Ep 28 - Global Brewing - Making the Move to Asia with Neil Playfoot

Ever looked East?

The Asian beer market has been in many breweries expansion plan for years…but should it?

In this episode of The Modern Brewer Podcast, join me, Chris Lewington as I’m joined by with brewing veteran Neil Playfoot to explore the ins and outs of the Asian beer market.

From China's “booming” beer market to the rise of IPAs, Neil shares his insights on everything East of Europe.

Whether you're considering brewing in Asia, distributing or sourcing equipment - this episode is your answer.

00:00 - Intro
02:19 - Fifth Column Advert
06:48 - Neil Playfoot's Life and Career
10:58 - China's Beer Market Overview
16:57 - What are the Growth Markets in Asia?
20:49 - Are IPAs the most popular beer style in Asia?
25:30 - How to get your beer into China, does the distributor model work?
31:04 - Can you get your beer brewed in China? Should you?
34:03 - How can you get a career in brewing in Asia?
44:12 - What should breweries know before sourcing equipment from Asia/China?
52:34 - How does Neil see the Asian Beer Market evolving over the next 5-10 years?

A big thank you to our sponsor, Fifth Column - the BEST brewery apparel out there! 👕 Check them out for your breweries sustainable garms.

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🔗 Neil’s LinkedIn

🔗 Chris' LinkedIn

Transcript

0:14

Hello listeners and welcome to the latest episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast with me, your host, Chris Lewington. Today we're embarking on a journey across the globe to one of the most dynamic and fascinating beer markets, Asia. I studied economics before I made the wise decision to ditch a future mind numbing, but well paid career in finance for craft brewing. So I am always fascinated by the unique challenges and opportunities that different regions present. Most of you will know I ran a brewery on a remote island in the Caribbean. If you didn't, I normally find a way of strong arming that into the first minute of any conversation with anyone ever. But what this experience did teach me is that here in the Western world. we often take certain aspects of brewing for granted. access to specific ingredients, established regulatory frameworks, logistics, and familiar consumer preferences. And in my career, I feel I faced a lot of challenges, but stepping outside the constructs of the UK's society and business principles was absolutely one of the most challenging. Everything you take for granted kind of gets thrown up in the air and you have to re evaluate even the basics of what you have done previously. In today's episode, we're going to uncover the intricacies of the Asian beer market with a focus on the biggest, China. We'll discuss if breweries can successfully get their beer sold in Asia, The pros and the cons of having it brewed locally versus exporting it. And the critical steps involved in making such a move. And for the brewers who are actually considering a career move abroad, similar to the one that I did, will provide essential information on relocating and thriving in a foreign brewery environment. But before we dive into today's episode, I want to share with you a company that is top of the class in custom apparel printing for the brewing industry. 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Fifth Column serves local businesses in the UK, but if you are an international listener, They also serve a range of international clients. A testament to their ethics, quality, and customer service, which has seen this garment and printing company continue to grow since 1977. Which, when you think, About how much that industry has changed since then. It's quite incredible. And get this, the team at Fifth Column are offering you, the listeners of the Modern Brewer podcast, 10 percent off your first order. So if you're ready to take your custom apparel to the next level. Visit their website at www. fifthcolumn. co. uk There's also a link to Fifth Column's website in the show notes. Alright, now let's get back to the show. I am thrilled to be joined by an expert brewing consultant who has extensive experience working in Asia, particularly in China. And for anyone who uses LinkedIn, they will be familiar with a legend that is Neil Playfoot. Neil will share invaluable insights into the Asian beer landscape from market entry strategies to sourcing equipment and everything in between. And as someone who has personally gone through the shift from Britain to Asia, he will tell you exactly how you can make the same move. This episode is packed with critical information for any brewer looking to expand their horizons and explore new markets. Alright listeners, let's broaden our horizons and learn more about the Asian beer market. Welcome to the show, Neil Playfoot. Uh, thank you very much for Chris for having me on. we've been speaking for quite a long time and it's finally actually kind of meet face to face through the internet as well. So yeah, thanks again for asking me on. I've only seen your face on LinkedIn many, many, many, many times. And that's about the only thing I've seen of you. So it's actually really cool to see you in real life, as you said. but I mean, look for the listeners who don't follow you on LinkedIn, that you could tell us a little bit about who you are and your fascinating career. So far, Sure, thanks Chris. so yeah, my name is Neil Playfoot. originally from the UK, now I'm based in China in, Changsha, which is Hunan province, which is in the center. first came over here in 2011. I came over here to brew. like I said, I came over for a venture. I ended up with a family, so I've got a wife and daughter now. So kind of made my life out here. I'm brewing for a number of years out here in China. And then eventually, COVID happens and I was like, uh, wasn't really sure what, what was going on. Everything was a little bit of state in flux. So whilst I was quarantined in a hotel, decided to set up Asian Beer Network. And now what I do is, help people and consult. So if people want to buy equipment from China, I help them that like work as a middleman in the sense that, you know, I can help with communication. I can be a man on the ground. and then also just still working with brewers in China as well. So if they want to help with processing and recipe creation and things like that, and it's just been. The combination of working in brewing for 25 years around, you know, around the world, I've been Bermuda, Armenia and elsewhere, kind of got to the point that I was long enough in China that I felt I knew the market and help and help people really. And so that's what I've been doing for the last three, four years with, with Asian beer network, really. that's awesome. So what are the countries have you brewed in? so obviously it started off in London. I went to Paris, uh, spent some time in Lisbon. Then when I went to. Bermuda. And I know we were talking about Bering on islands and how it's hard with the humidity. and then spent some time in Armenia and then came over to China and done a bit of time in Hong Kong as well. So I feel lucky that I've allowed, had