Ep 36 - Brewery Branding - Nick Dwyer - Beavertown

In this episode, we dive into the art and evolution of Beavertown’s branding with none other than Nick Dwyer, the creative mind behind Beavertown’s iconic look.

From the home brew kits in the early days to navigating life under Heineken, Nick shares a candid glimpse into the world of brewery design and its challenges.

What you'll learn:
💀 How Beavertown’s unique branding came to life
🏗️ The highs and lows of merging creativity with commercial goals
💘 Why authenticity is non-negotiable in brand evolution
🏆 Nick's top 3 tips for branding success

00:00 Introduction and Year-End Recap
03:38 Sponsor Message
04:53 Nick Dwyer's Journey and Beavertown's Early Days
06:05 Evolution of Beavertown's Branding
17:54 Challenges and Changes Post-Heineken Deal
24:27 Current Projects and Future Outlook
37:27 Balancing Consistency and Innovation in Branding
38:00 Navigating Brand Evolution with Heineken
41:10 Consumer Insights and Commercial Goals
43:23 The Role of Consumer Feedback in Branding
46:55 The Importance of Authenticity in Branding
53:07 Challenges and Successes in Brewery Branding
01:02:08 Nick's Top 3 Most Important Things For a Brewery's Branding
01:05:33 Personal Reflections and Future Endeavors
01:09:41 Conclusion and Podcast Wrap-Up

Whether you're a brewer, designer or just love a beer, this episode is a masterclass in standing out without losing your identity.

Thanks to this episodes sponsor - SSV Limited - Brew more. Brew better!

🔗 Nick’s LinkedIn
🔗 Chris’s LinkedIn
🏭 SSV Limited

Transcript

0:13

Hello listeners and welcome to the latest episode of the Modern Brewer podcast with me, your host, Chris Lewington. Well, Christmas is almost upon us. I hope every single one out there is having a super busy festive period, very productive and selling lots of beer because Lord knows we all kind of need it. This will actually be the final episode of the Modern Brewer podcast for this year in this format. I'm actually going to record a recap. Of the year that's just gone past, episode highlights and my top takeaways from the year. I will also be sharing trends from last year and predictions for the future year in 2025 for the brewing industry. So hopefully there's some good content in there. But the final episode of 2024 is an absolute banger. Most of us have lived through the glory years of craft beer, especially, you know, between like 2011, 2019 sort of time. And within those years, we established some of our country's most loved, revered, and respected breweries. Apart from BrewDog, none quite had the success of BeaverTown. Started in the basement of the once iconic Duke's Brewing Queue in Dubois Town in London. This business went from 0 to 60 in record breaking time. It captivated craft beer fans, dominated national and international beer festivals, and created arguably the strongest individual craft beer brand in the UK, which is Neck Oil. Then, in 2018, one of those craft beer world shockwaves. Beavertown sold 49 percent of the company to Heineken. The public outcry was substantial, something I've never quite seen before or since. However, commercially since then, Beavertown has continued to grow its presence in the UK, especially in London. I live here and I rarely go to a pub without seeing Neck Oil on anymore. And to give you an idea, one of my really close friends, she runs a craft beer pub here. And she was saying she actually can't have Neck Oil on because as soon as she puts it on, no one will drink anything else. So how did Beavertown achieve such success? It would be naive to presume that there's only one single driver for this success. Cause the success is always the sum of all parts, but there is one aspect of their success that literally no one can contest and it's the power of their branding. So with me today, we're is someone who might have had one of the largest impacts on the craft beer world here in the UK. It's the creative director of Beavertown, Nick Dwyer. We're going to learn a little bit about Nick's life, how he created Beavertown's imagery, how he managed the transition from darling craft brewery to being a part of one of the biggest global corporations, how to, and importantly, how not to brand your craft brewery. before we get into this episode, a reminder that all of this is made possible by our wonderful sponsors. And this episode is proudly sponsored by SSV limited, your trusted partner in crafting bespoke products and solutions for the beverage industry, whether you're just getting started or scaling up. SSV Limited is there every step of the way from initial conception through installation to commissioning of your new equipment with exceptional after sales support. With over a decade of experience, SSV Limited has been there supporting the beverage industry across the UK and Europe, delivering top tier innovative brewing systems, CO2 recovery solutions, process and storage tanks, as well as everything in between. Their expertise ensures that your project meets and exceeds your expectations from concept to completion. Ready to take your business to the next level? Visit ssvlimited. co. uk to learn more about their custom built solutions. SSV Limited, brew more, brew better. So buckle up listeners and let's dive into the world of brewery branding with the iconic Nick Dwyer. Welcome to the show. Nick Dwyer. Hello, it's good to see you Chris. Yeah, man, I haven't, I haven't actually seen you in a while, eh? But it's, Well, unless you, much for coming unless you count the like high five we did when we saw each other running about a couple of weeks ago, but yeah, actually felt well cooler than I think it maybe have looked. Uh I was like, I actually was like physically like, Oh my God, get this right. Like I was like 20 feet away. Like where's his hand. I'm going to get it. And it was like, you know, angling was, we caught it, it was good. you were running quick as well. Because I was on a slow run, and I have like this thing, I was like, Oh god, I hope you didn't think I was running really slowly for no reason at all, like, Like that would matter, but it felt like it was really important to me at the Some people say that to me without realizing that I just go for like a short, short quick run. So I'm just like, I'm just like, not like, yeah, I know how you do your like big marathons and stuff. Whereas I'm just like, I just have 20 minutes to like get myself sweaty a bit. And so I don't feel like a piece of shit the rest of the day. Whereas like, I mean, you were sending it, man, it was good. that feedback. well, that's what, that's it. End of the show. That was cool. running with Nick Dwyer. That's it. all right, man. Well, look, I mean, I think everyone probably knows who you are, to be honest, who's listened to this show, but so maybe you could just start by like telling us. Going right into it, like your journey into the world of craft beer. So maybe even like before Beavertown's time and, and yeah. And how it sort of evolved you as an artist. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, my first experience of craft beer was Beavertown. So it was when I came from, kind of do, I was, I was working in restaurants after I left art school, which is like, which is what you do as a, as an art student who's just left art school. And, but like trying to do like anything I could possibly do. So I think I was doing a couple of like menu illustrations for the place I was working, which was like a silver service place in Shoreditch. And my mate James, who was also at art school, but kind of immediately quit art and had been using the kind of homebrew kits, I think like Woodford's wary homebrew kit, which is like close to my heart, and that sort of thing. And then had kind of. I've managed to go and, I guess like intern slash apprentice with Evan at The Kernel, who had then told Logan that he had this guy that he didn't have a place for, but you're starting a brewery and might be a really good person to come help you out. and then he came to me and went, Oh wait, you know, I've been working with this guy and it's been really fun. And, you know, we're making these beers and serving them in the restaurant that we work at. Would you be up for doing a couple of labels? And it really, really did not, it felt like, Oh yeah, absolutely anything, anything. yeah. And, uh, went and sat down with him and, him and Logan in, in Jukes, the restaurant, the fabled Jukes. And, uh, he's like, we've got this beer, we've got this beer, it's called Gamma Ray. and we've got another beer called Black Betty. And James says, you know, you, you, I've seen your illustrations, they look cool, can you have a crack at it? Absolutely went away, came back with what I thought were like finished labels and was like these are great, these are awesome. And they were like, well, we're going to give you some feedback and you need to change them. And they kind of changed into two labels, the original Gamma Ray and the original Black Betty. I mean more on that story later because like I do think that that Gamma Ray, there's like no Beaver Town without that Gamma Ray label basically. Like I just, I genuinely think that. But, and also coming and doing the sessions with them, I saw how cool it looked to be in the restaurant that they were, they were brewing in because the setup was brewing in the kitchen, much to the chagrin of the chefs. And, uh, then the chefs would come in, they'd leave, they'd go, into the bar and serve the beers. They brewed obviously when they were ready, uh, in the night. And so I was, I was like, this is amazing. This is so cool. Can I come work here? And they were like, we'll talk to the manager and get the job. So I got a job there, which meant more FaceTime with Logan, more hanging out with James, more kind of showing him stuff. and from there, I was kind of able to work my way into the system that Logan had. The, which was like, I'm going to get a new artist every time I do a beer because of the concept had no more aspiration than like local artists doing every single beer forever, serving beers on the bar forever. four barrel kit forever. Mm hmm. And, uh, which I think still exists in, in, in Lockwood. and because I was there all the time, I was able to basically show up with a sketchbook full of kind of finished ideas and be like, ah, like I'm still working on this, but maybe it goes on a beer label. And that's how, Bloody Hour, the original Bloody Hour label came to be. but at the whole time, the kind of brand wasn't quite, wasn't quite kind of settled in Logan's mind. He had one brand originally from a branding agency that costs about 10. 