Ep 04 - Sustainability Fundamentals - Chris Terry

It's the hottest topic in the brewing industry right now. But how many of us can recite all the fundamentals right now?
 
In this episode we have with us Chris Terry a brewing sustainability expert who delivers carbon literacy training all around the world with his company 86-Carbon. 

By the end of this episode you will understand every brewery based sustainability fundamental.

3:21 - Why is sustainability an important topic?
7:26 - What is carbon zero?
8:32 - What is carbon offsetting? 
11:32 - So what are kilos of CO2 equivalent or CO2e?
12:35 - What is green washing?
14:48 - What is scope 1, 2 and 3
21:26 - Can one brewery can make a difference?
30:04 - what are the threats of sustainability?
34:50 - What can breweries action on sustainability? 
37:25 - My top tips for brewers.

Thank you to our sponsor Brewing Trade, a platform to not only buy high quality hops direct, but also sell your over contracted ones!

🔗 Chris' LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-lewington/ 

🔁 Brewing Trade - https://www.brewingtrade.com/

Transcript

0:14

So welcome everyone to the fourth episode of the modern brewer podcast on today's episode We're going to be talking about sustainability Sustainability will be a theme that goes throughout this podcast life. This is going to be the first episode. So what we're going to do is cover the basics of sustainability, the key terms, key concepts, and ultimately how your brewery could start sustainability today. But first, a big thank you to all of the followers slash subscribers that we currently have. I appreciate the nicheness of this topic and subject matter, so to have well over 100 followers Uh feels like a really good achievement. So thank you to everyone who's hit follow and subscribed to the podcast so far If you haven't that would be great If you could start means you never miss an episode And I don't have to basically push it as much on social media If that isn't enough to persuade you to hit follow hopefully the next few topics will So the topics coming up will be data management in the brewing process We have also an episode on regenerative agriculture and regenerative barley And also an episode that will be entitled when to move brewery Which is going to be exciting because we're going to go through when if and how you should leave your brewery So hit subscribe slash follow and you will never miss any of those great topics So, with me today I have Chris Terry. I actually met him by being added into a decarbonizing the brewing industry WhatsApp group, which is pretty cool. Uh, we actually originally recorded this episode a few months back, but the ever changing landscape of sustainability outdated the content pretty quickly. So, thank you to Chris Terry for the incredible patience he has shown, um, to re record this episode with me. Um, so to start afresh, You might be wondering, who is Chris Terry? So, Chris Terry is a researcher focusing on environmental sustainability and circular economy. He supports projects in the areas of sustainable food and beverage production and hospitality, including life cycle assessments. carbon footprinting and carbon literacy training. Chris has over a decade of international experience in hospitality management and brewery business development. He used the 2020 lockdown to study a master's in sustainability and consultancy at the University of Leeds. He's contributed to research publications for Food Service Footprint, worked for the likes of Murphy Son, North Brew Co and Ebrea Trade. Chris is a registered environmental practitioner, IEMA member, certified Cicerone, and an international beer judge. So... Welcome to the show, Chris Terry. Thanks, Chris. It's great to be back. Uh, yeah, yeah, like you say, it just, it changed so quickly, didn't it, of some of the things we were talking about on that, that, that previous recording. So, uh, yeah, good to be back and, and update the record. Yeah. I mean, for clarity, it was, it was actually mainly focused around the DRS. Um, the deposit return scheme that was happening. We were discussing at the time and then that, that landscape changed about four times in the space Yeah. to now. So, um, yeah, I think we may just kick it off. Like why is sustainability an important topic? Oh, why, I mean, why isn't it? It's, it's kind of apt that we're re recording this now, um, we've just had mercury shattering, uh, temperatures recorded all around the globe, and, um, I recently heard it. Hit, heard it, all the sort of climate change stuff reframed as, um, this won't be remembered as one of the warmest years on record, but in 25 years, this could be one of the coolest, most comfortable, least disrupted summers we ever got to enjoy. Um, and that's, you know, I haven't really worked out what to do with all of that shame and guilt and anger that that's brought up inside me that, you know, we've got to take some action. So that we can look forward to summer and we can look forward to to um having access to great ingredients and not being disrupted in our ingredients and our supply chains and I try not to be