Ep 39 - Southwold Square Fermenters™️ at Adnams – Fergus and Dan

Ever wondered what it’s like to brew at one of the countries most historic and respected breweries? Or have you ever wondered what it would be like to manage a dual yeast strain?

In this fun but insight-packed episode, I sit down with Fergus Fitzgerald & Dan Gooderham from Adnams to talk about their truly unique brewing approach, the quirks of square fermenters and the art of managing a dual yeast strain. 

Expect great stories, funny anecdotes and plenty of knowledge bombs as we dive into:
🧙 Southwold Square Fermenters
🍺 The magic of managing a dual yeast strain
🇩🇪 A cracking Bitburger story that had me saying ‘get out’ 
🌿 The ongoing battle for consistency in brewing
💡 Why some of the best brewing innovations come from the most unexpected places

This was one of the most fun episodes I’ve recorded, Fergus and Dan are legends of the brewing scene and are exactly the sort of people you want to go for a beer with. 

Chapters:
00:00 Introduction and Apologies
00:36 Vancouver Beer Scene and Future Collaborations
01:13 Craft Beer Sustainability Report 2024
02:54 Introducing Adnams Brewery
03:35 Adnams' Historic Brewing Equipment
05:30 Modern Brewing Innovations
05:32 Meet Fergus and Dan
07:25 Evolution of Adnams' Brewing Process
16:59 Square Fermenters and Yeast Management
47:29 Challenges of Consistency in Brewing
48:22 Natural Ingredients and Brewing
50:59 Yeast Strains and Health
52:32 Belgian Style Beers
55:14 Dry Hopping Challenges
01:04:38 Yeast Harvesting Techniques
01:11:13 Brewing Heritage and Modern Relevance
01:19:27 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Thank you so much to our amazing sponsor AEB, the go to for your Bio-Tech needs - https://www.aeb-group.com/uk/beer 

🔗 Craft beer report - https://www.brewresourceful.com/craftbrewerysustainability2024

🔗 Adnams Contract Brewing - fergus.fitzgerald@adnams.co.uk

Transcript

0:13

Hello everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast with me, your host, Chris Luton. It's been a few extra weeks since my last episode. And for the regular listeners, I really do apologize. I've actually been away on holiday to Canada visiting some friends, which was a real blast. Uh, I must admit. It was really fun. But for the purpose of this podcast, I actually also got to tour the Vancouver beer scene, which is, let me tell you, outstanding. I actually also bumped into some other brewing podcast. People from Vancouver, they read a podcast called Why This Beer? And we ended up going around a bunch of breweries together and I think we're gonna record some sort of cool crossover episode shortly. So, uh, I'm actually gonna look forward to that quite a lot. Uh, kind of a nice way of business and pleasure on holiday. Uh, always fun when you're including beer, right? Aside from that, for those who follow me on LinkedIn. You may have seen that I recently released my craft beer sustainability report for 2024, and this year I completely revamped how I wrote the report. The report still contains all the trend data for the benchmarking reports I fill out for breweries all across the UK and Europe. It still offers the only kind of sustainability insight like this in the whole of Europe, which is something I'm still really, really proud of. the metrics I report on are always the same brew house efficiency, water, electric and gas intensity, and also purchase CO2 intensity. But I also decided this year to make it more actionable for brewers and business owners. So I included over 15 strategic decisions that a business owner can make over 21 actionable changes for brewers, and I referenced over 15 further learning resources. So if you'd like to get a copy of the report, please check out the show notes where I've placed a link in there for those who have already commented on my post and received the report. Thank you so much and thank you for your patience. I decided for reasons that I'm absolutely not too sure on now to release this report via LinkedIn. The day before I flew to Canada, uh, and the post kicked off, I was literally on the plane as it was taking off DMing people the link to the report, um, which was an incredibly restful start to the holiday. So, yeah, thank you to anyone who had the patience. Sometimes it took me a few hours to get those arsal flying in different time zones, et cetera. So I do really appreciate your patience. but now let's talk about this episode. I have long been friends with Fergus and Dan, who run one of the most historic and to me important breweries in the UK brewing scene. Adnams located in the heart of the East coast, seaside, town of South World. Adnams is truly a part of the community. If you ever get the privilege of going there, it's one of the most historic breweries that's literally located in the center of the town with views of the sea and pipes that run under the road from building to building. It really reminds you of those like European breweries that are just been there for so long. They've become, the town has grown around them. It's so cool. Uh, like seriously, what a place. Uh, in this episode we are gonna be talking a lot about the history of Adnams, their unique Southward Square fermentors, their even more unique dual yeas strain that defines the Adnams beer taste, and some amazing anecdotes about that ironclad mash turn that was so pitted it needed to be cleaned by hand. In between each p. But just before we do, I want to take a moment to talk about yeast fermentation and the science behind making better beer. Today we're diving into a EB, A company that's been pushing brewing innovation for over 60 years. A EB started in wine making but has become a leader in brewing solutions, working with breweries worldwide to enhance your yeast selection better, your fermentations, and increase your process efficiency. Whether it's a crisp lager, a hazy New England IPA, or even a non alk, they've got yeast strains and fermentation tools designed to enhance flavor, improve consistency, and reduce brewing costs. Brewers like Northern Monk, pigeon Hill Brewing and Nils Oscar Brewery have collaborated with a EB on brewing projects from yeast selection to filtration and stability. Their FOMO Brew Range is tackling low and no alcohol beers, bringing in citrus and tropical notes where traditional strains fall flat. And if you're struggling with hazel stability, a B'S clarification and filtration solutions help keep your beer looking and tasting its best without compromising phone retention or aroma. From yeast nutrients to process optimization. A EB is bringing science into the brew house in ways that make beer better and brewing smarter. Want to learn more? Visit a B'S website. The link is in my show notes. Right. Okay, let's get going. Welcome to the show, Fergus Fitzgerald and Dan Gooderham. Hello, Chris? Hello. Guys, I haven't seen you in a, in a bit of time, eh, I know. We, we've worked a lot together over, over the last few years and I still get to come down to Sunny Southold sometimes, Yeah, nice to see you again. And for the people watching YouTube, they can actually see us talking for once rather than just hearing. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Is it Chris? Yeah, that's true actually. Yeah, maybe not. Um, I am speaking from my. um, so look guys, for the people who dunno, you, who are listening to this, um, maybe we can just start off a few intros, kind of you are, uh, what you do, sorry, and, uh, who you, you're and how you got into the industry. Who, what is your why? That's the, yeah, let's kicks. Uh, so I'm production director at Adnams. So I look after the, the sort of the, the wider sort of brewing distillery, uh, the supply chain logistics, all, all the, all the sort of, um, the, yeah, getting, getting it to people. Um, and I joined Adnams sort of, uh, about 20 years ago, um, as sort of assistant brewer or was shortened into ASPR at the time. Um, but that was the, the, the acronym. Um, so I joined from full where I spent seven years. Um, and then I joined Adams, uh, and was head brewer. Then from about 2008, uh, till a till, Dan took it over. Yeah, so I've been with Adnams 14 years. Um, pretty much really only worked at, uh, Adnams. That's where I've cut my mustard. Um, still very young. Not as, not as young as Chris. Yeah. But yeah, I did Harriet what, um, did work at fillers for a short time in the lab there. But, um, yeah, been here really here, um, for, for the most part. So, How is, um, out of interest, how much has ABMS changed over the, the time that you, you've both been there? uh, well for me it's, it's changed completely, really. Uh, so when I joined it was, uh, it was a Victorian brewhouse, and, and that's just not, that's not a metaphor. It was actually Victorian equipment, you know, it was, it was cast iron mastons. It was coppers. Uh, it was coppers with very little copper left 'cause they'd been used so often and, and, and you sort of joke about it, but it was being held together by the wooden cladding on the outside. Um, and when, and we know that 'cause when we stripped it away, a lot of the copper fell away as well. Um, and the cast iron mashed tons had had, you know, had flakes of cast iron coming off every brew Really. Um, so there was a, it, it, yeah, it was really difficult to sort of work with.'cause after, after every second brew we had to do a full CIP on the mash term because, because it was so pitted the, um, the, the uh, the sort of, uh, the micro bial flora, uh, enjoyed it to moel. So by the second brew it was just a mess. So you have to do a full CCIP every, every second brew. So it was at, at, at a stage where it had to be replaced really. Um, so yeah, so going from that sort of brew, that's where it was very manual, very Victorian, uh, to, to a and, and you've been up, obviously it's a relatively state of the art sort, the brew house now. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a cast iron Ashton. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and they were, and they were, they were undersized. So we had to mash in over the spare germs, uh, just, you know, they were sort of two ton and three ton, and you had to mash both of them in over the spare germs to get, to get a, a sort of a decent sized brew out of them, and then run off until, until they dropped below the spare germs to, to be able to disparage it. Uh, so yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun, but not always great fun. Were you still sweetening the beer with lead acetate? No, no, no. Moved. We had moved on, um, and, and it was all, so the fermentation side was a sort of hodgepodge of different fermentation vessels. Um, mostly open vessels, but some rounds, some square, uh, some plastic, some uh, some, some stainless, um, or, you know, lots of different sizes. Lots of different shapes. Yeah. Uh, it was, it'd always been put together, um, over a period of time. And it, and, you know, as lots of breweries do, you sort of grab what's on the market at the time. So that's what the previous brewers, the previous engineering managers had to do. They had to go and find the, the, the cheapest vessel they could find to fit in that space. Um, and that just gives you a lot of, a lot of inconsistency. Um, so all the, all the big, uh, sort of round from vessels had to be cleaned out by hand. So yeah, lot, lots of, lots of, um, manuals, scrubbing. That's mental. It was normal, Chris. That's, how long ago was, that? Wasn't even that, how long ago Oh, last year? Yeah. No. Uh, so that, so we, so I joined in 2004 and the new, the new brewhouse went in in 2007. So sort of between that time the sort of, we were running on the old rehears and the, the fermenters we had started to change the, into sort of more modern squares, um, from about 2001. And that sort of finished in about 2005, 2006. So up until then, we were still using the sort of old fermenters as well. Hmm. So can you just talk us through the new brew house that you, you, Yeah, so new brewhouse went in, like I say, 2007 was sort of the official opening. Um, uh, so relatively red, well it's 2007 now, so it's not that new now, but it's still new in my head. Um, so even the, even the new brewers call it the new brewhouse, they don't even know the old one. Uh, so, uh, so, uh, uh, m conversion vessel, um, louton, uh, pre-run tank, uh, combined kettle whirlpool, uh, it's also got a, a wet conditioning mill. Um, and I guess when we first did that, they were all pretty weird things for a, for what was still seen as a very traditional brewery to put in, you know, moving away from traditional dry milling was, was, was seen as uh, sort of uh, sort of sacrosanct, really moving away from that. Um, and then having allowed to turn as well. And I know several head brewers of, of comparative breweries who thought that was, that was never gonna work. And it seems daft to say was never gonna work 'cause you think. Yeah. Well, why wouldn't it? But, but yeah, there was a lot of, a lot of conversation in the industry that actually, uh, you couldn't, you couldn't brew cas beer with a louton. Um, yeah. So it went, went, went, uh, sort of quite away, away from the old traditional sort of equipment, um, but didn't go quite as far as mash filters. I think that was still seen as a step too far, uh, particularly because we brewed so many different beers and not always in massive quantities that it seemed, seemed like it wouldn't work. And I know that sort of technology's moved on a lot since then, but certainly when we put that in, that was, that was never really seen as a, a sort of economical thing to do. Um, and then I guess the big, the big change was really the efficiency. So we put a lot of energy recovery on. So back in 2007, doing energy recovery from the, from the kettle, uh, just seemed like a, uh, an expense that you didn't need to do, but it also seemed like a, a worthwhile thing to do. Um, so, and I guess the, the, the comparison we always use is it's, it probably saves us about 30% of our gas usage per year by having that energy recovery than, than, than the old Victorian brewhouse. Um, obviously that is comparing a very inefficient Victorian brewhouse to a modern brewery. So that is unfair. But, uh, but it did, it does still save us a lot of money by doing that energy recovery. That's colossal percentage. Yeah. How did you find, there a big, like flavor difference? Because that is such a change in brewhouse. Like how was that, did you notice it and did you have to change anything? Uh, yeah. So I think initially, um, there was, there were flavor differences and some of it is to do with obviously how the yeast interacts with the work we're now producing off the new brew house. Um, and we'll talk a bit more about the yeast in a bit 'cause there was a bit more complexity around that. Uh, but yeah, initially the first brew tasted nothing like the, the beer we were trying to make. But like any sensible brewery, uh, you, you keep doing that until the point where you get close enough, um, before you tell anybody. And so by the time we toed anybody, we were running it for about six months, um, at, at a point where we had actually been selling the beer for about six months. So, um, yeah, I think the trial process was probably about three months until we got to a, a place where we thought the, the, the sort of flavor profile was close enough. Hmm. but you never really get close enough until you, until you've got that sort of. Daily brew sort of cycle where you're brewing every day and you're making changes every, you know, pretty frequently. So I think you can't, you can never get to that place without getting to the place where you're selling it as well.'cause you know, we're not gonna dump a hundred brews before, before we get to the perfect place. Uh, and also I think the reality is was that actually the, the new brew house was making the beers better. So even, it might, even though it might not have been exactly exact match initially for the beers we were producing before, most of the time those changes were better. The, the flavor profile was better than what it was. that's really interesting. Yeah, that's, that's, I mean,'cause I was thinking then, you know, when I've moved breweries and had to replicate this with similar brew kits, but not, you know, different but Yeah. not that big of a change. It was already a challenge. I was thinking like that is a, is a such a big change and so many flavor drivers in that old Victorian Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not, like I said, not always good flavors. You know, some of the AST Stringencies we used to get off the old, off the old brew house. Um, so some of the, some of the, some of those lovely cast iron flavors, uh, weren't, weren't always what we were looking for. Uh, and also some, I I think it's, it's true to say that there was much more variability in the old brew house than there is in the current house. Um, so you, so yeah, you, you, you can, you can go from a place where you sort of make one change. You know what's gonna happen. Uh, it wasn't the house that change could have made four or five different things happening because it was just. There were so many, there were so many things that were out of your control. So, you know, just simple, simple things like the mash turn temperature, that, that wasn't really wholly in our control.'cause we couldn't, we couldn't change the temperature when it was in the mash turn. So if it was a bit cold that day, then it, the temperature was a bit lower. Uh, and you were relying on people to allow for that in the, in the sort of strike temperatures. Uh, whereas in the new bras, obviously we take that inconsistency away. Um, and, and I guess the, the other bit we talk about a little bit is the, the timings of, of hop additions to the kettle that's, that's automated now so that we put them with hop dosing vessels and those hops go in. Usually, not always, but usually go in at the time we set them. Whereas on the old brew house, it was down to someone looking at their watch. Uh, and if they happened to be called away because the mom, the mom was on the phone or whatever, then maybe they went a little bit later, a bit early. I can't believe it's not bitter. Yeah. So, so, so those, those, it seems like a simple thing, but actually just having consistency of the hops going in at that time, every time takes away another variable that you don't have to worry about. Um, wasn't that, uh, what happened when you were commissioning the brewhouse? The hops didn't actually go in, sometimes the hops didn't go in at all. It, it struggled with some of the hop dosing levels that we were trying to put in. Uh, but we, yeah, but those, that's what ISS for is, is, is to iron out some of those problems. Some of those small creases that make No, in, by cop's not going in. I think there, Dan, wasn't he? He. They went all the way into the ferment. A single being added, call it. So good. So I think let's move on to the, uh, you know, the main thing was those square fermentors. I mean, I've seen them, um, I've called, I've, you know what, I was gonna call them south old square fermenters, but I dunno if that's any anyone's ever used before, or if I can now like, trademark that term for this podcast. Yeah, we can do that. Yeah. I don't think anyone else has that sort of vessel anyway. Do we have to, uh, if, do we have to defend the trademark? Uh, yeah. It be when we. So yeah, let's talk about those, those square fermenters that, you know, the history of them. I, everything, I think they're, they're really fascinating and, and like a real part of this country's kind of tra tradition in brewing. Yeah, so I, if I talk a bit of the history and then I'll then maybe talk about the sort of the, the operation of them really. Um, so I, I, you know, I think that the reality is open fermenters, square fermenters, were, were, were the easiest thing to brew in. And, and sort of that, that is where, you know, we, we imagine that sort of brewing would've started in open fermenters. Um, so it is just an extension of that really. But then I guess the drive, the drive for us was really maintaining the yeast that we currently have. And I know it's not always true, but. I think for our yeast, open fermentors really is, is the thing that works. Um, and putting 'em into conical, you get a very different, um, a very different sort of interaction, really. And that's primarily, I think because we have, um, sort of, we have a two strain yeast sort of culture here, um, which I don't sort of talked about, but that, that doesn't mean that we need to, we need to appease two ye strains. And