Bering allow me to travel around the world, but not just stay in one place for a few months. I actually live there, work with locals. Like for example, that, I was spent about 18 months in Armenia, and that was getting a production really up and running because they had a group up and that was teaching a team almost from scratch. Most of them didn't have that much brewing experience. That's a really great recipes, and I was just helping scale those up. But going in every day, working with them, they had a real nice community feel like we'd often on Friday evenings would have a barbecue. Everybody was drinking beer. you know, just outside and chatting and just to be able to experience that. I feel quite, you know, it's quite an honor to be able to appreciate and experience that really. So it's been, brewing has been good to me in that sense. It's such a fascinating career and do you know I think One of the most underrated things about being a brewer is it's a skill that is worldwide It's not something that's really like just specific to just one part of the world You can take that skill and get a job in any just about most countries in the world Uh, which I think is really really cool thing about brewing that's one of the things that attracted me to sort of move abroad was because I was like I can do that and keep my expertise and You know keep moving my career or keep doing what I love and just in another position like another country, which I thought was really cool yes. And also the fact, if you go to another country and they ask you what you're doing, you'll say a brewer, you actually have a lot more random conversations with people, not even in brewing because it started off as well. So it's kind of a really nice icebreaker as well. cause yeah, in China, there's lots of people that are teachers and they see I'm British and they're like, Oh, you're going to be a teacher. I said, well, actually, I'll make beer. They're like, Oh, really? So, and then there starts a whole new conversation. someone I know, James Forster used to say being a brewer's got like a real amount of social currency. It's wherever you're at, as soon as you say you're a brewer, it's like, Oh my God, it's like an actually interesting career instead of I work in finance. Yeah. There's, you can see people that can kind of just register in their eyes. You make beer. Okay. This is kind of interesting here. So yeah, maybe there. Yeah, the ones who like my, uh, like the older generation was like, Oh, so you just sit around and drink beer all day. Do you? It's like, sure. glamorous job. Yeah, sure That's what I do. Sure it's 85 to 90 percent cleaning. It's really not glamorous at all. and then you just watch like the the all the fun and joy just drain out of their face when you say that All right, neil. Let's so let's talk about the asian beer market I mean, I I completely appreciate it's a huge thing to talk about so probably yeah We start off by talking about china in the current sort of beer market there Sure, so China is, as 1. 4 billion population, so it's huge. So cities are generally tiered. So I like tier one to four. Tier one cities are like Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, which most people know. And then you have tier two cities, which are the industrial cities. And most of them are like 5 million population, but a lot of people haven't heard of them like, Wuxi or Kunming down in Yunnan. Now craft beer is mostly concentrated in those cities, just purely because of the population, the disposable income. and Domestic craft starts around about, I'm going to use dollars if that's okay. It's just easier for me to convert from R& D. about 3. 50 for a domestic craft beer. and that can go up to about 14 in general. but we also obviously get a lot of imported beers and they usually start about 4 and they can go crazy up to like 30, 30 for a, for a glass of beer. And that's purely because some of this stuff is actually cold chain from the US. So it's got to be cold chain all the way through and then it will come through and, you know, you can get some really interesting beers over here. That's, you know, not pasteurized ink egg, but unfortunately you're going to have to pay for it, especially if you're in Shanghai or one of these bars. I mean, that's unique. I mean, in general, craft true craft is probably still 0. 5 percent of the market, in China. You might hear two or 3%, but that's usually because they include like the debt. or Goose Island, which not necessarily is what we had called true craft, but obviously in China, it still comes under the craft banner when you consider it to what AB InBev, Juvel, Qingdao and Snow, which are the two main, large macro breweries over here. so China makes like 34 billion liters of beer a year. And the vast majority of that, it's going to be domestic lager. Which is, for about 500 mil bottle or can, it's going to start like 70 cents, probably goes up to about 1. 70. and you know, these, uh, this is what the vast majority of people will drink over here. and as I say, craft is still a very small part of it, and right now it's The economy is in a bit of a state of flux. So what a lot of these bigger, more established craft brewers do, they work with distributors. So they'll sell to a distributor in Shenzhen, they'll sell to another distributor in Shanghai and one in Beijing. And so through one particular distributor, it's doing quite well. Then what happens is. As the, as people are not spending as much money, there's been a, a call to try and reduce the price, but keep the same quality. So one of these, one of these distributors now are thinking is, why do I use another brewery? What if I just contract that beer myself? I'm the one with the clients. So they're kind of cutting out and they're going to go straight to source. So now there's brewers in China wondering what's, what's going to happen. So it's kind of a state of flux. Are we going to lose our distributors? Are we going to lose volume? And then I had an, another friend and he's making, an IPA put it into the plastic one way kegs, and that comes in like 83. and now he's been told by some of the people that sell his beers, the distributors, again, that that's too high in price that they can get it for less than that. And it's really hard for independent brewers to reduce that price below because we're paying probably. 