Living Left
We’ve always believed different works.
Tanya Garcia and Ann-Marie Burton built their careers in traditional advertising and digital marketing — then took a hard left into agency ownership to prove there’s a better way.
That turn became LeftTurn Strategy, and eventually, Turning Left — a podcast about leading, thinking, and creating on your own terms.
Now, we’re evolving.
Living Left is what happens after the pivot — when you stop chasing what’s next and start owning it.
It’s raw talk about reinvention, risk, and the freedom that comes from changing the path.
Follow Living Left for bold conversations by women for women on business, creativity, and comeback energy.
Find us on Instagram @living_left_
Because what’s left isn’t less.
It’s everything.
Living Left
Own The Crone And Ignore The Noise
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We sit down with Jennifer Powell to talk about why midlife can push us into bold left turns, from career pivots to divorce to redefining who we are after the kids grow up. We dig into uncertainty, identity, and menopause with a grounded focus on community, self-trust, and practical self-advocacy.
• Growing up in the early social media and mommy blogger era and what we lost when content became performative
• Gen X conditioning around ambition, motherhood, burnout, and the pressure to keep the peace
• Why divorce usually starts years before the paperwork
• Building tolerance for uncertainty and making intentional left turns
• Reframing fear with the question what if this is the best decision
• Intuition, signs, and giving ourselves permission to be who we are
• How judgment shrinks friend circles and strengthens the right ones
• Navigating divorce alongside an open nest and shifting parenting patterns
• Role and status as identity and why that transition feels destabilizing
• Menopause and perimenopause realities, symptom noise versus solutions
• Advocating for care, second opinions, and better menopause literacy
Connect with Jennifer @jennpowelllive @pause_midlife
Follow Living Left for bold conversations by women for women on business, creativity, and comeback energy.
Find us on Instagram @living_left_
Because what’s left isn’t less. It’s everything.
Welcome And Guest Backstory
SPEAKER_03Hello, Tanya. Hey Ann-Marie, how are you today? I'm great. I love how we pretend like we haven't spoken already today, but we have we have a new guest. We have Jennifer Powell here today.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to talk to you guys. I've like I've been we've been waiting. I've been waiting. I've been enjoying your seasons. Good. It's been fantastic. Good. Sweet of you.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's fun. And we want to have you on, but for many reasons. But um so we'll just we'll I'll introduce you slightly and then you can introduce yourself because I think that's the most important. You should have control over your own narrative. But I'll just kind of give my background. I think I've known you pioneers, maybe coming on screen somewhere on that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I know you from a previous life, previous business, back when the world we were we're not we were not called influencers. We were like coined mommy bloggers and in a space that was undervalued and pioneers a little bit, kind of like Little House in the Prairie of the Internet. And uh we met through, I believe through Blistom, but probably online prior to in the world of Twitter.
SPEAKER_00Tweeting and everybody talking online and all.
SPEAKER_03So we met in those ways and then in real life over various things. Um and then in many other iterations, actually, like as I moved on to starting left turn, then actually we came and talked applysti. Remember, Tanya? We came and yeah, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00And then you guys were like my how to turn influencer or content creator into entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_03Yes, right. How to actually transition that into a business versus a really fun hobby, um, which is an interesting, anyway, that's still an interesting topic, actually. Um those were good times. The good old days. Those are good, those were good days of also figuring out. And so we wanted to have you on because you have turned left many times in your career. Like maybe, maybe you're dizzy, even you've turned left that many times. Like a lot of you in very many iterations. Um, from event management to marketing to product developer to coach, yeah, like all of these things. So why don't you introduce yourself of who you are today and give us a little background too? Like what are your passions today? And we like to hear about the journey. The journey to, yeah.
SPEAKER_00The journey's an interesting one because I feel like, and I'm sure you guys, I've I've witnessed you both talking about this. It's like we are different versions of ourselves now than we have ever been. Like I'm far, and I want to say it's far beyond more confident. It's more um, like it's far more aware, more grounded, more like a stronger sense of self, like an not even like a pretend sense of self, but like a very assured sense of self. I agree.
SPEAKER_02Like, and then I know you haven't introduced yourself, but I can't like not say this. Sometimes I describe it as like even more human. Like I feel more deeply human in the the um multi-dimension of what can be in my 50s than I have ever been.
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent are we allowed to swear on this show? Or is this other
The Early Influencer Community Era
SPEAKER_00more to like bleep it out? Yeah, yeah. Like bleep it out, so don't you guys feel like we moved into our 40s and we were like zero fucks given and like really we don't give a fuck? And yes, you know, and that was really our generation of kind of like we're gonna push back and we're gonna say that we're not necessarily um gonna do what everyone has told us to do. Because I do feel like Gen X women have been stuck in this kind of construct of like being the daughters of people who a lot were stay at home and kind of couldn't necessarily recognize what it was like to be like a full-time, you know, I'm gonna go to university, I'm gonna get my degree, and then I'm going to become self uh an independent self. You know, I'm going to have my own career, my own job, and not really consider my husband's needs. Like, sorry, I'm not gonna say not gonna consider their needs, but I'm not going to be worried about necessarily what their career path is because I have my own. And I feel like a lot of our moms were really uncomfortable with watching us move into this space and saying this is what who we are. But then we still had that like traditional trajectory of what it was like being a mom. So you had this like combination of kind of like this strong, independent, ambitious woman, you know, Gen Xer with that, but we're still the traditional constructs with mom. Yeah, and then full-on burnout. Like I think like we saw a lot of our friends burn out kind of saw slash seeing, seeing, seeing.
SPEAKER_03I don't even think it's in the past. I think it's 100%, yes.
