Midlife Mobility Planning for You & Your Parents

We talk with Dr Brenda Vrkjlan, an occupational therapist and mobility researcher, about how everyday choices like where you live, how you drive, and who you spend time with shape your health as you age. We zoom out to the sandwich generation reality, then zoom way in to the practical stuff that protects dignity and independence.

• Aging parents and the stress of starting the downsizing conversation
• Planning earlier to avoid the “double downsize” and rushed moves later
• Person-environment fit and why home design affects mobility and safety
• Loneliness as a serious health risk and why community keeps us resilient
• Building routines that create connection after kids leave home
• Driving as identity, access, and participation plus what makes it harder
• Small adaptations that matter like grab bars, non-slip mats, and smart habits
• Reframing aging with “perhaps another unexpected solution exists”

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Aging Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hello there. Hello, Tanya. Hello, Miranda. Hello. This is this is another fun one. We have another Laurier roommate on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Woo-hoo. Yeah, yeah. How many years, Amory? Oh. Well. A few. And we are going to talk about aging. So there we go.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

31. 32? 32 this September? 32. That's a real person. That's a real person.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Uh amount of time.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

September 1994. 32 years. I want to throw up in my bucket.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Like it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

It's good. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

I agree. I agree, Tanya. I think this is awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yes. Well, and yeah, so Tanya, it's fun. We get to meet each other's friends for this podcast. So and you've met Brenda another time too. But so we wanted to have Brenda on because we have been talking lots about midlife all through whether we're talking about our bodies, our minds, our transitions in life, all this stuff. And Brenda comes from a really interesting perspective from um an aging mobility perspective. And so why don't you introduce yourself, Brenda, explain maybe what you do for in this in this space so I don't get it wrong. And then we'll just jump in because we're not going to talk academic necessarily, but you have some amazing insights on this topic.

Brenda’s OT Path And Mobility Focus

SPEAKER_02 1:54

So yeah, uh, thank you. First off, uh yeah, beyond uh depending on what venue I'm in, I'm always happy to say I'm uh I know Anne-Marie Burton. Um right as part of my as part of my identity. Um no, we were just so fortunate, right, Anne-Marie and um to have had an extraordinary, I'm gonna say, undergraduate experience and that whole that whole foundation, right, is a huge building block. I'm a big fan of education. Uh I used to explain to children that, or when I come across like younger elementary age uh children, I say I did grade 24. Yeah, so it gets a good laugh, uh, usually from the parents who are listening in. Um and then the kid the children always look a little bit puzzled. But then I explain, right, that I went to university for four years. I uh then did um a master's degree, and the year I applied, uh Tanya, you may not know this, but occupational therapy turned into a master's degree. Um so I have an undergraduate degree in kinesiology, physical education is what it was called uh back then. Excellent building block to all kinds of health-related uh and beyond, I'll say like health-related careers and beyond. So then I did occupational therapy because health is complicated. I'm I'm happy to talk about that. Certainly as we age, uh things can become more complicated or complex, but I think the complexity is interesting. So it's about how we frame that complexity. Unfortunately, when we hear that word, it's often uh negative. Um, so I'm happy to talk about that. So occupational therapy went and worked for a few years as an occupational uh therapist and really appreciated that um that experience because then it um I realized that there were a few gaps in terms of the evidence. So uh being uh one of those people, curious, a curious growth mindset, all of those things. I went back to school and did my PhD. So that was four and a half years, yeah. And then you can do a postdoc, and then you can do a couple postdocs, uh, which is yeah, good or bad uh for women, actually. I'll speak to that maybe a little bit. Uh so uh yeah, 31 I finished my schooling um and uh landed in the world of occupational therapy. If you didn't know this, uh McMaster is it. So when I say the world, uh so if I go to Sweden uh and say to an occupational therapist, I'm from McMaster University, they actually know about it because a lot of the models that are used are from uh McMaster. So am I living the dream? I could be living the dream. You could be. Just like just like uh you guys, you know, um it's uh it's really lovely to do something you really care about um and uh are interested in as a paid, as a as you know, a paid employee. A lot of things we do that we care about, and I can bring up the term occupation is often related to paid to paid work. Uh, but we're talking about all the things that occupy people's time. And for the most part, that becomes really important to health and participation, particularly when we can have control over those things. Um, talk about what you did about. I was gonna say, uh, so as you can see, I'm nobody's called me shy. Uh Daniel, and this is gonna be, yeah, probably. I know neither of you, I don't think, are called have been called shy. Well, no, no, not how someone will describe me. So there's this should be a very interesting conversation. So my area of research uh is certainly Anne-Marie mentioned it, it's mobility, but uh uh you know, in in uh in academia, you do end up with a particular area of expertise. Um, and it was working clinically in Chatham, beautiful Chatham, Ontario. Oh uh, Tanya. Yeah, and I know Chatham, yeah. Yeah, it's uh down in the southwestern corridor there. For those listeners that are international here, uh yeah, in Canada, closer to Windsor, kind of sits in one of the most populated corridors of Canada. Yet things are very rural. So guess how we get around in the world? Uh, when I say that, uh, and I mean that physically in terms of our moving our bodies longer distances driving. Um so uh when people experience a method medical-related change, or I would uh see that in the hospital and ask, what do you want to get back to doing? What's important to you? Um, people, of course, going home was absolutely critical, and returning to driving then becomes part of that. Um, not surprisingly, a lot of people in the hospital tend to be older. That's when we see uh health-related changes um that can impact, right, our ability to do the things that occupy our time. Um, so yeah, so asking that question. So at that point in time, there was like uh not very many tools for us to use, clearly having a conversation, talking about people's uh how they manage their daily lives. So I've worked with the team and uh and have developed tools around how do we have that, and I'm gonna say at the end of the day, have a conversation. Um, you may be surprised to hear that, but that becomes, yes, we can have you know some of these fancy tools that have algorithms that then help us understand uh people's driving, but you know, everything everything starts with a conversation. You know this, your communication uh is specialist, really, in many ways. And I think I think the healthcare system has a lot to learn uh about how we communicate with people. We continue to do better, but um, yeah. And then I'm the director of a brand new program, Anne Marie knows that is a building block now. It's an undergraduate degree here at McMaster, um, and I'm happy to talk about that as a building block to perhaps a health-related uh pathway or career. So that's pretty cool, I'm gonna say, in a nerdy way. Um, yeah. So that's question.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

