From Music to Management with Dr. Gabe Giordano

Join Dr. Amy Taylor Bianco and special guest Dr. Gabe Giordano on this episode of Leader Lounge as they delve into the world of leadership, personal growth, and transformation. Dr. Giordano shares his unique journey from his passion for music to his successful career in technology and business education. They discuss the evolution of leadership skills in the digital age and how important it is for leaders to connect with their teams on a personal level. Dr. Giordano emphasizes the value of understanding people and their motivations, particularly in the current landscape where remote work and online interactions have become the norm. From music to technology, this insightful conversation uncovers the common thread of adaptability and continuous learning that underlies Dr. Giordano's journey and leadership philosophy. Tune in to gain valuable insights into leadership, education, and personal growth in today's dynamic world. 

For more information about the Ohio University MSM Program, click this link!

Check out the Robert D. Walter Center for Strategic Leadership program here.

OnBrand Podcast Studios produced this episode. Special thanks to Audio Engineer Alex Winnenberg, Producer Nick Winnenberg, and Marketing Specialist Cori Stokes.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:15

We're here at the Leadership Lounge in the Robert D. Walter Center for Strategic Leadership in the College of Business, and particularly today focused on grad programs. We have our guest, Dean Gabe Giordano, who is our Associate Dean of all of our graduate programs, and he's here today to speak with Nick Winnenberg, our co-host, and myself, Amy Taylor Bianco.

SPEAKER_03: 0:39

Dr. Amy Taylor Bianco. Dr. Amy Taylor Bianco. You keep doing that. You have to have pride in it.

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

All right, doctor.

SPEAKER_03: 0:45

Amy Taylor Bianco. There we go. You got it. Here we are. Fantastic. And I just have to say, you have the most Italian name I've ever heard in my entire life.

SPEAKER_00: 0:52

Well, thank you. I've got the name, but that's about it. It's been a while back in family. I like it. Other than loving pizza, that's about all I

SPEAKER_03: 0:59

have. I mean, I feel like they collaborate. That's fantastic. So what's brought you to this position so far?

SPEAKER_00: 1:05

It's been a long journey to Ohio University, but I feel like this is where I finally settled down. I've fallen in love with this place. I kind of stumbled here. It wasn't my goal to find Southeast Ohio, but I think I found something amazing. It's a hidden jewel that a lot of us believe in. And once you end up here, I think a lot of people know how amazing it is. But no, I just ended up here through some connections. I lived overseas for a while. I wanted to come back to a college town. That's really what my dream was as far as life went. And I had some connections that told me about Ohio University, the timing was right and ended up here and fell in love with it again.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39

I think you picked the quintessential college town. I think when you look at college town, the dictionary is just a picture of Athens.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46

Absolutely agree, yeah. So where were you overseas? I was in Spain and Barcelona for a few years. That was my first job as a professor, actually, and it was just a crazy opportunity, one I couldn't turn down, really. So I had an opportunity to work at a top international business school, expand my horizons a little bit. Everyone else had to convince me that was the right thing to do because that's a big jump, and it wasn't a goal before that. But an opportunity arose, and so glad I did it in the end. And where were you before Spain then? I was in Florida before that. I'm originally from New Mexico, so I'm from the southwest. You have gone everywhere, isn't that cool? Yeah, so it's been a long, almost full circle here.

SPEAKER_03: 2:21

Yeah, it really has, oh my gosh, including in ocean travel. So looking at your experience, what's made OU different? What makes it special to you?

SPEAKER_00: 2:30

That's a great question. And again, this is the place I've really fallen in love with, so I do think there's some really special things here. One, I think it's the students. We have very real students here. Everyone genuinely wants to come here to learn and become someone better. I don't think we have people here because they're kind of just pushed to be here or forced to be here or here just for some other reason that someone's convincing them of. I think our students genuinely want to be here, and that's the most important thing. And then on the other side, we have some of the most caring professors I've ever seen. We're still a national university, a balanced university, an R1 university where research is a big deal in addition to the teaching and programs and everything we have. Yet, even though we have that focus and that excellence on that side, we also have the most student-focused professors at that level I've ever seen. And I just, I love that. I love teaching. I love learning. That's the real reason I want to be in higher ed.