SPEAKER_00In this moment, yeah. And I think we sort of we mid 40s, I feel like things started to shift, and you kind of witnessed a lot of people saying divorce, separation, conscious uncoupling, uh, gray divorce. Um and I think people, like especially our women our age, kind of went it through this process of how do I want to show up for the rest of my life? How do I want to show up in this next chapter? And I know for me, like when you talk about kind of introductions, is like I look back and you know, I I did the agency thing, I did the brand thing. I was a brand and agency marketer. Um, I I worked for Harley and it was an amazing time. And also we could really work hard, play hard, and then I think now I would never be able to survive that environment. Yes. I could never do it now. No. Um, and then I kind of went into starting my own business and I really saw, and I know that you guys saw as well, like you saw the potential of social media, and we got it, we we jumped into the game early. And I yeah, I think that Blissom was probably the beginning where it felt like there was so much potential in creating and telling stories. Yeah. Um, so I told stories for a really long time and have worked with a lot of brands and clients on how to tell their story or how to get other people to tell their story because I always think like it works so much better when someone says you should buy their stuff, instead of a brand saying, buy my stuff, please buy myself, right? Um, but I think something happened along the way where um like influence in that word content just became a wasteland of shit. Like just kind of like people vomiting content. And even now with the advent of AI being able to do videos and you know, you can get 300 videos done in 30 seconds, it's lost that genuineness that was so like special when we all started it on Twitter because there was like people, you know, this camaraderie of community where people were like, I really feel you, and it's not like I'm diving into a social media hook to get you to listen to my reel for longer. It was like I'm struggling. And I I mean, I really value the fact that we all grew up in that mommy blogger era where we truly had community because I feel like now there's you know, I witnessed cousins and and younger friends who were like the competitiveness and the comparisonitis is like so rampant that I'm feeling that I'm seeing them feel a lot less about themselves than um, you know, like I feel like we had each other, and we kind of went, This sucks. And so, like, we kind of went through parenting like that, and that's a great segue to like now all our kids have gone to still we're in this next chapter, you know. Fast forward to myself included, Tanya. I know you've done it as well, where I was like, my needs in this relationship, 20-year relationship, are not being met. Um, I'm different, I'm a very different version of myself than I was 20 years ago. And I want more. I want to squeeze the lemon out of life. I want to do this stuff and climb the mountain and all that kind of stuff. And it just was like, you know, we were just at a crossroads where you kind of start looking at it. And I truly believe that if people start um if women especially start thinking about divorce, I think it's done. Don't you guys? Like it's kind of like nobody just goes, let's get divorced.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't happen overnight, even though that's what most people think. Right? They think we just like woke up one day and went, let's just get divorced. Like it's done. And I think that the crazy thing is is that I and I'm sure you guys know as well. Most of my friends who go to the point of divorce have been like lamenting not being happy in their relationship for probably five years plus. Yeah, yeah. Would you say that's the right around the right amount of time?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Like you kind of witness it, right? You sort of see them like really unhappy or or not fulfilled.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then it's almost
Gen X Pressure And Burnout
SPEAKER_00like you have to make that decision. Um, are you you're all in and you just feel like you you are now going to go, um, this is how I'm gonna buy my time for the rest of my life. Yeah, or you're like, I feel like an explorer and I want to keep going. 100%.
SPEAKER_03There's a lot of left turns in that. There was the left turn of the split, there's a left turn of if you go back to the initial storytelling you were talking about, right? Like, even dipping your toe in that was a left turn. Left turn in the kids going off to school. Like, there's a lot.
SPEAKER_00Even, you know, I would say, like, even my career at Harley, I was responsible for the beginning of social media. And I remember we had to go to like our legal team every single day. And I was gonna say, like, it's a nice day to ride on Facebook back in 2008. Yeah. And the lawyer was freaking out because what if I said it's a nice day to ride, and then somebody got on a motorcycle and then it rained and they fell and we got sued. Like, that was the kind of like we had to get legal approval to brand, like, you know, every single post we made. And but what was funny is like um I was kind of a you know, a left turn of the recession. Like, you know, we sort of knew in 2008 the recession was coming, and everyone kept saying, like, luxury vehicles are not something people are gonna be buying at this point in time. And I just kept watching, like, I knew it was coming. Like you're sort of sitting here going, okay, um, here it comes again. Like, you know, there's another sort of series of of layoffs. Okay, you know, we're we're down in sales. Yeah, like I'm you know, you're not you're not a dumb person. Um, I think what surprised me was I probably felt like I was one of the people who worked the hardest in the department. Yeah. Like, how are you gonna fucking survive?
SPEAKER_03I think I met you during that time. I think I met people. I think you were actually doing Harley stuff and had your blog, and then you decided to jump right in because of the down size. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then I started my own uh digital marketing agency. Yeah. And that was like probably one of the first big left times, right? Was like, I see this.
SPEAKER_02And so let's Yeah, so let's talk about that. You see this and they didn't. So that's as I'm listening to you. So, you know, not everyone. Um, so you have a you have learned and or have a comfort level that could just be Jen, who you are as a human, in being able to be unafraid of what the world is showing you, what the universe is presenting, right? I do think that's a big one. And I think, you know, taking a left turn is intentional. That's in our branding. We know that that like it's not an automatic right can feel very natural. But when you take a left turn, you it is you have to be taking a risk and making decisions. So you've done that to Emory's point, so many left turns. Like, talk about you saw it, others didn't. Like, what what advice would you give? Or did someone give you advice on um the unafraid of okay, this we're just leaning into, we're just gonna do this, and it's all gonna work out. That's very Pollyanna, but do you know what I mean? Like you learn your that muscle is built over time. Can you give us a bit of context on that?