I think that is always more complicated than just, just having a single culture where you, you know, you, you, you, you, you sort of, not always, it's not as simple as that. But if you, you know, you do make one change and one thing happens. Whereas I think once you have a, a sort of mixed culture, you make one change and 20 different things happen and you try, you've gotta try and work out which of those things are being caused by your change. Uh, because yeah, those yeast strains will react differently. So I think, and, and the sort of decision to move to sort of the new fermentors sort of came about, I say probably 19 9 99 ish, give or take. Um, and then we worked with Briggs in Burton, uh, to sort of develop those, those tanks, um, and. It's probably true that there are very, there's been very few new square fermenters put in, in, in that time. Um, and primarily that's because it is driven by the yeast. If you're, if you've got a single strain yeast, you're probably going conical. Even if you were square before, you're probably going conical. Um, whereas for us, I think because, because we knew our, our yeast had always been a problem. It had been a problem since we started using it in the 1930s, twenties, um, and it had gone through a series of, of sort of cleanups. Um, so I guess the history of the yeast is it ca it came from a brewery in, in Norris Morgans brewery. Um, and we used to just, you know, regularly get their yeast apparently. Um, and then they got bombed in the second World War, so then we had to become self-sufficient in that yeast. Um, so obviously then we had had to have yeast, propagations and, and sort of, and keep that yeast going ourselves. Um, and then they looked at it in the 1970s and on the back of having lots of fermentation problems. Uh, so they had lots of, uh, lots of inconsistencies, lots of under over fermented beer, uh, lots of beer that wasn't dropping bright, lots of micro infections. Um, so they looked at the yeast and decided that there was sort of four far, well, five different yeast strains in there. Uh, but this, it was sort of dominated by two, two particular yeast, uh, yeast strains, which we now called, uh, uh, Gildan One and three, or Class One and three very affectionate names, obviously. Um. So, so they cleaned it up to just have those two yeee strains.'cause I think they accounted for something like 80, 85% of the, of the subcultures that they were looking at. Um, so they cleaned it up to the both of those. Um, now individually, neither of those brewing strains are, are good brewing strains. One of them drops out too quickly and doesn't ferment properly. One of 'em doesn't drop out and over ferments, um, and, and produces a lot of sulfur along the way. Um, but together they colocate. Um, but you have to keep the sort of proportions sort of relatively even. Um, so I think there was, there was a lot of, a lot of fear of changing too much for fear of upsetting the yeast. Um, and I think we take a very, very much that if we have happy yeast, we have good beer, um, approach to, to brewing really. So that was really, you know, the sort of the, the background to trying to stay with open fermentation, um, without trying to offset the yeast because I think that that sort of yeast, um, character is intrinsic to what we think of as Adam's beer. Um, and we do brew with, with other yeast strains now, but. But that we still come back to that having a house character gives you, gives you a bit of soul, gives you a point of difference. Um, so we do a lot of, a lot of painful work about trying to keep that yeast going. Um, you had quite a interesting anecdote about Bit Burger and how that, I mean, we are not alone in that kind of respect, are we? No, there is. So we import bit. Um, and have done for sort of 30 years now, I think, um, from Germany. So they, they, they have this, um, they, they have their own yeast strain as well. It's a single strain, but it is, their own yeast strain. and the brewery used to be in B Berg itself. Um, and then they decided they needed to, ex needed to expand. Um, but they, they didn't have enough space on site. So everyone then looks outside of town. But, so they put the brewhouse outside of town, but they were so fearful of upsetting their yeast. They kept the fermentation in town. So they, they piped, way. it was like a three mile pipe run from, from Bitburg to out to where the new site is. So they brew it in, in the new site, pump the work back to bitburg, ferment it there, and then pump it back out three miles to where the packaging hole was. Get out. And they did that for, I think they said something like 10, five to 10 years. Can't remember exactly. Uh, until, until they were confident they could get the same flavor characteristic in the, in the fermentation vessels in the new perhaps. So, so we're not alone in being very careful with our yeast because it, we, we do think it adds something extra. And for, for the same reasons Bitburg did it. We think it adds a character that we are, that we, we want to preserve and we wanna showcase. We're just yeast farmers really. We are yeast farmers. It's, which I find, I think that's the fascinating thing about brewing, isn't it? I mean, um, I'm. I'm sure the wine industry internally do talk about yeast, but um, you don't hear about it as much do you? It No. Comparatively to sort of brewing and, yeah. That's, we're ultimately yeast farmers and we have to keep the yeast going. Yeah, That is an absolutely fascinating story, by the way. That is, uh, pi piping it three miles to a three miles back. yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean that is, that is serious commitment to like not wanting to disrupt your yeast. That is, that is mad. Yeah. That's so cool. I mean, let's go, I mean, yeah, let's talk about those square mentors. You said that you've got new ones in, you say the 1990s, right? Uh, so late 1990s, we were sort of in a, in a sort of big growth phase, uh, so we needed more fermentation capacity. So I think the first ones went in before I joined, so about 2001, the first ones went in, uh, and sort of went in in three phases. So 2001, 2003, and I think 2005 six were the last, the last to go in. Um, so yeah. So I, Dan, you can talk a little bit about, I guess, how they operate. Yeah. I guess, um, on the, I guess we, we sort of talk about square ferment as being kind of rare, but, um, really that was what everybody brewed in. You know, the, the cylindrical conical is relatively a new invention, so like 1920s and, and one of the benefits from CCV, I guess is the automation of the. Of the brewing, you know, you can, you can harvest yeast, um, from the bottom and actually, I think in the sixties, a bit before my time, but everyone talks about, uh, what the, uh, red barrel and, uh, one of the things that allowed that kind of, um, that kind of large scale commercial brewing was. The fact that they actually had what was a top fermenting yeast, um, in a CCV and it became bottom fermenting. So I think what these had a paper in the sixties, um, round putting, uh, a top fermenting yeast into a CCV and, um, I know similar, I mean, they did that was it, when did they do that? Fillers? I think late sixties, early seventies. Yeah. So, um, you can, you could turn our, our yeast into a, into a bottom fermenting, uh, yeast, in fact, actually class free. Um, so the Gilead uh, classification system was, um, done by a brewery for working for GSS in the 1950s. And it's just the different classes kind of, uh, associated, uh, is, it is quite sort of superficial 'cause it's just looking at sort of, um. Flocculation or the lack of flocculation. So you can have, um, you can have more than one yeast within the Class three classification system. Um, but loosely it's a, a good way for us to differentiate between our, our two sort of brewing yeasts. Uh, but class three is really Flo in, like Fergus said, it, it makes amazing, uh, uh, when you propagate it alone in the lab, you have these amazing sort of like discs, like UFO sort of discs and it just sediments out. So it works really well in actually, uh, CVS and, um, we did a collaborative brew with Brew York and we actually sent them just class free so they could ferment with it in their CCDs. And, um, so, and that worked pretty well. Um, but with the squares for the operation of the squares, I think, um, one of the real benefits from using the Squares is for, for Cask. So a lot of people used to historically prime cask and um. It is not actually that long ago. Again, thinking about that brewers used to pay on og. Mm-hmm. Um, Hmm. and what was it? Nine early nineties. Um, so with, um, with that, there's a long history of, you know, brewers using sugar and priming sugar. And one of the great things about having like a, a, a sort of square fermentor where you are harvesting from the top, um, if the yeast is in balance. Yeah. Um, the timing of your, your yeast, um, harvest really controls the fermentation so you can kind of stop the fermentation, sort of leaving some residual sugar. And I dunno if it's just, um, the romance, I really like that. I mean, it's a, it's, we, we will get into how to manage a, a JUUL strain in a minute, but it can be a, um. Yeah, I, I think we both like this sort of romance around using, you know, the craft it's stories. Yeah. And I think the more, the more you stay in this, in the sort of brewing industry, you realize that actually most of the time we're selling stories. Really. That's, that's sort of, yeah. That's, that's what we're in the business of. Um, and you can, you know, you can manufacture a story or, or you can try and use what you've already got. And we, I guess we, we've, we've been gifted some, some really, really valuable things where we've got some history and some, some, some good stories to tell people. Um, although our marketing team don't like the word fermentation, so we try and stay away from talking about fermentation specifically. Um, I think it's too, too complicated a word for people. But, but having, having a link to that sort of historic e strain, having, having some links to, to sort of, the, the past I think is, is, it can, can be a really useful story as long as you're not, I. As long as you're not stuck in it, I think you just, you don't wanna be absolutely stuck in it, in your