Ep 19 - How To Progress Your Career - Adam Mills

We deep dive into key ways to progress your career both in brewing and if you want to move industry. 

Adam Mills is the host of 'Adam Makes Beer' a hugely successful youtube channel promoting professional brewing, he is also the Director of Brewing Operations at Sonder Brewing in Ohio, US. 

In this episode we discuss:

• Educational growth habits
• Personal/professional traits for success
• Developmental steps to growing as a leader

Chapters 

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:39 Recap of Episode 18: The Brewing Mystery
01:21 Solving the Brewing Problem
04:41 Shoutouts and Listener Engagement
06:03 Sponsor Highlight: Simpsons Malt
07:20 Guest Introduction: Adam Mills
08:13 Adam Mills' Brewing Journey
14:00 Challenges and Rewards in Brewing
19:39 Professional Development in Brewing
27:22 Learning and Networking in the Brewing Industry
40:05 The Power of Praise in Leadership
40:51 Effective Managerial Communication
41:50 Coaching and Developing Team Members
43:02 The Importance of Soft Skills in Brewing
45:48 Self-Awareness and Personal Growth
49:46 Parenthood and Character Development
54:29 The Role of Honesty in Management
01:01:55 Handling Mistakes and Accountability
01:08:48 Final Thoughts and Reflections

🌱 Simpsons Sustainability Report
🎥 Adam Makes Beer YouTube Channel
📷 Adam's Instagram
📨 chris@brewresourceful.com
💼 My LinkedIn
📷 My Instagram

Transcript

0:13

Welcome back, listeners. Episode 19 is here and I'm super excited to share it with you. It slots perfectly into the Modern Brewer Podcast mantra, which is, of course, discussing how to become a better brewer, not how to make better beer. In this episode, we will be discussing how to progress your career in the brewing industry. But before we get into that, of course, it's going to be time for the big reveal. For those who are new to the podcast or missed last week's episode, you must go back and listen to the episode 18, Can You Solve This Issue, Instead of the usual interview style podcast, I went solo and gave all the details to a real world, interesting brewing problem. In what was labelled by some as a murder mystery for brewers. As promised, I will now run through the correct answer. So, if you don't want any spoilers, make sure you go back and listen to episode 18 if you haven't already. I would love to thank All of those who got in contact with me with their answers. I was kind of blown away by how well everyone approached it and the volume of people who got in contact. So, as I discussed in episode 18, there was some missing information, but enough to solve that particular problem. Most people did get the cause of the intense isoamyl acetate and solvency notes that were causing the dumped batches as a temperature based issue. If you remember, the temp probe above the cone was reading 3 degrees lower than the sample tap located above. So this shows that there is indeed a temperature issue. At this stage, a logical approach is to calibrate the temperature probe to ensure it's reading correctly, which a lot of people said. And in most cases, that might catch it. In this case, the temperature probe was absolutely reading correctly. In the information I gave you, the crucial part to solve this issue was the FV numbers. 1 was the worst, then followed by 2 and 3, with FEs 4 and 5 producing OK beer. So to prevent this issue from happening again, you would have to go and inspect the chiller, where you would have found the root cause of this issue, which was in fact a blocked filter. Just a few weeks before, there had been a fairly substantial glycol leak, and when topping up the system, the person doing so had dispensed the new glycol mix into a bucket that had residual dust and debris in, which was working its way through the system and blocking the chiller. The tank furthest away from the outlet of the chiller was, of course, Fe1. And now you can start to piece together how that issue started to go from Fe1, to 2, to 3, and eventually would have gone, probably, to 4 and 5. For me, what was really interesting about this problem was the location of the temp probe was making the issue really difficult to catch. As I said, the temp probe for the tank itself was sat just above the cone, and, of course, the inlet for the glycol was also just below, that point. So on FV1, it was actually chilling the right portion of beer. So what they ended up doing was actually manually inspecting. This is once the problem was solved. They had a beer that was at eight degrees. They actually got on a ladder, went up to the top and temperature probed the very top of the beer itself to see where the difference between that and where that temperature probe Was reading and that temperature probe at the bottom was reading 8 degrees C at the time and the manual check at the top of the Tank was 20 degrees C So this shows that there was almost little to no cooling happening at the very top of the tank So this meant that during fermentation there could have been temperatures greater than 35 degrees Celsius Now this is going to be causing quite intense isoamyl acetate It'll also going to be causing intense solvent ethyl acetate and maybe something else as well So, that was really a fascinating catch. What I found really interesting about the problem, and I think a lot of people echoed this, is how the perceived hop aroma was just not there. And that's a part of this problem I don't have the answer to. I'd be really interested to hear what everyone's thoughts are on it. I would say a big hats off to that brewery, cause they did catch this problem and they did solve it. And, as I said in the podcast before these things happen in breweries. Sometimes you get away with them and sometimes you don't and in this case, they just didn't. as I promised, those who got it, who got in contact with me, who got the majority right, were Ben Wood from Thornbridge Brewery, Ricardo Solis is an IBD learning partner, Sam Wells from Pacific Coast Drinks and Sam Thompson from Lagunitas. But a big special mention to Tom Virtue of Beavertown who not only got it right on the first guess but was also the first person to get it right. It's a really great catch, identified the FE numbers being the key bit of information to catch the problem and said I'd go and check the glycol chiller, So that's an for me. That was a world class find so yeah big shout out to tom virtue as I said, the feedback for this episode was actually really positive so I absolutely will be bringing that style of episode back. So please, if anyone has any interesting problems, please get in contact. And either I can share it myself like I did on the last episode, or we can go through it together on an episode. I'm happy either way. I appreciate not everyone wants to be, um, associated with that sort of, with an issue. So I'm happy to do, read it out anonymously. So yeah, please do get in contact through the usual channels. LinkedIn, um, is definitely the best place to catch me or on emails, which is chris at brewresourceful. com. So yeah, please get in contact and I look forward to hearing some of the challenging problems people have solved in breweries. But before we get into the episode, I'd like to take a moment to talk about friends of the podcast Simpsons Malt, the largest family owned malting company in the world. Their 160 year passion for quality has given them global respect amongst both the brewing and distilling communities. As regular listeners know, I'm a huge champion of sustainability and Simpsons Malt's 2023 sustainability report highlights the company's outstanding commitment to people and the planet. One of the biggest takeaways from the report for me was actually the vertical integration of their supply chain. This incredibly unique approach to malting means they forge long term relationships with their malting barley suppliers by working directly with them. Shortening the traditional malting supply chain to simply farmers, Molster Brewers. I mean, having long term relationships with their farmers makes total sense, right? It means Simpsons Malt has total control over the barley that enters their molting sites and also enables them to work with farmers to drive sustainability throughout the supply chain. I'm going to link the sustainability report in my show notes. Please check it out and remember, choosing suppliers who are reducing their emissions in turn reduces yours. So here we go. This episode is called how to progress your career in brewing and I have a really great guest with me to go through it. I've been on and off chatting with Adam Mills since I started the Modern Brewer Podcast. He has a big following in the States on his YouTube channel, Adam Makes Beer. on top of his impressive YouTube channel, he's also the Director of Brewing Operations at Sonder Brewing. So, we're gonna go through everything you need to know. To progress your career in the brewing industry. So welcome to the show, Adam