SPEAKER_03: 3:24

So it's the people. It's the teachers, it's the students, it's the faculty, it's the staff. It's

SPEAKER_00: 3:27

the culture that makes it a beautiful place. You could sum it up as saying It's the people, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 3:31

Yeah, but I mean, looking at, it's also a beautiful environment. I know that kind of plays your hobbies

SPEAKER_00: 3:34

too, right? Yeah, yeah. So I'm an outdoor person. I love to trail run. I love the forest. We're surrounded by it here. So, you know, I saw that when I first came here and I was like, yeah, I could deal with this. I can stay happy outside of work as well. So yeah, I love our location. Southeast Ohio is a hidden jewel. As a trail runner, that's actually one of the up and coming scenes here. It is. You know, outside of the university, which is almost everything else here.

SPEAKER_03: 3:57

And I remember when I was here as an undergrad, mountain biking was just then at that point becoming like a thing. And I think that was when the mountain biking club was established, Lorain Yards. So it does have that unique environment that most universities don't have. Not many places can say you're nestled in the foothills of Appalachia and you walk outside and it's beautiful and sunny on a Friday morning. It's a pretty unique scope and perspective.

SPEAKER_01: 4:17

And you also both have in common that you fell in love here. You met your wife here.

SPEAKER_00: 4:24

Was yours a Dr. D's course as well? Yeah, so I met my wife here. My wife is a double graduate from here, so And actually, I do often tell that as part of the story of why I fell in love with this place so much too, is falling in love with someone that loves this place so much, only makes you love it more, right? You know, so my wife, yeah, she got her undergraduate here, she got her master's here, and she's had almost her whole professional career here. She's a university fundraiser.

SPEAKER_04: 4:45

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 4:46

And just genuinely loves this place. And seeing that and, you know, hearing her stories, meeting her, you know, now I've become friends with all her classmates who are graduates of here back in the day.

SPEAKER_03: 4:55

And they're all still networked at a university. Yeah. Because it's sticky. Like, it becomes a part It's part of who you are. It's that connection point.

SPEAKER_00: 5:01

Oh, absolutely. And I mean, that's one of the other great things about this place. I think because the people in the community is so great, it never leaves you, Ohio University. Once you're here, it's as much as any other school I've ever seen. It stays a part of you. And you really stay, you know, you retain that love and that connection.

SPEAKER_03: 5:17

I love

SPEAKER_00: 5:18

that. So I've embraced that through her as well.

SPEAKER_03: 5:20

No, I love that. And I'm not sure I always tell the story. So this is not the first time for the audience. But I was actually dating my now wife when I was in Dr. B's course. As an undergrad. As an undergrad. We were trying to hide it. And we were like, sit next to each other, but don't like flirt or anything. And how long did it take you to figure it out?

SPEAKER_01: 5:35

It didn't take me too long.

SPEAKER_03: 5:37

It was the first And I

SPEAKER_01: 5:38

can't remember who I said it to. I think I said it to you. I might have said it to Remy. Like, good idea. Oh, thank

SPEAKER_03: 5:45

you. I appreciate that. But I mean, I do think it's a very, it's unique in that perspective. It's a magical place. And it attracts people together. Like, people that go to OU should be at OU. It's something that's just built into the core part of it.

SPEAKER_00: 5:58

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03: 5:58

But I look at more of the professional side. From the graduate perspective, you're the person that we can really talk to and kind of dig in what's that program look like. And before this interview, you mentioned something I want to hit on, and that's we used to be so focused on undergrad with College of Business, but you're starting to see that change. Can you kind of walk me through what's changed?

SPEAKER_00: 6:13

Yeah, and I would say we've already seen it change, you know, really, but that was the last big shift we went through as a college. You know, and maybe that started, you know, plus or minus 10 years ago, you could say. You know, we saw an opportunity to grow on a side that we just hadn't focused on before. You know, we were always very student undergraduate focused, right? You know, And we did great with that, you know, and I think that's what led to OU's success for, you know, 100 plus years, right? You know, well over 100 years. But, you know, there's a whole new world, you know, and more and more higher education has shifted towards continuing education, right? Once you become a professional, really setting you up for that next stage or that career shift, especially in business, that had become a big thing. So, you know, at the same time we were thinking about getting into graduate education, online was becoming a bigger thing. So we were able to position ourselves kind of at a key transformational point in the market, and we did very well. So we really grew a lot of programs in an online format, and it's become a big part of who we are. I think, in my view, it's become half of what the college is now. So we're a very balanced college at this point.