doom laden about a lot of this stuff and sustainability is a wide wide topic and there's lots of things that we're moving in the right directions of But there's some environmental things we really need to move faster on And that's why it's a really important topic that we start talking about it start taking the actions that we need to take So that we can enjoy summer not dread it Absolutely. So actually what, what made you get into sustainability in the first place? Mmm, so around 2019 I was with Ebrea trade and I was talking to venues and breweries about some of these issues about some of these environmental issues and lots of people were saying We want to do something or we know we should do something, but we've got no idea where to start. We don't know what the tools are. We don't know where the resources are. We could do with some extra money and some time to do it. So I said, let's go find out. Let's go have a look. Uh, what's out there? Let's, let's, um, uh, let's, let's see what's available. Let's see what other sectors are doing. And, and by doing the masters, that kind of fast tracked, um, uh, a lot of, uh, information to me of what, what's going on in the landscape, what the policy landscape is, what the kind of future holds for sustainability. coming out of lockdown and coming out of the masters, I've been able to. Hopefully share some of that information, um, with breweries. And so what do you do in sustainability at the moment? So I offer a carbon and accredited carbon literacy training program, um, which brings breweries and other organizations up to a level of understanding of what climate change is, what the science is behind it, why it's important to take action and what opportunities there are. Available, uh, on a local national, international level for both in individuals and groups to take action on sustainability and take action on reducing their carbon footprint. Um, and that opens the door to more technical things that I work on from lifecycle assessments of hops to, uh, carbon footprint of breweries, uh, to decarbonization strategies, and, you know, loads of other stuff in between. Um, but yeah, a, a, a broad spectrum. That's awesome. So let's go through some of the key terms of carbon literacy is a really good. Aim for this podcast is to try to get every single person onto the same. base level of understanding of the terms of sustainability. It can be quite a lot and it can be quite daunting and a lot of the times, previously I would be like, yeah, I understand what that means. And I'd be like Googling it down on my phone below. So let's, uh, let's start with the three pillars of sustainability, which is kind of like the crux of sustainability. The three pillars of sustainability are people, planet and profits. So it's not about reducing your profit to a point where your business becomes unsustainable in order to service the needs of the people and planet around you. It's not about exploiting the people and planet resources that you require to run your business in order to maximise your profit. It's about considering each of those three pillars equally. And going forward with a business that meets the demands of each of them. Excellent, so what is net zero and or net negative? So this is when we talk about carbon emissions and we, everything that we do, every activity that we participate in, every product that we buy or sell has a carbon footprint. There is carbon emissions associated with everything that we do in our everyday lives. And if we take action to reduce the emissions from that activity or from that product, we can say that it is carbon neutral, um, That the emissions, um, from the product or service have been offset or reduced to a point where they remove as much carbon dioxide from the atmosphere as they create. And you've got two strategies of doing that of reducing the amount of carbon dioxide that it produces or offsetting or taking other actions such as carbon capture or sequestration. Um, so net zero is, is balancing the, balancing the books of the two sides. Um, and then net negative is taking it even further and actually taking more carbon out of the atmosphere than putting into it. And leading on to that, what is offsetting? And next part, is it contentious? Oh, God, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's a, it's a tricky topic with lots of arguments on both sides, I think. Um, and what offsetting does is it's like buying a little permit that says I've, uh, admitted some carbon. I want to take some carbon out somewhere else, so you could buy a, uh, a tree planting scheme so that a tree is planted that captures the carbon. You could, uh, invest in a clean stove scheme that gives, uh, clean burning stoves to developing countries so they're not using, um, coal or other, um, Kind of dirty fossil fuel powered stoves for their cooking and household needs or it could be something in between there's there's lots of stuff out there and there's There are various frameworks and standards for accrediting what good carbon offsetting can be things like gold standards Show that an offsetting scheme is is worth investing in. Is it