SPEAKER_03I want to prompt her. I want to prompt her because I was gonna say there's a time Jen lives in uncertainty. She pulled her kids out of school, yeah, yeah, sold the house, yeah, and traveled the world for a year. So talk like that's a level of uncertainty that most people are not comfortable with. And you're like, I'm not entirely sure when we're coming back. I feel like you sort of had a plan, but it was loose. That is a great example. Maybe I'm gonna pick your example, but that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So talk about that, that muscle you you you have either built or you've always had that will help people maybe build that muscle.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for that, Tanya, because sometimes you forget, right? Like sometimes you realize like you're sort of in that context, and like, oh yeah, okay, there's been a few times that I've done that, you know. But I think it's like I do thrive in uncomfortable. I I agree with you. Like, even one of the things, and we can talk about that in a bit, is like I'm working in kind of like menopause and like sex and intimacy within like women our age, and that is super uncomfortable. And I just like again, it's like every time there's a discomfort, it's almost like that's my prompt to try and and push past it. Um, so to your point, Anne Marie, like with the um traveling the world for a year, that was prompted by I don't know if you remember, but my good friend Tracy, she she was an editor today's parent. She just uh overnight had a brain on your resume and passed. And to me, that was like one of the biggest moments where you go, holy shit, like nothing is guaranteed. Like truly nothing in this life is guaranteed. And so we had always sort of said, like, okay, in five years we're gonna travel the world, in five years that we're gonna travel the world. And I think I want to say it was Tim Ferris. I think in the four-hour work week, you know, which we all read back in the day. I think he's there was a line somewhere that said, Tomorrow can easily become never. And there was like this nick nugget in my brain about the fact that like we have no guarantees. So I sort of said to my husband at that point, I said, I'm done waiting. Like, fuck it. Like, let's put it on the talking pocket, like let's just do it. Um, and it's funny because my mom was like, uh, you know, when we
When Divorce Becomes Inevitable
SPEAKER_00said we're gonna travel the world for a year, she's like, okay, like what if the kids get kidnapped? What if you get eaten by a shark? What if there's like a Columbia mafia who, you know, like, what if this is like the worst decision you've ever made? And my response was, what if this is the best decision we've ever made? And I think it's like reframing all the fear, you know, that uh people like I asked my friend who'd done world travel, I said, you know, how did you do it? She said, Sometimes you just have to speak it and then start driving that intention, and everything shows up the way it was supposed to happen. And it really did. Like it was like, you know, we decided uh New Year's, I remember it was New Year's Eve going into 2016. And we said, We're gonna put the house on the market, put the house on the market in April, and then you know, we thought we could an Airbnb until we left. We sort of said October was kind of our our wheelhouse, and then the lady who bought our house was like, I really could use a longer clothes. How do you guys mind staying there until September? We're like, sweet, okay, that works. And then friends of ours were they said, We're traveling to Newfoundland for six weeks. Do you mind watching our house? Um yes, please. And then we stayed for a week, we crashed on our friend's couch, and then we were gone. So it was like everything that we needed to happen just kind of fell into place. And I really do believe that the universe has our backs, like that's I do believe that as long as you trust it. Yeah, you know, you have to trust. Um but yeah, I think like I always always have that fear and anxiety, and then there's part of me that almost like I want to feel like it's um, and I know you guys have the same personality. It's like, don't piss me off and say I can't do something because that is my entire driver to prove me wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like our that's our gold star ADHD GemX brain.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, don't say I can't because now I'm doing it. And I do agree too with your of speaking it. I think that that um is important too, like whether it's the manifestation, whatever you want to say. But I do think that there's some power in actually saying it out loud. I think, you know, a lot of us, it's in our heads, we wonder. But as soon as you talk about it, it again comes back to community and connection. I think why women are so powerful, and you touched on this, is because we can talk to our most of our girlfriends, you know, without judgment to say, so I'm thinking about this, like this is an end, there's the account and how to. Um, so I do think if you just lean in, the universe will will respond in such a way. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03So that phrase you said though, universe has our back if you trust and pay attention. And I think the other part of this wrote down is and pay attention. Pay attention. Because that is a tough thing to do when you are in the thick of things or if your mindset is not totally positive. But the paying attention, do you have any like how do you pay attention to that inner voice or that outer voice? Like whether the universe is actually the outer voice or if it's really just yourself.
SPEAKER_00You're knowing I think it's yeah, and I think it's like I'm also a big believer in signs, you know, where you sort of say, so for example, you know, and not that you've spoken on your phone or looked it up on your phone because everything will show up as a sign then because it will all, you know, the algorithm. Algorithm, the algorithm. There you go. Yeah. But you know, I think it's sort of like you start thinking about it, and then to me, you'll get these dips of these bread crumbs that will just sort of show up to say, like, oh, you were thinking about um orangutans in Sumatra. Like I had this idea that I was gonna go and volunteer and and just um help at a orangutan uh sanctuary in um Sumatra. So all of a sudden it's like without seeing it, without researching it, without doing much, like all of a sudden I'm getting these hits where you're sort of seeing like different advertisements for Sumatra or Malaysia, and just kind of suddenly like, oh, okay, like I'm noticing, or maybe it's like when you're pregnant, you start noticing more pregnant women. You know, you start noticing these things. And I think to your point, it's just it's it's really following the breadcrumbs where I feel like the universe is almost giving these, like, you're on the right path. That's a great idea. Keep going. Um, you know, I don't ever think it says don't do that. I think it just says, Do you have the conviction to keep going on this path? And I'm gonna just keep showing you like the 1111s or the, you know, whatever. Yeah, like I have um I have a couple of numbers that have always been my numbers. Yeah. And it shows they show up constantly, and I just consider that that's like affirmation. Yeah, I feel the same way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's giving you a little universe is giving you a little high five. Keep going. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Did you always have that though, Jen? Did you always like in your 20s? Did you feel like that? Or do you think it's something you've come to as the older you get?
SPEAKER_00You know, I think it's like going back to that confidence of us getting into like our, you know, giving our 50-year-old kind of version of ourselves. I know that I was always woo, right? Like I always kind of had this, like I look back and I had this book on how to do Reiki that my dad gave me when I was like 16 or 18. I became a Reiki master when I was in my late 40s, um, which is kind of funny because you sort of think, okay, if you plot back kind of the the trail, you know, um, I loved horoscopes back then. I loved kind of magic and like tell me do a tarot reading for me. Like I've even to whatever. And now I do, you know, I I read tarot, I I run full moon circles, I I I lead cacao ceremony meditations. And it's like I almost it took me until this age to give myself permission to not worry about what everybody thought. Um, and I do believe, like, I know this is gonna sound really woo and we're an old you're gonna be like, what? But I do think there's this kind of like witch wound that we all carry,
Recession Lessons And Career Pivots
SPEAKER_00this fear of persecution. Yeah. And it's like there was a point in time where I thought, this is I want to be on the side of the witches who stood up and said, Yeah, fuck this. This this is a no-go. I'm not gonna give away, you know, give away a friend or um take this hit without going kicking and screaming for this persecution. Um I definitely had to work a lot of therapy on that because I feel like that was sort of um my own inner critic and then feeling judged by other people, even through the like the divorce and stuff like that. I felt really judged and it was sort of like um I noticed that one's a career. It's okay, we can still hear you too. Okay, perfect. Yeah, the people just like have are quick to judge, and I really, you know, to me that that centered around who I could truly trust within my core group. Like I would say that I thought I had 30, 40 friends, and now I would say that that select group of people who really have my back are like under 10.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So why? So hold on, pause. So why? Because when you started listening to yourself, yeah, and I think or when you started listening, or when you started listening to yourself and standing up for others, that shrunk.