history and in your past, but I think you can use it and help to build that story, I think. Yeah, and I, and I guess what you've done is kind of in a way modernize and adapt, Hmm. let's say the square fermenters, and you know, I mean, brewhouse is different, but there's the square fermenters themselves, so you're still keeping a lot of the elements, but you, I guess you've made some changes when you took, or they've made some changes since those late nineties, ones from the earlier ones. And to make them maybe more efficient, use less losses, harvest more efficiently. Yeah. So, you know, obviously probably the biggest change is they, they're lidded, so, so they're not completely open. Um, I think that did change the beer for the worst, apparently. Um, apparently you need a, a, a pigeon or two in the beer to, uh, it was never the same again. Um, yeah. Any, any brewery, any brewery who has had open has definitely got some stories about finding things in the bottom of a vessel after they've emptied it. Um, whether that's pigeons or cats. Yeah. Or ho well, maybe I think one or two have found some human beings in there. But generally, generally pigeons and cats I think are what people find, uh uh, and so ours, so that can't happen. Yeah, what's I think, uh, I think we, well it was, it, uh, was it Michael Lad, one of our old hr? Mm-hmm. Um, what he used to do Adnams Brewery tours and when he, uh, used to give the, uh, uh, the sort public a tour around the brewery, one of his favorite quips was, um, uh, we've only had sort of two deaths on a Adams Brewery tour. Uh, one of them was drown. One person drowned in the fermenter. Um, but they managed to get out six times to have a not true, just to be absolutely clear. I am editing that part out? That's gospel. So I, I remember it was a guy I used to work with, um, in one of the breweries I first started at. And he said when they were, I mean, I probably don't if I should say the name of the brewery, but I think it was LERs, so who cares? And they used to, like, when they finished their shift, they used to get a mug and just Yeah. out tops of fermenters, like, you know, just have, and they'd all like pass around beers by literally just scooping them out the tops of open top fermenters. I. I think that's, that's highly likely. Yeah. I think we've, I think there's a sort of off topic a bit, but um, we used to have, uh, a cell, well we still have a cell, but the Casper used to go down into the cellar, uh, for a sort of week before, before it was sort of taken back up in salt. Um, and as they were rolling it in, there's a bit where it's gotta get through a, a sort of curve. So they had someone in the cellar whose only job was really to, to make sure those cast got round the curve without getting stuck. Um, and he had a bucket of beer right beside him that he would, that he would. Help himself to all day. Uh, and then moaned about the fact every now and again, he had to get up and actually do actually move a cast around the corner, which is the only reason he was in the cellar in the first place. Um, but yeah, I think, I think most breweries of an age will have stories of people on bottling lines, on kegging lines, in, in, in, in, you know, in tank farms with their bucket of beer. Um, that, that obviously is not something we encourage anymore. Uh, we, and we typically have rules to stop that. Um, but that is, that is part and parcel of where the brewing industry has been. And I think that is, that is, that is fact for most breweries of an age, actively discourage. We actively discourage that. Thank you, Dan. We actively discourage. We put lids on the buckets, you know? Yeah, it is, it's really cool. So let, I mean, let's dive into this dual ye strain.'cause it, I mean, it is a thing of, it's a work of art to manage that. I, I, you know, we've worked together on contract brewing and stuff, so I've seen firsthand some of the, some of the things you, you both have to do in order to manage t strains that, I mean, 99.99% of craft brewers just don't, No. even worry about. Um, so maybe we can just go through that because I think it's fascinating and there'll be a lot of people listening to this who probably just dry yeast in the top of the tank and walk away. So this is the other side of that, which is managing a dual yeast strain with propagation. Um, we don't, we manager, that's the, uh, that's the simple answer. Um, we, we have, we have some plasters. Um, but you ne you can never really, I've been thinking about this a lot recently 'cause we've, you know, you, you have your ups and downs and, uh. You things change all the time and you have to, I think malt for example, is really interesting. Some of the things that can affect, like pre flocculation for example, so class free. Um, one of our biggest issues with managing the yeast strain is class free basically drops out too early and um, essentially class one sort of takes over and cla class one is really non flocculent. So you get really. High yeast counts and as Fergus, so before it just chews through any sort of residual sort of sugar in the fermentation. Um, but I know there's a lot of work being done on like pre culation, but there's, there's things in our malt specification that you just can't define. Um, so you, you, you, you know, the, the micro floor in the field affects some of these, um, precursors for like pre culation in the, in the grain and then, and therefore the malt. And we just have no control over that, and that will always be like that. And, one year it might be better than another year. but that's just, that is part and parcel. So I guess the, what I'm trying to say is we'll never truly fix our yeast. It's, it's, Mm-hmm. yeah, it will always, so our kind of, our management techniques is to have like a continuous propagation. So I think. It's definitely got worse, I think, over certain periods of time where I think, I think when we started, we didn't need to continuously propagate as much. Um, but as you sort of tweak things in the brewery to control, say attenuation limits, uh, inevitably actually we end up causing an issue for class three. So class three tends to like a bit more of the simple sugars. Um, it's not as fa favorable come to mock trials, so it tends to drop out, um, before the sort of fermentation is sort of finished. So, um, with higher MCV temperatures, um, we, um, so in the mash, um, particularly with the mill star, I think we, um, one of probably the things that probably you, you never think about from going from a mash ton to wet conditioned milling. So. If anybody is doing cast beer, um, one of the things to, to really consider is the do in times, 'cause I think it gets talked about, but I mean, I think Te Leaves were in a similar position, or fo or fosters, sorry. Um, they had like a five minute mash stand because when you're daring in, um, because the, the, you know, the, the starchy endo sperm is, you know. We, the dough in time is, you know, part of your mash stand really. So I think that's the one thing as we've got improved our sort of control, um, that's actually probably consequently made it harder to sort of manage class three. So the continuous propagation needs to keep happening. So essentially what we're doing is every two weeks, um, we have class three, um, sort of sent to us sort of, um, quarterly from, from the yeast bank and, um, we kind of make our own slopes. And then, um, from those slopes we grow up class three, which goes from sort of a hundred, um, mil liter, you know, as bigger. And then we eventually pitch it into, into a brew. Um. But we're continuously prop that last stage of the propagation system. We have like a five barrel, um, propagation vessel. So, uh, once we've, uh, gone from the lab to that first stage in there, we'll sort of pitch in four barrels of the, of the work and then sort of leave 20% and then top it up with fresh work. And we just keep this continuous propagation system going so we can maximize the amount of class free we're, we're putting into the pitching use to maintain that sort of 50 50 balance. Um, mm-hmm. So. It's a hell of a lot of work, um, in, in the, you know, the laboratory, uh, the brewers, you know, um, so why, why do we do it, I guess? Um, because, you know, it's kind of like family, isn't it? Yeah. We can't just, we can't just chuck it out the door, can we? Um, we here longer than we have, so. Yeah. So, um, and then on the, on the plus side. Yes, it is a really difficult yeast strain to sort of manage, but it's just absolute on its day. It's so beautiful. I think like the, the sort of flavor profile is sort of next to none, and that in combination with the square fermentation vessels, it's just, um, the esta profile. So the, the main thing with the square fermentation is the aspect ratio, right? So that's the, that's the big, the big difference. And having that sort of lower aspect ratio, you just have CO2 evolution happens easier. So you get more ester production. And our yeast is sort of really, it's kind of like a Belgian ale yeast, really. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, and it's fantastic for those kind of styles of beer. Um, when we put in the new cellar, well we call it the New Cell new for, for about, so we didn't, we. In sort 2015 as kegging beer was sort of growing, um, we used to use banks for all of that. So, um, there was also the kind of go, what would become five that sort of no and low. So, um, it was sort of finished in 2018, the new seller where we bought Bright Biff, um, processing on site. So prior to that we literally just did cask on site. So we brought in CC vs. Um, centrifuge, uh, filtration, uh, kegging, um, and on. And then that allowed to do the sort of processing for the reverse osmosis for the de alkalization of the GAship 0.5. Um, so when we were putting in those, um, dual sort of purpose, um, vessels, um, we did do some experiments with, you know, brewing, um, like broadside, um, in, in, in CCV, and it just. It just wasn't the same. It like, it was so different. We, we didn't have to do very many trials. Um, and actually there's, there's something to be said as well. Um, it's not just the romance with the squares. I think from a brewing perspective, like you feel, I mean, um, you just feel so part of the process. You go and open up a hood and you actually can see the yeast head and um, you know, what the kind, you know, if you sort of know by looking at it sort of vape. I, I dunno if we're within 1% of that, of how, how good it is, what the balance of the yeast is. But, um, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that you can still observe by the yeast head top fermenting. So that's something that I really, really like. And, um, I know, you know, we are not the only people who sort of swear by. Um, sort of open squares, um, so to speak. I know, uh, Shunra in sort of Bavaria, it's all about the open squares. Um, so it's, you know, we are not, we're not the only advocate of, of squares and um, certainly the sulfur scrubbing is next to none. So I think at some point we'll probably talk about sort of contract brewing, um, where we've had to, um, well we did some for yourself obviously. Um, but we have done some laggers as well. Um, and I think most of the contract brewing we do is lagger. We, everyone's everyone's capacity, isn't it? Yeah. Um, but the squares are, are beautiful for laggers. I think. Um, it just, again, that sulfur scrubbing, um, a little bit of ester's, um, I think Rod White was talking about, um. Madre the other, the other week at a, a lecture. Mm-hmm. And whether you, whether you like Madre or not, we won't get into that debate. Mm-hmm. Um, he was talking about some of the market research about what makes a really great lager. Mm-hmm. And anyway, some of the research backers actually people like a little bit Vesta profile. Mm-hmm. Um, so, um, again, with this, with even, even with brewing laggers, I thought you were gonna tell me man was made in squares That would be mad. I where you were going that. Yeah. Spanish squares. Yeah. So it's, um, and you know, like the likes of Heineken, you know, they ferment in horizontal C you know Yeah. Horizontal, um, uh, cylindrical. Yeah. Um. So, yeah, there's, there's a lot to be said from the, the square, from the esta profile. Yeah. And why, why we, why we'd give ourselves such a, a lot of work. But I think on the yeast it is, it is a, it's a relatively flexible yeast 'cause because it's too strange. You can, you can play more tunes with it in terms of flavor profiles and you can, with a single strain. Um, it's, uh, yeah. So I think we can, we, we can, we can, we can talk a lot about the extra work it takes to manage it, but I think we still are on the, on the side that it take it's worth the extra work. Um, but there is no question It is extra Yeah. And do, do you ever play with the balance, so you said like 50 50, right? Between the class one and class three is like, when does that percentage shift? Does it start to cause a problem? 70 30 is the kind of in both ways. So it's the kind of, once it's, that's kind of the, the level, the bandwidth that we're, we're sort of looking for. Yeah. And, and what happens if it's 71 or 70 to the other? Like what sort of differences do you see? Like flavor wise, performance wise? Um, I think if class one is starts to get above sort of 70%, then you, the phenolic side comes higher. I think. I think both yeasts are puff positive. Um, but it's the contact, I think it's that additional, um, contact time that you have with the high yeast counts. Um, with on the other side, uh, also sulfur. Yeah, you get a lot more sulfur. Um, Hmm. and then on the high yeast counts and high yeast counts. Yeah. And then on the other side, I guess the be is a little bit sweeter. Um, 'cause cla when class, if class three was above 70%, you'd probably end up getting a lot of stuck fermentations if it was too high and you wouldn't get any yeast recovery. Yeah, no, there's no yeast cropping. Yeah. So, um, so yeah. Yeah. Pretty big differences. It's really fun. Not always fun. It's, um, it's good to know that we know nothing really. Yeah. Yeah. I think as long as you accept you're not wholly in charge. Yeah. Yeah. Then it's, then you get on fine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're talking about the levels of micro floor in the fields of the, of the weather, but the B has grown, then, I mean, yeah, you are Yeah, out of control really. But it's must be really fascinating actually, because, you know, as I said, for a lot of people it's just kind of pour in and, and close the lid and, and walk away. But actually. A lot of the science and the kind of, the real skill of a brewer is I balancing two yeast strains Yeah. uh, trying to get repeatable, consistent beers. And that's probably a good question. Like how do you find the consistency across, let's say, I mean, go ship, you make it so often now, but like how do you still see issues with the consistency from your sensory analysis 'cause of the e strain? Or do you think you're in, in a, in a good control of it? I think you always, we always know, I think even, even people working for AB InBev where Budweiser, um, is being brewed on 10 different sites will probably tell you what site Budweiser's being brewed on. Right. And, um, so you get, you know, you know, you get to know your beer. Right. And Hmm. I think, uh, Scott from Sierra Nevada was telling, he, he can always tell the difference between Yeah. The, the two different breweries. So I think with, with like a, a mixed culture, I think you always notice these. It's just how much, how, how big, yeah. How big that sort of difference is. So I think. I would, I'd hope, I hope, I think our beer is pretty consistent. Um, but there is times where, you know, I think when the yeast does go out of balance, it's, you know, you can, sometimes it gets like bottled broadside, for example, the way that we ferment with a really high og, um, that will get really exaggerated in that beer. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Um, but sometimes you get like this real sort of fake smoky, yeah. Actual smoky note, which I sometimes quite like in the background. But, um, when we have broadside, so, uh, we taste obviously beer every day. And, um, we, we have uh, uh, our tasting panel meets half 10 every morning. And part of, we have eight beers to taste, um, mixture of, you know, shelf life, freshly packaged stuff, um, in processed stuff. And, um. The last beer we always taste is bottled broadside. And the game is to try and guess, uh, when it, uh, when it was packaged. And, um, it's largely really difficult. So I think, but sometimes you think back, oh, the yeast was slightly out balance about four months ago. I wonder if that was, was a bit smoky. Yeah, I know. If that's four months ago, you know, so, but largely we don't know. So I guess the answer to the answer is actually it's pretty consistent, you know? And, Hmm. it is quite difficult to just, you know, to, to tell the difference. So, yeah. So I, I, I, I'd agree. I think it is la largely really consistent, but I think even batch to batch, if, you know, if you know your brand really well, you'll, you'll pick up differences. And, and that's true for every brewery. But I think, I think the, I don't think the. If, if we wanted to find a place where we are ultimately getting a hundred percent consistency day in, day out, I don't think you'd be using, you wouldn't be brewing it, you know, you wouldn't be using more, you wouldn't be using hops. You're adding too much inconsistency in Clearly we wouldn't be using yeast too much inconsistency. Yeah. So if, if, if you're ultimately is, we want a whole, you know, we want a hundred percent control of this product. You're not brewing it. You're, you're, you're buying in ethanol and some flavorings. So I think you sort of, and from my point of view, I like, I like the challenge of Yeah. of trying to get to a place where it is recognizably that product. Starting from things that are. Inconsistent and Yeah. And yeah, I know you've had Jamie on, but I think even Jamie would admit there's barely, is not wholly consistent and you would never expect it to be, uh, hops are not wholly consistent and you would never expect 'em to be, we try and work within parameters, but I think the challenge of for brewing, and the thing I I enjoy about brewing is, is the, the fact that it's not, it's not a dead set that you're gonna get there every time that there is some inconsistency, there is a challenge to it. You are working with natural ingredients that al don't always wanna do the thing you want 'em to do. There, there is, there is that inconsistency built into it. Mm. And I think you either enjoy that challenge or, or you don't. Yeah, no, I, I'd agree. I think, um, it's, it's, as much as we say it's a headache, it's part, it's part, it's definitely part of the, that continuous improvement. Um, I. That yeast aspect just makes such a massive difference. Mm-hmm. And, um, that's what makes it so enjoyable, isn't it? You know? Yeah. hmm. the meaning of life Yeah. Is you create meaning, don't you? And that's, and that's to try. We go, we're back to the first question. Yeah. What are what? Yeah, that was my first question. Yeah. Yeah. I always, you know, I always use this quote that you, uh, I dunno if you said, if you remember saying it Fergus, but when we were working together, you said brewing is like a game of whack-a-mole. like you hit one problem and two more pop up. And I was like, this is, I say that all the time to people. I'm like, it's just the perfect analogy of brewing. And it's like, that's why it's so fun. It's 'cause you like, oh, I've solved a problem and here's two more to co solve. And it's just like a never ending We don't know everything and we never will. That doesn't mean you stop trying to know more. I think you still want, you want to try and understand more, but I think you have to accept, you will never know all of it. Yeah. Um, and as long as you start from that point, then I think you can, then you can happily work in that, in that area. I think if you think you're gonna get to a point where you know absolutely everything, then I, I think you might as well stop now because you're not, you're not gonna get there, Hmm. but you can always know more. Did you know on the whack mo thing, Chris, that there's moles that you can't even see that are popping up that are not even on the board? I just vision be like on a whack-a-mole thing, just hitting things that aren't there and people Yeah. Yeah. even. They're not, they're not in front of you. They're behind. You know, that's