SPEAKER_03: 7:18

That's amazing. And I think what's unique about the online program as well is when I was originally looking at it, my concern was I wasn't going to have the network. I'm a big networker. That's like my key to success is just meet and talk and have those conversations. But it's still there. And especially with that online program, with the firesides, with different programs, with the group projects, with all that stuff, you still build those tight relationships. From your perspective, was that by design, watching kind of how it's matured? Or is that something that's just kind of happened?

SPEAKER_00: 7:43

Absolutely. So I mean, I think the key decisions that were thought about as we thought about moving into the graduate space and the online graduate space, because that was such an opportunity and a shift that was happening again at that time. We also didn't want to forget who we are. We are strategic. We're a business college. We understand. You have to leverage your strengths, really retain your character and who you are with what you do and new offerings. And we realize part of who we are is, again, we're very connection-focused, what we started saying. We're very student-focused as teachers and professors. How can we do that online? So we built in a number of elements to make sure we didn't forget that, making sure almost every online student comes here once or twice and really has a chance to connect with each other, to connect with their professors, to connect with the larger Bobcat network, making sure we still provide alumni resources and opportunities to connect while you're in the program and after, making sure that you still have opportunities to look and feel like the spirit of our campus, which is such a special part of who we are. So those are absolutely a big part of who we are. And that was a very conscious decision.

SPEAKER_03: 8:44

That was the best response to a podcast question I think I've ever gotten. So well done on that podcast question.

SPEAKER_00: 8:49

Well, it means a lot to me, that area. So it was the perfect question. Did you

SPEAKER_03: 8:53

prepare that in the show? I did not prepare you going into this, and that was a fantastic answer. But looking at the MSM program specifically, and that's kind of where my heart and soul is, because that's the program I'm currently in. I know the MBA program is incredible. It's world class. What was so unique about the MSM program was the idea that it was stackable certificates, and you kind of picked your own adventure. Was that a cognizant decision when you were looking at the program and how it kind of developed from the graduate perspective?

SPEAKER_00: 9:15

So that's a theme we have across our offerings, including the MBA, is we want all our offerings to be personalized. We want them to differentiate our students and our graduates, right? Everyone to come out really with a degree that's tailored to who they are, where they want to go, you know, their strengths or their areas that they're trying to improve as well. So we offer specializations in everything, but the MSM is the ultimate example, right, of highly customizable or almost, you know, 100% customizable set of focuses or areas. areas that you specialize in. So in the MSM, not only that, we have some of our most trending areas represented in there. So you can really create unique combinations, trending skill sets like analytics, and come out a unique person that's really with a skill set that's tailored to deep down who you are.

SPEAKER_03: 10:09

I love that. And I think that looking at something that President Stuart Gonzales said earlier in an interview that we had a conversation with was focusing around themes instead of individual courseworks and competencies. And that being a different point is kind of what you're hitting on too. It's saying with the MSM program, I can say I want to go after HR and analytics to identify how is AI going to impact the workforce environment. Or saying I want to go after sales and data analytics so I can be a better database storyteller. All those stuff, it's a formulation, it's a conglomeration of those different skills that give you the competencies to focus on what you care about. I mean, I have never seen a different program like that, so thank you for your part in that, in developing that.

SPEAKER_00: 10:50

Oh, we love it, and we know it's, It's where the world is going, right? There's more and more niche specializations, and we wanna help set students up for that. We also want students to be able to do what they're passionate about, right? And not just have to generalize across the board. We think we're where the market is, where the jobs are, but also where students' interests are nowadays.

SPEAKER_03: 11:11

What kind of questions you got, Dr.

SPEAKER_01: 11:12

B? Yeah, that really hits with something else President Stuart Gonzales said is about finding your passion and leading from your passion, which I think is really interesting, especially for leaders like yourself. You're talking about sort of the passion, the belonging that happens. And it's something to think about as you go higher up, because a lot of times we just want that job. We want that job. And we were mentioning we're we're really good at helping people get that job, particularly in, well, in undergrad, but particularly in grad programs. You've got us really well set up that way. But what are some of the skills that you're seeing that people need beside that? You know, you're coming from the AIS side. Like, what kind of skills are you seeing, you know, graduates, masters level, you know, skills that are needed in the market?