35 to 54 US aroma hearts per kilo. So you can imagine it's kind of being really quite, quite well squeezed over here. So at the moment, it's the, the economy is making everybody kind of readjust their focus and how they're marketing themselves to, to see how, how it goes in China. It's, it's a little bit of a state of flux, just purely based on the economy. That's really interesting. So, as you were saying that, I was thinking, why aren't distributors doing that here? Because, as you said, from a pure business perspective. It makes a lot of sense for distributors just to contract the volume themselves So definitely get it cheaper than what they would purchasing it. But of course, they wouldn't get the brand name attached to it So are brand names as significant in china as they are in uk or not so much Yeah in general, the education level of craft of people in the UK is definitely going to be higher than the average craft drinker in the UK. In China, they know IPA, they know Imperial Stout, they know milkshakes, IPA, they know fruited beer, they know probably of one or two or three different, brands, but it's quite harder to get brand recognition here. I would guess because like England is much smaller than, than, than China. So there are good breweries in, in Chengdu, like in the, in the, in Sichuan making good beer, but that doesn't necessarily relate to somebody that's in Xiamen, almost the other side of the country for them, it's hard to, you know what I mean, again, it's kind of the geography that makes it a little bit harder and also, as I say, craft is still a very tiny minority and the people that drink and craft. are still, you know, it's still only a small fraction, so it's harder to break through, you know, because most people would have heard of in England of, you know, Northern Monk, Verdeck, Cloudwater. It's not going to be this. There are a few that have broken through to a certain extent, but it's not going to be to the same level purely just from logistics point of view and just size. Yeah, really interesting. so what are the, like the, the sort of growth opportunities? are there any, like parts of the beer market in Asia that are experiencing more growth than others? Hmm would potentially be Thailand. because before Thailand, the laws were quite strict, and it was pretty much sewn up by the big producers like Singer and Cher, and it was quite hard for anybody to get the licenses. to be able to brew even on a small scale. there was a lot of caveats to it. Well, now what we're seeing is the laws are relaxing. brew pubs are still quite hard to get licenses, but if you persist with it, you should be able to get the license within one year and people are starting to do that. and then I was talking to one of the, suppliers, uh, brew brewing equipment suppliers. and they were telling me that they've actually just sending out 100 hectolitre, 10, 000 litre system to Thailand, which is, I was surprised to hear because usually production breweries in Thailand are not allowed. And it's hard to get the license, but we're seeing more of it. so that's going to be a really interesting one to see develop because it's, it feels like it's kind of brand spanking new. There are a few that have been around for a few years, but it's all kind of happening now, and it's the laws that are allowing it. And then you've got, people actually importing into Thailand now, because there is. Definitely, people that like to drink craft beer over there. So like Encanto of the Philippines, I know we're importing into the country. and. So yeah, I think Thailand could be an interesting one. And then the Philippines itself. you're seeing because it's Philippines is a lots of small islands, not necessarily big population centers everywhere. You're seeing like, 200 or 300 liter systems going up on this, supply in the local community, but also supplying the local, what do you call it? Tourists come into the area. so that, for example, Coron Brewery is, it's, it's really nice. Coron it's like, uh, it's quite a big tourist population, a lot of people, they go over there for diving. And, yeah, I was just working with, the Coron Brewery there. And it's been interesting. They've seen like. The tourists come in first and then now it's got interest from the locals. So it's kind of these little centers are Selling the beer, but also educating the locals and it's starting to spread and then karamburi were doing quite well And then you'll hear about our karamburi did well. Why don't we do this on our island and see how that goes? So we're we're seeing it in southeast asia in general. There's you know, vietnam It's a little bit more established. because last year, I don't know, there was Brewer Asia, and everybody went to Ho Chi Minh City for that. and that was kind of good to see, Vietnamese beer showcased, because you've got Saigon and you've got Hang Hoi, and they've got breweries that have been established for, you know, more than five years now, and they're all starting to, to, you know, do quite well and starting to grow. the issue with them is they're looking maybe it's going to be up to about 100 percent tax in 2030, and that's, you know, Another issue with, sorry a hundred percent tax yeah, because that's 60 now, which makes it really hard for some of the brewers over there. And what I think a lot of it has to do with, drink driving laws in Southeast Asia. They're trying to crack down on it and drinking in general. So it's kind of a balance that they want to have these industries, but at the same time, health and safety. So I don't know, Asia in general, it's kind of, there's lots of things going on at once. It's kind of hard to. I mean, there's lots of little, something happens and then there'll be a counter reaction to it and then something else, you know what I mean? And it's constantly improving. It's it's a lot easier over here because well apart from the uk, but the european union generally just dictates Macro policy, so there's certainly nothing like that in asia. So every country's doing things very differently And there's a lot of countries doing things very differently Definitely. Definitely. yeah. So, What sort of uh, beer styles are popular in Asia and China? I mean you can talk about China specifically or Asia in general. Is it kind of the standard over here as well, the IPAs and stuff? yeah, I mean, Asia tends to follow. Worldwide trends. because a lot of the people doing the brewing are potentially expats still not necessarily so much in China these days, but in Southeast Asia, most of the head brewers, I would say, would be from Europe, UK, America. so, for example, like, heart of darkness in Vietnam. they have 12 core beers and four of those would be IPAs and one of them is a pale ale and, you know, that's not uncommon. And then you'll have, for example, in China, Wild West, they purely just base themselves on hazy IPAs. and then if you go to Kraft, in China, IPAs are number one, generally it seems to be, hazy IPAs in most places. fruit beers do really, really well because, you know, Chinese kind of like beers that don't taste like beer, if that makes sense. although they're not as popular as they, they used to be, but they're just easy drinking, more approachable because obviously Asian people in general, they might like bitter food, but having bitter in drinks, it's not necessarily a good thing as well. So for people that are not as well educated, they're drinking the IPAs, having something a little bit sweeter. It seems to be easier for them to make the beer approachable or something they drink and say, Oh, I kind of, I kind of like, so for the fruit beers, you might actually see it down more South in like the Gwandong area. and like hazy IPAs, it's usually like Gen X and, Uh, millennials that, uh, you know, drinking, it's a lot of young professionals with a little bit of disposable income, but they tend to have the money to be able to drink