another conversation. Um, is this Yeah. A There you go. Do you, um, so when you are, when you are using, Out, Chris. It's fine. when you, when you are comparing, so because you say you use other yeast strains as well, right? It's not just, you are not just using Yeah. glass one and class three. How, in terms of like yeast health, uh, do you do make any changes or like how, how does it compare to the different yeast strains that you use when they're kind of singular, I guess? Um, well, I guess when we change on, uh, like now, um, routine is to get some analysis done on things like fan and uh, and like, and like that, um, we tend, we use yeast fit as a, um, as a sort of standard addition. So, um, we'll sort of tweak it up and down depending on what we need to do. Um, yeah, we use zinc as a, as a standard addition. Again, something that we can tweak up and down, um, as required. So, um. I guess for dried yeast, I guess it's a bit more standard. I, I would say, um, but for ours, we can, we can, you know, we, we, we'll tweak that up and down, but we then, we tend to, it's a bit more, it's probably more reactionary than proactive. Mm-hmm. We'd love it to be more proactive. But sometimes you need to get some data before you can make those changes. Yeah, yeah. Especially when there's so many other variables as well. Right. So it's hard to know. We use, we don't use that dry often enough to get enough of a data picture really. Yeah. What sort of styles does this yeas really lend itself to? And I guess in tandem with the, with the, with the squares, but what, yeah. What sort of Belgian style. Yeah. It's, think it really excels in? it's a wannabe Belgian Really? It's a Belgian style. Yeah. I think it's an expat from Belgium. Yeah. Um, so, but, and I think that's generally true. I think we do, we do some lovely Belgian pro sort of profile beer. So there's a really, uh, I think you've done a whit beer, which is, which is beautiful. Um, I think there's a, there's a Belgian blonde. There's a Belgian blonde which has all the ca Yeah. I think drinking, you wouldn't know it wasn't Belgium. Um, so I think it, it, it's natural, natural happy place is is, is in Belgium, just which we're not too far out, you know. Yeah. I think we, a couple of stones through or across the water, we'd be there. Yeah. So we, yeah, we're pretty close. Um, the triple, uh, we do a sort of Belgian style triple as well, bitch. Yeah. Grant again, really great. Yeah, so a lot of, I think for a lot of the mainstream beers, we're trying to not let it show too much that that sort of natural, that natural sort of tendency it wants to have. But you can always pick it up in the background and think, I think classically people have always described the, the adom yeast, you know, even things like south or bitter as having a sort of spicy characteristic. And I think that that is really what people mean. It is that sort of slightly, yeah, that, that slight pH note in the background, uh, is really what people are sort of really trying to describe. So cool, so unique as well, right? Because that's really sets your bears apart from Yeah. bitters, for example, which is, you know, probably using very similar ye strains in the UK or abroad and then, but yeah, that, that adds so much uniqueness to, to a style. Yeah. And I think, I think it's one of the things you, you sort of lean into or you try and shy away from. I think we, we sort of do a bit of both, you know, I think we have lent into it recently with some of the more bells and star beers that Dan's put together. Um, but for a lot of the sort of mainstream beers, you, you try and reign it back, but it still add this, it still adds that subtleness in the background. So you can't, you can never get rid of it completely. It is still there. Um, so you have to try and build it into the profile of what you're trying to do. Yeah. But we like, well, I like that. Yeah. I like the fact it is something that is, is not wholly reputable by, by other people. It is not something that everyone's gonna be producing. I like the, and we talk about the same thing on water really. We don't, we don't have an or sort of system here for the brewed water. We do work with the water that is, you know, is coming out of the tap basically. Um, and I like the fact it has. It has a resonance for where it's made Mm, is at, is part of the story for me. It is the fact that actually lot, you know, lots of what we make is not gonna be something you can just go and brew at another kit somewhere else. Yeah. absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it'd be almost impossible, right? To, do like, Nothing's impossible, but I think it'd be difficult. And I, and Yeah, I like the fact it's difficult. yeah, yeah. And how did you, because of course I'd say whatever, in the last 15 years, 20 years, however long it's been since dry hopping started to become more, more, uh, everywhere. How does, how did that, does that interact with the sort of the Esther characters and how did that interact with the yeast and was that like a weird challenge to overcome? I, I, I actually think, um, the square's pretty good for dry helping actually. And, um, the, some of the issues around the squares are. Sort of built round seven day residency that's, that's, you know, you and properly cask conditioned beer. You know, you're not going from, from, uh, to a conditioning tank or, or any of that. And, and conditioning the beer at the brewery. It's, you know, it's seven days in the F fee and then it's out into cask. And that secondary fermentation really does happen in the cask. So. Mm-hmm. You know, the brewery has been built around that, you know, um, for the right reasons. And as we have done more and more different types of beer with the addition of dry hopping, it does put a pressure on the, on the FE capacity. So that is a challenge is, is, is tank turnaround time. And um, even if you had loads more squares, it's the timing as well that's real is a real issue. So even given more time, you don't always want more time in the fe. Um, I think part of. The timing of the skim of, of the yeast harvest. Um, you, you, the winter time, it tends to drop in a little bit more in the summer, so you still, you get a fluctuation with the season as well. Mm-hmm. Um, you get like this kind of leftover bit of crowden on the top, which really protects, uh, the beer from their open fermenters. Right. So, um, it gives it, um, a microbial protection, but also oxidation. So I think one of the main challenges, um, with the dry hopping is, is the timing, the timing of the dry hop, and it's really quite compromised for dry hopping. Um, it'd be great to be able to have lower yeast counts, um, chill the beer for, for various reasons. But you can't really do that in a, in a, in a. In an open fermentation, if you start putting the cooling on, putting the brakes on, um, and then leave it in the same tank open to air, you're just gonna cause all sorts of issues. So you kind of have to dry hop at your sort of final kind of temperature, um, at the end of free rise. So that can be a bit of an issue. Um, but overall, actually the, when it comes to extraction efficiency, I think the squares are brilliant. We were talking about the aspect ratio being really positive for the Asta profile. Well for the contact and, um, for, for beer on Hops is great. So, you know, you can do some pretty, pretty high dry hopped beers and actually losses are relatively lower than what they would be in a CCV and you get such good extraction. So the. Time that takes. Um, I think when we were doing some experiments for the contract brewing review, when we did it in the squares initially, you know, we were talking about like 24 hour sort of dry helping times, and the, and the, uh, we consequently moved to CCV just to be, um, more in line with what you're doing at about 50 sites. Um, but yeah. Um, so yeah, the extraction is amazing. Is, is, is really good. So there's, there's some really good positive things. Um, the losses, um, I think we don't have, we could probably get better at losses, but relatively the losses aren't, aren't probably as high as, as we see in CCV. Mm-hmm. Um, if we ha we, we'd probably, if you redesign them, probably have an adjustable mushroom. Mm. So the mushroom is just like, kind of like the racking arm. It sort of protects the, the outlet of. The, of the tank. So I think if you designed them, I'd probably, um, there'd be two things I would do. I'd have an adjustable racking arm, and, um, I'd have them so that you could pressurize them so that, um, after af, after the, after primaries sort of finished, um, you could start sort of, uh, spending the tanks and just protect them. That would be the two things I'd change really. Or, or, or advance. So if anybody, if Briggs are listening next time on new squares. Um, but we did, we did look at pressurizing the tank. They're not pressure rated.'cause we, we were looking at CO2 recovery. So I guess that's talking about one of the other things that aren't particularly good on squares is, is CO2 recovery as obviously there's been a, a few people coming into the game who, um, have. A bit, you know, like d work and they've been doing a lot of work with SSV and Yeah. And have got CO2 recovery working on relatively smaller volumes, whereas we got laughed out the room, didn't we? I think, I think it's, it's still, it's technically possible to recover CO2 from, from Hope. Yeah. Open squares with a sort of hood basically. Um, but the efficiency is gonna be obviously a lot less. So your, your sort of, your, your sort of payback's gonna be a bit longer, so, but it is technically possible. Yeah. Um, but yeah, when we, we did talk to a couple of CO2, uh, sort of recovery, uh, companies, what, three, four years ago? Yeah. Um, I, I said the best thing for us to do is just buy a large tank and fill it with CO2 when it's cheap, when it's cheap and sell it. That was, that was their advice at the time. Become co two merchants was their advice. What brewing volume are you with? Squares. Whoa. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I wouldn't, I actually, I didn't consider that, which is, you know, not in line with what I do regularly, but yeah, the, the, the recapture side would be quite Yeah. It's, it, it's possible. It's possible. possible. that's, possible possible. And I did talk to someone in who's brewing in the sort of seventies and they said they did do it for a bit, um, at one of the sort of brews in Yeah. Uh, one of the brewers in Burton I think did it. Um, it, yeah, usually inefficient. Um, so they obviously stopped doing it, but, um, but it is possible. Mm-hmm. It's just that interface at the start as well. Fermentation. Um. You've got obviously a lot of air in the tank initially, and it's that, that, that, that change from when you start collecting and, and then, yeah. So Hmm. Yeah. Well, I mean, talking about operational, how difficult is it to clean a square or How do you do that? Is there anything different to a CCV or is it just spray ball and, spray ball. Spray ball. Yeah. I think the, there was some software that they used for getting the amount of time so that the spray ball covers every single part of the tank. Mm-hmm. So that compared to CCP is gonna obviously be. Yeah. You've got corners to work with. Yeah. Um, so, but Yeah. think, yeah, times and amount of water is, is higher I think on, on, on cleaning squares, but yeah, we don't, they're not, they're, they're not like the old vessels where we have to go in and clean them with a, with a yellow screwing pad. Um, yeah, you can, you can, you can use them with a spray ball there. Yeah. And they, and they, they clean really well. Yeah. But you do have to use more water comparatively than a, than a sub conical vessel. Yeah. And it's that interface isn't it, as well? Yeah. At the end of the tank when it's draining down and, um, but yeah. Yeah. So they're a little bit more complicated, but, um, I think, but it's the same for CCDs, you know, the, the principles and um, um. I guess not having blocked, um, spray balls and keeping your keeping and having good and yeah, just having good managing your, your, your CIP sets and, you know, making sure, uh, you're, you're looking after that pre use a lot of, I think that's probably one of our largest increases in water usage compared to the CCV is getting rid of the bottoms before CIP. Yeah. So we have, um, we know we, we, we have to, I forget how much we use, but it's, you know, it's a consi, it's another pref pre-flash that goes to, to the, to our settlers, which goes out as, as waste yeast. So there's an additional step, which is a bit more, which is, uh, yeah, uh, uh, uses a bit more water on top of that, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can imagine that. I mean, as you said, like rectangles, Yeah. corners Yeah. bit harder to clean, more surface area, like the bottom is a lot harder to clean. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what was I gonna ask next? Oh, yeah. Um, so one question I definitely have is on yeast harvesting. Like how does that look for a, uh, in a square fermentor? And maybe the second part to that question would be, does, how does that affect your yeasts? And does, do you have different techniques for that? You would think it would be standard because your dual yeast strain for yeast harvesting. Um, I think the actual process of Beas harvesting is, um, although we would, we were digging out some, uh, we were digging out some cupboards the other day and there was some sort of, sort of hand sketches of automating, uh oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, so it's not automated, but there, there were some, originally when they put'em in, in 2001, they did look at a way of trying to automate the yeast harvesting. Uh, but I think in the end it was a huge amount of complexity in terms of, in terms of pipe work and then cleaning, um, Hmm. and, and wasn't, wasn't worth it basically. Um, so it is manual, so it is, uh, sort of, you know, we, we, we lower in a, a sort of stainer steel, uh, sort of upturn funnel, um, and get it to the, the sort of level of the interface between the yeast and the beer. Uh, and then basically vacuum that across into the, into the yeast storage. So it's not, not hugely complicated. I think the thing that is always critical is the timing of it. Um, and I think there is a sort of general, you know, we're sort of two days after, after start fermentation is when we sort of 40 hours when we start looking to skim it. Um, but it does really depend on that beer as well. And you do have to. Adjust it depending on whether, whether it's doing what you want it to do. Yeah, definitely. I think, um, again, observation you, if you, you can, you can actually see if the yeast head is starting to fall in. Mm-hmm. Um, so you might have to make a decision of, of taking the yeast early, um, depending on what beer it is and if you need the, the recovered yeast for subsequent brewing. Yeah. Sometimes there's, there's a necessity to skimming. Yeah. Well, brewings just a compromise, isn't it really? Yeah. We have no yeast. Yeah. Uh, then you're skimming that beer. Yeah. You might not wholly skim it, but you need to get something off it. Yeah. Um, fortunately, uh, the, the sort all the c all the CIP around the, the, I guess all the CIP. With the yeast room and stuff, that's all automated. So I think historically, back in the day, I think, I think yeast had once got CI pt then you had to, then you had to go back and, and yeah. And, and Res Skim. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we bring with today. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but we, uh, we went on to Balm Yeast in the early nineties, so I think, I guess there was, maybe I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be, maybe I'm being too romantic about this story. Yeah. But we'll see. Um, I think Adnams had two, uh, really bad yeast infections. Um, I mean, there was always a slight infection, to be honest, but they had some really, they had a really bad one in the late 1980s. So, um, pickier, it was a world wheat, uh, wild yeast. Um, and the person that I originally took over from at ATMs had sort of worked at Atna since like early seventies, and he was the. So Adam's yeast expert. Really? Um, Philip May, and one of the things he told me, he said, I knew there was something wrong with the yeast when it turned pink. So, um, but they used, they, they used to have a yeast press and, um, Jonathan, I think Jonathan had bought the yeast press secondhand from Youngs Brewery. So I think Youngs had three, three yeast presses at one point. And before a yeast press unknown to me, they had a yeast table and that was what they were using before the yeast press. That's a yeast table. It's, uh, it does exactly what it says on the 10. It's, um, according to Jonathan, it was literally, again, having cloths, but it just sat on a table and you had a vacuum pump. Oh, so it's a use price. Yeah. But on a table, but not as many plates. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Yeah, yeast presses are terrible things. Yeah. So that was where the sort of infection had storing the yeast cake. Um, and then there was another sort of really bad infection in the early nineties, not quite as bad. Um, and with the way that Judy then changed mm-hmm. Um, the decision was to take the, the sort of bomb go upgrade to a bomb yeast system, which we have today. So, um, we store the, the, you know, the yeast under beer. Um, the con, the sort of distance that the yeast has to travel from the fermentation room to the storage vessels is not ideal. Mm-hmm. Um, I think if we were to, I, I looked at different pumps. Um, we currently employ like a liquid ring pump, um, but the sheer forces are quite high on that, so it's not particularly good for the yeast. But again, um, there's not really a better pump out there. You would probably on paper use something like a peristaltic pump. Um, but. Because it's so gassy and we're having to pump at such a large distance, um, that's the, that's the kind of pump we have to employ. Mm-hmm. Um, but like Fergus said, it's pretty, it's still pretty hands on on that side. And the lowering of the funnel on the, to the beer level is, is done by feel.'cause you can't actually see where the level of the beer is 'cause you've got the yeast head. So, um, the funnel, the funnel starts, Hmm. you can feel the funnel floating as it becomes buoyant on the, on the surface of the beer. So, yeah. Um, that's still done sort of by hand. Um, and yeah, it sort of gets pumped to farm use. But the micro is, it obviously definitely improved back on the Microbiologic side. And I. Talking about consistency. Um, consistency isn't just about, you know, um, the flavors you want. It's about not having the flavors you don't want, you don't want. Right. And, um, you know, Mike Yeah. Hygiene is such a massive part of brewing. Really. It's nine 90% of brewing really is hy, isn't it? And, um, I think, um, Hmm. yeah, the yeast handling side and talking about management of the yeast, that's the, you know, that's another part of it as well. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, absolutely. really fascinating. I, I feel like, you know, this whole thing, both the, the squares and the yeast itself is like, it's such a really important part of the brewing heritage of this country. Yeah. Um, and I think it's really great that you guys are still continuing this on even, you know, even though that, you know, on a side by side comparison, it might be slightly harder to deal with. But I feel like, you know, for on the sake of the, how important this is and how unique the beers are at Adnams because of this yeast, I think it's like really, really important work to keep it going. Um, so yeah, I think it's really great that you guys are doing that. And it's been like genuinely really interesting to hear how it's managed, uh, the flavors it gets, especially interaction with the square fermenters as well. It's not something that we, that you, you would see very often in craft breweries anymore, but, you know, actually, as you said, some of the best beers. Both like in this country and, you know, Shunra, as you mentioned for me, is one of my favorite breweries in the world, and they're still operating these squares because of the flavors that they get and, and the way that it works. I think it's really, really, really awesome to hear about this. I think it's really great. You guys are doing a really good job of like keeping the heritage going. I mean, I had, uh, Ben and Rob from Thorn Bridge on who, you know, saved the, some of the, one of the unions as well. So, um, I feel like, you know, I think it's really cool that we're still keeping the brewing heritage going. Even if, uh, you know, I think, parts of the craft beer world are going in different directions and it's really yeah, but it still doing has to be relevant though. You still have to be, you still have to deliver flavors that people are interested in, uh, and people want. So it can't, it can't just be heritage for heritage sake. It has to be, has to be something that still ties into, you know, in, into a commercial reality that we, we also need to sell it. Uh, we don't wanna stick it in a shelf in a library. We, we, you know, we wanna make beer that people enjoy and still drink. So I think we have to be careful about overplaying the heritage. It still has to be something that people want. Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I mean, otherwise it will just be a museum piece. Right. Um, but yeah, I guess that's how have you is have you made any changes due to, you know, let's say the res resurgence or the, the rise of craft beer, so to speak, as, as a category? Have you made any changes to, uh, because Adam's going, she says in like the twenties. So have you made any, 72, 18 72, Chris twenties. 1872? It is written on the. How films, uh, yeah, I think, I think No Brewery I think really can say they, they haven't, haven't taken a sort of a look at where, where craft brewing has sort of gone in, in, in the world. Not just the uk but, um, and so that has affected the, the sort of stars of beer we do, the sort of hawks we use. Um. And, and you and the marketing of things. So I think, I think everyone has to, everyone would've taken, taken a note of where things have gone. Even, even those breweries that are very much about the history will have still made a nod to actually where, where things have gone in terms of flavor profiles. Timothy, Timothy Taylors are doing Colabs. Tim Taylor did a CoLab. They did, they did. Um, they did a really hoppy beer, uh, what was it called? Hop store. So yeah, even, even what we would consider as really traditional sort of beers, uh, breweries have all taken a note of where, of where what people drink. And that's what comes down to, it's not just about the fact it's craft beer, it's really about what people want drink. Um, yeah, because we, like I said, we don't wanna be. A museum, we wanna still be relevant. We wanna still make beers. Beers that people wanna drink. Um, and if that means it's not all fogles, uh, well that's all right. We quite like some citrus and some mosaic and some, uh, uh, people have gone out Sera. But we really like sriracha. Well, fogles can be pretty peachy and lemonade. Yeah. Um, there's a scale there, there is a scale, I guess. Um, will, I was talking to Will, uh, because we were talking about like pop selection in like, you know, uh, consistency in beers. And Will, will was talking about the fact that Fugal, he sort of feels Fugs has changed since the, since the advent of mechanical, uh, mechanical picking. Mm-hmm. So they basically have to pick Fugs a lot, a lot earlier. Um. Than what they would've done like kind of 50 years ago, 60 years ago. Mm-hmm. Um, so the oils don't quite develop, um, as much 'cause the kind of cone opens up and mm-hmm. It gets shattered too much. Okay. So they tend to pick it a lot earlier than what historically they would. Now, I'm not saying it necessarily was really lemony and peachy, but it can definitely have a real lemony note. So we did have a fle sample that was really great for once. Yeah. Alpha of 8.48% Alpha said 8.42. Yeah. Yeah. Five sample. um, but a lot of the traditional bitter drinkers, do you know when Ghost ship came out? They, they make, they like, they, you know, very, very traditional bitter drinkers like. Surprisingly, uh, you know, they like those flavors, or not surprisingly, you know, it's, um, I think we all the different s of the world have, have something to offer beer. Right. And, um, you know, we'd like the New Zealand. Mm-hmm. Eoir, we like the Australian terroir, we like the us. Um, and England has its own terroir, which is changing, isn't it, with climate change, I think. Yeah. Um, you know, um, so who knows what kind of hops they'll grow in the UK Hmm. in the future, but, um, yeah. But you have to be relevant, I guess. And, um, you know, we talk about South World Bitter being this legacy beer, but it was only the sort of fifties. Yeah. So 1872, Chris, uh, Hmm. uh, so like even the, you know, south World Bitter wasn't the bread and butter, you know, tally, tally Ho and other, you know. Mild, you know, you, you think how mild has Yeah. Has, has been and gone for, for most breweries. Um, yeah. Things do change, don't they? Over, over time, so, yeah. Yeah. I think you change with it, don't you? There's no, no brewery out there that has completely stood in, in its place when it was first sort of founded. Every brewery will have changed over time. Um, used this analogy doesn't work anymore, but used to say, you've gotta be like Madonna. You've gotta reinvent yourself. Uh, and half your listeners won't even know who Madonna is anymore. But yeah, you have to reinvent yourself every night, otherwise you're not relevant. Um, and you have, if you wanna still have a business, you still have to be relevant enough. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's the thing with the craft that I guess we, again, we're not alone in, in those conversations. Where do you pretend to be someone else? Yeah. Or, or, or are you yourself, I guess, I think, I guess you've always gone down that. You can't really pretend no, you are somebody else, you know? Um, no, I don't think it works. I don't, I don't have any successful, um, brewery that has, has managed to pretend to be someone else. Maybe there's a, maybe there's an exception in bur Andre, but I can't remember now. The Spanish squares. Spanish square, Spanish squares is so good. yeah, some wonderful points. And you know, I feel consumers can always spot inauthentic brands and not just breweries, but brands in no. yeah, it's really important that people do stay to, to true to themselves. It doesn't mean that things can't change within that, but the way that you present yourself and the way that you come across, I think it still has to be who you Yeah. Um, it's like, you know, the Steve Emmy meme when you walks with the skateboards, the Hello Fellow kids. It's like, it's exactly the, uh. How I, how I see some brands and I'm like, oh no. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So good. So, I mean, regular listeners of this podcast will know that I always ask for three things at the end of the podcast. So, I mean, thinking about it once we've been, uh, talking, but I'm gonna go something that probably is pretty generic, but I'm actually like, we talked so much about different parts. I think it'd be nice to bring it all together. So in, in your guys' opinions, what are the three best impacts a square fermentor has on your beer? Dan's already mentioned it, but I think that scrubbing aspect is, is really important to us, apparently.'cause our yeast does produce a lot of sulfur. So actually having a, having a process that scrubs that really well is, and, and we know from the comparison with the CCBs that the squares have a hugely beneficial impact on that, uh, footprint or footprint's. Great. Has a massive impact. You can fit it in a really small space. And then I guess the extra profile, I think that is usually important to, to peers like broadside, that, that esra profile from those squares is, is, you know, it's such a huge part of that flavor. Um, it's not, it's not as big a part of some other beers, but for broadside particularly, that is a, that is a phenomenal sort of, you know, percentage of that flavor in the end. And just, I guess provenance history, UUSP, whatever. Yeah. Whatever label that comes under. Um, yeah, it's part of our DNA. Um, you're not gonna get footprint. No footprint Is that impacts We take footprint now. Okay. Take footprint. That's, It is so good. It's got a top four. The only one that's ever had a top four. but yeah. Yep. Okay. Brilliant. I really appreciate those guys and look, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really, really appreciate it. Um, I know you guys have got, again, like everyone who comes on has got super busy schedules, so yeah, I really, really appreciate it and I feel like the listeners are gonna really, there are some absolutely amazing stories and like brewing history, but also that's being adapted to like, let's say like contemporary brewing as well. I think it was really fascinating. So thank you so much for sharing everything. It was, uh, genuinely really, really great and great to see you again. Yeah. I can come to South Fold, Always nice to see you. enough. Thank you, Chris. Brilliant. Thank you so much guys. Take care. Well, thank you so much to Dan and Fergus for that awesome episode. That anecdote about Bit Burger was crazy. Um, as well as just how I don't, there is a romantic side to managing those use strains and how unique that is. I feel like as a brewer, it's just some, as I said so many times when the episode sometimes, and I've done it before, it's quite easy to pitch, pitch your yeast and, and walk away. But to have that level of complexity on top of your already very complex. Brewery and beer styles. I think it's so cool. Um, it's like a real, I don't wanna say art, but it's a real, uh, maybe it is a bit of an art. I'm normally very much in the camp of, uh, brewing is science, not art. But there is, there is an element of art to that. Uh, and definitely, definitely a bunch of romance to that story. And, and I think it's really cool that, and something really important that we keep that going. Uh, I think it's great, great part of the industry and. The history of this, of making beer is 5,000 years old, it's not 10 like we sometimes think it is. So I think it's really important to keep these things going. So, yeah. anyone enjoy the episode. Please, as always, just share it across your channel, share it with a friend, with a colleague, that'd be really awesome, and I will catch you on the next episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast. Thanks for watching!