contentious? Certainly, if it's used to distract or it's being used as a means to claim carbon neutrality or carbon negativity, um, without taking the actions to reduce the carbon footprint, I think most people would agree that that's when the contention starts. Uh, that it's, it's, it's not being used responsibly. I'll, I'll throw it back to you, Chris. How, what do you think of offsetting? Yeah, very similar opinion. It, it's a natural part of having a net zero, especially brewery because it's going to be quite difficult to physically actually get there. Um, is it contentious? Only when used as a marketing ploy, I guess is exactly what you've said. There's some processes that are just very unlikely to become net zero or net negative with what is available to them Brews being one of them. So I think that offsetting is probably a natural part of getting to net zero but ultimately It's the same with everything in sustainability as long as it's Actually being done and it's being done in the right way. Yeah, yeah, I'd agree. And I think I think the message that I want to get out to breweries is that it doesn't need to be net zero or nothing tomorrow. As long as you're taking steps in the right direction and working towards a greener brewery with lower carbon emissions. If that's in the future, then great. That's fantastic. You're on the right. You're on the right track. You don't have to achieve net zero tomorrow. And offsetting, I think, is offering that shortcut that maybe just isn't. If you're moving in the right direction. I don't know if that's, that's maybe just a personal opinion. Um, but, uh, but certainly I'd like to see more conversations started about it. actually puts me straight on to the next question. So what are kilos of CO2 equivalent or CO2e? So, you'll, you might see this, um, this, this term in carbon footprints or, um, or other reports and things, and yeah, a kilogram of carbon dioxide equivalent, CO2e, is what we use to measure the carbon footprint of things, because we know that there are other greenhouse gases that are causing, uh, climate change, there's methane, there's nitrous oxide, um, in the atmosphere, and those have a much higher, what we call global warming potential, which means that they hang around in the atmosphere for a lot longer than carbon dioxide does. So, we do some clever calculations, equivalence. Of, of those other greenhouse gases to a carbon dioxide equivalent, um, and so that we can talk about things in, in just one figure rather than reporting the carbon footprint, the methane footprint, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Excellent. Yeah, really good explanation. So what is green washing and what is green hushing? So we'll start with greenwashing and this is going back to some of the things we were saying about offsetting is when you're using green claims or environmental claims as a distraction or a bit of sleight of hand to maybe make yourself look a little bit better than you actually are. Um, it's... An example I like to talk about is I For my sins, I took a flight recently and there was a glossy magazine in the back of the seat Proclaiming how the airline had reduced all of its ground operations to carbon neutral didn't mention a lot about the flights though and It was a very glossy green font, green boxes, look at how green we are, a statement that they'd made but had completely ignored, or, you know, certainly not mentioned the flights And the problem with greenwashing, for me, is that it's... It put, it's, it's making people worried about putting out claims and make, making people worried about talking about what they're doing because they're worried about being accused of greenwashing. And Green Hushing is, uh, this thing that I've only heard about in the last year or so of people actually staying quiet about what they're doing. And this is, You know, we need to, we need to come together. We need to form partnerships. We need to form collaborations. We need to, we need to have these discussions about the actions that we're taking and talking about the impacts that these actions are having. Not keeping it behind closed doors because we're worried about what the social media might say or what the press might come at us with. Um, so that's, that's green hushing and that's, that's where we are with that. There's, there's various ways of making sure that what you're saying isn't going to be accused of greenwashing, or hopefully isn't going to be accused of greenwashing, um, and a great way to start is with the CMA's, um, uh, uh, guidelines, uh, on the topic, and they set out what, um, what a green claim should be, um, the, uh, the things that you can and can't say, Okay, so now we move on to the last one of this section, what is scope 1, 2 and 3, and how do they affect a brewery? Yeah, so, with a carbon footprint, or a decarbonisation strategy, we, uh, break down the emissions from the brewery, uh, into three scopes, or, um, activities. And in your first scope, scope one, you've got direct emissions from firing off a A fossil fuel boiler from firing up your diesel powered transit vehicle, um, transport