Mills. Thanks for having me on. No problem, dude. Yeah, it's great. Uh, I know we've had a bit of a back and forth on LinkedIn and stuff, and I'm a big fan of the YouTube channel. So thanks a lot for coming on Adam. Um, for those who haven't subscribed to your, um, YouTube channel, could you just give the listeners a bit of a heads up on all the great things you've been up to so far? Yeah, definitely. Uh, back in 2022, I started releasing a pro side. Brewing YouTube content and the the goal was to really Kind of in some ways to make pro side brewing information more available, especially in in in the video space. There's there's a lot of different podcasts. Um, there's a lot of homebrewing YouTube content out there. Um, but I wanted to start getting into that space a little bit and just showing people what I'm doing, you know It's it's a little bit of a hurdle when you do it one to start recording yourself, uh is an intimidating thing because Um at the time I was 44 and some of the some of the angles on a 44 year old man doing manual labor Is not always the most pleasant But, uh, so that's one hurdle. And the other is actually showing people what you do, because I don't know if you've ever, uh, heard of this concept or not, because sometimes people online don't like to be very nice. Um, and so it's, you're kind of exposing yourself, your practices. So there's a bit of a hurdle to get over, but it's, it's just been, it's just been really exciting and it's just opened up a. A great community of people to me that that continues to grow. Uh, both people that are actively on the pro side, uh, homebrewers that are looking to get into the industry, um, and different things like that. So, uh, really, I, I kind of want to have like a, a, a behind the curtain, uh, scenario where I can show you what I'm doing at that time. I, I never try to come off like, I am the authority, and I always try to approach it with a bit of humility because this industry should treat teach you humility. Because first of all, um, I think the best we can do is maybe color outside the lines a little bit. Um, we've been, we're all standing on the shoulders of giants, right? And so, uh, I think it's it's an it's an through the proper lens, we should be humble because we have all had so much given to us. And, and that's some of the spirit of that YouTube channel, wanting to, uh, share things that have been shared with me, um, and, and trying to help people navigate their way, uh, through the, the craft brewing industry. Yeah, I love that. Um, I mean, there's a reason that I I'm on a podcast. I definitely haven't got the face for a YouTube channel, Adam. So you went on that one. I don't know about that either, but you know, it's, it's, it's one of those things. And then my, my day job is I'm a director of brewing operations at, uh, Sonder Brewing outside of, uh, Cincinnati, Ohio. And we, uh, we did 6, 000 barrels last year. We're going to be doing 7, 000 this year. We've got a, uh, a team of, uh, seven folks in the brewery and we. throughout the state of Ohio, a little bit into Kentucky. And so I've been there since August. And so this is kind of a, an interesting time for me because, uh, the beginning of my career, I taught at risk kids. So kids that were expelled or court ordered out of their original school to another. So the first 10 years of my career, I did that. And now that I've kind of progressed in my brewing career. I'm at the point where I have a larger team to work with and it really gets me back into some of that professional development, staff development work, uh, that I love so much. And, uh, and yeah, that's been my path. I've been brewing professionally for, I think, 13 years. And, uh, yeah, that's kind of the nutshell about me. Yeah, I love that. Um, that's uh, you know Teaching the kids who get kicked out of school have had difficult backgrounds and stuff Something's very close to to my heart in my home as well. So really respect you for that Um, thanks for the uh for the uk listeners a u. s. Barrel of beer because I was like 6 000 barrels I was quickly googling what the hell is 6 000 u. s. Brewers barrels. I don't even know what It's 7 000 154 hectoliters for those who are, uh, 4 million hectoliters. No, that is not a stupid concept. A hundred liters. Who would look, who would work in that? Well, this is at Sander. This is the first time that I've had to work with metric because my boss came from new Glarus, which is very German inspired. And so his entire brewing career was on the metric side. So it's, it's strange. Now I always used to take smaller measurements in metric. Um, because it's, it is obviously a superior system. Um, but my brain is still, my brain is still broken on, on pounds and quarts and different things like that. Right? Yeah. It's uh, I don't know myself, but it's the language I use. It's like we weigh ourselves in the UK on, in stones. And I remember trying to explain that to someone and they were just like, what the hell is a stone? I was like, I actually have no idea. And the more I think about it, the more completely weird it is. Like. What's stone? Which stone? Oh yeah, it's so funny. Yeah, stone is one that I thought, like, I, I, from my perspective, I thought it was something that was like used in the past and was like no longer used. So you don't, you, so you're, you don't weigh yourself by, by kilograms, you weigh yourself by stone. Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah. I love it. Daft is what it is. Um, not the point of this podcast though, Adam, we are already digressing. This is a true, this is going to be a good look into what the rest of this is going to be like. Um, so yeah, when we were discussing the podcast together, actually over as LinkedIn, as I said, you wanted to discuss professional development. So like, why is that? And why is that important to you? And why do you think it's important to the listeners? Yeah, and it touches a little bit on, the first portion of, of my career. I got into, I got into teaching and, and ended up being in my entire time in teaching was working with at risk kids, which wasn't necessarily my intention, but it was, uh, it was, it was a really powerful, uh, time, very challenging, uh, definitely taught me a lot about myself, but I definitely have a, uh, a heart for, uh, wanting to help. other people. And when I got into the brewing industry, it's a tough sell when you're trying to, when you're trying to go to sleep at night, thinking about, okay, what, what good am I doing in the world? When I was teaching at risk kids, I was like, I'm teaching at risk kids. Uh, and then when you start making beer professionally, you're like, I'm making beer. Now, interestingly, people are far more interested in you when you are making beer as opposed to when you're trying to help disadvantaged kids. Um, but that's, that's a whole separate conversation, but, um, but no. And so as, as I've progressed through my career, I've, gotten to the, gotten to the point, um, from a managerial standpoint that I have a staff to work with, but also, um, falling on my face enough and making enough mistakes, whether they be in practice or perspective with my own career. Um, it puts me in a space where I want to, if I can help shorten somebody else's learning curve, um, if I can help stand off some of the sharper edges, uh, in the industry for somebody, um, I, I, I'm very excited about that. So, yeah. we chatted maybe a bit before this show actually, but it it's interesting in in our in our industry You get a lot of social currency from being a brewer Um, as you said, people are quite interested in but that effect does wear off Um, and it is something that you know, it doesn't last forever and it isn't enough Um, but it's probably enough in the short term But then it gets to a point where I kind of as you said it wears off and you're like, okay Well, what do I do next and how do I get there? And I'm hoping that's, that's why when you first said it, I was like, that's such a fascinating concept for a podcast for this, because, once that sound of effect wears off, how do you actually get To that next level. And what's that next level look like? Sure. and for some people, there's, there's milestones set up in their head. Okay, so first of all, uh, I'm in the industry. Okay, that's the first gold star. Second gold star, I've written my own recipe. I've made my own beer. People are litera lit Actually drinking my beer, right? Or now I'm head brewer or now I own my own place. And I think there needs to be more than just that vision because I know for me, I set up this notion in my, in, in, in my head where the goal for me was, so I went directly from home brewing. Into a head brewer position, which is wild. Um, probably a bad choice by, uh, the people that hired me, but you know, it is what it is and I'm still in the game. Right. So anyhow, um, I always thought what was going to validate me as a brewer. What, what me making it was, was