SPEAKER_00Both I think like when I started, I would say blossoming into like a real version of myself, a version that doesn't necessarily give a shit about whether or not somebody thinks that I did the right thing or the wrong thing. Um, as I was moving into that space, uh, I could see people's discomfort with my making things uncomfortable, right? And it was like sometimes I thought that me getting divorced was shining a light on their own relationships and they couldn't handle that. Um I get you. I am I am a trigger, I'm a mirror for what you're moving through. And and I I feel like now in this woo world that I live in, I sit with so much more compassion that we're all just human beings trying to figure out this life. And people don't mean to be avoidant or mean or judgmental. It's just like this is the conditioning we grew up with. Yeah, I would agree with that.
SPEAKER_03That's what it is. It's because if you're turning left all the time and you're pursuing what you think is right and good, and you're not apologizing for that in any way, and you're making those moves, that does make people feel uncomfortable, especially those who have, as we talked about in our last podcast, who are moving through life with the current, right? Because it's really easy in life to just flow through that current without actually making any decisions. You just kind of go with what's ahead. That doesn't, that's not intuition. That's going along, that's going, that's easy going with the flow. In fact, our society uh thinks that's a great way to be easy going and go with the flow. But what if you actually created your own current and you veered off? It's not the majority. No, not veer off from the current.
SPEAKER_02No, and it's a select few. I feel like, and and where I think it's it's even more where I I think you're getting to, Jen, is when I was talking about the human part. It's like, okay, so the tough part is you've turned left and now you're you're fighting for the beautiful life you believe to be true. So, yes, check, that's a bonus. But what's an even bigger bonus is when you work through the uncomfortable part of it in dealing with the judgment or the repercussions of that. Because like we're not gonna sit here and say, you can just turn left and it's super easy. And like, you know, it's hard, it's tough to trust yourself and keep doing the things when the voices are saying not to. But the the benefit, even on top of that, is I think when you said you you have more empathy, you actually, I think, hit a different level of compassion because you've worked through something, you've seen the other side, and you have found your people, you've survived. And so now I feel anytime someone comes to me, my response is on an entirely different level than it would have been five years from now. And I think that's what you were tweaking on, right? Like if people just understood that you have to get through the hard. There's a benefit to that, yes. But the even greater benefit are the people you find, the trusting in yourself and your ability to connect at a level that you were never able to do, or or no, you were, but not to the degree in which you can now connect with people and understand their hardships. I think that's such a gift, actually. Like that's where I feel like I am an entirely different human than I was 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_00But it's like what you're saying, Kenya, it's like you feel far more human in this version than I think we like. I think we've all done it. We've all played the game, right? We've all shown up with the smile. You know, how is everything fine? It's all fine, everything's fine. Like I have a sticker that's like it's fine. But it's I feel now that you kind of lean into friendships where you're like, listen, enough of this shit. Like, are we truly rider dies? Yes. Or like, can you take my dark shit and we just say it out loud and trust me to do that vulnerability? Because I think that's like I feel, don't you guys feel like you're just so tired of surface level conversations that just fit in like how are you doing? What are you doing? Like, I had a uh a family member say to me recently, like, so what have you accomplished this year? Because you know, I'm I'm building a new brand, and and I was like, Life, I fucking accomplished life. Life like I am arriving at life, like you know, I'm not you know, I have a lot of friends who are waiting to retire, and I think part of your the impetus,
Building The Uncertainty Muscle
SPEAKER_00um, Anne-Marie is you know, I read somewhere where you do like mini retirements to your life, and when you do those mini retirements, like I could not, we climbed Kilmanjero when I turned 40. We went on this world trip when I was 42, and I couldn't necessarily do some of the physical activity even at 51 that I could do 10 years ago. Um, we were in much better shape. We could like climb mountains, we could we surfed in Uruguay, we didn't went scuba diving a bunch of places. Like that stuff is the stuff that I'd rather do those mini vacations and mini retirements than yeah waiting for that illustrious day that you retire. And like my mom's secretary couldn't wait till she retired. She found out she like had less time to till she retired that day. She was so happy. She went home and died that day. Like it was crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you hear those stories, but no, that is true. You just you just you just do the you don't know what is tomorrow. All you know is what is now. And it's and and to that answer, that question of again, like what have you accomplished? What's the goal? That is so built in the you know, patriarchy of life, of the system that is built that's broken. Like, what do you mean what have I accomplished? Like to your point, like that is what we have to deprogram ourselves is that every day you need to accomplish something versus just being like I'm just being today. I am in the moment today, which is kind of a hard thing to get rid of though, like as a child person. Dude, yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03I feel I'm actually quite present, but I do enjoy a plan. I was about to say plan of action, but it doesn't have to be plan of action, action, action. It's it's directionally, it's like where am I putting my energy in what way? And I liked it, and I also like a list because otherwise I could put my energy in a lot of places really fast. And that's a little bit of a path.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think that there's this age and stage in your life, you have to be paying attention to either make the list or to be present. Like you have to, otherwise, you just progress with the current. So tell us more. Okay, tell us more about where you are midlife. So, because I don't know, you guys haven't seen each other for a little while. So our kids are kind of all the same age. Your kids have gone off to school too. Like, what was the do what how did you find the like you went through the divorce and then the and then the empty nest kind of similar to the same time? Yeah, yeah, genuinely related. We're the same.