vehicles. Um, and, um, those are the direct emissions that you cause as a brewery. In Scope 2. You've got indirect emissions from the electricity and gas that you purchase from your energy supplier. And then a third scope is basically everything else. So it's everything that your suppliers do, it's everything your employees do, everything your customers do, in order to make your brewery run, watts. It's going on around the world and every and in that's that's contributing to your carbon footprint at your brewery Um, so what by breaking it down into those those three scopes we can examine them individually And target the hot spots in each area and it also helps us talk to our suppliers and say We're trying to reduce our scope three emissions. What are you doing to reduce your scope one emissions? because they their emissions might be a lot higher than than the brewery's, uh, uh, contribution to it. And the, uh, the reports are saying that Scope 3 can be 80 or 90% of a brewery's emissions. So it's really not something to be ignored. And what we need to see is people taking action on their Scope 1 and 2 so that we can get to all taking collective action on Scope 3 a lot faster. Yeah, that's it's a really nice thing. since I've been working, with Zivero, who do carbon accountancy, for breweries, I've actually get to see firsthand a lot of data, um, and it's fascinating to see, exactly right. 80 to 90% of a brewery's total emissions are the things that they purchase and, and associated with their supply chain. I actually recently did a talk. and I have this donut that I got from Zivero, unfortunately, not the delicious treat, but the chart. And. on a generalized scale, there's three biggest contributors to a brewery's emissions, and they are the ingredients that you purchase, which is about 30%, and then packaging materials that you buy, which is about another 30%, and then the company facilities, which is about Everything that's actually happening that, brewers can see, uh, that's only 15% of your total emissions. Um, and then a bit less is transport and then use of sold goods and end of life. But I think it's a really, interesting, exercise to do because often people think either transport or company facilities are probably their biggest emissions factor. I would say partly that's because what they, that's what they can see. Whereas, ingredients is something that happens downstream or upstream. Things don't really, people don't see that. But actually, of that 30% of ingredients, I think about 15 to 20% of that is the malted barley that you buy. So, it's really interesting actually. It's quite difficult because scope 3 is really hard to calculate. So, it's a lot easier to focus on your scope 1 and 2. I actually recently heard someone say that if everyone focused on their scope 1 and 2, then you wouldn't have to worry about your scope 3. which is quite an interesting, mindset, It's exactly right, yeah, it's, yeah. And, and, and, you know, brewers might be listening to this and thinking, Well, God, if everything that I'm buying in, um, I, I, I, it's completely, my carbon footprint is completely outside of my control because of how much is coming from, uh, upstream from the ingredients that I buy. I can't change the ingredients that I buy. You can have conversations with your suppliers about their scope 1 and 2 though, because if they take action to reduce, um, their direct emissions, then your indirect emissions as a brewer are going to come down. Yeah, and, and it was really interesting as well, transport for me, transport is the one that's demonized quite regularly in, the press and, and you think, if I can reduce my transport distance, then that will, better off my, carbon footprint. And I recently wrote an article, you can check it out on, uh, my website, the brew resource website, but I. I was interested because I was considering if you're a brewery and you're in the UK you should be buying your bittering hops from a UK hop producer because it will reduce that transport from, over in Yakima Valley in Washington or from Germany. And I was like, I was basically set out to write this article to be like, get your bittering hops from the UK. And so I started to do some research. A big caveat is this, as you know, Chris. There's not significant amounts of really hard, good, strong data coming from a lot of places, and a lot of it is a bit of generalization, but it was actually, better for your brewery's carbon footprint to import your hops from Germany or America than it is to have them, grown in the UK, which I, I just found like, I remember starting to be like, whoa. This is crazy. and you can check out the numbers that, as I said, nothing is like hard and fast and everything's quite generalized. It's not like farm level data available yet, but it's really interesting to see. And that's included refrigerated containers coming from, uh, Yakima. It's actually, it's actually better for the environment. So in a way, in a short term way, but yeah, it's quite interesting. And, as I said, the things in the news make you really demonize certain things when actually the, the problem is