choose, but collaborative law is wonderful because you can also have a financial professional. They're like called a financial neutral, or a family professional, they're called a family neutral. And these are people who are either skilled in family dynamic to create a parenting plan or the financial aspect of things. So to help you with your financial, they typically don't draft a financial statement. They create a net family property statement that's going to help determine who owes whom what property-wise. They help with support calculations, but they're kind of experts in their field and they assist, they those people work for both parties. They're neutral in their evaluation and in their assistance. But you can have family professionals and fine and uh family or uh financial professionals in any avenue that you choose. They're just very common in the collaborative, uh, the collaborative process. And I would say that if you're going to do a collaborative process and you have a gray divorce, notwithstanding that your children are no longer, you know, subject to a parenting schedule because they're maybe in their 30s, if you're untangling a marriage that's 35, 40, 45 years in, I'd want a family professional helping me unwind that dynamic. Yeah. And I've I've used family professionals in situations where it's a gray divorce because they have really helped facilitate and moderate those discussions, soften the edges of some of those challenging conversations.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

When you think so, two questions. You say gray divorce and you're saying 35, 40 years. We were using the term in kind of like age, I think it was age 50 and above. So really grade divorce could still be like 25 years or whatever, even though we don't think of ourselves as senior citizens. We're not senior citizens. Yeah. But like I think we were using like your divorce, Tanya, as an example of grade divorce.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yeah, but I think maybe grade divorce might skew a bit older.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Oh, a little bit older. Like kids are completely out of the house. So another thing you said, I think this is really interesting because we've talked about like you referenced, you know, sadly when it ends, which obviously any ending of a long-term relationship is sad. But if there's like an uncoupling and a recognition that this no longer serves either one of us, and we're grateful for the time we had together, particularly, if there's like a maturity, it sounds like that collaborative approach, although sad, but kind of helping one another move to the next step in a mutually satisfying way. Like that sounds like the most pleasant of an unpleasant circumstance. Yeah, I haven't been through it, so I I don't know, but it's it sounds like more pleasant horrible stories you hear.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

I would say that for collab, I think collaborative law can be wonderful for parties who are capable of it. Not everyone's gonna be capable of a collaborative process. And so if you want, because if you have someone who, you know, I can't tell you, like, I'm a family lawyer, like literally every single one of my clients tells me that their partner's a narcissist. And I was like, who diagnosed them? Um, my therapist. Have they ever met them? No, that's not a diagnosis. Um, but we hear that a lot. But like there are people who have tendencies, they have tendencies for sure. Yeah. So like sometimes people who have like in a personality disorder might be challenging to be in a collaborative process. If there's abuse, it might be challenging.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Of course, and emotion, just deep emotion in its most basic sense, yeah, is tough.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I would imagine even if you both want it, I can imagine it would still be brutally hard because you're unpacking years.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Years, years. Are you seeing that grow more in your business? Like if you look at are you seeing a trend? Like as I maybe a younger generation's a little bit more open.

Collaborative Law And Neutral Experts

SPEAKER_00 30:46

I've done it, I've done both. I've done collaborative law uh and mediation with uh gray divorce, I've done it with younger families. I think it all depends. There are there's no age for your evolution, right? Like you know, there are people who are 70 and aren't, yeah, they're not really evolved. And there's people who are 35 and they're like super evolved and progressive in their thinking. Um, you said something in the podcast, Tanya. You said that when people were like, Oh, I'm so sorry, um, you were like, Hey, I'm not, I had a successful marriage. Yeah, that's what I meant too. Yeah, I tell clients that all the time. I tell my friends that all the time. You know, I Christine.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah. We need no more people who are encouraging that narrative because it's true.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

It's so true. What do you mean? You had 15, 20, 25 years of, you know, building a family, sometime, you know, creating children if you chose to have children, um, companionship, love, respect, um, you know, financial growth. And I think it's okay to say that, right? Like if you ended up better financially because you were working together as a financial team. Yeah. Um, all of these things are success. We need to. I always say to people, success does not mean forever, right? Yes. That's a quote. Yeah. Success can be like 20 years, 25 years, 15 years, 10 years. Um, I think we have to change the way we we view uh success. Success can be saying finally, you know what, this I'm not prepared to be abused anymore. I'm not prepared to be emotionally ignored anymore. I'm not a pair prepared to like be doing all of the emotional and psychological labor in connection to our children or this relationship anymore. And understanding that and saying, I choose something different. That's success. Um, I hate the term failed marriage. I hate it. It's ugly.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