10, 000 pounds, which I think is an important detail. And at that point he was paid, he's like, got to get this right. 10, 000 pounds, all the ideas, which almost immediately got scrapped. and then he's like, and you're doing this for exposure. So awesome. and, and, and it was, and it was still Jonah Schultz. He was kind of working on the main brand, the original kind of dollar bill style brand, who now does all the new barn stuff with, with Johnny and Fred and, You know, the XP, XP Town employees and stuff and, and, uh, it does a great job, which they're, they're sick. and, And I was kind of in the background, kind of working on the back end of stuff. So getting labels ready to go to the printing place and doing a bit of the website stuff and working a little bit and we kind of jumped and all of a sudden Logan had moved into the space in Hackney Wick, the big warehouse that was like half of what Truman's is now the hold on. So Truman's were next to us. We had the next to get the bit. And, When I eventually managed to leave being a waiter, as well as doing the design work, because he was like, come on board full time and we'll get this like, being a proper thing. I think it's time we had someone doing our kind of marketing and design. Even though I had no idea about marketing, it was just purely artistry, I guess. He went to America, which is, you know, like that's where the, the impetus for Beaverton came from American craft brewing was taking off and he wanted to bring it to the UK, bit of a reductive take on the whole thing, but that was it. And, he came in, I remember one time after a trip to see a couple of breweries, I think Dogfish Head, because Sam was such a big kind of influence and help to the start. And he was like, look, they're really, they're really, they're really going for it with the artwork in America. I wrapped your, your Gamma Ray label around a Coke can. I think we go into 330. Beer cans, and I think you just redesigned everything for us, and that was, that was it, like he, a month, a month of kind of like Logan breathing into my ear. Looking at my laptop screen, a bit more red, a bit more yellow, not sure about that colour. I changed this, changed that, you know, designed by committee, which is something from that day on I've like fought to avoid. even as we grow and they're like an owned by a multinational, it's still like, please just go away. Which doesn't, doesn't, doesn't gel well with some, some kind of managing principles. But after that we created the kind of five, the five original Beavertown canned beers. Obviously there were original beers before, but like the kind of canned beers. And we took the, what, what I saw people doing and saying about the original Gamma Ray bottle, which was like the shift in my mind from like my ego being just my ego and wanting people to think, Oh, you're such a good illustrator. You're so cool. You love like sci fi and star Wars. Wow. So original. That's amazing. Sort of thing became like, wow, I really want this business to succeed. If, if everybody's going to, every time we create something, everyone's going to look at and taste something. And have that reaction to our faces, then I want to be there forever doing that. And it just, that became the kind of like plan that became the brand ethos and the plan of just like, we, we need everybody to go, wow, that looks cool. Wow. This tastes delicious. Every single time we did something. And it was why, it was why we got away with like not doing any marketing, you know, I didn't know how to do it anyway, but we just, we just, we did cool, we did cool beers that taste delicious. and had a really fantastic story. I mean, like Logan is basically like a one stop shop of like amazing things. If you look at, you know, his life and, uh, his family and, And, you know, what he's doing now and like, you know, even like, you know, people were super interested in, like, you know, the fact that he had kids and his family life and how that dynamic works. And it was just like, we kind of exact, exact place, exact right time, exact right people. And then when we were kind of in our, in our insane growth phase, it was like 10 months, 10 months between kind of jumping sites. So we'd gone from being 10 months at Duke's just Duke's to like having a lockup that we needed because we needed more space to ferment in like baked, borrowed, stolen, occasionally plastic vessel, you know, and, uh, uh, making the beers that way. And then 10 months between going, We need a proper brewery Hackney Wick. Oh, that's where all the beers were created to begin with we had the Infamous mezzanine so the the brew house was below the mezzanine where we all work so when they were brewing it was just a steamy mess of laptops and furniture from skips and everyone kind of sharing a big glass desk and it just like that that was and when you couldn't flush the toilet while they were doing the transfer because it like changed the water pressure and the one toilet and uh And then it was 10 months before we had Lockwood and Tottenham Hale, which is where we exploded and where you worked. And where, you know, we, we like absolutely not only kind of cut our teeth with the kind of industry and community of, of British craft beer, but we kind of became, you know, leaders in it. I think it's that arrogant to say we like properly where we were properly like responsible for the beer fridges kind of brightening up a bit to begin with. Which was great, like it really, like I had a weird attitude to it where like when, when stuff came along that was kind of copying what we were doing, it was just more energy to like be better. It was like, all right, you want to play this game? Let's go. and then alongside the kind of beers, as you know, we, at that point had like, we were such a tight group of, of people and brewers and everyone kind of interacted and went to the pub and we all had like really messy nights at the brewery that like management really weren't allowed to know about and like, you know, just like just doing things together, the leaving card, like the one you've got behind you, like, you know, everyone kind of got like nice little tokens of their, of their time at Beavertown. And we had the tap room, which we were, which, you know, we've discussed in detail, but like the tap room was such a great, such a great spot. and you know, it was, it was a tap room. It was, it was, uh, I can't remember what those benches are called, but you know the ones. The benches, the tables, the, uh, like the Oktoberfest benches, I don't know, Uh, and, and it was, and it was cold and you were uncomfortable and the queue is pretty huge. But if, you know, occasionally you get a nice free beer, if you were just like, I've waited such a long time, they'd be like, no worries, here's a free one, or here's like five free ones. So. Someone would disappear off into the warehouse that was just a member of the public and go find them kind of like Half asleep on a bag of molds or something like this were the days You know before you before you had kind of everyone looking in and going well, you gotta tighten up these processes Yeah. What are your processes? What are processes? Oh. don't even work here. Oh, you're from the police. Oh no. but, uh, but yeah, so then we got to that point and then there's kind of a period which it kind of almost moved a bit too fast where I don't really remember how we kind of got there, but there was the extravaganza 8000 people coming to the festival. We put on with about 10 members of staff managing it. and, Uh, multiple, multinational beer festivals, like going all over the world, kind of spreading out. It be, I remember being in like, Scandinavia really early on and having to not be in Scandinavia because it was like, well, we need some beer for London, which was, I remember that being a big thing and being like, that makes sense. Like, that seems like we've done a bit too much in one direction, but I'm sure there was, there's. felt like the extravaganza was a really big moment, actually. it was where I was like, the tap room is a perfect analogy. It's just like, that's what Beavertown felt like. And then, day in, day out. And then we went to the extravaganza, we did, the people who pulled that off. And I was just like, oh my god, this is, this is amazing. This is huge. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 000 people who are willing to come and drink these beers and I was like this is A print works as well like the epic venue and then the legendary after parties and stuff And I was just like this is serious. Like this is this is a big This is a seriously growing big brand at the moment It was. Yeah. And it was mad. And the whole time the, the, you know, the whole time the artwork was still a big deal. The branding, the artwork. I mean, it was people really, people really engaged with it in a way that I could never have dreamed about, you know, like I just, I got, I mean, like, I don't think anybody doesn't get into art to have people kind of adore them. Right. Like I think it's, I think there's, there's got to, there's got to be like, you know, yes, tortured poets. Yes. Like people who are genuinely like pure craft without kind of a consideration of ego or whatever. But like, I don't think there's anybody in the world who wouldn't like it a little bit if someone was like, that's cool. And when people are kind of forced to look at it because they like the beer or just beer, it's, it's like the easy route, you know, it's like, it's the easy route to that level of kind of like, Oh yeah, like you've seen my artwork. It's on that, it's on that beer in it. And it feels great. And it, but it also is like, it was energizing. It was really energizing. So you have to really stay on top of that because you're under as much scrutiny as the, as the I guess this is a good segue into post extravaganza. announcement of Heineken deals and things like that and the very, very reasonable backlash, you know, the very reasonable disappointment in people because you're on this, you're on this trajectory upwards. And the trajectory upwards, it feels like everybody's like a crowd surf, right? It's like you're, you're crowd surfing. And then when you get to the end of the crowd surf, you're like, we don't need you anymore. We've actually got these robots that are going to hold us up from now. And we don't need, you can go away. And in a way, I mean, I know that's how people saw it. and I'm not trying to like, you know, diss anybody or anything, but it's, it's, it's definitely the community. The craft beer, the zeitgeist, the thing that was like the perfect timing for us was, it was, uh, you know, it was, as you know, it was scary when your feedback comes from social media and it's, and, and just people and then, and all of a sudden people can turn on a dime because they care. They don't, they don't really care about you. They, they love you and they care about you, but they don't really just care about you. They, they're like, I want this whole thing to keep going. And it's a sellout, right? You're selling out. And, and everybody has this, this view of that because everybody knows about a little bit about music and there's like, there's real like comparisons to be drawn between bands that like all of a sudden weren't independent anymore. And it looks like you're kind of taking the easy route out and you're doing this thing. And for me as well, like hearing about it for the first time and that it was going to happen was, Was, just like, Oh God, like, wow, this, there's going to be like a stop here. There's going to be like a real, like there's a wall, there's an absolute wall. And you don't know what's behind that wall, but there's definitely something you have to like get over. and in this, I just, I think it's important to also say like, It's only hard because of the egos involved. It's not hard because it's like, ah, like I'm so stressed and like, it's such hard work and it's all this kind of stuff. It's just purely you've been, you've been running on the gas of the people, like adoring everything that the brewery does and wanting to engage with it. And then all of a sudden it's a bit of a bit of a naughty word for people to, to like beat the time and things like that. but then after that, I mean, even, even now, I was kind of thinking the other day that the extravaganza was so big that I don't think any of us could really think what the next step was after that, like, in terms of, you know, where we were, and now, now it makes sense because you can see it from like a distance and it's like, Oh yeah, like it makes sense. It doesn't mean it wasn't, it wasn't shitty and hard for like a period, but it was like, it was, it was difficult because not only do people. You know, the general public stopped feeling the same way, but you, you get it. I mean, we had a lot of people leave, as you know, and go and they were like, no, I liked it when it was like that. And there's other ways I can keep doing that, which is like the very admirable actually, because like, you know, it's just the way it works. But, we then in turn, like from a brand perspective, it was like, well, we need to keep this energy up because people are used to this happening and then everything they like about that brand just disappears. And there are examples. I mean, probably like. You're, you're the listeners of this podcast are probably very savvy enough to know exactly what I'm talking about, but it's, it does happen, which is why it's like, it's, it's a, it's a fear. You know, it's not, it's very much not going to stay the same. It's very much not business as usual. It's very much not kind of like, well, but we're still, you know, the exact guys, you know, in love and we, and, you know, we, we talked about it, but like a good example of something that I can kind of point out and hold our hands up is like, can't. We couldn't keep doing the tap room the way we were doing it with the, with, with the Heineken ownership, right? But we also couldn't not have a tap room because it's like, well, we kind of need a kind of bit of a destination. We're trying to work out what we're doing. So you pump quite a lot of energy into something that ends up being a little bit of a nothing. You know, you're not getting the character of a, like a very cobbled together, almost community led tap room. And you're also not getting a bells and whistles. Tank house with like all of the like amazing pouring and dispense methods and like cleaning methods and all that kind of stuff So it's kind of you get like a bit of a bit of a nothing because then that's where the kind of emulation of Small comes from but the frustration is there is like no, but look what we used to do Like it's not like we've just like tried to fake it. We have the credentials so I think To put it into a brand perspective, it's, it's more like, that there came a point where everything kind of clicked into place for everyone. It's like, right, what we used to do and what we had as a brand and as a brewery needs to be concrete and a foundation for what we now do and not something which is like a crutch that we rely on for people to like us. So everything changes and it's like, all right, we did get here through a lot of hard work. Team was tiny. We did all this stuff. There are so many people I can point at. Who made that journey so amazing and, and did, and did such a good job with like such little resources and just, we made us exactly who we are. And everybody, everybody, like all everybody who bought Beaver Hand as well did that and it was great. And then you kind of go, right, well actually, you know, the focus is supermarkets. The focus is, you know, on trade and off trade in, in a large way that isn't the same on trade and off trade. Hopefully. You're really trying not to, like, cap the smaller breweries and, like, compete and try and, like, mess them over. obviously it does, it does kind of happen. Naturally and obviously the frustrations are there and obviously there's quite a lot of justified finger pointing some not so justified finger pointing It's interesting to me the way that like the like craft breweries are kind of there's almost like a resurgence Which is weirdly paralleling with that indie music coming back a bit like a lot of indie bands are like coming back But I think a lot of breweries are The last thing I was reading is they're kind of taking craft to the word craft out of things and they're just doing it Directly independent breweries, like it's like we're, we're independent breweries, which is a great way to, we'll just do what you said, do what it says on the tin, right? Like, that's not something, we, we still, I mean, like, this is not, this is, I mean, I might be in trouble for saying this, but it's kind of frustrating to me that we still, we still use the word craft for some things, because I think that, you know, It can be a bit misleading. It can be a bit kind of like, owning something that you, that, that needs other people to own. I just like, I like beer. I like the word beer being what we make because we're a brewery. But it can, but like, yeah, that's more of a personal take. But, you know, but, but again, it's also to do with like how we operate and what we need to be doing. And, you know, even like website SEO is like when you, you need to include certain words to kind of even be on Google's list of beer things and yada yada, there's a lot to it. but that, yeah, that kind of gets us to today. So today is, if you're, if you're still following people down, on social media as a craft beer fan, do a lot of big, big, big projects. So like we just had Halloween, we did three different animations that were kind of trailers to fake kind of fake, uh, Halloween films. And we kind of linked that to, uh, playing the X's, the Prince Charles cinema. And then when people turn up to the Prince Charles cinema, There are like people dressed as like zombies, werewolves, mummies, and fake paparazzi taking pictures Which is amazing because you've got a lot of tourists being like, where are the celebrities? Like, properly, like, like, that it was just this activation And then the really cool projects for me now, you know, it feels like a totally new job Are, the kind of big out of home stuff, like doing the big billboards, learning about what the kind of media, the media guys are buying and why and where it is and working that out. And yeah, you kind of see, it kind of takes away, like it's, it can be unfortunate the way people think about aggressive advertising and marketing, but I mean, I think we ended up our first campaign. I remember chatting to most of the people who did the stuff they did, but in our first campaign, we kind of. Went with like a package of billboards and it meant that a few of those billboards were like close to or outside of other breweries. And that, that, I mean, there's no way that doesn't feel aggressive, right? Like there's no way. yeah, it definitely does, And they, and they like either photoshopped or went and sprayed over bits of it and stuff. And I was like, it's cool. It's like, it's, yeah, like, it's