SPEAKER_00: 12:06

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, we've already hit on it a couple times because this is, you know, the hottest universal skill set right now of the moment, I think, analytics. So understanding how to leverage data in any job. Every job now leverages systems that are collecting data. There's opportunities to analyze that data, to better understand our employees, to better understand our work areas, to better understand our businesses overall. No business does that well enough right now. So there's a need for every employee to understand that more, to be able to make better data-driven decisions. So I think that's a great addition to any area. One of the great examples is HR. There's a big push now to better understand people based on the data they produce in their jobs. That's one of the areas we're most behind in still, and there's so much opportunity to bring that into every business. But on top of that, what else do I think matters? I think more than ever before, people skills matter. So I think understanding HR and HR fundamentals, understanding leadership fundamentals, particularly post-COVID. That's what businesses say they're struggling with right now is people management, people attitudes in general. People are struggling in a lot of ways. So I think professionals and up-and-coming managers and leaders that show they focus on people, they understand people at a deep level, as well as maybe having a hard skill set in another area, that's attractive.

SPEAKER_01: 13:29

That combination. And we're going into a weekend where you have students on campus, right, thinking about some of those things. So could you tell us just a little bit about the Leadership Development Conference, just the general idea of what it offers for our graduate students?

SPEAKER_00: 13:43

Yeah, so the Leadership Development Conference is one of the special things that we do that truly is part of who we are and our culture and our attitude here. And number one, I think it's about bringing the community together, right? Again, we want to make sure that's a key part of Every Bobcat, no matter what program, what format they're in, where they live most of the time, we want to give them chances to connect and really see that love and strength that's part of our community. So when it brings them together, it brings them together with us. It's a chance to build that sense of I'm part of something bigger and this is something that's going to be a part of me and a network I'm going to be part of for the rest of my professional career. But also, they focus on particular trends in leadership that matter on top of some of the basic learning you do. So right now, again, We're focusing on the people part of management and leadership this week. So focusing really on development and training and really understanding others more than yourself in some ways and having that attitude as a leader. So it's one of those things that an attitude really that we want people to be inspired with. And regardless of what area they work in or what they do or what type of business they focus on. Again, this is something that can make a difference right now.

UNKNOWN: 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:55

I love that. And I think the first LDC I attended was the data-driven leader. And a lot of it was database storytelling. And I used that. And for me, I can't use a buzzword, too, which I probably shouldn't. But I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm a great data-led storyteller. Everyone's like, wow, what a great thing to say, right? So if nothing else, it exposes you to what's changing, what's happening in the market. And it gets everyone together, which I think is such a great important, because it shows on the campus. So do you think the LDC, what do you think the future is? Have we started picking the next trends, et cetera?

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

Well, I think that's something we don't want to picked too far ahead, right? So we purposely kind of select that. We think, hey, what is the world struggling with right now, right? What's one of the biggest issues that every business wished they could attack in a smarter way? And we want our graduates to be on top of that, to be aware of that, to be ready to talk about it, you know, to have that be a part of who they are and, you know, what they're able to bring to the table right away in their next job or their current job.

SPEAKER_03: 15:49

I love that. Another benefit of bringing everyone together is it exposes us to local business and organizations. I know that we met at the PassionWorks event last year or six months ago or whatever the last LTC was. And what an amazing organization to be able to showcase with that. So do you see graduate students come to campus for this kind of stuff and want to give back and want to get involved? I mean, it's a sticky place for a lot of people. I'm sure it's contagious, right? Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 16:11

yeah. I mean, part of our mission is we want Bobcats to be someplace that make the world a better place. You know, not just that succeed personally. Yes, no doubt. I mean, that's what we're trying to set everyone up to do. But deep down, again, we're community focused. I can't say it enough. And we want everyone to want to make their communities better, you know, within their teams, within their organizations, within the larger groups and cities they're part of as well. So, yeah, we do try to build that into our students. We try to give them opportunities to see the power of that and the value of that through little things that are part of extra activities at these conferences, too.

SPEAKER_03: 16:45

Oh, I love that. Well, thank you for designing. It's had such a huge impact from the student perspective of it, too. Outside the student, the other aspect of the people equation that makes Ohio so special is looking at the faculty, the staff that we have here. And I know that you and Dr. B have collaborated quite a bit, but walk me through the experience of how the center pulls people together.