winning medals and growing in esteem, right. And it was very much, and sometimes it's embarrassing to say, but it was, my goals were very much. Uh, ego driven, right? It was validating me as a brewer, right? And, uh, and I quickly found that, um, there's no scratching that itch. Uh, that's a, that's a bottomless pit. Um, my buddy and I were talking one time and we're like, so at that point, you could enter like five beers or whatever and in World Beer Cup, whatever it was, and we're like, okay, so you enter five beers and World Beer Cup and you win five golds. How long are you happy? Like actually happy and how long until the shine falls off. And then in my mind it was, well, then I actually have to do it again the next year because that would mean if I didn't do it again, the next year, it was a fluke the first year. And then you realize that you're talking like a crazy person, right? Um, and that you're actually aiming at the wrong thing. Um, and that's when some of that shift started happening for me when, when the industry started teaching me, uh, a little humility. Okay. Yeah, I love that. It's so funny. You said that and I was mad everything you said it was exactly how I started myself as well Like get in the industry put my foot in the door Get myself a recipe and then work towards trying to get a a medal or an achievement Um, I think there's one here, it's like Brewer of the Year Award and stuff, and I was like, alright, All of these are just completely personal driven, and to some extent to feed your ego, which, I am maybe ashamed to say, but not at the same time. I think when I was getting in the industry and when I was getting up, I definitely had an ego that I needed to work on, um, to make myself feel good. But actually, since then, I think the most rewarding parts of my, uh, brewing career have always been from Working with people and the, seeing people progress and seeing people grow and seeing, people make better and more informed decisions become better people is actually been 10 times more rewarding and more long lasting as a feeling of rewarding than that, that quick fix, which you get from, as you said, writing a recipe or, winning an award. So what do you think? like on the high level, what do you think like the primary drivers for professional development? Yeah, I think first and foremost, there is a period of time where I thought to myself, well, professional development is a brewery sending me to a conference and it can be that. Um, but I think, uh, the older I get, The more I try to hold myself to a standard of, um, personal responsibility, okay? Um, if, if I'm not learning, that's on me. Uh, information is free. There is, there's, there's free podcasts. Uh, there's, there's a ton of resources, um, and you have to find time to, to carve it out because I, I've, there's been, uh, there's been over the years, people I've worked with where they're, they're going in and they've hit the point with, uh, The brewing thing where it's a job. All right, like you've learned everything you can learn in that brewery So you could go to the next one? But the the the the bad news is is in six months You're gonna be pretty much done with learning everything you have to learn there, too Like once you've gotten to a certain level you can level up, but it's not the same. It's not the same You know, it's not the same level of increase, right? Because you're already coming in with the base of knowledge. You really have to chase it yourself. Um, and, and I, I think that comes in multiple forms, pursuing the information conferences can be great. Um, but you know, before, before we went live, we are talking about master brewers association. If you are fortunate enough to have. Subscription to the NBA website. There are a ton of research papers on their dig in. Um, there's podcasts on, on everything. Dig in own that for me, my commute. So my wife and I have six kids and so I have to find space for me to do my education and, and for me, that's, that's podcasts on the commute. Um, And so you need to, you need to take advantage of that when you can, um, and I think it also ties into like a more authentic, a more authentic look on what we, on what we call, professional networking. I think networking in the brewing industry can be additionally complicated because, uh, networking opportunities or opportunities to get to know other people in our industry are always on one side, on one end of the spectrum, we can call them booze fueled or or at least there's booze involved somehow in there, right? Yeah. And, um, I think we need to take a little bit more of a, Bart Watson from Brewers Association was talking about from an economic standpoint, the, the craft beer is maturing, and I think we actually need to be as the labor of craft beer as the brewers of craft beer, we also need to be maturing and the way that we look at this field, right? Um, and sometimes that is, maybe, uh, Making sure you're going out, meeting people, um, making sure that it's not always booze fueled, right? Have, have a few pints, maybe skip a couple rounds, but actually make connections with people. Um, and making connections with people that do things that you don't do. When you do a collaboration, go to another brewery, Yeah, maybe have a pint or something, but actually be breaking down the space, breaking down the processes, asking questions, getting into another brewer's space is one of the most impactful ways of like instant knowledge acquisition, right? Because every production space has different workarounds, different problems, and different solutions. Um, so I do think that's, that's one way that we can, we can kind of take that. take that responsibility of professional development, uh, in, in a little bit different direction. Yeah. It's such a great point. Uh, it's, it's actually, I find it really complex subject around alcohol in the industry. Um, I, again, I, I go back reference back myself when I was younger and the industry was in the UK was, I think we're, they always say we're about 10 years behind them, I know, I don't really know how true that is anymore, but we were, uh, The UK was in a huge boom, right? It was just, you couldn't do anything wrong. You put a beer out, it sold out. It was, it was a good time to be in the industry. Um, but at the same time that meant people, we were going to beer festivals all around Europe and it was just a case of drinking was a part of it really. And it was maybe a, quite a primary part. I think I look back on those times and think I really missed out on quite a lot of what would have been really useful educational, um, exposure and the fact exactly right. Like, reaching out my professional development rather than just my personal development or trying to make friends, but actually trying to make like professional connections would have been a lot stronger for me at the time. But it is quite tricky because you are constantly surrounded by not only, um, drinks, but also I always find there's a level of expectation. I, I don't know if anyone has ever said the words, but I think when you're there, people are drinking it and there's almost a question if you're not. And I find that really fascinating part of our industry. Um, people want to know. So I, I have developed, um, and finally figured out I have some food allergies and I have a relatively. a relatively serious, uh, gluten intolerance. Um, and, uh, so when I go to festivals and I say that I can't drink, people, even when you say no, people say, is there something wrong? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? Because what's wrong, and I get it, and again, I'm not trying to sound like it's not coming from a judgy place or something like that. But I do think we have to be honest about the fact that, regular there. Maybe even just regular, but I'll stick to regular heavy consumption is not good for you, right? Like, we need to be we need to be responsible with with with how we're treating ourselves, especially in an industry that so physical, we rely on our bodies for these jobs, and so yeah, the the health dynamic of it is, is a part two. But, when you go into those situations, like one of the things I've really tried to do is, And something that I found a lot of value in is when I reach out to raw material suppliers and I get ahold of people in the lab, I like to talk to them and chat them up and find out what they're passionate about. And then I go to conferences and I go to booths and I have killer conversations with their nerds, right? Cause I'm a nerd too. And so that's, it's a, trade show used to be just for me, just kind of cruising around, looking at stuff and grabbing free beers. But now, like, as, as I've grown, I'm like, I have access to because people just don't bring salespeople. You know what I mean? They'll bring technical people to, uh, for, for the trade room. And so really, get those cards, get those contacts, um, and, and hit people up with questions. Um, because that's