It was I get rid of it. I love that. And I'm I'm that's gonna be my next tattoo or something because I agree with you. I just think that was such the biggest um, that was the every question, every approach, every conversation was along that theme. And I just always looked at it so much so differently. And I think it's more and more. That's why I think the term uncoupling becomes a little bit more of a uh word because it feels less negative, if you will. It's just natural that that can happen. And I like what you said about success.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

It it can be successful is no longer the 50 or 60 years, it just can't be maybe and maybe a failed marriage is actually a marriage that stays together, but for the wrong reasons. Well, there you go. You have a lot of those stories as well, right? Like, yeah, so or or maybe a successful marriage is that they stay together but they choose their own lives, like but they financially and they live together. Like, yeah, I'm sure like we nobody knows what goes on in anyone's house. You have no idea what and everyone's tolerance is different, circumstances are different.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

So, Christine, if you and that then leads me to again, uh I I love everything you're saying about you know, what are some of the challenges maybe or the things that you maybe leave people with? You said you ask a series of questions, you go through it, but that's a lot of the questions I feel you must get it so much if you introduce yourself as a family lawyer, a divorce lawyer, etc., where people look to you as what should I do? Right? Which I know you would never tell them necessarily what to do, but what may be some key considerations that you find you're on.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

They're dabbling with the idea.

Kids Do Not Need Conflict

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Yeah, that you often bring up. I I don't know if I'm explaining it right, but that kind of idea.

Financial Records And Reality Testing

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yeah, I would say so a few things. If you have I sometimes I hear from people, friends or consults or what have you, you know, I'm I'm planning, I'll leave when the kids are whatever, done high school, whatever. So the social science research tells us that children are impacted by conflict. Conflict is sometimes yelling at each other. Sometimes, very unfortunately, conflict is you know, people putting hands on each other. But yes, conflict is silence. Silence. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to jump in. No, absolutely so the parents who give each other the silent treatment because that is conflict. It is like so many messages, right? About respect and courtesy and kindness and love when there is silence. So I say you can have two households where the parents they don't live together anymore. And we talk about children have one life and they live it in two houses, and they can live that one life in two houses where there are parents who are not in conflict, but they don't live together anymore. And those children are going to be okay. So if you're if there is conflict in your house, whatever that conflict looks like, and you're sticking around, I did our quotes again, to for the sake of your kids, don't because you are actually harming them. Okay. So I tell people that. And then there's like practical considerations. Banks hold on to records for seven years typically. Okay. So if you came into the relationship with something of significance, except for a matrimonial home that remains a matrimonial home on the date of separation because the law recognizes or looks at the matrimonial home that remains the matrimonial home on date of separation differently. I'm not gonna necessarily get into that. But if you come in with like a business or an RRSP or a significant investment, if you're not yet married and you're gonna get married, take a little screenshot on the day of your wedding and save that in a safe or a folder or what have you, because the law recognizes deductions when we are dividing, when we are dividing net family property. So keep a record of that. If you are thinking of separating, and maybe you're at six years of marriage, go to the bank and say, Hey, can I have the statements from the date that I got from this date, which is the date I got married? And if you're like 14 years in, take a look through your records. Can you gather? Do you have a bank statement? I always tell the story. I had a client who said she had been married for 45 years, and she said, I know I had five grand when I got married. And I looked at her and I said, There's no way you can prove that. And the next time I saw her, she came in with the shoebox and she had every single passbook for 45 years. Wow. Back when they had passbooks. Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

I remember a good passbook.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Yeah. So she she could prove that she had a date of marriage deduction of exactly$5,000 on the date that she got married.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

So I would say, like Is that like equate to today's value?

SPEAKER_00 37:52

No, it's fixed in time.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

But it's just that's her that was, but she knew she had that.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Yeah, she wanted that$5,000. She wanted that$5,000 deduction and she got it. So I love that. You know, the information from when you got married, both debts are important too, especially if people have student debts, and your spouse will remember you had student debt. So just if you if you can gather that information, if it's like if if separation and divorce is an inkling to you, that would be really helpful. That's good advice. Um conflict for children. I am not I'm a I maybe I I don't think people should strategize forever in s in secret. I I especially if you have respect and love for the person on the other side. I think if you are starting to think about it and it is a serious consideration, once you have decided that that is the end for you and you're not interested in therapy or what have you, I think you probably you need to start communicating that. I think otherwise you end up in situations where one person has processed and they're like done. And then the other person's like, what? Yeah. And there's all this catch up, and you deal with that catch-up, the hurt, the frustration, the overwhelm, the sense of betrayal. And it can really impede progress in the separation. Yeah. So yeah, sure, gather your date of marriage deductions and your your, you know, your debts that you had. Keep in mind that conflict is really harmful to children. Um, but I don't know what else you do to prepare except gather your financial documentation. That's usually what I've said too. You know, that's really yeah, become aware. If you're like the person who doesn't know about the finances, make yourself aware of the finances so that you're not.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

That was a big point. I think we talked a little bit about it because I find that is a lot of the conversations I'll have with my friends, right? My that's one of my first questions. That was a benefit from my standpoint. I knew where everything was. So it was, I knew how much easier it was to negotiate fairly and to know the situation. Um, but I think for women, and and I I like to think maybe as age demographic moves, maybe younger women will be more um into their finances. But I have a lot of friends who aren't sure where everything is. And that can be scary. Um, you need to be very aware. Now it all comes to fruition, right, Christine? Like at the end of the day, everything is divulged. Um, but my question was gonna be I think the biggest challenge too is if you're not as aware of your current finances, it's hard for you to imagine what is required um post-divorce. As you were one as an individual, you were very, that was one thing I really um valued from you, a lot of things, but you were very clear to say, Tanya, you're underestimating X. Tanya, like, don't like I've been here before. I know of people who've come back to me, and I don't want that for you. So you need to really kind of consider that. I could imagine that that's a big part of the conversation. People don't really get how much it is now to live on your own, regardless of your child's or spousal support.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Yeah, a few, so a few things. I mean, like if you're looking to, you know, maybe keep a home and if you're if it's a jointly owned property, no one is obligated to sell to you, right? There's the partition and sales act that comes into play. So, but if your spouse is prepared to sell you your the, you know, to sell their interest to you, do some, you know, like do a mortgage calculator online, but really, you know, speak to a broker. Now, listen, in this day and age, uh a bank, a tier one lender is they'll they're like, it's like chicken and egg. They always want to see a separation agreement. And you're like, I'm nowhere near a separation agreement. We're still in the process of negotiating. But if you have a good relationship with your bank, like an idea of what you might qualify for, that would be really helpful. There are financial professionals both at the bank and also, you know, neutral family professionals that we use in the collaborative realm who will be able to like sit with you for like a fee and be like, okay, this is the kind of what your budget looks like moving forward. Really important if you are a gray divorce kind of person and you're already both retired, right? Like, sure, oh my gosh, this pool of money that we had counted on together is now going to be divided in two. So, what does that look like for me with my, you know, old age security and my CPP benefits, et cetera, et cetera? So inform yourself financially about what things look like. And I will also say that. That's a huge thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

I didn't even thought about that. I would have, yeah, because we're not at retirement age, but we're not that far from it. And you think of so many of our friends, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Wow, I never even thought about that friendly. And sometimes the person who is leaving the relationship, whether or not there has been infidelity, because that is sort of another layer of guilt for a lot of people. Although, like, I don't judge, right? I people, things happen, life is long, marriages are complicated. Um but sometimes the person who's chosen to leave, or maybe someone has done something that they're not necessarily really happy that they've done, they're like, they're like, I want to make the other person happy. I want to try to fix this somehow. And the way that they think they can do it is by like leaving money on the table or being more generous. And what I would say to that is number one, you need to expect that that will fix nothing, that the person on the other side is still like, no, I still hate you. I you ruined my life. I'm very angry with you. Thanks for the money, but I still don't like you. Yeah. That can happen. It could have no effect. And second, is that will you be okay with that in two, three, four, five years in the future that you've done that? You've either left money behind or you've been extra generous and also it didn't solve the problem that you were hoping to solve with that act of generosity. So just be aware of that because and I I do that a lot with people. I like, you know, reality test. Yeah. Um I I try to reality test like, okay, that's a really nice thing, but are you going to be okay with that in the future? That choice.

Prenups After Divorce And Repartnering

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Yeah. And I think that's a very important just for anyone to um, and and again, it's not like I've worked with several lawyers in my past. I I was very lucky that I found you. Um, we had worked with you, et cetera. So I consider myself very lucky. Um, because you need someone who is reminding you of those important things. Cause you're right, even though I was, you know, leading the charge on all aspects, and most there were moments where I need you to remind me of the reality. Um, so that is really important for anyone who's, you know, thinking about that. You just you have your friends in your life who can be like, it's okay, it'll be fine, but you need someone at this point who's gonna tell you the truth, whether you like to hear it or not. Um, and I think that was a really important um aspect of value you brought. Um, I'm just conscious of time and I know that you're busy. Yeah, like let's I was like question and then anything that maybe Christine had in her mind she wanted to share to give her an opportunity to do that.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

So I have a question for all of our friends that have gone through a separation and now they're restarting their new lives, and maybe they're in a new relationship or like a common law situation. So, like, what are the like what are the steps or the watch outs for them? Because like you've gone through it, you've separated, and then often people you know you're kind of back in it, but maybe in a slightly different way. Like, how can they protect themselves?

SPEAKER_00 45:46

So, the best way to protect yourself in a situation where you're perhaps separate, you've separated later in life, you've already divided your your property with your former spouse, and now you have a little nest egg or you bought yourself a home or whatever the case may be, you may not want to divide that in half again.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

That's what I mean, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:04

So the best protection is a an agreement, a contract. We call them either cohabitation agreements or marriage contracts. Uh but people, because we watch American television, we'll call them, we'll know them as a prenup.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Uh, we don't call them prenups, we call them marriage contracts or cohabitation agreements. But get your, you know, speak to someone and it's not gonna cost$3, okay? Because you you people are they go to a lawyer and they're like, I would like a cohabitation agreement or a marriage contract, and I would like to pay$3 for that, please. I'm protecting$1 million worth of assets, and I want to pay$3 to do that. It's an insurance policy, so you're gonna have to pay to make sure that it is done properly, that you have all of your financial disclosure. Use a lawyer who does family law. Don't spend$3. I'm sorry, no one wants to hear that, but that is the best insurance policy. And then the second thing to be aware of, particularly if you have children and you're gonna repartner, you want to make sure you probably that your legacy, your financial legacy with your children is protected. So speak to a wills and estates lawyer, speak to a family lawyer about that as well. Um, and then, you know, understand if don't just go to a real estate lawyer because real estate lawyers practice real estate. They don't do wills and sometimes they do wills as well, but very few real estate lawyers also do family law. But you may have to speak to three different lawyers, I'm sorry, to get a fulsome and comprehensive protection for what you are trying to do. And then also be aware that if you are gonna marry, again, like you're gonna remarry, take those snapshots in time of what you owned, what you owed on date of marriage, because that is going to help you and have conversations with your spouse because or your future spouse, because right now you are in a happy, you're in the honeymoon phase, you love each other. It's wonderful. And I say for people, particularly people who are going to get married again or gonna live with someone, um, and they're like, oh, I don't want to have this conversation. It's so terrible. I love them. They're gonna think I'm money hungry or that I'm I'm trying to protect. And well, no, the way to have that conversation is I love you so much now that I want to ensure that in the very unlikely event that something goes south, we have worked things out now in this moment of happiness and respect and kindness so that we aren't fighting. I love you so much now, I never want to fight with you. I certainly don't want to fight with you about money later on down the road. And that's sometimes an entry into a really difficult conversation. Yeah, that's well said.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Well said. Uh so that I didn't know some of that. Also, is your favorite number three? Because your threes of everything three therapists, three lawyers, Christine. Do everything in three numbers, even in decorating. Yeah, I agree with you. No, I was just like, oh, I love that. It's easy to remember. Uh, but I agree. I never even considered that you would, but that makes sense as an insurance policy. Absolutely, you need to do that. And you don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

And especially if people are leaving because they didn't feel that their life was full.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Because I feel like that's what we're hearing within our world. And then they seek out a way to make that full. A new relationship is very likely in there. Yeah. Yeah. And you've just been through whether that was a comfortable uncoupling or a terrible circle. You don't want to have that.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

And so in the same way, you're making changes in your behavior, likely, you're going to make big changes in this way. So that was a really good answer.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

That was a good answer. So, is there anything before we close it off, Christine? First of all, thank you so much. This um was educational, and I just remember why I very much enjoyed working with you. Well, I mean, the situation wasn't great. I get it.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

I'm sure people say that didn't thanks. Well, you want to feel like there's trust and there's like you're very real and and very practical, practical, but yeah, but also kind. Like I think you can you can hear the collaborativeness in like your your the baseline is kindness. You want to help someone, you don't want to just get something, you know. And the lack of judgment, I think, is important too.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Yeah, yeah. So is there anything you want to close off that you wanted to like? I want to say this or I hear this often. Two things.

Kind Strategy Beats Aggression

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yes, good. First is I can't tell you how many times someone will come to me and say, I want a shark, I want a pit bull. I'm not an animal, I'm a person. And um, like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Uh, I want a shark. They want someone to go get something from that other person and attack attack.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

And listen, uh that approach very seldom gets you the results that you want. You don't trap you, what is it? You don't trap flies with vinegar, you trap flies with honey, whatever the bees with honey.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Yeah, it's the kind approach. You're helping.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

You yeah, I mean, you need to be smart, you should be strategic, you should be smart, you should be informed, you should be educated, you should want a lawyer who is a zealous advocate, who's got your back, who's gonna tell you when you're wrong, when you're right, what to fight for, what to give up, what's important, what's not important. But the like aggressive, aggressive approach, whether I'm telling you in court, it does not really go over the way people think it's gonna go over. Judges don't typically like it. And we it doesn't get you in and out as quickly as a family lawyer would like you to get in and out. You want someone who is smart, practical, reasonable, and is going to work cooperatively and collaboratively with the other lawyer. That is gonna get you the best result, okay? Number one. And number two, if you find yourself in this situation, I tell people this all the time, and some clients listen and some don't, it's really hard. But try to give your spouse make generous assumptions about their motivation and their actions, right? So instead of being like, I know they are doing this because, and assigning like the most negative assumption and motivation to them, understand that they are just as scared, worried, fearful, uncertain, that they love your children as much as you do, and assign to them rather, try like exercise the muscle, try to assign to them positive assumptions, positive motivation, positive intentions, that they are coming from a place of good as well. Now, it's not always possible, and sometimes people are not coming from a place of good, but most of us are. And so when you start to view the other person not as your adversary, but as someone who is going through the the same trauma, because divorce and separation is trauma, yeah, then sometimes we just like see it from their perspective and we can actually get past the impasse.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yeah, those are two very, very good points.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Yeah, very good points. Because you started out as a partner with them. Yeah. I feel like maybe people would might forget that.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

Yeah, people forget it a lot.

Divorce Stats And Modern Marriage

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Yeah, yeah. Emotion's a crazy thing. Um, thank you, Christine. We can have one more quick question.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

What are the stats? What are the stats? Like uh, I feel like we grew up at a time of 50 kind of divorces split. Is it still that high?

SPEAKER_00 53:19

No, it it it was never that high in Canada. Our stats are always have always been lower. I I to tell you the truth, I don't know what it is, but it's not 50%.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

I feel like the world that's never been 50%. No, but I do feel in this stage the percentages are ticking up. And maybe it's because what you said before because of the lifestyle, like the life age. Like, if people were waiting for the kids to get out of school, they're getting out of school. And so all of a sudden, tick, tick, tick, tick.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Like it's and women who are more financially independent and can do that, right? Versus maybe the generation before our mothers, grandmothers. I think that's just which I mean, we have this conversation. This is for another podcast, as to what marriages are gonna look like for the younger generation. I bet though, you know, all of what you were saying, Christine, of what we need to consider going into now new relationships, like that's it's just gonna be set up in a much different way. So it's just clearly.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah, because because women, women are our roles, particularly in the workforce, have evolved exponentially in the last like even 10 years, 20 years. So yeah, I think what we what we view in a marriage, I think is I think it's already changed. I think it's I think it will continue to change.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

I said we're in the first time in human history where women no longer look to marriage, like need marriage for financial um stability or support or independence. Therefore, they're more single women than ever before. Because they're not they're looking for an emotionally open partner to go through life, they don't need him for his financial support.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

I women need partnerships. Yeah, women need partnerships, and in in it, and it has to be across the board. The partnership can't just be in one area, it really needs to be in all areas, particularly professional, professional women, women who are working outside of the home, the work women who choose to work inside the home. I respect it. It's so important, it's valuable, it has it has value. But I think women who are working outside of the home and they have the constraints and the guidelines and the time can the time pressures of that world need a partner at home. You can't you can't do both at a hundred percent. No, you cannot. It's not possible.

Final Thanks And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Yeah, yeah. And I think we're more aware of that. We don't, we're not, we're calling that bull as we talked about that was given to us before for sure. Christine, this was amazing. Yeah. So I think everyone's gonna uh this will be our top podcast because there's such good information. We really appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

I'm glad you took your left turn. I'm glad you took the left turn. Me too. That's a whole other thing. Yeah, like celebrating, you know, doing your thing your way and and developing your own practice in a way that can help people. So good for you.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

Thank you. You too. Good for you, both of you as well. Amazing. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Okay, hang up now. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 56:27

We're gonna stop by.