SPEAKER_00: 17:01

Well, I mean, the center is really one of our points of pride and excellence and really one of our differentiators in the college. So our centers are really where we see we want to have some of our students top outside-the-class experiences that really make our students better in key ways and, again, differentiate them from the standard students from any other business school. So our centers are very focused on giving students experiences, real hands-on experiences that relate to the stuff they're learning in the class but also are very real-world and a lot messier than what you might read out of a book or what you might read in a case. So the Leadership Center is... A perfect example of that where we connect students to real leaders. visit a number of real settings and really see, hey, this is leadership in action. This is what it means to actually try and carry some of this out. They get to practice some of these things in their own organizations, some organizations of some of our top students, and really learn what it's like to lead a group of top students that can really make a difference. So you add those things together, and these are some of our most successful students that really embrace what they can do through the center.

SPEAKER_03: 18:12

I love that. And I think just looking at the professors and the team that I worked with, both undergrad through graduate, I have legitimate, I can say this, and I'm not just saying this, I've never had a bad professor. I've had a hard professor that has beat me up a little bit, but at the same time, they've never been bad. And that's one of the things that's by design. When you bring in so many good collaborative workforces into one area, it makes sense for the student. Yeah. So

SPEAKER_01: 18:36

tell us, Dr. Giordano, I know we've known each other for a long time, but I'd like to kind of hear back to your interests, like your kind of burning passion that led to your PhD and then to your research.

SPEAKER_00: 18:49

Sure. Well, my background couldn't have been any further or more unexpected than where I ended up. So my background was music. Yeah, I went to college on a music scholarship, a performance music scholarship. So yeah, the last thing you would expect from a techie professional, which is what I ended up becoming before becoming an illustrator. But that was my initial passion. That's where I was kind of shepherded to go based on my performance. And I had some opportunity there. I had a college scholarship again. I loved it. I did that for a couple years, and then I started to do what a lot of students do in their sophomore year, look at what's after college, and it didn't look great in music. There isn't a lot of opportunity. It's a really hard profession to make it in long term. So I got realistic, and I thought, okay, I can always have music. I can always do that on the side. But where is there actually opportunity? This was the dot-com era when everything was going online. I thought, hey, that's where there's opportunity. That's actually really interesting. I love what I see. Could I get into it? I didn't even own a computer at the time. I took a bunch of summer courses just to try and see if I could do things. Learned I could do things. I could take on a techie area. Anyone can, I think, if they're into it and driven. And switch gears completely. You know, so I always kept music as a passion, a side hobby. I still performed in groups in college. But went into the College of Business and ended up doing information systems.

SPEAKER_04: 20:12

MARK MIRCHANDANI-

SPEAKER_00: 20:13

Oh, cool. MARK MIRCHANDANI- So tech and business, where I thought I could be a part of what I saw happening in the world, this transformation of everything going online. MARK MIRCHANDANI- So you were right. Just want to clarify, that was the right decision. MARK MIRCHANDANI- It absolutely was. And I loved it, too. And that was equally as important.

SPEAKER_01: 20:25

So what kind of music originally?

SPEAKER_00: 20:27

I just have to hear that. MARK MIRCHANDANI- I

SPEAKER_02: 20:30

was going to say clarinet. Trombone.

SPEAKER_00: 20:30

Trombone, all right. MARK MIRCHANDANI- Brass? I didn't pick you as a brass player. OK, I see. I still have it. I'm not, you know. Now when I bring it up to lifts, my lifts swell up because I'm not in practice anymore. But what

SPEAKER_01: 20:40

a great background. I mean, we see a lot of that actually in a number of students in MSM. I think we have a number already who came from a music background because it's such an interesting way to think, right? To learn to think.

SPEAKER_00: 20:51

So when I was in music, though, an interesting part of that was I taught. I taught middle schoolers lessons, basically. And that's where I kind of got the teaching bug. And I thought, hey, this is actually one of the most fun things, most rewarding things I do. I get to really change these kids' lives in a key way. And that kind of stuck with me. Even though I went in a different direction professionally then, and you kind of went more into the techie side and ended up, I was basically a BI developer. I would develop online reports and data reports for a marketing company when I graduated. I always thought, how can I be a little more people focused. And that's when I started to think of grad school and I realized, hey, there is a path you can take where you can be more people focused but still have this discipline focus. This techie business discipline focus. And I went on and got a PhD and really found my true passion and everything that kind of came together there.

SPEAKER_03: 21:42

Nice, I love it. Was there the fear between switching from trombone to what you're going into now? I can't imagine saying, I don't have a computer, I should go into high tech. How'd you get past that fear?

SPEAKER_00: 21:52

Really, I had to dive in and see that I could do it, right? And I had to be committed, right? If I had just done it lightly, it wouldn't have happened. But I wanted it to happen. I gave it 100%, and I realized I could be successful. Interestingly enough, that's not that unusual of a transition. There aren't that many music people. But once I did that, I started to read about it, and people told me about it. The type of thinking you do with music and reading music and music theory is actually very similar. The type of thinking you do in a technical environment, computer environment. Yep. So that transition is not that challenging.

SPEAKER_03: 22:24

MARK MANDELBAUGH, JR.:

UNKNOWN: 0:00

:

SPEAKER_03: 22:25

First off, Alex is an actual musician. So my audio engineer is the same thing. And he is a musician in that place. MARK MIRCHANDANI, JR.:

UNKNOWN: 0:00

:

SPEAKER_03: 22:30

And a nerd. MARK MIRCHANDANI, JR.:

UNKNOWN: 0:00

:

SPEAKER_03: 22:31

And a giant tech nerd. And then we also have my brother-in-law. He's at the music school here right now. He's probably still in bed, though. So we're going to let him sleep. But it's the same thing for him. He actually interns with us. And from the business side and from the system side, zero issues picking up, because it's the same kind of thought process.

SPEAKER_00: 22:46

MARK MIRCHANDANI, JR.:

UNKNOWN: 0:00

:

SPEAKER_00: 22:46

So it turns out it's a great base training area, right? I would recommend it to anyone. Maybe not as a final career outcome, But, you know, as a part of who you are in your training and your way of thinking, it certainly helped me succeed.

SPEAKER_01: 22:57

Phenomenal. And then tell us a little bit about like kind of what you're into now, like what your research, just what your areas of interest are.

SPEAKER_00: 23:04

Yeah, so research-wise, that's another unexpected twist that I took. So I was a more techie person going into my PhD. I had done data analysis and really creating visual reports for executives. But in my PhD, I saw another opportunity to become people-focused in another way. So there was a professor that I had the opportunity to work with that focused on the behavioral part of systems. So really understanding what people's challenges are with using technology in business, how systems can be better aligned with people and meet people those needs, and I bought in. I thought this was really interesting. It's a mix of psychology, communication, sociology, and I embraced it. It was another completely new area to me. but I love that people focus. So I stumbled into that, the initial area I focused on was deception in online work centers. Trying to understand when people deceive more, when they're working online or working in systems. How they lie, how that might be detectable in communication. It's more prevalent, it is harder to detect, but there are ways to detect it. So there's elements of speech, elements of behavior that

SPEAKER_03: 24:13

are detectable.

SPEAKER_00: 24:16

Most people are untrained, so that's the good news. Or the bad news, actually. Right. It's really

SPEAKER_01: 24:20

interesting, though, and it's interesting from the point of view of trying to make sure that everybody's getting the information they need. Oh, yeah. Yeah, really interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 24:29

Yeah. Darby, is there anything else you want to

SPEAKER_01: 24:31

hit on? Just a quick, for PassionWorks Studios, just a great place. We had a great experience there, but they've also taught us how to be part of Athens, which is really neat. So it's a place that grad students and undergrads can come back to and kind of just, you always feel like you're a part of Athens when you're there, so I think that that's a really nice aspect. We're extremely excited to have this time here with Dr. Gabe Giordano, and we're excited to have his leadership in the College of Business grad programs. We're doing a lot of great things, and Gabe is leading us forward in a lot of unique, interesting, innovative ways in a time where the landscape's changing. He's got us all changing right with it, which is a really good, just really good sign, I think, of that we're a college for today, but we're a college for tomorrow. So we'll just keep watching to see what's next. So I want to thank you for being our guest and Nick Winneberg for hosting. And again, we're here at the Leadership Lounge in the Robert D. Walter Center for Strategic Leadership, led by Jen Traxler. And I hope you enjoyed this episode and we will see you next time.