a, that's another actual, very personal growing that explicitly professional side network, Yeah, definitely. And the educational growth habits for, how to progress your career, I think have to kind of come from a, quite a low budget way, because it's often when you have the least amount of budget is when you're just starting in an industry. Um, we don't need to talk too much about. The pay level in the, in the brewing industry is not, it's not substantially high. So your entry level positions are fairly, they're fairly lowly paid in a lot of places. So your budgets then become very limited. And so you can't really subscribe necessarily as an individual to, let's say, the master brewers or the BA or, um, self fund the IBD. So if you can't get that, then absolutely these, these opportunities for trade shows. Um, I think the podcast, so, I talk about it quite a lot. Um, But that mbaa podcast is For me one of the greatest resources for a craft brewer. I think it's just it's unbelievably high standard of qualities cutting edge research in a field this Couldn't be more relevant to us. There's there's plenty of free resources out there uh, you just have to You Yeah, and so I wouldn't think the budget should really necessarily constrain you. But if you were to have some budget, then I think like the Brewers Association is a really good example of a good organization that has a lot of wide breadth of information. And of course, the MBAA as well. But I think they give enough away on the podcast, you could probably get away with that one. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But a good one is time, right? So I, I would definitely have said it myself, you hear it quite often is, I don't have the time. to, to manage this. you said it, Adam, you know, you got six kids, um, you got a family. So, uh, how, how do you manage outside of, I know you said you listen to your commute and, uh, you listen to podcasts and stuff on your commute, but do you set aside any other time for professional sort of educational growth habits? Yeah. So, I, I'm in a little bit of an interesting space right now because, because I, it's since, August 2023. Oh my goodness. I'm going to sound crazy and old. It's 2024, right? It is. Yeah. Okay. All right. So it was August, 2023 when I started at Sonder. And so I'm still kind of in that window because my, my job is both, uh, split between being on the floor and doing managerial things. And so I'm still very much in, in the growth curve portion of my development. at this new brewery. Um, and so that has kind of driven a lot of that. So anytime you go from job to job, you should be just sucking up information like a sponge. Um, hopefully you go to a place where they have good SOPs, high quality standards, things like that. And that's something that I feel very good about working with Sander is they do things at a very high level. And so I'm just I'm kind of immersed in it daily, but you know, like I said before, there's, I keep, and it goes to, it goes to the, the investment in, in making, friends in the industry and not just drinking buddies, but people that you talk beer with people that you can share beer with. Um, I would encourage people for their, their networking stuff to turn it more into, Hey, listen, I'm bringing two of my beers, you bring two of your beers and we're going to sit down and we're going to break this thing down. Like, we're really going to get down on this thing and try to try to break it down. Because for me, um, Having access to people that are also of the same mindset as me. So if I have a new technique, a new recipe, a new approach, I bounce it off my trusted inner circle of of brewers. Right. And you need to cultivate that group. And sometimes you just call, and you catch up. I mean, you're actually friends, but then it's like, all right, what are you doing? No, man. it's been, it's been three months since we talked beer. What do you, what are you doing new? Because I try to surround my, myself with people that are always doing something new because that's really, cause you always need to be chasing. There, there, there's no point. You've never arrived in this industry. And, uh, because I think that was one of the areas where I was aiming incorrectly at the beginning of my career, I set up these these these milestones and thinking, Oh, once I do this, I'm done. That's it. But for me, it's much more. My focus isn't hitting the target or it's aiming at it. It's not hitting the bullseye. It's aiming at the bullseye when you're when you're constantly aiming, you're constantly getting better, right? And it kind of feeds that hunger. So I like to have that mindset with it. And I like to surround myself with people that have that mindset. So for me, uh, as a somebody that's a full time brewing job and somebody that is, making a lot of content on YouTube, I like to surround That keeps me very busy, but, um, I do, I try to keep it to the network that I've developed of actually like inner circle, close brewing friends. Um, I have found a massive benefit of doing the content creation, getting me access to people I maybe have never would have talked to otherwise. Um, but taking advantage of the. times in your day, whether it be commute, whether it be the gym, uh, anything like that, just finding those opportunities to plug that stuff in. You do have to give yourself an opportunity to, shut down a little bit and actually, listen to something else or, but you know, I, I think we can always find some space in there. Um, so yeah, yeah, I, I, I really like that. It's that dead time. I always used to call that as well. The commute is just dead time, but really good time to fill it with, uh, some information. Um, doesn't, again, it doesn't have to be the brewing world. It can be, I used to listen to a lot of leadership and coaching podcasts and stuff. Help me, um, with any, any sort of managerial aspects of my job as well. I, I think for me, one, uh, I just, from my life. one of the biggest things that happened to me is when I started to learn more efficiently as well to make, sort of reduce the time. So I don't know, there's this very simple, I think it's very simple anyway. That like there's three ways of learning and you're either you're part one, two or three, or maybe majority one or two. Um, and it's like auditory, visual and kinesthetic. So auditory is where you basically you, you have to have things spoken to you for them to, And you have to then relay them in words in your head. Um, a visual learner is very much as it says on the tin, you're very like visual and someone has to, if someone's talking to you or something that you have to build a picture of it in your head and then kinesthetics, you have to actually physically do it. And as I found that I really kind of didn't struggle through school, but I was, it was very hard for me to be good at school, like very hard. When I got into brewing, I could visualize and I could do things with my hands. And I was like, this combination makes me a quick learner, like a very powerful learner. And I almost stopped, I learned that I actually can't almost learn auditorily. So that means that if someone was speaking to me and like saying, Oh, this is how you do this, you do this, then you do this. I'd have to stop them and be like, Okay, can we just go and see it? Can you show me what to do? Yes. Because I need to see this thing in my, like, visually. Otherwise, I, it just goes literally in one ear and out the other. Or I spend the entire time of them talking, trying to build the picture in my head and visualize it. To the point I'd like, I'd actually look away. I like you looking up in that, like looking up and whilst they're talking to me, they think this guy's so rude. I was like, no, I'm just trying to, um, yeah, I thought that was really good. So it's a simple test you can do online. I think, I mean, it's, and I think I remember doing it and it was like almost 0 percent auditory. And I was just like this, that really helped me understand that. I mean, okay. I was listening to the podcast, but I was then going away and visualizing things as well. And visualizing my cycle and stuff as well. So. I think that's been, that's been some of the benefit of the, so, uh, on, on the YouTube channel, on Adam makes beer, you can go to playlists and it'll have full brew days, tutorials. And I mean, that's the stuff that's my, that's my. highest watt stuff, you know what I mean? Because people, it's one thing to tell people something, but for them to actually physically see me doing it, I, I went to, uh, the Ohio craft brewers conference the other day or a couple months ago, whatever. And as soon as I walked in the hotel, a guy came up to me and he said, I hired my, one of my good friends to be the brewer of this new brewery that we are opening. And, uh, It was the worst decision I ever made. He never made an ounce of beer for me. And he said, I went online and I watched your, your brew days over and