elsewhere. Um, Yeah, that's really interesting. We, you know, we started this episode talking about, um, how quickly things change and it's not so also long ago when the focus was on food miles and getting things from as local sources as possible. But you're absolutely right, Chris, sometimes going a little bit further because they've got slightly different practices in, uh, or they've got a better climate for it. and therefore they don't need as many agricultural inputs into the growing of the hops. Which means that we can get hops from abroad at a lower environmental cost than we can get from down the road. Which is crazy to think if we're just focusing on food miles. Sustainability has to be this really wide view of things. You can't just blinker in on one metric at all. Which makes things more difficult unfortunately. Yeah, it really is a bit of a minefield. we almost endlessly read negative news in regards to climate change and sustainability. Uh, and I know I speak to a lot of brewers and people in life and they often said does one person really make a difference? And to keep it relevant, do you think like one brewery can make a difference? Oh, absolutely. I think everyone can get involved in this and be talking about this. And I think we have to be talking about this as I don't think anyone gets to sit themselves out just because they're too small to make a difference. Um, and this is, that we try and push on the carbon literacy training course is that everyone, the tools and resources are out there to help everyone from individuals to group level to National, um, getting national involvement in, in movements to make a difference. And I totally get the sentiment that people feel too small to make a difference because some of the things that are talked about in climate change are so Far off in the distance and this is the the threat of the horizon that what happens today Trump's what's happening on the horizon and we're talking about rising temperature year on year. We're talking about rising sea levels. We're talking about biodiversity loss And everything is is so far in the distance but it's You know, it's going to get, it's going to get to us a lot sooner than we possibly think and the way to, um, kind of link up all of this thinking to, to feel like all of this is relevant is to start talking about it now and that's the power of the individual is to have the conversations to not trivialize, the climate change that we're seeing outside our windows and around the world is to really look at these things as, is this the future that we want? Is this the, uh, the outcome that we want from the activities, uh, that we're involved in? Do we want to be able to brew the beer that we're brewing today in the future? Then I, as an individual, need to take action to make sure that that's still the case. Yeah, and human beings are quite often reactive rather than proactive. that's probably one of the main reasons we are getting into this situation. but yeah, it's all really interesting to me because does one person make a difference? I the realistic answer is no, that one person doesn't make a difference. But, it's the collection of everyone making the effort that does make the difference. And having that mentality that I don't make the difference. It doesn't really work it's the same thing as my vote doesn't, it doesn't matter It's the same principle where actually of course it does matter in the long run But I can see why people are like well what i'm doing today isn't making a difference because it's just one thing And I also see a lot of people demonizing people who are championing sustainability for not being perfect. and they're almost using that as if person x, y, and z isn't being perfect, then, what's the point? there's a zero food waste chef, she's called Anne Marie and she had this great quote that I've seen plastered around we don't need a handful of people doing zero waste perfectly, we need millions of people doing it imperfectly. I really like that mentality of no one's trying to be perfect, you know? Absolutely, and I think this is the danger of greenwashing and the greenhushing that it's created, is that people are worried about standing up and saying, this is what we're doing as a brewery, this is what I'm doing as an individual. Um, You know, people are embarrassed to talk about, um, what they're doing because of the threat of being accused of not doing it perfectly. And we can't let perfection stand in the way of good when it comes to these actions. On an individual level, something I really like to think about is Tim Berners Lee's 10 ton lifestyle of... If everything I do has a carbon footprint, in the way that everything I eat has a calorific value, if I think of it as I've got an annual diet of 10 tons of carbon, then I can make choices that... Um, keep my, keep me under that 10 tons. So if that means that I want to keep eating a meat forward diet, then maybe I need to have a look at the size of my car and maybe switch to an electric vehicle. If I want to keep taking long haul flights, then maybe I should think about a plant based diet in order to balance out my