SPEAKER_00We were living parallel universities. Totally, we were totally, and it's so funny because I actually think both of us were trying to move through divorce with grace, right? Like as much as we could try. Um, and so we actually were separated quite a long time before we left the same house. We just were still kind of in friendship mode where I moved into uh my office and like got a bed, and like that became sort of my apartment. And our kind of deal was um, and I don't know, are you guys children of divorce? No, and when your parents were together, and neither of your your yours are the same. So I think for yeah, so interestingly, I one thing I will always say is that your kids know well before you ever say to them that we're we need to get a or we're getting a divorce, they already know. Um, and second thing there for the kids, I actually think is one of the most um core lessons to model for your children because poor or poor, what did you say? Poor, poor with a like I feel like if you say I'm staying in this unhappiness, you know, my own self-unhappiness for the children, a that places a lot of guilt on them, um, if they're if they choose to take it, and B, are a lot of responsibility, and B, they're witnessing you unhappy. And what I hope that I've modeled for my kids is I always want you to know you have a choice, and you always, even in relationships that should still be working, if they're not and you don't feel the same way, it is okay to leave. Um, so we stayed, but it was interesting, like we stayed for like two plus years in the same environment. Um, also in a very big, you know, if we're gonna be super vulnerable, like my ex-husband are super conflict abordant people. So we're like, it's fine, everything's fine. It actually worked out quite well in this situation. It worked out quite well, yeah. Like we still did the things, we just didn't have the sex, but we still did the things like as a family, right? Totally. So we actually got to the kids uh graduating both from you from high school, and then we sent them both off to uni. And then we were like, well, now we have to leave the house. And that became suddenly like this weird chasm where oh, we've kind of been coexisting as friends for years now, and now we have to do the deal. Like now we have to like get into like the separation agreement and all the icky whatever, and then it felt hard at that point in time at the same time that you're feeling that kind of sense of loss with well, what do I do now? Because my kids don't need me. They're both at school. Um, so I I keep repositioning and reframing it's an openness, it's not an emptiness because I feel like words matter, and if you say emptiness, it actually like hits in your heart. Whereas I'm like, it's a really good phrase. I like that actually. I've I I've heard that sometimes. Yeah, it helps it helps my brain in terms of I'm not alone. Like, or I, you know, like there's not a loneliness that I feel sometimes hits within the things. That's such a great point, John. And they do go back and forth, and the nest is still there. Yeah, exactly. You push them out, go do the thing, learn to fly. Um, but you can always come back to the nest. Like it's you know, open door policy, like you don't we're not done, like our relationship is not done. Um, but I've pushed you out to go fly for a bit, then you come back during the summer, and I I mean, like, tell me either of you guys were sort of like, Hey, this is freedom, because then all of a sudden you start adjusting to like the fact that you're almost revisiting this kind of like either aloneness with your partner or kind of a newness being on your own, and you're like, oh, come back, and you're like, I kind of I kind of remember this. This is really fun, actually. I can make my own decisions and don't have to like worry about anyone's dinner or you know, appointments or whatever, and then to your point, Tanya, and then they come back and you're like, What are you doing here? Like this. I have to cook dinner.
SPEAKER_01I have to have groceries in the fridge.
SPEAKER_03To
Signs Intuition And Going Woo
SPEAKER_03buy groceries? What? God, I'm not totally there. You guys know I'm not well. No, you're not, you still have one. I still have one, but she'll tell you that the meals have gone downhill. She would say, I don't understand.
SPEAKER_02Like, I guess they should. I mean, there's a balance to that as well. But I agree, there is a um, there's a jarring effect to like, oh gosh, I'm with you. What day is cereal? Yeah, that's September 7th, yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, I know, right? And that's the thing, is like now you're in that kind of like the turnstile door where they kind of come and they go, yeah, and then you sort of slip back into patterns of parenting, and then you're kind of like, but you're also adults. So I'm trying to respect you going through your own growing pains and and also let's just have cereal for breakfast or for dinner because it's too hard. Yes. Well, you're not here anyway.
SPEAKER_03You're here because your shifts of blah blah blah. Like there's not gonna be any big family dinners because everyone, so it's not even.
SPEAKER_02I feel like that was likely. How did you feel, Jen? Like in all of the hard decisions that obviously you went through in a short period of time. I I mirrored that. Um, I did find that that um that part of I want to now live this life, which may not mirror the life you grew up with. And that's okay. And I don't know what you know, your ex-husband did, but my ex-husband very much mirrored the previous life. Like he just created it maybe on a smaller scale, but it was still all of the same things, which is a level of comfort for the kids. I find in all of the difficult decisions for me was the hardest to stay true to no, no, I I'm gonna still do this. Even I'm not gonna succumb to this would be easier if I just did it this way. I found that was the hard, not the leaving none of that was as hard. It was in the okay, now they're off, they're gonna come back, and that's gonna look, might feel a little um like uh disjointed for them. Yeah. So I I'm always like, ladies, just stay true to what you. I mean, I had a cheerleader in Anne Marie who was like, just give your head a shake, Garcia, like it'll be fine. But how about you? Like, did you find that that in all of those moments that that was maybe one of the harder ones?
SPEAKER_00Oh my God. I first of all, I love that Anne Marie just said, just give her head a shake, Garcia, because I feel like I can hear her actually saying that.
SPEAKER_03I pretty much said to her, You're can I say what I said? Can I of course you can when we were sitting on the couch and you were worried about what kind of environment to create in the new place? And you had in your head kind of like your like the repeat, same thing, and the but you were trying to find something that was more suitable for you. Like you were deciding the rent or the close to the water, and you're like, I want this. And I thought you were very brave. You actually listened to me, which again I was just spitballing because I had not gone through it myself. But uh, my perspective was you have been the primary parent all the way through. I believe you have earned to not have to be the primary vocal and primary parent for the next 20 years, and that perhaps your thing looks different. Like maybe you're the one who takes them on the vacations, yeah, but you have what you need, yes, and that's okay. To make a decision about what you need, and then it's all gonna work out. You don't have to be the exact same role, yeah. But again, I was not going through it, so it's easy for me to give advice about something I don't have to do.