over and over again. And he said, I was able to make beer, get beer on tap and get the business launched. And that's, that's exciting, right? But there is, even though it's just seeing, but you can actually see what's happening with the equipment and how it's working. being handled, right? Um, it's a, it's a, it's a very powerful thing. Understanding how you learn, um, and then being able to find those resources, uh, that, that scratch that itch. So yeah, I agree completely. Yeah. That's very rewarding. Yeah. Someone's managed to start a brewery on the back of your YouTube channel. That's cool. Um, What do you think are like the common traits, like professional or personal traits, or that you see in people who are progressing their career or, have progressed their career? Yeah, yeah. Um, I, I think that you can, you can talk about the things that everybody wants to hire, right? So first of all, people say, um, Good working or, uh, good attitude, hardworking, willing to learn. Okay. So that's like the nutshell everybody throws into it, but to, to kind of take it to, to kind of take it to another level, um, One of the things and this might sound a little bit like from from a leadership standpoint But I think it plays in like if you want to grow yourself in the industry If you want to be seen as a leader, you need to show leadership traits, right? And So just off the top. Yeah, I mean you need to have those things but But some things that have served me very well throughout the years and again, nothing that I was innately given. Um, it's, it was learned through failing, but I think there's tremendous power to watching and listening to the people that you work with or your supervisor. Or if you're in the supervisory position, right? Is watching and listening. To your people and that might seem like, like very, very basic, but if you watch and listen attentively, people will tell you exactly how they want to be handled. Okay. Um, and one of the keys to that is personally, we have to not be self focused, right? Um, I found one of the biggest stress drivers in. In my time in the industry, whether it be teaching or brewing, is when I am too self focused, right? So, we have to, you can use the analogy of, don't have the phone in selfie mode. Put the pic, have the camera facing outward, right? Spend less time thinking about yourself, more time focused on the people around you. And watching and listening because they will tell you how they want to be led or they will tell you how they want to be worked with, right? Um, and I, I think that's very, very impactful. One of the things that has served me very well over the years is doing that and then giving what I think are impactful. Praise impactful, honest praise. And I think some of the key points with this is, and sometimes when people miss the mark, I've, I've been in a situation where, uh, uh, we had a crazy shift. It was terrible. Everybody knew it was terrible. And somebody is like, amazing job. You guys, that was amazing. And they're clapping and stuff. And everybody knows that's not true right now. You got through. That's, that's good. But it's absolutely unbelievable to me how people grow toward, it's like if you've ever seen one of those pictures where there's a plant and there's a window over to the side and the plant has leaned over toward the, the sunlight coming in the window, people will do that to you, whether you are in a leadership position or not. If you give them. Honest, timely, and specific praise for the things that you'd like to see. Okay. Um, whether it be how they're interacting with you. So like a case in point, I've had situations where managers, uh, have done something, uh, have had, had an interaction with me that I really appreciated. At one point manager said to me, uh, how's everything in your world today? And that's a different question than how's it going? That's a question feels a little bit better and actually felt like, Oh, I can actually tell somebody how my day is like, he's actually asking this, right? Um, and so from, uh, from a managerial standpoint, um, when I see something that I love, um, I don't make a huge deal out of it. It needs to happen probably before the day is over. Or sometimes if it's right at the end of the shift and I missed the person before they leave, they're going to get a text from me. But, um, I said, I noticed that you did this. This is great because it serves this team this way and I appreciate the hell out of it. And then fist bump, handshake out on the back, one of those things and walk away. It's very simple, right? And you can actually coach. behaviors out of people by seeing them. You can, I'm very big on seeing more in people than they see in themselves. Right. Um, and, uh, I think you can actually coach behaviors out that aren't even there. Right. So just even if you want somebody to be, um, More dedicated, let's say, right? You could take the smallest thing. That's barely an example of dedication and say, I noticed that I appreciated it because of this, that was awesome. This bump, whatever you and you'll see people grow into that space. Now, sometimes you actually have to explain to people what those things look like. Right. Um, so you actually have to flesh out what, what I see and why I want to see that. Right. But whether that be from a, from a leadership position, um, or from a, uh, just a coworker standpoint, when it comes from a coworker standpoint, people take it as gratitude. Right? Like they don't, they don't see it as being managed. They say, wow, I work with somebody that appreciates me, right? Um, and I think a lot of times we think that we need to be the authority and especially in the brewing industry, it's the authority from the standpoint of knowledge. Knowledge is great. But there's a heck of a lot of people that have moved into management area because they're knowledgeable about brewing, but they have no idea how to work with people, right? And there's, there's an issue there, right? And so anytime we can hone these soft skills, I think we're going to be putting an exponent on our capacity for growth in this industry because where there are Where there aren't those leadership skills, where there aren't those communication skills, where there's those vacuums, your value maximizes when you actually bring that to the team. Absolutely. And I really want to echo one of those, well, a few of those points, but definitely the one is a good brewer does not make a good manager. And that thinking needs to, needs to move. I can see it, especially in a smaller team, because that technical knowledge you rely on to navigate you through what is quite a complex world of brewing. And it can be easy to be like, well, they're good at brewing. Therefore, we promote them so they can make the decisions. But making decisions and managing people are two just worlds apart. They're not even, They're not even in the same arena in my they're not even the same sport in my opinion. Um, And we often really focus on oh, they're a great brewery. We have great technical knowledge And therefore they get promoted and stuff and it's just not the right way of going about it um, I also really like you know You can you can give praise even if you're not a manager manager doesn't have to give praise if you're a co worker if you know Whatever whatever whatever level of brewery you are at, just saying nice things to someone about the things you've seen And being honest about it and being like, yeah, that was great. Um, and even doing to your manager as well By the way, it can also be really nice. Um Because it can be a thankless task sometimes because you're doing a lot and it's just that's what you expected when someone says no That actually really helped. Thank you so much for that It really helps and it also means that that person's you validate that person's actions. So they're going to more likely to repeat it 100 100 i really like that. That's a great for me That's a great trait to have in a professional environment, and I think a lot of what we're actually discussing today whilst it is to some extent related to the Well, it is you know about the brewing industry that is That is pretty, that is pretty relevant in most industries. Sure. Um, and especially that knowledge one. I know I've spoken to some people I know who were lawyers and it's exactly, if not 10 times worse than it is in the brewing industry. The people with a great lawyer, like knowledge of, of the law in their area get promoted to the partners or whatever, but these people are a total disaster of a man. I mean, they're, they're horrid. And I was just like, but they're like, and it's common across the whole way. Just because they're smart. They're smart people who get into that position, but smart does not mean that you can manage people and often, it's that self awareness that really is, I think, one of the key elements to being, like, progressing any career. It's that self awareness of who you are, what are