average, um, um, And if everyone did that in the country, I mean, that's cutting two tons out of or more, um, two tons out of everyone's, Footprint in the UK. So each individual is having a huge impact on the on the wider Requirements of reducing the national carbon footprint That's really interesting. I've never heard that. It's really cool. Um, just moving on and keeping on the food theme. sustainability is often taught in like the carrot or stick method. there's the opportunity that... Sustainability creates, but there's also this seemingly now is an ever looming stick. what are your opinions on this? Do you have any ideas on what sort of opportunities sustainability can present to people and to brewers? Yeah, there's, there's huge co benefits to taking action on sustainability. Um, there's, uh, there's cost saving benefits. There's health saving benefits. There's, uh, if it's handled right, the marketing opportunity of being able to talk to consumers that want to buy, um, more environmentally consciously, um, and know that the products and services they're buying have. been bought with consideration of the people and planet around them, um, then yeah, there's definitely some opportunities to take an action on this. And what is available right now are carrots. There is pots of money, there are local resources, there are industry resources. There are people, um, like, like ourselves, Chris, out there trying to, to talk to people and say, We're ready to help you. We're, we're here. We've got some ideas. Let us come into your brewery and have a chat with you and tell you about what, um, what opportunities there are. To take action on this and yeah, the stick is the stick is there though and legislation might come in and new rules and requirements might come in in the future. And also, if we lose access to some of the brilliant ingredients that we currently have because of climate change because of the rise of pests and disease and more difficult growing conditions. Um, That's a threat of sustainability as well, so really we should be looking at these carrots and taking advantage of them as a sexer before the stick of, uh, it comes from behind and challenges us and makes it a more difficult trading conditions than they already are. Yeah, and Right now there's a lot of eco consumerism and it's on the on it's on the rise So there was a good article from the grocer. It was not that long ago It was like, a third 34% of Brits are willing to spend more on sustainable options when out in the pubs It's quite a huge statistic really Especially when Gen Z and Millennials are leading that way and the 47 of Brits percent of those are willing to invest in greener choices and what you've got to remember is one of the, in my opinion, one of the larger issues of the brewing world is that Gen Z and millennial drinkers are drinking less, especially Gen Z drinking significantly less which really would dictate the future of the market. So right now obviously it's not having a huge impact but give that 10. 15 20 years when that generation's Moving forward and now other generations are moving on you're gonna see a dwindling market So I I think that's a really important sector to try and capture quite early on And eco consumerism and the fact that they're willing to invest in green choices I think it's a huge carrot on the end of that. Um, yeah, absolutely. As people... Brewers want green skills and they want to get their staff trained up on the green skills that they need in order to think about these future prospects. Um, yeah, and just to touch on that, a Millennial Movement is that we're not seeing a diet switch to 100% plant based. What we're seeing is a rise in flexitarianism and people reducing their meat intake. So people aren't looking for this 100% perfection in their in their individual lifestyles. They're looking for the switches that need to be made that still allow them a full life. And, um, that's that's that's a great way of approaching sustainability. I think is, you know, Everything in moderation, including moderation. Yeah, I really like that. everything in moderation, including moderation. So... what are your thoughts on the threat of sustainability? I know we touched it with this stick, There's a lot coming in now. So there'll be, changes in macro policies that, directly influence business, and maybe not very specific for now because it's quite a small sector, but business in general when we've already seen the aforementioned DRS system but do you have any other examples of, uh, macro policies that would directly influence business? Yeah, I think we're gonna see more focus on SMEs. I think we've seen it trialed with larger transnational corporations of making sure that they're reporting on their carbon footprints, that they are taking regular audits of their businesses and their premises to make sure that they are as green as they possibly can be. Um, an example of this is the, is the epc. Legislation that's coming soon and landlords will have to make sure that their premises are up to a certain environmental standard of efficiency. Um, or, you know, face fines and not be able to let their premises out. So we're going to see, see these, um, these bits of legislation trickle through to us very soon, I think. Um, another one is the, uh, the, the ban on, um, uh, internal combustion engine cars, uh, 10 years. And everyone, you know, I, I, we, we drive a, um, a petrol golf. We, so we'll need to look at that In the not too distant future, uh, to make sure that we're not, um, breaking the rules. Yeah, and indirectly related to breweries will be supermarkets as well. they're getting quite a significant amount of pressure from the government now on their carbon emissions and what supermarkets. Are infamous for doing as soon as they have a problem put on them as they push that straight down their supply chain So you're seeing now that they're having requirements. the manufacturer 2030 That's there but these are going to get stricter and I believe that there's going to be a good amount of competition They're going to make their supply chain compete on, carbon emissions So It's both a threat and an opportunity because there's a threat there that supermarkets are very quickly going to be like Okay, we need you to have this net zero plan and we also need to see your current emissions what they are and then they can just compete because it's a number so they can be like well we want more from brewery a or brewery b because they're actually doing better with their carbon emissions. So I think that's It offers both a threat to the people who are very reliant on supermarkets, who aren't particularly doing, a huge amount of sustainability. But then of course, on the other side, it offers a huge opportunity to, to brewers who are, championing sustainability now and their supermarket, after supermarket contracts, I think that could be a big one for them in the future. Absolutely. Yeah. Anyone that can remember back to the early 2000s in brewing will remember how much health and safety became a massive sticking point for a lot of supermarkets. And they were asking questions of their suppliers to make sure that they've had sales recreditation or a value added. A particular ISO, um, and that's, I think, something we're going to see if it hasn't already started for the big supermarkets in the near future. We're going to see supermarkets saying, no, you've got to have a, um, carbon reduction policy in place. You've got to show us that you are green, that you have green credentials because we've got pressure. We, the supermarkets, are having pressure put on ourselves as well. I really like that parallel between health and safety and sustainability because although it feels a bit crazy now, I think that's definitely the root and that's the path that it's going on, which is really interesting. Yeah, and for brewers, there is a challenge in picking the right accreditation, I think, and, uh, you know, finding a framework that works for your brewery, and there's things out there like B Corp, and the Carbon Trust, carbon footprinting labels, and, uh, soil association marks, and, you know, If you're a brewery, which ones do you go after and which ones do you invest in? Because some of these are expensive schemes and the cost involved in meeting the requirements of some of these schemes is quite high and almost prohibitively high, depending on your business and your structure. My recommendation to brewers is to find something that works for your organization, um, and almost come up with the answer for yourself and then find a model that works rather than trying to shoehorn yourself into an accreditation because you think it's the one to go for. Develop something yourself, develop something for yourself in house and then find an accreditation that matches it. Yeah, so, leading on, like, how can breweries take action, uh, on sustainability? Let's say you're a brewery now, and you've listened to this, and you're like, Okay, I'm ready. What do you think is the first thing to do, and when should they start? Start with a conversation. Start with, um, if you're, uh, if you're, if you're working on the brewery floor, talk to, talk to your managers, uh, talk to the, to the brewery owners, um, talk to different departments. If you are running the brewery, then talk to your staff and talk to other, um, I mean, talk to your neighbours as well. Talk to people in different sexes. Talk to everyone else in the industrial estate and say, what are you doing? Is there anything that we can work together on? Um, and if you find those conversations are stalling because you don't know where to talk or how to talk about these things and you're finding a load of, um, jargon come up that you're not really sure about that you're getting right. This is what we look to tackle on the Carbon Literacy course, is talking about some of these, um, these terms and some of these, um, Options that are available, um, and breaking down some of the resources and, and looking at how breweries can approach them and how to, how they can take advantage of them. So there's some really great low hanging fruit that I think breweries can take advantage of. I think there are some local resources, there's some pots of money and grants available. Um, and sometimes they can be a little bit tricky to find, but just have a conversation with, uh, with your local authority because, um, they, you know, they've all got targets they want to meet, uh, in, in reducing, uh, carbon emissions in their area. Um, and... You know, just start with conversations. Just start with conversations among the team. Start to incorporate sustainability and carbon emissions into, um, your KPIs and your metrics that you discuss on a, on a, um, on a regular basis and talk to your neighbors as well. Talk to people in other sectors. Talk to people, um, Um, around the industrial estate, are there things that you can all invest in together and all benefit from? Can you all kind invest in a, a solar panel array or a, an anaerobic digestion or, come together to purchase more environmentally for any packaging? Um, I think start with conversations. And this is something again, that we, we look out on the carbon literacy training courses, how to talk about some of these things and how to, um, how to, how to understand some of the jargon that surrounds these things and then go and access the opportunities that are available. How about you, Chris? What's what your top tips for brewers? Yeah, absolutely Of course, I'm operations focused, so my tip is to start with a simple but powerful concept, resourcefulness. Consume less and produce more with what you have. I define resourcefulness with five key metrics, so your brewhouse efficiency, water consumption, electricity consumption, gas consumption, and CO2 consumption. Now that you have these, you need to follow like a basic continuous improvement model, which is measure, benchmark, reduce. So now you have your five key metrics and you've measured them. you then benchmark them against either your own results or other breweries results, and then you can start to reduce because you can basically just see where that low hanging fruit is and where you should focus your attention to maximize your rewards. As I said, really simple. So my company, which is Brew Resourceful. Now, I've appreciate it's probably the second time I've plugged that in this episode. but the Brew resource tool has loads of free tools, tips and information on becoming more resourceful. It also offers a free benchmarking tool to compare your breweries with over 50 craft breweries, which is pretty sweet. Another tip would be don't be afraid of sustainability being profitable. Just like you mentioned earlier, Chris, the three pillars of sustainability. Profit isn't a dirty word and actually should work in line with PLANET or with your sustainability program. You know, a really simple example I always use is, If you increase your brewhouse efficiency by 5%, you've just reduced your malt consumption by 5%. That will impact your cash flow that month because you buy 5% less malt. Malted barley is one of the biggest contributors to your business's carbon footprint. So, about 15% of your total emissions come from your malted barley consumption. So reducing your malt reduces your brewery's carbon footprint measurably. And none of what I'm saying actually requires any financial investment. Just invest your time into wasting less. And, As for when to start this, it has to start today. the idea of waiting till tomorrow is kind of why it's become such an important topic. action has to start today. 100%. Yeah, I agree with that. And, you know, if we're in a situation where we'd started a lot of these actions 10, 15 years ago, we could, we could, you know, we can maybe take the foot off the brake now, but the foot off the accelerator now. Um, but that's not the situation we're in. And, uh, we're on course for, uh, some sweltering hot next few years. Um, because of human caused climate change and something needs to be done. Amen to that. So Chris, I mean, is there anything else you'd like to add to this pod? No, uh, it's, it's, it's just thanks for having me on, uh, again. And, hmm. yeah, really, uh, really enjoying the series of people that you're getting in and speaking to and, uh, and, and getting great messages out there to breweries. So, yeah, full, uh, full support for what you're doing, Chris. And, um, yeah, hopefully, uh, see you, um, see you for a pint maybe at London. We're off to the festival soon. Yeah, absolutely. And, thanks again for coming on twice and only getting one amount of airtime. Heh, really do appreciate that. and I'll definitely grab you for a beer. that sounds great to me. And, yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I really hope everyone enjoyed today's episode. Of course, if there's any opportunity for you to hit that follow or subscribe button and join over a hundred followers that we currently have, I think it's great. definitely helps me out. I really hope that the information you're getting and the content you're listening to is, is good and you're taking stuff away. So please, you know, follow, tell your friends. We're a small industry, so it doesn't take many people, hopefully they can benefit from this as well. Um, so yeah, thank you so much for everyone and yeah, enjoy the next episode. See you later.