quite, it's quite funny. and the designers for those breweries would like, we'd, we'd chat and I'd be like, I think it's cool. Like it's not a big deal. again, it's just like quite a nice little, nice little nudge and, you know, keeping, being held accountable a bit. And then after that, we like, it's like, all right, now we need to actually strategically not do that. Cause that's not. Not that, we're not that brewery. and I don't like the idea of ever like going on the attack. And when, when we get kind of like pitched ideas, uh, for like general ideas that are like even remotely, like saying something's bad because we're good. I'm like, we don't need that. Like it's, you really always want to be on the, like, we're just, this is, we believe in this and that sort of thing. When it comes to, to branding as well. but yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of strange, there's a lot of strange like learnings coming. This is still my first job when I've been at 13 years, man. So it's like, it's kind of, it's kind of like, it's kind of, there's a lot of learnings to it and now it's not, you know, very much the brand, the brand plan was, uh, draw a cool picture. Profit. Yeah. profit. and now it's like, you know, people shout words at me, like shop ability, it's clarity and, uh, you know, do they get the tone as a tone of voice ownable and it's like, uh, yeah, it's like, it's really, it's, it's new, it's new thinking for me, but everything, we still have, we still have that kind of filter that things go through when it comes to the more kind of standard marketing thing, which I hope I'm a big part of kind of, you know, we get some, we get some consumer insights or some feedback and then I'm like, well, that's, that's great. But like, make sure it goes, make sure it happens the right way. Mm hmm. So, What were the biggest drivers for, like, the big Beavertown brand changes? Well, brand changes might be a strong term, but, you know, a good one was, like, back in the day I remember there was that Illuminati. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that changed. And then we had the cans with the school faces on, which I think was originally people there. And then there was a big change from that can to basically what Neck Oil is today, similarly, I believe. like what, what sort of inspired those changes? Were they coming from you? Were they coming from, was it a group decision? Like, yeah, I'm really interested to know what was behind the scenes on that. So like, like in, in a kind of sentence, I was like belligerently against anything remaining that I hadn't created. You know, it was like, it was, it was, it was a very selfish reasoning behind like wanting to push for things, but it didn't just happen in like a one, you know, there were things that Logan was quite into. that took a bit of, you know, I found out quickly that if you just go, you thought this was good, but it's not good, then it, then that, that won't be a good way to get the way you want things to happen. and he'd be fine. I think, I think he'd be okay with me saying that, uh, even now, but this is a sort of interview where I'm like, did you see that interview I did with Chris? uh, yeah, so the Illuminati stuff was purely Logan. I think I forget what specifically he was reading about, but it was, I mean, it's why we kind of came, became so close as we both had kind of like, not niche, but kind of like teenage boy niche, like, like things we liked. I mean, like we love Star Wars and sci fi and like Lord of the Rings and all that kind of stuff. and he was, he was really into it. He wanted the pyramid and the Illuminati and he liked the dollar bill artworks to begin with. They came off the back of. The original branding, which was very, it's hard to explain the original branding without looking at it. It's available online. Uh, but it's kind of like, like a, like an American, uh, like smokehouse artwork, but in, but in the form of like a British pump clip for, for a car scale. Yeah, I think that's the way I'd put it. If you imagine if Timothy, if you imagine if Timothy Taylor was wearing a cowboy hat, it's kind of like that. Or like the, or Landlord, the Landlord on the Landlord, uh, punk I was wearing. But yeah, it was like, but it just said like, it just said Beavertown and like he was kind of like, again, like, not, probably not telling him about this, but like, he's like, he thought it was quite cool the way that the word, the B of Beavertown in the triangle and he's like, you know, cause it's like a mystical spooky number and even, and I, even I, then it was like a bit like, Oh, all right, man, cool. but, yeah, so we had that for a bit and it kind of like, there was quite a, quite a quick shift into my illustration style via gamma ray being so popular. but maintaining it was very strict about it. Actually, he was like, every artwork has to have the pyramid in it. And it has to be quite big and it has to be where the logo is. And, and like, you know, we created our own font, but it was like that. It has to kind of sit close by. And it was, you know, there was a lot of, he did a lot of the art direction. Even though I was like the art director, but he did a lot of the kind of, I know it needs to be like this. I really do like this. Like it was self expression through from him and as frustrating as it could be, it's like so justified and wonderful. He did that because it, it kind of like shaped. And every time I realized that like I was going to need to do these things every time, those limitations. Became ways of working them into things in a very organic way. Instead of finishing an artwork and be like, Oh yeah, here's the pyramid. and then, so the, and the, so the neck oil one's quite different because neck oil became. Gamma Ray was obviously the first big beer and people still are like, Oh wow. Yeah. I remember my first Gamma Ray. Like Gamma Ray was always like number one, again, like four or five pounds of a 5. 4 percent APA, which is, which is what the doctor ordered like every day. Used to drink a lot of it too. And, uh, when, when neck oil started to like come up, it was like, Again, the kind of right time where people were like, those IPAs are great, but maybe there's a, there's a massive space for something a lot lighter. That's the session IPA, right? Which is now probably the most common beer style, you know, on the, in the on trade. even if it's not called session IPA, you've got a kind of like ABV range of like three to four or five ish. that is something that you could technically drink a, you know, a bit of, and as it kind of got bigger and bigger, Neck Oil, the original artwork with all the skulls on it was like, that was when we moved into Lockwood and started brewing it in cans. Cause it was, it was like Gamma Ray and I think like Smog Rocket and Eight Ball. And then Neck Oil kind of came a bit later, I think, I can't remember. And the can artwork was like, well, everybody, it's like a team of like 12 people, including some of my friends who'd been like putting together furniture and stuff with pallets. Heh. as skeletons and skulls. Which is, which is so lovely. And I, you know, I've got only a few of those left and there's, there's definitely a few tattoos of that out in the world, which is quite funny because they didn't know. They just thought it was like, Oh, cool skeletons. and then the, when, the neck oil recipe was kind of evolving and changing the whole time gamma ray was gaining traction. So, you know, best better bathrooms clone through to more like, Keg beer, pale ale, but still on the maltier side, less hops, more, then more and more American hops, more New Zealand hops, I think. Not great on that. You'd know better. But the, uh, and then when, as it kind of changed into that beer, it was like, right, this actually needs to be, It needs like a, it needs like a schism basically, like it needs to shift into being a brand new thing that we can do what we did with GammaRay with, with an artwork. So it was really important. And it was another thing that Logan and I worked really close on. I remember like one Christmas, that would have been like Christmas 2014 or 15, he was like sending me photos of packing tapes he liked the colours of, which is actually how the orange and the yellow came to be. and put this, and I'd done it so it was a bit more like, GammaRay had like a blue sky and stuff in it. And I think he was like, yeah, maybe, but like, it needs to be its own thing. And so then, then it got the kind of oranginess because the, you know, it was very much like this flavor is coming through and he's not saying this to me. Now I get that feedback and it's like, we've got to make sure the flavor is apparent from the colors on the can, but then it wasn't, he wasn't doing it on purpose, but he kind of was, does that make sense? It's like, Yeah. You know, getting this like orange, like a little bit hazy, IPA basically like a, like a mini IPA and then that, that became the artwork, the skull. Logo replaced the Illuminati artwork when our, head of sales and marketing, Lauren, were you, did you cross over? Yeah. You cross over Lauren. She just was like, I was in the shower. And like, I just thought like, why don't we just change the O in Beavertown to it? Like one of your skulls. And I was like, I mean, I think I, I think I would, wouldn't do that from the beginning, but it was kind of like, no, just like, you know, our Beavertowns are like, and then the triangle is our logo and it, we put it in and they, they were, they were together for a while. So we set up the pyramid with the triangle. And then Beavertown with Skull in the name, and then we, we moved away from, basically I had to like strong arm it and be like, come on, man, it's time, it's time to let it go. All right, let's just, let's, let's take down the posters and let's put up some framed artworks in the house. Okay. Like the Che Guevara poster