your triggers and, how, and your weaknesses. and understanding that you're always going to have them and it's how you manage them and how you own them is really that's what's going to make you a better or progress you through your career because you can't be good at everything and you nor should you be expected to be and that's even more relevant in the brewing industry. So we go back exactly to that knowledge and good manager, good brewer. If you're in a management position and In my opinion, your focus should be on the management position and the technical knowledge. You can rely on the people around you for that. you can ask people to specialize in certain areas to make sure they're relaying and get you the best information. And you can focus on getting the best out of them and you can trust them with their areas and their process and everything. I think that's a really key skill to have. It's that sort of know your weaknesses and own them. Sure. Well, and the beautiful thing about this stuff, too, is it's free. You know what I mean? Like when we were talking about, professional development, you're, you're almost talking, uh, we're, we're almost getting into, like some is some, we're talking interpersonal skills, right? Developing interpersonal skills are free. And, and, and the beautiful thing is, is, just like you said, well, it's, it's across industries, it's life. When you do those things, you, you can, you can build very healthy relationships. You know what I mean? And, and, and I think that's, what's exciting about some stuff like this is one from a development standpoint, it's free. It takes effort, but like, this is, this is the whole picture, right? Like we're, we're, we're talking, we're talking big picture stuff. It's going to make outside work and inside work easier. Hmm. Uh, yeah, absolutely. Um, how do you think, well, how, how would you tell people to work on themselves in this way? Like, what is the, what is the best route to that? Like, how do you actually do that? So in this, so this kind of speaks to this. So, um, I don't know if everybody is familiar with various content that's out there right now, but how I, how I said it the other day, like when I'm talking about, personal growth, personal development, I'm not talking about like red pill BS that you can see online where everybody's talking about, um, Um, you need to take athletic greens. You need to start doing jiu jitsu. Uh, you need to do cold plunge. Uh, you need to, be, be taking these supplements, sleeping like this. All those things can be great. Um, but I actually think that the, what's, what's at its core is. Uh, we actually need to develop ourselves, uh, from a, a character standpoint. I think that our culture is, uh, built, it, it hinges on, uh, I should say the unhealthy portions of our culture hinge very much on comfort and distraction, okay? And fundamentally, those things rob us of. Uh, of life. Uh, life passes us by when we do those things, we take things for granted, uh, whether they be family, friends, the beautiful world around us. And so I, I actually think we, we, we actually need to be, there, there's nothing wrong with, with all that, the jujitsu, the, the, the, the cold plunge, all that stuff. But the problem with that is that can be a very superficial thing, right? So, uh, I think, uh, one of the best ways is to actually try to cultivate yourself as a person of character. Um, I think the, the fundamental way to do that and one of the, one of the concrete lessons for me, uh, through being a parent, I said my wife and I have six kids. My oldest is 22. Uh, my youngest is 22. Two. I'm going to be a parent of a minor for 40 years. Um, and, uh, I think a lot of times we think that that parenthood is okay. I'm a parent. I've, I've hit this new level. I'm supposed to be molding this new little person. Right. And, and I didn't realize that, parenthood is actually a formational process for us as parents, as adults. Right. Um, probably the largest lesson. that I've learned from parenthood is that fundamentally, and this is, this is a, this is a counter cultural statement that fundamentally, um, life is, uh, we, we realize ourselves through sacrifice. sacrifices and is an interesting word. I think It's the idea that I can take something that is a perceived good today and give it up for something better in the future. Um, our, our culture doesn't push that, um, and, uh, it's been, it's been my experience through life Um, and, and, and I would encourage people in that process in that, uh, in the, in that pursuit. Um, it's something that I try to do myself, uh, and I fail at daily, but this is, this is what we do. I think this is part of, uh, part of the, the, the human experience that's very necessary. Yeah, I, I, I agree. And for me, self awareness is really important in all of this. And I, I really liked the concept of writing a list of everything you need to improve and then scratch off all the ones that have something to do with vanity. Um, it's a very practical way of looking at it. And I reckon, if I was to do the exactly the same thing, write that list down, there'll definitely be some things on there that I could chalk off due to vanity. Um, uh, it's just, it's kind of ingrained in a lot of human nature, isn't it? I guess. It's a really good way of, assessing your, what you need to do in your sort of professional development. Um, yeah, I think. On a, just on a, maybe on a, on a, on the last one of personal and professional traits as well. It's just something it's just completely from my experience. And I hope that it was so eye opening to me that I really hoped that someone else going through something like this was, uh, here's this and has the same message and has it, the message lands as well as it did with me. But I was, when I was becoming a manager, um, I definitely had quite a substantial amount of imposter syndrome. Uh, I was like, I'm not really a manager. I'm just, I'm just, the time was like maybe 27 or something. And I was like, no one's going to listen to me. I'm not important. I'm just good. I just, I'm the guy who worked too hard and now I'm here, got promoted. I just had this whole thing in my head that I just didn't deserve to be there and I wouldn't really, what, what I said didn't really matter. And that is, and that's exactly it. I was talking to someone and I think I, I can't remember what I said. The context probably isn't important, but I said a throwaway comment, something. About something to do with the brewery and it got uh, it got escalated fairly quickly And then my boss the director was sat with me. He was like you need to realize that what you say matters and Because, I felt that I didn't deserve to be there, and I shouldn't be there, and I was just so I was just there. But actually, I realized at that point when he was making these comments, you have to wind your neck in a little bit here, because, and take stock, because the words that you say to the people around you really matter. And I think that was a really eye opening thing for me, because I was like, Yeah, actually, I can't just waltz around and say what I feel. It's actually, I really have to quite measured with everything I say in a professional environment, which I know to a lot of people will sound ludicrous. And they're probably thinking, how on earth were you a manager? Um, but it generally was a really big thing because I had the root cause of that was because I didn't feel, and I was like, are you sure? Like, why would anyone listen to me? And I was like, but that was actually causing me to be. sort of basically have bad, personal and professional traits was because I just didn't feel like I belonged to be there. So I say if you're in those positions and you're gonna get there, you do belong to be there, you need to act like you are.'cause that will really help you in those situations.'cause that that information that I got was really key to me and it really stuck with me and to the point that that was probably five or six years ago and I can still remember it to this day. So awesome. That's fantastic. Um, what do you think, um, what the development steps to, to grow as a leader? Um, I, I think we, I, I think we, we touched on, uh, quite a bit of it, but a couple of, a couple of really key points is, um, I do think that we have to get comfortable, uh, telling the truth. Okay. And, and there's, there's a difference between, uh, telling the truth and being rude. Um, I, I think sometimes we've, we've boiled down, um, we, we've boiled down interpersonal relationships to, uh, to niceties, to being nice. And, um, I, I think that there is, uh, that there is, yeah, we, we should be, we should be nice to people. Um, but we also need to learn how to be truthful with people. Because if, if we are enabling somebody's behavior that is unacceptable in the workplace, and we don't have the nerve, To have the conversation from a developmental standpoint, right? So, as a, from a manager's standpoint, when you see something you dislike, and you hope that it changes. And then you see the same thing the next week, and you hope it changes. And what's happening every time you see it, you're getting more and more angry. And then you get to the part to where you're like, I'm pissed. I'm going to fire this guy or I'm going to yell at this person or whatever. And then, because a lot of us have soft hearts, you end up getting mad at somebody, you speak to them in a rude fashion, and then you feel terrible afterwards. They have terrible feelings afterwards. We have to get comfortable with the notion of the truth and just being honest with somebody and saying, Hey, I noticed that you did this today. That's not our SOP or that's not how we want that to be handled. Do you have any questions about it? Like, is there, is there any way, anything from a, from a management training standpoint that I can help you with? Um, and the person will say no or whatever, but you know what I mean? But you have to do those things along the way because one, it keeps your emotion down, right? But then you actually have to have the nerve to follow through with development plans with people. Right. When somebody is not performing the way you want, you have to have honest conversations with them and they don't need to be angry. They don't need to be elevated in emotion. They're simple. Okay. I'm seeing this and this. We don't do these things. Are there some confusion? How can you be supported? Right. Give them out opportunity to grow. Right. But, um, I think being, I think being, uh, Somebody that tells the truth is, is a big, big deal because I think a lot of times we, we would rather try to stay in the nice range and nice will kill you as a manager. Nice will kill you as a manager. It's because it's not nice to not be honest with someone, right? Um, but like, and obviously I have, I have the, the, the viewpoint as a parent too. F. If I don't have some honest conversations with my children, that world is going to eat them up. The world might already eat them up. Don't, don't get me wrong. Like it, it can be wild out there, but like, I'm not, I'm not doing my children any service by telling them this behavior is not acceptable. in the world out there. And, you can get your teeth kicked in if you keep doing it, right? So we need to have those. We need to have those honest conversations. I think that's one point. Yeah, that it's a really, it's a really good one. I, a lot of people as well, I feel they get, they get, This is really difficult for them to switch from, what is being nice and don't want to be offending someone to just basically telling the truth to someone and having that constructive conversation. It gets quite amplified in brewery environments, I feel, because a lot of the times there are, you get a lot of internal promotions, and you've gone from being a friend in the brewery of, on staff with everyone, being friendly, and then now all of a sudden in the space of whatever, week, two weeks, you're expected to manage these people. And you have to switch from being nice, being a friend, being, a co worker, where it's a lot more harder, it's a lot harder to, to have those direct conversations when you're a co worker. You normally have to go up to your manager and ask them and say, this wasn't, this SOP wasn't followed. But now it's your responsibility to do that. And that is, that can be quite tricky. But you have to own it. I mean, that's, that's all you can do. Um, and you have to, try and respect that, You, you need to be a good manager first and then a good friend after. Sure, and I think that Yeah. And I think that goes into, what we were talking about before, like displaying leadership skills, whatever level you're at, you know what I mean? First of all, I think if you are that person in the first place, you're the internal higher up, that's going to make it easier for other people to swallow. You know what I mean? Um, being able to handle your promotion when you already show those skills, right? But then it is tricky, and especially in an industry where there's, where there's alcohol, is what is the line between being social. So I love to joke, and I love to have fun with people, and I love to, like, I like to be silly, right? And so I've also realized, though, that at some points, um, there's a line with my joking because I'm also their manager. Right? And so if I ever push the line to where they feel like, Oh, well, I can't joke back at you about this because you're my boss, then that means I'm screwing up. Right? So it is. It is something that you need to be cognizant of of because I am. I'm a gregarious guy. I like to laugh. I like to make other people laugh and I have a very hard time passing up a joke that I think is going to kill. Okay. And so, but you, you do have to reel yourself in and be like, dude, hold on. And it's not even like from a level of appropriateness, but like, you just don't want to like, dunk on somebody and like have them have no outs coming back to you because you're actually their boss. Right. So yeah, there, there is like some space that you need to give yourself from, from a familiarity standpoint. Right. Um, but, but it's, it's a delicate line. It's a delicate line for sure. My best advice is when you're having. Um, everyone does the right beers after work and everyone, as soon as it starts talking about work or someone at work, and you're a manager, get the hell out of there. Literally, grab your coat and get the hell out of there. Because those conversations are the most toxic and because then they, then people have felt like they've told you something, but then how do you act on it? You can't go in on Monday and be like, well, do you remember the thing you told me when you were five beers deep outside the brewery? Just like, yeah, exactly. Get the hell out of there. 100%. 100%. I, I agree. Or, you say something silly. Because you've had a huge, huge, many drinks. Your guard goes down, you become the friend, and then you say something exactly off the cuff that you, you, it's never a problem when you, down the pub, or you're at your mate's house or something, but that is not the right environment. It's, uh, definitely. Definitely. But yeah, I think, for me, maybe one of the final things I want to add is just in the development steps is owning mistakes, both your mistakes, but as a team owning your mistakes, I think is so important and was, it just, it can change the entire culture and atmosphere of a brewery team. Um, and I'll share with the listeners, just my approach. This is absolutely not the best approach. I'm not saying that, but it's just the way that I always looked at it. And I feel that, when we were involved in it, it really helped me. mentally structure what happens when a mistake happens. So let's say, I don't know, a mistake happens in the brewery. In fact, if anyone just listened to the episode before, uh, episode 18, I actually went through exactly a problem that happened in a brewery, because of naturally there was a mistake somewhere in the, in, in the mix. What I would do when I was looking at that, I'd be like, okay, the first level is before anything happens is, was there an SOP in place? Was there quality assurance? And was it followed? They're the three things, right? So, that's the highest level. If there, if there isn't an SOP for doing that. There is no blame for the oper for the person who's done it. They are completely absconded because the system has failed. So it's always like, the first check for me was, is there a system in place to help prevent this? And then if they say there was, the next one, was it properly communicated by someone? And has that person had the signed off, well, let's say, the training and the skills, and the next thing is, is there evidence for this? So, okay, has someone communicated it properly? Or was it on the list of daily tasks? Yes. Okay. And then was, is their training and skills required to do that job? Yes. And when, when were they given? Was it recent? How old? And where's the documentation that's proving it? Once you have that, and let's say that, that's now, okay, that's perfect. Then you can start to think, okay, that person has made a mistake. The first question you ask is, is that person okay? Before anything else, you go, you just ask them, are you okay? Because a lot of mistakes happen because of something happening in someone's life. That's consuming their mental capacity. So you have to be, a genuine, not a, are you okay? Yeah. Okay, cool. Right now, I need to ask you about this. I don't know if it's the same in the States. I mean, I actually lived in the States, but I can't remember now. But it's like, um, in the UK, you always ask, how are you? It was like, hey, how you doing? That's like the first it's like an opening line. Yes I remember someone from, uh, one of the breweries that I worked at was not, like, originally from the UK and they were like, why is everyone asking