So, question then, if we think about, because it's it, there's I think so many avenues we can go down, but right away, I was just curious. So if we look at yes, older demographic of where where the aging, mobility, et cetera, if you were to speak to and when you talk to um individuals within their midlife, like our age now, what are some of the things that you might knowing what you know about what happens and some of the challenges and all the research you're doing, are some of the things that yeah, you yourself, you yourself are like, oh shit, I gotta get like, oh, I shouldn't swear. Not supposed to do that. Sorry, Brenda. Gets her attention though. Yeah, it does. I love a good sweet. Darn it, now we have to put a clause on the podcast. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Now that I'm a full professor, I actually throw the swear word every now and then. Nice. Uh in and then people like I know the students for one second. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yeah. So what are some of the things, you know, you we should know that you're like, and and we know in the media there's there's a lot being talked about about women, all of the things we could do. But maybe talk about some things correlation when it comes to what what you're doing research on that you're like, you know, did you know, or this this really is where we need to focus at 50 or 45 to 55 type thing?

Aging Parents And Hard Home Talks

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Yeah, you know what, uh, it's a great question. Um, and uh, and gosh, if I turn yeah, social media, there's a lot of sure, uh, a lot of noise, uh, we'll say, uh, about aging. Um, and uh it's interesting. So something that's top of mind right now is because uh reporter reached out to me in the Global Mail. I hope I'm not giving you know taking away his uh thunder. I'm sure I'm not, but um, but it what's interesting in that many listeners, Brenda. Like I love Brenda, but like don't worry. It's okay. Uh I know I said move to the CBC. The age, uh the age that we're in is actually, I think we worry about aging parents. Yeah. Um, so we're actually not uh we may already be experiencing some subtle, well, not even not so subtle changes in our bodies. Uh, I can speak to that, right? In terms of what happens around 50, hot topic. I call this like the sexiest research. Like I use those words because it's really got the attention of people, and so it should. And I know you've had uh others talk about menopause and uh that topic, but I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna speak about uh aging parents. Um, not only I I'm so grateful to have my occupational therapy degree uh in some ways. Um so my parents were living two hours away, for example, and how did how did we start to have that conversation um around where they're living, what type of house, how do we make sure that environment's set up, let alone uh you can talk about driving being one of the most sensitive issue issues for people. In fact, when we went in our research, when we're talking to older drivers, um, and and particularly those who you know um experience perhaps a sudden health-related change like a stroke or diabetes that then has some uh you know long-term effects on vision, thinking. Because one thing we don't realize about diabetes is actually can affect it's a multi-system issue, so it could affect our vision, it can affect the way our feet feel. Like a lot of people talk about, I can get really nerdy about neuropathy and use big words, but like our feet feel funny, are right, and of course, when you think about current vehicles and gas break, right, that becomes an issue in terms of where our feet are in space. Um, so all of that to say uh, yeah, having those conversations, very, very challenging. And um, and I think for my I could speak for my parents. So the the reporter was interested in the notion of of getting people to downsize. Yeah. Um, and how do you get people to sort of uh people um and that includes ourselves. We start, I think, as humans, as particularly as an occupational therapist, we think about the person environment transaction and our home, right? So we could think we're more advanced in terms of uh animals or whatever, but you know what? Like we are we are like having a home and we watch, right? Like this is actually part of our DNA, is to feel part of that home and then to be sort of having to move somebody uh right to a smaller place and and being part of that process or opening that conversation. So I think there's a lot of stress there. Um can I jump in? Yeah, and falling on the daughter, falling on the daughter a lot of the time. Yes, a lot of time, let alone if you have issues with your parents, not everybody gets along with their parents. I mean, Amory might think, oh, you and your parents are very close. We are close. I consider myself uh quite fortunate. Fortunately, we lost my dad, that also, right? So my mom had uh, you know, somebody that lived with her for 54 years. Uh now that person's not there anymore, right? Nobody's around. So, like, my goodness, like there's just a lot of questions, right? How do we support people uh to maintain their dignity? I'm gonna use that word, um, to you know, live where they live for as long as possible and sort of squeeze, right? Uh, that, you know, downward trajectory, literally and figuratively, health-wise. Um, so that I have a cool.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I have a question. This person environment transaction. Okay, so I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, something just went off in a brain. And I bet you that Tanya will already have thought this because you've made a downsized transition because you you're you separated and you had to make you deliberately made a change to a to a smaller house with less maintenance deliberately. But for those whose lives have not made such a dream dramatic transition, you kind of just sparked something in me of it's probably, and this is my hypothesis, it's probably healthier to make those transitions downward in your space earlier so that you're not dealing with it when you are 75 and older. And then you can maybe have the time to enjoy the process and the downsizing and make new friends and communities in the new neighborhood, or with I'm just I'm just you're not not making these transitions in a stressful time. Is that a good hypothesis? Yes, people in their 50s, 60s, don't wait till you're 80s and 90s.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