is coming down, the rugs on the walls are coming down. we're going to have a bit of a clean up and then, just imagined that the pyramid getting slowly closest to the edge of the can designed Well, actually, well, you, you say that, but if you look at the lineage of them, the pyramid gets a bit smaller, like it's a tiny bit kind of gaslighting Logan. I'm like, no, they're all the same size. They're all the same size. but yeah, then it kind of like changed and, but then it kind of opened up the avenue of it being like, well, that's our character. Everything that we do now, we've got the phantom range was the first kind of like range of skeletons. with the, with the kettle sours and the, Mm, yeah, it just, and again, it just, it plugged straight into somehow what people really wanted to see and drink. And it was, and it was a really easy thing to get, to get people on board with. And it, when it was, it made it kind of like the justification really easy too, because now it's like, well, what were you kind of designing for kids? And it's like, well, designing for people who used to be kids, they used to love this stuff and they kind of still do love this stuff, but now they like beer as well. So obviously. The, yeah, like the kind of like the mini three sentence version is the Portman group did come and talk to us about kind of appealing to under 18s and six months of my life was pretending to be a lawyer, emailing them stuff back and forwards about like line thickness and the colors the Simpsons used versus the colors we used, the colors, the colors that Bob the Builders used versus the Necro color. And, you know, like it was a while of, but we got there, you know, we got there in the end and they kind of, they saw it and it kind of, that also opened the door a bit for other brands. But then it also like not funnily, and I don't, I don't mean like, I'm glad other brands got kind of stung by them, but I think we also did the whole industry, a lot of service, but also a bit of a disservice because every now and again, I think they pop up. And Sniper Brandoff being like, we're still here and we're still in charge. Yeah. Yeah. We still got, you don't, we're not gone anywhere. Yeah, So I, because wasn't the original gamma. It was the Gamma man. Right. And then the, then it became with the skull it was very Dan Dare, like action man. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was, it was very, yeah, I mean, it was very, it was, I mean, to be fair, it was very kids, uh, like commando, old comics sort of thing. Like it was, yeah, it was very much like that. And the skulls were like, Like, this is definitely more adult sort of thing, but it doesn't, it really, I don't think it changed the way, if, if kids were looking at it the way they thought kids were looking at it, and they weren't, because you don't underage drink like a six pound thirty, three thirty milliliter can of IPA, do you? the, uh, then, then, then I don't think either is really particularly got many legs to stand on, but maybe the skull's better, but, you know, I don't know. really funny that they're like yeah, oh, it's got okay. No, the school. Yeah, that's fine. Kids won't buy into that. Yeah. I That's the that's the line that they've drawn, but sometimes they probably just want their opinion to be heard. read my toddler, like funny bones, like every night for the last week or something. See, I've got a question for you because, there'll be people listening to this and, they'll be in charge of brand or have an input on brand like and something I quite curious about Especially now we talk about the skull era of beaver town where that's been quite consistent for a while It's like how do you keep things consistent without it getting old and how would you advise breweries to or brand? people to So I would say don't keep it consistent. Always be, always be building it and changing it. hmm real, really interesting process for me with, the, the, what, what we, what we were calling the second transaction with Heineken's when they fully bought, bought out the business is they have a system called like brand in a bottle, which is intended for a brand. That's a lot simpler than ours that like simpler in terms of like they have very. Simple brand iconography, Moretti, Amstel, you know, like things like that, that, where you can, you can condense it into some pieces of information. That means it can be sold all over the world by anyone, which, which is, which is essential. If you, if you are planning to basically send it worldwide with your distribution channels. And we, we obviously were just coming out of being, you know, a darling, a darling craft beer of the, of the movement. and into kind of like. a little bit kind of like alienated and ostracized by the community. but at the same time, we also had to think about a growth plan that involved kind of changing and the brand evolving and adapting as organically as he possibly could. So writing it down felt really destructive. It felt like you were just removing. If you defined it, it was gone almost straight away because for me, it had never been defined. So to answer your question, from a practical standpoint, the advice I would give is never feel like you've found this kind of settled. Notion of like the optimum of where you can be at because the world changes, flavors change, people change. You can have some, some very strong imagery and you can have some very strong concepts and you can even have just have a very strong word logo, but you have to remember as even massive brands find out you can't just sit on that, you know? And uh, I think that actually consistency is consistency is not necessarily as helpful as people think it is. It's easy, it's easy to process. but I think that doing things the hard way can be. The most beneficial thing and keeping things consistent is almost like just leaning into it being easy because you've done it and it's like it can be pushed over there, move on to something else. Whereas actually like, I think it's, it's about tweaking and evolving and working and just thinking like, okay, because you can have a really solid launch as a, as a really small brewery. and have really lovely branding and you can either go super simple or you can go like really in depth and bright and vibrant and illustrative and a lot of breweries do both these days, like individually, both, but those things are only as, only as good as how much people remember them. And if you're keeping people excited and entertained, I mean, the, the, I feel like the secret, the secret source to the Beavertown branding is nothing's ever like a simple beginning, middle and end story in an artwork. So that people aren't going, Oh yeah, I totally get it. And then you stop thinking about it. You hopefully want people to be like. It's interesting. I kind of didn't understand why they'd done this, but I liked it. Mm And then they asked their friends about it. And then they kind of talk about it. And the, some of the nicest feedback that we've got through kind of like friends of friends, or just like general is like, you know, I always feel really cool with the can of Gamma Ray in my hand, or like, if I'm at a house party, someone will talk to me about that. And it's, but that's the sort of thing that keeps people interested. It's, that's really interesting How do you think commercial goals sort of sit in within the brand? So Do you think well, I guess that you never had this is the type of drinker that I want to be drinking these beers So I'm gonna design things around that because that's am I right in thinking it comes from you all of this. So it's, it's definitely like, it definitely, There's definitely been a, before, the before times were very much like, like, screw your feedback. I think this bear's gonna look like this, so it's gonna look like this. when I've tried to do that with, with a, when it, when there's, basically as more people have joined Beavertown as professionals in their field, you just can't do that. Right, so like, you, you, you can try, and you'll piss people off. But like, it's, and you, but eventually you'll get strong armed into something. and they're not the concessions of like values. They're just concessions of like, yeah, but like, you're not going to sell any of this beer if people are confused about what it is or like, that's, that's so obscure of a reference to the thing that you're just going to turn people off of it. So it's, so commercially, uh, it's, I hope that makes sense, but it's more like, when you, now, when we have products, it's like, there's got to be at least. I mean, I think the most, the best example I could give you is our most recent Admin Calendar beers. So they've all got some real flavour to them, there's like a cola bottle y one. So I, so I drew like a kind of skull polar bear on it to kind of make fun of the the Coca Cola. But he's got like a, a bottle, like a, obviously a cola bottle but it's in like a brown paper bag. Right. So, so you can't see it like, you know, if you're drinking and yeah, like, but, but yeah, there's like, that's something where I would have been like, okay, you need to have some sort of impetus, but those bears are fun because they don't make as much of an impact because no, I don't think anybody's going to buy that again, necessarily. They might be like, wow, that's the best I've ever had. I need to get as much of that as possible. The longevity of our kind of core range comes from people being able to see it, recognize it, gravitate towards it and understand what it is that they're buying. So that's, that's the impetus that is like, if there's a new thing that needs to do that, how are we going to maintain what those already do? hmm. And then I don't, I mean, I think, I feel like I might be about to answer a question that you're about to ask, but something that's really big for me is consumer insight. So when you get feedback or testing