me how they are? No one cares. And like, if someone goes, actually, yeah, do you know what? And you're like, whoa, that's not okay. I asked how you were. I didn't ask how you were. Really funny. So yeah. Always making sure you ask actually how they are. Sure. And then you can start to say maybe that person has made a mistake x, y, and z, and then not blame, but you know, there has to be an accountability for the mistake and ownership of the mistake. If someone's generally just not followed the SOP or, uh, not done the QA because it wasn't there, or it was there, the training was done, if they were okay, then it can just be a mistake and you have to discuss that with that person. But I've seen it from all the abnormalities I've seen in my life, and there's been a lot, I can probably say one. has been one or two have been down because that person has made a just a mistake for something, out of probably a thousand. So to give people an idea of how often it's first the systems failed and then managerial level it's failed before that person, has even got to that point where they have made, they've made the mistake. And I think that's really important in a brewery to have that system. I mean, I've seen breweries, I've been in breweries where it's not like that. And it's very much like blame, blame, blame, Um, and to a certain extent that works because it, it gets you to a certain point, but like, it doesn't help the people within it progress. And I found that that was one of the best things, one of, one of the managers I worked in for a while. It was just like, there was just zero blame. It was always like, well, okay, we've made a mistake here, the system's made a mistake, we didn't have that SOP, so, this, can you go and write it, can you help write it, can you, and I was like, this is so progressive, because now not only that, I'm now learning, I've now written the SOP, I can issue the training, and I thought it was a really powerful, uh, concept in a brewery. Yeah, definitely. I agree. And, and it's also one of those things too. And, and we, we were kind of, you were kind of close to the idea too. I, I think there's people, people respect being, whether it be managed or, or working with somebody that admits when they're wrong or when they need help. You know what I mean? I, I think that's, just, Because you're, you're going to be wrong. You're going to need help and pretending that you don't need those things. You can actually model the, I don't know if the, the, the, I'm going to use the word vulnerability. I don't know if that's exactly right, but the, the, the vulnerability of saying, I don't know how to do this, or I need help with that. It's a big factor in building trust with people because, and especially in. Well, it's probably a lot of industries, but I think in ours, there's a certain amount of ego or a certain amount of concern that your knowledge is you as a brewer. And if you admit that you don't have that, well, then I don't belong X, Y, and Z, whatever. But, uh, but yeah, yeah. So, yeah, absolutely. And I think it goes both ways as well. I think when you're in a team and your manager may not, doesn't have the specific technical knowledge for a specific problem. It's not necessarily a negative thing. I feel that it goes both ways. Like, a good man, a good brewer doesn't make a good manager, but you also need to appreciate that as a team member as well. If you're not in that managerial position, that as long as they're You know, doing the managerial duties, the technical duties, you can find resources. There's things to solve that problem, but having that good environment there is important, so yeah. And you can specialize too, you know what I mean? Like, so the the lead brewer, uh, at our place does, um, Uh, does raw material sourcing, uh, and scheduling and he's good at it and he loves it and he's a killer on the floor like he's, he's, but you know what I mean? But he, he has an acumen for, for something, right? And so, uh, keep in mind that there's more jobs in a brewery, uh, just other than making beer. So you can have your foot in that area, but you can also have it in other areas as well because most of us are bringing. A different skill set or a different training set to the table, right? I mean, there's so many people with degrees in the brewing and I have a history degree You know what? I mean, and i'm and i'm making beer, so Uh people have different skill sets. Um, and so just don't pigeonhole yourself Uh in that regard either Yeah, absolutely. And you know with everything we've said today, and I think I said it earlier in the pod, but We these are skills that are not just These are the skills that allow you to move on in the industry, but also outside the industry. So if you want to, move into being a technical rep, if you want to work in a different part, the supplier side, move around the supply chain of the, of the brewing industry, these skills will get you there. Um, much more than knowing how to troubleshoot the latest problem or what hops are getting you, what this will, this is more of the information that will get you there much quicker. And also to some people. They want to leave the brewing industry, right? I mean, I, I think it's as you said, but, um, Bart Watson said at the BA, it's almost exactly the same here. The market's maturing and maybe there's just isn't the same. People just aren't so interested. Maybe they're maturing a little bit as well in what they want and what their life needs from them. So, yeah. these are the skills that allow you, these are very interchangeable skills. You can apply these into another job, into another industry, and move pretty, pretty quickly in that as well. So, I feel like, I hope that this podcast has been, useful for everyone. For people who aren't in manager positions, who want to be, and who currently are. Um, I don't even have anything else you want to add to this, uh, Adam? No, man, I'm all set. And just, just on a personal level, I, it's always so, uh, it's such a, been a great experience meeting so many. Uh, good folks out there and, and having conversations, if, if I never started doing the YouTube thing, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And I'm just always delighted, uh, genuinely to, to have these, these talks with people and, and to be, uh, meeting more good people in the industry. So I just wanted to very genuinely thank you and tell you how much I appreciate it. It was a, it was a fun talk. Awesome, man. Yeah, man. I really appreciate it as well. And, uh, I think what you're doing is amazing. Um, especially with the YouTube channel, with having six kids, a full time job, a YouTube channel, and still finding time to listen to podcasts on your way in. People should study your scheduling, man, because that's amazing. I don't know how you do that. That's kind of you. Yeah. Awesome, man. I really appreciate it. And, um, I don't suppose, are you going to be at CBC this year? I unfortunately I won't be, um, but, uh, but we'll, we'll see on some of the, on some of the other, uh, some of the other ones. I don't think I don't probably won't be doing, uh, GABF either, but we'll see what 2025 holds. I'm kind of working on some talk topics for the, for the 2025 season, because, uh, That kind of starts the year ahead of time, so I'm putting some, some talks together and so maybe that'll help facilitate me getting my rear end to some of those conferences. Awesome. Yeah, well, um, yeah, I'm actually going to be heading out to CBC for the first time in my life. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, this is exciting. Um, it's funny. We talked earlier that, Trojans and not the milestones. And here I am telling you as a milestone. It's pretty funny. Well, but it's, it's great. And I mean, there, there's, there's, there can be a lot of value there, man. Yeah. I think it's an elite, it's an elite thing and it's just a nice experience. Um, um, yeah, and we're going, I'm going with a company called severe. So it should be a really fun time and, uh, good to push their sustainability software on people. So. Nice. Um, nice. Yeah, I'm excited. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the Modern Brewer podcast. And yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Cheers. Thank you to everyone for listening to the latest episode of the Modern Brewer podcast. With me, your host, Chris Lewington. If any of you guys want to get in contact with me or Adam about any of the topics we talked about in today's podcast, Today's episode. Please get in contact. I've put Adam's contact details in the show notes, as well as mine, as always. And the next episode is going to be on sensory with Jethro and it's going to be really exciting. One of my favorite topics in brewing and pretty relevant to anyone who listened to the last episode, episode 18. So thanks to everyone for listening and I'll catch you on the next episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast.