Ep 41 - Learning & Development - Georgina Young - St. Austell Brewery

If you’ve ever asked yourself, “How do you actually become a great brewer?” this episode is for you.

We’re joined by the brilliant Georgina Young, Brewing Director at @St_Austell_Brewery and one of the most respected figures in British beer, to unpack the real story behind learning, mentorship and development in brewing.

From running Fuller’s iconic Griffin Brewery to now leading brewing at St. Austell, Georgina shares an honest, insightful, and often funny look at what it takes to grow great brewers. And why it’s everyone’s responsibility.

Expect wisdom bombs, laughs, and a few eye-openers. Topics include:
🍺 Georgina’s journey from casks washing to command
👩‍🏫 Why mentorship matters now more than ever
🔍 How to spot brewing talent, and how to train it
⚖️ Balancing compliance, technicals and real-world skills
🔮 Where training in the brewing industry is headed next

Whether you're a head brewer or an aspiring one, this one’s a must-listen. Dive in.

00:00 Introduction and Apology
01:19 Guest Introduction: Georgina Young
02:36 Sponsor Message: AEB 
04:08 Georgina Young's Brewing Journey
08:41 Mentorship in Brewing
23:49 Learning and Development in Brewing
32:56 Balancing Compliance and Technical Skills
37:04 Responsibility for Learning and Development
38:38 Routes into the Brewing Industry
39:31 Spotting Potential in Brewers
43:18 Effective Training Methods
46:43 Balancing Time and Training
54:20 Future of Learning in Brewing
01:06:16 Quickfire Questions and Insights
01:12:59 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

🎧 Proudly sponsored by AEB – the go-to for Bio-Tech solutions in beer. Check out their brewing yeasts and products here https://www.aeb-group.com/uk

If you have any career pathway questions, you can contact Georgina at - georgina.young@staustellbrewery.co.uk

📈 Want to see where sustainability is heading? Check out the 2024 Craft Beer Report: brewresourceful.com/craftbrewerysustainability2024

Chris LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-lewington/

Transcript

0:13

Hello everyone and welcome to the latest episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast with me, your host, Chris Lewington. As with all good podcast episodes, I'm gonna start with an apology. Once again, I've let the once clockwork release of the Modern Brewer Podcast slip, so I do apologize to those who listen regularly. But as you all know, I actually have two other companies that I run breweries also, and brewing trade. I. They're both getting much, much busier, which is honestly great, something I'm really, really happy with. But what it really does is it eats into my ability to run the show as I previously could. So with this in mind, I will be stopping the Modern Borough Podcast. I'm only messing with you. There's absolutely no chance I would do that. But I will be moving to monthly releases instead of the biweekly ones that it's currently been. So that's it. Drama over. in this episode, to bring you back into positivity, I have an icon of the brewing world with me working away through the most respected, historic and impressive breweries the UK has ever seen. She started her career at Smiles Brewery. Then to Fullers, where she left as head Brewer in 2019, became the head brewer of Bath ales and is now the brewing director for St. Austells. There won't be a person listening to this who won't know Georgina Young. She's truly iconic, and so when I have respected for so long, actually, when I reached out to Georgina to come on the show, it turns out she herself is an avid listener, which I was first just so stoked about. I was like, what? Because on reflection, I think I was just so impressed that someone who started their career in pre 2000 and is the brewing director of one of the country's most respected breweries is still trying to absorb latest trends, listen to how does run their breweries and challenge the way that they think. So it is absolutely apt that in this episode we're gonna be talking about learning and development from one of the most impressive brewers this country has ever produced. Just before we get into it, I want to take a moment to talk about yeast fermentation and the science behind making better beer. Today we're diving into AEB, A company that's been pushing brewing innovation for over 60 years. I. A EB started in wine making, but has become a leader in brewing solutions, working with breweries worldwide to enhance your yeast selection better, your fermentations, and increase your process efficiency. Whether it's a crisp lager or a hazy New England IPA, or even a non alk, they've got yeast strains and fermentation tools designed to enhance flavor, improve consistency, and reduce brewing costs. From brewers like Northern Monk, pigeon Hill Brewing and Nils Oscar Brewery have collaborated with AEB on brewing projects from yeast selection to filtration and stability. Their Thermo brew range is tackling low and no alcohol, beers, bringing in citrus and tropical notes where traditional, strange, full, flat. And if you are struggling with Hazel stability, a B'S clarification and filtration solutions help keep your beer looking and tasting its best without compromising foam retention or aroma for yeast, nutrients and process optimization. AEB is bringing science into the brew house in ways that make better beer and brewing smarter. Want to learn more? Check out the link in the show notes. Okay then listeners, here we are. Please welcome to the show, Georgina Young. Hi Chris. Nice to see you. Nice to see you, and I will now start calling you George, as we just talked about, for most people in the industry, they know you as George, That's absolutely right, George. Yeah. I personally think probably everyone who's listened to this already knows you. But for those who might not know who you are, can you just give us a little bit about your brewing journey and where you got, how you got to where you are today? fine. Well, I mean, I started, um, at school in Bristol, um, and really like, enjoyed the sciences. Went off to uni in London to do biotechnology, um, using microorganisms for industrial uses. That's, we are talking quite a few years ago, um, and there was a class where we talked about beer, and I thought, this is quite interesting. Uh, by this point, a young man had introduced me to a real ale in a local West London pub on the river. Um, so the, the things were sort of working together quite nicely. Um, and um, and then actually it was a family friend, um, of my parents who said, well actually, you know, I work in the brewing industry. Would you like to see a brewery? So I went to look, it was the old Mort Lake Brewery actually. So I went to see the Mort Lake Brewery, you know, where you go up in a lift to the top of the cylindra conical of vessels. And this was just like, this is just awesome. This is, I reckon this is what I want to do. So I was, I was really lucky. I went off to Harriet Watt to do a master's then after my biotechnology, um, and you come out of, of Harriet Watt, um. With, without a Scooby how to brew back then. So I then went back to Bristol to my hometown and worked in a small microbrewery, um, as that's what they were called, uh, the late eighties, early nineties. Uh, lasted about a year there'cause I was just, you know, not doing the business any favors with the length of time it took me to dig out the Ashton, um, and, you know, drive the spank grain lorry and clean the cask. So it was, we parted company after a year and I went to, uh, bring research international, uh, just outside Red Hill and Nutfield, the research organization. I was there I think for six or seven years actually, um, in its heyday. And, come on, you met some amazing people and worked with amazing people while I was there running their, just running the pilot brewery. And, um, and then from there. a few jobs offers came and went. Some I was successful with, some I wasn't. Um, but for Fullers, when they needed a young production brewer because Mr. Jury was retiring and John Keeling was being promoted to brewing director, I was taken on, um, to, learn the ropes, work on, work on the shifts, and, um, yes, did that for seven years. Uh, I'm sure we'll talk about that a again a bit later. And, and then went off to do teaching for a while, and then lucky enough to come back to fillers for another seven years. Uh, and then doing all sorts of different things and roles. Um, and then when, um, ownership changed in 20 19, um, I had the opportunity to come down to, well, bar fails first as it was, um, then, and then onto further on to St. Aus. Um. quite tragic circumstances with, um, Roger, who again, many people in the industry will know passing away, but, you know, we were very close. So, you know, he then asked me to carry on his legacy for St. Austel. And obviously I, I sort of oversee both breweries now here in the southwest, um, as, as brewing director. So, uh, yeah, so that's where I've got to where I am. So started in first brewing job is in 1992, so a lot of the audience probably weren't even in existence then, but, Hey ho, there we are. Oh, it's actually the year I was Oh, well there you go. Um. yeah, that's, it's some career. You've definitely, I, I really find it fascinating about Fullers, it seems to be such a hub of people who've really gone on to do so many amazing things. Um, a lot of people I speak to, it's like, yeah, I was at Fullers for this stint and this bit. Especially in that, I guess that 2000 period be, I mean, I dunno how much has changed now, but, yeah. Um, and you've worked as you said, in so many incredible ones, and you've already mentioned at least, two incredible brewers in that as well. Um, have you seen any of them as your mentors and like how important do you think mentors I think, I think mentors are important. I think actually if we just go back a stage two, uh, brewing research international or people will probably know of Camden as it is now, um, although they don't have the brewing facilities down at, um, Nuffield anymore. All the expertise has is, is up at Chip in Camden. You know, I work with people like, uh, Charlie Bamforth, John Hammond, Denise Baxter, and if you are looking at papers, scientific papers now these were the guys writing them, you know, and I was, I was making their beers for them. And, um, I was lucky to learn so much from them and have, get my sort of technical grounding. Um, so I think they were all mentors in a way. Um, and then, like you say, yes, Fullers was an absolute, um, amazing organization., Yeah, I do have to give John Keeling credit for being my mentor. You know, he, he, um, took, saw something in me, you know, put all his faith in me, back in 1999 when I joined. But, but, you know, I, went, went through the hoops and the, the, you know, whatever you want to call it, working the shifts and, um, in all the different A areas,. So I don't remember him being, being back close to him in those first early years. You know, obviously the brewing manager, Brendan Bray, was very, very good to me. Um, and, you know, we sort of all supported e each other., And then I, you know, was, was sort of then given a bit of a management position running the cask line once we, we'd, um, put in, it was the old Molins line actually that came out that we put in. And that's sort of a bit of a first project. And then I suppose that's where I first like learnt to write a standard operating procedure and to realize that actually you needed to have instructions. You couldn't just, we couldn't all just rock up and, whack in Shives and Keytones and, you know, we needed to know what the findings rate was. And although you knew that, you kind of actually, people needed to know how to do that. And the best way to do that is to, to, to write it down, um, you know, and have it visible for, for us. So yeah, so that's, I think my first stint at Fullers was brewhouse fermentation. There was a tank farm project, was involved with cast line and, um, a little bit of kegging from what I remember. Um, and then, uh, by this point, my husband who has nothing to do with the bringing industry, I just have to point out, which is, which is probably quite helpful, keeps me a little bit of me sane. Um, we had our second child and then after that to feel like, well just need to be a little bit more flexible here. Um, so it was a painful decision to leave Fullers at that point. I then got a bit restless. I thought, oh, I'll go and be a teacher because. My parents. Were both teachers and Mm-hmm. we all think we can teach. It's actually an incredibly hard profession. So I was teaching physics, chemistry, and biology in a, uh, comprehensive in Richmond. And again, everyone thinks Richmond is a lovely leafy part of Southwest, Western London. There's an awful lot of poverty in, um, in Richmond as well that we often don't see., So that was the next sort of four or five years, just keeping an eye in with Fullers each year as things were changing. And, um, you know, was often asked to come and do the odd thing, but really thought, no, I, you know, I must, the government supported me to be a science teacher. I must, I must do my duty. So, um, so I then, um, but the, the drawer Fullers was just too great. So eventually I came back in, I think it was 2013 actually. I. I was also quite fortunate that while I'd been away,, another great friend and also a mentor to, to many in the industry, but also very helpful to me was Derek Prentice, who had been at, Young's. So he had been holding the fort, if you like. I mean, there had been some changes while I'd been away, but not too many that I couldn't get my feet back under the table quite quickly. Um, uh, so yes, Derek, again, very useful. We had quite a long overlap when I came back, which was fun. And then yeah, back on my own again. And then I think that's probably when I had more contact with, with, with John, , and knew that I needed to go and do brewing and packaging as, as well, you know, to really get that whole complete, complete picture, Um, because I suppose I was lucky knowing that. The succession for John was me as long as I played my card cards right? And, and could demonstrate that I was, I say tough enough, but I think they were looking for a little bit of that, Um, and also have enough commercial acumen and, make those challenging decisions because brewing, as you know, is all about balancing, balancing decisions. Whether that's quality, well, it's, we balance policy, do we? But it's efficiency, capital investment. It's just such a fine line, isn't it? we know we can save money by then reducing quality, but that's not where we want to go. And, um, but again, supported like by a really great team at Fullers., first time round and second time round, you'd like to think there were people that I brought into the team who've gone on to do great things as well, um, which is good., And then I think, again, opportunities could have been quite exciting under the new ownership in 2019. But again, a great friend, uh, in Roger saw an opportunity for me knowing I was from the west country to, to, you know, help out with, uh, hair brewery, uh, on the site where Barthes was based, you know, to get that brewery really up and running, you know, they'd invested a lot of money and it is an amazing, um, brewery. It's actually where I'm sat today. And, um, you know, so that was the, the first task. And then, Roger was, sadly sort of, um, outta the business, um, quite soon, unfortunately, with Ill health. So, uh, you know, then working with the new team at St. Austell through COVID. So all that, that was, that was really tough. Those, those, um, that first year. Yeah. Um, so 18 months, um, For any business, you know, it doesn't matter what size, Anyway, I think, you know, we did sadly lose, uh, Roger, um, in 2020, but, the, the business, um, you know, came through it well, and, you know, again, built, built a new team, uh, here, especially in the, in the brewing, uh, department. And, you know, I, you know, things, things are going well. So it's, um, so it's good. So yes, I have been blessed with mentors along the way, whether they've been official or unofficial. Um, I've also been, had a bit of coaching along the way, which I've never quite know what to do with a coach, if you know what I mean. I think you have to have something, a really specific goal with a, especially if they're external. Um, and see by, you can see my, by my face, I'm screwing up my nose going, didn't, I don't really get, um, but maybe it was just wasn't necessarily the right connections. But, um, so. Yeah. I mean, if that's a. Yeah, some big hitters in there as Hmm And I mean, no doubt, that's on your career about how many people you've helped on their career as well, um, on being a mentor. I mean, I'm a, I'm personally a big fan of having a mentor. I have them in, I had them in mm-hmm. I obviously was internally, Hmm. don't think I've had an external one. And then, you know, with the things that I do now, I, I guess they are external'cause they're not part of my Yeah. But I have people who help me on certain things because I, you know, I always know that there's just so many things you can learn from people. And then I, yeah. But what do you think, actually, from all those people you've had and, and the mentor, the people you've mentored, what do you think are really important traits for some people who are mentoring Oh yeah. I think, um, you know, again, I'm lucky to have connections within the industry who I would reach out to and, and with you. With that, I would say yes. I'd like to think they've been helpful. I. In that mentor capacity when I just sort of said, oh, coaching wasn't sure about that. Those are external people who aren't in the industry. And I, and I think if you are not from our brewing world, it is really hard to understand this. Something that's in your heart, that's in your blood, if you've got it, you know, you're smiling. We, we all have it. But if you're not from that, I think people find it really hard to understand what we are talking about and the degree of passion that comes from making beers, which is what we all, we all do. Um, so yeah, so, but um, so I wouldn't say I have official mentors. There are people. I really value their opinion and I reach out to perhaps on specific subjects, you know, like, um, proper job, 0.5, say, right David Quain, I really need some help here. I want to talk to you. and, um, you know, lucky enough that he'll, you know, have a conversation with me and the team. So I suppose, you know, being lucky in that respect. Yeah. And that's why I also like to try and be able to do that for people within the industry. Um, being from Harriet, what you do try and, um, I. Take on graduates as and when you can, if you have a vacancy or a position, um, or others, um, I think Rob Topham is someone who's, you know, gone on to really great things, uh, from Fullers, you know, Rob was a student when I was a, you know, a young brewer, uh, at Fullers. And, you know, I said, oh, he wanted to have a bit more. I said, well, let's, let's keep you for the year and see how that goes. And, um, and then he came back after he's graduated. Um, you know, so, and people like, Rob's going, you know, it's really great to see how Rob's doing and where he's, where he's got to. Um, but I was, now, I would also phone, Rob, what do you think I should do about this? You know, it, it works both ways, doesn't it? Fergus is another great example who used to work in the lab., At, at, uh, Fullers when I, again, when I was a young brewer and said, oh, you know, you wish you'd be a good brewer. Come and be a brewer. And, you know, and then, oh, there's a job. Go Fable going in, you know, looks quite good. I might go for it, but you'd be really good for it. those kind of things, you know, and now, you know, don't Fergus, someone else had to always phone and say, what do you think about this? Um, I spend a lot of time in the car, so, um, I have a few brewers on hot dial and like, oh God, George, where are you on the M five? I said, oh, I'm just coming back and we'll, we'll talk through whatever's going on or what the latest challenges are. So, um, yeah. That's so good. I mean, that's a, that's emphasizing the power of your network, right? That's, uh, something I think I've spoken about on a few episodes before and when I was going through my career, I didn't quite put enough emphasis on that power of network, which I, I do now. Um, and, and you know, in my line of work, it's so good to have people you can just call to just double check or ask for their solution to a problem and see how they'd approach it. I think it's really refreshing. Yeah. And sometimes people haven't got time and you know, I, I'm the same. Sometimes people might ask me, I say, do you know what? I'll get back to you. Sometimes you forget and then you feel, you feel awful. But you know, if you have got time, and again, I think that goes back to us all wanting to help each other out in this industry, and not seeing us all as competitors and, so. And it's complex, right? There's so many things, especially as when you get to that like director level brewing director or production manager, you've ops, you know, you have to learn and understand so, so much. And not even like the intricacies of brewing, but also, you know how sales work, you already mentioned. You have to have that commercial brain, which is really important for that next step up. And it just, all of a sudden you have to know much about so many things. It becomes quite, I think it's, that's why it's really important to have those people who you can go and lean on when you need to. Yeah, because I don't think, you can be an expert on everything. We, I think as brewers, we do really well with our cross-functionality and our, you know, we're biologists, we're chemists, we're engineers, we're sort of financey, but it's, you know, you have to surround yourself with experts and a good team. And, and, um, yeah, we've got a, a, a packaging guy who's come in from. Uh, Glaxo and I was a bit like, oh, I'm not sure about, wasn't sure about taking him at first, but, you know, actually they do bring such a wealth of experience from other industries. And, um, um, what's my point? My point is, you know, actually relying, you know, relying on those experts around you because you can't do everything. Um, so, you know, that's, but they, he's very surprised. Here's my point, sorry, here's my point. Um, just really surprised that we do share in brewing, and if you want to phone someone up from another brewery, sometimes you might not even know very well and say, could we come and have a look? how are you doing that? And you just reciprocate. So, yeah, Yeah, it's, uh, I always say it's, uh, it is our industry's superpower absolutely. Mm. being able to share.'cause that's how Mm-hmm. quickly and grow so much as an industry, as we just, so Yeah. You know, whenever I speak to external suppliers, they're always like, oh, would you be, do you think they'll be okay with this? And I'll be like, sharing this. I'll be like, they're not only that, they'll be like actively encouraging people to come Um, and look. yeah. completely, yeah, Yeah. completely different. We're showing off in a, in a, like a nice Mm-hmm. And, I mean, yeah. And those, those relationships with malt suppliers and hot merchants, you know, we know the ones we're talking about, you know, they are such friends and they're so technically capable and able, but they help you as well, so. Absolutely did a whole episode on that with Andrew Patterson Alright, Kate? Yeah. yeah, I was really good on like, know your Mm-hmm.' cause it's, uh, their, their level of expertise in that, in that niche. It's really, really good to lean on. So you don't have to necessarily know it all. You can just tap into it when you And challenge it and say to you, okay, you might be the experts in no low yeast and you know, uh, you know, a great example there, but actually what about this, what happens if that goes and tell me how your yeast will perform here, and what if I do the, you know, you, you do have to check challenge them as well. So, um, but yeah. Yes. absolutely. So, Georgie, you mentioned right at the start, you know, you went to the Harriet WA Mm-hmm. What are the, you know, formal or maybe informal training? Training have you undertaken, like throughout your career and which ones have had like, the most impact? I mean, I assume Harriet had a big one on you, Yeah. uh, are there any Now, now Harriet Watt did, and I was a bit unjust in the beginning, wasn't I? But you do, you then come out into reality, into a real brewery and you go, whoa, limey, Okay. How does this. I've learned all about mash filters and suddenly I'm dealing with a little mash tunnel, you know, or it's, um, yeah, putting it into practice is, is really, really important. I think because I took that time outta the brewing industry as well, when the, um, kids were younger to me. Um, then getting my knowledge back up, I, um, completed my, uh, Institute of Brewing Master's program and I'll probably talk about that a bit later on.'cause that just gave me the confidence to go, okay, I need to be able to design lines and, you know, packaging lines and I need to know, you know, work out OES and efficiencies and, I didn't necessarily go back and relearn the Kreb cycle, but, you know, I, it was just, it's just getting, it gave me the confidence to, um, I. To, to carry on and pick up where I left off. I, I still think if I hadn't been out the industry, I'm sure I would be much stronger technically. But again, I surround myself by a really strong team so I don't have to, you know, you can't retain all that knowledge when you are not doing that day in, day out. You know, you have to leave that to, um, to the experts in your team. And I think also, you know, if you think about it, I suppose I was taken on in 99 to, to work through and to be the next brewing director, uh, head brewer at, um, at Fullers. But, you know, so I took time out. Then I came back in. So you, you, and then I moved to St. Nossel where I haven't grown up in that brewery, so I, when I first got to St. Nossel, I thought, I've gotta do shifts. I've got, it's like, no, you don't need to do that. So I'm not giving the person on the shift doing the, um, you know, doing the actual brewing. So once I relaxed into that, um, I, life was a bit easier for me, but I do remember when I did return to the, uh, brewing industry in 2013, going on a tour round, a small brewery, and the head brewer didn't know where the light switches were to turn it off. And I thought, gosh, you obviously don't know your brewery and your process very well. So I've always been never gonna be the head brewer who doesn't know where the light switches are. Um, but I'm going to know, so I, I'll know enough to get by, Fortunately, the light switches are all on sensors these days. However, that's not, that's not the point. I learned an important lesson. And I think that's the thing, isn't it? You've just gotta keep learning your lessons along the way. So, yeah. So I am lucky to have had been supported through the Masters. And also again, at Fullers we had some amazing training, um, at CAS Business School, um, from a, business point of view. Um, so yeah. That's great. I didn't know that that was, uh, it's quite unusual, I think, from my understanding anyway, to see who are getting going into that, head brewer production manager role to go and get external Mm-hmm. um, is not just brewing. Um, but actually that's really powerful. You know, when you were talking then, I was thinking back to, when I was going through, that process my, myself, and it was, I, I kind of realized that. my brain only has a finite amount of things. It can retain and, and almost becomes a disservice to my team if I try and learn every single thing about, let's say the current yeast problem. It's like, it's much better to let someone who has that capacity to do that and I can take a step back and do other things, that the buy the business needs. I really, I learned that,'cause, I couldn't retain everything as much as I would love to be able to. So yeah, it was really, I really like, it, like, felt a lot to me that, Hmm. um, think you, you, how do you it's recognizing that, um, and, you know, relying on the teams, and that's why we have our teams and build teams, and that's, uh, that's really important, so. absolutely. And, part Mm-hmm. as well as yours. Right. kinda like a double edged, I mean, you've, you know, you said you started back in 92, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do you think learning has changed in the industry since that moment to kind of where we are now? I. Yeah, you're right. Actually, 92 93 was when I was at Harriet Watt. So I think it was very, you turned up to a classroom, you took your notes, uh, amazing to, you know, be taught by Jeff Palmer and things like that. But it was all a bit of a whirlwind. You did your essays and you did, you did some practicals, and, and that was it. Whereas I think, also having been a teacher myself, you know, it's much more interactive now and I think, um, I think learning is changing to be much more adapted to what we need as an industry. I don't want this to turn into a sales pitch for the Chartered Institute for Brew and Distilling, but I think what they, they're about to do is really exciting using, um. Lots of digital learning and AI and just, you know, completely break down, um, the master's, uh, module so that it won't necessarily be exam based, because actually we don't do exams. You know, you use portfolios of evidence and, you know, you are dealing with so many different components, project management, finance, sustainability, you know, just again, being able to demonstrate that you've used that in, brewhouse, fermentation, processing, you know, is, is much more valuable as a learning tool than slogging your guts out doing exams, so. Yeah, I mean, I had a big, I agree. And I, a lot of it comes down to how Mm-hmm. Yeah. not, and actually, if you look at a lot of brewers, they're not learning from textbooks. It's not necessarily how that, you know, a lot of people, kinesthetic learners, Yeah. visual learners like to be and Mm-hmm. And I remember when I did my diploma Mm-hmm. and it was just like, at the time, uh, it was like just a block of text and then it was. Here's 10 past Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. what questions Mm-hmm. and then you can try, learn enough to Mm-hmm. And I remember like there was a cell structure of like a barley grain on my wall for like, uh, weeks. And as soon as I finished that, I've got turf. That thing up Okay. And point in my career have I gone, oh, let me help me solve that problem. Let me just draw the cell structure of a, and I was like, it's like what? Like, I dunno. I felt, I fell out with it a little bit just because I was like, would I not just be better off? Spending my time researching like specific problems in the brewery, trying to figure out what's causing them. It was, I was in a very bit, bit of a, um, also, you know, I struggled with it a lot, so I was just probably looking for an excuse of as to Yeah. Yeah. um, I found it really difficult personally. But it's really great to hear, and I remember speaking to someone Mm. about this not that long ago and sharing that same story and they're like, yeah, we recognize that learning has developed itself beyond what Mm-hmm. And we, it's really great to see that they're can do that because I think it's so powerful to have that combination of education and practicality, but it has to be really, they have to marry But' cause I think if they don't, yeah, work. and you're right. And that's also the master's level. You know, I think the diploma is still about learning the technical side, but I think the, COVID drove the tutored guided learning everything online. Um, you know, so I think the material is much more modern and up to date. And obviously we have, uh, a lot of, um, people within our team who do the diploma. Um, in fact, the brewing managers, production managers are all, you know, diploma qualified, um, and. And, they've gone through that teacher guided learning process. So you are, you are talking with other people, um, you know, around the world because actually it's global. And that's what's so amazing about the Chartered Institute bring distilling, so you, you might be in, you know, have a lecturer from South Africa who's, you know, worked in a very different scale, uh, brewery, you know, and then you'll have a couple of people from different all sizes of organizations and you're just bouncing ideas and, you know, question. How would you answer that question from your perspective? So I think it has come a long way already. Um, but I think there's, you've gotta have that technical grounding before you move on to the, to the next stage. So, Yeah. And so how do you, because a lot, you know, a lot of people who listen to this are working in like small to medium breweries. How do, like for them, what would you recommend that they focus on in learning development within their brew team? I think there's two things. I mean. There's so much compliance now within, uh, our industry. So I would definitely say make sure your organization is giving you the right tools to understand risk assessments. You've got enough first aiders fire, that kind of compliance. Um, but for you and your, technical development, if you haven't done anything, I would really try and sort of, um, try and get on the, um, you know, the general certificate or, you know, go and do a course up at, um, brew lab sunderland or, or do something that gives you that technical understanding of why we mash at this runoff, at this rate, why we can't, boil and, you know, all these things. Because I feel in the BRI industry, we do pass knowledge. And process down from one to another. And that goes back to my standard operating procedures, which I think are absolutely critical. Whatever size of organization you've got. So you are all doing it the same. Um, because the malt changes, the hop changes, they change every season. So you are almost, you're dialing it in, aren't you, every year. And then your yeast as well. it's just doing what you, doing what it wants if you don't look after it well enough. So it's, um, so that's why standard operating procedures are so critical when our raw materials are so variable, because even, you have our specifications and I'm sure every brewery does. Um, so I think it's a small brewer. Just, just try and get some reasons why. But, you know, going back to the styles of learning, auditory Learners podcast, you know, again, none of this used to be available, did it? So, um. so, so this is your world and, and other people's world, you know, it, it's really helpful for, for, for everyone learning. So, so small brewers, it's that balance. You've gotta have some compliance, but just try and get something technical. Yeah, it's, it's a really nice point actually on compliance. I probably wouldn't have thought that as the first one. I actually, yeah, completely agree. Especially, fire safety, risk assessments, stuff like that. It's so important on every level.'cause it's, um, it's kind of the be all there people's safety real, It is really, and it's something, uh, I, I suppose I, again, came to me late, if you know what I mean. Um, but you know, it's something really champion now. Um, but then there's also, you know, utilities and water and, you know, there's so much compliance around boilers and all, you are an engineer. It's just like, oh, but so, um, yeah, as well. Uh, yeah. And um, it's funny you mentioned like podcasts and stuff as well. I think that's when I, I used to listen still kind of do sometimes the BAA one, the Master Brewers Mm-hmm. mouthful of the organization, but I actually love their resources. I thought they was so good, so modern as well. Like it's often I was reading those or listening to those podcasts and reading the papers and thinking this is. Exactly the issues that I'm Mm-hmm. today. Um, and that's kind of the good thing to have that balance really between that like, really entrenched technical information and a bit of modern because, you know, things move so quickly in the brewery and in in, you know, in the craft beer world, in all the beer world, it moves quickly. And I thought that the NBAA especially was such a good technical Mm-hmm. when I was there. Yeah. Yeah. Their podcasts are quite good, aren't they? They, they, you know, you've gotta get your ear in 'cause they can be, oh they are, they are quite American and they, they can go on a bit. I loved when they, uh, there was one on, um, my captain, they kept calling Whirlpool Troub Trobe. And I was like, the hell is a TRO me eight. I was like, oh, they mean Trump. And it was really essential information to understand. I was like, they kept saying about getting rid of the tro and I was like, what on earth are they talking about? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had to listen to each one about three times as well.'cause I'm not an auditory learner. But, um, I had to listen to each one like loads of times, but I Mm-hmm. the end. Uh, I thought they're really good. out of interest because I think sometimes, you know, I speak to brewers about learning and development and some people are like, well, you know, the brewery I work at just can't really afford, you know, to put me through the course, or they're struggling, et cetera. But like, where do, who do you think is responsible for learning development? Do you think it's the responsibility of the, of the brewery or do you think it's responsibility the brewery or maybe a mix of both? definitely a mix of both. I think, you know, your company should be offering you some, like I say, some of the compliance and necessary training there. I think, if you want to get on and do something technical, hopefully your brewing company would support you, but I get sometimes they don't, and sometimes it, you know, you might be funding it yourself. There are, um, the odd grant out there again and, um, scholarship, you know, to look out for. Um, so I, yeah, I get that. It, it's hard in a very small brewery and it, so I think that that's want to learn because again, this is all self-study and it's all in your own, you know, majority of it's in your own time. Uh, that has to really come from you as an individual because it's, all these things are a big commitment. So. Yes they And, and. I think I've, I've always been fortunate, know, I, uh, thorn Bridge helped put me through the Mm-hmm. uh, when I did that, I actually loved that exam. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. exam I've ever done in my life. I was reading the material going, I now understand why we're doing everything we're Yeah. Um, exactly as you said earlier, I, you know, I've always seen like brewers who come through the two different Mm-hmm. into the industry. I would say there's probably two clear routes, which is the Harriet Wat or educational route into brewing. And then the. starting the brewery and then learning how to work in a brewery and then trying to, and then applying Mm-hmm. knowledge. Either way. Mm-hmm. always, there's like two route, you either get out, it's just, you said you get out of a Harriett or something and you go like, okay, now I need to work in a brewery. And you've got all this technical knowledge and they're like, but you need to take off a hundred tri clamps today. Like, well, how do I do that? Exactly, because you don't learn that university. So that, that is, You. and that's why I actually think, you still, you still have to go and have that, experience, um, you know, on the brief floor and, you know, and in the cold block and, you know, and go and do that, so. What I'd love to talk about now a little bit, is about brewers today and for someone who's seen and trained and promoted so many people, like how do you spot potential in someone on the brewery floor and what sort of traits do you look for? I think it goes back to, you know, that passion that we were talking about. Um, and I think all brewers have to be able to multitask, don't they? you've got your mash going on. You've got your, your hops, you've always got more than one brew on the go and your fermentations and you're running down to the lab. So I think it's people who, who thrive on that is what, we look for, you know, if it, if. The individual looks like it's all a bit too much like hard work. Well, this might not be for you, touch wood, and, Hmm. but I can imagine that's what I like. Um, but also you'll be able to articulate it, and, and you, if you can't articulate as well what you are doing or the beers that you are making or how you are making it, I think that's then that probably to me also shows you perhaps don't quite understand it as well. Maybe that's me being a bit harsh, but, um, and also, you know, I think we all have to see how it fits into the, the wider industry of hospitality, so, um, so that's a sort of look for in, in, you know, people starting out. Have they got that, that attitude, you know, and I, and we have taken on quite a few apprentices over the last few years at both breweries and we sort of run these assessment days to, and um, we're not always looking for people who've got home brew experience. It's just really looking for that can-do attitude and, you know. Get it right to nine outta 10 times, Um, so, because it's hard work as well, but you know, your hard work is rewarded by that wonderful feeling that you, we've made something that people are going to enjoy, So, yeah, Yeah. One of the best products in the world to absolutely. You know, we're not here for money, but put it that way. But, you know, so, uh, Sadly not. no. So, um, yeah, so it's that passion. That's what you look for. It's that spark, really. And again, you know, going back to the earlier question, people who do want to, to get on now, I know you can't all be, uh, the next brewing director. And I, you know, and I, I felt like that as well for quite a while, So, um, so that's, you know, you do, you want to see people move on, you know, and, and benefit other businesses and things like that along the way. So, um. Like you say, it's all one industry at the end of the day. So, It is. Yeah. Um, and what do you think for a brewer is one of the most underrated skills in um, again, sometimes you wanna say, oh, Excel. But, um, um, so true? I, I, I think I probably, uh, yeah, I probably say just to be able to articulate what you are doing, I've met some very, very clever brewers in my time, but just haven't, I've watched 'em run around like, okay, what are you doing? And they can't quite tell you what they're doing, but, you know, so, so I think to be able to articulate that is, I think is, um, because as I said, you've, you've already demonstrated, you are a biologist, a chemist, a you know, a chemical engineer. You're practical 'cause you are making beer, but you've gotta be able to sort of, Explain that, not just to, to you, the next person and, and, um, we are the greatest salespeople, I think, brewers, so, Um, what do you think are the most effective ways to train people? you, I know you advocate like the formal courses as well, but do you think there's a bit of like, how do you train people on the brewery as well in the brewery as well as that formal education? yeah. I mean, we obviously have, um. Um, it's not a specific train the trainer program, but we know the people who are good at training and we'd probably try and upskill them so that they can pass on that knowledge. Like I said, you know, having a really robust set of standard operating procedures, um, that, don't sit on a shelf, they need to be used, they need to be looked at, you know, um, and written as if you were doing this for the first time. You know, so they are mammoth pieces of work. Um, so, you know, you ha if you are, coming in for the first time, again, it's just being with that slightly more experienced, uh, brewer or packer, you know, to show you the right ways, to also then give you the confidence, um, to be able to make those decisions on your own. But you know, because you'd like to think people are probably standing on their own with the. A month or, or so. You know, it really depends what role they're doing, doesn't it, to be specific. But you know, if you are suddenly a shift brewer on night shift, you know, running the whole of a, it's an Aus brew house, you know, you'd probably take a bit longer than a month, if I'm honest. But, and even if you're in experienced brewer coming in, every brewery is different. So, and it's, we don't always have the luxury of being able to chaperone people, but, and that's why those SOPs are really important. So, um, Absolutely. and some people are better trainers than others. And, and some people find it more natural. And that's why I go back to this sort of, being able to articulate what you're doing is really, really important, and being able to show the benefits of, this is, and, and the nuances of each brewery. If it's an older brewery, you know, why this valve might just have to be turned two and a half times to the left. And, whereas, you know, I mean, it's, it's. Mm-hmm. They are. I think, I think it's such a fantastic point to make the not the best. How do you put, not the best brewer, but not the most technical brewer makes the best trainer. Hmm And I, I think that's commonly, I saw it was like who was the, you know, the smartest brewer technically would be the one doing the training, but actually that. necessarily make you a good trainer, same as like the most, the best brewer on the floor doesn't make the best manager. It's all kind of similar. It's trying to spot and it is so good, like spot the traits in the people where they're good at training it. They don't necessarily have to be the best at that job to be able to train mm-hmm. actually the ability to, be able to exactly articulate. I think it's really, really good. Uh, point a, I really like that. Um, something I've definitely seen throughout career is that is uh, you know, there are people who just have such a special talent for Yeah. and if you can get those people, like that's so Hmm.' cause everyone learns so much quicker and develops quicker. It's really good. Um, so that's probably the main thing we look for. You know? Yes. Being able to use data and interpret that and look at trends and all, you know, again, really, really important, but actually, if you don't then know what to do with it or then can't share it, then well, what's the point of doing it really? So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I, think one of the most finite resources in every small to medium is time. Um, to be honest. I mean, people will argue money, but I think it's, uh, time to be honest is what I always hear is a very most common thing I hear is just, we don't have the time to do this with working full out. It's, it's a, everything's a nice to have outside of getting the Mm-hmm. Um, how do you, about, like how do you get people, how do you give people that time and space in order to do this learning and development? Or do you generally think that people have to do this outside of work, or is this something that can be adopted to inside of work as well? I think obviously you've got the, if you're taking a new member of staff on, and hopefully we don't have to do that too often. Um, but, uh, you know that if you invest that time. You are gonna be more likely to be able to leave them on their own sooner rather than later and get back to your, your own. I suppose it's the external. Um, so let's say you're doing a general certificate, you know it's gonna be about 60 hours of study, you are working in a brewery, so you know a lot of what's going on, but you know, it's still embedding that. Um, so, so a lot of that would be done outside, the expectation really. Um, but you know, we do give people breaks in breweries, you know, and, but if you're in that environment, you know, you can, you can, um, you know, still, uh, still stay on afterwards and, you know, soak up what's going on or go and talk to your colleagues about in areas that you don't necessarily know about. But I think, um, the. The other, training, you know, if we want so many first aiders, you know, we, we, um, you know, we know we have to make time to do that. But you, to me, the benefit, half the benefit of the technical training is actually you get time back because you are then working on right first time principles. So you are then not making as many mistakes, having to, to do blends, make another beer,'cause the color's out or the, you know, the fermentation was slow or, you know, so actually if you are always working on that, that principle of let's get this right first time, um, that, that's a real benefit of doing this training. So you do get a bit of time. So bit of time back, we all know things go wrong and things break, um, and we are lucky that to, to be of a size where we have a dedicated, uh, engineering team. Who are working on planned maintenance, but you know, can help, um, if it's something that's reactive. But again, do we all have the right spares? No, of course we don't. so scrambling around to find them, you know, so you lose time there, don't you? So, yeah, I, I, I agree with your point of time. It's just how do you get more time back and also, uh, try and use it wisely. So, but it goes, Yeah. yeah. you see learning and development as an investment in time management in the future, Hmm. right? and I think, again, it has to come from the individual, and I think the individual has to understand how much of their own time is re is required. So, yes, we will support you as a, as a business, but you know, you have to also put your own time in. So, Hmm. Yeah. Do you think there's any, um, I guess like what, do you have any like training tools that you use, any training systems or routines that you use, in order to help people learn on like a day-to-day or week to week basis at work? I mean that's, um, I mean we do have tools that we, that we bring in. I'm not sure they were training tools. They're probably more, you know, like five y and, you know, systems and little bite size, um, models that we try to make life a bit easier for ourselves. Um, if we look slightly across the business to, you know, at the pubs, inns and hotels, you know, there will be the training going on in there. We do have, um, a, an online learning platform called Thrive. So there would be. Um, training videos on their tasting notes, how to pour a pint, how to look after the seller. So, um, so yeah, so I suppose that is a tool, you know, we're lucky that, that we have, um, and you have standards, um, material that comes with it, like cosh assessments or, you know, um, but you know, we're working on building our own material, um, there. Um, so yeah, I suppose that's, that's probably our biggest, it's also our sort of communications platform across the business. But then if you are a journeyman, you know, you're not, you're not, you are driving or you are loading, you know, you're not sat on your phone looking at your training material, but, you know, everyone will have compliance modules on that, that they need to complete. Um, uh, and something that I introduced again, bought it from Fullers, is every year, at the beginning of January, have a health and safety stop day. So we actually stop and we don't open the pubs, which is quite incredible until after lunch service. Um, and, and in the breweries, we, we take a theme, you know, one year it might be risk assessments, how to do a great risk assessment, and then we'll all go into small groups and do some, or this year actually, everyone had, um, first aid training so that everyone was confident of being able to give CPR, um, you know, so it's, uh, it's a huge investment from the business, but it just goes, you know, how else do you do that? Going back to the time, but the, we've all learned an amazing skill, but we, you know, and some people have already saved lives, which is just phenomenal. So it's an amazing story and, um, uh, a thing that, that, that business is committed to do, which is fantastic. Yeah, that's really cool. And then when you, you know, when you put it like, oh, and some people have gone away and save lives puts into context like, probably slightly more important than producing a morning's worth of beer. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about, you know, the first January in, you know, the first Monday in January where people aren't really in the pubs. But yeah, one of our sales team, she had to perform CPR on her mother and she said, if I had not learned that at our health and safety stop day the year before, she said my mom wouldn't be here. And that was really powerful for us as a business. And I think in the, in the pubs, you know, actually there's not quite a lot of this, but you know, we, we, we fundraise and we have defibrillators in the pubs, um, because unfortunately, um, it, it's something that happens too often. So, anyway. Well, we digress a bit from brewing, but again, those are, they're still sort of examples of training and maybe where, I suppose Hmm. it's both types of training that I think. I would say one needs to focus on, so. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And again, know, we get in our little, uh, beer bubble Hmm. in the. The importance of getting beer out the right quality, the right thing, and then sometimes it's there. Things are just slightly more important than that. And, uh, that's actually an amazing story. It's, uh, really cool to hear. Um, yeah, I really like that. Uh, again, just puts things in perspective, lets you zoom out a little bit, which can be quite powerful. Um, as a, as a, as a personal tool. Sometimes I find, um, I'd love to now talk a little bit about the future of Mm-hmm. and, or not future of brewing, but the future of learning in brewing. Uh, and, we talked, we briefed over maybe a little bit about how the CIBD is gonna involve new tools. Um, ai everyone's wanting to introduce this now, but how do you think these things are gonna impact the learning for a brewer? I think, you know, I think hands-on brewing is always going to be the biggest learning tool that, that we have, because, um, breweries all, I, I can't ever see a brewery being fully contin, going back to continuous fermentation and being run by bots. You know, it's always gonna have an, uh, human input, isn't it? So I think when we talk about ai, I think it's about using that, um. Those, those platforms, um, to enable to people, to access materials and to be able to update, um, learning materials and share experiences about much more. And I think, uh, the, you know, chartered Institute, just, there's two things with being chartered. There's um, just the continuous development of professional development, which I, you know, I'm really excited about because, you know, I haven't, you know, done the traditional learning for a while. So, you know, keeping up there with what's going on and breweries being able to share and using AI to be able to share their own experiences, you know, and I think the, the, um, you know, the new CIBD has definitely gone out and talked to customers and cus you know, and brewers, what do you want? Rather than back in the sort of sixties, seventies, this is what we're going to teach and this is what you're going to do. You know, going back to your point of view, must learn to. be able to draw a barley grain and be able to tell the peric carp and the, the endosperm and blah. So, um, um, so I think that's really very exciting. Um, and I think, again, with the masters breaking it down into those components that whether you are a small brewery, you know, leading that or you know, on your way, um, up the ladder in a, in a larger organization, being able to demonstrate all those components that we have to do. You've got your technical knowledge, you know, as you and I talked about you, your brain is full of all this stuff, but it actually, you are then having to apply it through project management, through finance, through sustainability methodology. Um, you, uh, I can't believe, you know, and we talk about excel and skills and data, you know, looking at data and all of that, you know, and being able to demonstrate that and then really. Perhaps even specializing in particular areas of the brewery. You know, 'cause not everyone does the whole, supply chain from raw material into final pack, into warehouse. You know, you might actually be focusing, you know, just in, in brewing, you know, and, but going into a deeper level. So I think, um, so I think that's where technology and learning will be able to, to, to be able to, to help us all. So it's, it's a bit more self-select rather than you all have to do everything. Yeah, that'd actually be really good. Think about it like that. That'd be really cool if you could almost pick your specialty and, uh, instead of yeah, trying to learn everything all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And I just a question 'cause about the master brewers, um, does that, so you were mentioning earlier, is that more to do with how to run a brewery rather than to like, problem solve or become a better technical brewer? How's that act? How does the master brewers actually look? I've obviously never done it Um, I think it's, um, you know, I think it's all gonna be launched quite soon, but I, I think it would, I think it will offer something for all of those roles that you just talked about, whether you are in technical, whether because not everyone is going to end up as a, you know, a head brewer or a, um, True. you know, it's again about taking those components in the areas of the process, you know, the brew house, fermentation, processing, packaging. Um, then you've obviously got the supply chain that, you know, we all deal with quite a lot as well. You know, we've got the suppliers and the raw materials. Uh, but like you say, specializing, you know, is your specialty sustainability, for example. So you might then choose to go deeper on sustainability in those, in all, in all those areas. Um, and. have more access to the, be able to create a portfolio of evidence, especially if you are working for different, different breweries, so it makes it a lot more accessible. Um, Yeah, so, uh, so yeah, what watch this space, I think it's gonna be really, really exciting. So. And that would also, could, I also assume that I would apply to, say size of brewery, but um, you know, there's a big, there is a clear difference on how a macro brewery approach is making beer compared to a craft brewery. Right. That I think for me, there's a, there is a difference there. I mean, there are a lot of similarities, but I think there's a, there's a pretty big difference. And the problems that are faced in a, uh, macro brewery are often not the same problems that are faced in, um, a Mm-hmm. medium Mm-hmm. for example. So would that level of customization also be able to, so someone who just cares about that small to medium sized craft brew and has no aspiration to, technically be or understand what a macro brewery does, but would they be able to also specify that, do you Yes, I do. And I think because actually it's going to be about giving, uh, portfolios of evidence. And I think, you know, it's not gonna be about going into an exam room for three and a half hours, you, it will be more like open book questions so you can then, if there is a, question based on a brewery that's a different size to use any, having the, you know, um, time to go and find out about it. And it is very much about having mentors around the, around the industry, and um, and I think that will be a really good partnership. And this is where the professional development that, and the short courses and things like that. And the technical meetings that the CIBD will be offering will also support the learning, not just through the Masters, but diploma as well. So I, yeah, like I said, it is turning into a sales pitch really, isn't it? But I think it's, it's, um, you know, the reason I've got involved with institute is again, because I feel strongly about training and Yeah. it bene, it was such a benefit to me coming back into the industry, having had some time out. Um, so just making, like I say, it's, it is about modernizing it and making it more relevant to today's world because we are all, there is discrepancies between our size of organizations and, compliance, you know, when oh, legislation, let's not go there in EPR and all sorts of, you know, and, waste management and, you know, card and bottles, you know, it's, but Hmm. it's, uh, yeah, there's a lot going on. It's also really exciting just because, you know, I think, I said, when I was in going through my learning, um, and development through the, the technical side, I really, as I said, I really, really, I really, really struggled with it just because of the way it was doing. It's so great to hear that it's changing and, and, you know, becoming more customizable, I would guess, because, you know, we talked about earlier in the way you learn and how important that is to, not necessarily how much you learn, but the speed that you learn it at. Um, and yeah, that's really, really great to hear actually. And you know, it's not gonna be, there's also plenty of other things that people are already doing in their own time that can, that can help with this. Um, there's already resources, AI tools that you could use now that can also help you with learning. I will. Definitely caveat. You gotta be careful with chat, GPT. Um, I've, uh, I think I've read this. One of my favorite things I've ever read about chat, I use it Okay. by the way, for many things to do with work. So I'm not like, I think it's an amazing tool, but it's, uh, it's when you're a specialist in the subject and you ask chat GPTA question, you find that it's nearly always wrong. But when you don't, a specialist in the subject, you ask chat bt and you take it as Yeah, that's a good, yeah, It's so yeah, because I, every time I put something in, I'm like, that's actually not right about yeah, And I'd be like, yeah. and I'll just ignore it. But it's so Yeah. but I think it has a lot of, lot of things it can do and, and Mm-hmm. your learning and development up on Yeah. as well. I think it's, uh, you know, I recently used it for actually, which I thought, I dunno if this is really that useful, but, I had to change. I'd never seen this Mm-hmm. life. I was working in a. Helping this brewery out. And I had to change and, uh, the engineer was away so people didn't understand how to change some of the set points. And I got given like A-A-P-D-F of the, of the, uh, manual and it was, you know, 300 pages long load languages. I just put in chat GPT and said, how do I change the settings? And it was like, just do this, do this. And I was like, what's the password? Because they always say hide the password in those things so difficult. And like 30 seconds later, train the password. I was like, oh, it's putting really useful. I wish I had that because always before it was like, I'll tell you what the worst, the flow meters we used to have. And they were, oh, the change, the things of flow meter. It was like a 45 minute like Yeah, adventure. And I was like, this is a really easy way of saving time here. and, and and like you say, it's sharing examples like that really good. we made a recipe last year using chat, GPT, and and actually. Nah, I would, I would, you know, I'd get it to do some scheduling and things like that, fine. But actually I, I still think, you know, recipes probably need to come from our, because it doesn't necessarily know the balance, how it's gonna perform in your brew house, So, um, yeah. Of course. So it it wrote you a recipe Yeah. I think we said we've got this. Yeah. We gave it some standard ingredients and I didn't actually do it. It was, um, uh, our technical brewer actually. And, uh, yeah, we made a 10 barrel batch and it was, um, it was called Brew by Robots. Yeah. I did not know. That's so cool. But I don't, I don't see us using it for that. I think your example was far more useful, so, uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean it's, um, yeah, it was interesting. I funny that you said it, mentioned it earlier, 'cause I can't remember, think when went down and had anchor on, uh, we talked about Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. a fully automated AI driven. Brewery. Mm, And it's like, it's a crazy mm mm isn't it? Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I don't think we're gonna get that far. No. No. I just don't think, yeah. It's probably not worth it for people.'cause the level of things, the decisions you have to make in a day or the team have to make in a day is so big, isn't it? Right. So it's really difficult to, you would think to automate that, but interesting. it might be fine if you're starting off with a brand new brewery, but when your brewery's 175 years old and everything's grown organically and, you know, you, you are kind of, you are still quite manual in certain areas and interfacing. I don't think it's gonna work. yeah. I mean, I think prereqs it has to be, yeah, you're right. It has to be a brand new built brewery for that entire purpose to do it. I'm sure some of the, some of the macro breweries are looking at And I'm sure some, sure. Some of the tech people are as well, so, um, there we go. Yeah. Imagine walking into Booth that didn't have a hu like a human being operating. It'd be Well, I, I really believe the beer would not be tasting any good because everyone who works in this industry is a, an amazing character, and that's why we have beers. This is what, Mr. Keeling always used to say, you gotta have lots of characters to make characterful beer, especially cask, so, I Hmm mm-hmm. that's really good that, yeah. so I'm gonna have, uh, just a few quick fire Okay. here, George. Um, these make great social media content. That's probably why they're here. Okay.' cause I have a marketing guy who constantly harasses me to do these things. So that's what we're gonna Okay. something for the team, for the marketing team. Um, we have to do that every week, right? Um, so, uh, what do you think is one skill that every new brewer should learn early, How to do a gravity. perfect. Love these quick fire. This I was gonna originally say go and work in the whole, in the lab. And I do think that is really, really important. But if you can't take a gra, if you can't take a gravity, we're screwed really, aren't we? Yeah, it's true. Yeah, I Yeah. in the lab is great as well. Understanding qu have a lab, like spending as much time in there with the results and how you got there. I think it's Yeah. That's, to me, I, I truly love doing, um, your favorite brewing book? I am gonna show my age now and say Huff Briggs and Stevens, because they are, they are part one and part two, they are still just fantastic reads. But you, if you, you, you learn how to grow, uh, draw a barley grain by looking at them, but I, yeah. thing is what, what's the most common mistake people make? And answer it with a barley grain. I've really on, in on. But if you are not, if you're not in the industry and you're not really, I'd probably say, 'cause he's in our hearts at the moment. It's Martin Cornell's, um, Amber Golden Black Book is a great book. I haven't read that. Yeah. I thought I'd read a lot. That's great. Okay. I'm gonna read that. It's going on Okay. Um, what do you think is the most common mistake brewers make when training other brewers? Um, passing on bad techniques. Passing on shortcuts. Yeah. Not following the standard operating procedures. Not following the SOP yet. the SOP says do it like this, but I'm gonna show you a Yeah. Because I've been here two minutes and I know better. Yeah. So yeah, you can always say why, you can always, as a Uber say, why did we do that? And they should be able to explain why and articulate why, but. So, Yes. Why do we do it yeah, absolutely. important question in, in brewing, and maybe life is why absolutely. Yeah, Um, this one doesn't have to be quite as quickfire, uh, but you want, if you could redesign how we train brewers in the uk, how would you do that? that's a really hard one actually. And I was thinking about this because every brewery is different, which makes all our beers different, which makes us have this choice, which makes us have this amazing industry. So how do we train everyone to be the same? So I suppose it, you know, we have to, but the principles are the same. So I think you have to start with understanding. I. The principles. And if you are completely new to it, yes, you go back to what's the carbohydrate, what's the protein, Mm-hmm. uh, what's the fermentation? You know, but I, I think, and I, and I do think that's why, where technical training does have, um, the benefits, of, of having that standard text to be able to give us those, those basics. So Hmm. Love that. Um, George, so is there anything else you'd like to talk about here about learning development? Anything I haven't quite covered with you? I don't think so. I think, you know, I've rambled on and for long enough, you know, I think, um, yeah, we are responsible for all our own training, aren't we? I think. Yes. Um. You know, it's in our own gift to just to push ourselves where we wanna go really. So, um, and hopefully ones the companies we work for will support us through, um, by us. that's my little, my little motto there. So Mm. Yeah. And I like the sharing of resources amongst the team and everything as well. I think like, you know, if you find, we always used to do that when someone found a really good podcast on the NBA or a really good episode, like it wouldn't become their knowledge, they share it with Yeah. It make, makes us all stronger as a team, doesn't it? Share sharing, um, uh, sharing that knowledge and, um, yeah, and just cont you know, we are inquisitive people. I think brewers are, we try different beers. We want to know why things are made. How, how those raw materials, what's that new hot taste like, So I think, and just, you know, going to the great industry events that, that, that happen, you know? So, um. You know, and being together, I think it was at Seba last year, it must been one o'clock in the morning, and I met, we had a, um, one of our marketing team were there and we, I think I must have bumped into Rob and Thorn Bridge and before, you know, we are talking about, I don't know, hop extract. And then I could just look at, I looked at her and I thought, we, I just said, I'm sorry, we just don't switch off. We don't know how to switch off, so, yeah, Yeah, because it's a thing of passion, right? It's, yeah, yeah. uh, yeah. It's like a, yeah, I was, yeah. I really like that. Um, so George, if there's, are people, okay, I'm gonna ask you to actually quick, quickly, off air. Um, are people to get in touch with you or is that, I mean, I heard how many emails you get a of course they are, and I will try and get back, back to you, but yeah. Okay. I will, I will ask that question then. I just wanna make sure I put that in there. I was like, well, I mean, would, does everyone wanna listen to it? It's not like 10,000 people listen That's fine. Of course I will help and I will appoint them in the right direction, mainly if the Chartered Institute brewing distilling, but, um, so, but, uh, take a look. Yeah, so of course, Chris, thank you. No problem. Um, I'll put something in the show notes so, um, people can get in contact with you should they have any questions or comments or feedback. But you just so, so much George for coming on. Uh, I really, really appreciate it and I know how many people, I say this all the time and I know how busy everyone is. So, um, I really appreciate taking the time out to, your wisdom and experience with everyone and I think it's absolutely apt that you were doing that on an episode about learning and development. Thank you, Chris. I think it's just, thank you again so, so much. Well, what an absolute privilege that was to have George on the show. Uh, for anyone who's listening. We also have it on, uh, YouTube as well, so you can watch it, share it, please, amongst your colleagues. Friends, we were talking about sharing knowledge and sharing things that you enjoy. So if you did enjoy the episode, please, please, please share that with your team, friends and colleagues. Uh, really appreciate you listening, the latest episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast, and I will see you next time.