this craft beer. Because if you go to a bar, as I say, if it's five to six to 7, it's not, it's not approachable to the average person that's, you know, working a nine to five job in a, in a factory. Hmm. Yeah, and I, it's really interesting that still even though, I mean, especially Aroma Hops being like, what, 35 to 40 dollars a kilo, the Hazy IPAs are still a thing. You'd think they would just price them out. Is there any sort of Product innovation going on where people are trying to use things that aren't necessarily hops because of the price And to try to reduce that price down or the cost of production down I attempts at doing this. And that's one thing I've. I'd like to have seen China actually do more of, because we have a lot of, I'm saying we for China now, I've been here quite a long time. love that. I kind of feel like attached to the Chinese brewing industry now because I've been here for quite a long time. I'm actually one of the oldest people to be actually been doing craft beer in China. So kind of wild part of it. So anyway, we, I would like to see China be able to do more because we have like Chinese cooking. So we have all these herbs. We have all these vegetables. that we have, even crazy to think there's probably lots of interesting yeast out there and everything else we've never, it's never. been something that's been taken on. Like, for example, I made a beer with purple perilla, which in Japanese is called Siso, and it's used in cooking and it's, it's got a kind of, it's like, it's part of the mint family, but it goes really well with citrus. So if you put that in a herbal hazy, I called it herbal hazy IPA. If you put that in, kind of a good way to balance off if you're using like, citrus hops. but what we do see is you'll see Tonka beans sometimes used over here. You might see Sichuan pepper used over here and used in like a wood style of beer because obviously the Sichuan pepper is the one that kind of numbs your mouth. That kind of works since they're maybe using pepper. but I would, yeah, I'd like to see more like taking, Hmm. like, gin botanicals, which I try and do a little bit more in some of the work I do. I think botanicals and gin botanicals and stuff that you can potentially find in China could be useful, but we're not really seeing that. But as. I feel like China and some of the breweries in China are definitely getting more of their own voice. So the hope is, in years to come, that maybe Chinese brewers will explore that in more detail and see if we can get something that's a little bit more unique to the, to the region. it makes a lot of sense. It was just interesting when the cost is so, so much higher, that still those, the brews are still following the trends of other, of the macro trends of craft beer. for someone, Who's listened to this thinking i'd like to get my my beer into asia or into china Like of course, I imagine there's going to be a lot of challenges but what are the sort of primary challenges that they they'd face when entering the asian market and Have you got any sort of like have you seen any strategies that have really worked? No it's, it's really, really hard to get in to China. Again, let's just say it's. People kind of, you have to try to understand the culture, people's drinking preferences, basically the vastness of the country itself. it's like, you know, imagine Europe and trying to go into Europe or try and go into somewhere twice as big as the United States with 1. 4 billion population. It does, Prove its own challenges. and I was speaking with a friend of mine, Sean from the Sag Gorilla Club and he tries and helps people come in, smaller breweries come in. and he was saying like he would expect if he was, I knew if you're going to do like small concept marketing, so you're going to do small activations and a bit of gorilla marketing, just try and concentrate on a few big cities. You would, you would, you need to spend or lose like maybe 140, 000 in the first 12 months just to even try and. Get into that market and for a lot of breweries that's quite a lot of money to be spending but over here you need to get people, Drink your beer first and then if they like your beer They're going to tell it to other people people are not necessarily going to drink beer themselves without So people rely on their social networks or on their familial networks to get how do you say it recommendations? So you need to get in people's minds and a few people's mind and then kind of build it from there You kind of have to have a strategy starting one city, then maybe try and go to another city. and most people also work with a local partner here when it comes to the distribution. So, but the best thing is you have to try and find a local partner and that can be quite hard. I mean, even BrewDog, when they wanted to come into China, again, they ended up pairing with AB InBev to help them with their distribution. So even, yeah, yeah. So, post so, yeah, it's, it's finding the right partner. So if anybody wants to come over here, you kind of, you have to try and meet different people. It's the hard part, but sometimes you'll have people come over, but you have to come over here. You'd have to spend some time here yourself, definitely pay for some data, pay for some metrics. Just spend some time traveling around, get an idea for yourself, how the market works and trying to figure out how you're going to get beer into the, in people's hands. And, you know, there's lots of, uh, demographics in, in China, which is going to be the best demographics for a band. You just, register your brand, come out here, look for partners, understand the culture, understand the vastness of it, try and formulate a plan. Do you start off in one particular area? Do you start in a couple of cities rather than concentrating on China as a whole? Because I think if you try and, if you try and concentrate on China as a whole, you're going to take on a bit more than you, you can chew. So it's just one that you, you have to be here yourself. Like people say to me that when you have, what's China like? And I said, you have to. Come here yourself and see for yourself and see if it's the right place for you because it's not going to be the right place for everybody. I mean, there are a few brands like Treehouse that have done well over here, but they, they kind of do it almost on a scarcity thing. They only bring so much. So they can charge a premium for it. So there's, you know, there's different strategies as a work. It's just trying to find the right strategy that works for you. I would say the classic exporting model, I would guess in the, in craft beer industry is you find, uh, let's say we wanted to export to country X, you'll go find a distributor distributor in country X sign a deal with them and they would lead the marketing, the promotion, and you would just basically supply them beer. Does that kind of model not exist generally in Asia? Was, is that not really the role of the distributor? it, it is, but, finding the right one is really difficult because what I find is there's a lot of distributors that will bring in. Beer X from this country say, look, we're going to support it. But what they'll do is they'll put it, they'll get a container of it, but they, they don't really do too much to shift it. They don't go on the marketing end of it, and then it will sit on their shelves and they'll be like, Oh, that one doesn't work. And then they'll go to the next brewery and say, Hey, we want to try it. That's what I'm saying. You have to come over here. If you, if somebody comes to you and says, we want to market your beers, they're great. we'll come out. We want to see what you do, what you've done with other people in the past, and then do it that way because. That way, if you're on the ground, I mean, coming to China, it's not going to cost as much as shipping a whole container of your beer over there and have it sit on the shelf and not sell, Hmm. you know, you kind of have to invest in yourself and go over and spend time there first to see if you can work with that supplier or if you think your beer will do well in China before just sending beer to some distributor who can promise you a lot of things, but not necessarily is in a position to push your beer to the right places. And, you know, necessarily they don't understand the beer you're, that you're making well enough to find the right people that want to put it into their bars or, you know, into their, into their shops. so another, another route that people try and expand into other countries is getting their beer brewed by a local partner and then sort of circumnavigating a lot of the costs So is that an option in Asia or in China? as I say, yeah, it's kind of something that i've been getting into recently so i'm working with a brewery in changsha that actually does just does contract brewing and we're seeing that happening more. I'm literally talking with a brewery in Southeast Asia that wants to actually make the beer here. so what you'll find is yes, you can do it. Yes, it can be cheaper from the point of view. Utilities are cheap in China. The cost of electricity is cheaper. The cost of labor is cheaper. and obviously a lot of the packaging bottles, cans are all made So obviously the price of that is cheaper as well. so As I said, one of the things is the cost of materials can be more expensive if you're importing malt and hops, so that can be in the prices. There's a bit of a balance there. So you kind of have to balance it with, yes, you can potentially make it cheaper and get it to the market in China cheaper and have it fresher. So potentially larger margins with fresher beer. But then at the same time, there's a trade off. People will pay a premium for imported beers because I think, I mean, Still, China is China and still for a lot of people, if it's made somewhere else, because China is not known for its craft beer as much as other countries. So like the U. S. is famous for craft beer. Potentially we get a lot of Australian beer that comes in, UK beer that comes in and they're like, oh, this is made in England. So this still is going to potentially be better than local craft because it's, because that's the way they, they, they see things. The kind of. There's lots of brand recognition and international brand recognition that can come in. So, it's kind of a trade off, making it easier here, but then, are people going to buy it because it's not imported, because it's actually made locally in China? And that's actually Goose Islands, when they switched from importing it from Chicago, making it in Chicago, then to brewing it locally. Obviously they had some of that same kind of issues that, ah, this is brewed locally, no, it's not brewed from Chicago and coming in. So there was a little bit of, yeah, they had to re market themselves. Yeah, it's a really, really interesting point. I definitely didn't consider at all was that you, lose that importing tag, which actually has the, like, Oh, that will be a premium product because it's imported. Uh, I never would have thought that's really interesting. Uh, it feels like surely the local partnership route would be better for the quality of the beer. Definitely. unless you're cold chaining it. But as you said, as soon as you start cold chaining from America to China, it's basically 30 for a glass of beer. which probably doesn't make it very economical, for, for a lot of people, as you said. I'd love to talk a little bit now about how people can work in Asia. So we've talked about how a brewery can expand into Asia, but taking it down just to the brewer personal level, how can someone who's listened to this podcast thinking, I want to go do what Neil's done and go travel the world and brew beer. How does someone go about getting a career in brewing in asia? yeah, so So i've been bringing in Asia since what? 2011 now, talking to china because a lot of my most of my experiences in china. It's a little bit, there's less opportunities now in China, purely because when it comes to the craft brewing side of things, there's a lot of more, much more local expertise. because, you know, a lot of these expat breweries, they've been brewing for a number of years. They've been training up local brewers, and it's got to the point that these local brewers have been head brewers, and now they're teaching the local brewers. and, you know, 10 years ago, it was probably a little bit of a, it was a bit of a golden time. The cost of brewing in China, or cost of living in China, wasn't so high. And so we were being paid quite well. but the, those kind of opportunities are a less so, here, but there are definitely opportunities. you know, like in some of the bigger breweries like AB InBev Duvel have heavily invested into, you know, a lot of those, uh, management positions are now, by, you know, people from Europe, people from America. So there's definitely those opportunities. There's still opportunities in craft brewing, in the, you know, the production breweries. and most of the production breweries here, the craft level are like 50 and below. So 50 hefty liters and below. So 5, 000 liters. and so what, if you want to come out of here, it's kind of hard to find these jobs. It's really kind of word of mouth a lot of these jobs to try and find them so you kind of happen to start making friends with brewers in asia and just kind of networking around and kind of put your name Out there. so, you know if anybody's ever really interested in doing it, definitely they can get in contact with me I don't know if you can put my details I can, in there. Yep. I would say right now in asia in general, there's definitely opportunities coming up in southeast asia for example bali You there's been several, smaller production breweries going into Bali and they've all looking to get an expat brewer either on the management side or high levels in their brewing, crew side. and you know, sometimes if you're on probreware. com, you'll see them, but again, a lot of those you kind of, you just kind of have to be word of the mouth, but then you'll find weirdly, you'll, what you find is, There's a lot of German brewers that end up in Asia and also in Africa, and it seems a lot of those are actually advertised on German websites. So if you can actually