or, or like when you use focus groups, you, you need to. Make sure that that information is contextualized and it can drive me nuts hearing it played back to me like we need to make all these changes because Like James from Milton Keynes says that he doesn't like skulls. So we need to remove all skulls and Sharon from Kingston is a really big fan of flowers and she doesn't feel like there's enough flowers on our beers so we need to do that and actually like it's that's like you need to there needs to be a few layers between those people and Then what you end up doing So the feedback from, even if it's not from focus groups, even it's from like friends or you've like, you, you, yeah, like anybody, you need to always like, just take a step back and work it out. And I think it's why it feeds into why I think like. as helpful and wonderful as social media more used to be before everybody had to just leave Twitter. it's, it's, it, you need to contextualize that too. You know, that's, that's a, that's a really great feedback method and you need to contextualize it both ways. Like am I in a bit of a bubble here of people just like loving what I'm doing and constantly saying it's great and one day they'll just move on or am I actually, Worrying too much about the negative feedback. And should I be just doing what I think is right? Because you can, you need to involve a lot of gut feel in, in branding. I picked up that you were like before, I just used the term back in the day because I hate it, but back in the day you were much more, no, I'm kind of going to do it this way because this is what I believe is right, and now maybe that's changed into more absorbing some consumer insights. Is that fair to Definitely. Yeah. Cause we, yeah, because we, without really, without really intentionally doing it or realizing that we had like an army of mobilized people who've just believed and, and, and just like. literally lapped up what was happening because they were like, every time Beavertown released a beer, it looks so cool and it tastes so good. And it's always so interesting. And they've worked with some American brewery or they've collabed with another English brewery we love or a British like anywhere, like anywhere, a European brewery, a brewery basically. and w and, uh, or, or it was just like a crazy, crazy brew. I mean, we didn't do that many of the kind of mental. you know, dump a load of marshmallow into it, it's bruised, because I think that we actually, we actually still have quite a stubborn brew team who, you know, even when we do the, the uh, neck oil with the glitter in it. I like, uh, every year because it's that, it's that, seaweed, it's not, not glitter. which is funny when people are like, how could you just put glitter in there? It's like, no, it's, but yeah, but there's, you know, there's that element where it's like, we used to be making IPAs, Yeah, just nice and easy, refreshing IPAs. you have to have so many, there's so many voices in the room. Right. It's, it's very much a case of like, uh, yeah, it's very much like a case of like actually listening to the voices, but contextualizing the voices now and not just saying, you know, the, the legacy was impressed people with both branding and beer. I think it was, we used to say like, if it, if it looks great, but it tastes shit, you'll remember it tastes shit. You won't remember it tastes good. I mean, look good. So yeah, that was it. And now, and now it's different. So, do you think this is a classic, like production mind asking creative, but do you think there's a right and a wrong way of doing it, do you feel like you couldn't have done the first part with loads of consumer insights? Cause it would have kind of maybe, you know, Not been one that had your creative freedom, so to speak, that you had, or do you think that actually with all those consumer insights, it would have been a better journey, so to speak. so I think, I think you can very much kind of like bounce along the bottom by emulating what other people are doing. Thank you. Okay. I genuinely believe that. And if you're happy to do that, then all power to you. Like, it's, it's fine. I don't have a whole lot of respect for the method, but like, you know, that's what you want to do. So I think that would be the wrong est way, but maybe there's not a, I mean, the wrong way you'll find really quickly, right? You'll, you'll, you'll be like, my dog's called, my, my, my dog, my beer is called like dog shit beer. And it's like, and it's covered in swear words or like, you know, I don't know, like, and the people will be like, but then there's like, also like try like the emulation thing can, it can ramp up a bit for you and you can end up like doing it right. So there's kind of a mix of like I was saying gut feel. it's, it's so hard. To answer that question nowadays because like if I'd given people advice when we were on the way up I would say all these things that we were doing that people probably could do that would be exciting for people But you you couldn't you just couldn't replicate it and not because of the appetite It's just like that. We were a part of the this is how I learned what zeitgeist means It's basically how we were part of the zeitgeist The beer zeitgeist, exactly the right place, exact right time, doing the exact right thing to really excite people. And now if you were to start a brewery, I don't know, based on, based on what we did, based on having, based on having an in house designer who does everything and a really strong ideology around what beers you want to make, you'll be making amazing beers that look beautiful. You might not have the success because it's not, it's just not the, it's just, it's moved. Everything's kind of shifted. It's. It's like Abe Simpson in The Simpsons when he's like, I used to know what it was, and then they changed what it was. It'll happen to you. but yeah, and it does, and it makes me feel incredibly lucky, firstly, but, yeah, I think the right, the right, the right way to do things is, is honestly to think generally about what seems to be something that people would like and tap into it. So it's not, so it's having like a gut feel and it's quite vague, but like, it's like having a gut feel, having a bit of heart in what you're doing. But also not just being like, I love this, so I'm gonna do this. It's more like, do you think people would like that? And then get some feedback from that and just kind of work on that. But I think it's, there's some really good examples of breweries doing that. I it's really interesting. You say. The the zeitgeist thing and I think you said it maybe just before we I hit record but It's like if you were to follow through everything you did step by step Right now it wouldn't create the same success as it did and it's kind of finding out what that wave is now that you would have to that you'd have to Jump on almost it will be a part of not jump on is probably the wrong terminology But be a part of that wave to go up I never, I really, I really never ever until recently thought I would be the like, Oh, kids these days guy, but like kids are weird. It's like, you know, there's like this idea of like, even being a little bit tipsy is like, Oh, don't do that. It's like, you know, and like, and, and, and like pub, pub culture was like, even when we were kids, it was like a thing, right? Like, you know, mom and dad were like, there you go, there's your beer, but it's not yours if they ask. It's like, you know, it's, uh, and like, yeah, like enormous. And it's just like that, you know, there's a big piece at Beavertown right now about like, well, how do we, how do we engage with that? We kind of have to, in a way, like you have to think about it. No one knows like that. They're huge. They're, they're really making an impact. but at the same time, there's still. There's still kids that drink, right? Like I know, I know, like, I mean, the kids I'm talking about, like, you know, 20 year olds, yeah, in on my podcast soon. Ha ha Um, but like, but yeah, I mean like this, there's still, there are, there's still generations like down and down and down that are still kind of like into bitter and stuff, you know, it's not that those people get, those people fall through the gaps and I think they're an interesting bunch of people that you can still market to and still do a good job with, but the big data stuff is, yeah, is, is, is interesting and, and it's, and it just, it just makes me feel so old. You know, it's just like, I'm not sure I want, I don't want like a vape, a vape flavoured, uh, soda. That, uh, HCVD in it or something, I don't know, I just, That's what it's turning into though, quickly, I can see it already. You know, enough Consumer Reports, I mean, there's a lot going, talking about Gen Z or Gen Z whatever, and not drinking, and it's kind of like something we all want to ignore, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I do, you know. 30, they're like, Oh God, this is, what have we, we've been missing out on this our whole lives? Yes. so we've still got Sam Miller who, you know, he's, he's kind of, he's kind of in charge of a lot of these insights and creating like, new product development, like trials and things like that. And he, he's the sort of person that's be like, you've got to stop ignoring this. Cause I'm there going, nope. And he's like, They will drink at some point. It will be okay. Yeah. It's a big thing for craft brewers, actually, it's something where, you know, everyone's concerned about margins at the moment But in 15, 20 years time, who's drinking is really the good question. And how much are they doing it? I don't think for one second, it's going to go away, brings back. Industry's been around for 5, 000 years and it's going to be around for another 5, 000. I have no doubt about that But it's quite an interesting It's probably one of the biggest shifts in drinkers in a long time