SPEAKER_00So it was still, you know, sometimes you need that, like, you know, I call it the boop in the head, like you need the friend that is gonna give you, I'm gonna boop you. Like do the thing. Um, I totally agree with you, Tanya. Like it, it's it's funny because I felt like if we want to talk about me being comfortable in discomfort and uncomfortableness, the most uncomfortable I felt is trying to figure out what my status was or like what my role and position was. Openness, divorce, trying to save my own sovereignty as well, right? Like, because there is this element that I feel like we need to model to our kids um healthy boundaries, uh, like deserving good treatment, right? Because the one thing I did notice is like I there was a point in time where I noticed that my ex-husband is a jokester, and so he makes a lot of jokes. And there was a point in time where I could hear my kids echoing those jokes, and I was like, Oh, be careful, be careful here, because you're going to find a spouse someday who might actually not be okay with this kind of joke, and it's gonna come back and bite you in the ass that this has sort of become something that is so like intrinsic because of what you grew up with of not okay. For sure. Very interestingly, so um, I'm living actually up in Southampton and my kids are living with me this summer, and I felt devastated because at first they really wanted to live in Toronto for the summer, and I was like, Oh, I can't really give them that solution. I didn't want to give them that solution, Kenya, as well, and it was gonna be like royally expensive. Um, and then it was kind of like one of those, I just have to trust the university, it's all gonna work out the way it's going to. Um, and they might be upset with me. Now, ironically, they were upset with me, but then we also had probably one of the most human, honest conversations that we've had, and it cleared the air of our conflict avoidance, even between the kids and I. We kind of came to a really great place, and it's like my role to a degree is done. I've gotten you to adulthood. Yeah. Now, now it's up to you to make some really stupid decisions, and I will always be here to like get you out of jail or bail you out.
SPEAKER_02I can be your ride or die in that moment, but I don't have to be here every day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I am also like respecting the fact that you need to kind of go and figure it out. Like, it's not always gonna be me. Um, it's going to be the self, and that has been a hard sort of discovery to come to is that I don't have that. Like, I almost wanted them to need me more, right? Like I wanted them to still need me. And then I was like, oh geez, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02Like so uh yeah, so I think the way you said role and status is like brilliant. I actually didn't use those words. And when you said it to me, I was like, that's it. I do believe that our generation of females, like every generation has something. We are, if I could be so bold, the kind of leading the breaking of the cycle. Like, because we have no one mirroring this for us. My mother certainly, I mean, like, you know, she she is still Italian mom at home doing all the things. Like, we don't have our mothers mirroring this for us, that it is actually okay that you are not doing everything the world is telling you as a mom that your role is supposed to be, and you're leaning in. I think, you know, role
Judgment Friendship Filters And Compassion
SPEAKER_02and status is the biggest challenge right now is we are redefining what that is.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_02And hopefully the younger generation actually won't have such wait till 50. Like my goal is, and I'll have to tell you, I do think it is happening. Our young, the younger women, my daughter, our daughters, what have you, won't get it, they'll get into another situation because every generation is different, but they will break this cycle earlier. They won't give it away as easily because give it away meaning their role, their status, their identity, all of that. Um, so we don't have anyone modeling. When you said role and status, that is what I was uncomfortable with.
SPEAKER_00Like who am I? Yeah. I think like we always wanted to get married. I remember you always put like you're dressed up like a bride, and like that was the role, even as a kid. Like, we like wanted to like play house. We wanted to do the the the standard things, and now it's like there's so much more emphasis on all genders, you know, um, playing with trucks and doing the same thing. I mean, I'm sure the day is real. Well, even my kids became like I had a I had an autistic son and I had a fluid daughter who was non-binary for a very long time and has waffled back and forth.
SPEAKER_03And so it's like you get into this world of like everything that I knew has to be thrown out right now, and I have to kind of come up with this whole new So you guys are saying something really you know what you're both talking about, which is interesting. So the rolling status is essentially like a fluidity of status. So we're comfortable when we talk about or we're getting more comfortable, I think as a society, when we talk about the fluidity of gender, when we talk about the fluidity of other elements of our life, but the fluidity of our status, like that's an interesting when she said that.
SPEAKER_02I yeah, like my mind really blown, it's brilliant because I never thought of it that way. Because I consider myself like pretty progressive, like in a lot of those. Like I am better. I'm sure Jennifer, you feel in what you just described with your two children. Like I'm a better parent, I'm better human being because of my kids, like them in being non-conformist in whatever way in which they are. I am far more open. But the status thing, I uh like that actually makes me angry with not I'll forgive myself, but in a way, I'm like, darn it, Tanya. Like you, status isn't important to me as a female. Like I can be okay with that, but actually I wasn't.
SPEAKER_03No, and it's the same thing as saying who am I? Status doesn't necessarily mean I'm the Queen of England versus the people just emptying the chamber buckets. Like it's not status like that. No, no, status as role in the family, role in my unit, but also who am I to myself? Like, what is who am I? Who do I want to be? Who that's the thing, you're becoming, you're still becoming. Yeah. You're not, it's so fluid. We're not, we're not there yet. This is an ever-changing picture. We're not even there. Like, and in fact, it's probably gonna be one big cycle. But you know, we're just gonna come right back to who we were at five years old, probably. Like, what did you love?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's just still seen as a failure. That's, I think, the thing is it's still seen as a what is seen as a failure?
SPEAKER_03To know who you are or to know at the status of something.
SPEAKER_02If your role and status as the matriarch within your whatever point is, is not equivalent to what you have learned to date, what society is telling you, what your own inner circle is telling you, and there's no judgment in the statement, it just is, then the what you feel in that moment, even though in all your knowing you know this is the right thing, you can very easily acquiesce, if that's the word. Like you can, I had moments of just going. Yeah, it's too much. It was only in my it was that moment. It wasn't the blowing up my life. It wasn't any of those things. Like it was in that moment. If Amory, you didn't just say that to me, I would have made different choices in that little moment because it's that strong. Our role and status is still that strong. So we are breaking that cycle if we don't give in. So I feel good about that.
SPEAKER_00The interesting thing, too, and I invite you guys to consider this, is like our I would say that our mom's generation is very passive aggressive, and it's very it steeps in victim mode. And so I think we as Gen Xers learned to become that being done to victim mode as just a natural progression of the model behavior that we witnessed. Um, you know, to your point about failure versus success, like I still attribute Julie Cole. Like when she was getting divorced, she said, I consider this a success because I made the decision to be happy. And I was like, Oh thank you. Agreed. Because to me, that energy was like, I sort of say to people, we had a very successful 15 years. We raised two beautiful children who are like strong, independent. They know that they have the safety. Like, I actually feel like what we are providing for our children is that safe place. Because I feel like a lot of times we grew up with not having a safe place. Like we grew up with I'll give you something to cry about, and like you know, we can kind of go back into our childhood and look at it. It never felt emotional space. It was never like I'm going to actually listen to what you're feeling as a human and like hold space for you. I don't feel like that was, I think that's like an entire generation of us. Like we kind of like stuck it up.
SPEAKER_03Even the healthiest versions were not as healthy as they could be.
SPEAKER_00No, and so when we talk about going into the more human versions of ourselves now, like part of that work was really like, how quickly do I fall into victim and feel done to, even within my divorce, right? Like, you know, he wasn't showing up for me. He was like, Well, I have some accountability too. I was a terrible communicator,
Divorce With Kids And Open Nest
SPEAKER_00right? Like I was feeling hurt, but I sucked at saying, like, no, this is actually my hard stop. And if you don't address and make me a priority, then I'm out. Like you see any of that. Instead, I woefully sort of felt like hard done by that's what we do, right? So I feel like to your point about breaking the cycle, Tanya, I feel like what we're demonstrating to our kids is like accountability, um, showing up for ourselves, being a safe place for them to come to when they are trying. Cause I think like we had to kind of bucket, right? Like, Anne Marie, I'm sure when you were starting your first business, was your mom like go ahead, or was she sort of saying, I don't know, that feels risky because it's entrepreneurial? Oh, my parent? Oh no, they all thought that was crazy. Right.
SPEAKER_03Right. So it's like we couldn't say that crazy. It probably was crazy. It was it was I loved it. I followed into it, I followed my intuition. Yeah. Completely intuitively built.
SPEAKER_02But your response to your children would be different.
SPEAKER_03100% encourage entrepreneurship easily because I've been an entrepreneur. So I think that's probably it. Probably everybody supports a space that they understand. So were our parents actually not supportive or they just didn't understand? They're just risk at birth, right? Imagine if you asked your all of our mothers are still alive. We asked our mothers, like, what's your rolling status? If we asked them about the fluidity of their status, like, like there's no way, like like my mom would nod, like she understood, like, but and I don't think she listens to this podcast, so I can talk about her. But like, I I just can't, I think that this is that is not something that they'd ever challenge themselves to think about. So it's not that they can't, and it's not even that they're not interested in, they just probably didn't have the permission in their own selves to question that unless they were full hippies. Were your mom's hippies? Mine was not.
SPEAKER_00No, no, my mom was in in government. Yeah, she was like, you know, she was the mom that would go buy the cupcakes and pretend she made them because she felt judged by all the stay-at-home moms. And she'd do the flour on the plate and put it on because she was a hard ass worker working full-time and had a great career. But I did see her like overstepped by men in her industry because you know, she's a woman. It just wasn't done. Women weren't that level of government, yes, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so and I was raised by the mom who was running that big sale, yeah, and and judging, judging because she was working so hard making cupcakes more than enough cupcakes for everybody for everybody, and then probably should have been in her career but wasn't, and now is you know, the most happy when I have a child success than my own. Yeah, you know, because it's the motherhood, like the motherhood badge is the most important because that was what she understood. Yeah, so that's what and that she measured herself.
SPEAKER_02So that I think is that, and then that is the full circle, I think, of the aha for me is that we don't have that. Um we didn't have that marriage for good reason. Again, no judgment. We understand. I think that perspective, we're we're afforded that perspective, which is a gift versus maybe what our mothers have had. So I am excited to see what our daughters and sons um and and children, I should say, will do um because they can watch us and they'll be that much better. They'll show things to their children that we wouldn't have even thought of. But I do think we are a few steps ahead. I feel good about that. Like I feel like our generation, you know, it's we are the cycle breakers. We are like, think about parametric cause, think about all of those, like taking action in these spaces. It's we didn't like we're the like, I don't care if there was a study, bullshit, blah, blah, blah. Like it was ours, like, give me the extra gen. Yes.
SPEAKER_03I think that the our kids are also as entrepreneurs in this, like in this podcast. I think they'll be better. I think they'll be way better in this world of AI because all because the people who can manage their own business and figure out maybe, maybe they're gonna be doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and the whole gig economy is gonna come right back and they're gonna need to figure out versus if we were full-on corporate, those people are gonna have a harder time adjusting in the future. And those kids, and then they will have a harder time to support those kids when they pursue entrepreneurial adventures.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh, so whether regardless of what happens in the rest of their life, I think that as entrepreneurs, we'll be able to support them in the variety of work that will probably happen. It's not gonna be a straight line.
SPEAKER_02No, for sure. Yeah. So, Jen, just before we close it off, if there's someone listening who's like, again, sitting in this uncertainty, and we know there's a lot of women, you said it at the very beginning, that there is there's no way in the women that you're talking to, there's a lot of people where versions of this is going on in their head, right? What would you say? Like what, you know, if it was maybe something you heard earlier or something that you you haven't said already that you're like, you know, the menopause coaching, you kind of inferred.
SPEAKER_03Like, I feel like a lot of that is this.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. So I think the aha for for me is like as we're transitioning to this next chapter. So I started branding um this menopause coaching as pause midlife. Yes. Like, let's just take a moment and let's kind of, you know, I kind of been calling it a midlife awakening, but this awareness that um, you know, this this midlife crisis that people used to have is now like an awakening of um, I might have 40 more years. I might have a year left. But if I only have a year left, I'll be really pissed off if I don't do all the ideas that I had done. Like I want to get some more stuff done, you know, and and do the things and create and and blossom. And like to your point, almost I think that that's how we feed the matriarchy is the more we kind of nurture and create, um, it's kind of the pushback against the patriarchal stamp that we're, you know, moving through. I I feel like what I'm doing now is um, so I still run a digital marketing agency and always happy to work with brands on that. That's kind of been my bread and butter. But what my passion is now is working in menopause coaching because I feel like women are still not asking the questions, or they're still not like there's some who are, I feel like I'm hyper aware. And you guys are probably hyper aware of what you're moving through in perimenopause and menopause. There's so many women who I don't think are aware of either how angry they're becoming or how like you know, how many women have you heard that say, like, my husband was breathing and it was driving me fucking nuts? And you're sitting here going, okay, that could be like literally your mental health is changing rapidly because you're losing estrogen and what have you. And so I I have been working with women to kind of advocate for navigating this part of the journey with ease, you know, because I feel like
Role And Status As Identity
SPEAKER_00right now, if you look on social content, it's very driven to here's the 180 symptoms of suffering that we move through in time menopause. And I think if I look at the two of you guys and myself included, all of us are solution-oriented women. We're like, okay, yes, this blows. Like this shit is hard. I would like to sleep through the night. I would like to not feel so volatile in my emotions. I would like to um, you know, not do have all because you know, the one thing that I I thought was the most interesting is estrogen affects every single one of our organs. We've always considered it a reproductive situation. Like, you know, you kind of that's it, you lose your period. In doing the research, it's like it affects our hearing, our eyesight, our epidermal. Like, you know, if you start getting rashes, that's a really common um or an allergic reaction is a really, really common reaction to perimenopause. It's also lasting 10 to 15 years. We thought it was a year. So there's this rampant amount of information, and kind of like to you guys' point, as far as pioneering things and being a futurist, I see the conversation around perimenopause and menopause is happening, which I fucking love. But I feel like we're still kind of sitting in oh, you know, us sitting in victim, like we're suffering. And I'm like, okay, so listen, we're wise ass grandmas now. Like, come on, like, you know, I I actually want to get a t-shirt that says own the crone, like kind of just like you know, like you know, grandma energy and fucking what wisdom coming out of our our our Yahoos and and just helping women move through this. Yeah, I think to your point, rebuilding the same community that we had when we were growing up as moms, but it's like bliss them 5.0, like we're 50 now, and we're saying, okay, let's look at the fact that there's so many versions that we've gone through, but now this version doesn't need to suffer a lot. I think that you know, the more we talk as ride or dies, the more we kind of go, Oh, get through this.
SPEAKER_03I'll get through this. Yes, and it's changing that language from suffer to transition, I feel like something because it's not all suffering, it's annoying, but it's like you're it's you're hopefully at the end of it, it's like you shed your snake skin and you come out with like your slither along even more beautifully, like or a crystalist or whatever it is. Agreed, like it and if it's not, like that's disappointing, but then we need to make it amazing at the other end. So I think that's it. What is it? You're working really hard to get through this transition to what is it? Like, what is it? And you and everybody's answer has got to be different. Yeah, I agree with that. And you have to take a left turn to figure it out. You should probably have to take many left turns. And if you've never taken a left turn in your life, this process, my theory, is 10 times harder because you have no control and it's just happening to you. And if you've never felt good in uncertainty, or you've never nobody feels good in uncertainty. So if you've never given yourself permission to listen to yourself, listen to it and ground it. Find comfort in it. Yeah, like find like what are the stabilizing factors in here? What do I like about this? What do I not like about it? Because you've been taught that uncertainty is wrong, so you go the other way. That's like you gotta practice, it's a muscle. You have to practice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, agreed. I agree with that.
SPEAKER_03So I'm curious where your whole coaching piece is gonna go. I think that there's a bunch of neat ideas because there is a lot of menopause noise out there. The question is, what is what are solutions and what are community-based? Yeah, what is just a bunch of griping?
SPEAKER_00You know, you said something, Emery, that I think is really important to share with your audience. And that is like I was just talking to someone the other day, and they said, Well, my doctor said, Don't take HRT and don't do this and everything. I said, first of all, the average doctor's curriculum has been about 30 minutes worth of menopause curriculum. Yeah. So let's let's put that into perspective in terms of like of the years and years of medical curriculum. Menopause, even though it affects 50% of the population, you know, really is not discussed, or there's not a huge amount of addressing of it in medical curriculum. I think it's starting to change, but up until now it hasn't been. Yeah. So it's unless they're taking time upon themselves to actually do the research, um, realistically,
Menopause Solutions And Self Advocacy
SPEAKER_00the the truth is that they don't have a ton of fast knowledge. The second thing is it's called a medical practice. The same as is a yoga practice. So if I'm starting, yeah. So if I'm starting, you know, the first yoga day that I've ever done, I'm not going to do like standing on my head or doing whatever that, you know, sitting crow or everything. Yeah. I need to practice a lot to get there. The same goes for medical, like these are humans who are making choices. And there becomes a point in time where you need to advocate for yourself. And if your doctor is saying no, I would say, like, you know, come talk to me. Let's go talk to a naturopath. It's a practice. Medic, you know, doctors are are humans too. And so listening like 100% to a physician who says you don't need to do any kind of care towards your perimenopause journey, I think is showing that they're not putting a lot of practice into understanding their patients.
SPEAKER_02100% agree with that.
SPEAKER_03That's my PSA for today. I love that PSA. And there's and finding those others go to the other person. It doesn't work within your within your OHIP. You could find other situations, which is uncomfortable in itself because you're used to the one thing.
SPEAKER_02But but sometimes you have to take you have to take uh accountability and control for that. You have to. You have to. Jen, I enjoyed this thoroughly. Thank you so much. Are we done already? You just have to continue this on a patio somewhere. It's that simple. It's it doesn't need to end.
SPEAKER_03And the and or we have another rebranded Men of Haw's second episode.
SPEAKER_02I would love that.
SPEAKER_03In itself. So thanks, Jen.
SPEAKER_00I I love the Ahas. Um, and thank you for like some of the stuff that you guys uh said really helped me put some things in perspective.
SPEAKER_02So everything did.
SPEAKER_03It was rolling status. Rolling status. I'm gonna hear that every day. I'm gonna hear I 10 is gonna say it every day. I'm just like, why? I totally am though. That's my new thing.
SPEAKER_02She knows because we're in so many conversations. Like, here she goes again.
SPEAKER_03When you learn something, you say it over.
SPEAKER_02It's how I learn it. Yes, and I want to teach it. There you go. Pass it on. I love it all that.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for that class.
SPEAKER_00All right, thanks for coming.
SPEAKER_03Hang on for one second, but for everyone else, we're saying goodbye. See you next time.