I know. We coined uh the reporter and I, I was like, I think I just coined a brand new word, but the double downsize. So I'm gonna say like this notion. Double downsize, which means like um that we we move to a spot and then we have to move to another spot subsequently very quickly, because already go doing that initial uh that initial move, Anne Marie, is a lot. So I've seen older uh couples, and again, we could talk about privilege here, uh, which I sure have and having control, right? And having the income to be able to do that and to make choices. So people move, but then they still actually need to move again. And in fact, if they thought about that initial move a little bit more carefully, um, they might have not made that first decision, right? In terms of where they had uh gone, which continued to be a little bit. I mean, I I like people say, get rid of stairs. Actually, uh, I don't agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Um, it's exercise, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Right, yes, and it's part of our everyday life. Now, do I believe in handrails? You bet I do. Sure. That includes across the lifespan. Stairs are very dangerous places for humans, actually, particularly going down. Um, we get distracted or whatever, right? And we just seem to uh sometimes uh flop down. I don't know if anybody's had the pleasure of falling downstairs.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Um yeah, I'm I was on Anne-Marie's again. If I I just think that's like for me, because um so everything Anne-Marie said about I consciously made that decision, but interestingly enough, like my parents consciously made the decision. 15 or so, they're 77 now, so they were probably early 60s. They downsized well before a standard downsizing would happen. And we were like, are you crazy? Because like grandkids and all of those things, but it came down to you know, foreseeing kind of the maintenance. I think, you know, with the housing market and everything that's happening, I do believe for us 50-year-olds, so again, remembering you're talking like 75 plus, right? When you're talking about the aging parent, right? So if you look back to us and as you said, daughters or what have you, I just think there's this reframing of what life can be well before, like in our 55 to 60, where kids have left, you know, what does that look like? Now, I I think there's a a difference in if the kids come back. I do feel like that's now what everybody talks about is I want a bigger s house because if all the kids come back, there's a place to go. I have a different view on that. But if you look at it purely from an aging standpoint and a freedom, and you've you're not gonna double downsize then because earlier on you've already downsized. A, you have like an age in sp in place. Yeah, you liquid you liquid, you liquefy liquidation in financing is interesting, like freedom to do other things, and then to remove the potential of double downsizing 15 to 20 years later, which puts pressure on your kids and all the people around you. I just think that's such an interesting concept and one that more 55 or as you are empty nesting, yeah, are you keeping the house? And if the only reason you're uh talking is like keeping it for the kids, they have to think about what you're talking about, Brenda. That like now's the time to do it.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Because yeah, it's because there's mobility, physical mob mobility, but I would imagine there's mental mobility. I don't know if that's a term. Is that a term? Mental, like cognitive I don't think what's the term.

Downsizing Early To Avoid Two Moves

SPEAKER_02 17:28

There's an there's definitely an adjustment. I will say one of my um one of my friends, I think she's 61 maybe, and so her dad, uh, you know, one has one of those uh palatial Oakville homes, older neighborhood, right? Bigger yard. Clearly, they're um uh a little bit more room there, and uh, and then they're tearing down those houses and building new ones, right? So the neighborhood's gradually changing. But what's interesting is unfortunately he lost, like she lost her mom, and he stays there in you know, 90. In fact, I think I got her balloons that were 60, and then she could you reuse the balloons and just turn the six upside down, so it was not that's amazing. Yeah, I was like, you can reuse this. Uh I've done that with my I did that with my dad to I was 48, and then we'd like turned it around. 84. Love it. Yeah, one of those. Um, but uh, but he actually had somebody move into the house with him, and you say, Who's that, right? Like, what's going on? So they interviewed people that were looking for uh places to live. Ended up being a single woman. I think she also had a change in uh marital status, financially couldn't afford, right? Very expensive. Yeah, so she was meant to also make a meal for him, like in the evening. My goodness, his quality of life, right? Through, right? Till again the squeeze uh for Ernie um was uh he was squeezed. I know, lovely. Uh was squeezed, right? Because she was there. Uh and um and I yeah, but they did go through an interview process, they went through an agency. I'm gonna say some of these things, and he stayed there, he did stay there, uh, wasn't interested, very active uh man overall again, yeah, till you know the whole body, the body does eventually unfortunately uh break down. Um, and uh, but did live a very good life. But you know, uh in terms of you know him being there, he needed somebody there. Now she wasn't bathing him or doing that's a very, very different thing, but still to have somebody there in terms of loneliness, uh right, it's very interesting. And this is year, like she was there for years.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Um let's talk about community because I think you were gonna I know you've got some opinions on community too, because I think if you are downsizing, there's a I mean, there's a neighborhood maybe you've lived in for a long time and you have your community there, hopefully. But if you move to another community, sometimes like my mom lives in a condo building in Burlington that is not a retirement building, but it definitely attracts seniors. So they have activities in that building, you know, playing cards and they have like a Christmas party and they know their neighbors a little bit more than if she moved into a street maybe that had lots of different age people. You know, they're all kind of in the same age and stage. Um, so community. So I mean, we all know that again at this age, we also really need community. But talk to us about the benefits of connection as you age, because I think that's a huge piece too.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

So there's this study, this seminal study. Uh, don't I sound nerdy? But like basically uh loneliness is equivalent to like smoking two packs of cigarettes a day. That I'm not even like this is like a fact. Uh, and that if we live on, yeah, if we live on our own, and that's the way to get I again, you know this from a communication standpoint. How do we then translate uh that in terms right into like the ever so that we understand how what that means, right? And clearly uh cigarettes now have a very poor uh yeah, a very poor social standing. Uh, but uh but this idea of two packs of a day, that's how bad it is on our bodies.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Um on our bodies, what in particular? Like is it our broken heart? Is it a is it a what is it?

SPEAKER_02 21:10

What is no, I you know, it it again I can get into the complexity, but I'll just say um, yeah, our how do we say our uh yeah, like our our health system, in fact, we're more prone to um so we're not as resilient? We're not as resilient, like we're we're more prone. So even though like mixing with people, right, you're like, oh, you're gonna pick up a flu bug or whatever. We actually like it's better for us to be around uh people.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

We become more um, yeah, we're just yeah, you're gonna have to help me find my words, but yeah, we don't know It's just I think also it's the the smallness, right? Like, so I think it affects every aspect of your body. So, first of all, you talk cog depression cognitively, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Like you are not it is all of these things, yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, your spatial ability, your purpose, let alone if you're not connecting, you're not moving. So then it moves down to yeah, so it's mental health, it's cognitive health.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Kenny, are you an occupational therapist? No, but we've got some good data, we've got some classes right now. I like the way you're thinking you're thinking about the whole picture.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah, well, it's a fear. I am this like I'm obsessed about this stuff, not from an occupational standpoint, but given um what I've seen surrounded. Me with aging individuals, I am hyper, hyper aware because I've seen I've seen what it's done. Yeah, what it's done. Exactly. Yeah. So when you see it and you're self-aware enough, everything I do now, and someone said it, and I know I'm not, it's not original, but like everything I do now is for my 70-year-old self. Like everything. Because and that I think once you switch that mindset and realize that so yeah, I I'm with you. And I think COVID, I mean, COVID alone in the idea of how isolation and loneliness can entirely flip your life around is yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Zoom, Zoom doesn't cut it as much as we're watching right now. I said do not give, yeah, do not yeah, I can't stand it. So my my humanities colleagues say, I want, yeah, can we meet in 3D, which I appreciate. Only the humanities can like say, yeah, uh, these kind of jokes. So I always give uh yeah, give cred to my uh uh to the people that come up with these uh that's really important.

Community And The Health Cost Of Loneliness

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Hugely important. And for this audience, again, I'm gonna we're just gonna bring it back to those listeners out there because our themes like it's so very it supports in a different way this idea that when you have empty nesters, your life revolves around your kids. You're going out. We had this whole thing many podcasts ago where I was like, Anne Marie, I don't I don't leave my like I don't have to leave my house. Like I have to consciously say get out of the house because I have no kids to drive. I don't really have to do everything is online. Like, and uh we got responses back from like friends of mine be like, yeah, five, five, seven days for me. Like, I'm like, if at three days I haven't left the house, I consciously leave. Yes. Like, so you intentionally, it is very easy. We're getting into uh once your kids are gone, and if you don't have that purpose or intention, there is no reason to leave your home. No, no, the community is so important, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Uh exactly, and that needs to be, and you have to work at that, which I know you've talked about. Yeah, you have to just like a muscle, that's what they use the analogy, is you also have to work on on friendships. And Anne-Marie knows, like there was a time where I was not in contact with my Laurier friends, probably for a number of reasons. Um, fortunately, they did, uh they never gave up on on Brenda, and there was a reach out related to one of the one of the reunions, and uh, and you know, nobody asked where are where you where you've been. It was almost just an acceptance back into the fold. And I I've really appreciated that, uh, Amory. Not surprisingly, Amory seems to be the hub of the wheel. Um, whether she likes it or not, that's her gift, and she must use it wisely. Um but uh yeah, and when people have those gifts, right, then um, yeah, I I you know, as I as we joked at the start, uh, you know, nobody's called me shy, but at the same time, um uh yeah, I have to I I do have to work hard, like the end of you can call the end of the week, uh, right? You're but if I go out on Friday, I'm much better for it. So in fact, even this year I said I am going out on Fridays. So last you know, on Friday we went to the symphony with my mom. Oh uh just in Ancaster around the corner. We like the Ancaster Center for the Arts, and the arts are very important uh in my family. And I even said to myself, if my mom wasn't here, I'm sure I could find a friend, but I was like, I could go here by myself. I could like there are things I I've said to myself, Kenny, too, which I'm really appreciating what you're saying, yeah, is this notion of like I gotta do this. Where does that come from? I don't know. Um that you have to sleep right because that also affects uh right. So we have like there's a lot of work that has to be done. I've I've I I'm I'm seven days right now clear of having my phone uh distance from myself in my bedroom. I know that sounds, but I had to do that away because last Sunday I heard on one of my favorite shows called Sunday morning. Um, guess what day it's on? Uh it's CBS. But it's an interesting heat, there's this short clip about boredom, and actually, how are you creative? Is actually your mind needs to wander. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

And if you don't let it wander, Anne Marie talks about this a lot and she's gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

If you don't let it wander because of the the this or because there's like uh yeah, my my my you know uh my friends write our text message away, but is there something about just sitting and doing this?

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Um the doom scrolling is a real issue. Like I have witnessed like doom scrolling like I've never seen before again. I get like super hyper-focused when I see like a really bad habit, like in myself too, but like in others, I'm like, wow, there's such an automatic response to that to pull yourself out is really hard. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

No, I've I've reached in the night right now. I've realized through this week I was reaching in the night for my phone. Um, now I'm not gonna say like I got up and like what time? Like, so I have my old grade eight alarm clock. I need to get an alarm clock. I called it that. I know I found it. So yeah, like I I sound righteous right now a little bit. Um, but it's because I I read something and a person that was speaking about it is comes from a good source, okay? So this isn't like uh bullshit 101 here. Um, like this is like a good source saying, look, like this is not good for you. We know what's happening in Australia, uh, right, in terms of the uh Europe as well, that saying limiting social media for kids. Well, what does that mean for us? Yes, uh, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:12

So And that that doesn't replace the connection that we get in from in real life.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Back to that.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

So if you can, so I'd say I'm recapping. I think we need to set some good habits for ourselves and our own connections. So you need to so and I would imagine this also helps with your mobility. So like I try on Monday nights to go for a walk with a friend who texted me today and reminded me, and I'm like, I can't go to but she reminded me. I know, and I and but every but on Mondays we're gonna do that. Okay, then we're gonna play mahjong or we're gonna go play pickleball, or you're gonna do like putting those good routines, which are like good hygiene, into our connections, and then if they can be activities that are maybe a little more mobile, I would imagine that's helping us.

Habits That Beat Isolation And Scrolling

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Yeah, like I I didn't do physio because I'm gonna say and Henry knows I'm sporty spice here, right? Like I like I am a sporty girl. You gotta identify with one of the spice girls. Is this like a joke? I don't know, but uh right now. No, you don't have to identify with one of the spice girls. Um, but uh but uh yes. This is a middle-aged podcast. So you're good. We all got you from that. But um uh But you play tennis. Exercise, yeah. I do, but exercise has to be hidden for me. Like it has to be inside. So maybe physio, I'm gonna say again, uh, you know, why did I go to occupational therapy? Was because there was more this idea of seeing the whole picture to your point, Tanya, about the mental side. Uh, when you talk about habits, how do those form, right, in terms of our daily life? And then how do we disrupt sometimes if we're into a poor pattern? Um, I will say, like I've spoken to kids, I went to a grade eight class and was talking about finding a job or find, you know, doing something you really enjoy and how important that is. And if we have a job, and I'm gonna bring up, you know, that is not meaningful or has a lot of challenges, then we must have something in our leisure, a leisure occupation that then right we're working towards uh to make sure, Henry, to your point, that is meaningful. So I do like when my exercise is hidden in a tennis match or a basketball game, like it has to be, and I'm not playing basketball anymore, but tennis seems to be much better. Uh, but then you know you have an injury. Here we are. I told Henry, like my shoulder hurts. Um yeah, then I exactly then I yeah, one of your uh one of your uh guests also talked about that, but like how right then what do I do? My goodness, I'm really like all my tennis friends. Well, I can still go watch, okay, and then I have to do my like physio exercises, right? Um, but I have to keep moving. That's what's so interesting about an injury is actually one of the arthritis, which is very common, right, with age, is actually more like motion is lotion or whatever they say. Yes, I know, but I again it needs to be hidden for me in the occupation, right? And probably like even my when you say occupation, you mean accidents? Everything that yeah, everything that occupies our time. And uh, and I will say, like, going to the bathroom is something that's it goes right from that. But uh, so how do people get it on and off the toilet? I'm sorry, we need to talk about these things.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Oh my god, can we talk about those things? Because that's mobility. Literally, you go to the washroom and you have to do a number two, and like I have torn something. Like, it is literally I think literally torn something. I think people picked it up, Brenda. But legitimately, I talk about this. These are all my favorites. Maybe I should have been in occupational therapy because I think I think too much about this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Well, it's all the small movements and it's you take for granted. Well, when Brenda was talking about driving, I was gonna interrupt, but I waited. Like when I think about, I think about driving, and I'm like, oh, okay, so you immediately go to vision. Okay, I want to be able to see, but then you forget about like can you even get in the car? Like, some people can't like so can you squat and then can you get out of the car? It's actually one of the most complicated or a frozen shoulder. You want to drive with a frozen shoulder? So, like putting a seatbelt on is fine if I'm driving, not as bad as the turning, the turning, not easy. So you have to at least we have like the backup camera now, but like there's a whole bunch of good adjustments, like when you talked about not feeling the petals if you have diabetes in your feet, but what if like they have a sprained ankle or a sore knee, or like it's not just I got too old to drive and my cog I didn't pass the cognitive test. Like, it's can I get into the car? Right, can I get out of the car? Like, I have a walker now. Can I still drive? Who puts my walker into the back seat?

Real Mobility In Everyday Activities

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Like, you guys, you guys are getting into the mess of it, exactly. And um, and then let alone we live in. So I started to do some work more in a rural area. And guess what? Rural is like Niagara region, right? Grimsby becomes the big city um once you move out there. And uh, and again, how do we get to the grocery store? How do we get to these things? So we can though, um, we can manage manage. Usually the best assistive device is another person, uh, right in a in a loose. Of course, we could have a higher uh toilet if we get back to uh, you know, uh literally getting on and off the toilet. There are adaptations we can make uh in the house, uh, certainly, and and we have to think and talk about these things, but you can also, right, there are people that will come pick you up those, but we do need to think about, yeah, when you break down an activity, and then why are we dry? Like, are we going to the Tim Hortons? It's probably not just for a coffee, it's to meet a friend, which we just talked about is hugely important. Um, so it's uh yeah, people will say when they lose their license, it's a black day in the calendar. This was the worst day of my life. Um, one of my colleagues who's a physician in Toronto, he's a geriatrician, you know, people say, I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna like, I'm gonna, I mean, I could like get very serious about this. Like, I'm gonna kill myself. I'm sorry for those people that are listening, and please seek uh seek your supports if this triggers something in you. But um uh that's how serious it is uh for people. So we have to make sure we support one another. And again, to your point, if we think about these things early, Tanya, Tanya, and it's a fine line between like narrowing, as we said, no stairs, uh, where am I living? Yeah, um, and that's where uh sometimes a professional like an occupational therapist can help. Because we're sometimes not like common sense isn't that common again, all these cliche statements. So having somebody that has your best interests, and here at McMaster, I'll speak about my students. I just talked to them last week about this issue, they were excellent. And I said, you know what? The first thing I'm gonna tell people at a meeting is I'm gonna tell them about you in this room because you care about people and you haven't even met them yet. So for the most part, I always have to qualify. For the most part, our students are exceptional because there's a way to have these conversations, Andrae and Tanya. There's a way that we can help problem solve and address these issues uh efficiently and effectively. Um, because you might find your own solution, uh, right, but it may not be the most efficient way. And that's where having somebody come and help you. A little bit like a, like a, you know, uh more of the, I'm gonna call this like the um, you know, people talk about life coaches again, very different in terms of our training because we really are focused on the to Henry's point, the activities of daily living.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

I think that's really good insight, again, for listeners, sandwich generation, right? If you're thinking about yourself in what you need to do to have as full of a life later on from a mobility standpoint. And then those of us who may or may not, you know, be working through with an older um with parents, you know, or I have an uh older aunt, um, she doesn't have kids, so it's the same idea. I love this. Uh, I never really thought about occupational therapists as that idea of okay, let's examine mobility of this. I mean, already I could put like a whole work session together in like what is your, you know, what is your ideal life start to finish start of the day to end of the day. How are you doing it now and what are the gaps?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

And I I like I've just made a mental note that that is well versus us making assumptions, yeah, and also having them be open to it, like small changes in their own house. So my mom has a condo, so flat, which is convenient, but there's two bathrooms in there. The bathroom that's connected to hers is a hugely high tub, big high tub. The bathroom that's down the hall, you know, 10 paces down the hall is an open shower. At 82, you one would assume she would use the shower. No, because she just got a bar installed because that is giving up. Good. So she's got a bar installed. I get that though. But it is a high, it's higher than an average tub. Like I find it hard to get into it. I can only imagine June cold and naked holding on to the thing, trying to get into this. But I and she'll not listen to this, so it's okay. I could talk about her. But my my my point is it's I respect her for the independence. I respect the fact that she doesn't want to give up these choices.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Even though the other choice is right there, and really it's it's like she won't allow her standards to drop. And I can imagine that that is a very common because people have been living a certain way their whole life, and they don't want to admit that they can't do something or that it may be risky. So they're gonna keep doing these things. So those are interesting, you when you talk about conversations, Brenda, like that's yeah, like I every person, I guess, responds differently, but they're not all gonna be open.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

No, no, and how we open a conversation. So to your point, um, I I actually like I think I I yeah, June's June's gonna hold on, and those people seem to like you, oh yeah, you want me to go to the no way, right? And actually, by even these people that are a bit like when and this has been um when people challenge the doctor on how much time they have left to live, it's very interesting. They don't agree with the doctor, they're less agreeable. They actually seem to live longer. Uh, right. So there is this notion of we can we're something you're so stubborn. Um, but actually, we could change that word to resilient or now there's a will to there's a will that is which is amazing. Awesome, but there should be some things that change. So my mom throw rugs, okay? My parents came from Europe. You see the last name here. Uh, we've got some Eastern Europe, beautiful rugs, oriental rugs, all over. No way my mom's getting rid of those. Guess what? A couple knee replacements, they're gone. And they haven't come back, they're rolled up, and it's and they're not coming back. So there has to be sometimes, uh, and I'm gonna say the OT daughter was like there's still a couple rugs around though, okay, that she's not willing to give up, but she doesn't have to. So she goes to the gym here at McMaster. We set her up. My dad was going as well. She actually here, my mom hears the word exercise. She lies down. Okay, this is Dad Hart. She's not, she's not an exerciser. Okay. She's like here. She goes this morning. She was at the gym twice a week. But guess what's huge at the gym? The bagel gang that she's met, right? That meets for coffee on Fridays. So they're there. There's a social element to that. Yes, I agree with that. So she goes for the bagel gang. She goes for the bagel gang. I think though the exercise is there, and and like I watch her get into and out of a chair. You know, I'm always uh doing reconnaissance on her. And she's doing very well. Uh right, but that's because she knows if she exercises, that means that we're off to Europe, where like, right? She's pr from Prague originally, beautiful city. I don't know if you've been Tanya. I haven't, I want to. It's already. Yeah, Anne Marie, not yet either, right? No. No, great city. Yeah, exactly. And Dagmar. And Dagmar. I like it. Yeah. So um in June, it'll be a like. Yeah, we actually, yeah, no, it's great. And my yeah, and I just follow my mom around. It's it's lovely because I don't know where I'm going, and that's like very easy. But um, yeah, and there's great Czech beer there. Uh but uh goal, she's travel. And she's like, she has her art group, right? So we, you know, we're driving to the art group, we're doing that. But it was interesting also to see my dad the lack of insight. So we come back to Anne Marie, that idea of insight and ability. Driving on the highway, I was doing all my dad's like, I can do this on the 401. Like, I'm like, right? So it sort of surprised me because he's he's pretty cool, he was a pretty cautious guy, but he was also starting to lack some insight too into his abilities around town, perfectly fine. Um, but at speed, and and again, yeah, I know. So I do uh there are ways to still get around. Uh and he would he would be perfectly fine, but he decided not to drive at night anymore. My brother's kids had uh hockey games at night, and he didn't know that wasn't his his jam. So again, we start to see these early changes. Why is that happening? I've seen that too. Underneath, and we go, oh good, they're not driving at night. Well, guess what? If we don't use it, we lose it. Again, another cliche uh saying here. So this is the fine, uh, this is the fine line between self-restriction, self-regulation, and pushing ourselves, June, over the over the edge of the tub. Uh right, and and so with my yeah, there are changes we can we can make where June could still uh you know use that bathroom because that's what she wants. Um, but do you know the non-slip thing's gotta go in the bottom of the tub there, June? Yeah, right? Or else uh and my friend Mary was like, I'm never having this in the bottom of my tub. Guess what? She has it, she wouldn't go in the tub without it.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

I I want that in the tubs. Same with my mom. Some tubs are super slippy, like I don't care how old you are.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

So some of so that's actually so some of these things we just should be making adjustments because why not? Like really, and I guess it's about giving up the control of just because I need a little bit of assistance does not mean I'm stopping or changing my life. No, and we can put some of these assistance in place now so that we because I mean, really, who cares? Who cares if there's a grab bar in our shower? There should probably be one. Why would you not have one installed?

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Why would you and here's the thing, if we do it for ourselves, it's easier to have that conversation with our aging parents, you know, where that's part of the double downsize too, maybe. Totally I'm putting it in my bathroom. Well, you put it in your body. Yeah, I'll put it in your two for one. Here we go. Um I just think, yeah, so much to consider, and uh I I think is so very important for who we're talking about and kind of as you know, people of our age, both on what we can do as we kind of see ahead, um and also what we can do to help our aging parents kind of through that um stage, which is not easy.

Driving, Dignity, And Safer Adaptations

SPEAKER_00 43:05

My big aha though is I don't have a group, like I have like mahjong, my book club, like I have social groups, I don't have a lot of activity groups, and I feel like that's an interesting, like, because I would go to the gym if there was a bagel gang. Yeah, I hate that's I hate the gym.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

I hate it, I absolutely hate it. Yeah, you and Debbie are together. So she's yeah, if you ask her even today, even though the bagel gang's there, she still hates the gym. Yeah, but she's gonna do it because uh I have the gym in my basement right now. I am able to motivate myself um uh in the morning. Yeah, I have to do it. Uh, and so right now that's working for me for the most part. There is that, like it does still feel like a huge chasm, be able to get over it. But um, yeah, no, I think this conversation like I really appreciate this con I appreciate uh left turn strategy. Uh I love the title. Um this is right, this is about thinking differently, um thinking differently, and um, and I've really appreciated the conversations new acronym that we read, pause.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

You would like it as in your work. Perhaps so the acronym is perhaps another unexpected solution exists. Pause. Did you tell me that? Yeah, I did tell you that. It's my brain, it's good. I'm reading it, right? Yeah, I I did tell you it was from the book. You also read that was I'm a doer, not a rememberer.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Liz Gilbert's book. It's from Liz Gilbert's book. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Yes. So perhaps another unexpected solution exists, which is a left turn, which is why I love it so much. But I feel like in this theme of aging for ourselves or aging for everybody, like perhaps another solution exists. Like perhaps I can't run, but I can walk. Perhaps I, you know, want to use the other bathroom. Like perhaps the idea of living in this five-bedroom. Being a bit flexible forever is maybe not the solution that's actually going to work for me. And I should think about what are those other solutions. Maybe that's really the options.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

The takeaway I want also for people of our age is, you know, if you were, if all of our themes is especially for women, if there was ever a time where it's a time to really think about what is important for you and what you need to do. And um this this just highlights that for me. It's like just don't do the thing that there's everyone expected. Like look ahead and and think left, like think differently. Um, take a left turn, uh, because like your life, I always say this, like our lives depend on it, like especially as women. Like it, it, it not doing things differently, you know, perhaps not looking at another solution, is literally killing us. Like I'll I'll say that. Like it is. And so we need to think about that. And if we lead by example, as we know, maybe our parents will come along, our kids will certainly see it. I just think it's there's a lot of power in the in the midlife women who can do it not only for themselves, but the for those people around. And I just, this is another great example of why it's so flippant important to not worry about what other people think or what you've always done.

Left Turn Thinking And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yeah. And to think about your capacity. I think that's a big one. Like releasing, making some of these changes actually might remove some of the responsibility and the weight of that responsibility and give you more capacity to grow in other areas. So maybe it's the smaller house that lives, gives you more time to then go to the gym with the bagel gang. Like maybe, maybe here's a here's a question. Okay, so we know a smaller house maybe is less work. When we're talking about vehicles, I was thinking about this as we're talking getting in and out of a car. Like, is it better? Like, if a toilet higher toilet seat's easier, is a car that's you go up into or down into, like higher up into, up into would be easier than a getting down car. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Gravity is our friend when we're getting out of a higher car. And uh, but you know, the fine line of uh God, can we please get rid of the F-150s?

SPEAKER_01 47:37

I was just gonna say the F-150s.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Well, these prices are I know that's gonna help. Yeah, but uh, but and we're you're on you're analyzing everyday occupations now. I'm so fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

If you think you're gonna buy a car, you're gonna look at the 10 years. So, what car is gonna take you for the next 10 years? Yeah, I think I needed a car that is gonna carry hockey bags. Do I still need a car that carries hockey bags? Do I need something else that's easier or has better, easier ways to see out the windows, like without turning so much? I don't know. Like those are really interesting things to think about.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Thank you, Brenda. Yeah, thank you for giving us those. I am gonna look at things slightly differently as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

I I thank left turn strategy for we're gonna outthank each other.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

We are gonna say last.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. No, I've really appreciated this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Thank you. We love I love it when you come. It's I think it's so much fun when when my worlds collide, it's like the best. It's just a lovely, lovely thing. So thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Are you stopping the We're gonna stop right now? Do you want to say anything else? No. Anything okay, okay. We're gonna just say thank you. Bye.