because you're absolutely right growing up pub was the pub was Where social interactions happened? From quite a young age, you know, you would always go down the pub parents were meeting at pubs You kind of just grow up in them and it doesn't feel like that's happening anymore, which is, it's going to have that effect later on. thinking about like the wider brewing industry, Nick, like, do you think there's brews who get branding really right outside of Beaver Town? And, have you got, can you, share those examples and why you like them? it's, it's really hard. I think, and I don't mean that from like, there aren't the, just like, I, my like brand love comes from the outside of beer. Cause I think it's a really important, I think. Yeah. Cause I think like you, Like, to stay on, to stay on top of it, not becoming too much like the kind of middle ground. I always kind of don't, and absolutely there are, but it just, I'm just going to say like my friend's breweries. If I, if I start reeling off breweries who like, who get the branding right. but you know, like when we were, when we were, when we were coming up with other breweries, it was like, it was McKellar, it was, Omnipoyo. it was like, Oh, what are they called? The American, the American brewery. It'll Trillium. Uh, yeah, it's really, and they're all still people that I talk, talk to a fair amount, you know, still water as well. well, I kind of really are art led and like, heh to people like that, like they're big breweries, but, I think I'm, I'm like one of the luckier ones out of those, out of that kind of group to still be doing this sort of thing. Like a lot of them are still doing artwork, but it's not for breweries. and it's harder when you're just doing artworks like to promote your own art. Like it's so much easier to just be kind of slapping it on thousands of people. Thousands and thousands and thousands of cans that just go into puffs. but yeah, I think that there are, yeah, there are breweries, there are definitely breweries, like new breweries to get it right. And I think a lot of them look at inspiration from the right place. So like, and obviously like seriously bias plug, but James Rylance has ideal day, right. Beards are phenomenal. He's very much along the lines of the kernel ethos of like, everything is quite similar and familiar. And it's, and it's great to do it that way. Cause it's like, you know. But it's coming from, like the whole message is like a familiar message and a familiar beer and both are really lovely. The concept of having like a family brewery is just like, just a lovely thing to do, especially if you're actually doing it, you know, like you could be like, we're a family brewery, and it's like a bunch of like old dudes, like, but no, full family, all four of them doing it, yeah. James, Otis, and Owen. That's so cool. And so what sort of brands outside of the brewing industry do you, do inspire you? just because it's like, thinking about how you can be so successful and so big and be so like, memorable. They're not particularly, like niche or, or like, exciting. So you've got like Nike, for example, who like, somehow kind of maintain this element of like, very cool. Even though they are what they are. And they do it not through the design, but through kind of activations and the kind of like more markety speak stuff that they do is really cool. But still, like, I mean, I wear Nike shoes, so it's like, it's like that, that sort of thing. there's a few, I think I don't, I don't, I don't love everything that they do, but I think that it's interesting that liquid death have had the success that they've had, because I think it's really, I think it's a really strange model. And I think that it's really funny. And I think that it's, I think the design is awesome. and I think that the concept is great. And I think that they like, they're just really, to me, they're like interesting in a very positive way. not something that I would like recommend emulating, but like, it's, I think that just like, that's not, I know. So it's hard not to like, be like, don't do it. Like, but I genuinely, I just think that it's confusing to me. I wouldn't. Personally be like doing exactly that. It's like, yeah, it's, I think they're, they're a cool, they're a cool brand, but like, it's, it's, they're doing the right thing. I mean, they're getting it, they seem to be getting it right. If you don't drink, they just, they pop up everywhere, right? Like we have this, we have this conversation about how would you get your beers in the hands of bands like Redding and Glastonbury and stuff when actually bands intentionally have cans of Stella and Carling and stuff like, because they're like, We don't, we don't, we don't mess with that muck is this is the, this is our stuff. And how'd you do that? And how'd you do that in a cool way? And there are some, some brands that managed to kind of get in there. Yeah, that's, they're, they're one of those bands. They're one of those brands, right? They're almost the way that I would say that like a lot of our stuff is too conceptual or looks a little bit too pretentious is like, is it's a problem, but I, but it's because I always want things to be a bit more interesting. So that finding a balance is. I had a question actually when we're, when you were just talking then, especially in liquid death kind of sparked it. I've listened to a podcast with the founder and the backstory of it, and it's so interesting, but for the successful brands that we're talking about, do you think that it's important that the brand, the branding is kind of an extension of that personality, or do you think it's something that You can emulate. I think it's great when it does come from an extension of personality and I think that like Beavertown genuinely comes from mainly Logan's personality and like then mine becoming more and more of like kind of mix and then I mean I'm so like I find it so hard to think about leaving or untangling myself from Beavertown it's kind of like tricky but I mean if you want if you want to be like ironclad yes you do actually if you want to be I if you want if you can't if you want to stand up to every bit of scrutiny that gets thrown at you. You can't just be like, well, they were doing it, you know, like, cause it's, it's going to fall flat. And I mean, I find, I just, I really love Madri. As like, uh, as just what they did and like, what, and, and just like, just, uh, the biggest bold face lie that was so easy to track down, but because it was so cheap, it didn't matter that nobody gives a shit. Like it is that they're drinking a cheap, they're drinking a cheap European lager mate and then Burton on Trent. Right. Oh yeah. Like, yeah. And, and actually I was, I had never, I never once was like those fuckers. I was just like, That is, that's just amazing. Like you've, you've spent, you spent more money than you're going to get back on this to begin with, at least like a lot, like just to advertise this kind of like, I think they even had like a story of like Spanish brothers or something that was like, that went along with it. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's actually, it's actually incredible. Adam Buxton did like a joke, I think on his podcast about like, he's saying if you don't want something that has the superciliousness of neko, which is how I learned what supercilious means. Great word. I can't remember what it means, but I did learn. Uh, yeah. straight over my head, but yep. or the seriousness of something else. Then you go for imagery, but it was based on a lie. Kind of, it's very serious, kind of like bit bits. Yeah, I just, I think that's, I think it's amazing because like, that, that's where money talks, right? That's where the money, that's where you've, you've just, you've gone completely over the top of all of that kind of having a proper backstory and having faith in what you're doing. And you just, you just put money into it, but you can only do that if you are a B and B like you just, or SAB or whoever, but like, yeah, it's that, but so like, so to go back to the question, yeah, I think that like, if you, as a brand at least, like you, you have to have something and it's, and it's, It's why it's a little bit, I don't know how I like to give people a lot of the benefit of the doubt that most people are quite savvy because when you see the like Instagram adverts. It's like in 2012, my son came home from school with a backpack full of junk and we decided then that our jam was going to be 100 percent dog hair. Uh, like, it's like, oh man, like when you, when you see those and it's just like, I'm sure it's like really hard to obviously trace them back, but I'm just like, sure. Yeah. Authenticity, I feel like is one of the most important aspects. Well, we say that and then Madri's had the success, but I guess that's, which is the polar opposite of the word authenticity. but for for a startup brand, I feel like, especially like a challenger having like authenticity is really what people buy into and it's quite quick. That quickly gets unwound if it's not. it's natural. And it's been, it's always been natural in, in beer and craft beer and independent brewing, because like, actually you're not really coming into the market with a competitor. You're coming in to be a part of it, right? You're not coming in. Yeah. Like, you're not, you're not coming in to say like, I can have a bit of the Colonel's lunch. You're coming in to be like, we love what the Colonel do. We want to be a part of this. Yeah, you're like, you're not like, yeah, like, uh, like, you know, like, oh, I think cloudboards are shit. I want to take them down. It's like, no, we also, we also wanted to have, we wanted to try making, we have a passion for making big, strong IPAs. So we had a passion for making kind of like old school recipes or we had a passion for making, you know, this and the other. And actually like