get on German websites, like Domens have a Facebook page, and they will post, lots of, jobs on there. And every now and again, they're probably working with a, with an Asian brewery, and then you'll actually find jobs for Asia posted on there. so cool. I'll if you can share that link with me, I'll put that in the show notes as well so people can check that out. So it's just kind of, word of mouth. And if somebody's really interested in coming to Asia, there's Brew Asia this year. Which should be in October, this, in Singapore. So if they're really serious about it, you know, get yourself over to Singapore and start networking. and then if you're over there, then obviously you can get a feel for it for yourself. It's just. It's just putting your name out there, searching on LinkedIn, as I say, these random German websites that you can go on, it sounds nice to come and brew in Asia. And actually I really enjoy it. Obviously it's completely different lifestyle, different culture and everything else. for example, if you're in Thailand, if you're asking a question, you don't want to try and tie them up. So it's just an either a yes or a no answer. Put people on the spot. It's not the dumb thing and people don't like it. So the way you kind of communicate with people potentially has to be a different. It's just like these small little things that you kind of have to be aware of. And as I say, you also you're being observed in, in, in Southeast Asia or China as well. And bear in mind, you're coming in as a different culture. So they're all there. There's definitely lots of eyes on you to see how you because they're going to compare you to how they would work as well on a different level on how you react. It's Yeah, it's kind of interesting because you can see them because Chinese people sometimes you you think they might be kind of cold, but it's completely opposite from the truth. It's just, they're sussing you out at first. And once they set you out and they think you're okay, they can be some of the most kind, lovely, generous people in the world, but, and also again, in Asia, sometimes their way of communicating is quite different, maybe a bit like the Dutch, where it can be very curt, very open because Chinese in general is, it's not very flowery language. It's like, I want this. Can you do this? So if they're talking to you, it might sound like they're being rude or trying to command you or something else, but they're not. It's just, that's how they speak in their language. I guess that's like kind of the fun Part of working abroad though is learning new cultures learning how to fit in new cultures Uh, I mean There's always an inherent risk with moving abroad. It's quite daunting at times. especially when you've got like family and friends in, in your local area, and then you're moving to a completely different part of the world, it's quite, daunting, I guess, but also really exciting. So, uh, it's good to know that that's kind of how you can go about it is basically making connections and, you know, making friends. Finding random things on facebook groups. I've got to admit like that's the big for me I didn't even think about it until someone brought it up But when I got my job in the bvi I applied for it on this website I think it was brewingjobs. com, which I actually never seen it before and I applied for it You know had a phone conversation and then was basically doing my visa application the two weeks after and Like at some point someone was like, has it dawned on you that this could be a scam? And I was like, do you know what? It absolutely hasn't. I booked my ticket and I was like, I've never met these people. I've, you know, my contract is basically written on a piece of scrap paper and like it basically just says I have a job. And I was like, none of this, I mean all of this could be so illegitimate. It was quite it's only when someone really pointed out. I was like, yeah, you're actually right. It could be like that. It's actually even funnier because I ended up. When I landed it was night because of some delays and it was like pitch black because it's an island and we I walked off the airplane through the Extremely small airport. I mean it was like a very landing strip and a and a shack and then we came out And then we walked down the road Into this bar had a couple of beers and then we got onto a speedboat to go to this island and it was No way. Like pitch black and that that was the only point where I I actually was on this boat going Well, I could anywhere here. These people seem nice. that's how they get you. But yeah, I feel like that's like literally part of the adventure. That's why it's so fun to go and do these things abroad because it's just like, yeah, you end up with these kind of wild, wild situations that wouldn't really happen in your day to day. No, I mean, the only thing I would say is, if it's, if it's hard and you get over there and you say, I don't like it, I want to leave, give it three months. Cause it's like, there's a hump, there's a hump where you're not uncomfortable. You don't really know anybody. You feel out your depth. it's a foreign country, so everything's different. And then you feel uncomfortable in your work environment because it could used to be environmental or whatever. And then, but you just need to give yourself three months and then usually you'll find yourself, Oh, actually it's not too bad. And then you just slowly ease into it. And then before, you know, you're part, you know, you've got friends, you've got, you're hanging out, you're doing it. It's just, there's first. Just even if you hate it, give it three months. And if you if you give it three months and you still hate it, then go. But then at least you said, you've given it a good day. You don't want to go for three weeks, two weeks, three weeks and said, nah, I don't like it. And then come back to regret it. I feel like that is absolutely exceptional advice because I've been through that probably twice where it's like, you know, a month in I'm like, what have I done here? This is really like, uh, This is too much, uh, too many changes, you know, I had a good established network of friends who I could just easily go and hang out with. I don't have that now, I've got to earn it all again, start from nothing, and then, but yeah, that three month rule is gone. Golden because if you leave in the first three months, I think you'll always regret it. Whereas I think if you left you like six months or whatever and you're like, I really don't enjoy this. You can leave with no regrets. But the first time I, when I lived in America, I almost left like this close to leaving. And then it ended up changing my life because that's where I sort of fell in love with craft beer. That's where all my best friends in the UK now come from. And I've got loads of friends in America. And I was like this close to leaving. And, you know, I was looking at flights. I don't want to be here. Yeah. Uh, and yeah, it changed my life. So I feel like that, resonated really, really hard. I think that's great advice. that in Bermuda. My boss was the one who told me, it's like, just give it, give me another month. Cause I was like, I can't do it. I just couldn't do it. And then I was like, I stayed there for two years left because I had to some family commitments and then I went back for another two years. So the I still call him boss now and I still talk to him from time to time. And, yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, like you say, I came close as well. I can really, yeah, I can feel with that. It's, yeah, it's a hard one, but just stick with it. If anything says it, just stick with it. And then, you know, you can always. Phone up your friends or family. It's easier now with video calls and stuff. And if you talk to somebody, just talk with somebody, you know, and I'm sure your friends are more than happy. Just, you know, talk to you if you're just feeling a bit lonely or you're just a bit, it's just a bit, yeah. There's, there's, there's, yeah, just, just reach out and then just try and stick with it. That's all I'll say. yeah, agree 100%. I mean, it wouldn't be an episode on, on Asia and China if we don't briefly talk over, What should breweries know about sourcing brewing equipment in China? Because it's a big topic. Uh, a lot of people want to do it. a lot of people try to do it. A lot of people are afraid to do it. So, I know that's a lot of what you do, Neils, but if you could just give us sort of like a high level, like what breweries should be aware of when buying equipment from China. Okay, the first thing I'd say is If it seems to be true, that generally is still, I mean, I, I work with suppliers and I trust those suppliers and there's lots of good suppliers are out there, but there are still, unfortunately, some equipment manufacturers that aren't so good. so what I would say is, if that fermentation vessel is looking quite cheap, potentially some of the key parts are going to be three or four stainless, but some of the legs or other stuff could be two or six and they'll start to rust after a time. So, yeah, just. You know, trust your gut with some of the stuff that's out there. and then it's what you need to do is you have to be really, really detailed about everything you do. Like, for example, a lot of the companies I've worked with in the past, not necessarily now, is like, lots of dimensions will be way off the, so for the small 500 liter brew house. The dimensions of the kettle and the dimensions of the allotted time are going to be the same. So the bed deaths are going to be too high. So like, for example, a good supplier will be asking you, what is your average plateau or how many, what's your average grain bill? And then, you know, how much liquor to grist ratio are you going to do? Because then that will, Simple things like getting your bed depth right is things you need to do. and a lot of stuff doesn't come standard like a hops strainer before the heat exchanger so you can protect your heat exchanger. So what you need to do is you need to figure out exactly what you need. Then you need to go through the whole brewing process as you see it. So what I do is I'll, I work with a client and say, what do you want? What's your scope? How many, how much volume do you want now per month? How much volume do you want in two years per month? And then sit down, write it all out or your equipment list, then put it, put it together, the equipment list. Then you have to kind of make detailed notes about everything and why you want this, this, and this. Then for example, I want to, oversize my glycol chiller because I want to add phase two, I want to add more fermenters. And then you have to say like, as you go through the process, okay, then I need to make sure I've got water mixer station here. I've got my hub strainer here. So you need to find. You can tune anything because if you assume something's going to happen, you could be in for a lot of trouble because it's not necessarily going to happen. I mean, a lot of these companies do have bureaus on staff and have knowledgeable engineers, but they're not necessarily going to do it in the same way as you do it. So, for example, some Chinese brewers, they're not going to cool down their Whirlpool hops. So they don't think about having a tubular heat exchanger or a mini heat exchanger between the kettle and the Whirlpool. So you have to kind of list out exactly what you need. And then once you tell them you want it, you say, well, actually, I need to take it down to 70 or 80 degrees or whatever you need it at by this amount of time to do it. So you kind of just have to really break everything down in detail in detail and then go back and forth and make sure that's, you know, Make sure that's, properly understood by everybody almost kind of having to repeat it back. Then sometimes I even have to go to the point where I might make small diagrams. So everybody like my client understands, the equipment producer understands and everybody's like, okay, I get the concept now. so yeah, and then what I'll do is you'll end up having quite a lot of conversations and I find like email chains can get lost. So what's good I find is you have a live word document. maybe a Google Sheet or you have a, I don't, the Google Word document. I don't know what that is. And then what you can do is, yeah. And then what you'll do is you can have different colors. And then as people add more, they can go underneath and then you can follow that chain for every individual part. So if you start talking about the latter 10, it has to be, okay, it has to be this bed depth. Then it's like, uh, what's the support structure like, how many rings. I don't know how many points are we taking off and then you know what I mean? Then you can keep adding to it and then eventually you've got a document with a lot of time But it needs to be this bed depth I want to take from four or five six points and that kind of stuff and then you It's kind of a, just a gradual process, but they're not going to, a lot of, they're not going to ask you, you have to tell them how to do it to make sure you get what you want. That was what I would say is the biggest thing. And then, so it's three forms of communication. You have your Excel doc where you've listed it all out. You have your live document. And then for quick chats back and forth, you might have to use WhatsApp as well. So it's kind of, communication is just really, really, really, really key. Over here is what I would say and then work with your suppliers and then Repeat back to people and say did you understand that and they're like, you know what it does You know, sometimes you have to see like what did I say? Did you understand that and go back and forth? just to make sure that is but then you do get you do get points where you can check it because you'll you'll end up having your technical diagrams then you'll have your PID you have your piping layout, but once those are all green It's very hard to then go back You know what I mean? So try and be as prepared and cover yourself as much as you can along the line. again, it makes sense to come out and visit three or four suppliers that maybe you potentially you've been speaking to. Go to their, go to their factories, speak to them. also get, ask them to give you testimonials or allow you to speak with previous clients if you can. even that price of coming to China is still going to be offset by the total cost. Yeah, really interesting. I guess for people who don't have, uh, let's say onsite engineers or process design, people who can't really truly design an entire, let's say brew house, for example, system, then that's why they would go to a company. who would, who have those people who would then go to manufacturers elsewhere and get those made to those specifications. But if you wanted to skip that process for the cost saving side, then you need either someone in house or someone like yourself who could act as that person to design the things as well. Is that something that you offer? yeah, I do. As I say, it's, it's a lot of communication go back and forth. So, if people come to me, I, I start off with like an initial 13 question document so I can get initial idea of scope. And then from there, uh, once I've answered that, we'll go back and forth on email a few times. And once I feel like I've got quite a good understanding of what they do. Then I, what I'll do is I usually jump on a, on a call because what I want to do is I want to be partially prepped. So when we actually have that initial call, we we know roughly we're on the same page and then that's allows us to be quite productive when we're chatting. And then it's asking the questions, like finding out what do they need? Do they need a, you know, what temperature they want to take their whirlpool answer this. And then once I understand. All the technical aspects of what they need, then we all can together, we can speak with the engineers and then get that done. And then before anything gets done, we can, we can put those into drawings and then we can make sure those drawings are right. So when it actually comes to the fabrication, the fabrications as the drawing, so it will, you know what I mean? Hope the plan is with the prior preparation and planning, we'll have. The equipment that is needed once it comes to the end of the fabrication, if that makes sense. Yeah. Perfect sense. Yeah. That's great. So just with my experience in Britain over a number of years on different equipment, it's just given me a lot of insight into what's needed from the technical and equipment point of view. And also doing this as my day job now for a number of years, I've kind of, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. You, you're well versed in it instead of what someone's might be doing every 10 years, you do it, you know, every month. So, uh, dream about get that more. piping diamonds sometimes. Neil, my final question for you, how do you see the Asian beer market evolving over the next, let's say, five to ten years, so quite far? Hmm. it's kind of hard to take Asia as a whole because different parts of Asia are different points of their craft journey. So I would have said China was quite far advanced at one point, but it seems to have stagnated a bit, but China is still, China and Korea, you know, there's definitely a good craft beer scene. There's lots of craft breweries. And then you would go to say, Thailand. Which is maybe five, six years behind, seven years behind. And then maybe you go to the Philippines, which again is further behind. So it's kind of like layers on layers. And then obviously finding in the future, in the next 10 years, how quickly will some of these markets develop? Because, you know, in Asia, things can happen quite quickly. You know, if, if, if, if there's enough, interest and there's, you know, there's enough tourists going into Thailand, Thailand could just kind of take off. If the regulations are there, so in general, it's, it's going to be interesting to, to, to see what happens and I would, I would see that you're going to see a lot more smaller breweries becoming established. And then like, say, for example, in 10 years time, we will probably have a lot more craft production breweries that are doing to a certain amount of volume. And then, you know, maybe some of these Asian breweries will, you'll see them going over to the UK, maybe going over to the US. And that would be something I would like to see. You see it a little bit now. I don't know if you've just seen it, but Siren in the UK has just done a collaboration with three breweries Maheen, Wild West and Bravo. And that's going to be, I think you might see a bit of more of that. So each other brewery can potentially move into the, to the other's market. cause I know Guilo did that with vocation. I think it was before as well. so I would hopefully like to see that there would be some Asian brands that maybe develop and start to get more recognized on the international stage. Probably one of the most interesting ones for me right now is actually the Indian craft beer scene. It seems to be coming back really well recently from COVID in this last year, because I think it really, really struggled through COVID as much as China. And, you know, Bangalore, Bangalore is a real center, but I'm seeing quite a, actually, I'm seeing quite a lot of jobs where they're looking for quite senior people in brewing to go over there to, work over expanding, you know, projects to expand production breweries and so on. so I feel like India could be one of the ones that really maybe it comes through. More in the future. I'd be I think that could be an interesting one if that answers it. Yeah, a really good tip. I feel like I i've seen that market i've had uh anchor, uh nappa on my podcast before he talked to Sure. Yeah about the indian market probably maybe some of that was off air, but Yeah, really fascinating how it's it seems to be exploding a little bit especially as you said in like in centers rather than the the whole country, but yeah, really fascinating market and Yeah yeah, I, I, I'm keeping my eye on it because I think it's really interesting. Neil, I mean, look, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure. Uh, there's so much insight in here and I feel like for, uh, For me, I, I probably didn't appreciate the Asian market as much. I didn't understand it. I think I had this lazy label of it was always growing. So it's really good to hear like sort of the real world, what's actually happening and how brewers might be able to expand and how brewers might be able to, to expand themselves into, into that market. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. Well, yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me on it's been it's been fun. yes, as I say, I'm quite I I'm quite attached to the chinese market and to be able to speak about the chinese and asian market You know, it's you know, given that platform has been really nice. So yeah, appreciate it. Thank you very much Thank you so much, Neil. Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode If you can remember to share the pod with a brewing friend or acquaintance or colleague, that would be awesome. It would really help me out and help the podcast grow. So, thank you so much for your support and as always, I will catch you on the next episode of the modern brewer podcast..