we've seen what they can do and you know, it's like, yeah, it's just, it's not, it's not coming from that place. And then I'm obviously learning way more and more. Being, being a part of a company that's owned by a massive corporate entity that actually like, there's a, there's a balance to be found. And also you also enter that space and you all of a sudden can't do things because it's like, well, you're not going to be able to compete with things like that. So you can't do it as opposed to like, well, we can try, you know, like, Yeah. We can try and map. No, no, no, no. No, you actually can't. That's really funny. So Nick, what are the three most important things for a brewery's branding? So I think number one is start off. By accepting that you're going to change it. So if, especially if it's coming from the, like the closest place to your heart and the, the place that an idea that you're like, this is a very personal idea to me, or like it's a story or a family or a memory or anything like that. Even if it starts off like that, you can keep that in it, but the visual identity is almost definitely going to change from the first iteration of the visual version of what you make. Like we, that's what happened with BeReturned. It's probably the best thing that could happen. I mean, my version was version 3. If, there's probably, there's probably like version 7 or 8, but like version 3. I'd call it, and then it was a continuation based on one version that was paid a lot of money for. That you were then able to be like, actually, this is shit. I want to change it completely. Another version that is really, really brilliant, but actually you realize that it needs to be adapted into something else because out of necessity, but you can still have the heart and soul and impetus in it because we, we created a connection through common, common things we liked. number two is contextualized feedback. so like just when you're asking for feedback, remember who you're asking. I don't mean just who are you sort of thing. It's like, what about them is making them feel the way they're feeling. Cause they, if somebody really doesn't like something, there might be a reason other than your product's bad. Or they don't like your, their visuals. Like you have to, and not always, but, Most of the time, at least be a little bit aware of that, because if you start kind of taking hard right turns or left turns based on small amounts of feedback, it's a recipe for just chipping away at the soul of what you're doing, because you need to maintain a little bit of a gut feel to the, to the thing that you're doing. okay, so number three, most important thing is just have fun. Um, no, you, you have to be enjoying, you have to be enjoying it. You have to be enjoying the fact that there is, there's feelings about what you're doing right now. You have to be kind of enjoying that there'll be people who really don't like it, whatever it is, it can be the most like wholesome thing in the world. There'll be people who are like, that's a load of shit. There'll be people that actively are out to get you because they know that what you're doing is good. and you, you just have to kind of roll with that every time you do it. And that's just a life, a life lesson, but, but in branding, it's especially prevalent. And I spent so many years thinking about the people that didn't like what I was doing. And how do I bring them on board as opposed to like, this is great. This is just human. The human reality is that like, if we all agreed with each other, it'd be very boring. So enjoy, enjoy the good with the bad when it comes to especially creating a brand. I think that was some of the funnest things ever. We're having people take a, take a shot, take a shot at what we were doing in person at events. You know, doing a talk with Logan and somebody's there going, Yeah, but it's all a bit childish, isn't it? And just being able to be like, Yeah, kind of. Yeah, yeah sure But three. Really good, man. I, I really like, the have fun is important because it's creativity, right? that's where creativity comes from is having fun or feelings and emotions. Nick, I also, wanted to ask if there's fans of your artwork, listen to this shows, What else do you do outside of Beavertown art wise? Haha, time, mostly just like, mostly just drawing with my son. He, he demands, he demands skulls, planets, and rocket ships pretty regularly now. He actually goes, uh, data, draw skulls and planets when I'm off to work, it's like, I'm like, yeah, pretty much man. Like, you nailed it. Like, but I, yeah, I mean like the, I mean the, but I mean, I, I, I see myself doing kids books, at some point, I mean, I've, I've done some for my son, which I kind of just for my wife and son, but like. That's the sort of thing, but yeah, the artwork, I'd like, I mean, I'm, I'm going to put myself out there a bit more, I think, moving from like quite more from like now, maybe do some commission work and be more open to like people cause I like, I get, get weirdly shy now, like on social media, I don't really like posting much of what I'm up to. I think just cause it doesn't feel like a necessity, like it's all, Yeah. Haha. do more and respond to more things and not just ignore my, like, folder of messages on, Instagram of like, you know, that if you don't, if they don't know, you don't know them, it just goes into a different folder and I'm like, I'll deal with that tomorrow for like months. it'd be cool to one day, you know, be able to push, promote those things for you. Thank you. to, to the people, cause, I'll need it. I'll need it man. It's not gonna, it's not gonna be on beer cans anymore, is it? So it's just like you have to really fight for it. well I've actually got one of your, one of your drawings up there and I have another one of the original Bones artwork that's tucked away very safely. That one means a lot to me as well, so yeah, thanks a lot for those. Yeah, well, thanks for having me, man. And thanks for being, thanks for being a part of Beavertown and my like journey in all those years. It was, you know, yeah man, it was the fun, it was definitely an incredibly fun time to be alive. Uh, dramatic at some points but also very fun. hell yeah. yeah, We were saying at the start, it's a community feel to not just like internally the team, but like community to everyone around was, was, just, yeah, something I don't think I'll ever really be able to get that. Not that I ever should chase it, but I don't think I'll ever really get that feeling again of like, you know, the taproom Saturdays were just wild. It was freezing cold, people were just outside, no one was complaining about that, the queue was huge, the tap room was like, honestly, the size of, what, like two double The British, the British, the British press, genuinely, there's a, there's a shot from our tap room of like, it's raining more than it's ever rained. And they're sitting at one of those tables. They could be sitting inside with just one umbrella between them, leant over the table with like it pouring down the sides of it. And every time there's an article about how hard it's raining, they use that picture of our tap room. That's great, that's great. And what, you know, what was so funny about it is, it was literally, A car park and a industrial estate in Tottenham Hale. Like it couldn't have been much of an uglier No, absolutely. No, that's it. nothing. Like I remember taking my sister and her partner and a couple of their friends there and they were like, this is the coolest place. And I was like, it really isn't, but it actually is all at the same time. And that's like the term time. It was really fun, man. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Big stinking malt trailer. You Oh my God. With it, with just the like, uh, the like, my out of the starchy syrupy ness pouring out the back into the drain. Like, yeah. Ugh. Oh, that's so gross. We used to collect that and then like, dispose of it. It was, oh my god, it was the worst job. Those were the good times, eh? I never had to do it. So like, don't You didn't have to do it. Yeah, we had to do it. It was so bad. Hey, look, Nitman, thank you so much for coming on. I know you're such a busy guy but your wealth of experience and something quite unique for this podcast, you know, so production focused, I think it's really good to spark people's creativity and, uh, take people down a different path of the brewing world than just, production, So thank you so much, man. I really, really appreciate it. You're welcome, Chris. Anytime, man. And, uh, once this is done, we're gonna go to the pub anyway, Yep. It's such a fake goodbye. Yeah, on that you in a minute. this down and instantly go out and get a beer. Alright, dude. See you soon. What a guy Nick Dwyer is. I really love how positive, honest, and fun he is. I mean, the journey that he's been through is so unique. It's so cool for me to hear it. I hope that everyone listening to the podcast enjoyed it as well. So the next episode is, as I said, right at the start, it's going to be slightly different. It's going to be a much shorter episode, but just me talking, going through the highlights of the last year of the Modern Brewer podcast. The best takeaways that I've taken, the feedback that I've gotten. That I've heard and also going to do some predictions maybe for what 2025 is going to look like both For the Modern Brew podcast and what I generally think in the brewing industry as well So stay tuned for that If you enjoyed this episode or you feel like someone, you know would benefit from listening to to Nick Dwyer Speak about branding. Please do share the podcast around. It really does mean a lot to me and Getting new listeners is essential to keep the show progressing and going on. So thank you so much to everyone for listening, and I will catch you on the next episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast.